If you’re playing Ganondorf, it all boils down to whether your opponent underestimates you and plays stupidly or they actually know how to dodge a 70 frame attack.
He’s a fundamentals check. Can you floor tech side B? Can you properly edge guard and avoid getting stage spiked from up B? Can you spot dodge up tilt? If you can 95% of the time, you invalidate a huge portion of his kit. Turns out pros have killer fundamentals.
Gannon knows all he has is power. He's been trying to get wisdom and courage for over 30 years but Link and Zelda just won't give him those pieces of the triforce, that's the whole plot of legend of zelda!
Ganondorf is the most fun character to play in my opinion , and watching somebody highly skilled with him play and kickass is just rad , and he may be low teir but that just makes it even better when he does win a battle
Ganondorf's main strategy seems to me to be acting like a complete asshole, going for stupid attacks like uptilt ledge traps, warlock punches, and Ganoncide. Go watch Bizzarro Flame, that dude was nuts.
Something really funny about Ganondorf is that although he does a huge amount of damage with each attack, his combo game is so bad that he actually does surprisingly mediocre damage in practice, such as doing only around 40% off of a low% combo
The character isn't built around combos, he's mostly built around getting a few stray hits that do stupid damage. A single Nair will do like 21% I think? Fundamentally he's supposed to be a very simple brawler, they just have him an absurd number of weaknesses because they were afraid of him being the casual stomping character (which he is).
Considering that Gandondorf can literally fly in Ocarina of Time his terrible recovery seems really harsh. Honestly, having the ability to act out of Aerial Flame Choke would fix many of his problems.
They should give him the projectiles he throws in OoT as well. Not sure why a guy that can fly and shoots projectiles in their source game can't jump or shoot anything in Smash.
The float comes from ocarina of time where you face off against Ganondorf at the end he overs above you in that pose while you play dead man’s volley to knock him down. That REALLY would fix him I think
@@nickel7o740 I have no idea bc as much as I love smash I’ve not been able to add mods to any previous games, sounds appropriate though for the dead mans volley
@@williamwest9204 That doesn't mean they didn't give him love or do what they could with him, because they did. It cannot be helped that other characters are inherently just better than him by default no matter what you do, but there is also the case of Phantom Ganon, which is an entirely different character that uses magic instead of his usual brawly fighting style in the Smash games. The developers of PM did more for him than Nintendo ever have, but the official Smash games did give him his best move, Flame Choke, so I give credit where credit is due.
I've only played smash recently with my cousins over the holidays. I literally only won with Ganon. Played him Kazuya and Sephiroth. Tried Ken but sucked with him.
There's a good reason why Light didn't go offstage against Ganon, and that's because Ganon's aerials have more range than any of his moves, and the fact that they come out much faster than it appears. Ganon is truly bottom 3, but those aerials do hurt real bad. Only time it's generally safe to challenge or go offstage against Ganon is if you have a good disjoint, a projectile, or if he's relatively far offstage.
if he throws out a single aerial, while it will deal a lot of damage and potentially stage spike, chances are his dogshit recovery won't reach the ledge because of the time he wasted. if you see a ganon double jump i'd say it's safe to edgeguard him even with someone like wario
Ganon's aerials are indeed very good and some of THE best in the game, but his abysmal aerial speed prevent him from making the most out of them, sadly.
Its amazing how Bowser gets a redesign and a run speed leagues faster than his Melee/Brawl counterpart. But Ganon's the exception from any loyal changes that reflect from his series. He knows magic and faster sword skills. The mod that has Ganon as a mage and sworduser seperately is how to do it right. Or, idk, give Ganon a way to reflect/absorb projectiles.
Turning one or more of his attacks into projectile reflectors would be the simplest "loyal to the source" change they could make, yet they've refused to do it in game after game.
Better framedata (not a big ask, especially for the multiple joke moves he has), making his Wizfoot deny projectiles (to make it more distinct from choke and help against spam) and let him chain specials without the ill-thought freefall (to make his recovery and positioning more passable). Bam, three easy changes and Ganon is an actual character again.
@@BainesMkII - The best thing would be like what the mod in the video showed: the ability to float in the air for mixups, but also give that same ability a reflector like his fight in OoT... which is incidentally exactly what he had in PM.
Ironic that the villain who’s been memed to come back in almost every Zelda game in some way also can’t come back whenever he’s knocked off the stage in Smash.
One thing I'd like to mention regarding the point you made of Ganon feeling like an echo of Falcon: Sakurai never wants to change a character so much that the playerbase doesn't "recognize" the character anymore which is why Ganon will always be this bad Falcon as long as Sakurai makes Smash games. Ganon was a last minute add on to the Melee roster afaik which is why he ended up the way he did in the first place. If they only added him to Brawl...he probably would have been more like a warlock and less like a drunk tavernbrawler
I do love this drunk tavern brawler though... He's unironically my favorite character on the roster and he's always fit me so well. I'd be devasted if they completely axed this moveset. I think what they could do is keep his normals, but change his specials. Even simply giving him a Peach levitate and swapping Warlock Punch for Dead Man's Volley would go so far in making him more mage-like. It'd encompass all forms of Ganon: a brutal, sword-wielding warlock. Or, do what many suggest and give this brawler moveset to F-Zero's Black Shadow; it would fit SO well on that cheesy badass. It only makes sense that the Falcon semi-clone should actually be related to Falcon lol. Then they could go fully original with Ganon. Make him the OP mage everyone desires!
@@RacingSnails64 or they could just introduce a second Ganondorf. Like TP Ganondorf for example. I mean we literally have 3 Links and 2 Zeldas. Having one 'traditional' Ganondorf and one that's actually closer to the source material seems not out of question. Thing is, you can't really hype this added fighter up in trailers for the upcoming game. Dunno if that's a reason for the devs not to do that
After Tears of the Kingdom.... Bruh, they really need to reboot his Smash appearance to be more in-line with the Weapon Master / Warlock of that game, as for his old moveset, F-Zero's Deathborn could easily take it as Captain Falcon's Echo, the dude even has a big energy sword and a choke attack in GX's cutscenes!
To kind of illustrate on how bad Ganondorf has it in Ultimate, something to note about SSB4 Ganondorf is that the character was known for having a surprising good amount of representation for a perceived bottom tier character. Adom, Gungnir, Rickles, Ray Kalm... some iconic faces in the Ganondorf community. Gungnir notably got 17th at Umebura Japan Major 2017 while beating Earth, yuzu, and kept. Not great results overall (he is low tier for a reason), but surprisingly good for what he is. In Ultimate, Ganondorf doesn't really have any of this. There is the Nairo vs Light set, but that was a one-time surprise counterpick that happened near the start of the game's life. When that one set is pretty much Ganondorf's only real contribution to the Ultimate metagame, then you know that your character has a lot of problems. There is Rickles, but his results are sparse and frankly not too great for being the only high-level active player for the character. Everyone else mentioned above has been either inactive/semi-active, or entirely dedicated to online play. In other words, Ganondorf (and Mii Swordfighter) is pretty much the only Smash Ultimate character is be virtually irrelevant in high level play throughout the entire duration of Smash Ultimate's life, a fall from even what he did in SSB4.
It could be fine if they gave him something, anything, to counteract that deficit to a reasonable degree, but all of the supposed good points are too little and implemented in such a way that they are no benefit at all in the end. For example, he has weight to offset his speed. Well, his high weight combines with his large hitbox and nonexistent defensive options to make him pretty much the easiest combo punching bag in the game, which means he's not heavy at all as a sum. Then they give him an instalose of a recovery as a bonus to make him, a superheavy, into plausibly the most fragile character in the game. Who thought that this was in any way ok? Tl;Dr: Taking speed isn't really the problem, but massively undervaluing the worth of that speed and not considering the ramifications of taking it away *at all* is.
Look up "Tankscraper VS Spamtracks" for a character choice with the lowest tactical mobility in the involved game up against an infamous character choice with an actually hacked for min-maxing setup.
I think he's said he doesn't want to change characters too much from how we've come to know them. It's a combination of maintaining their recognizability + being snuck into Melee as a semi-clone. Unfortunate circumstance. I don't think Ganon's moveset is too far off though. Give him a Peach levitate and swap Dead Man's Volley with Warlock Punch and he'd be pretty damn close to what he should be. A powerful, sword-wielding warlock. I'd also be fine with them putting this Falcon clone moveset on Black Shadow from F-Zero, and going fully original with Ganon. Perhaps if there's a Smash reboot after Ultimate!
Sakurai doesn't like changing characters too much once they're in. Ganondorf being brought in as a semi-clone of Captain Falcon means he's been more or less defined since Melee, with only incremental changes being allowed Only reason Luigi is so different from Mario at this point is because he's been incrementally changed since 64, and Mario's had a few significant changes of his own as well.
Melee was a famously rushed game, evident by additions such as Dr Mario and Ganon was made a heavier capt. falcon for this reason, I bet he just never got around to reworking him.
The mod you showed would definitely make Ganondorf better representative of how he is in his home series and better on the tier list. If we had to stick with the moves he has now, I would like to see three changes to buff him. The first is the projectile invincibility on down b that you and Mockrock mentioned and the other two would change side b to not send into freefall and to have the opponent die first. I think with those three changes, Ganondorf would at least be mid-tier and be better represented in tournaments.
Eh, honestly I doubt it’d be enough to get him out of low tier. Even if you don’t edge guard him, it’s still really easy to camp with projectiles. Even if wizard’s foot could power through a full charge shot, I don’t think it’d matter because it has more endlag than change shot so you could still punish it.
@thunderd7904 well, depending on your range, it would still hit opponents. The utility and potential of having wizard's foot be invincible to all projectiles is fantastic in any instance, regardless. Ganondorf doesn't have any good ways to get in on semi-competent zoners. However, the above change would give him an actual mix-up in approaching zoners. A Samus charging charge shot now has to consider whether Ganon will approach with a wiz kick or with a jump, giving both players pause in what Ganon will do in this interaction. Though wiz kick wouldn't be spectacular, the added ability to counter zoning would be a boon to his kit.
@@mrmediocre848 I mean, I think it’d help, but I don’t think it’s nearly enough to prevent him from getting camped out. If you attached a reflecting property on it, then maybe Ganondorf could actually jump to mid tier
Gannnon requires the rest of the triforce not to suck. You need the wisdom to know exactly what your opponent will do next and the courage to actually commit to the crimes on framedata that are his attacks.
Neutral B is a scrub killer, up tilt is even scrubbier, and side B would be useful if you didn't have to make a read to get use out of it. Replace neutral B with a projectile and up tilt with a reflector. Ganon has projectiles in the vast majority of Legend of Zelda games. A reflector and a projectile can force approaches. And how does the bearer of the Triforce of Power not get super armor on their smash attacks?
