she is not even allowed to accept mistakes or apologise ..any time she does something so stupid or agregious she notices she should apologise another caracters pull the "its not your fault you did nothing wrong" she is a Mari-sue
Personality wise, the show does give her relatable flaws and gosls, but it never calls out her blatantly bad behavior, like her stalking Adrien and the way she treated Kagami before they came proper friends. It either handwaves it or outright encourages it. Derision is a good example of this because it explains *why* she stalks Adrien, but the show never says it's a bad thing, just one her "quirks." And there's also the matter of her getting *way* more attention than the other characters, especially Chat Noir.
Heh heh gosls! Misspelling aside, I have to highly agree with you on this. A way to make Mari more human is by A. dialing back how famous she gets, and make her flaws called out B. have the opposite gender dislike her beyond girls.
@@fawzinazih6817 maybe the creators should have thought of that before naming the show "the miraculous tales of Ladybug AND Chat noir", seriously, the show was supposed to be about them both, they're a duo; equals - yet Thomas astruc is too big of a baby to think of anyone besides his precious virtual daughter (his own words) getting any attention, which is why he made the writers focus solely on Marinette despite the shows name and description making it out to be about a duo.
I used to think that, but looking back, she's in a bit of a strange situation. I've noticed that the narrative does make her apologize when she hurts her friends when she doesn't mean it. But I also noticed that she would sometimes apologize even when it's not her fault, and even though I honestly dislike her character, I do think it's unfair. However, I did notice something else. When it comes to her obsession and stalkerish behavior, it's like the show doesn't acknowledge them as flaws. In fact, the narrative seems to normalize and encourage such behavior. In other words, the show does indeed acknowledge certain flaws of Marinette's and is even willing to let her take the blame for something that isn't her fault. BUT, the show also doesn't let her face proper consequences for her stalkerish behavior, which is honestly really bad because they're letting young children think that this kind of behavior is acceptable.
I tend to call Marinette "the strangest mix of MarySue and Buttmonkey I've EVER seen." She gets away with a shitton of stuff she really shouldn't, the obvious writer favoritism, etc, while also being used as the show's main source of (pretty unfunny) humor.
I think a big part of what makes her a Mary-Sue is her hyper competency as a miraculous holder. You have users like Adrien and Kagame who have trained all their lives to fight in hand to hand and sword play but Marinette the “clumsy” art/fashion enthusiast who’s never fought a day in her life was able to jump in and show them up at every turn. And outside of one clip where we see her jogging I don’t think we’ve ever seen her actually train or practice. Yeah I know on the job training is effective but she got good almost immediately while they have Adrien continue to flounder around most of the time. It’s so weird that Asterick gives him this active background in fighting but makes him the worst fighter.
I agree with this so much. She came in as Ladybug the first time and showed her clumsy side, the next time she came she had mastery over the base skills at least. Meanwhile Chat Noir just rushes in and gets destroyed when his fencing background should have made him much more patient. (What happend to parry, Thrust, etc..) we only saw some of his fighting skills in a select few episodes, one of them being riposte where he fought Kagami. Let me not get into Kagami either. What Marinette did to her was messed up. Glad they are friends tho. But yeah on the hyper competency. Adrien was pretty much horrible with the ladybug miraculous on his first time and the 2nd time he was good but that's only because his love for Ladybug didn't cloud his judgment (kinda like she holds him back mhmm) and then we have Aliya with the Ladybug miraculous beating him up easily..
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 That could have been an interesting plot point to introduce with Plagg limiting his users power. Accept in the episodes where they have used each others Miraculous they have the same dynamic with Adrien struggling while Marinette using the black cat powers with ease. And after all they have been through at that point it wouldn’t make sense for plagg to only be limiting Adrien and not her.
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 It's pretty clear that all the Miraculous users gain enhanced strength, speed, agility, etc to the same degree. The only thing holding them back is personal experience e.g. Queen Bee vs. Mayura. Like they even show how more experience as a person benefits a Miraculous user. And somehow it's never done against Marinette to any relevant degree.
Marinette is not a complete Mary-Sue. She is just a badly written character is all. She is downright problematic and the worst thing is, she gets away with it, in the series and apparently in the fandom as well. She had her flaws but apparently the writer never actually used them to actually develop her character, hence the Mary-Sueness.
She's not a complete Mary-Sue, sure. In fact, she's 99% Sue and 1% Other (Being occasional underdog MC), but that still makes her a Sue nonetheless, and a Sue like that is always a badly written character.
Honestly, considering the way how the Agreste saga was written, Marinette almost felt like a self-insert Mary Sue character that has been artificially inserted into Adrien's story. Both Mari and Adrien deserved better writing...
it doesn't help that i saw accusations, that Thomas basically self inserted Marinette in the show as his daughter with someone he used to date CALLED SABINE. And how oddly weird is it that Marinette father's name Tom is strangely similar to Thomas. If it is true that would explain the favouritism.
@@PotatoInDisguise Yes, I´ve heard that Astruc once dated a French-Chinese woman, and has said that Marinette was based on a imaginary daughter that he never had with his ex-girlfriend. And Marinette´s father, Tom, is apparently the self-insertion of Thomas, and Sabine is his ex... So, while Mari is not really a direct self-insert, I think it to some degree explains the way she´s written.
Sorry for being immature and randomly mentioning this but, does Thomas want to be a baker that is yapping about how he'll protect his family with trust/anger issues?? 💀
@@emilycesaire1685 Haha, that´s definitely what Tom´s character is.😅I think he was just intended to be this funny dad who would do anything for his daughter, but seriously, he´s more immature than most of the under-age characters in the show. Not to mention given the gigantic differences in height and size, he and Sabine look like they are from different shows: Sabine is as small as Mari, which makes her look more like Tom´s other daughter than his wife or an adult. Like, Tom's hands alone are almost the size of her entire upper body.
I still remember when Santa said that Ladybug was the best behaved kid in the whole world and like... Maybe he really WAS just talking about Ladybug and not Marinette, but like... Really???
There is no best behaved kid on the world (I mean we ALL have been selfish, arrogant, immature, etc SOME point in our lives) that is, if you count a newborn child born 10 seconds ago
While Marinette is not a self-insert of Astruc, her father Tom is one. And for years I've heard rumours that her mother Sabine is modelled after an ex girlfriend Astruc had (who was chinese too), so in this sense, Marinette is like the fantasy daughter of himself and his ex.
@@Mapleleaf865 riiight, yes I think I heard that this information came from his tweets. But I have never seen the source, so I'll still regard this as a rumour. If he created these characters during that relationship I guess it's fine? But if he designed a fantasy child of him and his ex AFTER the break up I feel that would be a bit creepy 🥲...
I’d argue for the Season 4 finale when Marinette lost the Miraculouses it really wasn’t due to some flaw of hers, even if the show is trying to gaslight us into thinking that. She didn’t do anything wrong and she didn’t blindly trust Felix only because she’s in love with Adrien. If anything, she did what I would assume anyone else would’ve done in her situation. When she learned that everyone had the little froggy marks she (somehow) remembered that “Adrien” didn’t, so she went to ask for his help. He was quite literally the only option she had - not only did he miss the froggy mark, but he was someone Ladybug knew well enough to trust him and to expect that he would return his Miraculous after the mission - literally no different to how in prior episodes she’s chosen all of her classmates/friends to be heroes as well. It was quite literally not her fault that Adrien and Felix just so happened to switch places that day. How could she have known? And it also wasn’t a personal weakness of hers for failing to recognize Felix because absolutely no other character has been able to do that when he’s disguised as Adrien. She didn’t fail because of a character flaw, she failed due to circumstances out of her control. But because Marinette feels guilty for it, she blamed herself for everything when it was just not her fault at all and there was nothing else she could’ve done to prevent this.
