Layne was referring to a study looking at a single variable effect, specifically cold plunge vs muscle growth. This guy is addressing cold plunge’s effects on multiple different variables that could have effects on muscle growth and performance enhancement. It’s essentially two different conversations, and even then there’s not much control for the other variables besides cold plunging. Layne even addresses later in that video that if you like cold plunge for the dopamine rush or pain management aspect that could lead to longer term improvement because if you feel better you will probably train harder.
Cold plunges have been proven over and over again to be detrimental to muscle-building. They are somewhat useful to athletes, to allow them to get back on the field faster with less soreness, but in the long run, cold plunges are detrimental to any kind of progressive muscle gain. Saunas, on the contrary, have a lot of evidence of beneficial effects for athletes, bodybuilders, and regular folks.
Not just muscle building but actual improvement in performance on most levels, especially in regards to healing from injuries (which training is on a level that’s tough to explain).
Brian Shaw, Eddie hall and Thor all use cold plunges. To say it’s “detrimental to muscle building” is a bit misleading. It may be sub optimal, for muscle growth in general, but Brian Shaw has 4 worlds strongest man titles and Eddie is the first human to ever pull 500kg and Thor, well he’s just a mountain. You can’t say it’s detrimental when the largest humans on the planet do it every day. The best you can say is that there’s no evidence to support muscle growth claims and there’s mounting evidence to show that it may negatively affect the total amount of possible muscle gain. It’s also not exactly a study that you can run a placebo control or a double blind. Best case is a single blind study. I am not a cold exposure believer, I don’t even put ice on injuries unless the inflammation is running away. I just don’t believe the data has proven it to be detrimental.
Layne reported what the study showed. The study has the limitations it has. This guy just talked for a long time about possible effects of cold exposure based on mouse studies and proposed mechanisms. This was just a waste of time.
I was going to say something very similar. Layne was presenting data on outcomes while this guy was taking hypothesis of mechanisms and extrapolating that to outcomes which were not presented with data in a convincing manner. Upregulation of mitochondrial biogenesis is cool, but does that actually translate into better performance is the real question.
The best reason to use cold plunge is REM cycle sleep. Get a whoop band wear it for a week. Check your REM sleep, cold plunge everyday for a week wear your whoop band to sleep . Watch your REM sleep numbers go through the roof. REM sleep helps with everything.
This constant trivial tribal stuff is just wasting time. Do what works for you. Do what you enjoy. This fascination with ultra optimization is becoming the issue. If cold plunges make you feel like you get more recovery go for it. If it impacts results in a positive or negative way you will know and find out for yourself. In respect Layne's point about many things because he is pointing these factors out. Most people pushing cold plunges are shilling or sponsored by some cold plunge company and that is FINE if it works for them and if you want to try it it may work for you.
The tricky thing with “muscle growth” studies is they’re very short-term. The reality is that many of us (naturals) are looking to break plateaus. Where I am, getting a pound of muscle every two months would be great. Cold plunges, cardio, 1RM training, and such will lead to downstream physical adaptions that allow me to push the hypertrophy work a bit harder. Cold plunges seem to have a particularly strong effect at improving the immune system, which may not help in hypertrophy training, but allows me to train more consistently and has other obvious health and lifestyle benefits beyond hypertrophy
Well to be fair, Layne was only parroting the studies. He didn't actually do the study. Unfortunately too much weight is placed on junk studies that are too short, too small, used the wrong participants, or were not double blind and correctly controlled.
There’s no way to ‘double blind’ a cold plunge study. That means that the results from all of the studies are subject to that much more bias from both participants and researchers. It pains me to agree with Layne Norton, but at least in areas like this one, I don’t think the studies are going to be much help. What would change my mind is if a study showed a very large effect, too large for ordinary bias to account for.
@@coffeemachtspass Why would is pain you to agree with Norton? He backs his videos up with research, works in the field, and admits when he is proven wrong.