That last sentence, that. Literally what the hell. If they must keep his stats as they are, then at least make Ganon have the highest priority so his moves come out on top. You don't clank with Ganon, you lose. Fair and balanced to me 👍
@@Whodjathink its true, if ganon could power through most attacks, it would vastly help him, and stay true to to his power-over-everything archetype. He would be a monster at trading
The Neuteal B in the mod comes from Ocarina of Time, where he kinda just flies for basically the entirety of the fight with him. Yes, Sakurai gave the one character who's able to literally fly, the absolute worst recovery in the game. And beside that, in the Zelda games, Ganondorf is actually much more well-rounded than what smash gives him credit for. Some examples (Very, very minor spoilers): -In oracina of Time he has a decent amount of magical attacks that let him fight you from a distance *(Neglecting dead man's volley was a huge mistake).* -In Twilight Princess, shows he is actually quite skilled with a sword. Here, I'd say he's closer to Ike than what we got in Smash. -The Wind Waker shows that he isn't even all that slow; In fact, he's quite fast and is able to deal with an aggressive opponent, quite literally memorizing Link's moveset, becoming completely unhittable (By standard gameplay means) by the end of the fight. Ironically this means that Smash Ganon is not a very good representation of the source material aside form the crazy damage output justified by the Triforce of Power.
As a Zelda fan, I would love nothing more than to see Ganondorf have a brand-new moveset that is faithful to his appearances in the games. For the semi-clone that we know him as in Smash, the majority of Ganondorf's problems are rooted in his lack of air speed, and they can be remedied by simply increasing it. The only problem this wouldn't solve is his relatively slow frame data.
One thing that you didn't touch on that dark dive puts ganon further in disadvantage on hit. If you connect the earliest hit box, you may actually end up having a more difficult time recovering because of how far backward he travels. If it's done too close to the stage, it's negative on hit given that your opponent techs the wall.
The worst part of his recovery is his pitiful air speed. At least Chrom has no issues getting into position to use his up special, even if he has no mixups and his up special is incredibly easy to punish. Ganondorf can't get close enough to the stage to even attempt to recover sometimes.
MY MAIN MAN GANON! I've been waiting for this one! I saw a video talking about projectiles in smash ultimate that suggested letting ganon pass straight through projectiles with us down b. If that we're paired with slightly decreasing the end lag on the move, I think that would be a huge improvement to his mobility
He needs a charging move that gives the opponent a reason to approach. And down b should have a mix up option to either do the attack or move quickly without lag.
Which kind of upsets me because Kazuya’s side B had seemed like the type to do what Ganon’s does and yet he can use his as a recovery mixup and still move after.
@@orangeslash1667 Absolutely and there are other games that have these kinds of characters apart of their roster and make it work. That does not excuse how much they took a literal shit on this man lol 😂 I know Nintendo doesn’t really care for tournaments (for great reasons as of late) but you can really feel it with Ganon alone. He is the casual God and the professional training dummy lol
@@Honeydippin95 Fun Fact: was never planned to be in melee, the only reason he made it in is because Sakurai wanted to take advantage of that Ganon model from the GameCube Zelda tech demo. The good news is that Ganon might be fun in double battles, because Ganon’s defense could be used to protect others.
@@orangeslash1667 I never knew that so I appreciate that 👌🏾 and yes he’s a hell of a lot of fun in doubles. It’s just that when you’d like to take him seriously, you can at no benefit to your mental health lol 💁🏽♂️ still love him and Falcon to death tho
The greatest disservice done to Ganondorf was introducing him in Melee as a Captain Falcon clone, a character moveset that had *zero* connection to his source material. It would have been far better to just skip Melee entirely, leaving his introduction to a later game where they could spend the resources to make an actual "Ganondorf". If they absolutely *had* to have Ganondorf in Melee, then at the very least they could have picked a better base moveset, like Roy or even Link. Thinking about it, Link really could have been a good start for Ganondorf... Make him slower but stronger, do the Marth/Roy deal where Ganondorf gets different sweet spots, replace the bomb graphically with an exploding magic orb, replace the arrow with a magic shot, at least replace the shield model with a magic shield. Then for Brawl they'd have a solid foundation for building a "real" Ganondorf. Ditch the shield entirely while making the sword a bit larger, give one or two of his sword swings a projectile reflector effect, start tweaking those magic projectiles into something more fitting... Continuing in that fashion, by Smash 4 they could have had an actual "Gandondorf".
The neutral B float and combo starter up tilt were inspired by P:M's changes to Brawl Ganon. Further, the float itself is based off of him floating in Ocarina of Time in the fight against him.
man i hate how he's still a falcon clone after 4 games. he literally has a million projectiles in oot, can float and whatever no way they couldn't have done anything
My change suggestions for Ganon focused of 2 aspects I KNOW the dev team cares about based on their own description: FUN & Ease of implementation. I wrote a 2 page paper featuring frame data and graphical aids, had it translated to Japanese and sent it off to my best guess at where the Dev team for Smash Ultimate was head quartered at the time. It was years ago but if I remember correctly the basics were: 1. Air Flame choke doesn’t free fall obviously. 2. Useless volcano Uptilt is replaced by Smash 4 upkick with nerfed damage and buffed speed. 3. Wind box from uptilt is buffed and added to neutral B. 4. Neutral A= a deflector. Just like in Ocarina of time. 5. I did suggest something with airborne warlock Kick too. I think I moved the spike and buffed the little shockwave during the end lag to make approaching it riskier so it could work as landing mix up. The saddest thing is I KNOW these changes worked as I continually saw them rolled out for other characters. Inceniroar GOT exactly what I recommended for his forward B as ac recovery. Kazuya and min min got very similar deflectors to what I recommended for Ganon. It’s not exactly the same but the neutral b wind box changes I wanted were pretty similar in application to sephiroths neutral b. A flashy ,high reward, reasonably safe space control move that covers a lot of space to make up for his lack of ability to chase ppl off stage. I even suggested reusing the cool graphical portal effect from Ganons stage intro to add a VISUAL indicator to the wind box zone without having to draw any new effects. Sadly for me never came to pass. But at least they got rid of Rock Croccing.
Funny enough, in a Smash Ultimate mod, called HewDraw Remix, or HDR, that uptilt idea of it being SSB4 usmash but nerfed knockback and damage is exactly what happened for it.
To me, Ganon was designed to be a "glacier" character (high power/stamina, low speed). That's not a horrible design choice for most fighters, you see this design in standard fighting games a lot in the form of grapplers, which make use of their traits a lot. Grapplers/Glaciers trade range, speed, combo ability, and neutral tools (as well as generally being a huge target so they get hit more easily) for MASSIVE damage output and a lot more HP. This basically translates to a plan where they wait for their opponent to come to them, tank damage/pressure, and grab their face if they don't retreat quickly enough. The problem with this kind of design in Smash clones is a few things: 1. Since there's no actual "health" (percentages are pretty abstract by comparison), HP basically gets translated into weight, and the idea is that heavier characters don't get launched off the stage as well. That's fine on paper, but in practice it means they fall into combos much more easily, and means they actually get launched WAY easier than expected. And because they're interested to have horrid recoveries, usually that's a free knockout. Tanking hits just simply doesn't work anymore because that trait that supposedly made them survive longer is ironically doing the exact opposite. 2. Because of how platform fighters work, fighters have so much more movement freedom than in traditional fighters. (Namely being able to face left and right at any given moment and more emphasis on air mobility.) As a result, fighters can pressure from so many more angles than before. Remember those things I said about grapplers/glaciers not having many neutral tools and needing to wait for their opponent to come to them? Now that's much worse with opponents coming from many possible angles while the glacier in question only has very few plans to get in. So sometimes they just can't even get in. 3. Really just lack of understanding and as a result compensation for all the weaknesses they have. Really, the game being changed to a platform "ring out" style game changes fundamental dynamics so much that I'm surprised it took until Sm4sh for something to change. (Case in point, look at Ryu. In his home series, he's a shotoclone (and no, not the Smash definition of a shoto): typically the main character that's- by comparison- supposed to be easy, simple, and helps you learn the game (while sometimes still being fairly viable). While he's still fairly viable, he doesn't feel like a character anyone can pick up and learn the game with due to his lower aerial mobility and added mechanics (well, "added" for Smash standards), unlike the actual shoto of the game, being Mario- who was designed around Smash's mechanics.) Sm4sh definitely seemed like they were trying to make more characters be more viable, and Ultimate definitely shows that in my opinion. (If not "viable" then at least more playable.) Though the reason Ganon used to be so unplayable, in my opinion, is that they overdid his glacier status. Having him heavier to compensate for lack of HP? That's an understandable mistake. Where it's a problem is he also trades his recovery- which is a new mechanic from fighting games (well, technically an old term to describe a new mechanic but details). Granted it makes some sense to have heavier characters have some poor recovery moves, but that just gimps their already bad survivability. The final nail in the coffin is bad frame data, which, combined with a lack of neutral tools, is a death sentence to any character in any fighting game, platform or otherwise. Even in traditional fighting games, most characters at least have a 5A or 2A ("equivalent" in Smash as a jab and crouching jab respectively) that's useful for safe pokes, down to even slow hulking characters (whereas in Smash best case I usually see them is for fast interruptions on confirm, if I see them at all). Characters only get shut down in specific matchups, and even then rarely so. Ganon by design shuts himself down which is why he feels so slow and useless a lot of the times. What's interesting to me is how they tuned Ganon in this game. The sword gives him more range than he did before (which isn't saying too much) and F-smash pretty much nukes a stock. Both of those changes feel like they compensate more for Ganon's design weaknesses. (If you're not going to change his weak points, just buff the strong points!) What makes Ganon divisive on this is his game plan. Or more specifically his lack of one. Again, Ganon plays like a traditional glacier: needs to wait for opponents to come in rather than the other way around. And again, this is usually a negative interaction in platform fighters. The problem is that this interaction is more player-dependant rather than matchup-dependant, and as a result fairly inconsistent. And because this is most of Ganon's gameplan, Ganon by that extension is inconsistent.
I'm really glad you made a video covering a good chunk of Ganon's shortcomings and pretty much saying what I've always been saying. What's most ironic is how many characters have better versions of his moves be it that they came before or after. Falcon Punch is hardly perfect but it's actually a feasible roll read and can be used at its most powerful without the use of a platform, Ike's fsmash has more active frames and the same start up with a better ratio of range to hurtbox size, and Ridley's side B command grab which can suicide with? Just jump out of it. What baffles me is that aerial flame choke can actually be pulled back upon connection, but not forward. If someone just walks into your recovery, YOU get punished. Up tilt needs less than half its current start up to be usable for ANY situation unless someone's not paying attention, his down tilt kills later than Falcon's or Bowser's and can't be used for combos unlike a majority of the cast, and his side tilt has less range than his jab which doesn't even let him tech chase after hitting it. His air mobility is so bad that he can't just spam aerials and his ground game is more or less the worst in the game outside of his up smash being good for ledge trapping. It's nice to see an equivalent to project m coming to save Ganondorf, especially with that surprisingly balanced float.