As a person who loves the osp channel, i strongly agree with the mary sue criteria “If the character bends the story to their favor that it makes it unrealistic” and “they are the center of the universe “ which, yeah by that she is a mary sue and a terribly written character
This also reminds me of Wednesday. The show doesn’t make her apologize for manipulating everyone, treating them like garbage, putting them in danger, or breaking school rules. Yes, Enid called her out on her behavior and everyone was rightfully mad at her, but then the narrative bends the story to make everyone forgive Wednesday without her apologizing or suffering ANY consequences for her actions. Netflix has a habit of making the female protagonist not suffering any consequences for their actions. They did the same thing in Sierra Burgess is a Loser. Tim Burton’s (he dipped on Wednesday after directing four episodes) characters have paid the consequences for their actions. Jack Skellington being nuked by the army for giving creepy presents to kids, Barnabas Collins having his manor and company on fire for murdering innocents when he hated doing it, Sweeney Todd being killed by Toby because he was murdering people, and Emily not marrying Victor and getting turned to butterflies. Marinette not paying the consequences for her actions is proof that she’s the creator’s pet. She got people akumatized, she bullied Chloe because “cHlOe DiD iT fIrSt 🥺🥺”, she abused her powers, she blackmailed Kagami because she was with Adrien, she stalked Adrien, she stole his phone, and is a creep in general. But nooo, she gets rewarded instead because the protagonist can do no wrong apparently.
I don’t like the “they are the center of the universe” criteria as that’s a lot of shows Ash has saved the world so many times that you’d expect the world leaders to have his phone number whenever these rare legendary Pokémon that only get seen once a lifetime are attracted to him Those are just “the chosen ones” which Ash and Marinette both are Now other parts of their writing differentiate them more but…yeah main characters are going to be the most important in most kind of fantasy shows
@@pumpkinwarrior7138heres the thing though ash may be the chosen one but most of the time hes NOT at the center of the plot other people are too in the gen 3 movie's may and max were the ones freinds with legendarys and alot of times intire towns and other people are actually involved and ash and friends just get involved by accident and even then ash doesn't solve anything alone he also loses many battles and fails to save people like like latios lucario and whatnot most of the episodes in the anime don't even involve legendarys and are mostly normal ash isn't even actually the chosen one that was a mistranslation in the Japanese version of movie's 2000 the pprophecy talked about an exceptional trainer saving the world ash was just the nearest exceptional trainer.
@@pumpkinwarrior7138 i think the “crnter of the universe “ is more like , they bend the universe to their finger , i would nerd to re watch the video but it is a good watch
Chloe wasn't entirely a trash character, Astruc basically thinks she is trash, spoiled, rotten, and unforgivable. We the audience see her as a flawed and complex character since her mother isn't around and treats her father like a slave to her. But we all know that she has layers to what made her act that way. Chloe is not a terrible person, but Thomas doesn't give a damn, he thinks Chloe is a monster and Lila is a redeeming character.
No Chloe is definitely a terrible person up to this point BUT I can at least see why her upbringing made her a terrible person. I can agree about Astruc not knowing how to write though Lila is just as bad if not worse but she's somehow sympathetic and forgivable
@@zombiehunterzippy9823 Lila's a psychopath who is deadset on ruining Marinette's life all because she called her a liar once. Tell me exactly how that's more "redeemable" than a victim of literal child abuse?
@@Jellygirl313 It's not so I guess it's a good thing I never said it was. Also TBH I wouldn't say that Chloe was abused by her mother I think it's closer to neglect (which is still awful).
One of her main problems always comes down to her relationship with adrian. Every single time something bad happens it because of her obsession. Cat blanc caused she used her powers to get in his room, ephemeral cause she didn't tell luka to use second chance, heart hunter caused because of her jealousy picked kagami to help and was so distracted went to fu without detransforming, volpina and strike back for obvious reasons About the writing, another problem is that the writers can't give up the spotlight. Has lots of other shows where it has other characters getting the spotlight and the main character takes a supporting role or barely any role. Which is why the adrian focus ep in season 5 was my favorite. It let him shine while marinette actually took the back seat for once and didn't let her be the saving grace
I agree with this completely. The new other miraculous holders were never really developed and it felt like they were more tools for ladybug then actual characters with agency. Even cat noir/adrian didn’t have nearly enough screen time or just as much as Marinette even tho Adrian had a more interesting position in the show. The only characters I can think of that’s really escaped that was alya and was chloe (until the season 3 finally 💀💀) the writers definitely spend way more screen time on marionette then needed and it is at the detriment of the other characters
The thing is, when she makes mistakes (like accidentally exposing Fuu’s identity, or losing the box), no one blames her, instead they comfort her. But when Adrien makes a mistakes, both Ladybug and the show treats him as incompetent.
I wouldn’t call her backstory tragic at all…she was bullied…a lot of people were It’s pretty clear in the show that Adrien and Felix are the ones with the tragic backstories and the show’s plot is basically about the tragedy that’s fallen their family That’s contrasted with Marinette’s healthy and loving family
@@paylon2108 No, but the thing is the context. What this person means is that in the Mary Sue cases, usually they have a tragic backstory so the others characters feel sorry for her or things like that. A tragic backstory can be a good backstory if it's not a excuse to justify every action your character does (even if it's a bad action) or make everybody loves it just bc they have a bad time in the past. When a tragic backstory is used to show why the character is like that, why they do that and how they grow and can get better as a person and show how even if they have a bad life they can get better, it's a good backstory, when is use to make a villian have a motive, have their reasons a show a more human side of them, is a good backstory. But when is just tragic to have a excuse for the bad things they do like "yeah, they killed almost all people in the city but their have a bad life so it's okey!!!" or it's just a excuse for others characters to love them inmediatly and defend them with all their life and soul even if the character is a bad person o do things that should NOT be forgive, it's a bad backstory
Mary sue is a garbage term who doesn't mean nothing . If I use all the traits by definition Yuji Itadori would be the worst mary sue in fiction but people can't imagine this .
“Marionette is not a self insert of Astruct.” Marinette’s father is named “Thomas” and he admitted to Marinette being the imagined love child between him and his crush at the time, so...
My biggest issue with Marrinette is that, once she stood up to Chloe, she IMMEDIATELY started bullying her. The show is also just an absolute mess when it comes to morality.
@@Dred0n I heard he's going to direct Astro boy but at the same time he still involve in Miraculous as art supervisor and claimed that he had more control for season 6. So, don't put more hope for the further season as long as that buffoon still involve
She sure is cutting it close as of the awful S5 finale, my GOD. The show is called Miraculous Tales of Ladybug _AND_ Chat Noir, yet the show has been progressively insisting more and more that Ladybug and Marinette are the only ones that matter to the story, as if the writers didn't make the conscious decision to make Adrien/Chat Noir's entire *character* and *plotline* be tied to the main villain and the ramifications of that. Yet, what happens in S5? Adrien isn't allowed to learn any major revelations about Monarch or his dad. Instead, they're both basically _handed to Marinette_ because she's Ladybug. She never even investigates this on her own. Felix and Kagami have to come out of nowhere to hand her the answer while Adrien is literally written out of the resolution of HIS OWN FAMILY TRAGEDY just so Marinette can solve it on her own. And yeah, she doesn't really solve it, but she's still the only one out of our two deuteragonists present for it. And the major trait that makes Mary Sues annoying is that the story will bend in on itself to keep the Sue at the center. There was literally no reason why Adrien couldn't learn that his own father was Monarch. Even if you wanna ignore the whole Sentimonster plot line and have Adrien learn that later, there is *no reason* why Adrien, *the son of Monarch and the primary victim of the Agreste Family Tragedy* couldn't be there for the resolution. No, instead they're gonna push it off to S6 where Adrien can't even confront Gabe on his abuse.
I say she is. The intro talks about how she is an “ordinary girl” but the average teenager is not that popular, nor skilled at so many things. I remember that scene where Zoe meets all of Marinette’s friends on the barge and thinking isn’t that almost her whole class? That and how every episode she is treated like she is 100% right (except the finale) and doesn’t need to learn anything makes her very Mary Sue. It’s seldom you get a Mary Sue that meets all the qualifications. I think it counts since she meets most of them.
Even in the final the whole city of Paris literally cheers for her Even in the darkest moment of the show she's loved, cheered, and applauded even when she does something morally wrong
While I don't think Marinette is 100% a Mary-Sue, she definitely has a lot of the qualities of one. I think the real problem she suffers from is poor writing.
….honestly Zoe is a bigger Mary Sue than Marinette. I will die on this hill. Marinette has her Mary Sue moments but I think Zoe is the DEFINITION of a Mary Sue. She immediately befriends the main protag on her first episode. She lands a spot on the miraculous team the episode RIGHT AFTER her debut episode. (While everyone else had to wait for their respective miraculi for much longer) She has no problems using the bee miraculous (though that could be said for most of the temp heroes) She is immediately liked by everyone (except Chloe because of course) And is given a star role right off the back in the class project in Queen Banana when the role could have been played by anyone. She’s chosen by Plagg to wield the cat miraculous (when there were other choices (LUKA, KAGAMI, NINO (though I understand why Nino wasn’t picked)) All of her flaws were solved in her debut episode so she has little to no flaws. In fact the only flaw that I feel like she has is how incredibly mid of a character she is being despite ALL of this, the writers have done nothing compelling with her character. She’s just nice….and that’s it-
I feel like the only way to actually redeem her would have been to make Adrien straight up reject her and never get with her/reciprocate her feelings. But no, instead her four seasons of stalking are rewarded, and she gets the guy she stalked and harassed...Very dangerous message to send to kids, for me at least. And the worst part is that Adrien will never know she did all this.
