This story wasn't just the origin story for the Joker but also Oracle, the first truly disabled hero in comics. (Daredevil doesn't count because of his heightened senses). Comics needed an Oracle. She was a character that showed personal tragedy doesn't always have to hold you back. The fact that she was once an established hero prior to that tragedy made her success as Oracle even more inspiring and potent. While Moore didn't intend for this new direction in her character, this dark story was the impetus for 2 important lessons to comic readers... 1. Even heroes can face life alterating tragedies. 2. Tragedies and disabilities don't have to hold you back. I loved the Oracle character. Like I said, her tragedy made her character even more inspiring. Because I loved that character so much, I tend to defend The Killing Joke's more more than I probably should.
I think comic books had been trending towards dark and gritty material well before 1988's The Killing Joke. The Punisher had been around since 1974. The Death Of Gwen Stacy killed off an important side character that had been a fan favorite for a decade plus. Crisis on Infinite Earths killed off Barry Allen Flash and Kara Zor-El Supergirl, both of which were dead for almost 20 years. Then we have to mention Moore's other dark comic, Watchmen, which got heavy into dark themes. Readers ate this up, so one could say The Killing Joke was just following an established trend instead setting one.
Pretty much agree Michael. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Sweet innocence destroyed. It's the same problem I have with new Star Trek. It's about imagination, not violence or snarkiness.
If I remember correctly, it’s the events of this book that eventually turned Barbara into Oracle which I really liked. I think she was a better character in that role and possibly more effective. Still when she opened that door, her reflex should have been to take the gun away from Joker and feed him that goofy hat while taking selfies with his camera. Thank you as always for another awesome Epic Comicbook Wednesday!
The whole story was written as a means of negating superheroines and female action heroes in particular. A female hero from the 1960s, such as Emma Peel, the high-kicking spy heroine from the BRITISH series The Avengers, could have disarmed the Joker and his leering sidekicks in a heartbeat. Alan Moore has always struck me as a misogynist. That was my young-woman evaluation of him, and it hasn't changed. Comics like this one only encourage incels. Only they called them "male chauvinist pigs" in my day. The emphasis of the latter phrase wasn't however on young men. Comics are aimed at youth. That is what makes ones like this one so dangerous. 👎
The good thing I can say about the darkest part of the story, once DC decided what happened happened, Barbara Gordon eclipsed her old identity as Oracle, she was great. Bolland's art is the one thing I really like the most, I agree with you about the story and its poisonous legacy. I hope the preCrisis silver age & early bronze age adventures of Batman are collected sooner rather than later so I can enjoy simpler times with the Cavalier, Maxie Zeus, Crazy Quilt and the other buffoons running amock and threatening Gotham over rediculous minutia.
Oracle was a great evolution of Barbara Gordon's character. She was such an inspiration, but I don't know if the fall and rise would have been as impactful if it hadn't been an established hero like Bargirl.
Weren't comics always supposed to be ENTERTAINING, as the name suggests? 😏 Really I think that this descent into "gritty" and pretty dull and fascist melodrama, was one of the WORST moves that US comics, particularly DC, could ever have made, during the 1980s. And I'm not just saying that with hindsight. Most of Japanese manga aren't like that. And they're all the better for it!
"Can one bad day drive a man insane?" I loved that question. This book really made you think on that. I know it gets a lot of grief because it treated what happened to Barbara Gordon in it as a prop, but it wasn't her story. If it was, they would have delved into it and Barb's side of things more. The Joker is a bad guy doing bad things, but I did like his joke at the end of the book. Thanks for the video, Michael.
I believe Alan Moore tried to atone for this with his Tom Strong comics. I agree with you completely that Superhero comics can work for adults without resorting to material that kids shouldn’t be reading. I know plenty of parents who are nervous about taking their kids into comic shops….sigh. Another great video!
Not read The Killing Joke but excellent point about kids being able to read Batman. Especially since a great introduction to mature stories for kids could be a Batman comic that while dark isn’t too graphic.
I think The Death of Gwen Stacy, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Watchmen had already started the ball rolling on darker comics before The Killing Joke came along.
This is a good one, both your discussion here and the graphic novel; I'm always happy to hear more Moore talk. I had been thinking about making a video about this one. I had it in my spreadsheet a couple of years ago, but it kept getting pushed back for other things.
This was a really rough one. The Batgirl scene was horrific, and the Joker’s use of that to torture Commissioner Gordon was a very effective way of punching the reader in the gut. Where was the Comics Code Authority on this one? 😉 Definitely due for another reread on this.
Why? It's vile! And when you KNOW what he's photographing, it's even viler! 👎 Honestly. That's like you saying you loved most the scene in a movie where Ted Bundy stands over one of his victims.. 😏
Ah yes, the book that got me into comics for the late 80s and 90s.. I think I have a first edition! :) And yeah, you are right -- so very gritty. At the time it was shocking how gritty everything felt, but now it looks quaint. And that's a great point about the difference between Miller and Moore. It reminds me of the Spiderman comics I read in the 70s.... always misunderstood, always persecuted, but also always trying to help regardless.
Waiting for this TV Video on pins and needles. A great video. My wife, daughters and myself learn so much from you and your episodes. A big Thank You from Mesopotamia in the Republic of Iraq
When this came out I had little attachment to DC comics. For whatever reason DC Comics unlike Marvel Comics were not in the magazine fundraisers of junior high. So I had mail subscriptions to a good amount of Marvel books. My DC reading was the post Crisis books that had been rebooted to a new #1 book that were easily found on store spinner racks. Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, and A Death in the Family were the 1,2,3 punch that made me a reader of Batman and kept me going out of my way to visit the comic book store. It's kind of amazing the lasting effects of this one little book even today. The recent Joker title, previous to the current one, was pretty much a Gordon as a pawn by others and his own drive in pursuit of killing the Joker. DC has introduced it's collection of 'One Bad Day' stories trying to give various Batman rogues their own Killing Joke substantial moment. The recent Three Jokers had connections to this too. My only attachment to Barbara Gordon was the 60's tv show so I, in a dark way, am thankful for this book giving me Oracle and Birds of Prey. John Ostrander, Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone gave me some of my favorite comics of all time because of the fall out of this book.
I remember DC being great back when I was a kid. My favorites were Tales of the Unexpected and Weird War but I like Batman and Superman too. Another absolute favorite was the Legion of Super Heroes because of the character interactions but you don't hear much about them anymore
@Tim Meyer The first Legion story I read was the death of Ferro Lad at the local barbershop when I was 8 or 9. After that I had to get as many as I could. I still have that 2 part story
Got this signed by Brian Bolland. It makes sense to read Batman Damned right after this one by Azzarello and Bermejo. Not spoiling anything, but, yeah, do it!