As a Ganon main I wouldn't want the float/teleport. I want to DOUBLE DOWN on the trunks SS2 heavy transformation. Make warlock punch, TRULY uninterruptible throughout the entire duration. Like you suggested, make Wizard foot obliterate all projectiles in its path. Make chokeslam kill the other person first. Make aerial down-B spike more consistently. GUARENTEE down air spike and make it spike much harder at lower % when their character model is off edge (no more spiking at 30% and having ROB/sora etc recover). These things aren't gonna make him top tier, hell even mid tier. But they'll reinforce the "fuck around and find out" badass image us Ganons love so much.
This is a common issue with grapplers in most fighting games, the archetype demands to be low tier, or you just have hulking monsters that are a mountain of health to fight but can one touch you. Potemkin from Guilty Gear AC had ways to vortex into big grabs into "you dont get to play" matches. Fast forward years later, Potemkin in the newest guilty gear STILL can one tap you in a lot of situations, but hes still really really bottom because that's just the nature of slow big body heavy hitters.
Here's the huge and very important difference between Smash and other fighting games: there's nowhere to run in the latter and once you're caught, you have to actively try to get away if you're still alive. You know what happens when you let Tager get close? You lose half of your healthbar and then have to deal with oki; if you fail, you're back in his hands. You know what happens when you let Ganondorf get close? You either just move away effortlessly or you get hit and then he has to chase you down again. It doesn't help that traditional heavies like Ganon actually have very terrible survivability. High weight means nothing if you die the moment you're offstage. This issue has been plaguing Smash heavies for a while.
Grapplers are fundamentally unenjoyable to play against. They are either a sack of health that are only a threat if you make a mistake or overbearing to the point of frustration. There is no middle ground when it gets that extreme. Which is a shame, but abominations like Tager, Potekim, and the rest deserve to languish in low tier. I need to memorize combos, and you do more damage because you did a single input at the right time? No. Fuck that.
1:50 Since part of competing is mind games, it allows a chance for anything to happen. You can do so many things that aren't tied to frame data and damage output to trip up your opponent. Even AI is beatable since they usually go for the most optimal move in any situation
Nothing more satisfying than winning with Ganon in Ultimate and making people rage on discord or in irl tourneys. Something about losing to Ganon that reveals the sore losers in the community. Doriyah!
The reason I personally hate fighting low tiers is that they have cheese, but the cheese can be negated by simply not approaching. Thus, trying to play the game normally against them and losing to cheese is frustrating since you know you can win if you just camp. Edit: basically, fighting against them is a lose-lose. You have to camp or face the cheese
@@NA1c158 on top of that, it's like alpharad once said: picking a low tier on the character select screen is the best move you can make. If you lose it's because of your character, if you win you won with a low tier
If Ganon has some adjustments like : - Side B to recover like Incineorar with Mix Up (you can do another move after side B) - a real Up Tilt - a projectile - a reflector or he absorbs He would be more represented
Ganon and Zelda are my two most played characters and while I'm not a competitive player I have some ideas on how how to improve them. Ganon: The most dangerous idea (and I know I'm not the first to think of this) is to give him a float. Not only does this make his recovery waaaay better, it's just a really useful tool for a lot of reasons, and makes his aerials even better. I feel like it may be a bit too powerful to someone who knows what they're doing with it better than me, but it's a solution worth looking into. Another idea was to allow Up-B and Down-B to chain into eachother at any point in their arc once or maybe twice before putting you into freefall. It continues his reliance on burst movement but gives them an extra step to read. This change in particular addresses his recovery, but adding the same functionality to his Side-B might make it too dangerous. I can see Side-B->Up-B->Down-B being fun, but unless it say left him tired sort of like rest, it seems a bit too good. Also, combining this with float would most probably be too much. One more thing before I move on, and it's not necessarily balance but just a fun idea that I know a lot of people have suggested. Dead Man's Volley, bounce it back and forth like Dedede's gordo, you know the drill. Warlock punch is iconic, and I don't want to remove it, making say aerial neutral B send out this projectile would be awesome, hell it makes warlock punch better too, I imagine after a few back and forth hits DMV would hit with an electric stun that lasts long enough for his infamous finisher "shield break punish". Zelda: As my main her kit is sacred to me, and honestly I don't quite understand her weaknesses, she seems like a great character to me. However I do wish Nair was a lot more consistent. It's a fun move and I can see it being a great combo and pressure tool, and maybe I'm just bad but its poor range and its tendency to drop someone out of it sadden me... The other idea I had was to just make her physics better. Her fall speed is frustratingly slow, and fast-fall fair/dair are fun, but easy to see coming. Another idea would be to edit dair frame data so the auto-input jump-dair can be reliably combo'ed from instead of having to rely on that muscle memory, making it a more consistent, running attack mixup. This might just be a personal issue though. A similar change could be to just automatically edge cancel up B if you'd go off a ledge or simply making that window larger, making it less of a hype pro player move, and more integral to her kit by improving its consistency and removing the self destruct risk. My final thought is to simply make her heavier or more durable, let her take more hits so she has more time and opportunities to read her opponent, more chances to spring her traps.
Zelda's main problems are that she is slow, stubby, tall and light. Most of her moves are just straight bad as well. Her f-tilt is a microcosm of her issues. At frame 12 start up, it's tied with ike and incineroar's f-tilt. Ike has considerably more range. It also doesn't have a sweetspot so it's more consistent than zelda's having power somewhere in between zelda's sweet and sour spots. Incineroar has the same sweet spot as zelda except his sweetspot hit box has priority over his sour spot. This means that he almost always hits his sweetspot regardless of the spacing unlike zelda. Down tilt really doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose. It's not safe on shield and doesn't really combo into anything at meaningful percents. Up smash might be a contender for worst up smash in the game. It's basically mewtwo's but worse and people already complain about that move being really bad. Up smash doesn't cover very wide. The hit box is high so unless you are touching zelda's body, characters like link can low profile the move. At the same time the move doesn't reach battlefield platforms. It's not even good at catching landing as most dairs will go through it due to zelda's arms not being intangible. Nair is a whole can of worms. It is one of the only multi hit that does not use the auto link angle. This makes it both inconsistent if zelda is moving as well as prevent it from being used in drag down combos. The hitbox is also to high to be buffered from the ground, tends to launch your opponent in the opposite direction of your drift, and is fairly unsafe to land on shield with. Her up air gives a lot to be desired. It's the second slowest up air being faster than sephiroth and slower than ike's. Unlike those up airs, its hit box is not nearly as big making it quite difficult to land. Zelda really struggles to approach due to fact that her mobility sucks and she doesn't have a safe approaching aerial. Her safest aerial is -8 which will still get you shield grabbed by most of the cast. She also struggles to alleviate pressure. Fair and bair don't auto cancel when buffered making them very risky to use. Her shield grab is frame 14 which is slow. Nair is useless out of shield. Up smash is basically useless out of shield. And up b is incredibly risky. Her air to air combat is also not great. Fair and bair are both far too small and precise to contest other characters in the air. Nair is zelda's only constant option in air to air situations but it has its own consistency issues and lacks the reward a lot of other moves provide other characters. To fix zelda, i would dramatically increase her air mobility, reworked a few of her hitboxes to connect better or combo, alter some of the frame data, increase the hit stun of sour spot fair/bair so it isn't unsafe on hit, maybe even tweek her specials a bit to make them function a bit better
5:50 that is well stated about Ganondorf. It's kinda of interesting that Bowser is the opposite so much power or too much but very fast as a super-heavy it's factually nuts.
Love this series since being introduced to you through your Robin video; great video addressing Ganon's somewhat conflicting reputation & appreciate how well-thought out & researched these are 😃
If Ganondorf had his extra jump after he does his down b like Melee, his recovery would improve so much. Majority of time his recovering back to stage is pretty bad.
"One strength doesn't validate someone with a lot of weaknesses" Ganondorf is raw power, his attacks not only deal high damage, but high knockback. BUT everything else is bad. Movement speed, Vertical movement capacity, high endlag in every single one of his moves, even jab is quite punishable. It's literally that, and more. Oof.
Paused halfway to write, "Something that would be cool is if they gave Ganon a float similar to Peach/Daisy. It would greatly improve his horizontal recovery and let him do nasty things with his neutral aerials." then it got mentioned...
To me, the only way to fully fix Ganon is to rework him almost entirely. He can still be the slow powerhouse of a character, but maybe we can actually make him a warlock? Fire balls, floats, kinda like his boss fight in Ocarina of Time? P+ gave him a float, and I think Project Legacy did something to the character that drastically changed him, basically turning him into a heavy battle mage character? They could do that but choose not to.
The float in Smash S is from Ocarina of Time. In the battle in Ganon's Castle between him and Link, Ganon floats above the stage and throws projectiles at Link.
We got not one, but TWO Dedede mentions this time boys. Our time will come soon enough Also you're sorta right about gordos. In theory they COULD be used to pressure at a distance...if any attack dealing 2% or more didn't just swat it away. Trading with other projectiles is out of the question as well smh
I don't play Smash anymore, but I still watch montages and highlights. And let me tell you... It doesn't matter if he's "bad". There isn't a single character more satisfying or hype to play or watch than Ganondorf. You can feel the power behind every hit and that's what makes him the best. If they were to change anything about his specials, it shouldn't be his Neutral, Side, or Down. Those are hype. Give him a Zelda-esque teleport that has an explosion on landing. Allow his sword hits to reflect projectiles. Let his Down Special power through projectiles. In fact, do add something to his Neutral Special, give it a projectile energy ball that he can launch from the punch. There were plenty of missed ops for improving Ganon but he's still the most hype character in the game.
the new forward smash is considered by most Ganondorf players to be a nerf. The comically bad frame data wasn't worth the range and power trade-off, not to mention the elbow used to have insane leanback new usmash is BROKEN though
Amazing video. Well handled breakdown, description, division of his strengths and weaknesses, reasons for results, and understanding of why he ends up where he ends up. Glad to see your back to making purely great videos again, I love each one. Thanks, truly
what makes a strong ganondorf player is their ability to read their opponnent. You need to be able to know what they are going to do before they do it. so a gannondorf spends their first stock testing the opponent in various situations like: How do they like to tech flamechoke? What's their go to ledge strat? then gannondorf begins to make hard reads and "lock out" some of the opponent's strategies. Nobody wants to get hit by gannondorf, and while the opponent is running out of options, they begin to feel fear. Once fear is achieved, defeat is inevitable . to beat gannondorf, one must succeed in staying unpredictable, which can be hard as you are avoiding all kinds of deadly strikes, while keeping track of your own movements and trying not to let out any info. for gannondorf mains we are the most analytical, get-inside-your-head mofos of all time.
I main Ganondorf since Melee. I really don't mind if he is the worst character in all the games (which he is), but I still have so much fun playing him. A shame Nintendo never gave him a major moveset rework like Bowser got (in Ultimate they just literally gave him Ike's Up Smash and Cloud's Down Smash and called it a day). Project M and Ultimate S perfectly captured the essence of what Ganondorf should be in Smash, from a character fantasy perspective (a bulk Spellfighter). yet I really like his semi-clone moveset from Captain Falcon; there is something really satisfying in landing his Down Aerial and Meteoring Smash foes at 0%.
all this talk about recovery options has me thinking about Isabelle and her range of recovery options. I'm excited for the day you post "Why NO ONE Plays: Isabelle"
Isabella is all bark and no bite. You can get out of almost anything and dance around, giving chip damage, grabbing and throwing, and generally being a nuisance, but it's really quite difficult to kill with Isabelle. Her hard hitting moves don't hit that hard and they are quite slow. At least Villager has things like Bowling Ball and Tree to send people at high damage. What does Isabelle have?