A lot of the video is mechanistic hypothesis that are then extrapolated to "this means health/performance benefits" while not providing convincing data for said hypothesis. It actually looks like hes using an Ai on X but i could he wrong I don't use the platform. Layne on the other hand was reporting on a hard outcome from cold exposure with muscle hypertrophy. The claim about cold being additionally additive to cross country skiiers high average VO2 max really tells me nothing and is not convincing. We know that in general, yes, cold ambient temperature (to a point) does improve cardiovascular efficiency as cooling the body is less demanding, thus ones performance is enhanced. Cross country skiiers have the highest VO2 maxes because of genetic selection, training often at high altitudes, and having to use upper and lower body muscle groups in their sport. Im of the position that if one has placeboed themselves into enjoying and feeling better with cold plunging good for them. I am not convinced by the data to make that recommendation to clients. I would rather they spend that time meal prepping or being active or even with family.
It’s not hard to understand cold plunges. It creates adrenaline. Reduces inflammation, burns fat for about 4 hours. That being said. If you know it kills inflammation such as chronic inflammation or hypertrophy then timing is important. I do it during calorie reduction phases since I’m not planning on muscle gain during this phase. Testing after a workout is deceptive.
In the video, the discussion revolves around the recent criticisms surrounding cold plunging and its effects on muscle growth and recovery. The speaker addresses a study by Dr. Lane Norton, which suggests that cold exposure may hinder muscle growth and recovery performance. However, he argues that cold exposure should be viewed differently, as there are benefits that can enhance overall performance and metabolic function. David Herrera, an expert featured in the video, explains that cold exposure can increase dopamine levels, which are important for motivation and training performance. He critiques the design of the study mentioned, claiming it failed to adequately assess the long-term effects of cold exposure and did not consider its impacts on metabolic processes. He emphasizes that cold exposure should be applied before or during training rather than afterward to reap its benefits. Throughout the discussion, various physiological effects of cold exposure are highlighted, including enhanced metabolic rates, thyroid hormone activity, and potential benefits for athletic performance. Herrera stresses the importance of studying these effects in the right context and timing, rather than dismissing cold exposure as ineffective based on selective metrics like lap times. He concludes by advocating for a more nuanced understanding of how cold exposure can be beneficial, depending on how and when it is applied.
How do you define an "expert"? I can't find any published research by this guy. Throwing "dopamine" and "mitochondria" at anything doesn't make you an expert
Anyone ever met a 14 year old with enough self awareness to give a valid opinion on how their body feels or is responding to exercise or any given recovery method? My 16 year old son and his mates all still go to the gym just to mess around and socialise and have no idea what they’re actually doing. Definitely wouldn’t rely on them to provide valid data in a study lol.
Nothing recent about this. I have spent hours upon hours, reading about cold exposure. There are no benefit of cold plunges apart from a slight reduction in inflammation and a kick of adrenalin. If you want/like that, do it. If not, dont. Cold plunges to me have been ruined by all the people claiming it does all sorts of good things. Is it not enough to just like the feeling or the challenge? "beating your inner bitch" as joe rogan puts it
A DEEP DIVE INTO COLD EXPOSURE. Part:1 Deliberate cold exposure has been shown to be very beneficial for the body in many ways short and long term. The body has cold receptors in the skin and when the skin comes in contact with cold water or air it sends signals to the hypothalamus in the brain which activates the sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight). Catecholimes are then flooded into the body. There is a spike in a noradrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine. The spike in noradrenaline activates mitochondria in the bodies adipose tissue (brown fat). A molecule called succinate is released, which activates brown fat. Brown fat helps regulate body temperature and increases metabolism. The more adaptive the body gets to the cold, the better the brown fat cells get at heating the body. So, the increase in metabolism and being in a thermogenic state can help burn bad body fat and can give you a boost of energy that can last for hours. Cold exposure is the most potent form of brown fat activation. Also, there is such a dopamine release in the body that many people have used cold exposure to help overcome their drug addictions, replacing the dopamine from the drugs with the dopamine hit from the cold exposure. Cold exposure also has a huge impact on the immune system. The cold triggers the activation of immune cells like IL-6 and T-Lymphocytes. The increase in these cells can make the body more resistant to forms of infection. Also, cold exposure reduces inflammation markers in the body, which helps decrease modern lifestyle diseases and helps with depression. Cold exposure over time can help lower blood pressure and heart rate and helps with insulin sensitivity.
