Thank you all for your continued support! Please enjoy this video on the proper understanding of Armor and Armor Piercing stats in Medieval 2 Total War!
One caveat to your video is I believe gunpowder units specifically round down when dividing in half. So actually the venetian infantry in your example would have 3 defense not 3.5.
@@lolol3112 In Rome and M2 all units have only 1 hitpoint, only exception is the General(the bodyguards also have a 2 hitpoint hidden stat as well) which has quite a lot of hitpoints + extra from traits and ancilliaries. Maybe elephants also have extra hitpoints but I am not sure.
I really wish developers would actually write full effects of units ingame such as gunpowder ignoring shields. A more readable game is a better game imo. It's so silly not to put it in.
@Oscar Strokosz Couldn't agree more, if they'd keep the old system untouched and just improve pathfinding, unit responsiveness and visuals it'd be epic. Went back to Medieval 2 after playing WH2 and haven't played any of the new ones except Atilla and Empire since. DAC mod is amazingly good if you're into Tolkein stuff too or Stainless Steel for historical if you ain't into fantasy. Both add loads of new mechanics and improve the AI (though sadly even then it falls short).
Also I think armour piercing should come in different degrees. By the end medieval period armour had gotten so good that only firearms were only ranged weapons that could reliably go through through armour ua-cam.com/video/DBxdTkddHaE/v-deo.html
No you don't, look at the crap in later titles. They write stuff that isn't true, they mess up, they fill your screen with BS. You don't want that. Just experiment and find out what works. That's why my gaming generation is superior over yours. You want to be spoon fed everything
Lots of very useful info here! Thanks for posting it Shewey. Fun fact: Musketeers and Arquebusiers have a fire by rank animation when put on skirmish mode. One rank will kneel and fire while the other reloads, while without skirmish mode one man shoots and then runs behind the other as he reloads and takes his place. Besides getting the first shot off, skirmish mode activated on these unit tends to speed up their firing rate and can be a good way to get an advantage in a gun-based skirmish. : )
Yes, it is 100% true and 100% annoying because, in Skirmish mode, they run away if anything blows a kiss in their direction and, if actually truly threatened, they never run far enough away (true of all skirmishing units, except maybe Cavalry Archers threatened by Infantry) to actually even fire a single volley before they have to skirmish-away again … Brave Sir Robin, Brave Sir Robin, Sir Robin the Very-Brave, please tell me: why haven't my guns used any of their ammunition? With skirmish-mode off, as The Waffles-of-many-waffles-names says, the second rank does not even prepare to fire until after the first rank has moved out of the way, the second rank has advanced to firing position, and the first rank has crouched to reload: if they receive counter-fire that causes casualties during this operation, they will reform again, to compensate for the missing man … walking around and around like tin soldiers in a shooting-gallery, never shooting back. Oy vay! These factors are part of what makes Musketeers/PortArquebusiers (also Elephant Gunners?) so much better than plain Arquebusiers: they waste less time in pointless, unending, reforming/skirmishing. Against gunners: if they're skirmishing (firing-by-rank, as Waffles describes), run a 'drive-by' (don't charge/engage) with fast cavalry, behind them: aside from not getting yourself shot to pieces, the enemy will skirmish toward your other advancing troops, which will force them to skirmish away again; not skirmishing, focus counter-fire on the same unit to neutralize it with incessant reforming.
Interestingly (and possibly usefully), a musket-type unit on skirmish mode will use the 2 rank fire animation even if they're more than 2 ranks deep. Meanwhile, if they're _not_ on skirmish mode, they will do the fire and withdraw animation, resulting in the entire unit slowly retiring. This can be annoying in sieges, especially, where it can be next to impossible to form 2 rank deep formations in the streets. However, if you can manage to prevent the enemy getting close enough to trigger the skirmish behaviour, keeping the unit on skirmish mode can allow for a constant stream of musket balls and prevent the unit from moving themselves out of position.
@@derkylos For some dumb reason, this applies when attacking over a bridge (so far as I can recall this does not demand Skirmish-mode): attacking over a bridge, if you can protect your gunners, otherwise (say, an entire army of mostly-retinue-longbowmen), a player can simply push (slowly) across the bridge ...
For maximum fun(tm): use a mounted gunpowder units (spanish dragoons, camel gunners, reiters, mounted thunder braves) - they can fire above the heads of infantry in front of them, ingore all but half of armor and can outrun almost everything in game. What's more, gunpowder cav can fire in its entire units, not just front 2-3 ranks. And because you fire over the head of infantry, you can apply that gunpowder morale penalty right before the ranks clash. You can also do this with mounted crossbows, though it's a lot less effective. Apaches are especially brutal when doing this, koitsenkoos, shaman warcry and mounted thunder braves stack on so many penalites most units rout the second they touch your front ranks.
It never would have occurred to me to have Reiters 'swoop-in' behind my own threatened Infantry line(s): break those attackers then, "danke schoen, Herrs Reiters, you may now return to your regularly-scheduled duties". Reiters can be even more fun than I thought.
Cool guide. 2 things to bring up though: 1: Gunpowder ignoring shields must be something hardcoded. Since they use the same type of AP as every other AP unit in the files. So it's more of a seperate innate ability of them rather than part of the AP ability. 2: This wasn't addressed in the video. But it's worth bringing up. Armour upgrades and attack upgrades (not chevrons, the attack upgrade only) give a +2 stat increase instead of a +1 stat increase like the game tells you. For example if a unit with 5 armour gets and upgrade and it shows 6 it's actually 7. If you get another upgrade for the same unit it will show 7 but it will actually be 9.
As far as I know, the upgrades from blacksmith building don't actually provide you with set armour value. They just give your units the next tier armour. For example, tanned leather is 4 armour value, but light chainmail is 5. Check out the armour section in this useful guide : steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=909957531
@@emperorofthegreatunknown4394 Its +1 just do it in game, a unit with 10 armor then with a bronze armor upgrade will have 11, I need a source if people are going to say other than what the game shows
@@thetowerproject3122 www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?102625-Armor-weapon-upgrade-questions-comments&p=1823215#post1823215 Modders have researched this, and it appears to greater than 2 and less than 3. You can test it pretty easily, put 10 armor upgraded dismounted feudal knights against 10 non-upgraded dismounted chivalric knights. You will see the feudals will prevail. Do the same test with upgraded sergeant spearmen vs Armored Sergeants.