I agree with a lot of what you say. I think comics have gotten a little TOO adult oriented in the modern day. When you go to pick up Teen Titans and it's listed as Teen+, it's like you've got a book made about teens that kids shouldn't be reading. Same with Batman. When Batman and Detective Comics are Teen+, you're alienating the people you're trying to sell to. All that being said, I will say a few things about this book that I think put Mr. Moore in a better light even if he wouldn't agree. Batgirl had become a character kind of without a home. Whereas Robin had found success after wearing out his welcome with Batman, Batgirl was mostly a backup feature killing space in Detective Comics and Batman Family. Her stories tended to be of the variety of Batgirl moons over guy, fights villain, gets tied up and put in a death trap, escapes, beats bad guy. Wash, rinse, repeat. DC had tried to give her a little push around the time of Killing Joke, but it just wasn't taking. So, the door opened... As to the actual assault...I truly do not mean to offend anyone by using this comparison. But I might, so I apologize in advance. On 9/11/2001, terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Towers. No one saw that coming. The typical terrorist taking over planes situation tended to be terrorists take over and hold plane and people for ransom demands. They went against their usual tactic and shocked the world. I feel like this is kind of what happens with Barbara. 1)Who would open their front door and expect to see the Joker standing there? 2) The Commissioner does not know his daughter is Batgirl. Part of her reflexive training has been to always to protect her identity. If she launches into a martial arts fight at the door, there goes her secret. Also, bullets flying all over the room could endanger her father. The swift thing would just be to throw down and fight. But she has been trained by Batman to be EVEN FASTER, so the next thought would be to protect others and play along until she could get away and switch to Batgirl. 3) Joker has a tendency to take people hostage and use them for bait. He HAD become more vicious by this point in the comics world, but he is still kind of predictable. It goes against his grain to just shoot someone right off of the bat. Barbara is taken by surprise with a new tactic and pays the price. It's almost as if if Joker had known she was Batgirl, he might not have shot her. But Barbara Gordon is just someone to make a point with to Jim Gordon. The other thing that justifies this book somewhat is that it was sold in Comic Specialty shops and comic ads. Not on newstands or drug stores. Any shop owner worth their salt would have never sold this to a kid. I'm sure some did because it happens. But on average, it was marketed to adults. But you are right, the newstand books started getting far too dark after this. The one that stands out to me is the Death of Robin. That scene where Joker beats him with the crowbar and then the scene where Batman takes his burned body from the ashes is just too much for young eyes. I saw that one as a teen and thought it was too far. On the one hand, it signaled we were in a new world of comics. But it's also safe to say not everything about that more realistic world is good. Finally, at the very least good things came out of the story. Barbara Gordon turns back up not long after as Oracle and if anything, this made her a more interesting character. She doesn't let being in a wheelchair stop her. She uses her detective and computer skills to become far more useful to the Bat Family than she might have been otherwise. She was also a role model for people with special needs. She was the poster character for moving past being "handicapped" to being someone with a health issue that was still a formidable individual. If anything, there has been quite a bit of flack since DC made her "normal" again in the New 52 era. Regardless, I'm a Batgirl fan from way back and I enjoy seeing the character in her many iterations. It might have been an accident, but she became more popular after this graphic novel than before. The story is rough to read and that animated film adaptation might have made it sleazier. But, in the long run, I think this issue showed that one bad day WON'T break someone that refuses to be broken. And I'm not talking about Jim Gordon. This could have been the end of Barbara Gordon, but she comes back as a far more nuanced character than she was before this. And that was something good at least.
I was about to argue with you about Batgirl’s reaction to the Joker but then realized she isn’t real and there’s no way to know what her reactions would actually be! 😅 I still think that whole scene sucked terribly though I will admit there are many good things to be said about Oracle.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Yeah, it's just my opinion. Honestly, Killing Joke is not my favorite Batman book. I think you nailed it when you said DC editorial just considered Alan Moore their Golden Child and they didn't want to say "no" to anything he popped up with. His changes to Swamp Thing had brought new life to a floundering character and when they showed faith in the story by putting it out without the Comics Code, it worked out. I think what they didn't understand was that Swamp Thing was a horror character and you could play with him a little and it wouldn't hurt. Sales were terrible at the time, anyway. But messing with the status quo of one of your flagship characters...Maybe not the smartest move in the long run.
The 1980s were grim and gritty in comics because they reflected the society in which they were created, and that society was set on its grim and gritty course ultimately by it leaders, Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK, with their business-driven free-market economic policies, minimal government involvement and disregard for the worker. I agree Michael, there won't be a better origin for the Joker and it should have become canon. In Moore's defence, I imagine that Barbara Gordon was so shocked to see the Joker at her door - in her civilian environment, in her non-hero identity as Barbara and not Batgirl, outside office hours as it were; but I do see your point. I think Batgirl just didn't have time to override Barbara's shock and take over. Kids were not going to casually buy this book: firstly, it was direct market only so not available at newsstands; secondly, at $3.95 for the first three printings and $4.95 for subsequent printings, it was far costlier than a 75 cent regular comic and kids would see greater value in five regular books for $3.75 than one Batman comic for nearly $4. I really recommend three follow-ons from The Killing Joke: the Barbara Gordon story from The Batman Chronicles #5 (1996), Booster Gold #5 (2008) and The Brave And The Bold #33 (2010). All add new perspectives to the source story and are very well done. Thanks for another great video Michael.
I was looking forward to this, and it’s typically well presented and well argued. The Killing Joke was an important read for me when it came out because it reignited my interest in the comic form and what became known as graphic novels. Awesome video Mike.
If I’m not mistaken, Alan Moore has said he always intended this story to be an Elseworlds tale, and was surprised to see Barbara’s crippling incorporated into main DC continuity. While I definitely agree it’s a horrific moment in the comic, one thing I don’t see mentioned often in relation to TKJ is that Barbara Gordon was far from a popular character at the time. (Unsurprising, really - DC certainly wasn’t going to take a popular character permanently off the board.) Other than quick cameos in Crisis, she’d last appeared as Batgirl in 1983, a full five years before this story came out, and was basically retired. (She’d had a few non-costumed appearances as Barbara Gordon since then.) That’s not to defend what was done to the character, I just find it interesting - were it not for Alan Moore crippling her and the Ostranders making her Oracle over in Suicide Squad, who knows… Barbara Gordon might well have faded into obscurity, rather than becoming Oracle and paving the way for the even better Batgirls we got after her!
I have a theory that perhaps the reason why Barb didn’t dodge the Joker’s gun is because she was in civilian mode and would have been more careful if she was in Batgirl gear, and I guess that happens is because since horrible things would rarely happen to her when she’s out as Barbara, her alertness when tame. Maybe…………
Killing Joke remains a great story but it is very stark and became one of the ultra influential works to reinvent comics in people’s minds. I don’t think it’s one of the all time greats but I truly appreciate it like most Alan Moore stories. It plays with philosophy and what if scenarios and should be taken as the psychological treatise it is. It was a one-off. The single best element was the open ending left up to the reader’s interpretation. I hated what this book did to Barbara’s character but came to realize it was never meant to be a canon tale-DC merely adapted it into the main continuity. Yet I do love her later reinvention as Oracle so it’s a trade off. Though it’s nice to hear other Babs fans express frustrations about Killing Joke still. I did enjoy some of the run where they finally undid her paralysis. (Especially since Bruce was magically healed at the end of Knightfall) I need to get a physical copy for my collection but I’m not a fan of the modern recoloring on current editions. It has been overused, over referenced, and adapted on various ways FAR too many times. The dtv animated film material developed to pad out the runtime was atrocious. The editors then were taking risks but things weren’t meant to continue down this path forever. And of course if you want to talk about not properly using a character there is the 80’s DC run of The Shadow….😂
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 I heard all the fan gripes and though it can’t possibly be that bad…what the heck?!?! Though admittedly it did hit its stride much more when the writers changed and the last half of the run added wickedly dark humor. That explains the ending with RoboShadow…🤣 I still have collected most of them because I’m a completist. The DC Doc Savage is supposed to be pretty divisive but I haven’t read those yet.