A DEEP DIVE INTO COLD EXPOSURE. PART: 2 Athletes benefit greatly from the cold. It can reduce long-term inflammation in the joints and muscles. Inflammation in joints can cause pain and bad movement patterns that can potentially result in injury. Although it's great for athletes. It must be done in a certain time frame if an athlete or anyone trains for the purpose of strength/hypertrophy. The cold can blunt the adaptations. The best time is to wait 4-6 hours after training to get the full adaptation with no blunting from the cold. Now athletes that are in season going for performance icing or cold exposure,is ok to do at any time. Because the athlete is trying to maximize recovery for performance and not trying to maximize growth. Timing is key. The cold also helps reduce Delayed onsdelayedle soreness(DOMS). It's also been shown that icing injuries can delay the natural healing process of the body. So if an athlete or anyone has a minor injury. It's best to try to move it to get the lymphatic pump help the recovery process. The term R.I.C.E is outdated and has been recanted. Another way to improve recovery and all around well being is to add heat exposure. (Sauna, hot tub). The vasocontriction/dilation of the blood vessels gives many cardiovascular benefits added with the release of cold/heat shock proteins that helhelpevent cardiovascular disease and more. other benefits of the cold and heat is the release of growth hormone, oxytocin, sa aotonine and increases in glutathione. Glutathione is an antioxidant that helps reduce aging. Cold/heat also helps build mental resiliency that can help with other aspects of life. So cold exposure can help burn fat, gain energy, build mental toughness, improve cardiovascular function, and much more. Also, note that the extreme cold has the risk of being dangerous for people not adaptive to it. It can cause the body to go into shock or stop the heart and can blunt the adaptations in regard to strength/hypertrophy. So it's best to start with just a cold shower and let the body adapt over time and make sure it's at the right time when considering certain goals.
I think you would be wise to consider other aspects as well. Like where does the subject live, I think it makes less sense that a person that lives in a really cold climate would benefit as much from cold exposure as a person living in a warmer climate, and the same would apply to sauna use.
I like the dopamine rush afterwards, which is great prior to an early morning training session, and i like cold therapy after long runs, which helps to combat the fatigue, and it improves the feel good sensation that reinforces my desire to stick with endurance running 😂 especially because i hate running 😂 In saying that, im looking forward to Laynes take on this vid, no doubt he will have something to say.
Cold plunges help you make sigma grind-set tick tock videos ... that's it ... there are no significant benefits to this that's specific to cold exposure.
I’m convinced the majority of Layne’s followers are just Karen’s who don’t want to give up their diet cokes. I’m sure one of them will find this comment and ask for a study proving this.
Layne was referring to a study looking at a single variable effect, specifically cold plunge vs muscle growth. This guy is addressing cold plunge’s effects on multiple different variables that could have effects on muscle growth and performance enhancement. It’s essentially two different conversations, and even then there’s not much control for the other variables besides cold plunging. Layne even addresses later in that video that if you like cold plunge for the dopamine rush or pain management aspect that could lead to longer term improvement because if you feel better you will probably train harder.
if they had effect on variables that cause muscle growth then that would show up in the results about whether it affects muscle growth.
@@meginna8354well that’s exactly what happened and why he made the video lmao. Cmon
Cold plunges have been proven over and over again to be detrimental to muscle-building. They are somewhat useful to athletes, to allow them to get back on the field faster with less soreness, but in the long run, cold plunges are detrimental to any kind of progressive muscle gain. Saunas, on the contrary, have a lot of evidence of beneficial effects for athletes, bodybuilders, and regular folks.
