Since your battery problem with the eNiro I fitted a monitor to our eSoul. Since then we had a 12v battery failure which was recorded and viewable as a graph on the monitor. I booked the car in to my Kia agent. They had the car for a week and even with a copy of the graph showing the overnight discharge of the battery to 9v they still couldn't diagnose the problem. This is despite many others with Kias and Hyundais having a similar problem. The car was outside the one year free breakdown cover. They would not supply a courtesy car. Luckily our other car (a Tesla as it happens) was available to avoid the need for a hire car. Kia will only provide a courtesy car if they have to repair a diagnosed fault. Not good. When I took the Tesla in to have a minor connectivity issue addressed they automatically provided a Model S as a courtesy car. Tesla may not have a large dealer network but did better than an OEM in this case. Hyundai/Kia need to get this sorted out.
Everything in an EV, except for the motors and the V2L, is powered by the 12 volt battery. There are several good reasons for this, but the best is that all vehicle electric parts are already 12v and it would be stupid to use any other voltage. The 12v battery will always have some draw, even when the vehicle is turned off - the alarm for example - so we shouldn't be surprised. The Ioniq 5 problem will be a stupid software error which, once located, will be easily fixed. As a former software developer for safety critical systems, I will reiterate my usual complaint that today's developers are lazy and don't write defensive software.
A lot of software developers fundamentally aren’t taking the time to understand the system they’re writing for. An automotive mechanical or electrical engineer won’t be allowed to touch development unless they know how a car basically works. Software developers can start at anytime.
i have ionic 5 project 45 my car was flat 3 days running there is a fault on charging flap of the car so when you charge the main battery the charging flap flattens 12v battery after8 days still waiting for replacement parts to rectify fault.
All this makes a good case for a 12V circuit but NOT for a 12V battery: these are not the same. Why not use an always on stepdown transformer? an always on transformer coupled with a supercapacitor? an always on transformer coupled with a small non removable Li battery ? There are various ways a 12V circuit can be reliably fed power (with all sorts of safety backups) but all of them imply keeping a part of 800V circuit power up all the time. If engineers are not doing it now... are they worried about circuits? the controller and 12V transformer cannot be separately powered and they a re worried about reliability? DO not know why but the decision is beyond a simple thinking "12V circuits need 12V battery".
@@sashkashurik I doubt there are any vehicle design exerts here, but if there are then feel free to correct me. It is my belief that the high voltage battery and associated systems need to be completely disconnected for shipping or vehicle maintenance. No EV that I have seen comes with a big power switch; they all use electronic switching, and the separate 12v system allows for this.
You should attach the ground first because if you attach the positive first if the negative lead is floating around bumping into the chassis it'll complete the circuit and you might get sparks/etc (if there are any capacitors/inductors in whatever you're hooking up). Hooking up the ground first means that if the positive bumps into the chassis nothing will happen.
Another great video, Andrew- very interesting. I have one of those 12 Volt USB chargers plugged in that also displays the 12 Volt battery voltage. It's usually around 14.8V when the car is on.
Hyundai seem to have had a real issue the dead 12 volt batteries running flat in EVs. I myself in my '19 Kona EV have had to replace the 12-volt battery after the first 12 months of ownership however after reading so many others with the same problem across the internet I decided to switch the lead acid technology for a lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) replacement and I have had no problems with that battery or anything else related to the 12-volt system since. The battery was 50% more expensive but should last 4 times as long. Even if I do flatten the battery, it won't care and won't be damaged such as a lead acid technology would and I have not had this situation arise anyway. Best decision I've made regarding boys I've added to the car over the year. BMS is rated to 50A continuous which is plenty. The funny part is when I take the vehicle into the dealership for its yearly services they tell me that the 12v battery fails the load test naturally because the BMS simply cuts out when they try and run too much current from the battery.
Depending which chart you read, 12.5v is considered to be about 90% full and 12.65 or 12.7v is considered to be full, so I wouldn't worry too much. This would be resting voltage with no load attached, so the fact it's reading that with a slight load on it is even better. (There will always be a Voltage drop depending on how big the load is)
The reason behind the 12 volt battery is when stopped and parked with engine off the big battery is disconnect. In order to reconnect you would either have a big switch that you’d have to turn on or a relay switch and that requires 12 volts to operate. That’s the main reason for the 12 volt battery and the reason why nothing works when it’s dead. I notice that Tesla are now in some of their cars fitting a 12 volt lithium battery, I think that’s the way most companies will go because you can drain a lithium and recharge without damage but lead acid is damaged if drained below 55 % of its capacity.
You can get smarter BMS systems too that will drain to 20% then shut off early. To use that last bit of capacity you need to press a button on the battery. The idea is if you've left a light on or something then accidentally drained the 12V battery it's not fully drained and still has enough juice to start your car, no jumper cables required.
"because you can drain a lithium and recharge without damage" - no you cannot a 12v Li battery is permanently damaged if drained below safe voltage. It actually is a much more complex tech than acid and requires a BMS with autoshutoff and so on BUT it has a greater capacity for the same size.
Excellent video. I already have a battery booster pack (stored in the frunk), but have now ordered a monitor from Amazon. One question occurred to me though: What sort of current does the monitor itself draw and would this cause any significant battery drain if the car is parked up for a while, such as in an airport car park while I'm off sunning myself.
Also thanks from me for this update on the 12V battery problem. I hadn’t expect that you would experience this problem again with the Ionic 5 as Hyundai / Kia would learn from this problem on the e-Niro! I ordered the battery monitor just now for my e-Niro although I have no battery problems (yet)……
I have noted on your channel before about the 12V lead acid battery... 1) you only want 12V behind the dash board - 400v or 800V in you dashboard to run the systems would be "unwise". 2) Yes, using standard tools that run on 12V is much cheaper 3) Isolation : the traction battery is only connected to the motors and inverter - and isolated by a large solenoid which keeps the wiring simple and away from anything, and fully waterproof. 4) When off the traction battery is off and isolated - you should hear a clunk when you turn on/off the battery. This is a safety issue, but you need power to run the alarm and listen to the "key", hence you need a supply to run these systems on the car when the car is turned off. This is no different from an ICE car - see point (7) 5) Why lead acid : because it is the best tool for the job, and no, Tesla are not changing it, and Musk has said they wont use traditional Li battery for this. The 12V system undergoes many charge cycles in any car, either ICE or EV, and it is the charge cycle process that kills Li technology batteries - usually limited to 5000-10000 cycles, and the 12V system might undergo 10 or more cycles of charge/discharge depending on the draw current and the alternator/inverter supply current a day when you are using your car, even maybe 100 on a long drive. This would quickly kill a Li battery and people that have tried this often kill the battery in 3-6 months. A lead acid battery under proper conditions should last between 2-5 years, and I have only ever changed 1 battery and I keep cars for a long time - and have had a Tesla for 2 years and not changed the battery. The problem is poor design of software and the car manufacture. 6) Hyundai,Kia and VW all had 12V battery problems because they did not design their software properly resulting in the battery failure. Simple. We all know that we should drive an ICE car every couple of weeks for the same reason, but in an EV we have the option for the system to top up the battery - and car companies that did not do this properly are negligent . 7) Has the problem got worse ? Yes, because we want our cars to welcome us, cos we want better alarms, because we want more toys. The old leaf never had problems, because it had no toys, so like an old ICE car it did not use the battery much. In fact, if you don't have a car alarm the drain the 12V battery is likely to be negligible. We will see the same problems in modern ICE cars too as they will have lots of new toys that were developed from the EV world, and some of these toys will be run when the car is "off". 8) Traditional manufactures are not used to using "deep cycle" batteries, ICE cars use "high discharge batteries". It is likely that they have not got a proper supply of deep cycle batteries and it is even possible they are using ICE batteries (designed for starter motors) which really hate being discharged too much.
Very good explanations. Well done. Someone should produce an OBD2 dongle with an on off switch via the app. All that data is then available if you turn it on via the app, but you can turn it off when not driving and not doing investigations.
What's the difference? This uses Bluetooth, so it uses power. Also, if you switch a Bluetooth device off, (remove power) how would you switch it on again if it's not broadcasting/ receiving.....because it has no power?
@@rogerstarkey5390 Good point. Can it run in a minimal power state that just keeps enough going to start back up when signalled.? The notion is that the problem of having OBD2 connected is the power drain is an issue , is there a way around that ? Perhaps the answer means a switch on the device itself that avoid having to unplug replug ???The battery monitor clearly also is draining some power from the battery, an OBD2 gives the same info and more so why have two different devices?
@@rogerstarkey5390 it actually uses Bluetooth LE (Low Energy). The current the whole logger consumes is just 1 mA! That is way less than what the natural internal self discharge rate of the battery is. So it has literally negligible effect on anything. A 45Ah battery could theoretically power this logger continuously for 45000 hours on one charge! (>5 years!). Standard Bluetooth etc consumes much more power. Using an OBD dongle/app is no use at all for this kind of battery continuous monitoring and 24/7/365 data logging. These BM2 devices are ace. There is nothing better for the purpose. I can check mine anytime from inside the house. Total peace of mind.