As a single story you like it or hate it - whatever’s your take is a matter of taste and that’s fine. That being said, I’ve never ever got why people get so stuck up with continuity when it’s obvious no matter how much the creative team and editorial are “faithful” to it you are gonna have a different version of it. You can choose what continuity to consider and which to ignore - it’s fiction, not a periodical documentary of real life characters, dammit. Nobody gives two craps about 60’s rainbow Batman (except Grant Morrison) and few remember that the very first version of Batman actually killed criminals.
I heard some many good things about this book for so long that when I finally read it I was kind of disappointed, mainly by how short it was but also because I had no idea what happened at the end. It is a great story of Jokers though and I'll probably upgrade my deluxe HC to an Absolute soon.
This was my first Batman comic and my favourite ever since. Neither the Joker nor did I know that Barbara was batgirl, I have to think she was just a girl here.
The worst thing about this comic was the way in which Alan Moore knocked out a quick story for a Batman Annual, only to have Brian Bolland take so long over the artwork - while he was still working on it, Watchmen was published to huge critical acclaim - and DC upgraded this fairly early work by Moore to a standalone squarebound special, which was then judged as Moore's follow-up to Watchmen. I hadn't realised until I watched Steve's video that the story idea was actually Bolland's. I do remember Moore telling me at a London comic mart that he had a Batman Annual to knock out over the weekend, which shows how much thought he put into it. It was definitely a mistake, and I'm not surprised he's since disowned it.
I personally was neither torn or conflicted about this one, I despised it when I first read it and I despise it now. By the time I eventually got around to reading this garbage, I was pretty much over Moore's favorite plot device. I don't even remember when it all dawned on me, the killing joke, swamp thing, loxg, From Hell, V for Vendetta, MiracleMan, watchmen, Neonomicon, Providence. I know I've probably missed a few but the point is that every one of these Moore penned comic books contains at least one rape/sexual assault on a female character in it's pages. Some are incredibly violent and graphic and some are just nauseating even for people who enjoy violence. Arguably the greatest comic book writer in history should be more creative than this is all I'm saying. The entire Providence trilogy, the Saga of the Swamp Thing and MiracleMan are 3 of my favorite books to this day. I think Moore is brilliant, doesn't mean the wizard/grizzly Adams looking MFer couldn't use a lesson in humility every once in a while 🤷♂️
The run down carnival place ... the first place the Batman would check. I agree, Batgirl would have easily beaten the Joker in that scene. Good editing would resolve many of these issues. Great video as ever.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Ha, he is always at those places, how many of them are there in Gotham ? Really enjoyed your video, must get out my copy of Killing Joke, Bolland is one of my favourites
I read this back in 2017 and thought it was an amazing book! I am, however, not as well-versed when it comes to the DC Comic Universe and was approaching this on the basis of its story and what I knew about the characters. Making Barbara Gordon a plot device rather than Batgirl was not a route worth taking, though. Making it a cop out to tell your story is never the right thing to do when you have limitations based on the layout of the Batman comics in general. I agree 110% that this is the most believable backstory for the Joker. He has brought up a lot of stories about himself, but he was thinking irrationally when he told them and the stories are inconsistent with one another. I can see where the details to this particular story could have really driven the Joker mad. It is interesting that his real name was not mentioned throughout the backstory either. The one thing I know about Batman is that he never used guns as part of his weaponry or attacks on villains and criminals, because his parents were killed from guns. I think that his actions toward the Joker demonstrated his ability to reason and that heroes can do more than beat up the bad guys in the text. I approached this as a standalone piece that stood separately from other Batman stories and as a standalone piece it did very well. As part of a series, though, a lot would need to be explained in order to convince those that are well versed Batman comic enthusiasts. Alan Moore had also just finished Watchmen, which is viewed as and has been ranked as the greatest graphic novel of all-time. Having Alan Moore writing Batman is like having Cher covering ABBA and giving her complete freedom, based on either legendary status or being at the height of their success. Thank you for sharing! -Josh
I re-read it recently and agree pretty much with what you say. But on the re-read I finally "got" the ending. Another jolt to the DCU at the time...which I missed entirely. I didn't see it on earlier readings. But a panel by panel view of the last page made it fit into place. I think there is some discussion on it on forums etc and I don't want to give spoilers to those that haven't read it. But I feel a bit of an eejit for missing it on earlier read throughs.
Does anyone think that batman killed Joker at the end. The light goes out in the last panel. Joker told the killing joke, and bats realized there was no redemption possible
I’ve heard that theory but it seems like nonsense. Gordon had just told him to capture Joker by the book for one thing. Also, the police were clearly just pulling up. Bad time for Batman to flip his moral code and kill somebody.
I happen to have this on my shelf actually. Interesting take here. It is pretty telling that Alan Moore has basically disowned this work. I do think that comics should be free to tell dark stories, but you're very right that the "darkness" endemic in modern comics is basically just a curtain for bad writers to hide behind. If there's a point to it, then go for it, but if you're just trying to be edgy then don't bother. Otherwise you just get a lot of nasty, cringey stories with no real value.
All that's telling about it is that Alan Moore bowed to mob pressure, just as many heretics did in the past. And I'm sure it's very common for artists to have a different perspective on their work when they are twice as old, marry, become fathers etc.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Greater men than Alan Moore have given into mob pressure historically. But it really doesn't matter what he thinks about a book he wrote 30 or 40 years ago. If many years later Shakespeare had said that Hamlet was a load of trash with nothing interesting to say about the human condition, it wouldn't make Hamlet any less significant as a classic work of literature. Alan Moore is also deeply hypocritical for blaming one of the DC executives for giving the green light to cripple Batgirl because Moore was the one who wrote it. And Moore also said TKJ was "too violent and sexual", despite wanting it to be more graphically sexual than was even allowed! His other stories are also full are violence and rape so he'd have to throw them under the bus by the same logic.
"There's no point in making it realistic" It's the most successful and acclaimed Joker story ever. That would be a pretty good point. Heroes can be maimed and killed too. Even if you're an Olympic athlete crimefighting badass you can still get ambushed and shot. TKJ is Joker's story (and to a lesser extent Batman's), not Barbara's. Male characters are also killed to motivate other characters, i.e., Robin in "A Death In The Family". TKJ was written as a one-shot Elseworlds comic. Moore didn't expect the crippling of Batgirl to have such far-reaching consequences, such as creating the first wheelchair-bound mainstream hero. The Joker is a monster. He's got no limits. That's my interpretation anyway, and a poplar one among those who write and play the character. Not every comic book has to be tailored to children, just as not every film has to be child friendly. There should be graphic novels for a more mature audience too. Not wanting to kick the crap out of the Joker doesn't mean that Batman doesn't kill him. People put down rabid dogs without any malice all the time. Frank Miller's Batman isn't a gung-ho killer, though he is a sadist, and a hero who will kill in extremis. And that's the way it should be: his rule was always unrealistic. Miller's Batman is a killer, Morrison's Batman is a killer and so is Moore's, though it's a last resort.