AP+Gunpowder = -75% shield and -75% armour Gunpowder alone = -0% armour and -50% shield AP alone = -50% shield and -50% armour In case anyone wondered about the actual code doing this
@@Irgendjemandlol Wich part? I've actually modded this game and I'm 99% sure it's not in any of the unpacked files. Or did someone manage to decompile the .exe?
I'm glad you talk-people-through these mechanics. Some folks, even reviewing the FAUST, might not apprehend all of the implications; good job. I'll add this: Attack > Defense, the 2 stats do not 'cancel each other out'; were this untrue, Armored Sergeants (Att7/Def14) would never be able to kill each other.
I think it works somewhat like AC in D&D post 3rd edition. That is, there's a RNG added to the attack stat and, if the total exceeds the defence, a hit is landed (don't take this as gospel, though. My M2TW technical knowledge was acquired a _long_ time ago...)
@@derkylos I don't know post-3rd-edition D&D but, certainly, your supposition makes sense. I wanted to leave-out any reference to RNG simply because I wanted to make a concise point: of course the RNG is relevant and I think your analogy likely 'hits the issue on the head'; thank you; good job!
not tryna say anything bad about medieval or anyone, but thank god for Warhammer's complex-ass damage calculating system. Knowing what unit cards mean in Warhammer have made this so much easier to comprehend. Like seriously, every time someone swings at someone else, like 5 calculations have to be made by the ai. still, medieval doesn't do a very good job at explaining stats and I'm glad you made this vid.
Thanks for the great video, subscribed.The system is similar to Rome 2 but in rome 2 the unit stats and details are more clear and shown, while in med 2 is only in description like "does piercing damage" lol thats all. Such a pity the developers did not fix some bugs in the definitive edition that would cost them few effort like make pikes work fine, show more details in unit stats, fix cav pushthrough bug, and also allow formation change like rome ctrl+forward/back/left/right keys. Then med 2 would be super awesome. I play and stream Medieval 2 a lot but never was interested in competitive or in detail, this video was suggested to me by youtube so great channel you got for in-detail mechanics of this game My highlights from the video: 11:21 - all gunpowder units ignore the shield defense
Gotta tell ya, Shewey, I think this is an excellent video. I've been playing this game (it's the only game I have time for) for 5 years now off and on. I took a year or so away from the game because I was spending too much time on it. My playing time is limited now but I sure enjoy a good siege once in a while. After becoming somewhat recognized by some who play this game, several clans asked me to come and join their ranks. I was offered training by those in the clans. For various reasons I declined these nice offers. One of the main reasons I didn't join was that I didn't want to spend time on training. I just wanted to play and hopefully learn a few tips in order to be somewhat competitive. The main reason for playing this game was to try to keep my mind sharp. I'm one of the older players but I'm not to the point of doing word find puzzles or coloring books for the elderly (and I never want to be). I wasn't born with a mouse in my hands like so many of the younger players here so I found a few strategies that helped me win a game or two against younger and quicker players. I've seen a few of the videos made by each of the M2TW UA-camrs. Your channel is very new but it already has content I have seen nowhere else. As a defensive player, I've always looked at the defensive numbers of units but I have never learned what you have taught in this video. I know all of the top tier players know these things and most of them are kind enough to let me play with them but my priorities lie elsewhere so I don't have time to dig up information like this or even study it at great length. The videos you have posted thus far make it obvious why you are one of the top tier players. Since I try to use strategies to make up for my lack of quickness, this video was very helpful. I will probably watch it weekly until I understand it all well enough to be useful. Thank you for being willing to share this information. God's blessings... (Matt. 6:33)
Tried to explain this numerous times to Pixelated Apollo that the later period forces of France especially their cavalry were fully armored but used no shield simply because of the uselessness of it against gunpowder.
Excellent. I must browse your other videos. What I have been wondering is what does “5 Attk vs 6 Def” actually mean. How are the results is the attack actually calculated? I know that it doesn’t really make any difference to my gameplay (i.e., take the most advantageous position available and try to kill whatever is in front of you) but I’m curious.
WONDERFULL EXPLANATION....after years of battle of course I realized that hitting or attacking ANY unit from flanks and rears IS better...now I know PERFECT details for THAT....I am just sorry you forgot to mention details on how flaming missiles impact with numbers here...that would 'complete' this great video knowledge ! :)
That will be a separate video but the basic of it is flaming missiles do exactly the same damage as regular missiles but are slower to reload and apply a moral penalty.
@@thetowerproject3122 ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...I was SURE about moral penalty....fire scares much more...but I also had impression that could provide more damage...but just an impression, I never run a serious testing here...it's an important factor sometimes to try to kill their morale..indeed if enemy go routing all his numbers goes useless...so whenever it is possible better to let them go routing than fighting each of them one by one ...
I'm a couple years late, but one thing that I need to ask about is Flaming Arrows. What do they do exactly? I suspect the extra damage is a myth and it's actually referring to DPS. No doubt it's doing morale dmg, but does it affect armor or damage? Many thanks for shedding light on all else! :)
@@thetowerproject3122 Thank you for the quick response! Early in an England campaign, I assaulted a town with palisade wall and they had Galloglaich at the gates. I shot their sides with regular and flaming arrows and they seem to drop numbers quicker with flaming arrows. I'm not sure if what I observed was a coincidence or flaming arrows have some sort of effect on armor.
A very good explanation - glad you made it. :) Though, could you explain how to get gunpowder units to fire? I feel like a lot of the time when they are on the walls, they just do not fire at all which is very unfortunate as often you'll need to use your ranged troops on the walls to thin the enemy army before they get inside.
@@thetowerproject3122 glad you're still around your content is very good.
24 дні тому
Polish Nobles have very high defensive skill, so much that they have more meele armor than General's bodyguard. And their shots pierce armor, so they are great general killers - you just need to attack from the back to avoid shields, then when ammo runs out, you can get them into combat.