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 in NHTSA Investigation over Power Loss The safety agency has added the Kia EV6 after 11 complaints with some describing a 'loud pop noise' and loss of power. There have been 30 customer complaints about the Hyundai Ioniq 5. BY JACK FITZGERALD UPDATED: JUL 10, 2023
Ioniq 5 owner here. Got my first suspected 12v issue today, only 6 months old, went for a drive for 40 mins before. Returned to vehicle and screens etc came on, but wouldn't move out of P or N, with red battery icon on display (red mean bad? or is that just the colour). Eventually AA turned up, battery was reading 12V fine, and the car started (sat with it off while we waited). Quite frustrating but we got out. Very strange. Will keep an eye on this situation thanks to your videos. Cheers.
Andrew, just a note, the monitor is straight across the battery so if a short cut appears then may be some serious damage under the bonnet, so should it not be fused?, as for your booster if you battery dies and you find it hard to enter to jump start the battery how about installing a permanent supply say under the charger flap, so if you carnt get info the car then open the charge port and plug you booster in and this may give you enough power to open the door and switch on the car
Do you know what would happen to that spanner or possibly battery if you unfortunately touched the vehicle ground whilst undoing the power connection? You should always undo the vehicle ground and leave disconnected before touching the power lead (I'm saying power instead of positive for those cases where the vehicle has a positive earth/vehicle frame connection). The battery or spanner could explode!
The App comparison isn't actually like for like. My mobile phone will tell me which app is using excessive power draw BUT only because each app is a discrete unit, and the phone's operating system is set up to do this (based on years of allowing third party apps and therefore they DISCOVERED that the O/S actually NEEDED to monitor power usages). Of course you wouldn't want the EV user to shut down any of the car's internal apps, but as a car manufacturer this should be one of your aims! I watched a really interesting YT video of the 1969 moon landings and even that operating system had a power usage monitoring system built in! IIRC, On descent ground control figures out what was causing the power drain and told the crew to disable it. How far we've come! (or should that be, how far have we reversed?)
Another really informative video Andrew, I'm learning so much from you. Confession: I think I was one of the comedians who teased you about leaving the battery starter in the boot.😁 Good to know it was a sods law job, typical eh?!🙄 It is pretty rubbish that an oem who has actually made some really decent, desirable evs has let this irritating little flaw persist. Uck... Hope you're both wrapped up doing the school run, weather is slapping loads of water down! 💦 💦 💦
Our second Kia Soul EV 12v battery has gone dead after just 4 months! However this time the monitor recorded multiple voltage spikes between 7v and 19v. This might be a clue as to what is going on. These voltage levels are certainly harmful to 12v lead acid batteries. Our car is going back to the dealer at the end of the month with all this info. To get 19v spikes the power must somehow be coming from the traction battery.
Your monitor shows unusually high voltage drop during a single day. I have the same monitor in my Prius V and I have O.02V - 0.08V drop in 24 hours on days when I don't touch the car and see no voltage events. Your parked car is obviously using the battery quite a lot.
The 12v battery is near to dead on our 2 year old ID.3. I was wondering if one of those trickle solar panel chargers would be sufficient to keep the 12v battery healthy. We don't use the car every day so I anticipate this problem recurring. Alternatively I just get an AA replacement with 5 year warranty and let fate make it's own mind up ...
I've had this issue on my 2020 Hyundai Kona EV too, although I think that was caused initially by the boot not properly closing and leaving the light on in the boot which drained the 12v battery. This happened a few times and then the 12v battery developed a fault (as they don't like to be left at 0% charge). Hopefully, it won't reoccur... but the Hyundai dealership near me was fairly clueless about this. We're much better at making sure the boot is completely closed (and the catch seems to have eased a bit over a few years so it works a bit better).
I had similar problem with my second hand 2015 VW e-Up!, i used the battery monitor showed in the video, was very useful, i concluded that the 12v battery was to little and checked the 12v battery support plate, as i expected, there was a second screw hole for a bigger (longer) battery. This mainly for cold climates regions where the temperature has bigger impact on cars (engine starter for ICE version, electric pre heating until engine is hot enough to supply heat to the cabin) I upgraded from an original 40Ah to a 55Ah (Varta with silver dropping tech 👍🏻✅) since then never had any problem again.
I would have flipped the positive spade terminal 180 degrees so that only the relatively thin and flexible wire would have to exit the battery terminal cover rather than the large, solid red hunk of plastic. It looked like there was plenty of wire to accommodate that.
Maybe Hyundai should alter the 12v charging parameters from Start 12.6 volts, stop 13.0 volts To Start 12.8 volts, stop 13.2 volts. . That extra 0.2 volts would give more "wiggle room" if there's another load on the battery. . Maybe a "panic" setting, where if it gets to within 0.3 volts of its "dead" level, it defaults to a "high charge" mode from the main pack, assuming that pack has more than...... 5% charge? Also, a software switch which detects if that mode activates multiple times in a certain period 3 times in a week? Then displays an alarm on boot-up. All things which should be easy to accomplish.
The car already monitors the 12V battery, it’s kind of insane you have to add a completely aftermarket system to actually get the information that’s already in the vehicle. That’s exactly what’s wrong with todays cars where customers are locked out of the systems and we have no right to repair.
Google the model number of this monitor because there are reports that the associated software not only will put an excessive data load but also drain your phone battery. They also say that the s/w reaps personal information that it does not really need. Privacy concerns!! Too bad because it looks like a nice simple technical solution.
You alarm system you door locking system is in constant use it send signals to you keys on a regular basis you monitoring system are on when your car is sat locked it all draws on the 12v that whyvwhen you go on holidays and park carcat Airport for two weeks make sure you have 50% battery charge as the car will be using energy whilst sat and so 12v will,draw its charge from main battery unlike ice thec12v battery in a bev hev or phev is much smaller insize so it does not have the capacity to sit for several days or weeks.
I was always under the impression that perhaps you really notice a bad 12v with an ice car first since it's got to have enough power to crank the engine to start it whereas with an ev you don't get or need such a huge reserve to start the vehicle so it would be much more quickly apparent with an ice car?
Vehicle engineering has moved at a snails pace with little to no innovation. You can build the same vehicle 25 years ago. It’s very stupid that it cannot warn about the battery health so at least the driver can prevent being stranded. I’ve driven a vehicle for decades that never left me stranded..
Mr till we have found the problem. There was an unapproved electrical thing across your battery draining the power. We have removed it and you should be ok from now.
Many of these issues could be solved via software update. If the car knows where the 12V battery is, the car can choose to top it up and manage it for you. You shouldn't need to know to leave the car "on" when you're in the car to prevent the 12V from going down.
I'm confused, firstly my monitor seems to be the same as yours but I can't get a long term reading unless I leave my phone within bluetooth range? Is there a better way? Secondly, my Ioniq 5 keeps dieing, I got a battery charger but it shows as almost full on the charger and also on the battery monitor?! Yet the car does not start until jumped by the charger. This is very odd. It's as if the car thinks the battery is bad or without charge when it isn't 🤦. Hyundai are not helping at all with this.
In theory it should come up with “synchronising” when you go to the app and then download the latest month(?) worth of data? That’s shocking Hyundai aren’t helping you. Clearly there’s a fault somewhere and they should honour the warranty. 😔
One of the first things I did when I got my EV (a 2016 Kia Soul EV+) was replace the 12V lead-acid battery with a LiFEPo 12V battery (actually two 20AH 12V ones in parallel) which behave much better than the lead acid batteries in pretty much every way.
@timemachine194 Not sure if the Soul itself does (I would say yes), but the LiFEPo4 batteries do. The built in BMS does a lot in protecting from under and over voltage and other problems. Here's the info page for the battery I got (ReLion RB20): relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb20#:~:text=ELECTRICAL%20SPECIFICATIONS If anyone is interested, here's what my parallel setup looks like: photos.app.goo.gl/UV5WPdsJqnzRVQnZ8 (Remember to connect + to + and - to -, *NOT* + to - and - to +, otherwise you will have a 24V setup that will likely fry your system!)
@timemachine194 I'm sure they chose that cutoff limit after much testing. All I can say is that I've had no problems whatsoever with it. My guess is that the Soul's own BMS limits voltage to the 12V battery to well under 15V anyways. I haven't monitored incoming voltage with the system live, but I might do that in the near future just to see where it likes to hover.
@timemachine194 There are two things, I feel, that also work in the 12V battery's favor when it comes to BEVs. First, there are no, like you say, hard demands on the battery at all. Even the power required to engage the traction battery is far lower than what's needed to engage a starter. But even more importantly, I feel, the amount of heat that is under the hood where the battery is located is SO much lower and I definitely feel that this not only helps the longevity of the 12V, but of so many of the other components in there too. I've driven mine for well over an hour and then popped the hood to put washer fluid in and it's barely warm in there, whereas with my old ICE cars if I drive it more than about 10 minutes and do the same it is like an oven in there. A quick mention on this note: I recently found out that Toyota puts the starter for their Tacoma (or Tundra?) truck *INSIDE* the engine block, under the intake manifold. I can't think of a worse place to put that. I'm guessing it gets a tad warm in there, not to mention the cost of replacing the starter since you have to remove the whole intake too. I guess it helps ground clearance? Gives it a cleaner look?
@timemachine194 Oh, okay. When I bought the battery I was worried that it would require a special charger or some alteration be made to charge correctly, but when I read that it had its own built in BMS and that it can be used in "any application that a lead acid battery can be used" I decided to give it a shot and it's worked like a charm so far.
Happy with my BM2. I have a different usage pattern due to 2 dashcams with security function on. My P45 has an even more rapid drop off than yours on the 12v and tops up more frequently. It all seems to work, so why do people get a flat battery as it seems to top up as intended?? All cars in this price bracket should be a lithium not lead acid 12v, even my motorbike has one…. My only beef with the BM2 is the battery consumption on my phone when constantly monitoring.
