Adjusting Insert Heights on a Sandvik 590 Facemill!
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Adjusting insert pockets on a Sandvik 590 Facemill for the HAAS VM3!
Noga Mag base: amzn.to/2kWmelP
Sandvik 245: amzn.to/2mc4rqZ
Sandvik 590: amzn.to/2kWnq8I
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Music copyrighted by John Saunders 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH
Hey John you should get a 10ths dial indicator and use a flat shoe for it, give you a nice big surface making it way easier to find the height of the inserts. Next step is a tool setter, to bad a good one is many thousands of moneyies ;)
They can be found used, in mint condition and reasonably priced even for garage shops/hobbyists very regularly.
No need to buy something simple new just to get a nice OEM plastic wrapper. Especially if it's one of the non-essentials.
The 2 main reasons you had such a hard time getting the dial to read zero are the tip you are using and the way you adjust your indicator. When measuring stuff like this you want to use the biggest tip you have, flat bottom would be best.
When finding your zero, don't use the adjustment on noga base because you're moving the indicator around. The tiny ball on your indicator tip combined with the tiny point on the insert you're trying to find makes this very difficult. Just find the highest point of contact between the ball and insert then adjust your Z axis in the machine to zero, way easier.
Also, I strongly recommend using a wiper insert. It will give you incredible finishes you never thought you would achieve with just milling. The only downside is it's a single use insert so your tooling costs go up, but in aluminum I doubt it will be much of an issue
ua-cam.com/video/h2D0NGqUIVE/v-deo.html
A flat bottom tenth indicator? Lol, that's a joke right? Or are you thinking to use some junk thou travel dial?
nice work John. just want to let you know you can do that on your surface plate so you're not leaning over your machine. just take the cutter out of the holder.
happy chip makin
Will be interesting to see how well the inserts keep their position after some cutting.
Been using this tool for about 3 years and there is no need for loctite at all.
But ok how he measures those tools is painful to me, i've been working with cnc for about 10 years now and we have optic scanners to measures tools to get accurate "teeth" positioning.
I do not use the imperial system where I live, but i have a 63 mm 590 (it's about 2.5 inches i think) i can mill quite hard with it in a 5 axis Mazak 500, it has never come loose.
Eggsr2bcrushed
NEVER loctite insert screws! They explicitly instruct you to use anti-seize on the screws... the exact opposite of what loctite is.
The inserts will wear more than they will move in the holder. Screws have incredible holding power especially when wedged against a solid face like that. Inserts often break and the screw remains intact in the same spot.
Eggsr2bcrushed
If your insert screws are coming loose, you're doing something wrong. You are either not torquing them down correctly, using the wrong screw, or the threads on either the screw of the body are damaged.
Zero, repeat zero need to ever put any kind of loctite on insert screws.
Loctite expands to fill voids, if you get some between the insert face and body, you'll push out the insert by a couple of thou and it won't be seated correctly.
Man, tenths indicators will make a proud man humble.
Awesome job John! I really like it.
About the mini pallet, I like it and would like to have one but have two questions:
- Do you ship to EU and can you put estimates on the website for shipping to EU?
- Did you consider making a metric version? I would be primarily interested in a metric version.
Thank you for your time
I've been running this series by sandvik for awhile. I use it for facing and shoulder milling. It is a work horse. I set mine in a parlec tool setter, put that on your to buy list next.
I'm not a machinist but one day would love to make some chips as a hobby. Working on Aircraft we use a screwdriver TQ wrench when screw TQ is called out. You could get one and set the initial TQ on the adjustment screws all the same, say like 3 or 5 inch /lbs then check where all the inserts fall with the indicator ( as others have mentioned ) but I'm not sure if it would be worth the money or time. Great videos and like you I'm always learning.
I agree that the adjustment deforms the material, but not beyond its elasticity. Nice camera shots!
That is awesome! Haven't seen an adjustable insert tool like that before.
Looking at the slits in the adjuster where the cone head screw inserts, I'd almost agree that it is springing the steel by .0001's...slick design. It's probably not really deforming as much as springing though, since you'd need to be able to back off adjustment. Love this stuff man. Hope I can make it to open house.
I own a digital test indicator. Not worth it.
Also your indicator ball is the wrong way. You're getting odd readings because your turning into the ball tip and applying forward pressure to the lever. Flip the indicator ball the other direction.
Occams Sawzall I think this tip is critical, no pun intended.
This is also an application where a vertical test indicator will shine and is worth every penny
Kor409 yes/no. He's going backwards and forwards over it. And on a tenths indicator impinging the ball and lever like that knocks it out of whack a little every time.