Marvel became much darker and grittier in the late Silver Age, particularly with the "Silver Surfer" comic book, that was aimed at an adult audience, but it only lasted eighteen issues for no more than two years. It was just too dark and gritty to be commercially successful. Some of the best comics were cancelled at the end of the Silver Age, for new titles that would be more saleable, but were not necessarily dark and gritty. "Conan" was one of the first comics of the Bronze Age, that was darker and grittier I think than most comics at the time, but in another two to three years, the format of the comic had changed, and only the "Conan" magazine continued to develop it as realistically harsh and sombre. The early Bronze Age comics dealt with drug issues in "Green Lantern" that were even more centralised in "Spider Man", but could as you say, still be read by younger or per-teen people. As the 1970s neared their centre however, the stories in the colour comics as well as the magazines, did however become darker and grittier. Writers like Steve Gerber wrote very disturbing and terrifying stories dealing with real and honest issues, and not just in the "Man Thing", look at "Howard the Duck" issue 3 in 1976, and later the same year in "Omega the Unknown", in an awesome issue that would probably have done justice to Harlan Ellison. They wouldn't last long, and were either cancelled or altered later in the 1970s. DC were also being purged during this period, with the broodingly Gothic "Swamp Thing" also being cancelled. It seems they were all too dark and gritty! I think that Alan Moore intended "The Killing Joke" to be outside the main "Batman" continuity. It was published as a graphic novel book so that it could only be found by adult readers. Brian Bolland is an excellent artist who has a graphically commercial style that doesn't distract from it's purpose as most comic artists also do to tell a story. It's, as you say though, probably uneven. Batman is probably a good superhero character, but he and his alter ego Bruce Wayne, don't necessarily come through here as good, human characters, unlike Spider Man who's inseparable from Peter Parker. The origin of the Joker however makes him a very human and tragic character. Barbara Gordon is just shown as herself here I think, perhaps Alan Moore is just trying to make her into an ordinary person. It probably does spoil her image however, as you seem to say, and what happens to her would probably have been better not occurring. She comes across as a more definite personality than Batman though.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Perhaps it wasn't as gritty as some later comic books, but it was surely something darker and deeper than anything that had been done in comics and Marvel before, and John Buscema was the perfect artist for it. It was great, but it seems that it was too great for it's own good.
It is the limitations imposed on sonnets, haiku, and other forms that sparks, challenges, and reveals the imagination of those who pursue those forms. Or so my dogs tell me.
I have finished The Prisoner of Zenda. I enjoyed the story, but the wordy prose annoyed me! I know, a total philistine am I. 😶🌫The sequel has got me wondering…. maybe even the prequel. Please pass this on to Roger.👍
Frank Miller maybe doesn't get superheroes, but Alan Moore *hates* them. I think that's the biggest difference between them. That, and Moore's not a fascist (that I know of).
OK. Here is the (or a) genuinely left-wing, that is to say SOCIALIST, take on DC's comics in general, though it segues onto them in passing, from a critique of the Nolan Batman movies. This is what a guy called Adam Haig, from the World Socialist Web Site, has to say. "What does one feel when watching Nolan? Altogether, it is an aesthetically one-sided and emotionally distorting encounter- condescending, cruel, misanthropic, ugly and unreal-in short, much like the feeling of Batman comic books in the 1980s by writers such as Frank Miller, Alan Moore, and John Wagner and Alan Grant." There you go! So much for all of DC'/Warner's right-wing drivel. 👎
Now why would ANYBODY want to discuss such a piece of nonsense as this?? Overwrought, unrealistic, anti-humanistic, simplistic, poorly-written rapey melodrama?? 😏 No wonder Alan Moore eventually repudiated it! 👎
The art is great but I think on the whole this comic doesn't hold up in the same way that Dark Knight Returns does. A lot of the decisions made in this book I really don't like. Especially what happens to Barbra in this comic, I like her as Oracle, and they do a lot of great stuff with her in the wheelchair BUT the implementation of it here....yuck. I think you can tell mature stories in the realm of comics, even Batman BUT you are totally correct that this is not a MATURE handling of this content or its limitations. For example I think Batman: Year One is absolutely perfect and is I think my favourite Batman comic. It writes it with some mature content but handles it in what always felt like an adult way. Although modern Frank Miller is uh NOT GOOD AT ALL. Although it seems we may disagree on Miller's Batman haha which is fair. I've heard that Moore considered this to be an Elseworlds story when he wrote it but still. OH GOD Identity Crisis...why would you bring up that horrible stupid story lol.
I LOVE this story! I used to hate it by how cynical the joker sounded but I learned to love to later on for him because it gives us reason on what make him do what he does and why is the ay he is. and how NORMAL he was before and how he has a vague recollection of what happened to him. This was as an origin for the joker up until recently (I HATE rebirth as much as New 52) because the joker past makes him 10x more interesting and not this random agent of chaos. it gives weight and gravity to his life and how "One bad day" changed him and Batman. you're right! this origin is perfect for the joker! you can't get any better than this! usually they only rework origins to see what works as good but THIS WAS GOOD! But Batgirlwas never raped bit he joker, Alan said so YEARS ago, he just wanted to humiliate her and then send her father over the edge by seeing his daughter in a crippled exposed state while he was on that torture ride. Nor do I think fans should assume the joker WOULD do that, because not every villain is crazy in the same ways. everyone has their things they do and for certain reasons. the joker would NEVER Rape anyone. LOVE LOVE LOOOOVE!!!
This story wasn't just the origin story for the Joker but also Oracle, the first truly disabled hero in comics. (Daredevil doesn't count because of his heightened senses). Comics needed an Oracle. She was a character that showed personal tragedy doesn't always have to hold you back. The fact that she was once an established hero prior to that tragedy made her success as Oracle even more inspiring and potent. While Moore didn't intend for this new direction in her character, this dark story was the impetus for 2 important lessons to comic readers... 1. Even heroes can face life alterating tragedies. 2. Tragedies and disabilities don't have to hold you back.
I loved the Oracle character. Like I said, her tragedy made her character even more inspiring. Because I loved that character so much, I tend to defend The Killing Joke's more more than I probably should.
Good point.
This is bollocks! 🙄
I think comic books had been trending towards dark and gritty material well before 1988's The Killing Joke. The Punisher had been around since 1974. The Death Of Gwen Stacy killed off an important side character that had been a fan favorite for a decade plus. Crisis on Infinite Earths killed off Barry Allen Flash and Kara Zor-El Supergirl, both of which were dead for almost 20 years. Then we have to mention Moore's other dark comic, Watchmen, which got heavy into dark themes. Readers ate this up, so one could say The Killing Joke was just following an established trend instead setting one.
Pretty much agree Michael. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Sweet innocence destroyed. It's the same problem I have with new Star Trek. It's about imagination, not violence or snarkiness.
If I remember correctly, it’s the events of this book that eventually turned Barbara into Oracle which I really liked. I think she was a better character in that role and possibly more effective. Still when she opened that door, her reflex should have been to take the gun away from Joker and feed him that goofy hat while taking selfies with his camera.
Thank you as always for another awesome Epic Comicbook Wednesday!
The whole story was written as a means of negating superheroines and female action heroes in particular. A female hero from the 1960s, such as Emma Peel, the high-kicking spy heroine from the BRITISH series The Avengers, could have disarmed the Joker and his leering sidekicks in a heartbeat.