Many thanks for the video. Just wanted to let you know that (obviously) same thing happened to me with my Ioniq 5 (battery dead), so I bought the potable charger and the battery monitor (and a 10mm spanner!). I charged and stored the charger in the frunk, but I had trouble fitting the battery monitor to the battery. I could loosen the live (red) nut, but it just loosened the whole fitting and the nut did not move up the bolt! Also, it is very tricky loosening the neutral (black) nut, so in the end I bought some additional nuts - they are M6 nuts - and attached it using them. It was much easier. I tried to buy the kit from Amazon using your reference, but I have no idea if it worked. One final minor note: I have the 2021 model (ordered in August '21, delivered Easter '22) and my Bluelink app does not have a Batter Status setting on the page that you show.
Hey Andrew, thank you for this video and the helpful links. Cheers from Germany. Another topic: I read a lot about the HDA not working properly in the Ioniq 5, some reported wobbling effects (car repeatedly steering left right) when using it, other even mentioned life threatening situations (car was driving dangerously close towards oncoming traffic). I currently own a very old ICE car which I intent to replace with the Ioniq 5. So all those fancy assistance systems are new to me and I was pretty excited to get my hands on them. But now I wonder if they are actually save to use? Do you use any of the assistance features or are they just marketing bait?
Thanks for the great video Andrew. Have you by any chance taken a closer look at how Bluelink app usage affects the 12v? If you open the app, presumably the car goes into "accessory" mode - but for how long until it goes to sleep again? Definitely need to keep away from the app at night :)
Just one point worth mentioning. I have been speaking to a Hyundai tech and he insists that the black negative side of a BM2 bluetooth monitor should be attached to a nearby chassis point and not directly to the negative post of the 12v battery. It seems that in the Ioniq 5 there is an additional sensor on the car's lead on the terminal and adding an unexpected bit of hardware there can confuse it and send incorrect messages to the car's computers.
They could just take electricity from the main battery, step it down to 12 v, and get rid of the 12 volt battery, and it would save complexity and wouldn't really change energy consumption. It is so stupid to include a part that is unnecessary and a failure point and is actually fairly expensive. It is so stupid.
Hi Andrew, I installed one tonight and my iPhone immediately blocked the website the BM2 app uses. iPhone has Norton Security installed.. think the app is passing location data back to central servers .. have blocked location tracking and will remove it at weekend and return to Amazon. Pity cos it worked well !
Argh - thanks for letting me know. Sorry for the hassle. I wonder if alternatives exist?! I’ll have a look. Update: There's an article about it here: doubleagent.net/that-battery-monitor-what-happened-after-the-post/ I've now added a note on my website about it, advising people against getting it (unless they don't care about their location data being sent to servers in China).
You could start an EV on any 12v battery. Those jump start packs are designed for running the high amp draw of a starter motor. An EV will never draw more than a few amps to start. In theory 8 AA batteries in one of those 12v cases would be enough.
After my 12 volt failed fully today, someone at hyundai just told me that putting a battery monitor on could invalidate my warranty.. I was also told that (surprise to me) that replacing the 12 Volt myself, even with a genuine hyundai battery, could also invalidate my warranty. I was told I had to call breakdown and get the car towed from my drive to the hyundai service centre and only then could they swap the battery without a two week lead time. I was not allowed to jump start the car and drive it to them. I was told "that is how the whole car industry does it". Can't deny this has made me somewhat rethink my plan to upgrade from a kona to a ioniq 6.
I've not heard of many people changing it, but I'd probably give a lithium one a go. www.ioniqforum.com/threads/ioniq-5-lithium-12v-lifepo4-battery-replacement-group-47-for-existing-lead-acid.42304/ Funnily enough, an American company recently contacted me to ask if I'd be interested in reviewing their new LFP 12V but I have no IONIQ 5 to try it in! Have a look here: www.ohmmu.com/ev-hybrid-shop It's extremely expensive though!
One issue I have seen is that the 12V battery is frequently the same one used by the brands ICE options. I had major issues with the 12V battery on my hybrid as it was designed for starting an engine, but it never saw a starting load. These 12V batteries should be deep cycle with proper battery management. They will last much longer than the starting batteries I have seen.
Not a stupid question at all! You can’t lock the car when it’s in Utility Mode. I’ve had no issues with the 12V after the dealer did a BMS update by the way. I need to do an update video!
Hi, great information and I'm sure will come in handy as I'm about to collect my 2021 Ioniq 5 with 9000 miles. We're about to go on holiday, driving 268 to Southampton and leaving the car there for 7days, do I just turn the car off and leave it or do I put it into utility mode? I plan on parking the car with at least 50% charge. It's the 73kwh premium if that makes a difference. Thanks for your help.
@@MrEV Hi and thanks for your reply, yeah I've just ordered one and the battery monitor although I'm due to pick the car up tomorrow evening but when I test drove it the other day I linked the BlueLink to my mobile, today at 6.45pm it said that charging had started, by 6.50pm it said that charging had reached the set level and stopped, even though it wasn't anywhere near the set level of 80%, I'm guessing it's having the charging problem of over heating 🙄
Hey Andrew, have you tried buying an inverter or making one with a 1 amp charger in series to a miliamp charger? You can charge a 12 volt with Epson salt and distilled water for 48 hours. It should last a year on Ice and charge back the amps to 70 %, you can do this up to 3x or roughly for 3 years.
Mr EV, thank you for this video and for the helpful links. Please keep the Good Work going. I ordered IONIQ 5 MY23 ; which is arriving in the UK end of February 2023. I hope Hyundai have updated ALL the software etc. However, I will purchase BM2 battery monitor. It's look like 12 volt battery dose lots of things in Ioniq 5. I think that 77 kWh main battery supports only the Driving Distance. I have a different question for you Andrew, which is about a immobiliser. Do you think, fitting a GHOST 2 immobiliser will void the Hyundai Warranty ? please let me know. Thank you in advance. ( GHOST 2 distributor is AutoWatch UK )
Please tell me which brand to buy. The one you shoe is on Amazon @ £39.99 and there are others @ a lot less. Is the one you show worth the extra? Appreciate your help.
I think there are a few that are virtually the same, just with different packaging. I've not tested them so I can't say for sure though, sorry! If you find one that goes on the battery as this does, supports Bluetooth 4.0, and has an app - then I'm sure it'll be fine. I just find it's the app aspect of this that makes it so good. Other 12V monitors that plug into the cigarette lighter are ok, but you have to get in the car to see the voltage which makes them less useful I think.
Are Hyundai/KIA STILL having 12V problems??? Soul, Classic Ioniq, Kona, Niro, all of them had 12V problems, and Hyundai knows this very, very well! Most owners in cold climates have been left stranded at one time or another because of this. In the EV capital, Oslo, Norway, Hyundai have a service car constantly driving around town just to restart EVs stranded from bad 12V. It is shocking to hear it is still an issue with the next gen. flagship car!
The 12 Volt battery runs almost everything except for the main traction motor and the AirCon. Our EV runs the infotainment screen, radio, daytime running lights, bluetooth, if i, etc at all times that the car is being used. Some of those systems never seem to be turned off. For instance, how does the car detect your proximity with the key? It's because the system is always running. It's very easy to draw, let's say, 100 mA (0.1 Amps) with those devices. A 50 Ah battery which is fully charged, and actually capable of delivering the claimed power, will be drained completely within 21 days, if the car is not in use. Unless you're running that battery saver mode. In Winter, the Lead/acid battery will have reduced capacity, and as it ages it's capacity also reduces. So after a year of use, and if the car isn't used almost every day, it's common for that 50 Ah battery to have a capacity of 20 Ah or less. In Winter, even in England, the capacity can be halved again very easily. So that might leave a true capacity of 10 Ah or less in cold weather. That assumed 0.1 Amp power draw will therefore flatten the battery completely after about 4 days of standing idle. Incidentally, how much current does that battery monitor draw? That current adds a little more to the drain of the battery.
When we charge the high voltage battery through AC or DC Charger, does it charge the 12v battery? Meaning we can safely use the air con and radio inside the car while we wait
That's a really good question and I don't know the answer definitively, but I'm 99% positive the IONIQ 5 does. The safest thing to do is just have the car on in ready mode (foot on brake, press power button) when you're charging. I'd be surprised if any EV depletes the 12v while it's being charged to be honest. If anyone knowledgeable reads this, please chime in with an answer!
Country Living! You may be a victim of your environment, Andrew. How far is the nearest cell tower? Apart from winter mode monitoring main battery pack temperature, I couldn't figure out why you are steadily drawing current. Then you said it: "Everytime you acces the app it will use the 12 V battery." But not just when using the app: The car must ping the LTE | 4G tower and set things like broadcast power constantly. How is your cell signal strength? Just a thought. Anyway, thank you for all the gadgets. Shouldn't be necessary as you say, but fun nonetheless. You are the Q branch of the IoniQ 5. :)
Something else you can do with a smart phone! Joking aside, it’s likely that the charging set up in your Hyundai is set up to manage a lead acid battery properly, using the “float charging” technique. It’s a compromise between keeping it charged up, but without too much chemical damage to it’s plates, thus extending it’s life cycle. If it operates as a float charger, you’d expect the voltage to be lower for a while, then back up to a charging value when it switches on. After all, in most normal cars there is always some demand on the 12V, such as the alarm system, so they do run down every day, and are charged up intermittently in normal use I’ve got an old mains powered gadget that does provide a float mode, with a couple of settings - slow, and fast, and an auto ‘float’ mode, so when it’s left on for a while, it will automatically avoid overcooking it. Essentially, in that mode it does not provide a ‘trickle charge’, but it is intermittent.