@@reverse_engineered fishing rod upthrow at kill percent, being a nuisance with the buried gyroid, party popper, pocket for projectile heavy characters, a decent nair also her bells jingle while she walks
All the other heavies have some kind of attribute that makes them threatening to offset their large hitboxes, relative slowness, and worst of all, abysmall recovery. All the other heavies are either decently fast or have great zoning and ledge trapping (like DDD or Krool). The closest to Ganon would be incineroar but incineroar is way better simply due to having a better recovery, revenge, slightly better OOS maybe, and his side b actually kills instead of like ganon having to make another read to maybe kill and even then incineroar kills earlier then Ganon side b into dash attack or dtilt I think.
I think it would be fair to grant him a similar mechanic to peaches float, especially seeing as he is based on his Oot incarnation who literally levitates during his boss battle.
It also doesn't help that he has a severe lack of almost anything intangible, even Donkey Kong who is similarly regarded as a poor heavyweight has some good, fast moves with intangibility both on the ground (like f-tilt and d-tilt) and in the air (like u-air). So when Ganon uses options to get out of disadvantage he is very likely to trade, potentially leaving him in just as bad a spot.
Do you think a character’s visuals have anything to do with their popularity? For example, if Pyra/Mythra we’re really ugly, would people play them as much. On the contrary, if ganondorf was very attractive (think sett from lol) would he be any more popular?
I mean captain falcon is played just because he looks cool if he had moves the look like little Mac but had the same hit box way less people would play him just because he’s less satisfying
@@billystorm5347 You also have to factor in a character's history when coming to or staying in smash bros. Capt. Falcon is has a *legacy* throughout the series, and thus is likewise played *because* of such, although, him looking cool was likely a starting point for a person's dedication to the Captain.
@@freddiesimmons1394 I would be pointless, he´ll still be bad competitively, because he wasn´t really designed with that in mind (much like hero and little mac)
Ganondorf becoming one of the worst characters in smash history is kinda ironic for a guy that has nearly taken over the world several times in his series Feels like a revenge for all of his crimes lol
I think you got the title wrong... It should have been why everyone plays: Ganondorf ;) Awesome video as always, it's a shame Ganondorf is really bad "again" in my opinion he really needs a complete overhaul similar to Project M. Tournament wise I agree he sees next to no usage, but in the for fun, casual scene, and online he is used by literally everyone as a pocket (myself included) It's almost impossible not having a blast when playing Ganondorf even though he is bad.
if there ever is a smash 6 i hope they fix ganondorfs mobility issues at least a bit, make him more true to his source material while also keeping true to what makes him fun in smash
11:16 Wizard's Foot actually beats Firebreath really really well. For some reason almost no Ganon players do that, but you can punish Bowser and Charizward really well with that
Ganondorf's an interesting character. Despite him being the worst fighter... I have often seen Ganon in competitive play and especially on clips from those said tournaments.
Ganon clips are much more hype to see because at least Ganon players take the time and effort to learn the character rather than abusing the annoying move like Steve,Pissra,Zero Skill Spamus,Pikachu,Ness,etc
11:16 You got one thing wrong anout his down b. It gets completely stuffed out by projectiles on START UP. I try to hit projectiles about a quarter second after the move starts, or after Down B has moved forward by a length of about 1 Ganondorf. If you can properly react/read someone using a projectile then you can preemptively use wizards foot to punish and defend at the same time. If you do this successfully it doesnt even clank with projectiles, it straight up just eats them. Samus full charge shot I think still beats it out, but I'd be confident using down b with a 70% charge shot if I see it coming.
He suffered from Smash 4 Little Mac Syndrome. People thought he was good in the beginning of the game, but players later realized how exploitable their weaknesses were and are now seen as low tiers.
Ganon got shafted hard by Sakurai going the extra mile to include him in Melee. It was obviously really great to have him in game, but it lumbered one of Nintendos most iconic villains with a moveset that was stolen from a pilot in a racing game, which was itself made up from thin air. I hope that in the next Smash the inevitable roster reduction is met by existing moveset being completely overhauled to allow characters like Ganon to shine. 😊
The reason why people would mod Ganon to be able to float like that is because in Zelda proper, while he's no stranger to getting physical with Link, he's equally proficient, if more more proficient with magic, so a game accurate version of Ganon would actually be more a zoner with a good "Get off me" tool than a superheavy grappler
But there's a MASSIVE issue: Zoning won't sell you the core idea of Ganondorf. You see, he's the definition of sheer corrupted power (Is literally on his lore), and Zoners must trade power for that range, therefore becoming less powerful. A "Get off me" tool ? Sure, wanting to punish approaches hard is compatible with raw power and is indeed more options. A reflector? I don't mind it, the concept of reflecting his moves is very prevalent on his games and can indeed be complementary to his gameplay, and some reflectors are indeed get off me tools. Actual Zoning? That's just a terrible idea, and way too safe for the desired style of heavyweights. There's a reason that mod didn't gave him proyectiles but a float, to give him the options he's lacking to use that raw power, as well as that unreliable teleport to deal damage, because he needs anti-zoning tools to unleash his fantasy, not zoning tools.
Basically Ganon relies too much on fear. As long as the opponent is able to keep a cool head and play around his threat range and gimp him Ganon isn't really much of a threat.
Ganondorf should be the most powerful character in the game. He needs to be able to recover fast so he can compete against fast characters. Noone should be able to match him. Ganondorf is actually the most powerful character in the game, he just needs faster recovery options to fully come into his role
As a Ganondorf main it's not about winning or losing it's about sending a message.
Absolutely. And for me nothing is more satisfying than finishing off an opponents last stock with the Ganondunk.
That's a good one! I'd say it's a message of FEAR. Tricking the opponent into thinking you're way better than them.
Committing Ganoncide is the only reason I play as Ganondorf.
This reference will always annoy me, but it is the exact reason to play Ganondorf.
It's also about the satisfaction
If you’re playing Ganondorf, it all boils down to whether your opponent underestimates you and plays stupidly or they actually know how to dodge a 70 frame attack.
Your opponent has to constantly mess up. If they don’t mess up you just can’t win.
He’s a fundamentals check. Can you floor tech side B? Can you properly edge guard and avoid getting stage spiked from up B? Can you spot dodge up tilt?
If you can 95% of the time, you invalidate a huge portion of his kit. Turns out pros have killer fundamentals.
@@bnsz8704 Ganon is a Dark Souls boss in Smash form.
Fr
as a ganondorf main, this is very hurtful, i mean it’s true, but still hurtful😢
Gannon knows all he has is power. He's been trying to get wisdom and courage for over 30 years but Link and Zelda just won't give him those pieces of the triforce, that's the whole plot of legend of zelda!
Was waiting for this one, thx bud!
Actually he had the entire triforce in lttp, had wisdom in albw and tp
@@firenze6478 n still couldn't do shit w it 😂😂
@@maiastniki he didn’t use it in lttp. He got cocky and figured he wouldn’t need it.
@@maiastniki Didnt he literally take over an ENTIRE dimension in alttp?
You see all you need is a third eye to see what your opponent is going to do, then you can play Ganon optimally
Exactly, if you can't open your third eye then im sorry but thats a skill issue and you deserve the loses
the fact that an anime ability is a requirement to play this character is crazy
It's a very fun ability :)
Gannon is the best advantage pusher in the game.
Unfortunately, he's rarely in advantage.
They still did him dirty asf
Also I wish they would have given him the long hair just like in ocarina of time
So basically, Ganondorf is what happens when you put all your stats in offense.
The Rampardos theorem at its finest.
Kinda, except ganon doesnt have the most important stat for offense which is SPEED
@@kirby771 A man of culture i see
More like what happens when you max out everything except speed/mobility.
You mean strength.
Ganondorf is the most fun character to play in my opinion , and watching somebody highly skilled with him play and kickass is just rad , and he may be low teir but that just makes it even better when he does win a battle
It literally feels like you're PLAYING with POWER! Getting kills with his sword and D-air are just satisfying ( and hilarious )
Ganondorf's main strategy seems to me to be acting like a complete asshole, going for stupid attacks like uptilt ledge traps, warlock punches, and Ganoncide. Go watch Bizzarro Flame, that dude was nuts.
@@commscan314 so every other smash character as well?
@@alexmartinez-iq6ti The difference is that Ganondorf relies on demoralizing and humiliating your opponent, while many other characters do not.
@@StedmanFoster He has the Triforce of Power.
Something really funny about Ganondorf is that although he does a huge amount of damage with each attack, his combo game is so bad that he actually does surprisingly mediocre damage in practice, such as doing only around 40% off of a low% combo
What a weird issue to have. Justice for ganon
True, but also kind of irrelevant when 40% is kill percent for Ganon
The character isn't built around combos, he's mostly built around getting a few stray hits that do stupid damage. A single Nair will do like 21% I think? Fundamentally he's supposed to be a very simple brawler, they just have him an absurd number of weaknesses because they were afraid of him being the casual stomping character (which he is).
40% is pretty good for one combo...
I disagree, ganon isn't about comboes. It's predicting where your opponent is going to be and just hitting them with anything consistently.
Considering that Gandondorf can literally fly in Ocarina of Time his terrible recovery seems really harsh. Honestly, having the ability to act out of Aerial Flame Choke would fix many of his problems.
Incineroar can act out of his aerial Side B. Ganon can't. That ticks me off.
Ganon should have peach's float. Just imagine
I wish they took notes from Project +/Project M
They ravaged him hard in smash
He was not even slow in oot and that op magic
Speaking of Ocarina of time, HE NEEDS HIS PROJECTILE! BRING BACK THE VOLLEY!!
His Neutral B in the mod is inspired by his battle in OoT. I do wish he had that as satisfying as warlock punch is.
They should give him the projectiles he throws in OoT as well. Not sure why a guy that can fly and shoots projectiles in their source game can't jump or shoot anything in Smash.
Its probably also inspired by PM they gave him a float, and his works like Mewtwos float in PM
@@illford Oof, now I'm the uncultured swine :x
@Remilia20 XX nah Nintendo basically got PM/P+ shadowbanned, hence why you never see it at tourneys
@@illford Also, Ganon in PM still has a Warlock Punch style attack by holding the button for his sword taunt.
Ganondorf is the character that plays the game the least. He either kills you in 3 moves or gets killed in 3 moves
The float comes from ocarina of time where you face off against Ganondorf at the end he overs above you in that pose while you play dead man’s volley to knock him down. That REALLY would fix him I think
Didn't PM give Ganon a reflector and a Peach Float?