Alan Moore has always struck me as a misogynist. That was my young-woman evaluation of him, and it hasn't changed. Comics like this one only encourage incels. Only they called them "male chauvinist pigs" in my day. The emphasis of the latter phrase wasn't however on young men. Comics are aimed at youth. That is what makes ones like this one so dangerous. 👎
The good thing I can say about the darkest part of the story, once DC decided what happened happened, Barbara Gordon eclipsed her old identity as Oracle, she was great. Bolland's art is the one thing I really like the most, I agree with you about the story and its poisonous legacy. I hope the preCrisis silver age & early bronze age adventures of Batman are collected sooner rather than later so I can enjoy simpler times with the Cavalier, Maxie Zeus, Crazy Quilt and the other buffoons running amock and threatening Gotham over rediculous minutia.
Oracle was a great evolution of Barbara Gordon's character. She was such an inspiration, but I don't know if the fall and rise would have been as impactful if it hadn't been an established hero like Bargirl.
@@timmeyer9191Why do people like such stupid soap-opera-y characters? 🤦♀️
Weren't comics always supposed to be ENTERTAINING, as the name suggests? 😏
Really I think that this descent into "gritty" and pretty dull and fascist melodrama, was one of the WORST moves that US comics, particularly DC, could ever have made, during the 1980s. And I'm not just saying that with hindsight.
Most of Japanese manga aren't like that. And they're all the better for it!
Wonderful stuff Michael! Great ep. Was laughing out loud at your DC jabs.
Excellent critique, thanks!
"Can one bad day drive a man insane?" I loved that question. This book really made you think on that. I know it gets a lot of grief because it treated what happened to Barbara Gordon in it as a prop, but it wasn't her story. If it was, they would have delved into it and Barb's side of things more. The Joker is a bad guy doing bad things, but I did like his joke at the end of the book. Thanks for the video, Michael.
The simple problem is that this should have been labeled an elseworlds title. This never should have become part of the main continuity.
That's what Moore has said! Only he failed to ensure it.
I believe Alan Moore tried to atone for this with his Tom Strong comics.
I agree with you completely that Superhero comics can work for adults without resorting to material that kids shouldn’t be reading. I know plenty of parents who are nervous about taking their kids into comic shops….sigh.
Another great video!
Good! And so they should be, post 1980s!! 😏😏😏
Not read The Killing Joke but excellent point about kids being able to read Batman. Especially since a great introduction to mature stories for kids could be a Batman comic that while dark isn’t too graphic.
THIS comic is most emphatically NOT for kids! 😏 And had I my way, then I would ban it from every library! 👎
As an Elseworlds, it's brilliant. Great writing. Great art. But its influence makes me wish it never existed.
I think The Death of Gwen Stacy, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Watchmen had already started the ball rolling on darker comics before The Killing Joke came along.
This is a good one, both your discussion here and the graphic novel; I'm always happy to hear more Moore talk. I had been thinking about making a video about this one. I had it in my spreadsheet a couple of years ago, but it kept getting pushed back for other things.
This was a really rough one. The Batgirl scene was horrific, and the Joker’s use of that to torture Commissioner Gordon was a very effective way of punching the reader in the gut. Where was the Comics Code Authority on this one? 😉 Definitely due for another reread on this.
Ha! The comics code wouldn’t touch this book!
Another great video!! Looking forward to books that time forgot video tomorrow!!!
I’ve always loved that cover.
It is a great cover.
Metoo
Why? It's vile! And when you KNOW what he's photographing, it's even viler! 👎
Honestly. That's like you saying you loved most the scene in a movie where Ted Bundy stands over one of his victims.. 😏
Very good analysis of the Killing Joke I like your take a lot glad to describe
Ah yes, the book that got me into comics for the late 80s and 90s.. I think I have a first edition! :) And yeah, you are right -- so very gritty. At the time it was shocking how gritty everything felt, but now it looks quaint. And that's a great point about the difference between Miller and Moore. It reminds me of the Spiderman comics I read in the 70s.... always misunderstood, always persecuted, but also always trying to help regardless.
Waiting for this TV Video on pins and needles. A great video. My wife, daughters and myself learn so much from you and your episodes. A big Thank You from Mesopotamia in the Republic of Iraq
When this came out I had little attachment to DC comics.
For whatever reason DC Comics unlike Marvel Comics were not in the magazine fundraisers of junior high. So I had mail subscriptions to a good amount of Marvel books. My DC reading was the post Crisis books that had been rebooted to a new #1 book that were easily found on store spinner racks. Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, and A Death in the Family were the 1,2,3 punch that made me a reader of Batman and kept me going out of my way to visit the comic book store.
It's kind of amazing the lasting effects of this one little book even today. The recent Joker title, previous to the current one, was pretty much a Gordon as a pawn by others and his own drive in pursuit of killing the Joker. DC has introduced it's collection of 'One Bad Day' stories trying to give various Batman rogues their own Killing Joke substantial moment. The recent Three Jokers had connections to this too.
My only attachment to Barbara Gordon was the 60's tv show so I, in a dark way, am thankful for this book giving me Oracle and Birds of Prey. John Ostrander, Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone gave me some of my favorite comics of all time because of the fall out of this book.
MKV! So this is where you've been.
I remember DC being great back when I was a kid. My favorites were Tales of the Unexpected and Weird War but I like Batman and Superman too. Another absolute favorite was the Legion of Super Heroes because of the character interactions but you don't hear much about them anymore
Weird War! I read that all the time.
@Michael K. Vaughan I have a bunch of them as well as the Unexpected
I enjoyed Jim Shooter's 2nd run on Legion. I think Manapul was doing the art at that time. Still have that run in my collection.
@Tim Meyer The first Legion story I read was the death of Ferro Lad at the local barbershop when I was 8 or 9. After that I had to get as many as I could. I still have that 2 part story
Just looked it up, I didn't realise Barbara stayed crippled and became the oracle. So yeah your right, that's pretty shit.
Got this signed by Brian Bolland. It makes sense to read Batman Damned right after this one by Azzarello and Bermejo. Not spoiling anything, but, yeah, do it!
I agree with a lot of what you say. I think comics have gotten a little TOO adult oriented in the modern day. When you go to pick up Teen Titans and it's listed as Teen+, it's like you've got a book made about teens that kids shouldn't be reading. Same with Batman. When Batman and Detective Comics are Teen+, you're alienating the people you're trying to sell to. All that being said, I will say a few things about this book that I think put Mr. Moore in a better light even if he wouldn't agree.
Batgirl had become a character kind of without a home. Whereas Robin had found success after wearing out his welcome with Batman, Batgirl was mostly a backup feature killing space in Detective Comics and Batman Family. Her stories tended to be of the variety of Batgirl moons over guy, fights villain, gets tied up and put in a death trap, escapes, beats bad guy. Wash, rinse, repeat. DC had tried to give her a little push around the time of Killing Joke, but it just wasn't taking. So, the door opened...