I have watched a couple of your videos re BM2 - Fantastic thanks. I have one fitted to my KUGA. My battery has gone down to 3.5v twice!!! Yuk" My for dealer are really helpfut and will be relacinf the battery an checking the software... HOWEVER, I would very much like to video record the BM2 as you have - that would give me more tech stuff and further evidence for what is happening to my battery system. Is it possible for you to show how to do live vudeos of the BM2 data
It's fairly simple to record your phone's screen. Here are instructions for you: Android: support.google.com/android/answer/9075928?hl=en-GB iPhone: support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207935
Thanks a million - I will give it ago shortly... Another issue: Pluigged inyo the hybrid socker charged both Hybrid battery and the 12v bat. 6 hours later, BM2 says battery low... passenger door not working... @@MrEV
Bluetooth is kinda "meh" due to its short range.. and god beware if you have your car in a garage. Would probably make more sense to have one that does Wifi, or makes noise when battery gets too low. But the main fix is to hope Hyundai pushes a software fix. Also, the vent as an indicator is strange.. normally it's supposed to open only when battery temperature adjustment (either heating or cooling) is active, which should not be necessary during 12V battery recharging, as that's such an insignificant load on the HV battery. Was it plugged in to your EVSE at that moment? Then it might need to cool the battery at least a bit..
I too have had several problems with the 12V battery of my EV. Two battery failures on our Renault ZOE within 3 years, and the first battery failure on our 2.5 year old Hyundai Kona EV. According to the workshop foreman at my car dealership, Hyundai has massive problems with the quality of the supplier's batteries. The Honda dealership stocks a large number of 12V batteries because the batteries of all cars fail very frequently. Unfortunately, the battery voltage is not a reliable indicator of whether the battery is still healthy. It's the internal resistance. 12.6V is the physical no-load voltage of the battery when fully charged. 14.4V is the recommended charging voltage at 25° battery temperature. Normally, the 12V batteries of EVs are significantly less stressed than in cars with internal combustion engines. Why they still fail so often is a mystery.
This really shouldn't be necessary in a vehicle as expensive as IONIQ 5. Just part of the reason I won't ever purchase another Hyundai group EV in future. Poor quality parts, poor quality experience.
Andrew thank you for a really interesting video. I was viewing it because...... my Ioniq 5 battery died 4 days ago! The recovery guy said it was down to 4V but boosted it and it started fine and I've had no problem since. I had used a tyre pump 2 days before (while engine was running) and driven it after that, but no other use of the 12V that I can think of. Worth saying the temperature went down to -6° and below freezing for a couple of days, and car only had an 11% charge. So the problem is still there but my garage said "not a known issue". Cheers Peter
replacing a lead acid +12V battery with a Lithium Ion equivalent won't help if it there's phantom power draw on the +12V line and the car's own monitoring software doesn't notice the low voltage and automatically turn on the DC-DC converter to top it up. My hunch is that there's probably something going on when the charge flap is open but not charging because it's peak rate electricity. Are there lights in the charge flap?
I wonder if installing a deep cycle 12V battery is feasible, either AGM or standard. The car does not need cranking power. The OEM 12V is only 60 amp/hour I believe, not a lot.
Andrew, You do not say what the capacity (Ah) of the Ionic5 12v battery is. I think 12v batteries used on EVs are smaller capacity than ICE vehicles as they don't have to do high energy cranking. I see the the spec of the battery monitor says that it draws around 1.5mA itself so obviously just having it connected makes the situation very slightly worse although I guess/hope negligable.
No it's dropping as your car when parked is drawing from the 12v system to run back system alarm communication between car and you app etc so your car will draw down until the battery monitor get a 12.5v /12.6v reading then draws from the main battery and tops up. To around 14.5v This appears normal unless you keep a log as to times locking unlocking communication via app lights on etc then you can see the larger draw off from 12v b
Great video, thx. I’ve got the new Kia Niro EV and I managed to discharge my 12v twice now by remotely starting the climate control. Just installed the monitor to see what’s going on. Does your Ioniq discharge if you remotely start heating?
Congrats on getting the new Niro! I no longer have the IONIQ 5 unfortunately, but no, that didn't happen for me. I'd heard of other people having issues when using the app though. It was all fixed with a BMS update the dealer had to do, so maybe check with Kia to see if there's a known issue and whether an update will solve it?
I would like to replace the lead 12V battery with a li ion battery since i m away from home 5 month a year. Could you advise me the right 12V lithium battery that would fit the Ioniq 5?
It would be cool if they equipped ev cars with small solar cells on the roof that supplied trickle 12v to avoid just such faults. Just enough to power up the internal cpus and switches. It could check the onboard 12v utility battery and report battery faults on startup before it switches on the main battery pack to charge it. I'm a software and hardware engineer and thats what I'd do.
Hi all We have a 2021 Kia E Niro, delivered Nov 2020, and spotted a 12v battery drain in Jan '21 when on furlough for just a month and at this time only doing short trips to the shops and back. Now back at work and doing a 60 mile round trip 4 times a week have no problems with 12v drain ! Watched all your videos on UA-cam on this point and tend to think it's a issue with lot's of short journeys draining the " tiny " 12v battery as have had no problems with 12v drain now. Sorry but BEV's are brilliant in town,we live in London, but this short trip 12v battery drain must be a pain for some!
Because of this video I purchased the monitor and a capacitor based jump starter. I hope I never need them, but the peace of mind is worth it. The monitor was helpful, because it shows that the battery is being charged frequently. I have nothing to worry about. Maybe I will check the logs once per week to reinforce that all is good with the led acid battery. So the $25 cost was well worth it. As for the super expensive capacitor jump starter, it's a lot better than jumper cables or maintaining a battery jump starter. It will help someone someday.
Great video Andrew. I've just experienced the same issue with my 3 week old, 500 mile ionic 5. On charge overnight, dead in the morning. This is my fist ev so i had no idea what had happened until watching your 2 videos. Not impressed that this has happened without warning in a £40k+ brand new car!! What was the outcome of taking the car back to hyundai? Can't find the promised follow up video?
I just realized that you only have UK and US Amazon affiliate links listed. I would like to use your links but I am not from UK or US but Germany. If Brexit wouldn't have happened I could just use the UK link and not worry about it, but since UK is not part of the customs union anymore, this option is out. Is there a chance that you will add Amazon 'de' or 'fr' in the future?
Thanks. Although I don't yet have a BEV... I really wish the IONIC 5 was more widely available in the U.S. But- I wasn't aware of these Bluetooth devices. They will likely be handy even for ICE cars. I'm going to try one.
I have a 2017 Ioniq Hybrid. The hybrid classic Ioniqs were equipped with the lithium ion 12 volt batteries while the plug-in and EV versions were stuck with the lead acid. There were many reports of dead 12v batteries in the PIH and EV Ioniq forums. Don’t know why Hyundai has persisted with lead acid in their more electrified versions.
Since your battery problem with the eNiro I fitted a monitor to our eSoul. Since then we had a 12v battery failure which was recorded and viewable as a graph on the monitor. I booked the car in to my Kia agent. They had the car for a week and even with a copy of the graph showing the overnight discharge of the battery to 9v they still couldn't diagnose the problem. This is despite many others with Kias and Hyundais having a similar problem. The car was outside the one year free breakdown cover. They would not supply a courtesy car. Luckily our other car (a Tesla as it happens) was available to avoid the need for a hire car. Kia will only provide a courtesy car if they have to repair a diagnosed fault. Not good. When I took the Tesla in to have a minor connectivity issue addressed they automatically provided a Model S as a courtesy car. Tesla may not have a large dealer network but did better than an OEM in this case. Hyundai/Kia need to get this sorted out.
Everything in an EV, except for the motors and the V2L, is powered by the 12 volt battery. There are several good reasons for this, but the best is that all vehicle electric parts are already 12v and it would be stupid to use any other voltage. The 12v battery will always have some draw, even when the vehicle is turned off - the alarm for example - so we shouldn't be surprised. The Ioniq 5 problem will be a stupid software error which, once located, will be easily fixed. As a former software developer for safety critical systems, I will reiterate my usual complaint that today's developers are lazy and don't write defensive software.
Far better explained than my attempt!
A lot of software developers fundamentally aren’t taking the time to understand the system they’re writing for. An automotive mechanical or electrical engineer won’t be allowed to touch development unless they know how a car basically works. Software developers can start at anytime.
i have ionic 5 project 45 my car was flat 3 days running there is a fault on charging flap of the car so when you charge the main battery the charging flap flattens 12v battery after8 days still waiting for replacement parts to rectify fault.
All this makes a good case for a 12V circuit but NOT for a 12V battery: these are not the same. Why not use an always on stepdown transformer? an always on transformer coupled with a supercapacitor? an always on transformer coupled with a small non removable Li battery ? There are various ways a 12V circuit can be reliably fed power (with all sorts of safety backups) but all of them imply keeping a part of 800V circuit power up all the time. If engineers are not doing it now... are they worried about circuits? the controller and 12V transformer cannot be separately powered and they a re worried about reliability? DO not know why but the decision is beyond a simple thinking "12V circuits need 12V battery".