@@nickel7o740 I have no idea bc as much as I love smash I’ve not been able to add mods to any previous games, sounds appropriate though for the dead mans volley
@@nickel7o740 Yes, the devs for that game knew exactly how to treat him.
@@Gillian_FFXIV no they didnt, he was still one of the worst characters in the game
@@williamwest9204 That doesn't mean they didn't give him love or do what they could with him, because they did. It cannot be helped that other characters are inherently just better than him by default no matter what you do, but there is also the case of Phantom Ganon, which is an entirely different character that uses magic instead of his usual brawly fighting style in the Smash games.
The developers of PM did more for him than Nintendo ever have, but the official Smash games did give him his best move, Flame Choke, so I give credit where credit is due.
Ganon is the character nobody plays but everybody plays at the same time 😂
On Elite smash yeah
Lmao
@@ken7007 by the way I have a friend that mains ganondorf and we call him Brandondorf cause his name is Brandon
He is the ultimate noob killer, but gets mugged himself in competitive scene
I've only played smash recently with my cousins over the holidays. I literally only won with Ganon. Played him Kazuya and Sephiroth. Tried Ken but sucked with him.
Ganon in Smash is the Rampardos Theorem at its finest: amazing power, terrible everything else.
There's a good reason why Light didn't go offstage against Ganon, and that's because Ganon's aerials have more range than any of his moves, and the fact that they come out much faster than it appears. Ganon is truly bottom 3, but those aerials do hurt real bad. Only time it's generally safe to challenge or go offstage against Ganon is if you have a good disjoint, a projectile, or if he's relatively far offstage.
if he throws out a single aerial, while it will deal a lot of damage and potentially stage spike, chances are his dogshit recovery won't reach the ledge because of the time he wasted. if you see a ganon double jump i'd say it's safe to edgeguard him even with someone like wario
Ganon's aerials are indeed very good and some of THE best in the game, but his abysmal aerial speed prevent him from making the most out of them, sadly.
Its amazing how Bowser gets a redesign and a run speed leagues faster than his Melee/Brawl counterpart.
But Ganon's the exception from any loyal changes that reflect from his series. He knows magic and faster sword skills.
The mod that has Ganon as a mage and sworduser seperately is how to do it right.
Or, idk, give Ganon a way to reflect/absorb projectiles.
Turning one or more of his attacks into projectile reflectors would be the simplest "loyal to the source" change they could make, yet they've refused to do it in game after game.
Better framedata (not a big ask, especially for the multiple joke moves he has), making his Wizfoot deny projectiles (to make it more distinct from choke and help against spam) and let him chain specials without the ill-thought freefall (to make his recovery and positioning more passable). Bam, three easy changes and Ganon is an actual character again.
Ganon literally got nothing coming into ultimate except key nerfs
@@BainesMkII - The best thing would be like what the mod in the video showed: the ability to float in the air for mixups, but also give that same ability a reflector like his fight in OoT... which is incidentally exactly what he had in PM.
that goes for the entire Zelda series tbh outside of Link and them giving Zelda a new model
Ironic that the villain who’s been memed to come back in almost every Zelda game in some way also can’t come back whenever he’s knocked off the stage in Smash.
Still a better offstage game then mac
@@StandUpConorDy have you seen peanuts little mac by chance?
One thing I'd like to mention regarding the point you made of Ganon feeling like an echo of Falcon:
Sakurai never wants to change a character so much that the playerbase doesn't "recognize" the character anymore which is why Ganon will always be this bad Falcon as long as Sakurai makes Smash games. Ganon was a last minute add on to the Melee roster afaik which is why he ended up the way he did in the first place. If they only added him to Brawl...he probably would have been more like a warlock and less like a drunk tavernbrawler
I do love this drunk tavern brawler though... He's unironically my favorite character on the roster and he's always fit me so well. I'd be devasted if they completely axed this moveset.
I think what they could do is keep his normals, but change his specials. Even simply giving him a Peach levitate and swapping Warlock Punch for Dead Man's Volley would go so far in making him more mage-like. It'd encompass all forms of Ganon: a brutal, sword-wielding warlock.
Or, do what many suggest and give this brawler moveset to F-Zero's Black Shadow; it would fit SO well on that cheesy badass. It only makes sense that the Falcon semi-clone should actually be related to Falcon lol. Then they could go fully original with Ganon. Make him the OP mage everyone desires!
@@RacingSnails64 or they could just introduce a second Ganondorf. Like TP Ganondorf for example. I mean we literally have 3 Links and 2 Zeldas. Having one 'traditional' Ganondorf and one that's actually closer to the source material seems not out of question. Thing is, you can't really hype this added fighter up in trailers for the upcoming game. Dunno if that's a reason for the devs not to do that
After Tears of the Kingdom....
Bruh, they really need to reboot his Smash appearance to be more in-line with the Weapon Master / Warlock of that game, as for his old moveset, F-Zero's Deathborn could easily take it as Captain Falcon's Echo, the dude even has a big energy sword and a choke attack in GX's cutscenes!
To kind of illustrate on how bad Ganondorf has it in Ultimate, something to note about SSB4 Ganondorf is that the character was known for having a surprising good amount of representation for a perceived bottom tier character. Adom, Gungnir, Rickles, Ray Kalm... some iconic faces in the Ganondorf community. Gungnir notably got 17th at Umebura Japan Major 2017 while beating Earth, yuzu, and kept.
Not great results overall (he is low tier for a reason), but surprisingly good for what he is.
In Ultimate, Ganondorf doesn't really have any of this. There is the Nairo vs Light set, but that was a one-time surprise counterpick that happened near the start of the game's life. When that one set is pretty much Ganondorf's only real contribution to the Ultimate metagame, then you know that your character has a lot of problems. There is Rickles, but his results are sparse and frankly not too great for being the only high-level active player for the character. Everyone else mentioned above has been either inactive/semi-active, or entirely dedicated to online play.
In other words, Ganondorf (and Mii Swordfighter) is pretty much the only Smash Ultimate character is be virtually irrelevant in high level play throughout the entire duration of Smash Ultimate's life, a fall from even what he did in SSB4.
And even Swordfighter had its moments on the early meta until people realized how linear its gameplay was, just like Ike.
Playing against a ganondorf in smash 4 is fun until they start spamming grab
@@PandaBait28 Grab is like one of his few arguably "good" moves, pf course they are gonna use it non stop
The Western world has basically given up on Ganondorf. You gotta go to Japan if you wanna get rocked by some great Dorfs
Wasn't his up-smash in SBB4 disgustingly good ?
Ganon is a textbook example of what happens when you don't give a character mobility/speed in a PvP game.
It could be fine if they gave him something, anything, to counteract that deficit to a reasonable degree, but all of the supposed good points are too little and implemented in such a way that they are no benefit at all in the end. For example, he has weight to offset his speed. Well, his high weight combines with his large hitbox and nonexistent defensive options to make him pretty much the easiest combo punching bag in the game, which means he's not heavy at all as a sum. Then they give him an instalose of a recovery as a bonus to make him, a superheavy, into plausibly the most fragile character in the game. Who thought that this was in any way ok?
Tl;Dr: Taking speed isn't really the problem, but massively undervaluing the worth of that speed and not considering the ramifications of taking it away *at all* is.
Look up "Tankscraper VS Spamtracks" for a character choice with the lowest tactical mobility in the involved game up against an infamous character choice with an actually hacked for min-maxing setup.
The thing about Ganondorf is invoking fear so the opponent thinks twice.
Really would like to know why Sakurai never gave Ganondorf the overhaul he needed.
Was it stubberness or just simple lack of time and priority?
I think he's said he doesn't want to change characters too much from how we've come to know them. It's a combination of maintaining their recognizability + being snuck into Melee as a semi-clone. Unfortunate circumstance.
I don't think Ganon's moveset is too far off though. Give him a Peach levitate and swap Dead Man's Volley with Warlock Punch and he'd be pretty damn close to what he should be. A powerful, sword-wielding warlock.
I'd also be fine with them putting this Falcon clone moveset on Black Shadow from F-Zero, and going fully original with Ganon. Perhaps if there's a Smash reboot after Ultimate!
Both, probably.
Sakurai doesn't like changing characters too much once they're in. Ganondorf being brought in as a semi-clone of Captain Falcon means he's been more or less defined since Melee, with only incremental changes being allowed
Only reason Luigi is so different from Mario at this point is because he's been incrementally changed since 64, and Mario's had a few significant changes of his own as well.
Melee was a famously rushed game, evident by additions such as Dr Mario and Ganon was made a heavier capt. falcon for this reason, I bet he just never got around to reworking him.
Too much effort so they got lazy I presume
The mod you showed would definitely make Ganondorf better representative of how he is in his home series and better on the tier list. If we had to stick with the moves he has now, I would like to see three changes to buff him. The first is the projectile invincibility on down b that you and Mockrock mentioned and the other two would change side b to not send into freefall and to have the opponent die first. I think with those three changes, Ganondorf would at least be mid-tier and be better represented in tournaments.
Eh, honestly I doubt it’d be enough to get him out of low tier. Even if you don’t edge guard him, it’s still really easy to camp with projectiles. Even if wizard’s foot could power through a full charge shot, I don’t think it’d matter because it has more endlag than change shot so you could still punish it.
@thunderd7904 well, depending on your range, it would still hit opponents.
The utility and potential of having wizard's foot be invincible to all projectiles is fantastic in any instance, regardless. Ganondorf doesn't have any good ways to get in on semi-competent zoners. However, the above change would give him an actual mix-up in approaching zoners.
A Samus charging charge shot now has to consider whether Ganon will approach with a wiz kick or with a jump, giving both players pause in what Ganon will do in this interaction. Though wiz kick wouldn't be spectacular, the added ability to counter zoning would be a boon to his kit.
@@mrmediocre848 I mean, I think it’d help, but I don’t think it’s nearly enough to prevent him from getting camped out. If you attached a reflecting property on it, then maybe Ganondorf could actually jump to mid tier
What about increasing his double jump height by a small amount? Enough to make it impactful for his recovery.
If they can give reflectors to random ass moves on characters like Min Min and Kazuya, they can give Ganon a damn reflector too.
Gannnon requires the rest of the triforce not to suck. You need the wisdom to know exactly what your opponent will do next and the courage to actually commit to the crimes on framedata that are his attacks.
Neutral B is a scrub killer, up tilt is even scrubbier, and side B would be useful if you didn't have to make a read to get use out of it.
Replace neutral B with a projectile and up tilt with a reflector. Ganon has projectiles in the vast majority of Legend of Zelda games. A reflector and a projectile can force approaches.
And how does the bearer of the Triforce of Power not get super armor on their smash attacks?
That last sentence, that. Literally what the hell. If they must keep his stats as they are, then at least make Ganon have the highest priority so his moves come out on top. You don't clank with Ganon, you lose. Fair and balanced to me 👍
@@Whodjathink its true, if ganon could power through most attacks, it would vastly help him, and stay true to to his power-over-everything archetype. He would be a monster at trading
@@SmittyWerbenjagermandragon where every trade he always wins lol
Vars: Everyone is bad on WiFi.