As to the actual assault...I truly do not mean to offend anyone by using this comparison. But I might, so I apologize in advance. On 9/11/2001, terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Towers. No one saw that coming. The typical terrorist taking over planes situation tended to be terrorists take over and hold plane and people for ransom demands. They went against their usual tactic and shocked the world. I feel like this is kind of what happens with Barbara. 1)Who would open their front door and expect to see the Joker standing there? 2) The Commissioner does not know his daughter is Batgirl. Part of her reflexive training has been to always to protect her identity. If she launches into a martial arts fight at the door, there goes her secret. Also, bullets flying all over the room could endanger her father. The swift thing would just be to throw down and fight. But she has been trained by Batman to be EVEN FASTER, so the next thought would be to protect others and play along until she could get away and switch to Batgirl. 3) Joker has a tendency to take people hostage and use them for bait. He HAD become more vicious by this point in the comics world, but he is still kind of predictable. It goes against his grain to just shoot someone right off of the bat. Barbara is taken by surprise with a new tactic and pays the price. It's almost as if if Joker had known she was Batgirl, he might not have shot her. But Barbara Gordon is just someone to make a point with to Jim Gordon.
The other thing that justifies this book somewhat is that it was sold in Comic Specialty shops and comic ads. Not on newstands or drug stores. Any shop owner worth their salt would have never sold this to a kid. I'm sure some did because it happens. But on average, it was marketed to adults. But you are right, the newstand books started getting far too dark after this. The one that stands out to me is the Death of Robin. That scene where Joker beats him with the crowbar and then the scene where Batman takes his burned body from the ashes is just too much for young eyes. I saw that one as a teen and thought it was too far. On the one hand, it signaled we were in a new world of comics. But it's also safe to say not everything about that more realistic world is good.
Finally, at the very least good things came out of the story. Barbara Gordon turns back up not long after as Oracle and if anything, this made her a more interesting character. She doesn't let being in a wheelchair stop her. She uses her detective and computer skills to become far more useful to the Bat Family than she might have been otherwise. She was also a role model for people with special needs. She was the poster character for moving past being "handicapped" to being someone with a health issue that was still a formidable individual. If anything, there has been quite a bit of flack since DC made her "normal" again in the New 52 era.
Regardless, I'm a Batgirl fan from way back and I enjoy seeing the character in her many iterations. It might have been an accident, but she became more popular after this graphic novel than before. The story is rough to read and that animated film adaptation might have made it sleazier. But, in the long run, I think this issue showed that one bad day WON'T break someone that refuses to be broken. And I'm not talking about Jim Gordon. This could have been the end of Barbara Gordon, but she comes back as a far more nuanced character than she was before this. And that was something good at least.
I was about to argue with you about Batgirl’s reaction to the Joker but then realized she isn’t real and there’s no way to know what her reactions would actually be! 😅 I still think that whole scene sucked terribly though I will admit there are many good things to be said about Oracle.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Yeah, it's just my opinion. Honestly, Killing Joke is not my favorite Batman book. I think you nailed it when you said DC editorial just considered Alan Moore their Golden Child and they didn't want to say "no" to anything he popped up with. His changes to Swamp Thing had brought new life to a floundering character and when they showed faith in the story by putting it out without the Comics Code, it worked out. I think what they didn't understand was that Swamp Thing was a horror character and you could play with him a little and it wouldn't hurt. Sales were terrible at the time, anyway. But messing with the status quo of one of your flagship characters...Maybe not the smartest move in the long run.
I always thought the crippling of Barbara Gordon was DC terrible response to Elektra’s death at Marvel.
The 1980s were grim and gritty in comics because they reflected the society in which they were created, and that society was set on its grim and gritty course ultimately by it leaders, Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK, with their business-driven free-market economic policies, minimal government involvement and disregard for the worker.
I agree Michael, there won't be a better origin for the Joker and it should have become canon.
In Moore's defence, I imagine that Barbara Gordon was so shocked to see the Joker at her door - in her civilian environment, in her non-hero identity as Barbara and not Batgirl, outside office hours as it were; but I do see your point. I think Batgirl just didn't have time to override Barbara's shock and take over.
Kids were not going to casually buy this book: firstly, it was direct market only so not available at newsstands; secondly, at $3.95 for the first three printings and $4.95 for subsequent printings, it was far costlier than a 75 cent regular comic and kids would see greater value in five regular books for $3.75 than one Batman comic for nearly $4.
I really recommend three follow-ons from The Killing Joke: the Barbara Gordon story from The Batman Chronicles #5 (1996), Booster Gold #5 (2008) and The Brave And The Bold #33 (2010). All add new perspectives to the source story and are very well done.
Thanks for another great video Michael.
I was looking forward to this, and it’s typically well presented and well argued. The Killing Joke was an important read for me when it came out because it reignited my interest in the comic form and what became known as graphic novels. Awesome video Mike.
Thanks!
If I’m not mistaken, Alan Moore has said he always intended this story to be an Elseworlds tale, and was surprised to see Barbara’s crippling incorporated into main DC continuity.
While I definitely agree it’s a horrific moment in the comic, one thing I don’t see mentioned often in relation to TKJ is that Barbara Gordon was far from a popular character at the time. (Unsurprising, really - DC certainly wasn’t going to take a popular character permanently off the board.) Other than quick cameos in Crisis, she’d last appeared as Batgirl in 1983, a full five years before this story came out, and was basically retired. (She’d had a few non-costumed appearances as Barbara Gordon since then.) That’s not to defend what was done to the character, I just find it interesting - were it not for Alan Moore crippling her and the Ostranders making her Oracle over in Suicide Squad, who knows… Barbara Gordon might well have faded into obscurity, rather than becoming Oracle and paving the way for the even better Batgirls we got after her!
☠️ “Love Like Blood” by The Killing Joke 🎶 #TheKillingJoke 🎵 🎹 🎸 #80sRock
I have a theory that perhaps the reason why Barb didn’t dodge the Joker’s gun is because she was in civilian mode and would have been more careful if she was in Batgirl gear, and I guess that happens is because since horrible things would rarely happen to her when she’s out as Barbara, her alertness when tame. Maybe…………
Killing Joke remains a great story but it is very stark and became one of the ultra influential works to reinvent comics in people’s minds.
I don’t think it’s one of the all time greats but I truly appreciate it like most Alan Moore stories. It plays with philosophy and what if scenarios and should be taken as the psychological treatise it is. It was a one-off. The single best element was the open ending left up to the reader’s interpretation.
I hated what this book did to Barbara’s character but came to realize it was never meant to be a canon tale-DC merely adapted it into the main continuity. Yet I do love her later reinvention as Oracle so it’s a trade off. Though it’s nice to hear other Babs fans express frustrations about Killing Joke still. I did enjoy some of the run where they finally undid her paralysis. (Especially since Bruce was magically healed at the end of Knightfall)
I need to get a physical copy for my collection but I’m not a fan of the modern recoloring on current editions.
It has been overused, over referenced, and adapted on various ways FAR too many times. The dtv animated film material developed to pad out the runtime was atrocious.
The editors then were taking risks but things weren’t meant to continue down this path forever. And of course if you want to talk about not properly using a character there is the 80’s DC run of The Shadow….😂
Oh man, that 80s Shadow! I blocked that from my memory!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 I heard all the fan gripes and though it can’t possibly be that bad…what the heck?!?!
Though admittedly it did hit its stride much more when the writers changed and the last half of the run added wickedly dark humor. That explains the ending with RoboShadow…🤣
I still have collected most of them because I’m a completist. The DC Doc Savage is supposed to be pretty divisive but I haven’t read those yet.
Sad and sick
Even though Batgirl is a very popular character now, if I remember correctly, her popularity was at an all-time low in the late 1980's.