@@sashkashurik I doubt there are any vehicle design exerts here, but if there are then feel free to correct me. It is my belief that the high voltage battery and associated systems need to be completely disconnected for shipping or vehicle maintenance. No EV that I have seen comes with a big power switch; they all use electronic switching, and the separate 12v system allows for this.
You should attach the ground first because if you attach the positive first if the negative lead is floating around bumping into the chassis it'll complete the circuit and you might get sparks/etc (if there are any capacitors/inductors in whatever you're hooking up).
Hooking up the ground first means that if the positive bumps into the chassis nothing will happen.
Agreed. Pos off first, on last.
I have seen careless fools arc a battery with an overly long spanner too. On old cars it's usually OK but with the PlayStations that we now drive ...
Surely the car itself could monitor the 12v battery voltage and send a notification via Bluelink? I have a Kona electric so this issue concerns me.
That would be a great idea.
Another great video, Andrew- very interesting. I have one of those 12 Volt USB chargers plugged in that also displays the 12 Volt battery voltage. It's usually around 14.8V when the car is on.
Hyundai seem to have had a real issue the dead 12 volt batteries running flat in EVs. I myself in my '19 Kona EV have had to replace the 12-volt battery after the first 12 months of ownership however after reading so many others with the same problem across the internet I decided to switch the lead acid technology for a lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) replacement and I have had no problems with that battery or anything else related to the 12-volt system since. The battery was 50% more expensive but should last 4 times as long. Even if I do flatten the battery, it won't care and won't be damaged such as a lead acid technology would and I have not had this situation arise anyway. Best decision I've made regarding boys I've added to the car over the year. BMS is rated to 50A continuous which is plenty. The funny part is when I take the vehicle into the dealership for its yearly services they tell me that the 12v battery fails the load test naturally because the BMS simply cuts out when they try and run too much current from the battery.
Depending which chart you read, 12.5v is considered to be about 90% full and 12.65 or 12.7v is considered to be full, so I wouldn't worry too much. This would be resting voltage with no load attached, so the fact it's reading that with a slight load on it is even better. (There will always be a Voltage drop depending on how big the load is)
Such a high tech car with 800V system yet Hyundai forgot to think about design to keep 12v battery charged!
The worst junk thing hi ever see in my life not to good engineered thanks 🙏
The reason behind the 12 volt battery is when stopped and parked with engine off the big battery is disconnect. In order to reconnect you would either have a big switch that you’d have to turn on or a relay switch and that requires 12 volts to operate. That’s the main reason for the 12 volt battery and the reason why nothing works when it’s dead. I notice that Tesla are now in some of their cars fitting a 12 volt lithium battery, I think that’s the way most companies will go because you can drain a lithium and recharge without damage but lead acid is damaged if drained below 55 % of its capacity.
You can get smarter BMS systems too that will drain to 20% then shut off early. To use that last bit of capacity you need to press a button on the battery. The idea is if you've left a light on or something then accidentally drained the 12V battery it's not fully drained and still has enough juice to start your car, no jumper cables required.
"because you can drain a lithium and recharge without damage" - no you cannot a 12v Li battery is permanently damaged if drained below safe voltage. It actually is a much more complex tech than acid and requires a BMS with autoshutoff and so on BUT it has a greater capacity for the same size.
這是一篇 UA-cam 上的視頻內容，視頻介紹了在一輛 Hyundai IONIQ 5 上安裝並使用電池監視器。在之前的視頻中，主人公的 12 伏電池已經失效了，無法啟動汽車。在這個視頻中，他展示瞭如何使用電池監視器，這個小裝置可以通過藍牙連接手機，讓你隨時了解你的車輛 12 伏電池的狀況。文章還介紹了電池監視器的安裝和連接方法，並提到了 Hyundai 公司對他所面對的問題的回應。文章最後，作者表示自己會有更多的視頻發布，包括一次 2,000 英里的長途駕駛。
Excellent video. I already have a battery booster pack (stored in the frunk), but have now ordered a monitor from Amazon. One question occurred to me though: What sort of current does the monitor itself draw and would this cause any significant battery drain if the car is parked up for a while, such as in an airport car park while I'm off sunning myself.
It only uses 1mA so a pretty insignificant draw.
Also thanks from me for this update on the 12V battery problem. I hadn’t expect that you would experience this problem again with the Ionic 5 as Hyundai / Kia would learn from this problem on the e-Niro!
I ordered the battery monitor just now for my e-Niro although I have no battery problems (yet)……
I have noted on your channel before about the 12V lead acid battery...
1) you only want 12V behind the dash board - 400v or 800V in you dashboard to run the systems would be "unwise".
2) Yes, using standard tools that run on 12V is much cheaper
3) Isolation : the traction battery is only connected to the motors and inverter - and isolated by a large solenoid which keeps the wiring simple and away from anything, and fully waterproof.
4) When off the traction battery is off and isolated - you should hear a clunk when you turn on/off the battery. This is a safety issue, but you need power to run the alarm and listen to the "key", hence you need a supply to run these systems on the car when the car is turned off. This is no different from an ICE car - see point (7)
5) Why lead acid : because it is the best tool for the job, and no, Tesla are not changing it, and Musk has said they wont use traditional Li battery for this. The 12V system undergoes many charge cycles in any car, either ICE or EV, and it is the charge cycle process that kills Li technology batteries - usually limited to 5000-10000 cycles, and the 12V system might undergo 10 or more cycles of charge/discharge depending on the draw current and the alternator/inverter supply current a day when you are using your car, even maybe 100 on a long drive. This would quickly kill a Li battery and people that have tried this often kill the battery in 3-6 months. A lead acid battery under proper conditions should last between 2-5 years, and I have only ever changed 1 battery and I keep cars for a long time - and have had a Tesla for 2 years and not changed the battery. The problem is poor design of software and the car manufacture.
6) Hyundai,Kia and VW all had 12V battery problems because they did not design their software properly resulting in the battery failure. Simple. We all know that we should drive an ICE car every couple of weeks for the same reason, but in an EV we have the option for the system to top up the battery - and car companies that did not do this properly are negligent .
7) Has the problem got worse ? Yes, because we want our cars to welcome us, cos we want better alarms, because we want more toys. The old leaf never had problems, because it had no toys, so like an old ICE car it did not use the battery much. In fact, if you don't have a car alarm the drain the 12V battery is likely to be negligible. We will see the same problems in modern ICE cars too as they will have lots of new toys that were developed from the EV world, and some of these toys will be run when the car is "off".
8) Traditional manufactures are not used to using "deep cycle" batteries, ICE cars use "high discharge batteries". It is likely that they have not got a proper supply of deep cycle batteries and it is even possible they are using ICE batteries (designed for starter motors) which really hate being discharged too much.
Very good explanations. Well done. Someone should produce an OBD2 dongle with an on off switch via the app. All that data is then available if you turn it on via the app, but you can turn it off when not driving and not doing investigations.
What's the difference?
This uses Bluetooth, so it uses power.
Also, if you switch a Bluetooth device off, (remove power) how would you switch it on again if it's not broadcasting/ receiving.....because it has no power?
@@rogerstarkey5390 Good point. Can it run in a minimal power state that just keeps enough going to start back up when signalled.? The notion is that the problem of having OBD2 connected is the power drain is an issue , is there a way around that ? Perhaps the answer means a switch on the device itself that avoid having to unplug replug ???The battery monitor clearly also is draining some power from the battery, an OBD2 gives the same info and more so why have two different devices?
@@rogerstarkey5390 it actually uses Bluetooth LE (Low Energy). The current the whole logger consumes is just 1 mA! That is way less than what the natural internal self discharge rate of the battery is. So it has literally negligible effect on anything. A 45Ah battery could theoretically power this logger continuously for 45000 hours on one charge! (>5 years!). Standard Bluetooth etc consumes much more power. Using an OBD dongle/app is no use at all for this kind of battery continuous monitoring and 24/7/365 data logging. These BM2 devices are ace. There is nothing better for the purpose. I can check mine anytime from inside the house. Total peace of mind.
2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 in NHTSA Investigation over Power Loss
The safety agency has added the Kia EV6 after 11 complaints with some describing a 'loud pop noise' and loss of power. There have been 30 customer complaints about the Hyundai Ioniq 5.
BY JACK FITZGERALD UPDATED: JUL 10, 2023
Ioniq 5 owner here. Got my first suspected 12v issue today, only 6 months old, went for a drive for 40 mins before. Returned to vehicle and screens etc came on, but wouldn't move out of P or N, with red battery icon on display (red mean bad? or is that just the colour). Eventually AA turned up, battery was reading 12V fine, and the car started (sat with it off while we waited). Quite frustrating but we got out. Very strange. Will keep an eye on this situation thanks to your videos. Cheers.
Andrew, just a note, the monitor is straight across the battery so if a short cut appears then may be some serious damage under the bonnet, so should it not be fused?, as for your booster if you battery dies and you find it hard to enter to jump start the battery how about installing a permanent supply say under the charger flap, so if you carnt get info the car then open the charge port and plug you booster in and this may give you enough power to open the door and switch on the car
It’s a good job it was only a cheap car, having to buy kit to keep it “start ready” and on the road etc, interesting to see what’s involved 😊
You should disconnect the negative terminal first when working on a battery. I do enjoy your down to earth videos.