Not just muscle building but actual improvement in performance on most levels, especially in regards to healing from injuries (which training is on a level that’s tough to explain).
Brian Shaw, Eddie hall and Thor all use cold plunges.
To say it’s “detrimental to muscle building” is a bit misleading.
It may be sub optimal, for muscle growth in general, but Brian Shaw has 4 worlds strongest man titles and Eddie is the first human to ever pull 500kg and Thor, well he’s just a mountain. You can’t say it’s detrimental when the largest humans on the planet do it every day. The best you can say is that there’s no evidence to support muscle growth claims and there’s mounting evidence to show that it may negatively affect the total amount of possible muscle gain.
It’s also not exactly a study that you can run a placebo control or a double blind. Best case is a single blind study.
I am not a cold exposure believer, I don’t even put ice on injuries unless the inflammation is running away. I just don’t believe the data has proven it to be detrimental.
Layne reported what the study showed. The study has the limitations it has. This guy just talked for a long time about possible effects of cold exposure based on mouse studies and proposed mechanisms. This was just a waste of time.
I was going to say something very similar. Layne was presenting data on outcomes while this guy was taking hypothesis of mechanisms and extrapolating that to outcomes which were not presented with data in a convincing manner. Upregulation of mitochondrial biogenesis is cool, but does that actually translate into better performance is the real question.
The best reason to use cold plunge is REM cycle sleep. Get a whoop band wear it for a week. Check your REM sleep, cold plunge everyday for a week wear your whoop band to sleep . Watch your REM sleep numbers go through the roof. REM sleep helps with everything.
This constant trivial tribal stuff is just wasting time. Do what works for you. Do what you enjoy. This fascination with ultra optimization is becoming the issue.
If cold plunges make you feel like you get more recovery go for it. If it impacts results in a positive or negative way you will know and find out for yourself.
In respect Layne's point about many things because he is pointing these factors out. Most people pushing cold plunges are shilling or sponsored by some cold plunge company and that is FINE if it works for them and if you want to try it it may work for you.
The tricky thing with “muscle growth” studies is they’re very short-term.
The reality is that many of us (naturals) are looking to break plateaus. Where I am, getting a pound of muscle every two months would be great.
Cold plunges, cardio, 1RM training, and such will lead to downstream physical adaptions that allow me to push the hypertrophy work a bit harder. Cold plunges seem to have a particularly strong effect at improving the immune system, which may not help in hypertrophy training, but allows me to train more consistently and has other obvious health and lifestyle benefits beyond hypertrophy
People still believe this cold exposure garbage?
Well to be fair, Layne was only parroting the studies. He didn't actually do the study. Unfortunately too much weight is placed on junk studies that are too short, too small, used the wrong participants, or were not double blind and correctly controlled.
He was referring to a study, however, his past feelings and beliefs, I think interrupts his message.
There’s no way to ‘double blind’ a cold plunge study. That means that the results from all of the studies are subject to that much more bias from both participants and researchers.
It pains me to agree with Layne Norton, but at least in areas like this one, I don’t think the studies are going to be much help.
What would change my mind is if a study showed a very large effect, too large for ordinary bias to account for.
@@coffeemachtspass Why would is pain you to agree with Norton? He backs his videos up with research, works in the field, and admits when he is proven wrong.
Eat right, sleep right and train hard...Everything else is tinsel on the tree
A lot of the video is mechanistic hypothesis that are then extrapolated to "this means health/performance benefits" while not providing convincing data for said hypothesis. It actually looks like hes using an Ai on X but i could he wrong I don't use the platform. Layne on the other hand was reporting on a hard outcome from cold exposure with muscle hypertrophy. The claim about cold being additionally additive to cross country skiiers high average VO2 max really tells me nothing and is not convincing. We know that in general, yes, cold ambient temperature (to a point) does improve cardiovascular efficiency as cooling the body is less demanding, thus ones performance is enhanced. Cross country skiiers have the highest VO2 maxes because of genetic selection, training often at high altitudes, and having to use upper and lower body muscle groups in their sport. Im of the position that if one has placeboed themselves into enjoying and feeling better with cold plunging good for them. I am not convinced by the data to make that recommendation to clients. I would rather they spend that time meal prepping or being active or even with family.