Its so annoying how the writers think that PTSD can explain stalking. PTSD leads to isolation. ALSO, if she was traumatised how woukd she not get a reaction or at least a bit paranoid when near chloe or kim. I will actually bet money that they just pulled this out of their ass because of the hate.
The issue with her "one big flaw" is that it didnt make the 5th seasons encounters any more difficult, she never once had to improvise something because she didnt have a tertiary hero, and it directly led to Gabriel being more careless because he *thought* he was more powerful which led directly to him being defeated. If a "negative" actually turns out to be a positive with no real consequences, was it ever really a negative? Things that should have happened as a result of her losing the other miraculous but didnt: -Su Han immediately turning against her due to proving she was not capable after all -Gabriel becoming much more deadly due to having many more powers. Remember how Sentimonsters made old villains legitimately more difficult to defeat and some of them came down to hail marys? -Related, possibly Gabriel immediately winning due to how OP some of the Miraculous are. Obviously this one gets a pass because it cant happen, but still. Dont write and obvious win con for your villain and then give it to him if he cant be allowed to use it. -Marinette having times when she could win very easily if she had access to a certain Miraculous, and having to come up with a much more difficult plan because she doesn't. The fact that she avoids all the consequences of her actions *again* and only gets rewarded for it proves that shes a Sue.
Exactly, I don't understand things like in the first episode. Why just not letting Gabriel make tje right decision? Because is now nonsense why he wants the miraculous (I'm in episode 7 of seaon 5), but honestly that right there should've been the reset button of the entire thing, because people wore already sick of the Adrinette thing, and they decided to force it to happen instead of making a reset of the thing.
Compared to Chloe and Lila, Marinette will sink to their level if needed in their fued. Marinette has done creepy, mean, and criminally questionable actions in the show.
No, but like even at the end of season 4, she only makes that “mistake” because she’s being influenced by risk. It kinda just feels like the writers literally saying, “she literally NEVER does any wrong! The only way she can fail is if she’s literally being magically forced to!”. Kinda ruins that as a character flaw for me 🥲 like why couldn’t we just have her be impulsive and make a understandable mistake there
Now that Marinette not only has to hide the fact that she's Ladybug/Guardian, AND that Gabe was Monarch and that whole thing was a farce, maybe they can use that to make her more flawed, hiding things and being dishonest to Adrien, throwing a wrench in their new relationship. kinda like that one episode with Luka. Except preferably not in just one episode.
Marinette case of Mary Sue is even worse. She is rewarded even when she mess up, she cause the miraculous box being stolen the first time, and she is rewarded as being the guardian (even though she lost the bee miraculous previously). She lose all the miraculous, and all Paris chant her name to give her support, and Sun Han even apologize to her (even though her mistakes proved him right that she was not ready at all to be the guardian). Her crush with Adrien cause her to lose her and Chat noir miraculous and she now is the girlfriend of Adrien. And later she lose those miraculous AGAIN, and she is rewarded as the leader of the team and still being trusted as the guardian (even though she must be the worst guardian ever, (although not entirely her fault)). The worst part is that she still is praised as the best, even though Chat Noise have messed up less than her Also when the ladybug and cat miraculous were stolen the first time, she also had super speed, cause she witnessed the location of Hawkmoth, manage to go to her house, could prepare a disguise with a helmet and a fake lucky charm, go to Monarch, hide the fake lucky charm in the span of seconds. Or when she manages to replace a mirror in the portable bathroom, install microphones in order to revela Lila true identity
Oh she's absolutely a Mary-Sue. Her biggest "flaw" is that she's clumsy. Anyone who doesn't get along with her is evil beyond redemption, she's beloved by pretty much everyone else in the show. Only SHE can come up with solutions as Ladybug and Fu even declared her the best Ladybug of all time (exactly how many ladybugs has he seen in action anyway for him to determine that?). She's won the attention and admiration of big fashion designers in the industry, a internationally famous rocker commissioned HER to make his album cover, she's never wrong about anything ever and the slightest possibility that she might be, there are no real consequences or stakes. Pretty much every guy in her class has crushed on her at some point. The list goes on she is a badly written character. Don't even get me started on her absolutely DEMENTED stalking of Adrien.
It also seems to me that the writers (or whoever is responsible) want Miraculous to be the kind of show where the main character is a vehicle through wich the audience (children) are supposed to learn valuable life lessons. Except this does not work. The character that messes up and learns from their mistakes and the character that is never wrong and loved by everyone (except those irredeemable evil) can not be the same character. What exactly is the audience supposed to learn when, after your main character has learned something valuable through messing up, you turn around and go "actually she was always right and none of this was her fault in any way" and in many cases also reward her for it? Like, what am I or anyone else supposed to take away from that?
Also when she makes mistakes (like accidentally exposing Fuu’s identity, or losing the box), no one blames her, instead they comfort her. But when Adrien makes mistakes, both Ladybug and the show treats him as incompetent and untrustworthy.
What gets me angry is how she manages to date him, even though never having a full conversation or anything (making the whole adrienette thing badly developed) so basically she got a reward for it instead of a consequence (plus she only stopped cause she's already dating him)
@@Dumblilv huh that part does make sense though, Adrien's first friend was marrinette and he didn't understand her behaviour but gave her the benefit of doubt , he trust her probarbly because of that reason . And in season 4 or 5 I think he talks to her about his modeling career and it develops alot more. And uh not to mention the boy blushed so much in the other seasons and showed care even beffore that so when kagami says like you like her or something im like finally. Also Adrien says like the part in the museum was the moment he noticed which at first I was like WHY THAT , then after thinking I realised maybe he just say that as a confession. Idk I have been watching miraculous for a really long time and i think it did well with adrienette that part wasn't bad at all. I think that people r just being as blind as Adrien if you didn't notice Adrien's care for her👍
@@neomasmacaroon Tom said that chloe was a character that couldnt be redeemed. She was a full super hero but then they took the miraculous from her just to hammer in that she cant be redeemed even though she is just a school bully. However Gabriel, a man who has definitely killed many people was redeemed in 5 minuted and is now remembered as a hero by all of Paris.
I've said this on another Miraculous video, but I compare Marinette to Peter Parker quite a lot. The difference? Peter actually has struggles when he has to balance with Spider-man a lot. But Marinette had this happen to her at the end of season 4 and that's it (to my knowledge, I don't really watch the show myself anymore) So I'd say that in comparison to Peter, she is quite the Mary Sue. Just like you said, not fully, but mostly
Marinette does have problems balancing her life and we see them even in season 1 with her getting scolded for missing days but it doesn’t really affect anything She still can sneak out and fight
Lets be honest here marinette is definitely a mary sue. Her flaws seems to be more lke quirks if anything. I mean her reason to like adrien was just that umbrella scene. Thats not enough. She didnt get to know him much because how flustered she gets when shes around him. Heck her friends even try to help her with it instead of telling her that her stalking and knowing adriens schedule is creepy and not healthy. I know that they then explain why shes like this but that isnt much of excuse for her friends not telling its wrong plus this shows that kim isnt as a "nice guy" like he seems to be. I guess that losing the miraculous wasnt her fault but she had 2 tries to get them back or at least the most dangerous ones to minimize the danger a bit but she didnt. All her problems she seems she could fix so there is no one to repermend her since Su Han only appears once or twice, Alya trust marinette until lila's lies came out and chat noir/Adrien loves ladybug so much that he doesnt have the guts to tell her when shes wrong.