Sonix on WiFi:
The Neuteal B in the mod comes from Ocarina of Time, where he kinda just flies for basically the entirety of the fight with him. Yes, Sakurai gave the one character who's able to literally fly, the absolute worst recovery in the game. And beside that, in the Zelda games, Ganondorf is actually much more well-rounded than what smash gives him credit for. Some examples (Very, very minor spoilers):
-In oracina of Time he has a decent amount of magical attacks that let him fight you from a distance *(Neglecting dead man's volley was a huge mistake).*
-In Twilight Princess, shows he is actually quite skilled with a sword. Here, I'd say he's closer to Ike than what we got in Smash.
-The Wind Waker shows that he isn't even all that slow; In fact, he's quite fast and is able to deal with an aggressive opponent, quite literally memorizing Link's moveset, becoming completely unhittable (By standard gameplay means) by the end of the fight.
Ironically this means that Smash Ganon is not a very good representation of the source material aside form the crazy damage output justified by the Triforce of Power.
As a Zelda fan, I would love nothing more than to see Ganondorf have a brand-new moveset that is faithful to his appearances in the games.
For the semi-clone that we know him as in Smash, the majority of Ganondorf's problems are rooted in his lack of air speed, and they can be remedied by simply increasing it. The only problem this wouldn't solve is his relatively slow frame data.
One thing that you didn't touch on that dark dive puts ganon further in disadvantage on hit. If you connect the earliest hit box, you may actually end up having a more difficult time recovering because of how far backward he travels. If it's done too close to the stage, it's negative on hit given that your opponent techs the wall.
The worst part of his recovery is his pitiful air speed. At least Chrom has no issues getting into position to use his up special, even if he has no mixups and his up special is incredibly easy to punish. Ganondorf can't get close enough to the stage to even attempt to recover sometimes.
MY MAIN MAN GANON! I've been waiting for this one! I saw a video talking about projectiles in smash ultimate that suggested letting ganon pass straight through projectiles with us down b. If that we're paired with slightly decreasing the end lag on the move, I think that would be a huge improvement to his mobility
He needs a charging move that gives the opponent a reason to approach. And down b should have a mix up option to either do the attack or move quickly without lag.
Down b should be both cancellable and send him in any aerial direction he wants. Would help his recovery a TON
5:32 I literally made a meme about this exact moment with Ganondorf lol
I also often think of Ganondorf as the Rampardos of Smash.
The satisfaction of hitting a Doriyah or the dunk keeps me addicted to ganondorf. No matter how much of a disadvantage it is.
The least they could have done for him would be to not go into free fall after his side special.
Which kind of upsets me because Kazuya’s side B had seemed like the type to do what Ganon’s does and yet he can use his as a recovery mixup and still move after.
@@Honeydippin95Ganondorf is a very extreme of high risk high reward character.
@@orangeslash1667 Absolutely and there are other games that have these kinds of characters apart of their roster and make it work. That does not excuse how much they took a literal shit on this man lol 😂 I know Nintendo doesn’t really care for tournaments (for great reasons as of late) but you can really feel it with Ganon alone. He is the casual God and the professional training dummy lol
@@Honeydippin95 Fun Fact: was never planned to be in melee, the only reason he made it in is because Sakurai wanted to take advantage of that Ganon model from the GameCube Zelda tech demo. The good news is that Ganon might be fun in double battles, because Ganon’s defense could be used to protect others.
@@orangeslash1667 I never knew that so I appreciate that 👌🏾 and yes he’s a hell of a lot of fun in doubles. It’s just that when you’d like to take him seriously, you can at no benefit to your mental health lol 💁🏽♂️ still love him and Falcon to death tho
The greatest disservice done to Ganondorf was introducing him in Melee as a Captain Falcon clone, a character moveset that had *zero* connection to his source material. It would have been far better to just skip Melee entirely, leaving his introduction to a later game where they could spend the resources to make an actual "Ganondorf". If they absolutely *had* to have Ganondorf in Melee, then at the very least they could have picked a better base moveset, like Roy or even Link.
Thinking about it, Link really could have been a good start for Ganondorf... Make him slower but stronger, do the Marth/Roy deal where Ganondorf gets different sweet spots, replace the bomb graphically with an exploding magic orb, replace the arrow with a magic shot, at least replace the shield model with a magic shield. Then for Brawl they'd have a solid foundation for building a "real" Ganondorf. Ditch the shield entirely while making the sword a bit larger, give one or two of his sword swings a projectile reflector effect, start tweaking those magic projectiles into something more fitting... Continuing in that fashion, by Smash 4 they could have had an actual "Gandondorf".
Ganondorf is actually one of the most played characters at every level except the top and high.
The neutral B float and combo starter up tilt were inspired by P:M's changes to Brawl Ganon. Further, the float itself is based off of him floating in Ocarina of Time in the fight against him.
man i hate how he's still a falcon clone after 4 games. he literally has a million projectiles in oot, can float and whatever no way they couldn't have done anything
A Zelda reference in this Zelda character's moveset? Who would've ever thought of that?
My change suggestions for Ganon focused of 2 aspects I KNOW the dev team cares about based on their own description: FUN & Ease of implementation.
I wrote a 2 page paper featuring frame data and graphical aids, had it translated to Japanese and sent it off to my best guess at where the Dev team for Smash Ultimate was head quartered at the time.
It was years ago but if I remember correctly the basics were:
1. Air Flame choke doesn’t free fall obviously.
2. Useless volcano Uptilt is replaced by Smash 4 upkick with nerfed damage and buffed speed.
3. Wind box from uptilt is buffed and added to neutral B.
4. Neutral A= a deflector. Just like in Ocarina of time.
5. I did suggest something with airborne warlock Kick too. I think I moved the spike and buffed the little shockwave during the end lag to make approaching it riskier so it could work as landing mix up.
The saddest thing is I KNOW these changes worked as I continually saw them rolled out for other characters. Inceniroar GOT exactly what I recommended for his forward B as ac recovery. Kazuya and min min got very similar deflectors to what I recommended for Ganon.
It’s not exactly the same but the neutral b wind box changes I wanted were pretty similar in application to sephiroths neutral b. A flashy ,high reward, reasonably safe space control move that covers a lot of space to make up for his lack of ability to chase ppl off stage. I even suggested reusing the cool graphical portal effect from Ganons stage intro to add a VISUAL indicator to the wind box zone without having to draw any new effects.
Sadly for me never came to pass. But at least they got rid of Rock Croccing.
Funny enough, in a Smash Ultimate mod, called HewDraw Remix, or HDR, that uptilt idea of it being SSB4 usmash but nerfed knockback and damage is exactly what happened for it.
To me, Ganon was designed to be a "glacier" character (high power/stamina, low speed). That's not a horrible design choice for most fighters, you see this design in standard fighting games a lot in the form of grapplers, which make use of their traits a lot. Grapplers/Glaciers trade range, speed, combo ability, and neutral tools (as well as generally being a huge target so they get hit more easily) for MASSIVE damage output and a lot more HP. This basically translates to a plan where they wait for their opponent to come to them, tank damage/pressure, and grab their face if they don't retreat quickly enough.
The problem with this kind of design in Smash clones is a few things:
1. Since there's no actual "health" (percentages are pretty abstract by comparison), HP basically gets translated into weight, and the idea is that heavier characters don't get launched off the stage as well. That's fine on paper, but in practice it means they fall into combos much more easily, and means they actually get launched WAY easier than expected. And because they're interested to have horrid recoveries, usually that's a free knockout. Tanking hits just simply doesn't work anymore because that trait that supposedly made them survive longer is ironically doing the exact opposite.
2. Because of how platform fighters work, fighters have so much more movement freedom than in traditional fighters. (Namely being able to face left and right at any given moment and more emphasis on air mobility.) As a result, fighters can pressure from so many more angles than before. Remember those things I said about grapplers/glaciers not having many neutral tools and needing to wait for their opponent to come to them? Now that's much worse with opponents coming from many possible angles while the glacier in question only has very few plans to get in. So sometimes they just can't even get in.
3. Really just lack of understanding and as a result compensation for all the weaknesses they have. Really, the game being changed to a platform "ring out" style game changes fundamental dynamics so much that I'm surprised it took until Sm4sh for something to change. (Case in point, look at Ryu. In his home series, he's a shotoclone (and no, not the Smash definition of a shoto): typically the main character that's- by comparison- supposed to be easy, simple, and helps you learn the game (while sometimes still being fairly viable). While he's still fairly viable, he doesn't feel like a character anyone can pick up and learn the game with due to his lower aerial mobility and added mechanics (well, "added" for Smash standards), unlike the actual shoto of the game, being Mario- who was designed around Smash's mechanics.) Sm4sh definitely seemed like they were trying to make more characters be more viable, and Ultimate definitely shows that in my opinion. (If not "viable" then at least more playable.) Though the reason Ganon used to be so unplayable, in my opinion, is that they overdid his glacier status. Having him heavier to compensate for lack of HP? That's an understandable mistake. Where it's a problem is he also trades his recovery- which is a new mechanic from fighting games (well, technically an old term to describe a new mechanic but details). Granted it makes some sense to have heavier characters have some poor recovery moves, but that just gimps their already bad survivability. The final nail in the coffin is bad frame data, which, combined with a lack of neutral tools, is a death sentence to any character in any fighting game, platform or otherwise. Even in traditional fighting games, most characters at least have a 5A or 2A ("equivalent" in Smash as a jab and crouching jab respectively) that's useful for safe pokes, down to even slow hulking characters (whereas in Smash best case I usually see them is for fast interruptions on confirm, if I see them at all). Characters only get shut down in specific matchups, and even then rarely so. Ganon by design shuts himself down which is why he feels so slow and useless a lot of the times.
What's interesting to me is how they tuned Ganon in this game. The sword gives him more range than he did before (which isn't saying too much) and F-smash pretty much nukes a stock. Both of those changes feel like they compensate more for Ganon's design weaknesses. (If you're not going to change his weak points, just buff the strong points!)
What makes Ganon divisive on this is his game plan. Or more specifically his lack of one. Again, Ganon plays like a traditional glacier: needs to wait for opponents to come in rather than the other way around. And again, this is usually a negative interaction in platform fighters. The problem is that this interaction is more player-dependant rather than matchup-dependant, and as a result fairly inconsistent. And because this is most of Ganon's gameplan, Ganon by that extension is inconsistent.
I'm really glad you made a video covering a good chunk of Ganon's shortcomings and pretty much saying what I've always been saying.
What's most ironic is how many characters have better versions of his moves be it that they came before or after. Falcon Punch is hardly perfect but it's actually a feasible roll read and can be used at its most powerful without the use of a platform, Ike's fsmash has more active frames and the same start up with a better ratio of range to hurtbox size, and Ridley's side B command grab which can suicide with? Just jump out of it.