Thanks. A few questions that I still have after scrolling through the first dozen comments--how do you count the effect if a group of spearman choose to go in schiltron formation in which way they always face you no matter where you attack? and how about one second after you charge into their back and some soldiers turn around to fight you face to face so that the effect of halfing the shield only last one second/one hit?
I believe defense skill also makes the block recovery faster. I tinkered with different units and I can definitely see the change. Low skill units are only blocking, high skill units are blocking and attacking back. That’s why two handed units are blocking all the time, they all have a very low defense skill. They can’t recover fast enough to attack.
@@diegoivan685 it's NOT a bug! Take any unit allegedly affected by that bug and just raise it's defense skill by 2 points. It will fare SIGNIFICANTLY better.
One minor note at 8:43, the engine doesnt calculate halves, it always rounds down, so the defense would be 17 if im not mistaken, minor point sorry to be nit picky.
Ok, does shield size matter? e.g. buckler vs heater vs kite? I heard it does. Or it's one more misunderstanding? 2. Maybe i missed this in this vid, but... how pavise work? Does it protect front like other shields (despite visually on back), or they protect back, unlike other shields? 2.1 Crossbowmen reload animation. Does it calculate as they really turned back for a while or it's just visual animation?
1. no shield size does not matter, just the value shown on the defense stats. 2 no pavise only protects front like normal shield, its just visual having it on the back. 3 I think so but not 100% sure
remember lads gunpowder 2 ranks deep with skirmish mode on use kneel fire instead of the stupid walking fire by rank nonsense allowing you to halve charging knight units before retreating behind your line as thier fire rate is like 3 times higher
Very nice vid! Could you perhaps explain how charge bonus affects the dice roll against defense? Lets say i have an attack of 5 and charge bonus of 4, does it mean that my dice roll is 0-9 or that my dice roll gets +4 after the roll (so creating a range of 4-9)? How long does the charge bonus last for?
Lets say 2 horse archers are shooting each other but one of the horse archers are running away and the other is chasing. Is the one who is running away going to get the shield bonus ? Note that when running away the archer on the horse makes that weird rotation in which he rotates his body towards the enemy to shoot his arrow.
trully, for a bullet, it matters not if you are a knight of 20 years of training or a dirty peasant with a pitchfork, it will pierce you the same regardless.
Ok, I thought this beloved game has a clearly dead community, nowadays. It is very nice that there are still pple caring for this game. I am a HUGE fan of M2TW. I was the basic developer of a mod of vanilla MTW2, which was called "La Guerre de Cent Ans". Ah, great times tweaking the defense of units and the such. Good video! You reminded me of the analysis I did with my friends back then edit> here you are, in case (thin chances!) you are interested in that mod: ua-cam.com/video/JfTM-phmVno/v-deo.html
That is nice an all but what is the hit chance of a 10 attack unit vs a 10 defene unit? how much value is it really to have more attack? does one attack raise the hit chance by 10 % 50 % 100% ??
24 дні тому
So if I attack someone from the back with crossbows it will have simmiliar effectiveness to mustkets? Good to know.
TLDW: (information from video 15:58): - muskets/firearms ignore shields and half the armor - armor piercing attacks ignore half the armor (how about shields?) - armor protects from all directions against all attacks (melee, missile) with reduced effectiveness against firearm and armor piercing attacks - shield protects: 100% front, 50% sides, 0% back and firearms (video doesn't mention shield vs armor piercing effectiveness!) - defense skill only works in melee This is the only video result in google when searching for "medieval 2 armor upgrade", and after spending 20 minutes listening repeatedly about the same basic concepts I still haven't learned anything about armor upgrade. It's good many people find the video "short and concise", but for "Expert Guide" level, I found it repetitive and tedious saying and re-summarizing the same concepts over and over. Just skip to 15:58 to get the last summary. Some questions: - what is the shield effectiveness against Armor piercing attacks? - How do the numbers work? What does 13 attack vs 13 defense mean? What does 13 vs 3 and 3 vs 13 mean? How do they impact the gameplay? - What do the armor upgrades do? Some sources cite that upgrading unarmored units to lvl1 padded armor gives them the actual padded armor protection (i.e. 4 armor) despite the game displaying 1 armor) - 14:50 why does the peasant damage of 1 matter against the archer missile damage of 5-6? That really confused me!
I think you are over thinking it man. 1. Shield just adds to the armor value in melee combat, doesnt have any other unique effects 2. its a dice rolling system, I dont know exactly how it works but the attack number rolls off against the defense number to determine the outcome Armor upgrades just add 1 point to the armor for each level, no other unique effects I think i meant peasnt defense of 1
The only thing I want to know is how the game treats uneven armor values when affected by AP attacks. If 13 armor is hit by an AP attack, that would be 6.5 effective armor. Does it count that as 6 armor or 7? Or does it just straight up use the 6.5 value? Not that it matters that much, I don't think. The difference between one point more or less of defense must be barely noticeable.
How do the general attack stat interact with the enemies total defense?. Ie the attack is 10, and the targets defense is 5. How does the math work out for damage/killing?
@@thetowerproject3122 What I mean is I thought if a unit climbs from the ladder on to the wall, at the moment he drops to the wall, his defense skill doesn't count. I could be wrong though.
@@90Rush Hmmm, never heard that theory before, i doubt it, as the main reason for units not being effective from ladders and towers is because only a fraction on their unit is on that wall, so essentially is like 8 feudal knights fighting 48 at a time, which is why they loose so bad.
Came here because I wanted to learn the mechanics of the base game so I can better understand the stats of units in the sub mod Divide and Conquer (DaC, a LotR mod). Thanks! Also, I assume the effective defense is the hit points of a unit? As in, a if a unit does 9 damage and a unit has 12 effective defense, then the unit would need to deal 9 damage twice before it overcomes the 12 effective defense and kill it? Also, the Hitpoints stat is how many times the unit has to be killed before actually dying? Such as, if it has 12 effective defense but 2 hitpoints, then the each soldier would need to be killed twice in order to actually die?