I feel like Marinette is close to becomming a Mary Sue, but isn't there yet. For seasons 1 to 4, I don't believe she's one. She doesn't have many flaws, but the writing didn't go out of their way to fix her flaws at the cost of other characters. In my opinion, that did change in season 5. Her 2 main flaws (being a stalker to Adrien and losing the Miraculous to Felix and Gabe) are being fixed in a very unsatisfying way: - For the stalking: Blaming Chloe and her bullying for her stalking behaviour instead of her acknowledging it herself and accepting that it's not ok to behave like that is a very poor writing decision - For the Miraculous: Even tough she felt guilty in the beginning of the season and tried to go after Felix in episode 2, her heroing quickly reverted to beating the villain of the week, instead of trying to recover the Miraculous. In the end, she alone got told the Agreste backstory out of nowhere and went 1 on 1 with Gabe, coming out as the winner, with Cat Noir being completely left in the dark of what happened (at least, that's what I understood out of the ending scene in the finale). The writing did a very poor job of making Cat Noir an equal partner to Ladybug and helping her getting the Miraculous back, fixing the issue that Marinette/Ladybug had. At the end of season 5, everybody has their own Miraculous now, so Cat Noir now is truly exactly the same as every other superhero. I feel like that's a very poor fix for the conflict of season 4. I feel like these 2 decisions in the writing puts her in danger of becomming a Mary Sue, but to to the other 4 seasons, she isn't there yet. We'll have to see whenever season 6 releases, if this trend continues or not
I feel like for a big part of the show she never has *actual* consequences. She just feels a little guilty about what she did, and the show plays it off like whatever bad thing she did, and her being sad about doing it are equal
@@NearsightedNarhwalit definitely depends on the action Feeling bad about how she treated kagami and apologizing is appropriate Whatever happened in derision…I don’t know man
Marinettes biggest flaw is that she is a people pleaser and incredibly impulsive. Like she takes on too much because she can’t say no which gets her in situations like when she had to babysit and be at an interview at the same time. She makes stupid impulsive decisions that she later has to fix. And she lacks good communication skills with chat noir pushing him away instead of talking to him and explaining why she’s afraid to rely on him. All these flaws do cause problems for her the problem is that all her problems are almost always fixed within the episode or are never really placing the blame on her even when it should. She has some interesting flaws and stuff but they’re never fully explored.
Marionette is a character who has a lots of missed potential she could’ve been an intresting character had they given her flaws and had consequences for her mistakes and creepy stalking behaviour. Like many things in miraculous she suffers from bad writing
she didn't suffer a consequence tho. she lost all the miraculous to the most infamous terrorist in paris. and what did she get? still everyone's support.@@eleonorepb4565
@@eleonorepb4565technically, not her fault, taking a logical standpoint adrian was the best choice, and how would marionette know that it’s actually the senti-clone of the character and not the actual character?
The moment I say the title I clicked. Happy Thanksgiving Smarty and truly thanks for this Miraculous video. (As usual I do highly enjoy when you create them) She is the definition of a Mari-Sue. Yes I spelled it that way on purpose. No, I don't believe it was an accident of her writing at all. Since season 1 to the end on season 5 and waiting on season 6 that hasn't changed. Miraculous tries to state balance/equality between characters when it's all about just one girl being in control and all the guy heroes ESPECIALLY HER SUPPOSED PARTNER SECOND PROTAGONIST CATTASTIC KITTY CAT NOIR just being her yes men. As Shadybug yelled at her before basically turning into her at the end. "I don't have your nice little life. No amazing BFF, no awesome girlfriends to inspire me everyday, let alone a calm/gentle mom or a boyfriend who doesn't think I'm a total loser." So yes, completely and undeniably Marinette Dupain-Cheng is a horrible and true definition example of Mary-Sue, that won't ever change. Everybody worships her in both her persons. Everyone have a blessed Thursday November 23, 2023 at 8:25AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
Chat Noir didn't even get any special upgrades between seasons 1-5. Hell he had to quit just so they would remember that "oh yes Chat Noir is human too and deserves to know everything from the power ups to master Fu's history". He's pretty much the same power wise, he was actually useful again in season 5 which was good and too short-lived. What irks me the most is that damn kuro neko episode. Adrien is sad that he's left out, that he's no longer really needed even for enemies he and Ladybug alone easily took care of. Ladybug doesn't even care about his feelings all that much until she sees that he quit again. Now they got a chance to talk at the end. Great now he can finally tell her.. that he's in love with her and can't be without her? What!? All the build up where the story shows us that he feels inadequate and useless. Not part of the team anymore... only for the reason to be his love for Ladybug.. the best Chat Noir is when he's not in love with her honestly, which makes me wish he actually fell for Kagami completely (they make sense together)
It was definitely done on purpose. The whole discourse on twitter about chat noir being a better than ladybug started before s3 got released. Pretty much after s3 chat noirs personality was completely assassinated, he rarely had any screen time. His witty, flirty personality from s1-2 was gone. Adrien became a puppet for marinette’s dumb decisions
1:20 well actually... funny thing in a tweet Thomas said that Marinette was his fictional child with a ex girlfriend who was chinese, and that's why Marinette father is called Tom, even worse in original concept, marinette parents didn't own a bakery, sabine was a lawyer and tom was a cartoonist, so there you have it
tbh far in the s3 days it was kinda obvious MArinette had her flaws, and in s4, it's shown that she's grown from them, little by litter, but she did try her best Then in s5 she is suddenly the Most Perfect Girl on Earth, and that there is nothing she could ever do wrong. Why? Because apparently her stalking is justified because - 1. She did it out of love 2. A 'flashback' that was never acknowledged in the earlier episodes show that she resorted to stalking because Kim was actually a mean person along with being a friend to Chloe, so the next time she fell in love with someone, she was obligated to stalk them, even if Adrien NOT being mean towards Marinette is what made her fall for him in the first place 3. Lila does WORSE stalking of her own which is NOT out of love and some other creepy shit to compare with Marinette's 'innocent' stalking. Which was revealed in s5 btw The direction Miraculous Ladybug is going right now kinda reminds me of fucking Shield Hero. Our main character is an optimistic ray of sunshine completely broken by the Evil Older Princess who is responsible for pretty much any bad thing that happens in the series, despite other factors contributing to her 'evilness'. Because of the horrible past of people who suffered her, the Mean Princess is finally brought to justice...several times...only for her to escape otherwise. Spoilers downward Then our Evil Princess has a fucking abusive mom (yes I DID say abusive...and am quite surprised at the lack of calling out fucking MIREILLA or whatever her name is over her daughter), a dad who spoiled her until he said "fuck it" and a younger sister whom they replaced her with. And then, there's this fucking ex of hers who is pretty much the OTHER Mary Sue of the series (after our protag of course) and is pretty much a lot more 'eviller' than the character you are supposed to direct your vitriol to Meanwhile, our MC barely gets their flaws addressed, and at the end, they are left fucking blameless. Literally everyone who does not stand with them is now their fucking cheerleader (this is why takt is my favorite character despite never having read the rotsh ln itse-) Also the fact that MArinette is supposedly awfully strong in both, physical and mental specs, as well as her getting a flatout 100% despite us never really seeing her study awfully hard, and her superhero responsibility makes me feel...awfully jealous. Like maybe acing a test is a piece of cake to the target audience if they put their minds to it, but as someone studying the easiest of tenth grade courses, I am in literal hell. Studying is one thing, acing a goddamn test is completely different
I mean people don’t call out her mom that isn’t around because a lot of people have been neglected but that doesn’t mean they’ll side with mr. Evil, child puncher
Just a little add on about mary sues, they can actually have flaws, its a mary sue however when the flaws are treated as not actual flaws and glossed over. Like for example if Bojack horsemans flaws where never addressed and he was always portrayed as the victim and he would always get his way in a ''he was the victim, he was right'' kind of way he would be a mary sue even if he had the same flaws he does originally
Geez, Gabe seems more like a main character than Marinette. Dude has to train for his powers a lot of the time, and he still gets his ass handed to him. 😂
To me Mary-Sue just means a character who makes the narrative bend to her will. Everyone who loves her is rewarded, everyone who hates/dislikes her is punished. She has "flaws" but they don't hold weight unless they directly concern her heroes journey to greatness. She's just a boring, yet frustrating character to watch.
Honestly, I'm glad to hear it, because I usually don't interact with other fans, especially in the romance or horror genre. I love Kagami, but she is a bit of a miss for me.
@@crossnasch8502 It's fine. Not everyone has the same opinion on a character. All you can do is respect it. I can understand why you'd feel that way. ☺️
Making a character clumsy, but never when it would actually inconvenience her, is a common tactic of writers who are just self-aware enough to realize that they're writing a Mary Sue but don't know how to properly fix the problem.