What baffles me is that aerial flame choke can actually be pulled back upon connection, but not forward. If someone just walks into your recovery, YOU get punished. Up tilt needs less than half its current start up to be usable for ANY situation unless someone's not paying attention, his down tilt kills later than Falcon's or Bowser's and can't be used for combos unlike a majority of the cast, and his side tilt has less range than his jab which doesn't even let him tech chase after hitting it. His air mobility is so bad that he can't just spam aerials and his ground game is more or less the worst in the game outside of his up smash being good for ledge trapping.
It's nice to see an equivalent to project m coming to save Ganondorf, especially with that surprisingly balanced float.
Even before I watch the rest of this video (the ad is going off) good lord the quickplay disrespect is so much fun
7: 15 I love watching Esam, sometimes he pulls off the craziest combos and stuff. Other times he SD's while under virtually no pressure.
Getting a series of reads to just one tap your opponent is a feeling unlike any other. Doubly so with Ganon
I once got three stocked by a Gannon on wifi then proceeded to rematch and now no longer underestimating him proceeded to three stock him right back.
Ganondorf's biggest problem is his mobility.
That mod having ganon float around for a brief time would be so awesome
Ganondorf main here, if your opponent remains always calm and composed the match-up becomes 10x harder
As a Ganon main I wouldn't want the float/teleport. I want to DOUBLE DOWN on the trunks SS2 heavy transformation.
Make warlock punch, TRULY uninterruptible throughout the entire duration.
Like you suggested, make Wizard foot obliterate all projectiles in its path.
Make chokeslam kill the other person first.
Make aerial down-B spike more consistently.
GUARENTEE down air spike and make it spike much harder at lower % when their character model is off edge (no more spiking at 30% and having ROB/sora etc recover).
These things aren't gonna make him top tier, hell even mid tier. But they'll reinforce the "fuck around and find out" badass image us Ganons love so much.
This is a common issue with grapplers in most fighting games, the archetype demands to be low tier, or you just have hulking monsters that are a mountain of health to fight but can one touch you. Potemkin from Guilty Gear AC had ways to vortex into big grabs into "you dont get to play" matches. Fast forward years later, Potemkin in the newest guilty gear STILL can one tap you in a lot of situations, but hes still really really bottom because that's just the nature of slow big body heavy hitters.
Here's the huge and very important difference between Smash and other fighting games: there's nowhere to run in the latter and once you're caught, you have to actively try to get away if you're still alive. You know what happens when you let Tager get close? You lose half of your healthbar and then have to deal with oki; if you fail, you're back in his hands. You know what happens when you let Ganondorf get close? You either just move away effortlessly or you get hit and then he has to chase you down again.
It doesn't help that traditional heavies like Ganon actually have very terrible survivability. High weight means nothing if you die the moment you're offstage. This issue has been plaguing Smash heavies for a while.
Grapplers are fundamentally unenjoyable to play against. They are either a sack of health that are only a threat if you make a mistake or overbearing to the point of frustration. There is no middle ground when it gets that extreme. Which is a shame, but abominations like Tager, Potekim, and the rest deserve to languish in low tier. I need to memorize combos, and you do more damage because you did a single input at the right time? No. Fuck that.
DK is not slow he’s just a big hitbox
@@timhiltz6323 and has a terrible recovery that makes him far easier to kill than some of the lightest characters in the game.
@@anothenblue2630 Well Dk isnt actually that slow tho he has suprisingly good speed and very good airspeed so atleast he is pretty mobile
1:50 Since part of competing is mind games, it allows a chance for anything to happen. You can do so many things that aren't tied to frame data and damage output to trip up your opponent. Even AI is beatable since they usually go for the most optimal move in any situation
Nothing more satisfying than winning with Ganon in Ultimate and making people rage on discord or in irl tourneys. Something about losing to Ganon that reveals the sore losers in the community. Doriyah!
The reason I personally hate fighting low tiers is that they have cheese, but the cheese can be negated by simply not approaching. Thus, trying to play the game normally against them and losing to cheese is frustrating since you know you can win if you just camp.
Edit: basically, fighting against them is a lose-lose. You have to camp or face the cheese
One of the current Oregon PR top ten, Major, is a Ganondorf solo main. He's such a fucking treat to watch.
@@BoneTea whatever helps you, bro
@@NA1c158 on top of that, it's like alpharad once said: picking a low tier on the character select screen is the best move you can make. If you lose it's because of your character, if you win you won with a low tier
If Ganon has some adjustments like :
- Side B to recover like Incineorar with Mix Up (you can do another move after side B)
- a real Up Tilt
- a projectile
- a reflector or he absorbs
He would be more represented
If a new smash game gets developed, I hope he gets a better move-set and a better recovery
Ganon and Zelda are my two most played characters and while I'm not a competitive player I have some ideas on how how to improve them.
Ganon:
The most dangerous idea (and I know I'm not the first to think of this) is to give him a float. Not only does this make his recovery waaaay better, it's just a really useful tool for a lot of reasons, and makes his aerials even better. I feel like it may be a bit too powerful to someone who knows what they're doing with it better than me, but it's a solution worth looking into.
Another idea was to allow Up-B and Down-B to chain into eachother at any point in their arc once or maybe twice before putting you into freefall. It continues his reliance on burst movement but gives them an extra step to read. This change in particular addresses his recovery, but adding the same functionality to his Side-B might make it too dangerous. I can see Side-B->Up-B->Down-B being fun, but unless it say left him tired sort of like rest, it seems a bit too good. Also, combining this with float would most probably be too much.
One more thing before I move on, and it's not necessarily balance but just a fun idea that I know a lot of people have suggested. Dead Man's Volley, bounce it back and forth like Dedede's gordo, you know the drill. Warlock punch is iconic, and I don't want to remove it, making say aerial neutral B send out this projectile would be awesome, hell it makes warlock punch better too, I imagine after a few back and forth hits DMV would hit with an electric stun that lasts long enough for his infamous finisher "shield break punish".
Zelda:
As my main her kit is sacred to me, and honestly I don't quite understand her weaknesses, she seems like a great character to me.
However I do wish Nair was a lot more consistent. It's a fun move and I can see it being a great combo and pressure tool, and maybe I'm just bad but its poor range and its tendency to drop someone out of it sadden me...
The other idea I had was to just make her physics better. Her fall speed is frustratingly slow, and fast-fall fair/dair are fun, but easy to see coming.
Another idea would be to edit dair frame data so the auto-input jump-dair can be reliably combo'ed from instead of having to rely on that muscle memory, making it a more consistent, running attack mixup. This might just be a personal issue though.
A similar change could be to just automatically edge cancel up B if you'd go off a ledge or simply making that window larger, making it less of a hype pro player move, and more integral to her kit by improving its consistency and removing the self destruct risk.
My final thought is to simply make her heavier or more durable, let her take more hits so she has more time and opportunities to read her opponent, more chances to spring her traps.
Zelda's main problems are that she is slow, stubby, tall and light. Most of her moves are just straight bad as well.
Her f-tilt is a microcosm of her issues. At frame 12 start up, it's tied with ike and incineroar's f-tilt. Ike has considerably more range. It also doesn't have a sweetspot so it's more consistent than zelda's having power somewhere in between zelda's sweet and sour spots. Incineroar has the same sweet spot as zelda except his sweetspot hit box has priority over his sour spot. This means that he almost always hits his sweetspot regardless of the spacing unlike zelda.
Down tilt really doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose. It's not safe on shield and doesn't really combo into anything at meaningful percents.
Up smash might be a contender for worst up smash in the game. It's basically mewtwo's but worse and people already complain about that move being really bad. Up smash doesn't cover very wide. The hit box is high so unless you are touching zelda's body, characters like link can low profile the move. At the same time the move doesn't reach battlefield platforms. It's not even good at catching landing as most dairs will go through it due to zelda's arms not being intangible.
Nair is a whole can of worms. It is one of the only multi hit that does not use the auto link angle. This makes it both inconsistent if zelda is moving as well as prevent it from being used in drag down combos. The hitbox is also to high to be buffered from the ground, tends to launch your opponent in the opposite direction of your drift, and is fairly unsafe to land on shield with.
Her up air gives a lot to be desired. It's the second slowest up air being faster than sephiroth and slower than ike's. Unlike those up airs, its hit box is not nearly as big making it quite difficult to land.
Zelda really struggles to approach due to fact that her mobility sucks and she doesn't have a safe approaching aerial. Her safest aerial is -8 which will still get you shield grabbed by most of the cast.
She also struggles to alleviate pressure. Fair and bair don't auto cancel when buffered making them very risky to use. Her shield grab is frame 14 which is slow. Nair is useless out of shield. Up smash is basically useless out of shield. And up b is incredibly risky.
Her air to air combat is also not great. Fair and bair are both far too small and precise to contest other characters in the air. Nair is zelda's only constant option in air to air situations but it has its own consistency issues and lacks the reward a lot of other moves provide other characters.
To fix zelda, i would dramatically increase her air mobility, reworked a few of her hitboxes to connect better or combo, alter some of the frame data, increase the hit stun of sour spot fair/bair so it isn't unsafe on hit, maybe even tweek her specials a bit to make them function a bit better
5:50 that is well stated about Ganondorf. It's kinda of interesting that Bowser is the opposite so much power or too much but very fast as a super-heavy it's factually nuts.
Bowser is the jack of all trades of Heavyweights, which is why he works.
Love this series since being introduced to you through your Robin video; great video addressing Ganon's somewhat conflicting reputation & appreciate how well-thought out & researched these are 😃
If Ganondorf had his extra jump after he does his down b like Melee, his recovery would improve so much. Majority of time his recovering back to stage is pretty bad.
"One strength doesn't validate someone with a lot of weaknesses"
Ganondorf is raw power, his attacks not only deal high damage, but high knockback. BUT everything else is bad. Movement speed, Vertical movement capacity, high endlag in every single one of his moves, even jab is quite punishable.
It's literally that, and more. Oof.
Paused halfway to write, "Something that would be cool is if they gave Ganon a float similar to Peach/Daisy. It would greatly improve his horizontal recovery and let him do nasty things with his neutral aerials." then it got mentioned...
Gosh Gannondorf is bad, but gosh is he fun. There is nothing like hitting someone three times and having them disintegrate.
To me, the only way to fully fix Ganon is to rework him almost entirely. He can still be the slow powerhouse of a character, but maybe we can actually make him a warlock? Fire balls, floats, kinda like his boss fight in Ocarina of Time? P+ gave him a float, and I think Project Legacy did something to the character that drastically changed him, basically turning him into a heavy battle mage character? They could do that but choose not to.
6:22 hey that's me LOL
The float in Smash S is from Ocarina of Time. In the battle in Ganon's Castle between him and Link, Ganon floats above the stage and throws projectiles at Link.