Actually it seems to be based on random chance and percentages. I've no idea what the numbers actually are, but let's say that a unit with an attack of 10 has a 50% chance of scoring a kill against a warrior with defence of 10. But because it's based on random chance it could take one attack or twenty attacks to actually achieve a kill, just like a random dice roll. Hitpoints simply count as how many lives the soldiers in a unit have. Also, warriors in melee have "turns" in a way. A defending unit has a chance of "parrying" an enemy attack, and if they successfully parry an attack they then receive attack priority over the other soldier, said parry depending on how high their defense skill is. They then become the attacker and the other warrior becomes the defender. Another thing this video didn't mention is that defense skill doesn't get taken into account if a warrior is attacked from behind. Means warriors can't parry attacks either if attacked from behind. As a final note, siege units seem to be the only type that can take multiple lives from a hit unit. Given that they can take down trolls and oliphaunts in a single hit in Divide and Conquer. So yeah, I'm here for the same reason you are. Wanted to better understand what's going on in the game and what all the numbers mean.
Rob Alexander I think u r probably right. Based on what Arachîr Galudirithon says in his vids and what is mentioned in this vid, I think u have probably summarized the mechanics better than me. Arachîr definitely says that a soldier’s animation can influence how effective they are in battle and that the same unit can be unequally effective based on which animation it is in. Thus, single soldiers often don’t get many, if any, kills when they r being effectively “stun-locked” by their taking damage animation. Thanks for the clarification!
@@RJALEXANDER777 I believe the siege unit damage is calculated down in the unit entry + the damage of the specific projectile listed in the projectile file. I have made ballista units to not be able to one shot standard infantry before, but if I remember correctly the flaming shot still did significant damage as the flaming ballista projectile’s damage was tied to the projectile entry, while the standard shot could be edited effectively by using only the ballista’s unit entry. I don’t therefore believe that the damage siege weapons do to multiple hp units is something hard coded like what is done with gunpowder units ignoring shield value and innate only to siege units
@@princeofhyrule2205 There are many things in the files that aren’t apparent through the stats in the in game interface: uni weapon speed affects how fast a unit can deliver attacks, slashing damage type weapons (which is used in DAC for all two handed units) negates 6 melee defense from all piercing damage type units (which encompasses most 1 handed swordsmen and all spear units), unit mass and a unit’s mount’s mass affects a units pushing power and damage on the charge, the “long_pike” trait that makes units practically impervious to cavalry charges from the front; all of these can be important underlying features that you may not otherwise know of. And also, from my experience the relentless animation speeds up melee combat as the unit doesn’t play out its normal kill animations meaning that while they will kill more quickly as they don’t have to go through an animation to do so. It also opens them up to reengage in melee combat, which can be scary at times for units hosting a general
Anyone has any idea how does the chance of scoring a killing blow works in M2? for example 5 atk vs 5 def is 50% or some other number? what about 5 atk vs 20 def? also, does AP really gets you .5 armor values? or does it get rounded up/down?
Hey, will you come back, do you have a new channel? I enjoy your content, would like to see more, if you wont come back can you answer this so i dont keep my hope alive?
@@thetowerproject3122 Does the armor act as the feudal knights health? And does the shield subtract 6 from the arrow damage or does it divide the damage by 6?
![Improving Authority - A Guide to Traits and Retinue in Medieval II Total War [Vanilla]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZX720YZDqxU/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you all for your continued support! Please enjoy this video on the proper understanding of Armor and Armor Piercing stats in Medieval 2 Total War!
how to use pike and shot tactics in medieval 2 vs backwards armies full of dismounted feudal knights or similar?
One caveat to your video is I believe gunpowder units specifically round down when dividing in half. So actually the venetian infantry in your example would have 3 defense not 3.5.
What about "hit point" ??
@@lolol3112 In Rome and M2 all units have only 1 hitpoint, only exception is the General(the bodyguards also have a 2 hitpoint hidden stat as well) which has quite a lot of hitpoints + extra from traits and ancilliaries.
Maybe elephants also have extra hitpoints but I am not sure.
I really wish developers would actually write full effects of units ingame such as gunpowder ignoring shields. A more readable game is a better game imo. It's so silly not to put it in.
Agreed, it is written in the game, just in the files,
@Oscar Strokosz Couldn't agree more, if they'd keep the old system untouched and just improve pathfinding, unit responsiveness and visuals it'd be epic. Went back to Medieval 2 after playing WH2 and haven't played any of the new ones except Atilla and Empire since. DAC mod is amazingly good if you're into Tolkein stuff too or Stainless Steel for historical if you ain't into fantasy. Both add loads of new mechanics and improve the AI (though sadly even then it falls short).
Also I think armour piercing should come in different degrees. By the end medieval period armour had gotten so good that only firearms were only ranged weapons that could reliably go through through armour
ua-cam.com/video/DBxdTkddHaE/v-deo.html
@@RocketHarry865 true that would be nice, but it's such an old game that you can't really change that
No you don't, look at the crap in later titles. They write stuff that isn't true, they mess up, they fill your screen with BS. You don't want that.
Just experiment and find out what works. That's why my gaming generation is superior over yours. You want to be spoon fed everything
Late period units losing their shield because gunpowder ignores shield value completely makes so much sense... this game is such a great simulation.
Most shields were wooden , A bullet would literally completly ignore it irl
Until you get to close combat.
I played medieval for almost 8 years, I knew there was some kind of difference but never knew how. Thanks
Lots of very useful info here! Thanks for posting it Shewey.
Fun fact: Musketeers and Arquebusiers have a fire by rank animation when put on skirmish mode. One rank will kneel and fire while the other reloads, while without skirmish mode one man shoots and then runs behind the other as he reloads and takes his place. Besides getting the first shot off, skirmish mode activated on these unit tends to speed up their firing rate and can be a good way to get an advantage in a gun-based skirmish. : )
Thanks Wafflez, i'm sure that information will make it into a future gunpowder video :)
Yes, it is 100% true and 100% annoying because, in Skirmish mode, they run away if anything blows a kiss in their direction and, if actually truly threatened, they never run far enough away (true of all skirmishing units, except maybe Cavalry Archers threatened by Infantry) to actually even fire a single volley before they have to skirmish-away again … Brave Sir Robin, Brave Sir Robin, Sir Robin the Very-Brave, please tell me: why haven't my guns used any of their ammunition?