This maybe off topic but I did have this one idea that the creator of the show can do. Which is make a spin-off version of the show call Miraculous What If. The series can be about what if scenarios that could happen if the chance shows itself.
It was obvious in the first season. That's why I dropped it. The series had a lot of potential, but fell very flat in its execution. I honestly could not understand the hype that went on so long. Though I did try to understand it.
Matter of fact, she doesn't need to have ALL the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be classified as one, she just needs to have the majority of them for the classification to count ; and i think she qualifies a lot. There is clear favoritism from Thomas Astrucc towards her, and i think the genre and target audiences (as well as the fake Feminism of the creator) are just excuses to raise Marinette above the others. Adrienne, Gabriel, Nathaliè, Chloè, Lila Rossi, Kagami, Felix...heck i could keep going...are ALL more interesting and complex than Marinette that just breezes through life and all issues she comes across. A problem the main character can easily solve or walk away from, is also a conflict that the audience can walk away from beceause there are NO stakes involved! Marinette is almost a full blown Mary Sue at worst, and a weak protagonist at best.
One of the biggest problems is that Hawk Moth can't win or the show is basically "over". Should HM actually succeed even once, meaning acquiring the ladybug and black cat miraculous, that's it. They should have made his goals more nebulous, like he has to collect some type of energy or the pieces of some magical maguffin. That way, HM can have the occasional win without it meaning absolute victory for him. There's also the issue that he's been the main antagonist for far too long.
The shows 2 main plots: The Evil Butterfly Man and The 2-person Lovesquare had been so dragged out and got little to no actual development, that I had gotten bored and tired of waiting for anything meaningful (or consistent) to happen that I gave up watching the show halfway through S5. I still read the occasional fancomic/fic though.
Is Marinette a Mary Sue? Without even clicking on the video: YES. But I've heard from Cyrus the Great that there's nothing wrong with making a Mary Sue if they're meant to be comedic- but Mari isn't comedic in every aspect.
I heard something about the final of the season 5. It was intended from the start to be a reversal of the story of the knight fighting a dragon to defeat the princess. Ladybug is the knight Monarch the Dragon And Adrien the Dragon trap from the dragon.
I would say she is, but she also isn’t. In terms of overcoming conflicts or finding out solutions or beating the villains, she most definitely is. She somehow has more plot armor than Batman himself (and I say that as someone who loves Batman). Seriously, why is Cat Noir even here if Ladybug’s powers literally does everything to solve the problem. He’s power is rendered useless if Ladybug is strong enough to the object herself. And as for the Agreste Arc, she barely has any connection to what is going on yet she’s the one who solves everything while the son of the villain has no clue what even happened. But in terms of character traits and stuff like that, she isn’t really, but she is not far from falling into that category. She has goals and qualities that anyone could relate to, but her big character flaws (her creepy and stalkerish behavior towards Adrien), are not really treated as flaws, in fact they’re brushed off as a joke most of the time, and that is not a good thing. So, to quote Mephiles the Dark: “The answer is yes and no.” At least in my opinion, anyway.
list of Marinette's pros n cons (off the top of my head) Marinette's talents: [13] - fashion prodigy - gaming prodigy - leadership role - time n work management - class rep - popular - always learns from her mistakes - quick thinker - guardian of the miraculous - holder of the ladybug miraculous - can use the most miraculous at the same time compared to everyone else - considered attractive (she pulls) - plot armor n always wins Marinette's flaws: [5] - overthinking - stresses n panics easily - clumsy (if that counts) - emotions cloud her judgement n thinking - feels weighed/stressed from responsibility Bonus -> Marinette's b1tches (who she pulled): [6] - Luka - Adrien - Zoe - Nino - Nathaniel - that one guy from episode 'Copycat' (as Ladybug) My opinion: I agree w the video, she's mostly a Mary sue, but not too much of it. Although she does have a ton of skills/talents that outnumber her flaws, the cons are still heavy weights that can affect her and the huge responsibility she carries. Being a Mary sue is pretty common for main characters anyway especially when they have heavy plot armor.
gotta be honest, I would love to have seen the show be from the perspective of gabe, portraying him as a good guy (Ik, he isn't, but let's just imagine) he lost his wife because of his desire to have a son, he hates himself for making that choice and not just letting things happen naturally, (not being able to have kids) and he silently resents his son because if Adrien was never born Emily would still be alive. him and his son's relationship is damaged past repair, the love of his life is gone, and he is all alone. He goes down a dark path to do anything he can to get his wife back, as he believes that will fix everything. when he finally starts to have hope that he can have a family again he is stopped over and over again by a child who he believes is undeserving of the boundless powers she has been given and could never understand what he is going through because she has never felt hardship in her entire life. that same child is also driving his son further and further away from him. Gabe believes that there is nothing this girl wouldn't do to ruin his life and make sure that he never gets his family back.
I feel something that defines a Mary Sue is not only if they’re objectively perfect, but also if they’re portrayed as such even if they aren’t and even if the author does give them flaws if they’re portrayed as good qualities they are still Mary Sues and Gary Stus.
She is and the most agreegious kind ever.... Its the imaginary child of a relationship Thomas Austtruc had He made tom as his self insert and Sabine was his ex girlfriend.... Marinette is his Daughter he never had And is really creepy he made her a stalker mary sue
One of the biggest points of an authors development is intentionally putting characters through a breaking experience, whether is be traumatic physically or emotionally, it has a lasting effect on a character of theirs that is detrimental the the story’s plot. Once at least one of your stories has one, it helps you realize all characters can’t be perfect, and something wrong needs to happen to make a story interesting. Whether it’s be a disaster or a betrayal that has ongoing pressure on the character, they can’t be perfect in at least most of aspects. Sure marinette has some trauma but it only really developes as a result of plot points that should’ve been traumatic from the get go. To put it shortly, writers are fictional masochists who need to indulge in the angsty side of stories to build a good plot.
For reason it will can be intresting if she got some mental illness can't handle with that became unable to comunicate properly she had to gave up and give Adrien the role of guardian for some time (later he'll give it back) and he should be leader of the team we will see more of him and maybe Gabriel could starts thinking abt thr truth then Alya will become more Adrien's friend bcs of Mari problems (we see she often wants to be alone) or Alya as manipulative person (she'll help Lila) bcs of Mari being in center makes Kagami think that Mari rly should be bad friend what causes more trouble or Mari uses ring so Monarch could unmask Mari and Alya could know both Adrien and Maris secret and bcs of that she couldn't keep secret let's Nino knows who will have less trust to Adrien so he will give a guard to his father and cause issues for Mari who starts thinking Adrien is Chat and this everything will give them more personality I have much more ideas
In my opinion, Marinette is more of a poorly written good guy. Even at one point if she was a mary-sue, I feel like its not the case with all the trauma, heartbreak and growth she had during season 3, 4 and 5. Not to mention how the movie portrayed her, The writing just sucks in the show.
The timetravel thing was the dumpest scene with Gabriel. There was absolute no reason, to not place the stick in the past and than go to Ladybug. All he had to do was, to open his hand. He didnt even needed to be fast. I dont remember it correctly, but i think he even knowed, that he was able to turn back time. Even if Ladybug had attacked his past self, could he simply watch the window, turn the time of the window back and than showed up to the right moment. And even, if he doesnt knowed this option, was there again the point, that he only needed to place his stick. But hey, no matter how many L he obtained in the show. At last was he truly the one, who won at the end.^^
GOOD VIDEO, MARINETTE IS A FUCKING MARI SUE, all the characters become her friends or fall in love with her as soon as they meet her All the characters, even those who are not her friends, are willing to help her in her romantic melodrama. She is the best carrier and guardian without making an effort because Marinette ''she is so unique and better than everyone'', even giving lessons to adults and the only ones who don't constantly praise her are labeled as unredeemed villains like CHLOE.
Depends on which one you're talking about. Movie Marinette iis obviously not as she's shown to be clumsy, shy awkward and has actual flaws, while Show Marinette is 100% a Mary Sue.
Look, daiko only rarely loses, because losing would mean death XD His biggest loss, however, wasn’t a fight he couldn’t win. It was a friend he couldn’t save. Literally, Tousens head exploded on him.
I'm still stuck on how Marinette had a crush on Kim prior to the show beginning before Adrien came into the picture. I feel like there's more to her than what I thought.