Occams Sawzall Agreed!
Occams Sawzall x
Just did one of these. I used a cheap granite based indicator stand. It's critical that the vertical shaft is square to the granite. I bought a cheap one and had to re-turn the end on a lathe to get it square. I used a Mitutoyo digital indicator with a CARBIDE flat face tip. I agree normally analog is better, but this is the exception. Bolt the indicator loose enough to move it square to the granite on the pivot, but tight enough you won't bump it. Start with the wiper to make sure the face of the indicator flat is parallel to the granite in BOTH directions. You may need to bump it a little. Once you get consistent numbers from sliding it around under the tip, you will get a range for each tooth. My range was about +/-.00010 depending on where I slid it under the tip. Lastly come back and make the wiper proud of the other 5 teeth. I got the cutting inserts to within .00005" of one another except the accuracy on the indicator is only +/- .0001. Also, I used a popsicle stick to lift the tip gently and set it on the next insert. If it springs back it will bump the indicator out of position and you will have to start over. BTW totally jealous of the VM3. I only have access to a TM2, but it's only a hobby, so.... Oh and it's worth buying the indicator tip from a major brand. The cheap ones aren't ground square to the shaft.
After setting up the 590 I decided to measure a non adjustable face mill for comparison. On my Sandvik 345 I measured pretty good alignment. The highest insert to the lowest was about .00025. 2.5 ten thousandths doesn't seem bad for just screwing in some inserts on top of carbide shims. I'm hoping the 590 was worth it over a 245 or other good quality tool like a Kyocera or Mitsubishi.
I love watching stuff like this even though the SuperFly does all I really need to do on my low horsepower machine without any adjusting multiple inserts.
I've had to dial in inserts before but i used the height setter on each insert. The setter was just a dial mounted to a block on the table so we could just fed into 0 on each insert and adjust accordingly
Still loving your videos, as always NYC, it has been quite a while since I have commented on anything. 1 recommendation I would give you when setting the carbides is to use a tenths dial indicator with a small flat style contact point. once you make sure your dial indicator is positioned correctly it should make this much easier. (without having to mess with a silly digital)
can't wait to see the surface finish you are able to get with that 590.
-Morgan
Shars makes an indicator in their Aventor line. I have one and it is very nice, a little big, but spot on.
I believe it's the cone of the adjuster screw head which is the "ramp" which pushes up the bumper.
The reading changing with the direction of rotation indicates (no pun intended) the Noga "stalk" is leaning left or right (or some combined vector) under the influence of the pressure required to overcome the dial test indicators spring combined with the sticktion of the inserts edges and their contact with the ball. In one direction it amounts to a sharp edge engaging the ball at something below the top surface, which means having to climb rapidly. In the other direction you are coming off the gradual slope of the insert edge, with your contact patch (single spot) higher on the ball top. As with most things in machining, these directional anomalies are usually solved with nothing more than coming in from the same direction each time.
I use a gauge block and slide it under each tip to set the height. I usually use the top of the fixed vise jaw as my reference surface.
nice video, if these inserts are that sensitive, try using a magnetic angle gauge ( aka what mechanics use for angle based torque setting on bolts), this would provide the accuracy required, just use angles ie: 30' or 5 deg. and would save all the back & forward of the adjusters!!
Gib? dead nuts!!!! spot on!!! A virtual dictionary of Limey machine terms!
Wiper method is the way to go, the only pass that matters for finish is the last one. Plow plow plow, slow way down finish pass. :-) I believe at the end of the day that is the most productive method. Setting all those inserts everytime they are replaced is very time consuming and also as they wear it is likely they won't do it evenly and they could need readjusting in mid life to maintain the desired finish. Should you be able to coax one to fall from the sky I would love to see you try a face burnishing tool for this. I think you would love it and it will give your palletts a slightly harder face for better wear and scratch resistance.
traditionally, insert setting milling like this are meant to be used with PCD inserts, which are not changed like you would carbide inserts on inconel. i guess they assume this is common sense but wouldn't mind not telling the consumer if he's dumb enough to throw his money at it.
Best do it off the machine on a surface table but use a flat carbide dial indicator anvil which allows you to find the highest insert position saving lots of time and effort for excellent accuracy. The 590 has PCD & CBN insert options.
I literally just did this yesterday. Exactly the way you tried it. It was a complete pain in the ass. Once you turn the cam it not only pushes the insert lower it also pushes it past the ball on your mitutoyo... So you have to make sure it can resweep across the ball.