It’s not hard to understand cold plunges. It creates adrenaline. Reduces inflammation, burns fat for about 4 hours. That being said. If you know it kills inflammation such as chronic inflammation or hypertrophy then timing is important. I do it during calorie reduction phases since I’m not planning on muscle gain during this phase. Testing after a workout is deceptive.
In the video, the discussion revolves around the recent criticisms surrounding cold plunging and its effects on muscle growth and recovery. The speaker addresses a study by Dr. Lane Norton, which suggests that cold exposure may hinder muscle growth and recovery performance. However, he argues that cold exposure should be viewed differently, as there are benefits that can enhance overall performance and metabolic function.
David Herrera, an expert featured in the video, explains that cold exposure can increase dopamine levels, which are important for motivation and training performance. He critiques the design of the study mentioned, claiming it failed to adequately assess the long-term effects of cold exposure and did not consider its impacts on metabolic processes. He emphasizes that cold exposure should be applied before or during training rather than afterward to reap its benefits.
Throughout the discussion, various physiological effects of cold exposure are highlighted, including enhanced metabolic rates, thyroid hormone activity, and potential benefits for athletic performance. Herrera stresses the importance of studying these effects in the right context and timing, rather than dismissing cold exposure as ineffective based on selective metrics like lap times. He concludes by advocating for a more nuanced understanding of how cold exposure can be beneficial, depending on how and when it is applied.
Cold plunge has health benefits but it does crush inflammation so much that it prevents some muscle growth. So maybe do it away from the weights?
How do you define an "expert"? I can't find any published research by this guy. Throwing "dopamine" and "mitochondria" at anything doesn't make you an expert
Have you searched the name David Herrera? I found a lot of papers with his name on it
@ipadtoast2348 on cold exposure in humans? I tried but found nothing in Scholar. Feel free to send me a link. I only found papers by a Spanish dentist
Works for me. Once in the morning before PT and once before bed. Don't need a scientist to tell me anything.
Anyone ever met a 14 year old with enough self awareness to give a valid opinion on how their body feels or is responding to exercise or any given recovery method?
My 16 year old son and his mates all still go to the gym just to mess around and socialise and have no idea what they’re actually doing.
Definitely wouldn’t rely on them to provide valid data in a study lol.
Nothing recent about this. I have spent hours upon hours, reading about cold exposure. There are no benefit of cold plunges apart from a slight reduction in inflammation and a kick of adrenalin. If you want/like that, do it. If not, dont. Cold plunges to me have been ruined by all the people claiming it does all sorts of good things. Is it not enough to just like the feeling or the challenge? "beating your inner bitch" as joe rogan puts it
He looks like a Skyrim character
Bahahaha
Cold plunges are just a strong placebo treatment for people who believe their benefits
A DEEP DIVE INTO COLD EXPOSURE. Part:1
Deliberate cold exposure has been shown to be very beneficial for the body in many ways short and long term. The body has cold receptors in the skin and when the skin comes in contact with cold water or air it sends signals to the hypothalamus in the brain which activates the sympathetic nervous system(fight or flight). Catecholimes are then flooded into the body. There is a spike in a noradrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine. The spike in noradrenaline activates mitochondria in the bodies adipose tissue (brown fat). A molecule called succinate is released, which activates brown fat. Brown fat helps regulate body temperature and increases metabolism. The more adaptive the body gets to the cold, the better the brown fat cells get at heating the body. So, the increase in metabolism and being in a thermogenic state can help burn bad body fat and can give you a boost of energy that can last for hours. Cold exposure is the most potent form of brown fat activation. Also, there is such a dopamine release in the body that many people have used cold exposure to help overcome their drug addictions, replacing the dopamine from the drugs with the dopamine hit from the cold exposure. Cold exposure also has a huge impact on the immune system. The cold triggers the activation of immune cells like IL-6 and T-Lymphocytes. The increase in these cells can make the body more resistant to forms of infection. Also, cold exposure reduces inflammation markers in the body, which helps decrease modern lifestyle diseases and helps with depression. Cold exposure over time can help lower blood pressure and heart rate and helps with insulin sensitivity.