Reminder that Mary Sues can have flaws, but these flaws can be used to further give the Mary Sue further attention by making them look pitiful, turning them into a Sympathy Sue. However, these attempts end up being hollow as these flaws or obstacles barely affect the narrative and is only there for cheap drama (in Mari's chase, the whole not believing her over Lila situation). As for Marinette, I think she's a bit of both, she's a Mary Sue in some aspects and a Sympathy Sue in others. However, she's also not fully a sue since there are some interesting bits of her character. I think Mari is bordering on being a sue.
I have seen Reader & (insert character or fandom here) fanfics better than MLB. Where the "reader" or self insert has depth, flaws, and grows as a character. For example, I've read an amazing Fem Reader x Bakugou story called "The Reaper" on Archive of Our Own (AO3 is the acronym I believe). Hell, the fanfiction for Miraculous alone is better. They make Mari a more likeable character by taking away her stalker behavior. Like as a teen girl myself, yeah some of us do like to "stalk" our crushes, especially celebrities. But we only do online stalking. We wouldn't dare to actually sneak into the guy's house 😭
The funniest review I've watched on UA-cam! Sure this is Disney we're talking about, but neither corporate or creative. This is not Disney the animation studio. This is not Disney the company. This... is Disney the distributor of superhero cartoons that are set in France.
I’m surprised that people actually like this show it’s way too childish for me personally but the aesthetics were always cool to me. I was also always bored with the main character so I stopped at like episode 10
I wouldn't say she's completely a mary sue as she does flaws in the show. It just the bad writing of her character and favouritism as she gets treated as a parent's favourite daughter while Adrian is in the shadows alot.
gabriel had the power of time and space and easily lost to technically 1 teenager becausecat noir was preety much a side character in his own show thhat is some BS plot armour right their
At 12:24 I agree with that she isn’t a full on Mary sue but I think certain characters shouldn’t have forgiven her like Luka,Kagami hell I dare say juleka the should have distanced themselves from her and marinette should have reflected on what she did and put herself in their shoes have her realize her actions gravely made them distrust her and she has to earn their trust back while Luka it’s kinda obvious about that since they were ex and being friends with an ex can be pretty difficult but I also believe that’s it mainly how other characters react to her Luka and kagami have every right to be upset or dare I say hate her because of the things she pulled even if her heart in the right place that doesn’t excuse her crossing some serious boundaries with them
I had an idea I actually liked, so for some reason they didn't allow Adrien to face his villain father.. In the finale of this season or next, when the fight Lila, it should be only Adrien fighting her. Since she despises Mari it's obviously she would try and get rid of her. And they let her do it, just put Mari in a position where she can't fight and let Chat face Lila alone. And Lila being Lila she would spill the truth about hawkmoth/Gabe. That has so much potential!!
@@Aydan2108 I mean she's the main character she would of also had to be involved, but Hawkmoth was literally his father... The writers should of never thought forcing him out of the finale fight, just so Mary Sue can be "tough need no man hero". I'm just saying the forced him to the side at one of the biggest moments for him, imagine the conflict afterwards!
@blazethedragonmiraculousus4995 marry sue?, so Adrian is not the super nice guy who have a super rich Father and is so famous and loved by everyone, it seems that you keep forgetting that ladybug is THE main character not Cat noir.
@@Aydan2108 Lets see Adrien gets super jealous, so hes flawed and that jealousy always has consequences. Marinette is a stalker and possesive, but that'd never brought up and its treated as if its a cute quality.. And the show is supposed to have to main protagonists, Ladybug AND Chat Noir. The show is trying to force Ladybug to be perfect, while they make Chat Noir a barely relevant side charecter. Chat Noir is almost as bad as Ladybug, but he hus flaws have more consequences. Even in the video Marinette is still a Mary Sue of sorts, just not as bad as she was in the beginning.
@blazethedragonmiraculousus4995 wdym by possessive?, and she WAS a stalker, ladybug is THE main character, cat noir is her sidekick, he is basically a main side character, Marinette also have flaws and did have consequences for them in s4.
I dunno… I always saw Marinette as someone who is Neurodivergent coded, ADHD specifically. It would explain a lot of her quirks and behaviors, though I highly doubt it was intentional. I have ADHD and seeing how Marinette behaves in certain situations, regarding relationships and her overall mindset, just feels way too relatable.
As someone with ADHD, I have never felt like she has it. I can understand why people might want to make the argument that she is. She has an exuberant energy that leans into impulsiveness, and her train of thought seems hyperactive (intense, rapidfire, and can quickly spiral). However, for me, it never really meaningfully portrays the downsides that offset that energy and the disorganization in her thoughts. If they intended to imply she's ADHD then, to me, it feels like they cherrypicked a few of the traits of ADHD that are considered "quirky" or "super powered" but included none of the flaws of the disorder that makes it a disorder.
@@Gabry4777stalking isn't at all part of ADHD and that was never mentioned here. As someone with ADHD (medically diagnosed), as much as I downright HATE Marinette, I agree with this person. Not every single thing Marinette does is an ADHD thing. But things like getting distracted, forgetfulness, clumsiness, hyperfixations, these are all definitely ADHD symptoms. ADHD is different for every single person who has it, too.
I agree. Not the stalking but the almost obsessive crush is an ADHD experience too. I can't really explain but most people with adhd (including myself) that ive met really fall HARD for people and they sort of struggle to handle it, especially as teens. But again, dont stalk the guy you like please😭
Marinette is totally Ms. Perfect her baker shops, perfect kiss for boyfriend 😒 friends half crazy 🫢 Marinette in name she Puppet Master, Marinette wants she rich, thankful she'll NOT Teacher pet 🫢
She may not be 100% Mary Sue, but she has ONE crazy plot armor.
that the thing that does it for me
The plot armor that’s disguised as pure luck 😭
@@NarinDeliah could you even call it a disguise at that point?
@@greenstarlover1 frr
she is not even allowed to accept mistakes or apologise ..any time she does something so stupid or agregious she notices she should apologise another caracters pull the "its not your fault you did nothing wrong"
she is a Mari-sue
Personality wise, the show does give her relatable flaws and gosls, but it never calls out her blatantly bad behavior, like her stalking Adrien and the way she treated Kagami before they came proper friends. It either handwaves it or outright encourages it. Derision is a good example of this because it explains *why* she stalks Adrien, but the show never says it's a bad thing, just one her "quirks." And there's also the matter of her getting *way* more attention than the other characters, especially Chat Noir.
I agree with everything except the last one, since I'm not against Marinette hosting the show
Heh heh gosls! Misspelling aside, I have to highly agree with you on this. A way to make Mari more human is by A. dialing back how famous she gets, and make her flaws called out B. have the opposite gender dislike her beyond girls.
cat noir is a side character, thought we all knew this, not because of s4 but the show was is and will always be known for ladybug
@@fawzinazih6817 maybe the creators should have thought of that before naming the show "the miraculous tales of Ladybug AND Chat noir", seriously, the show was supposed to be about them both, they're a duo; equals - yet Thomas astruc is too big of a baby to think of anyone besides his precious virtual daughter (his own words) getting any attention, which is why he made the writers focus solely on Marinette despite the shows name and description making it out to be about a duo.
@@fawzinazih6817Then why name the show Tales of ladybug and Chat nori?
I used to think that, but looking back, she's in a bit of a strange situation.
I've noticed that the narrative does make her apologize when she hurts her friends when she doesn't mean it. But I also noticed that she would sometimes apologize even when it's not her fault, and even though I honestly dislike her character, I do think it's unfair.
However, I did notice something else. When it comes to her obsession and stalkerish behavior, it's like the show doesn't acknowledge them as flaws. In fact, the narrative seems to normalize and encourage such behavior.
In other words, the show does indeed acknowledge certain flaws of Marinette's and is even willing to let her take the blame for something that isn't her fault. BUT, the show also doesn't let her face proper consequences for her stalkerish behavior, which is honestly really bad because they're letting young children think that this kind of behavior is acceptable.
EXACTLY!!! It's like the writers are trying to have their cake and eat it too! 😮💨
And I can't believe they're allowing it too. That I don't like at all.
Thank you! This show just has a giant identity crisis! It doesn't know what it wants to be and the writers never allow it to figure out!
@@motherfuckingenterprises7436 I totally agree, but I just gotta say, I love your username! 😂
I tend to call Marinette "the strangest mix of MarySue and Buttmonkey I've EVER seen."
She gets away with a shitton of stuff she really shouldn't, the obvious writer favoritism, etc, while also being used as the show's main source of (pretty unfunny) humor.