+1 for your pun :)
Do you know what would happen to that spanner or possibly battery if you unfortunately touched the vehicle ground whilst undoing the power connection? You should always undo the vehicle ground and leave disconnected before touching the power lead (I'm saying power instead of positive for those cases where the vehicle has a positive earth/vehicle frame connection).
The battery or spanner could explode!
The App comparison isn't actually like for like. My mobile phone will tell me which app is using excessive power draw BUT only because each app is a discrete unit, and the phone's operating system is set up to do this (based on years of allowing third party apps and therefore they DISCOVERED that the O/S actually NEEDED to monitor power usages). Of course you wouldn't want the EV user to shut down any of the car's internal apps, but as a car manufacturer this should be one of your aims!
I watched a really interesting YT video of the 1969 moon landings and even that operating system had a power usage monitoring system built in! IIRC, On descent ground control figures out what was causing the power drain and told the crew to disable it. How far we've come! (or should that be, how far have we reversed?)
Another really informative video Andrew, I'm learning so much from you.
Confession: I think I was one of the comedians who teased you about leaving the battery starter in the boot.😁 Good to know it was a sods law job, typical eh?!🙄
It is pretty rubbish that an oem who has actually made some really decent, desirable evs has let this irritating little flaw persist.
Uck... Hope you're both wrapped up doing the school run, weather is slapping loads of water down! 💦 💦 💦
Our second Kia Soul EV 12v battery has gone dead after just 4 months! However this time the monitor recorded multiple voltage spikes between 7v and 19v. This might be a clue as to what is going on. These voltage levels are certainly harmful to 12v lead acid batteries. Our car is going back to the dealer at the end of the month with all this info. To get 19v spikes the power must somehow be coming from the traction battery.
Your monitor shows unusually high voltage drop during a single day. I have the same monitor in my Prius V and I have O.02V - 0.08V drop in 24 hours on days when I don't touch the car and see no voltage events. Your parked car is obviously using the battery quite a lot.
The 12v battery is near to dead on our 2 year old ID.3. I was wondering if one of those trickle solar panel chargers would be sufficient to keep the 12v battery healthy. We don't use the car every day so I anticipate this problem recurring.
Alternatively I just get an AA replacement with 5 year warranty and let fate make it's own mind up ...
Digital 12V/24V LED Car Vehicle Socket Voltmeter Voltage Battery Tester Checker just put it in your car power socket for less than a tenner....
I've had this issue on my 2020 Hyundai Kona EV too, although I think that was caused initially by the boot not properly closing and leaving the light on in the boot which drained the 12v battery. This happened a few times and then the 12v battery developed a fault (as they don't like to be left at 0% charge). Hopefully, it won't reoccur... but the Hyundai dealership near me was fairly clueless about this. We're much better at making sure the boot is completely closed (and the catch seems to have eased a bit over a few years so it works a bit better).
Did you notice any issues using the iOS app? After installing it, I noticed very high background usage which nearly killed my phone battery.
I had similar problem with my second hand 2015 VW e-Up!, i used the battery monitor showed in the video, was very useful, i concluded that the 12v battery was to little and checked the 12v battery support plate, as i expected, there was a second screw hole for a bigger (longer) battery. This mainly for cold climates regions where the temperature has bigger impact on cars (engine starter for ICE version, electric pre heating until engine is hot enough to supply heat to the cabin)
I upgraded from an original 40Ah to a 55Ah (Varta with silver dropping tech 👍🏻✅) since then never had any problem again.
I would have flipped the positive spade terminal 180 degrees so that only the relatively thin and flexible wire would have to exit the battery terminal cover rather than the large, solid red hunk of plastic. It looked like there was plenty of wire to accommodate that.
Maybe Hyundai should alter the 12v charging parameters from
Start 12.6 volts, stop 13.0 volts
To
Start 12.8 volts, stop 13.2 volts.
.
That extra 0.2 volts would give more "wiggle room" if there's another load on the battery.
.
Maybe a "panic" setting, where if it gets to within 0.3 volts of its "dead" level, it defaults to a "high charge" mode from the main pack, assuming that pack has more than...... 5% charge?
Also, a software switch which detects if that mode activates multiple times in a certain period 3 times in a week? Then displays an alarm on boot-up.
All things which should be easy to accomplish.
The car already monitors the 12V battery, it’s kind of insane you have to add a completely aftermarket system to actually get the information that’s already in the vehicle. That’s exactly what’s wrong with todays cars where customers are locked out of the systems and we have no right to repair.
Google the model number of this monitor because there are reports that the associated software not only will put an excessive data load but also drain your phone battery. They also say that the s/w reaps personal information that it does not really need. Privacy concerns!!
Too bad because it looks like a nice simple technical solution.
Just check if you can physically install a bigger 12 volts battery and go for it, you will solve this problem for good. 😉
You alarm system you door locking system is in constant use it send signals to you keys on a regular basis you monitoring system are on when your car is sat locked it all draws on the 12v that whyvwhen you go on holidays and park carcat Airport for two weeks make sure you have 50% battery charge as the car will be using energy whilst sat and so 12v will,draw its charge from main battery unlike ice thec12v battery in a bev hev or phev is much smaller insize so it does not have the capacity to sit for several days or weeks.
6 month failure on a Tesla as well,I’m thinking discharge due to low usage,Cars that set for long periods don’t have abilities to charge
I just passed on buying an Ioniq 5 due to this problem and Hyundai's apparent inability to fix it.
I was always under the impression that perhaps you really notice a bad 12v with an ice car first since it's got to have enough power to crank the engine to start it whereas with an ev you don't get or need such a huge reserve to start the vehicle so it would be much more quickly apparent with an ice car?
Thanks Andrew for another great video 👍🏻
Vehicle engineering has moved at a snails pace with little to no innovation. You can build the same vehicle 25 years ago. It’s very stupid that it cannot warn about the battery health so at least the driver can prevent being stranded. I’ve driven a vehicle for decades that never left me stranded..
Mr till we have found the problem. There was an unapproved electrical thing across your battery draining the power. We have removed it and you should be ok from now.
LOL! Exactly my thoughts. Next available repair slot: summer 2023 something.
Many of these issues could be solved via software update. If the car knows where the 12V battery is, the car can choose to top it up and manage it for you. You shouldn't need to know to leave the car "on" when you're in the car to prevent the 12V from going down.
''You shouldn't need to know to leave the car "on" when you're in the car to prevent the 12V from going down''.
Or, just turn the ignition off!
Controlled experiment time: Try turning off the welcome feature for a day and monitor the battery usage.
I'm confused, firstly my monitor seems to be the same as yours but I can't get a long term reading unless I leave my phone within bluetooth range? Is there a better way? Secondly, my Ioniq 5 keeps dieing, I got a battery charger but it shows as almost full on the charger and also on the battery monitor?! Yet the car does not start until jumped by the charger. This is very odd. It's as if the car thinks the battery is bad or without charge when it isn't 🤦. Hyundai are not helping at all with this.
In theory it should come up with “synchronising” when you go to the app and then download the latest month(?) worth of data?
That’s shocking Hyundai aren’t helping you. Clearly there’s a fault somewhere and they should honour the warranty. 😔
What size of portable 12v charger should I purchase?
It seems to be a common problem with these vehicles. This is why I refuse to be a kia or Hyundai electric vehicles
One of the first things I did when I got my EV (a 2016 Kia Soul EV+) was replace the 12V lead-acid battery with a LiFEPo 12V battery (actually two 20AH 12V ones in parallel) which behave much better than the lead acid batteries in pretty much every way.
@timemachine194 Not sure if the Soul itself does (I would say yes), but the LiFEPo4 batteries do. The built in BMS does a lot in protecting from under and over voltage and other problems. Here's the info page for the battery I got (ReLion RB20): relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb20#:~:text=ELECTRICAL%20SPECIFICATIONS
If anyone is interested, here's what my parallel setup looks like: photos.app.goo.gl/UV5WPdsJqnzRVQnZ8 (Remember to connect + to + and - to -, *NOT* + to - and - to +, otherwise you will have a 24V setup that will likely fry your system!)
@timemachine194 I'm sure they chose that cutoff limit after much testing. All I can say is that I've had no problems whatsoever with it. My guess is that the Soul's own BMS limits voltage to the 12V battery to well under 15V anyways. I haven't monitored incoming voltage with the system live, but I might do that in the near future just to see where it likes to hover.
@timemachine194 There are two things, I feel, that also work in the 12V battery's favor when it comes to BEVs. First, there are no, like you say, hard demands on the battery at all. Even the power required to engage the traction battery is far lower than what's needed to engage a starter. But even more importantly, I feel, the amount of heat that is under the hood where the battery is located is SO much lower and I definitely feel that this not only helps the longevity of the 12V, but of so many of the other components in there too. I've driven mine for well over an hour and then popped the hood to put washer fluid in and it's barely warm in there, whereas with my old ICE cars if I drive it more than about 10 minutes and do the same it is like an oven in there.
A quick mention on this note: I recently found out that Toyota puts the starter for their Tacoma (or Tundra?) truck *INSIDE* the engine block, under the intake manifold. I can't think of a worse place to put that. I'm guessing it gets a tad warm in there, not to mention the cost of replacing the starter since you have to remove the whole intake too. I guess it helps ground clearance? Gives it a cleaner look?