With skirmish-mode off, as The Waffles-of-many-waffles-names says, the second rank does not even prepare to fire until after the first rank has moved out of the way, the second rank has advanced to firing position, and the first rank has crouched to reload: if they receive counter-fire that causes casualties during this operation, they will reform again, to compensate for the missing man … walking around and around like tin soldiers in a shooting-gallery, never shooting back.
Oy vay! These factors are part of what makes Musketeers/PortArquebusiers (also Elephant Gunners?) so much better than plain Arquebusiers: they waste less time in pointless, unending, reforming/skirmishing.
Against gunners: if they're skirmishing (firing-by-rank, as Waffles describes), run a 'drive-by' (don't charge/engage) with fast cavalry, behind them: aside from not getting yourself shot to pieces, the enemy will skirmish toward your other advancing troops, which will force them to skirmish away again; not skirmishing, focus counter-fire on the same unit to neutralize it with incessant reforming.
Interestingly (and possibly usefully), a musket-type unit on skirmish mode will use the 2 rank fire animation even if they're more than 2 ranks deep. Meanwhile, if they're _not_ on skirmish mode, they will do the fire and withdraw animation, resulting in the entire unit slowly retiring. This can be annoying in sieges, especially, where it can be next to impossible to form 2 rank deep formations in the streets. However, if you can manage to prevent the enemy getting close enough to trigger the skirmish behaviour, keeping the unit on skirmish mode can allow for a constant stream of musket balls and prevent the unit from moving themselves out of position.
Fun fact the handgunners are always on fire by rank
@@derkylos For some dumb reason, this applies when attacking over a bridge (so far as I can recall this does not demand Skirmish-mode): attacking over a bridge, if you can protect your gunners, otherwise (say, an entire army of mostly-retinue-longbowmen), a player can simply push (slowly) across the bridge ...
For maximum fun(tm): use a mounted gunpowder units (spanish dragoons, camel gunners, reiters, mounted thunder braves) - they can fire above the heads of infantry in front of them, ingore all but half of armor and can outrun almost everything in game. What's more, gunpowder cav can fire in its entire units, not just front 2-3 ranks. And because you fire over the head of infantry, you can apply that gunpowder morale penalty right before the ranks clash.
You can also do this with mounted crossbows, though it's a lot less effective.
Apaches are especially brutal when doing this, koitsenkoos, shaman warcry and mounted thunder braves stack on so many penalites most units rout the second they touch your front ranks.
Ah sh*t my exploitation has been revealed
It never would have occurred to me to have Reiters 'swoop-in' behind my own threatened Infantry line(s): break those attackers then, "danke schoen, Herrs Reiters, you may now return to your regularly-scheduled duties".
Reiters can be even more fun than I thought.
In Rome Total War, the military guide tells you that shields only work from the left flank. I guess that's the source of the misconceptions.
yes didn't expect that they changed that
I've read (on twcenter forum, I believe) that 3.5 armour would be 3. There are no halves, it's rounded down to whole numbers.
Cool guide.
2 things to bring up though:
1: Gunpowder ignoring shields must be something hardcoded. Since they use the same type of AP as every other AP unit in the files. So it's more of a seperate innate ability of them rather than part of the AP ability.
2: This wasn't addressed in the video. But it's worth bringing up. Armour upgrades and attack upgrades (not chevrons, the attack upgrade only) give a +2 stat increase instead of a +1 stat increase like the game tells you. For example if a unit with 5 armour gets and upgrade and it shows 6 it's actually 7. If you get another upgrade for the same unit it will show 7 but it will actually be 9.
I never knew that, nor have I heard it before, that sounds really cool and potentially helpful, do you have a source for that info I can look up?
As far as I know, the upgrades from blacksmith building don't actually provide you with set armour value. They just give your units the next tier armour. For example, tanned leather is 4 armour value, but light chainmail is 5. Check out the armour section in this useful guide : steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=909957531
@@thetowerproject3122 Armour upgrades are always a +2.5 upgrade. Regardless of armor level or original value.
@@emperorofthegreatunknown4394
Its +1 just do it in game, a unit with 10 armor then with a bronze armor upgrade will have 11, I need a source if people are going to say other than what the game shows
@@thetowerproject3122 www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?102625-Armor-weapon-upgrade-questions-comments&p=1823215#post1823215 Modders have researched this, and it appears to greater than 2 and less than 3. You can test it pretty easily, put 10 armor upgraded dismounted feudal knights against 10 non-upgraded dismounted chivalric knights. You will see the feudals will prevail. Do the same test with upgraded sergeant spearmen vs Armored Sergeants.
AP+Gunpowder = -75% shield and -75% armour
Gunpowder alone = -0% armour and -50% shield
AP alone = -50% shield and -50% armour
In case anyone wondered about the actual code doing this
Can you give a source?
@@ashurarbaces8069 The game's code itself
@@Irgendjemandlol Wich part? I've actually modded this game and I'm 99% sure it's not in any of the unpacked files. Or did someone manage to decompile the .exe?
@@ashurarbaces8069 Yes iam talking about the assembly code of the exe.
@@Irgendjemandlol Can you link the code somewhere?
Everyone who plays this game needs to see this video. I wish there was more videos like this.
I'm glad you talk-people-through these mechanics. Some folks, even reviewing the FAUST, might not apprehend all of the implications; good job.
I'll add this: Attack > Defense, the 2 stats do not 'cancel each other out'; were this untrue, Armored Sergeants (Att7/Def14) would never be able to kill each other.
I think it works somewhat like AC in D&D post 3rd edition. That is, there's a RNG added to the attack stat and, if the total exceeds the defence, a hit is landed (don't take this as gospel, though. My M2TW technical knowledge was acquired a _long_ time ago...)