We got not one, but TWO Dedede mentions this time boys. Our time will come soon enough
Also you're sorta right about gordos. In theory they COULD be used to pressure at a distance...if any attack dealing 2% or more didn't just swat it away. Trading with other projectiles is out of the question as well smh
Luigi plunger reflecting Gordo makes me very upset
@@krakatoa1374 God whoever decided that should be a thing. Luigi already had fireballs to deal with gordo so it's a double fu-q to Dedede
I don't play Smash anymore, but I still watch montages and highlights. And let me tell you... It doesn't matter if he's "bad". There isn't a single character more satisfying or hype to play or watch than Ganondorf. You can feel the power behind every hit and that's what makes him the best. If they were to change anything about his specials, it shouldn't be his Neutral, Side, or Down. Those are hype. Give him a Zelda-esque teleport that has an explosion on landing. Allow his sword hits to reflect projectiles. Let his Down Special power through projectiles. In fact, do add something to his Neutral Special, give it a projectile energy ball that he can launch from the punch.
There were plenty of missed ops for improving Ganon but he's still the most hype character in the game.
the new forward smash is considered by most Ganondorf players to be a nerf. The comically bad frame data wasn't worth the range and power trade-off, not to mention the elbow used to have insane leanback
new usmash is BROKEN though
I can see it. That sword is now reactable, unlike the previous F-Smash. There's not a singular move who is both reactable and good.
Amazing video. Well handled breakdown, description, division of his strengths and weaknesses, reasons for results, and understanding of why he ends up where he ends up. Glad to see your back to making purely great videos again, I love each one. Thanks, truly
Ganondorf: Hits hard
SSB4 Ganondorf: Hits hard
SSBU Ganondorf: Hits hard but with a sword now
Meanwhile, Brawl Ganondorf: hits...?
@@anothenblue2630 imagine hitting something
@@Zigzorark *cries in Ivysaur*
@@anothenblue2630 Imagine not using Flare Blitz
@@Zigzorark that's not even a thing in Brawl
what makes a strong ganondorf player is their ability to read their opponnent. You need to be able to know what they are going to do before they do it. so a gannondorf spends their first stock testing the opponent in various situations like: How do they like to tech flamechoke? What's their go to ledge strat? then gannondorf begins to make hard reads and "lock out" some of the opponent's strategies. Nobody wants to get hit by gannondorf, and while the opponent is running out of options, they begin to feel fear. Once fear is achieved, defeat is inevitable .
to beat gannondorf, one must succeed in staying unpredictable, which can be hard as you are avoiding all kinds of deadly strikes, while keeping track of your own movements and trying not to let out any info.
for gannondorf mains we are the most analytical, get-inside-your-head mofos of all time.
I main Ganondorf since Melee. I really don't mind if he is the worst character in all the games (which he is), but I still have so much fun playing him. A shame Nintendo never gave him a major moveset rework like Bowser got (in Ultimate they just literally gave him Ike's Up Smash and Cloud's Down Smash and called it a day).
Project M and Ultimate S perfectly captured the essence of what Ganondorf should be in Smash, from a character fantasy perspective (a bulk Spellfighter). yet I really like his semi-clone moveset from Captain Falcon; there is something really satisfying in landing his Down Aerial and Meteoring Smash foes at 0%.
all this talk about recovery options has me thinking about Isabelle and her range of recovery options. I'm excited for the day you post "Why NO ONE Plays: Isabelle"
Isabella is all bark and no bite. You can get out of almost anything and dance around, giving chip damage, grabbing and throwing, and generally being a nuisance, but it's really quite difficult to kill with Isabelle. Her hard hitting moves don't hit that hard and they are quite slow. At least Villager has things like Bowling Ball and Tree to send people at high damage. What does Isabelle have?
@@reverse_engineered fishing rod upthrow at kill percent, being a nuisance with the buried gyroid, party popper, pocket for projectile heavy characters, a decent nair
also her bells jingle while she walks
All the other heavies have some kind of attribute that makes them threatening to offset their large hitboxes, relative slowness, and worst of all, abysmall recovery. All the other heavies are either decently fast or have great zoning and ledge trapping (like DDD or Krool). The closest to Ganon would be incineroar but incineroar is way better simply due to having a better recovery, revenge, slightly better OOS maybe, and his side b actually kills instead of like ganon having to make another read to maybe kill and even then incineroar kills earlier then Ganon side b into dash attack or dtilt I think.
Also, Incineroar has actual good frame data so his moves are easier to use.
I think it would be fair to grant him a similar mechanic to peaches float, especially seeing as he is based on his Oot incarnation who literally levitates during his boss battle.
Ganondorf rocks, even if he does get bodied in the tournament sense. Nothing more satisfying than down airing peeps into the dirt!
It also doesn't help that he has a severe lack of almost anything intangible, even Donkey Kong who is similarly regarded as a poor heavyweight has some good, fast moves with intangibility both on the ground (like f-tilt and d-tilt) and in the air (like u-air). So when Ganon uses options to get out of disadvantage he is very likely to trade, potentially leaving him in just as bad a spot.
Do you think a character’s visuals have anything to do with their popularity? For example, if Pyra/Mythra we’re really ugly, would people play them as much. On the contrary, if ganondorf was very attractive (think sett from lol) would he be any more popular?
At lower levels of play probably but at higher levels I doubt it
I mean captain falcon is played just because he looks cool if he had moves the look like little Mac but had the same hit box way less people would play him just because he’s less satisfying
Maybe if Steve wasn't a major counter example
Ganon would still be very unpopular (at high levels) because hes just that bad.
@@billystorm5347 You also have to factor in a character's history when coming to or staying in smash bros. Capt. Falcon is has a *legacy* throughout the series, and thus is likewise played *because* of such, although, him looking cool was likely a starting point for a person's dedication to the Captain.
I'm really glad such an informative video like this exists. Could you make a video explaining why water is wet?
Ganon is hard to balance because he's overpowered in free for all and at low level of play, but not very good at high/top level
any more speed or air mobility would make him too oppressive in the right hands.
There are plenty of things low level players don't appreciate and use, like oos options
@@freddiesimmons1394 hence why he doesnt have any.
@@ayar2 but I mean they could have given him some without affecting his low level stomping.
@@freddiesimmons1394 I would be pointless, he´ll still be bad competitively, because he wasn´t really designed with that in mind (much like hero and little mac)
12:30 In Ocarina of Time, the first phase against Gannondorf has him floating in the air.
Ganondorf becoming one of the worst characters in smash history is kinda ironic for a guy that has nearly taken over the world several times in his series
Feels like a revenge for all of his crimes lol
I think you got the title wrong...
It should have been why everyone plays: Ganondorf ;)
Awesome video as always, it's a shame Ganondorf is really bad "again" in my opinion he really needs a complete overhaul similar to Project M.
Tournament wise I agree he sees next to no usage, but in the for fun, casual scene, and online he is used by literally everyone as a pocket (myself included)
It's almost impossible not having a blast when playing Ganondorf even though he is bad.
if there ever is a smash 6 i hope they fix ganondorfs mobility issues at least a bit, make him more true to his source material while also keeping true to what makes him fun in smash
Id rather they give Blood Flacon as the heavier Cpt Falcon moveset and rework Ganon.
He's just too different from the source material
Honestly his old moveset should be transferred over to Black Shadow
11:16 Wizard's Foot actually beats Firebreath really really well. For some reason almost no Ganon players do that, but you can punish Bowser and Charizward really well with that
Ganondorf's an interesting character. Despite him being the worst fighter... I have often seen Ganon in competitive play and especially on clips from those said tournaments.
Ganon clips are much more hype to see because at least Ganon players take the time and effort to learn the character rather than abusing the annoying move like Steve,Pissra,Zero Skill Spamus,Pikachu,Ness,etc
@@albertthepeacock8020 a warlock punch landing is always funny to me.
@@Zekken_The_Lodestar Down tilt is even more hype.
@@antoineguerrier2965 the one with the charge up is up tilt. If that's what you meant.
@@Zekken_The_Lodestar Oh right, my bad.
Having that float move would be a massive game changer! I also agree with the statement that wizard’s foot should break through projectiles.
DORIYAH!
Ganon with float is the scariest thing to recover from
he need custom move back
They need to ditch the Captain Falcon move set rip off.
His A moves are not the problem.
Except up tilt wtf were they thinking
11:16 You got one thing wrong anout his down b. It gets completely stuffed out by projectiles on START UP. I try to hit projectiles about a quarter second after the move starts, or after Down B has moved forward by a length of about 1 Ganondorf. If you can properly react/read someone using a projectile then you can preemptively use wizards foot to punish and defend at the same time.
If you do this successfully it doesnt even clank with projectiles, it straight up just eats them. Samus full charge shot I think still beats it out, but I'd be confident using down b with a 70% charge shot if I see it coming.
He suffered from Smash 4 Little Mac Syndrome. People thought he was good in the beginning of the game, but players later realized how exploitable their weaknesses were and are now seen as low tiers.
This video should’ve been called “Why NO ONE (But Also Everyone) Plays Ganondorf”
Smash bros Ganon is basically what happens when you give Glass Joe the triforce of power.
Ganon:
99 strength
0 endurance
0 dexterity
-1237126 inteligence
99% chances of dying off stage
100% proved my profesional smashers
Ganon got shafted hard by Sakurai going the extra mile to include him in Melee. It was obviously really great to have him in game, but it lumbered one of Nintendos most iconic villains with a moveset that was stolen from a pilot in a racing game, which was itself made up from thin air.
I hope that in the next Smash the inevitable roster reduction is met by existing moveset being completely overhauled to allow characters like Ganon to shine. 😊
3:35 "...Ganon received _new_ Smash attacks."
And by new, you mean Ike's up and forward smash, and Cloud's down smash.
12:30 Looks like it's a modification of his up normal from Brawl without the huge charge and fire.
The reason why people would mod Ganon to be able to float like that is because in Zelda proper, while he's no stranger to getting physical with Link, he's equally proficient, if more more proficient with magic, so a game accurate version of Ganon would actually be more a zoner with a good "Get off me" tool than a superheavy grappler
But there's a MASSIVE issue: Zoning won't sell you the core idea of Ganondorf. You see, he's the definition of sheer corrupted power (Is literally on his lore), and Zoners must trade power for that range, therefore becoming less powerful.
A "Get off me" tool ? Sure, wanting to punish approaches hard is compatible with raw power and is indeed more options. A reflector? I don't mind it, the concept of reflecting his moves is very prevalent on his games and can indeed be complementary to his gameplay, and some reflectors are indeed get off me tools. Actual Zoning? That's just a terrible idea, and way too safe for the desired style of heavyweights.
There's a reason that mod didn't gave him proyectiles but a float, to give him the options he's lacking to use that raw power, as well as that unreliable teleport to deal damage, because he needs anti-zoning tools to unleash his fantasy, not zoning tools.
The fact that you used a gungnir vod from a tamisuma bracket is spot on for representation
Basically Ganon relies too much on fear. As long as the opponent is able to keep a cool head and play around his threat range and gimp him Ganon isn't really much of a threat.
I've played ganondorf for years and I think I can sum up my experience why I keep choosing him:
no other character makes punishing so satisfying.
Ganondorf should be the most powerful character in the game. He needs to be able to recover fast so he can compete against fast characters. Noone should be able to match him. Ganondorf is actually the most powerful character in the game, he just needs faster recovery options to fully come into his role