@timemachine194 Oh, okay. When I bought the battery I was worried that it would require a special charger or some alteration be made to charge correctly, but when I read that it had its own built in BMS and that it can be used in "any application that a lead acid battery can be used" I decided to give it a shot and it's worked like a charm so far.
This is ridiculous. It’s a brand new car. You should not have to do anything.
Happy with my BM2. I have a different usage pattern due to 2 dashcams with security function on. My P45 has an even more rapid drop off than yours on the 12v and tops up more frequently. It all seems to work, so why do people get a flat battery as it seems to top up as intended?? All cars in this price bracket should be a lithium not lead acid 12v, even my motorbike has one….
My only beef with the BM2 is the battery consumption on my phone when constantly monitoring.
Many thanks for the video. Just wanted to let you know that (obviously) same thing happened to me with my Ioniq 5 (battery dead), so I bought the potable charger and the battery monitor (and a 10mm spanner!). I charged and stored the charger in the frunk, but I had trouble fitting the battery monitor to the battery. I could loosen the live (red) nut, but it just loosened the whole fitting and the nut did not move up the bolt! Also, it is very tricky loosening the neutral (black) nut, so in the end I bought some additional nuts - they are M6 nuts - and attached it using them. It was much easier.
I tried to buy the kit from Amazon using your reference, but I have no idea if it worked.
One final minor note: I have the 2021 model (ordered in August '21, delivered Easter '22) and my Bluelink app does not have a Batter Status setting on the page that you show.
Which portable charger did you buy please?
I am thinking that an emergency switch that will allow the high voltage battery to charge the 12 volt battery
Hey Andrew, thank you for this video and the helpful links. Cheers from Germany.
Another topic: I read a lot about the HDA not working properly in the Ioniq 5, some reported wobbling effects (car repeatedly steering left right) when using it, other even mentioned life threatening situations (car was driving dangerously close towards oncoming traffic). I currently own a very old ICE car which I intent to replace with the Ioniq 5. So all those fancy assistance systems are new to me and I was pretty excited to get my hands on them. But now I wonder if they are actually save to use? Do you use any of the assistance features or are they just marketing bait?
Thanks for the great video Andrew. Have you by any chance taken a closer look at how Bluelink app usage affects the 12v? If you open the app, presumably the car goes into "accessory" mode - but for how long until it goes to sleep again? Definitely need to keep away from the app at night :)
Just one point worth mentioning. I have been speaking to a Hyundai tech and he insists that the black negative side of a BM2 bluetooth monitor should be attached to a nearby chassis point and not directly to the negative post of the 12v battery. It seems that in the Ioniq 5 there is an additional sensor on the car's lead on the terminal and adding an unexpected bit of hardware there can confuse it and send incorrect messages to the car's computers.
That's really interesting, thank you!
They could just take electricity from the main battery, step it down to 12 v, and get rid of the 12 volt battery, and it would save complexity and wouldn't really change energy consumption. It is so stupid to include a part that is unnecessary and a failure point and is actually fairly expensive. It is so stupid.
@Unconventional Ideas How is it, do you suppose, that none of the vehicle manufacturers (engineers) have figured out what you seem to have? Curious.
Hi Andrew, I installed one tonight and my iPhone immediately blocked the website the BM2 app uses. iPhone has Norton Security installed.. think the app is passing location data back to central servers .. have blocked location tracking and will remove it at weekend and return to Amazon. Pity cos it worked well !
Argh - thanks for letting me know. Sorry for the hassle. I wonder if alternatives exist?! I’ll have a look.
Update: There's an article about it here: doubleagent.net/that-battery-monitor-what-happened-after-the-post/
I've now added a note on my website about it, advising people against getting it (unless they don't care about their location data being sent to servers in China).
You could start an EV on any 12v battery. Those jump start packs are designed for running the high amp draw of a starter motor. An EV will never draw more than a few amps to start. In theory 8 AA batteries in one of those 12v cases would be enough.
At least it didn't catch fire like some of the Chevy Bolts.
You have developed obsession about 12 v battery 😊
After my 12 volt failed fully today, someone at hyundai just told me that putting a battery monitor on could invalidate my warranty.. I was also told that (surprise to me) that replacing the 12 Volt myself, even with a genuine hyundai battery, could also invalidate my warranty. I was told I had to call breakdown and get the car towed from my drive to the hyundai service centre and only then could they swap the battery without a two week lead time. I was not allowed to jump start the car and drive it to them.
I was told "that is how the whole car industry does it".
Can't deny this has made me somewhat rethink my plan to upgrade from a kona to a ioniq 6.
How utterly ridiculous.
If you were going to replace the factory installed 12-volt battery with something else, what would you recommend?
I've not heard of many people changing it, but I'd probably give a lithium one a go.
www.ioniqforum.com/threads/ioniq-5-lithium-12v-lifepo4-battery-replacement-group-47-for-existing-lead-acid.42304/
Funnily enough, an American company recently contacted me to ask if I'd be interested in reviewing their new LFP 12V but I have no IONIQ 5 to try it in! Have a look here: www.ohmmu.com/ev-hybrid-shop
It's extremely expensive though!
One issue I have seen is that the 12V battery is frequently the same one used by the brands ICE options. I had major issues with the 12V battery on my hybrid as it was designed for starting an engine, but it never saw a starting load. These 12V batteries should be deep cycle with proper battery management. They will last much longer than the starting batteries I have seen.
I couldn't agree more.
Good vid with explanation, but what an insane situation to begin with :(
Simply not good enough for the money their charging
Sorry for a stupid question but what are the disadvantages of just keeping the Ionic 5 in Utility mode
Not a stupid question at all! You can’t lock the car when it’s in Utility Mode.
I’ve had no issues with the 12V after the dealer did a BMS update by the way. I need to do an update video!
Hi, great information and I'm sure will come in handy as I'm about to collect my 2021 Ioniq 5 with 9000 miles. We're about to go on holiday, driving 268 to Southampton and leaving the car there for 7days, do I just turn the car off and leave it or do I put it into utility mode? I plan on parking the car with at least 50% charge. It's the 73kwh premium if that makes a difference. Thanks for your help.
It should be absolutely fine to leave it turned off. But I would recommend you get a jump starter just in case!
amzn.to/3nhs4Dx
@@MrEV
Hi and thanks for your reply, yeah I've just ordered one and the battery monitor although I'm due to pick the car up tomorrow evening but when I test drove it the other day I linked the BlueLink to my mobile, today at 6.45pm it said that charging had started, by 6.50pm it said that charging had reached the set level and stopped, even though it wasn't anywhere near the set level of 80%, I'm guessing it's having the charging problem of over heating 🙄
On my 2022 ioniq 5 se it has a yellow light on top of the dash that lets you know it’s charging the 12 volt. The dealer didn’t even know that 😂.
I don’t know whether they added that fairly recently, but I never saw that on mine!
Hey Andrew, have you tried buying an inverter or making one with a 1 amp charger in series to a miliamp charger? You can charge a 12 volt with Epson salt and distilled water for 48 hours. It should last a year on Ice and charge back the amps to 70 %, you can do this up to 3x or roughly for 3 years.
Hi Andrew could you please share the link for this nice bit of kit, I wanna get my FE Soul hooked up cheers
Of course! Here you go: misterev.co.uk/gear/12v-monitor
Mr EV, thank you for this video and for the helpful links. Please keep the Good Work going. I ordered IONIQ 5 MY23 ; which is arriving in the UK end of February 2023. I hope Hyundai have updated ALL the software etc. However, I will purchase BM2 battery monitor. It's look like 12 volt battery dose lots of things in Ioniq 5. I think that 77 kWh main battery supports only the Driving Distance. I have a different question for you Andrew, which is about a immobiliser. Do you think, fitting a GHOST 2 immobiliser will void the Hyundai Warranty ? please let me know. Thank you in advance. ( GHOST 2 distributor is AutoWatch UK )
Please tell me which brand to buy. The one you shoe is on Amazon @ £39.99 and there are others @ a lot less. Is the one you show worth the extra? Appreciate your help.
I think there are a few that are virtually the same, just with different packaging. I've not tested them so I can't say for sure though, sorry! If you find one that goes on the battery as this does, supports Bluetooth 4.0, and has an app - then I'm sure it'll be fine. I just find it's the app aspect of this that makes it so good. Other 12V monitors that plug into the cigarette lighter are ok, but you have to get in the car to see the voltage which makes them less useful I think.
Are Hyundai/KIA STILL having 12V problems??? Soul, Classic Ioniq, Kona, Niro, all of them had 12V problems, and Hyundai knows this very, very well! Most owners in cold climates have been left stranded at one time or another because of this.
In the EV capital, Oslo, Norway, Hyundai have a service car constantly driving around town just to restart EVs stranded from bad 12V.
It is shocking to hear it is still an issue with the next gen. flagship car!
The 12 Volt battery runs almost everything except for the main traction motor and the AirCon.
Our EV runs the infotainment screen, radio, daytime running lights, bluetooth, if i, etc at all times that the car is being used. Some of those systems never seem to be turned off. For instance, how does the car detect your proximity with the key? It's because the system is always running.
It's very easy to draw, let's say, 100 mA (0.1 Amps) with those devices. A 50 Ah battery which is fully charged, and actually capable of delivering the claimed power, will be drained completely within 21 days, if the car is not in use. Unless you're running that battery saver mode.