@@derkylos I don't know post-3rd-edition D&D but, certainly, your supposition makes sense. I wanted to leave-out any reference to RNG simply because I wanted to make a concise point: of course the RNG is relevant and I think your analogy likely 'hits the issue on the head'; thank you; good job!
not tryna say anything bad about medieval or anyone, but thank god for Warhammer's complex-ass damage calculating system. Knowing what unit cards mean in Warhammer have made this so much easier to comprehend. Like seriously, every time someone swings at someone else, like 5 calculations have to be made by the ai. still, medieval doesn't do a very good job at explaining stats and I'm glad you made this vid.
Thanks for the great video, subscribed.The system is similar to Rome 2 but in rome 2 the unit stats and details are more clear and shown, while in med 2 is only in description like "does piercing damage" lol thats all. Such a pity the developers did not fix some bugs in the definitive edition that would cost them few effort like make pikes work fine, show more details in unit stats, fix cav pushthrough bug, and also allow formation change like rome ctrl+forward/back/left/right keys. Then med 2 would be super awesome.
I play and stream Medieval 2 a lot but never was interested in competitive or in detail, this video was suggested to me by youtube so great channel you got for in-detail mechanics of this game
My highlights from the video:
11:21 - all gunpowder units ignore the shield defense
This system is completely different from Rome 2. In Rome 2 simulation done per squad, not per soldier.
Gotta tell ya, Shewey, I think this is an excellent video.
I've been playing this game (it's the only game I have time for) for 5 years now off and on. I took a year or so away from the game because I was spending too much time on it. My playing time is limited now but I sure enjoy a good siege once in a while.
After becoming somewhat recognized by some who play this game, several clans asked me to come and join their ranks. I was offered training by those in the clans. For various reasons I declined these nice offers. One of the main reasons I didn't join was that I didn't want to spend time on training. I just wanted to play and hopefully learn a few tips in order to be somewhat competitive. The main reason for playing this game was to try to keep my mind sharp. I'm one of the older players but I'm not to the point of doing word find puzzles or coloring books for the elderly (and I never want to be). I wasn't born with a mouse in my hands like so many of the younger players here so I found a few strategies that helped me win a game or two against younger and quicker players.
I've seen a few of the videos made by each of the M2TW UA-camrs. Your channel is very new but it already has content I have seen nowhere else. As a defensive player, I've always looked at the defensive numbers of units but I have never learned what you have taught in this video. I know all of the top tier players know these things and most of them are kind enough to let me play with them but my priorities lie elsewhere so I don't have time to dig up information like this or even study it at great length.
The videos you have posted thus far make it obvious why you are one of the top tier players. Since I try to use strategies to make up for my lack of quickness, this video was very helpful. I will probably watch it weekly until I understand it all well enough to be useful.
Thank you for being willing to share this information.
God's blessings...
(Matt. 6:33)
Thank's so much Lav, I'm glad you are enjoying the videos, and if you pick up a thing or two, that validates my work eve more!
Wow I’m glad I clicked this video. I just downloaded Medival 2 on my iPhone and I needed to Know this!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks man
thank you man. played for 15 years. and yet hand no idea or right understanding
Tried to explain this numerous times to Pixelated Apollo that the later period forces of France especially their cavalry were fully armored but used no shield simply because of the uselessness of it against gunpowder.
Great video! Simple and straight to the point, love it!
This is the best playlist for learning this game
Excellent. I must browse your other videos. What I have been wondering is what does “5 Attk vs 6 Def” actually mean. How are the results is the attack actually calculated? I know that it doesn’t really make any difference to my gameplay (i.e., take the most advantageous position available and try to kill whatever is in front of you) but I’m curious.
Fantastic video. Great job, looking forward to the rest
Thanks, always wondered about this. Been playing for many years.
I should train more mounted crossbowman.
nice breakdown. i'm still learning this game in 2021
WONDERFULL EXPLANATION....after years of battle of course I realized that hitting or attacking ANY unit from flanks and rears IS better...now I know PERFECT details for THAT....I am just sorry you forgot to mention details on how flaming missiles impact with numbers here...that would 'complete' this great video knowledge ! :)
That will be a separate video but the basic of it is flaming missiles do exactly the same damage as regular missiles but are slower to reload and apply a moral penalty.
@@thetowerproject3122 ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...I was SURE about moral penalty....fire scares much more...but I also had impression that could provide more damage...but just an impression, I never run a serious testing here...it's an important factor sometimes to try to kill their morale..indeed if enemy go routing all his numbers goes useless...so whenever it is possible better to let them go routing than fighting each of them one by one ...
I'm a couple years late, but one thing that I need to ask about is Flaming Arrows.
What do they do exactly?
I suspect the extra damage is a myth and it's actually referring to DPS.
No doubt it's doing morale dmg, but does it affect armor or damage?
Many thanks for shedding light on all else! :)
I think it is only moral damage, the missile damage is the same, but that is just my best guess.
@@thetowerproject3122 Thank you for the quick response!
Early in an England campaign, I assaulted a town with palisade wall and they had Galloglaich at the gates.
I shot their sides with regular and flaming arrows and they seem to drop numbers quicker with flaming arrows.
I'm not sure if what I observed was a coincidence or flaming arrows have some sort of effect on armor.
A very good explanation - glad you made it. :) Though, could you explain how to get gunpowder units to fire? I feel like a lot of the time when they are on the walls, they just do not fire at all which is very unfortunate as often you'll need to use your ranged troops on the walls to thin the enemy army before they get inside.
Yes, I plan to make a specific video about that.
@@thetowerproject3122 Did you?
@@Seth9809 Not quite yet
@@thetowerproject3122 glad you're still around your content is very good.
Polish Nobles have very high defensive skill, so much that they have more meele armor than General's bodyguard. And their shots pierce armor, so they are great general killers - you just need to attack from the back to avoid shields, then when ammo runs out, you can get them into combat.
After thousand hours now i learn it
I have discovered this video once again. Thank you for demistifying this detail of the game.
Pah-vaise not Pavis old boy, when referring to the crossbow men.
Great video, very useful.
Thanks for posting.