As a single story you like it or hate it - whatever’s your take is a matter of taste and that’s fine. That being said, I’ve never ever got why people get so stuck up with continuity when it’s obvious no matter how much the creative team and editorial are “faithful” to it you are gonna have a different version of it. You can choose what continuity to consider and which to ignore - it’s fiction, not a periodical documentary of real life characters, dammit. Nobody gives two craps about 60’s rainbow Batman (except Grant Morrison) and few remember that the very first version of Batman actually killed criminals.
Jeez, and I was all set to be Rainbow Batman for this Halloween. Damn it!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Good! (Secretly I'm planing to be Rainbow Batman this Halloween) 😛
I heard some many good things about this book for so long that when I finally read it I was kind of disappointed, mainly by how short it was but also because I had no idea what happened at the end. It is a great story of Jokers though and I'll probably upgrade my deluxe HC to an Absolute soon.
Joker is my favorite villain. This comic in my opinion is a Masterpiece
Interesting 😊
This was my first Batman comic and my favourite ever since. Neither the Joker nor did I know that Barbara was batgirl, I have to think she was just a girl here.
The worst thing about this comic was the way in which Alan Moore knocked out a quick story for a Batman Annual, only to have Brian Bolland take so long over the artwork - while he was still working on it, Watchmen was published to huge critical acclaim - and DC upgraded this fairly early work by Moore to a standalone squarebound special, which was then judged as Moore's follow-up to Watchmen. I hadn't realised until I watched Steve's video that the story idea was actually Bolland's. I do remember Moore telling me at a London comic mart that he had a Batman Annual to knock out over the weekend, which shows how much thought he put into it. It was definitely a mistake, and I'm not surprised he's since disowned it.
I personally was neither torn or conflicted about this one, I despised it when I first read it and I despise it now. By the time I eventually got around to reading this garbage, I was pretty much over Moore's favorite plot device. I don't even remember when it all dawned on me, the killing joke, swamp thing, loxg, From Hell, V for Vendetta, MiracleMan, watchmen, Neonomicon, Providence. I know I've probably missed a few but the point is that every one of these Moore penned comic books contains at least one rape/sexual assault on a female character in it's pages. Some are incredibly violent and graphic and some are just nauseating even for people who enjoy violence. Arguably the greatest comic book writer in history should be more creative than this is all I'm saying. The entire Providence trilogy, the Saga of the Swamp Thing and MiracleMan are 3 of my favorite books to this day. I think Moore is brilliant, doesn't mean the wizard/grizzly Adams looking MFer couldn't use a lesson in humility every once in a while 🤷♂️
The run down carnival place ... the first place the Batman would check. I agree, Batgirl would have easily beaten the Joker in that scene. Good editing would resolve many of these issues. Great video as ever.
Ha! Yeah. And you would think at least one Gotham cop would think “ you know there is that run down abandoned Carnival…you don’t suppose…”
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Ha, he is always at those places, how many of them are there in Gotham ? Really enjoyed your video, must get out my copy of Killing Joke, Bolland is one of my favourites
I read this back in 2017 and thought it was an amazing book! I am, however, not as well-versed when it comes to the DC Comic Universe and was approaching this on the basis of its story and what I knew about the characters. Making Barbara Gordon a plot device rather than Batgirl was not a route worth taking, though. Making it a cop out to tell your story is never the right thing to do when you have limitations based on the layout of the Batman comics in general. I agree 110% that this is the most believable backstory for the Joker. He has brought up a lot of stories about himself, but he was thinking irrationally when he told them and the stories are inconsistent with one another. I can see where the details to this particular story could have really driven the Joker mad. It is interesting that his real name was not mentioned throughout the backstory either. The one thing I know about Batman is that he never used guns as part of his weaponry or attacks on villains and criminals, because his parents were killed from guns. I think that his actions toward the Joker demonstrated his ability to reason and that heroes can do more than beat up the bad guys in the text. I approached this as a standalone piece that stood separately from other Batman stories and as a standalone piece it did very well. As part of a series, though, a lot would need to be explained in order to convince those that are well versed Batman comic enthusiasts. Alan Moore had also just finished Watchmen, which is viewed as and has been ranked as the greatest graphic novel of all-time. Having Alan Moore writing Batman is like having Cher covering ABBA and giving her complete freedom, based on either legendary status or being at the height of their success. Thank you for sharing! -Josh
Hear, hear!
I re-read it recently and agree pretty much with what you say.
But on the re-read I finally "got" the ending. Another jolt to the DCU at the time...which I missed entirely.
I didn't see it on earlier readings.
But a panel by panel view of the last page made it fit into place.
I think there is some discussion on it on forums etc and I don't want to give spoilers to those that haven't read it. But I feel a bit of an eejit for missing it on earlier read throughs.
thanks
Alan Moore IS a great comic book writer. I know he doesn't do much these days, but he's still Alan Moore.
Alan Moore writes a lot but has pretty much given up on comics. He seems to mostly write prose fiction now.
Have you reviewed Batman Year One?
That’s a great book
That’s true, it is.
Does anyone think that batman killed Joker at the end. The light goes out in the last panel. Joker told the killing joke, and bats realized there was no redemption possible
I’ve heard that theory but it seems like nonsense. Gordon had just told him to capture Joker by the book for one thing. Also, the police were clearly just pulling up. Bad time for Batman to flip his moral code and kill somebody.
Anybody gonna tell him what's happening on the last pages?
I happen to have this on my shelf actually. Interesting take here. It is pretty telling that Alan Moore has basically disowned this work. I do think that comics should be free to tell dark stories, but you're very right that the "darkness" endemic in modern comics is basically just a curtain for bad writers to hide behind. If there's a point to it, then go for it, but if you're just trying to be edgy then don't bother. Otherwise you just get a lot of nasty, cringey stories with no real value.
All that's telling about it is that Alan Moore bowed to mob pressure, just as many heretics did in the past. And I'm sure it's very common for artists to have a different perspective on their work when they are twice as old, marry, become fathers etc.
Alan Moore is not a guy who would give in to mob pressure. He has been pretty clear about his feelings on this book and I see no reason to doubt him.
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Greater men than Alan Moore have given into mob pressure historically. But it really doesn't matter what he thinks about a book he wrote 30 or 40 years ago. If many years later Shakespeare had said that Hamlet was a load of trash with nothing interesting to say about the human condition, it wouldn't make Hamlet any less significant as a classic work of literature.
Alan Moore is also deeply hypocritical for blaming one of the DC executives for giving the green light to cripple Batgirl because Moore was the one who wrote it. And Moore also said TKJ was "too violent and sexual", despite wanting it to be more graphically sexual than was even allowed! His other stories are also full are violence and rape so he'd have to throw them under the bus by the same logic.
Are comics classified in the USA ? They are in Australia, same system as movies, so the comics have a sticker on it.
No. None of that here!
I probably need to reread this as it's been a long time. Always good to see British creators trashing American superheroes 😂
😫
"There's no point in making it realistic"
It's the most successful and acclaimed Joker story ever. That would be a pretty good point.
Heroes can be maimed and killed too. Even if you're an Olympic athlete crimefighting badass you can still get ambushed and shot.
TKJ is Joker's story (and to a lesser extent Batman's), not Barbara's. Male characters are also killed to motivate other characters, i.e., Robin in "A Death In The Family".