A DEEP DIVE INTO COLD EXPOSURE. PART: 2
Athletes benefit greatly from the cold. It can reduce long-term inflammation in the joints and muscles. Inflammation in joints can cause pain and bad movement patterns that can potentially result in injury. Although it's great for athletes. It must be done in a certain time frame if an athlete or anyone trains for the purpose of strength/hypertrophy. The cold can blunt the adaptations. The best time is to wait 4-6 hours after training to get the full adaptation with no blunting from the cold. Now athletes that are in season going for performance icing or cold exposure,is ok to do at any time. Because the athlete is trying to maximize recovery for performance and not trying to maximize growth. Timing is key. The cold also helps reduce Delayed onsdelayedle soreness(DOMS). It's also been shown that icing injuries can delay the natural healing process of the body. So if an athlete or anyone has a minor injury. It's best to try to move it to get the lymphatic pump help the recovery process. The term R.I.C.E is outdated and has been recanted. Another way to improve recovery and all around well being is to add heat exposure. (Sauna, hot tub). The vasocontriction/dilation of the blood vessels gives many cardiovascular benefits added with the release of cold/heat shock proteins that helhelpevent cardiovascular disease and more. other benefits of the cold and heat is the release of growth hormone, oxytocin, sa aotonine and increases in glutathione. Glutathione is an antioxidant that helps reduce aging. Cold/heat also helps build mental resiliency that can help with other aspects of life. So cold exposure can help burn fat, gain energy, build mental toughness, improve cardiovascular function, and much more. Also, note that the extreme cold has the risk of being dangerous for people not adaptive to it. It can cause the body to go into shock or stop the heart and can blunt the adaptations in regard to strength/hypertrophy. So it's best to start with just a cold shower and let the body adapt over time and make sure it's at the right time when considering certain goals.
I think you would be wise to consider other aspects as well.
Like where does the subject live, I think it makes less sense that a person that lives in a really cold climate would benefit as much from cold exposure as a person living in a warmer climate, and the same would apply to sauna use.
I'm pretty sure both are beneficial regardless.
Cold actuality negatively impacts your recovery,it simply halts the good inflammation necessary for recovery.
I like the dopamine rush afterwards, which is great prior to an early morning training session, and i like cold therapy after long runs, which helps to combat the fatigue, and it improves the feel good sensation that reinforces my desire to stick with endurance running 😂 especially because i hate running 😂
In saying that, im looking forward to Laynes take on this vid, no doubt he will have something to say.
Cold water feels good
99% of people think cold plunge is helpful. This is a non issue. It helps, move on
Contrary to Lane’s take, he’s not always right.
💯💯💯😂
Layne is trash 😂
Cold plunges help you make sigma grind-set tick tock videos ... that's it ... there are no significant benefits to this that's specific to cold exposure.
Cold is ok but dont be dramatic about it
And obnoxious and annoying.
I’m convinced the majority of Layne’s followers are just Karen’s who don’t want to give up their diet cokes. I’m sure one of them will find this comment and ask for a study proving this.
😂🤣🤣😂
So anyone that drinks diet coke is a Karen?
@@reallymakesyouthink studies have confirmed
@TribeWillis studies have confirmed that sugar is way worse for you than artificial sweeteners.
@reallymakesyouthink that's not what he said 🤦
Because he is wrong about most things
That’s Doctor Layne Norton to you bud
BURRRRR BURRRR BURRRRRT
Get em!