But there’s some serious maths issues at 10:56 where somehow 6+3.5=10.5 🙃
Thanks. A few questions that I still have after scrolling through the first dozen comments--how do you count the effect if a group of spearman choose to go in schiltron formation in which way they always face you no matter where you attack? and how about one second after you charge into their back and some soldiers turn around to fight you face to face so that the effect of halfing the shield only last one second/one hit?
That I am not sure about. I think it is on an individual soldier basis, ie which way they are facing.
I believe defense skill also makes the block recovery faster. I tinkered with different units and I can definitely see the change. Low skill units are only blocking, high skill units are blocking and attacking back. That’s why two handed units are blocking all the time, they all have a very low defense skill. They can’t recover fast enough to attack.
Are you aware of the two-handed vanilla bug? You are probably incorrect about your hypothesis if you're not.
@@diegoivan685 it's NOT a bug! Take any unit allegedly affected by that bug and just raise it's defense skill by 2 points. It will fare SIGNIFICANTLY better.
What about pavies crossbows who have shields on there backs?
Thanks!
One minor note at 8:43, the engine doesnt calculate halves, it always rounds down, so the defense would be 17 if im not mistaken, minor point sorry to be nit picky.
You're not being nit picky at all, I was wondering and hoping to hear an answer to this very question, does the engine round up or down with ap?
Well done sir
Great video thankyou
Ok, does shield size matter? e.g. buckler vs heater vs kite? I heard it does. Or it's one more misunderstanding?
2. Maybe i missed this in this vid, but... how pavise work? Does it protect front like other shields (despite visually on back), or they protect back, unlike other shields?
2.1 Crossbowmen reload animation. Does it calculate as they really turned back for a while or it's just visual animation?
1. no shield size does not matter, just the value shown on the defense stats. 2 no pavise only protects front like normal shield, its just visual having it on the back. 3 I think so but not 100% sure
great video thank you for making
God I love this stuff, thank you for making it
remember lads gunpowder 2 ranks deep with skirmish mode on use kneel fire instead of the stupid walking fire by rank nonsense allowing you to halve charging knight units before retreating behind your line as thier fire rate is like 3 times higher
Very nice vid! Could you perhaps explain how charge bonus affects the dice roll against defense? Lets say i have an attack of 5 and charge bonus of 4, does it mean that my dice roll is 0-9 or that my dice roll gets +4 after the roll (so creating a range of 4-9)? How long does the charge bonus last for?
Charge bonus lasts for as long as the tool tip is shown when you mouse over the unit, other stuff i am not sure.
Thanks.
Lets say 2 horse archers are shooting each other but one of the horse archers are running away and the other is chasing. Is the one who is running away going to get the shield bonus ? Note that when running away the archer on the horse makes that weird rotation in which he rotates his body towards the enemy to shoot his arrow.
trully, for a bullet, it matters not if you are a knight of 20 years of training or a dirty peasant with a pitchfork, it will pierce you the same regardless.
I'm from the future and I'm wondering if later or previous games have armor work the same way?
Ok, I thought this beloved game has a clearly dead community, nowadays. It is very nice that there are still pple caring for this game. I am a HUGE fan of M2TW. I was the basic developer of a mod of vanilla MTW2, which was called "La Guerre de Cent Ans". Ah, great times tweaking the defense of units and the such. Good video! You reminded me of the analysis I did with my friends back then
edit>
here you are, in case (thin chances!) you are interested in that mod:
ua-cam.com/video/JfTM-phmVno/v-deo.html
tip top video. Thankyou
thanks man.
There's a reason to the saying "the first invention to make men equal was gunpowder"
I'd like to find a vid or doc about how offensive and defensive stats subtract from each other
"The Faust" pdf has totally different (lower) stats. Anyone knows why?
That is nice an all but what is the hit chance of a 10 attack unit vs a 10 defene unit?
how much value is it really to have more attack? does one attack raise the hit chance by 10 % 50 % 100% ??
So if I attack someone from the back with crossbows it will have simmiliar effectiveness to mustkets? Good to know.
Is defensive skill unchanged when melee attacked from rear/flanks?
I believe so
TLDW: (information from video 15:58):
- muskets/firearms ignore shields and half the armor
- armor piercing attacks ignore half the armor (how about shields?)
- armor protects from all directions against all attacks (melee, missile) with reduced effectiveness against firearm and armor piercing attacks
- shield protects: 100% front, 50% sides, 0% back and firearms (video doesn't mention shield vs armor piercing effectiveness!)
- defense skill only works in melee
This is the only video result in google when searching for "medieval 2 armor upgrade", and after spending 20 minutes listening repeatedly about the same basic concepts I still haven't learned anything about armor upgrade.
It's good many people find the video "short and concise", but for "Expert Guide" level, I found it repetitive and tedious saying and re-summarizing the same concepts over and over. Just skip to 15:58 to get the last summary.
Some questions:
- what is the shield effectiveness against Armor piercing attacks?
- How do the numbers work? What does 13 attack vs 13 defense mean? What does 13 vs 3 and 3 vs 13 mean? How do they impact the gameplay?
- What do the armor upgrades do? Some sources cite that upgrading unarmored units to lvl1 padded armor gives them the actual padded armor protection (i.e. 4 armor) despite the game displaying 1 armor)
- 14:50 why does the peasant damage of 1 matter against the archer missile damage of 5-6? That really confused me!
I think you are over thinking it man.
1. Shield just adds to the armor value in melee combat, doesnt have any other unique effects
2. its a dice rolling system, I dont know exactly how it works but the attack number rolls off against the defense number to determine the outcome
Armor upgrades just add 1 point to the armor for each level, no other unique effects
I think i meant peasnt defense of 1
What about the varangian guard they have shield on their back so, will shooting them from the back will less damage ?
No, that is just an aesthetic.
@@thetowerproject3122 Thank you ! Now I can use those units without hesitation.
@@thetowerproject3122 Then I believe Pavise crosbowman must also get the shield bonus while in melee and while shooting.
The only thing I want to know is how the game treats uneven armor values when affected by AP attacks. If 13 armor is hit by an AP attack, that would be 6.5 effective armor. Does it count that as 6 armor or 7? Or does it just straight up use the 6.5 value? Not that it matters that much, I don't think. The difference between one point more or less of defense must be barely noticeable.