TKJ was written as a one-shot Elseworlds comic. Moore didn't expect the crippling of Batgirl to have such far-reaching consequences, such as creating the first wheelchair-bound mainstream hero.
The Joker is a monster. He's got no limits. That's my interpretation anyway, and a poplar one among those who write and play the character.
Not every comic book has to be tailored to children, just as not every film has to be child friendly. There should be graphic novels for a more mature audience too.
Not wanting to kick the crap out of the Joker doesn't mean that Batman doesn't kill him. People put down rabid dogs without any malice all the time.
Frank Miller's Batman isn't a gung-ho killer, though he is a sadist, and a hero who will kill in extremis. And that's the way it should be: his rule was always unrealistic. Miller's Batman is a killer, Morrison's Batman is a killer and so is Moore's, though it's a last resort.
I disagree with most of this but I appreciate your opinion.
Marvel became much darker and grittier in the late Silver Age, particularly with the "Silver Surfer" comic book, that was aimed at an adult audience, but it only lasted eighteen issues for no more than two years. It was just too dark and gritty to be commercially successful. Some of the best comics were cancelled at the end of the Silver Age, for new titles that would be more saleable, but were not necessarily dark and gritty. "Conan" was one of the first comics of the Bronze Age, that was darker and grittier I think than most comics at the time, but in another two to three years, the format of the comic had changed, and only the "Conan" magazine continued to develop it as realistically harsh and sombre.
The early Bronze Age comics dealt with drug issues in "Green Lantern" that were even more centralised in "Spider Man", but could as you say, still be read by younger or per-teen people. As the 1970s neared their centre however, the stories in the colour comics as well as the magazines, did however become darker and grittier. Writers like Steve Gerber wrote very disturbing and terrifying stories dealing with real and honest issues, and not just in the "Man Thing", look at "Howard the Duck" issue 3 in 1976, and later the same year in "Omega the Unknown", in an awesome issue that would probably have done justice to Harlan Ellison. They wouldn't last long, and were either cancelled or altered later in the 1970s. DC were also being purged during this period, with the broodingly Gothic "Swamp Thing" also being cancelled. It seems they were all too dark and gritty!
I think that Alan Moore intended "The Killing Joke" to be outside the main "Batman" continuity. It was published as a graphic novel book so that it could only be found by adult readers. Brian Bolland is an excellent artist who has a graphically commercial style that doesn't distract from it's purpose as most comic artists also do to tell a story. It's, as you say though, probably uneven. Batman is probably a good superhero character, but he and his alter ego Bruce Wayne, don't necessarily come through here as good, human characters, unlike Spider Man who's inseparable from Peter Parker. The origin of the Joker however makes him a very human and tragic character. Barbara Gordon is just shown as herself here I think, perhaps Alan Moore is just trying to make her into an ordinary person. It probably does spoil her image however, as you seem to say, and what happens to her would probably have been better not occurring. She comes across as a more definite personality than Batman though.
I never thought of that Silver Surfer run as particularly gritty, but it certainly was great! Thanks for the interesting comment!
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 Perhaps it wasn't as gritty as some later comic books, but it was surely something darker and deeper than anything that had been done in comics and Marvel before, and John Buscema was the perfect artist for it. It was great, but it seems that it was too great for it's own good.
Wasn't this a one shot though Michael? like the Jokers unofficial origin not being cannon, was Barbara Gordon even Batgirl in this alternate universe?
It is the limitations imposed on sonnets, haiku, and other forms that sparks, challenges, and reveals the imagination of those who pursue those forms. Or so my dogs tell me.
I have finished The Prisoner of Zenda. I enjoyed the story, but the wordy prose annoyed me! I know, a total philistine am I. 😶🌫The sequel has got me wondering…. maybe even the prequel. Please pass this on to Roger.👍
I rather liked the prose. I will pass your thoughts on to Roger! Thanks again for joining us!
Killing Joke is overrated trash. Alan Moore is massively overrated. The way he's been venerated is laughable and detrimental to comics as a whole.
And I'm glad you mentioned Identity Crisis as the vomitous outcome of Killing Joke. So on point!
Frank Miller maybe doesn't get superheroes, but Alan Moore *hates* them. I think that's the biggest difference between them. That, and Moore's not a fascist (that I know of).
If Frank Miller doesn't "get" superheroes with his body of work, no one does.
@@smoothcritical1 yep, if Frank Miller doesn’t get superheroes, although in his very own way, I don’t know anything in this world at all.
OK. Here is the (or a) genuinely left-wing, that is to say SOCIALIST, take on DC's comics in general, though it segues onto them in passing, from a critique of the Nolan Batman movies.
This is what a guy called Adam Haig, from the World Socialist Web Site, has to say.
"What does one feel when watching Nolan? Altogether, it is an aesthetically one-sided and emotionally distorting encounter- condescending, cruel, misanthropic, ugly and unreal-in short, much like the feeling of Batman comic books in the 1980s by writers such as Frank Miller, Alan Moore, and John Wagner and Alan Grant."
There you go! So much for all of DC'/Warner's right-wing drivel. 👎
Now why would ANYBODY want to discuss such a piece of nonsense as this?? Overwrought, unrealistic, anti-humanistic, simplistic, poorly-written rapey melodrama?? 😏
No wonder Alan Moore eventually repudiated it! 👎
The art is great but I think on the whole this comic doesn't hold up in the same way that Dark Knight Returns does. A lot of the decisions made in this book I really don't like. Especially what happens to Barbra in this comic, I like her as Oracle, and they do a lot of great stuff with her in the wheelchair BUT the implementation of it here....yuck.
I think you can tell mature stories in the realm of comics, even Batman BUT you are totally correct that this is not a MATURE handling of this content or its limitations.
For example I think Batman: Year One is absolutely perfect and is I think my favourite Batman comic. It writes it with some mature content but handles it in what always felt like an adult way. Although modern Frank Miller is uh NOT GOOD AT ALL. Although it seems we may disagree on Miller's Batman haha which is fair.
I've heard that Moore considered this to be an Elseworlds story when he wrote it but still.
OH GOD Identity Crisis...why would you bring up that horrible stupid story lol.
Batman: Year One is pretty great. No argument there. The Dark Knight Returns though…
@@michaelk.vaughan8617 yeah I have the feeling like my comment was very wrong about Dark Knight Returns LOL...I should probably re-read that
I LOVE this story! I used to hate it by how cynical the joker sounded but I learned to love to later on for him because it gives us reason on what make him do what he does and why is the ay he is. and how NORMAL he was before and how he has a vague recollection of what happened to him.
This was as an origin for the joker up until recently (I HATE rebirth as much as New 52) because the joker past makes him 10x more interesting and not this random agent of chaos. it gives weight and gravity to his life and how "One bad day" changed him and Batman.
you're right! this origin is perfect for the joker! you can't get any better than this!
usually they only rework origins to see what works as good but THIS WAS GOOD!
But Batgirlwas never raped bit he joker, Alan said so YEARS ago, he just wanted to humiliate her and then send her father over the edge by seeing his daughter in a crippled exposed state while he was on that torture ride.
Nor do I think fans should assume the joker WOULD do that, because not every villain is crazy in the same ways.
everyone has their things they do and for certain reasons. the joker would NEVER Rape anyone.
LOVE LOVE LOOOOVE!!!