Interesting. I would have thought that the tapered head of the little screws that adjust the inserts push against the taper of the bottom of the insert, so as you drive the screw in, it pushes the insert up or down.
How's the back after that lean? They make bench tool setters and I believe you can get them with digital.
You might like Dan Gelbart's demo on flextures...I didn't ever think that things like that existed, but basically deforming a part of something is much more accurate than moving something!
only if there are no internal stress in the part, as those make the deformation deviate from predictability of deformation.
You will sill get the movement you want and you would still be precise and repeatable!
What safety measures do these CNCs have? For instance could it cut with the door open?
Max Maker if you unhook the door safety then yes
some machines will not run with door open, with no way to bypass this feature. i think this has become a standard thing in modern machines, it is a manufacturing code all companies must follow, at least in europe.
meocats thats odd, because haas machines are not hard configured at all and they are quite global
but yeah it seems like all modern machines have some kind of safety.
probably because Haas is american. Peter Stanton's (edgeprecision on youtube) mazak integrex wont run without the doors closed.
JohnHolmestheSecond Haas machines going to Europe have always had mechanical interlocks on them, in addition to some other small things associated with location like a BT instead of a CT spindle, which really only had to do with drawbar differences to accommodate the difference between BT and CT pull studs. T-slot dimensions (IIRC, everything but the actual slot which is sized for either an imperial or metric dowel pin & I believe the slot/slot distance) _used_ to be different, but they were standardized sometime between ~05-10. I remember doing the testing for that one to make sure the same clamping force was available and the tables would stay together regardless of the T-nuts used. Many, many T-nuts lost their lives that day. 😓
During that same time period and prior, US machines just used proximity sensors, and they could be disabled to easily perform tool changes and run the machine with the doors open. The exception being the short lived laser cutter that was built on a MiniMill frame.
Not sure if that is still possible w/o voiding the warranty with Haas' "Safety First" initiative. Might never have been as I only engineered and used Haas stuff on site in Oxnard. But, white it's been ~6 years since I worked there, I still want to say I used a bunch of machines with production firmware and there was a simple user setting that could be changed to allow certain automatic machine operations/movements like next tool, axis zero setup, and sending the machine home with a rapid, etc, with the doors open.
Haven't really looked at Jon's VM-3, but if it has a mechanical door interlock, then all the current machines do as well.
I agree with everyone you need to get a flat tip for that indicator and use that. And anyways like Occams Sawzall said you need to flip the indicator around, you are putting pressure towards the stem of the indicator causing wacky readings.
Not sure if your machine has a gearbox, but I've found that switching to low gear with M41 before the M19 makes the spindle hold position a bit better when it's locked.
You need to use the flat tip on this indicator for that type of measurement ?
yes, you should.
You should consider getting an optical tool presetter, ideally one that's all-digital.
or a piece of cigarette paper
for highest precision finishing purposes: only a flat wiper with 0.004 inch being used with dry cutting only brings the result.
Therefore use of a second face mill only equipped with the flat wipers is appropriate.
Is a good strategy when best finishing results for surfaces matter.
Surely the measuring method can be improved :-) With a flat wiper it is also more easier.
Cool video! Those surface finishes your getting are badass! Maybe start making and selling aluminum shatter proof Mirrors? :)
theres a dude sunppaa on youtube milled aluminium recently and produce mirror finish without adjusting height on individual insert. you can see his face in the high def video.
John torx insert driver from sanvk is a torque wrench. keep turning until it clicks.
I can get great cuts with my face cutter but I run a light chip load. I'm wondering how much heavier cuts you can take with a dialed in set of inserts. Also curious how much difference the wiper makes. By the way, Sandvik shows dialing their inserts in with the indicator in place. No guess work. And what everyone else says about the indicator :)
If you're truly looking for precision finish and location on your parts, you should be surface grinding the top and jig grinding the holes. A Haas is a great machine, but definitely not made for super precise machining. Wasting time on your insert height is only lost money... start with places you could save time, polishing the machining marks out would be cheaper than readjusting those teeth
with this application would it be best to use a torque wrench type of tool to have a specific torque values that would relate to the same amount of deformation per seat?
id use a tool height setting clock, as the large contact pad read the lowest point of the tip
saw the prices on the face mills and I know that's what shops pay for the good stuff but damn thats so expensive just for a face mill head, I'm curious and like to request if possible to do a video comparing the facing of the sandvick versus one of the face mills available from aliexpress? be interesting to see the difference and if it justifies the price jump
I love your videos.