I think a big part of what makes her a Mary-Sue is her hyper competency as a miraculous holder. You have users like Adrien and Kagame who have trained all their lives to fight in hand to hand and sword play but Marinette the “clumsy” art/fashion enthusiast who’s never fought a day in her life was able to jump in and show them up at every turn. And outside of one clip where we see her jogging I don’t think we’ve ever seen her actually train or practice. Yeah I know on the job training is effective but she got good almost immediately while they have Adrien continue to flounder around most of the time. It’s so weird that Asterick gives him this active background in fighting but makes him the worst fighter.
I agree with this so much. She came in as Ladybug the first time and showed her clumsy side, the next time she came she had mastery over the base skills at least. Meanwhile Chat Noir just rushes in and gets destroyed when his fencing background should have made him much more patient. (What happend to parry, Thrust, etc..) we only saw some of his fighting skills in a select few episodes, one of them being riposte where he fought Kagami.
Let me not get into Kagami either. What Marinette did to her was messed up. Glad they are friends tho.
But yeah on the hyper competency. Adrien was pretty much horrible with the ladybug miraculous on his first time and the 2nd time he was good but that's only because his love for Ladybug didn't cloud his judgment (kinda like she holds him back mhmm) and then we have Aliya with the Ladybug miraculous beating him up easily..
Devils advocate(for the sake of discussion) the holders temporarily fuse with the kwamiis. Maybe tiki is helping marinette and plagg is hurting Adrian
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 That could have been an interesting plot point to introduce with Plagg limiting his users power. Accept in the episodes where they have used each others Miraculous they have the same dynamic with Adrien struggling while Marinette using the black cat powers with ease. And after all they have been through at that point it wouldn’t make sense for plagg to only be limiting Adrien and not her.
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 It's pretty clear that all the Miraculous users gain enhanced strength, speed, agility, etc to the same degree. The only thing holding them back is personal experience e.g. Queen Bee vs. Mayura.
Like they even show how more experience as a person benefits a Miraculous user. And somehow it's never done against Marinette to any relevant degree.
Marinette is not a complete Mary-Sue. She is just a badly written character is all. She is downright problematic and the worst thing is, she gets away with it, in the series and apparently in the fandom as well. She had her flaws but apparently the writer never actually used them to actually develop her character, hence the Mary-Sueness.
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Well said. I couldn't agree more
She's not a complete Mary-Sue, sure. In fact, she's 99% Sue and 1% Other (Being occasional underdog MC), but that still makes her a Sue nonetheless, and a Sue like that is always a badly written character.
PREACH
Honestly, considering the way how the Agreste saga was written, Marinette almost felt like a self-insert Mary Sue character that has been artificially inserted into Adrien's story. Both Mari and Adrien deserved better writing...
it doesn't help that i saw accusations, that Thomas basically self inserted Marinette in the show as his daughter with someone he used to date CALLED SABINE. And how oddly weird is it that Marinette father's name Tom is strangely similar to Thomas. If it is true that would explain the favouritism.
@@PotatoInDisguise Yes, I´ve heard that Astruc once dated a French-Chinese woman, and has said that Marinette was based on a imaginary daughter that he never had with his ex-girlfriend. And Marinette´s father, Tom, is apparently the self-insertion of Thomas, and Sabine is his ex... So, while Mari is not really a direct self-insert, I think it to some degree explains the way she´s written.
Sorry for being immature and randomly mentioning this but, does Thomas want to be a baker that is yapping about how he'll protect his family with trust/anger issues?? 💀
@@foxial5358omg that is so freaking weird🤢😭😭
@@emilycesaire1685 Haha, that´s definitely what Tom´s character is.😅I think he was just intended to be this funny dad who would do anything for his daughter, but seriously, he´s more immature than most of the under-age characters in the show. Not to mention given the gigantic differences in height and size, he and Sabine look like they are from different shows: Sabine is as small as Mari, which makes her look more like Tom´s other daughter than his wife or an adult. Like, Tom's hands alone are almost the size of her entire upper body.
I still remember when Santa said that Ladybug was the best behaved kid in the whole world and like... Maybe he really WAS just talking about Ladybug and not Marinette, but like... Really???
Santa as been create by Chris Master and she told him that before Chris as been akumatise.
Yeah that was…super unnecessary
Yep, and in the special (even though ik it's not cannon) she attacks him and makes a conclusion without having all the facts
There is no best behaved kid on the world (I mean we ALL have been selfish, arrogant, immature, etc SOME point in our lives) that is, if you count a newborn child born 10 seconds ago
Oops I meant in*
While Marinette is not a self-insert of Astruc, her father Tom is one. And for years I've heard rumours that her mother Sabine is modelled after an ex girlfriend Astruc had (who was chinese too), so in this sense, Marinette is like the fantasy daughter of himself and his ex.
And he put himself in the show as someone no one knows for creating the Miraculous Ladybug anime show.
That’s a true roomerit’s true because he said it in a tweet
@@Mapleleaf865 riiight, yes I think I heard that this information came from his tweets. But I have never seen the source, so I'll still regard this as a rumour. If he created these characters during that relationship I guess it's fine? But if he designed a fantasy child of him and his ex AFTER the break up I feel that would be a bit creepy 🥲...
@@LunaRuna212 Its definitely creepy, and it also explains the favouritism.
@@LunaRuna212 also he revealed in a tweet that Chloe is based on his bullies from when he was in high school.
I’d argue for the Season 4 finale when Marinette lost the Miraculouses it really wasn’t due to some flaw of hers, even if the show is trying to gaslight us into thinking that.
She didn’t do anything wrong and she didn’t blindly trust Felix only because she’s in love with Adrien. If anything, she did what I would assume anyone else would’ve done in her situation. When she learned that everyone had the little froggy marks she (somehow) remembered that “Adrien” didn’t, so she went to ask for his help. He was quite literally the only option she had - not only did he miss the froggy mark, but he was someone Ladybug knew well enough to trust him and to expect that he would return his Miraculous after the mission - literally no different to how in prior episodes she’s chosen all of her classmates/friends to be heroes as well.
It was quite literally not her fault that Adrien and Felix just so happened to switch places that day. How could she have known? And it also wasn’t a personal weakness of hers for failing to recognize Felix because absolutely no other character has been able to do that when he’s disguised as Adrien.
She didn’t fail because of a character flaw, she failed due to circumstances out of her control. But because Marinette feels guilty for it, she blamed herself for everything when it was just not her fault at all and there was nothing else she could’ve done to prevent this.
I agree with you on that
@@lilyyoung1002Me too. I hate it when people have to blame it on Marinette when it's not. I'm so disappointed. 😔
You do have a good point.
In this shows the characters usually either beat themselves over a minor mistake, or gloss over the giant ones
@@caitlinsparkle7717fr((
She survived getting punched into a wall by Monarch without any powers. She's either a Marysue or has OP plot armor.
Just Like many characters in that show💀, literally nobody dies and they all survive
Ngl there’s a lot of times things like this happen because they want to has things be flashy without consequences
It’s plot armor
As a person who loves the osp channel, i strongly agree with the mary sue criteria “If the character bends the story to their favor that it makes it unrealistic” and “they are the center of the universe “ which, yeah by that she is a mary sue and a terribly written character
This also reminds me of Wednesday.
The show doesn’t make her apologize for manipulating everyone, treating them like garbage, putting them in danger, or breaking school rules.
Yes, Enid called her out on her behavior and everyone was rightfully mad at her, but then the narrative bends the story to make everyone forgive Wednesday without her apologizing or suffering ANY consequences for her actions.
Netflix has a habit of making the female protagonist not suffering any consequences for their actions. They did the same thing in Sierra Burgess is a Loser.
Tim Burton’s (he dipped on Wednesday after directing four episodes) characters have paid the consequences for their actions. Jack Skellington being nuked by the army for giving creepy presents to kids, Barnabas Collins having his manor and company on fire for murdering innocents when he hated doing it, Sweeney Todd being killed by Toby because he was murdering people, and Emily not marrying Victor and getting turned to butterflies.
Marinette not paying the consequences for her actions is proof that she’s the creator’s pet. She got people akumatized, she bullied Chloe because “cHlOe DiD iT fIrSt 🥺🥺”, she abused her powers, she blackmailed Kagami because she was with Adrien, she stalked Adrien, she stole his phone, and is a creep in general. But nooo, she gets rewarded instead because the protagonist can do no wrong apparently.