I would also like to know that
Does melee attacks on flank ignore or give a 50% debuff to shield too ? How does that work ?
How does the pavesee works?
The reduction from behind is apply there?
No, its just visual, it acts as a normal sheild
@@thetowerproject3122 so, when they shoot they've applied 100% of shield defense and when they are recharging they have a 0%?
Thanks for answering
@@albertogarciaprieto4637 No, the shield bonus applies all the time, the animation does not affect their defense.
@@thetowerproject3122 Thanks!
Shewey, are you sure that Half means a decimal place?
Or would 7 instead be reduced to either 3 armor or 4 armor :)
No idea, I would imagine it is probably not a decimal place.
Would bet on whole numbers rounding up. Ap is pretty scary until you learn about slashing damage
How do the general attack stat interact with the enemies total defense?. Ie the attack is 10, and the targets defense is 5. How does the math work out for damage/killing?
I thought when a unit is climbing a ladder, it loses its defense skill? Is that the case?
I dont think missiles can hit men while they climb ladders, havnt tested it.
@@thetowerproject3122 What I mean is I thought if a unit climbs from the ladder on to the wall, at the moment he drops to the wall, his defense skill doesn't count.
I could be wrong though.
*against melee hits from defenders on the wall.
@@90Rush Hmmm, never heard that theory before, i doubt it, as the main reason for units not being effective from ladders and towers is because only a fraction on their unit is on that wall, so essentially is like 8 feudal knights fighting 48 at a time, which is why they loose so bad.
I believe defenders get morale bonuses when fighting on the walls or in the settlement so there’s that
Came here because I wanted to learn the mechanics of the base game so I can better understand the stats of units in the sub mod Divide and Conquer (DaC, a LotR mod). Thanks!
Also, I assume the effective defense is the hit points of a unit? As in, a if a unit does 9 damage and a unit has 12 effective defense, then the unit would need to deal 9 damage twice before it overcomes the 12 effective defense and kill it? Also, the Hitpoints stat is how many times the unit has to be killed before actually dying? Such as, if it has 12 effective defense but 2 hitpoints, then the each soldier would need to be killed twice in order to actually die?
Actually it seems to be based on random chance and percentages. I've no idea what the numbers actually are, but let's say that a unit with an attack of 10 has a 50% chance of scoring a kill against a warrior with defence of 10. But because it's based on random chance it could take one attack or twenty attacks to actually achieve a kill, just like a random dice roll. Hitpoints simply count as how many lives the soldiers in a unit have.
Also, warriors in melee have "turns" in a way. A defending unit has a chance of "parrying" an enemy attack, and if they successfully parry an attack they then receive attack priority over the other soldier, said parry depending on how high their defense skill is. They then become the attacker and the other warrior becomes the defender. Another thing this video didn't mention is that defense skill doesn't get taken into account if a warrior is attacked from behind. Means warriors can't parry attacks either if attacked from behind.
As a final note, siege units seem to be the only type that can take multiple lives from a hit unit. Given that they can take down trolls and oliphaunts in a single hit in Divide and Conquer. So yeah, I'm here for the same reason you are. Wanted to better understand what's going on in the game and what all the numbers mean.
Rob Alexander I think u r probably right. Based on what Arachîr Galudirithon says in his vids and what is mentioned in this vid, I think u have probably summarized the mechanics better than me. Arachîr definitely says that a soldier’s animation can influence how effective they are in battle and that the same unit can be unequally effective based on which animation it is in. Thus, single soldiers often don’t get many, if any, kills when they r being effectively “stun-locked” by their taking damage animation. Thanks for the clarification!
@@RJALEXANDER777 I believe the siege unit damage is calculated down in the unit entry + the damage of the specific projectile listed in the projectile file. I have made ballista units to not be able to one shot standard infantry before, but if I remember correctly the flaming shot still did significant damage as the flaming ballista projectile’s damage was tied to the projectile entry, while the standard shot could be edited effectively by using only the ballista’s unit entry. I don’t therefore believe that the damage siege weapons do to multiple hp units is something hard coded like what is done with gunpowder units ignoring shield value and innate only to siege units
@@princeofhyrule2205 There are many things in the files that aren’t apparent through the stats in the in game interface: uni weapon speed affects how fast a unit can deliver attacks, slashing damage type weapons (which is used in DAC for all two handed units) negates 6 melee defense from all piercing damage type units (which encompasses most 1 handed swordsmen and all spear units), unit mass and a unit’s mount’s mass affects a units pushing power and damage on the charge, the “long_pike” trait that makes units practically impervious to cavalry charges from the front; all of these can be important underlying features that you may not otherwise know of. And also, from my experience the relentless animation speeds up melee combat as the unit doesn’t play out its normal kill animations meaning that while they will kill more quickly as they don’t have to go through an animation to do so. It also opens them up to reengage in melee combat, which can be scary at times for units hosting a general
Anyone has any idea how does the chance of scoring a killing blow works in M2? for example 5 atk vs 5 def is 50% or some other number? what about 5 atk vs 20 def?
also, does AP really gets you .5 armor values? or does it get rounded up/down?
Hey, will you come back, do you have a new channel? I enjoy your content, would like to see more, if you wont come back can you answer this so i dont keep my hope alive?
But does anyone know the exact formula that calculates the attack's effect? Is that Attack/(Attack + Defence) = hit probability?
Very good video 👍👍
👍👍
So if an archer shot a feudal knight in the back they would die from one arrow?
Its a dice roll so not necessarily, but a good chance
@@thetowerproject3122 Does the armor act as the feudal knights health? And does the shield subtract 6 from the arrow damage or does it divide the damage by 6?
@@threebythestreet No its a dice roll x vs y
Pavise crossbow men fighting in melee and javelin men missle attacking from behind 😉
Yeah but, what about cannons ? You didn't mention their armor piercing 🤔
i thought gunpowder ignored shields, at least according to this video
Love to sub
The way you pronounce “Pavise” pains me.