Video shows a Sandvik 590, not 245 or 290?? Which is it?
how much do you think they're going to charge for those inserts, and do you plan on rechecking after every insert change?
using a 123 block to do that would be much better.
probe on the indicator is why your getting that fluctuation i am rather sure cause the probe does move a bit from side to side
I've always found a grinder with an all purpose disk (cutting of course) does the trick
Setting the 590 up with a dial test indicator is a huge PITA. A tenths indicator with a wide flat tip on it is the way to go I think... But I've already got $400 in my used 590, and another $200 in PCD inserts, so another $120 for an indicator to set it is getting absurd.
I think you are having trouble with zero because your indicator is moving back and forth when you adjust the base rather than just up and down.
as stated before the inserts have tolerances but the indicator tip that you are using wrong. try using a tip with a large radius.
flat -- NO RADIUS. also known as a toolsetter. Also known as a z-axis presetter.
looking forward to the cutting, didn't like that movement on lock..
Hey. Where is the follow up video?
If the inserts are quality, the tool is quality, the person setting up the tool knows what they're doing (all bits get rotated if one is damaged) then yes, they should be coplanar to within the tolerances of the components. If it's not, then one of those items isn't doing the job it was paid to do (hint: it's usually the human setting up the tool).
The inserts are quality, but they are also stupid expensive - 36 dollars each for the stainless inserts, with only two cutting edges.
Does anyone know what the comparative accuracy would be with doing it this way versus using the tool height setter to measure each insert?
Personally if I need a wiper insert finish. I just cheat and put a .001 shim in the insert pocket of a standard non-adjustable holder to offset it 😆
So you'd just fly cut with the one insert?
If you look at the specs for that indicator. It's only accurate within .0002.
Deforming the metal panel, I really don’t think that’s what’s going on… did you ever find out for sure like by contacting the manufacturer..???
Thanks John, I haven't ever seen that type of facemill before, I appreciate you sharing that.
When you're doing that type of measuring I think you would probably find it easier to use a Test Indicator instead of a DTI (ie use a plunger type). I use a Mitutoyo 2109s-10 which is a 1 um indicator, sorry I don't know what the equivalent is in imperial.
Either buy or make an "Elephant's Foot" or flat point for the indicator. Since you're in the US it may be just as easy to simply contact Rene and his team at Long Island Indicator and be done with it. I have no connection, but they are super nice people and exceptionally helpful. www.longislandindicator.com/p133.html As a rule of thumb it's best to measure flat objects with a round tip, and round objects with a flat tip. Trying to measure a round object with a round tip is, well, "tricky" as you know. With a flat tip it's a piece of cake.
Since I'm in Australia and a mega-tight-wad, I just made my own flat indicator tips. They're not at all hard to make, but for somebody in your position probably not worth messing with. Good luck with it.
you did this the totally wrong way. for starters do it on the granite plate, use a flat tip DIAL indicator. you can do this in 30 seconds 6 seconds per tip.
meocats if he had a known flat and calibrated plate and a correct cat 40 taper holder I would agree.
But seeing as he doesn't. In spindle is the better option. More of a pita yes, but more accurate results in his position
And I believe you mean a back plunger test indicator ;)
all you need is a B plate and two parallels, or the facemill directly on the plate. Don't worry, it is sandvik, the face is ground its not like the stuff you see from the chinese. Or, take 1 piece of shim stock, put turn the tool on the machine, until it barely, or equally grabs each cutting tip. The shim layed on the vice. Cheaper still? use a piece of bible paper, or cigarette rolling paper. The sad part is not using of the indicator, but the time lost. There is a guy on youtube calibrating optical flats to less than a micron with a 3 cornered piece of plywood, each corner has an aluminium nail in it, and in the center a brass screw. He demonstrates this device can differentiate between 1 micron out of of flat optical glass. the principle is the same, both methods rely on friction. Back to my first point: the point (no pun intended) of calibrating on the plate is to do your tools on the plate so the machine can run while you tighten screws. Perhaps there's a million and 1 ways to do it, but you are practicing a routine since it requires no particular intelligence to turn screws, therefore there's no point justifying a odd mickeymouse way of doing things. And after the dust has settled, what was the point? Was it not to produce the best milled finishes? The numbers on the indicator are irrelevant.
i didn't mean back plunge indicator --- grandpa's measures 10ths? really?
-its not better in the spindle, in practice, by a handful of reasons i've stated answering about 50 comments in this comment section.
Keep in mind that inserts have tolerances as well, so even if the pockets are machined "perfectly" in a non-adjustable tool, the inserts won't be the same. You can spend a ton of time tweaking this by shimming and flipping inserts... or spend a good chunk of money on an adjustable solution. Buyer's choice ;-)
correct me if I'm wrong but arent most milling cutters like this designed to have the inserts set at different heights???
you need a fixture to hold the tool,then use a hight gage and granite to dial in the inserts. Better than being a contortionist .