In Winter, the Lead/acid battery will have reduced capacity, and as it ages it's capacity also reduces. So after a year of use, and if the car isn't used almost every day, it's common for that 50 Ah battery to have a capacity of 20 Ah or less. In Winter, even in England, the capacity can be halved again very easily. So that might leave a true capacity of 10 Ah or less in cold weather. That assumed 0.1 Amp power draw will therefore flatten the battery completely after about 4 days of standing idle.
Incidentally, how much current does that battery monitor draw? That current adds a little more to the drain of the battery.
When we charge the high voltage battery through AC or DC Charger, does it charge the 12v battery? Meaning we can safely use the air con and radio inside the car while we wait
That's a really good question and I don't know the answer definitively, but I'm 99% positive the IONIQ 5 does. The safest thing to do is just have the car on in ready mode (foot on brake, press power button) when you're charging.
I'd be surprised if any EV depletes the 12v while it's being charged to be honest. If anyone knowledgeable reads this, please chime in with an answer!
Country Living! You may be a victim of your environment, Andrew.
How far is the nearest cell tower? Apart from winter mode monitoring main battery pack temperature, I couldn't figure out why you are steadily drawing current. Then you said it: "Everytime you acces the app it will use the 12 V battery." But not just when using the app: The car must ping the LTE | 4G tower and set things like broadcast power constantly. How is your cell signal strength? Just a thought.
Anyway, thank you for all the gadgets. Shouldn't be necessary as you say, but fun nonetheless. You are the Q branch of the IoniQ 5. :)
so when is it not charging the 12 volt battery
Something else you can do with a smart phone! Joking aside, it’s likely that the charging set up in your Hyundai is set up to manage a lead acid battery properly, using the “float charging” technique. It’s a compromise between keeping it charged up, but without too much chemical damage to it’s plates, thus extending it’s life cycle. If it operates as a float charger, you’d expect the voltage to be lower for a while, then back up to a charging value when it switches on.
After all, in most normal cars there is always some demand on the 12V, such as the alarm system, so they do run down every day, and are charged up intermittently in normal use
I’ve got an old mains powered gadget that does provide a float mode, with a couple of settings - slow, and fast, and an auto ‘float’ mode, so when it’s left on for a while, it will automatically avoid overcooking it. Essentially, in that mode it does not provide a ‘trickle charge’, but it is intermittent.
I have watched a couple of your videos re BM2 - Fantastic thanks. I have one fitted to my KUGA. My battery has gone down to 3.5v twice!!! Yuk" My for dealer are really helpfut and will be relacinf the battery an checking the software...
HOWEVER, I would very much like to video record the BM2 as you have - that would give me more tech stuff and further evidence for what is happening to my battery system. Is it possible for you to show how to do live vudeos of the BM2 data
It's fairly simple to record your phone's screen. Here are instructions for you:
Android: support.google.com/android/answer/9075928?hl=en-GB
iPhone: support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207935
Thanks a million - I will give it ago shortly... Another issue: Pluigged inyo the hybrid socker charged both Hybrid battery and the 12v bat. 6 hours later, BM2 says battery low... passenger door not working... @@MrEV
Bluetooth is kinda "meh" due to its short range.. and god beware if you have your car in a garage. Would probably make more sense to have one that does Wifi, or makes noise when battery gets too low. But the main fix is to hope Hyundai pushes a software fix.
Also, the vent as an indicator is strange.. normally it's supposed to open only when battery temperature adjustment (either heating or cooling) is active, which should not be necessary during 12V battery recharging, as that's such an insignificant load on the HV battery. Was it plugged in to your EVSE at that moment? Then it might need to cool the battery at least a bit..
I too have had several problems with the 12V battery of my EV. Two battery failures on our Renault ZOE within 3 years, and the first battery failure on our 2.5 year old Hyundai Kona EV. According to the workshop foreman at my car dealership, Hyundai has massive problems with the quality of the supplier's batteries. The Honda dealership stocks a large number of 12V batteries because the batteries of all cars fail very frequently. Unfortunately, the battery voltage is not a reliable indicator of whether the battery is still healthy. It's the internal resistance. 12.6V is the physical no-load voltage of the battery when fully charged. 14.4V is the recommended charging voltage at 25° battery temperature. Normally, the 12V batteries of EVs are significantly less stressed than in cars with internal combustion engines. Why they still fail so often is a mystery.
This really shouldn't be necessary in a vehicle as expensive as IONIQ 5. Just part of the reason I won't ever purchase another Hyundai group EV in future. Poor quality parts, poor quality experience.
Andrew thank you for a really interesting video. I was viewing it because...... my Ioniq 5 battery died 4 days ago! The recovery guy said it was down to 4V but boosted it and it started fine and I've had no problem since. I had used a tyre pump 2 days before (while engine was running) and driven it after that, but no other use of the 12V that I can think of. Worth saying the temperature went down to -6° and below freezing for a couple of days, and car only had an 11% charge.
So the problem is still there but my garage said "not a known issue".
Cheers Peter
Hello, does the device mounted on the 12 v battery not consume the current from it? Is it possible to tell me the consumption of this device?
A tiny amount - 1mA.
replacing a lead acid +12V battery with a Lithium Ion equivalent won't help if it there's phantom power draw on the +12V line and the car's own monitoring software doesn't notice the low voltage and automatically turn on the DC-DC converter to top it up. My hunch is that there's probably something going on when the charge flap is open but not charging because it's peak rate electricity. Are there lights in the charge flap?
This happened to me in the ionic. Nightmare
I wonder if installing a deep cycle 12V battery is feasible, either AGM or standard. The car does not need cranking power. The OEM 12V is only 60 amp/hour I believe, not a lot.
That battery monitor just dropped from $27.50 US to $20 US over the last couple days, so good time to get it while it's on sale.
Andrew, You do not say what the capacity (Ah) of the Ionic5 12v battery is. I think 12v batteries used on EVs are smaller capacity than ICE vehicles as they don't have to do high energy cranking.
I see the the spec of the battery monitor says that it draws around 1.5mA itself so obviously just having it connected makes the situation very slightly worse although I guess/hope negligable.
what does " gales outside" mean in American English ? Like a wind storm ?
That’s it!
No it's dropping as your car when parked is drawing from the 12v system to run back system alarm communication between car and you app etc so your car will draw down until the battery monitor get a 12.5v /12.6v reading then draws from the main battery and tops up. To around 14.5v
This appears normal unless you keep a log as to times locking unlocking communication via app lights on etc then you can see the larger draw off from 12v b
Great video, thx. I’ve got the new Kia Niro EV and I managed to discharge my 12v twice now by remotely starting the climate control. Just installed the monitor to see what’s going on. Does your Ioniq discharge if you remotely start heating?
Congrats on getting the new Niro! I no longer have the IONIQ 5 unfortunately, but no, that didn't happen for me. I'd heard of other people having issues when using the app though. It was all fixed with a BMS update the dealer had to do, so maybe check with Kia to see if there's a known issue and whether an update will solve it?
@@MrEV Will do
I would like to replace the lead 12V battery with a li ion battery since i m away from home 5 month a year. Could you advise me the right 12V lithium battery that would fit the Ioniq 5?
It would be cool if they equipped ev cars with small solar cells on the roof that supplied trickle 12v to avoid just such faults. Just enough to power up the internal cpus and switches. It could check the onboard 12v utility battery and report battery faults on startup before it switches on the main battery pack to charge it. I'm a software and hardware engineer and thats what I'd do.
Hi all
We have a 2021 Kia E Niro, delivered Nov 2020, and spotted a 12v battery drain in Jan '21 when on furlough for just a month and at this time only doing short trips to the shops and back. Now back at work and doing a 60 mile round trip 4 times a week have no problems with 12v drain !
Watched all your videos on UA-cam on this point and tend to think it's a issue with lot's of short journeys draining the " tiny " 12v battery as have had no problems with 12v drain now.
Sorry but BEV's are brilliant in town,we live in London, but this short trip 12v battery drain must be a pain for some!
Because of this video I purchased the monitor and a capacitor based jump starter. I hope I never need them, but the peace of mind is worth it.
The monitor was helpful, because it shows that the battery is being charged frequently. I have nothing to worry about. Maybe I will check the logs once per week to reinforce that all is good with the led acid battery. So the $25 cost was well worth it.
As for the super expensive capacitor jump starter, it's a lot better than jumper cables or maintaining a battery jump starter. It will help someone someday.
Great video Andrew. I've just experienced the same issue with my 3 week old, 500 mile ionic 5. On charge overnight, dead in the morning. This is my fist ev so i had no idea what had happened until watching your 2 videos. Not impressed that this has happened without warning in a £40k+ brand new car!! What was the outcome of taking the car back to hyundai? Can't find the promised follow up video?
I just realized that you only have UK and US Amazon affiliate links listed. I would like to use your links but I am not from UK or US but Germany. If Brexit wouldn't have happened I could just use the UK link and not worry about it, but since UK is not part of the customs union anymore, this option is out. Is there a chance that you will add Amazon 'de' or 'fr' in the future?
Thanks. Although I don't yet have a BEV... I really wish the IONIC 5 was more widely available in the U.S.
But- I wasn't aware of these Bluetooth devices. They will likely be handy even for ICE cars. I'm going to try one.
I have a 2017 Ioniq Hybrid. The hybrid classic Ioniqs were equipped with the lithium ion 12 volt batteries while the plug-in and EV versions were stuck with the lead acid. There were many reports of dead 12v batteries in the PIH and EV Ioniq forums. Don’t know why Hyundai has persisted with lead acid in their more electrified versions.