"All Tenths Matter"
(I see what you did there...)
Make 10ths great again!
Daniel And, "All 10ths Matter."
Daniel A lol I'm happy with .001!
Need to learn ! ..
No point in adjusting if the screw is not tightened to spec. You need to tighten until the tool you had clicks.
Time to preset correctly the tools!
dude must think these holders are made in some cut rate job shops...1 its a face mill, its not meant to make grinder accurate surfaces, 2 these tools are made to pretty exacting standards...3 as soon as that mill starts cutting the vibrations alone will cause surface irregularities...aluminum cutting problems i guess :D
lincolnmetal1 he isnt examining the tool holder at all, hes basically measuring the inserts. inserts are relatively inaccurate.
all 3 points are false
1. face mills are made adjustable this way, since forever, even in large diameters (>1 foot)
2. carbide insert standard is not to a tenth, hence number 1.
3. vibration are theoretically none in facemilling because of the full width, hence gentle easing of insert into and out of cut
3b. during finishing pass, it is very shallower
3c. not universal to aluminium. it is very relevant to plastics, laminated materials, brass, copper.
ive never used an adjustable face mill, i have never had the need. and yes, there are vibrations in face mills, its the nature of the beast, all cutting tools have vibrations in them while cutting whether its from the actual cutting and/or from the spindle. there is deflection as each flute/insert enters the cut.
its all depends on the model number on the insert, some are very tight some are less tight.
there are some reasons to also have the heads staggered in height. look at the 16 cutters on this storm vulcan blockmaster. ua-cam.com/video/p00o5tWxl-c/v-deo.html you want from cutter 1 thru cutter 16 to be a slightly different height so the first cutter is not very deep. the second cutter a little deeper.. and so on.. other wise you are only going to get a few thousands off the head.. i would want to check to see if cutter 1 on the adjustable has the blade sideways a few tenths more than 2, 3, 4 and 5. so it deepens the cut on 1, 2, 3, 4. and the flat bottom on 5 taking only a half a tenth more. might give you the fastest cutter speed across the surface and the best surface finish.. the rep probably told you this.. it all depends on how the factory set it up with slight lateral offsets in the grooves.
Hand finish.
just the tip
lol
John check out This old Tony Feb 2 Video on test indicators and Cosine Error starts at about 12:55, other have mentioned arm position in the comments as well. ua-cam.com/video/CE1epUFRgHA/v-deo.html
I ran into the same issue a few weeks back when trying to true my inserts on a Maritool 2.48 head. My indicator arm location was wildly incorrect compared to yours, but correcting my arm position in ref to the insert solved my arrant readings. Very interested on how you come out on this, I too am looking at getting a wiper for the Maritool if they make one in the SEHW
Cutter grinders demise.
If you can't afford a pre setter yet buy a cheap used shadow graph never set tools accurately this way
You want good surface finishes easy = Don't use a HAAS i understand you want to use American made machines to a certain extent buy a HURCO
Carlos HAAS is OK for Aluminum and Plastic....D2. A2, inconel, other tough to machine mtls look elsewhere.
Carlos I found Hurcos took over an hour to warm up and get good repeatability in z. This was on a VMC30 so it didn't have massive ball screws. I've not had this problem on other similar sized mills. Interestingly we had a really old Hass and that would cut the size you turned it off at the night before.
Josh Hanson your one of the very few then Why do think you never see Haas machines in any tier 1or 2 supplier
The simple answer is that I do see Haas's in Tier one aerospace suppliers. I consider Hurco to be more entry level machining centres. They're at the cheaper end of the market.
at my job we have the same (kind of) facemil only its about 2 time's the size ; )
we use:
-Trimos Vertical Digital Height Gauge
-a 100% square gauge block as insert for the trimos
-(cant find the 3e think on google so i wil try to explain it) you need a measuring "block"(not realy a block... it round) with the same tapperd inside as the toolholder
place tool in the measuring "block", zero the gauge insert on the heighst or lowest insert of the tool.
go arount and make them al zero.
its a job of ... 3-5 minutes
than again we also have the luxery of a www.frepa.be//upload/resized/5783a84f59148_nl-20160822100652-57bacebc37acf-02_DMG-MORI_UNO.jpg
no need to do all that stuff
Wasting time
what a pain in the ass that tool must be
only if operator is using it like an ass! they wouldn't be making them if the industry wasn't buying them!