I don’t like the “they are the center of the universe” criteria as that’s a lot of shows
Ash has saved the world so many times that you’d expect the world leaders to have his phone number whenever these rare legendary Pokémon that only get seen once a lifetime are attracted to him
Those are just “the chosen ones” which Ash and Marinette both are
Now other parts of their writing differentiate them more but…yeah main characters are going to be the most important in most kind of fantasy shows
@@pumpkinwarrior7138heres the thing though ash may be the chosen one but most of the time hes NOT at the center of the plot other people are too in the gen 3 movie's may and max were the ones freinds with legendarys and alot of times intire towns and other people are actually involved and ash and friends just get involved by accident and even then ash doesn't solve anything alone he also loses many battles and fails to save people like like latios lucario and whatnot most of the episodes in the anime don't even involve legendarys and are mostly normal ash isn't even actually the chosen one that was a mistranslation in the Japanese version of movie's 2000 the pprophecy talked about an exceptional trainer saving the world ash was just the nearest exceptional trainer.
@@pumpkinwarrior7138there are also other characters in spinoffs like richey jimmy and alain who get involved with legendarys.
@@pumpkinwarrior7138 i think the “crnter of the universe “ is more like , they bend the universe to their finger , i would nerd to re watch the video but it is a good watch
Chloe wasn't entirely a trash character, Astruc basically thinks she is trash, spoiled, rotten, and unforgivable. We the audience see her as a flawed and complex character since her mother isn't around and treats her father like a slave to her. But we all know that she has layers to what made her act that way. Chloe is not a terrible person, but Thomas doesn't give a damn, he thinks Chloe is a monster and Lila is a redeeming character.
DOUBLE STANDARDS!
No Chloe is definitely a terrible person up to this point BUT I can at least see why her upbringing made her a terrible person. I can agree about Astruc not knowing how to write though Lila is just as bad if not worse but she's somehow sympathetic and forgivable
@@zombiehunterzippy9823 Lila's a psychopath who is deadset on ruining Marinette's life all because she called her a liar once. Tell me exactly how that's more "redeemable" than a victim of literal child abuse?
@@Jellygirl313 It's not so I guess it's a good thing I never said it was. Also TBH I wouldn't say that Chloe was abused by her mother I think it's closer to neglect (which is still awful).
@zombiehunterzippy9823 I don't know. Abuse neglect have a habit of going hand in hand. In fact, I've been in the same position my whole life.
One of her main problems always comes down to her relationship with adrian. Every single time something bad happens it because of her obsession. Cat blanc caused she used her powers to get in his room, ephemeral cause she didn't tell luka to use second chance, heart hunter caused because of her jealousy picked kagami to help and was so distracted went to fu without detransforming, volpina and strike back for obvious reasons
About the writing, another problem is that the writers can't give up the spotlight. Has lots of other shows where it has other characters getting the spotlight and the main character takes a supporting role or barely any role. Which is why the adrian focus ep in season 5 was my favorite. It let him shine while marinette actually took the back seat for once and didn't let her be the saving grace
EXACTLY! Marinette always messes up when it comes to her blind love for Adrien!
I agree with this completely. The new other miraculous holders were never really developed and it felt like they were more tools for ladybug then actual characters with agency. Even cat noir/adrian didn’t have nearly enough screen time or just as much as Marinette even tho Adrian had a more interesting position in the show. The only characters I can think of that’s really escaped that was alya and was chloe (until the season 3 finally 💀💀) the writers definitely spend way more screen time on marionette then needed and it is at the detriment of the other characters
The thing is, when she makes mistakes (like accidentally exposing Fuu’s identity, or losing the box), no one blames her, instead they comfort her. But when Adrien makes a mistakes, both Ladybug and the show treats him as incompetent.
Not to mention she has a 'tragic backstory', which is what most Mary-Sues have.
So every character that has a tragic backstory is a marry sue?💀
I wouldn’t call her backstory tragic at all…she was bullied…a lot of people were
It’s pretty clear in the show that Adrien and Felix are the ones with the tragic backstories and the show’s plot is basically about the tragedy that’s fallen their family
That’s contrasted with Marinette’s healthy and loving family
@@pumpkinwarrior7138 so Adrien and felix are a Mary Sue.
@@paylon2108 No, but the thing is the context.
What this person means is that in the Mary Sue cases, usually they have a tragic backstory so the others characters feel sorry for her or things like that.
A tragic backstory can be a good backstory if it's not a excuse to justify every action your character does (even if it's a bad action) or make everybody loves it just bc they have a bad time in the past.
When a tragic backstory is used to show why the character is like that, why they do that and how they grow and can get better as a person and show how even if they have a bad life they can get better, it's a good backstory, when is use to make a villian have a motive, have their reasons a show a more human side of them, is a good backstory. But when is just tragic to have a excuse for the bad things they do like "yeah, they killed almost all people in the city but their have a bad life so it's okey!!!" or it's just a excuse for others characters to love them inmediatly and defend them with all their life and soul even if the character is a bad person o do things that should NOT be forgive, it's a bad backstory
Mary sue is a garbage term who doesn't mean nothing . If I use all the traits by definition Yuji Itadori would be the worst mary sue in fiction but people can't imagine this .
“Marionette is not a self insert of Astruct.”
Marinette’s father is named “Thomas” and he admitted to Marinette being the imagined love child between him and his crush at the time, so...
Ewww!🤢
Then that means Marinette's father is the self-insert?
My biggest issue with Marrinette is that, once she stood up to Chloe, she IMMEDIATELY started bullying her. The show is also just an absolute mess when it comes to morality.
Well, Thomas Astruc is still a part of the show and we all know what he thinks about Chloe and Gabriel sooooooooooo..🤷♀️
huh? so her standing up to chloe = bullying her??
@@DragonGoddess18Thomas needs to go and create a new show and leave Zag to be incharge for the new seasons.
@@Dred0n I heard he's going to direct Astro boy but at the same time he still involve in Miraculous as art supervisor and claimed that he had more control for season 6. So, don't put more hope for the further season as long as that buffoon still involve
@@hangezoe7472 Smh and here I was thinking he was going have little part in season 6.
She sure is cutting it close as of the awful S5 finale, my GOD.
The show is called Miraculous Tales of Ladybug _AND_ Chat Noir, yet the show has been progressively insisting more and more that Ladybug and Marinette are the only ones that matter to the story, as if the writers didn't make the conscious decision to make Adrien/Chat Noir's entire *character* and *plotline* be tied to the main villain and the ramifications of that. Yet, what happens in S5? Adrien isn't allowed to learn any major revelations about Monarch or his dad. Instead, they're both basically _handed to Marinette_ because she's Ladybug. She never even investigates this on her own. Felix and Kagami have to come out of nowhere to hand her the answer while Adrien is literally written out of the resolution of HIS OWN FAMILY TRAGEDY just so Marinette can solve it on her own. And yeah, she doesn't really solve it, but she's still the only one out of our two deuteragonists present for it. And the major trait that makes Mary Sues annoying is that the story will bend in on itself to keep the Sue at the center. There was literally no reason why Adrien couldn't learn that his own father was Monarch. Even if you wanna ignore the whole Sentimonster plot line and have Adrien learn that later, there is *no reason* why Adrien, *the son of Monarch and the primary victim of the Agreste Family Tragedy* couldn't be there for the resolution. No, instead they're gonna push it off to S6 where Adrien can't even confront Gabe on his abuse.
I say she is. The intro talks about how she is an “ordinary girl” but the average teenager is not that popular, nor skilled at so many things. I remember that scene where Zoe meets all of Marinette’s friends on the barge and thinking isn’t that almost her whole class? That and how every episode she is treated like she is 100% right (except the finale) and doesn’t need to learn anything makes her very Mary Sue. It’s seldom you get a Mary Sue that meets all the qualifications. I think it counts since she meets most of them.
Even in the final the whole city of Paris literally cheers for her
Even in the darkest moment of the show she's loved, cheered, and applauded even when she does something morally wrong
Yeah especially cause she's like 13-14yrs old, so she's not really a "teenager", yet she has a better life than must talented adults
While I don't think Marinette is 100% a Mary-Sue, she definitely has a lot of the qualities of one. I think the real problem she suffers from is poor writing.
….honestly Zoe is a bigger Mary Sue than Marinette. I will die on this hill. Marinette has her Mary Sue moments but I think Zoe is the DEFINITION of a Mary Sue.
She immediately befriends the main protag on her first episode.
She lands a spot on the miraculous team the episode RIGHT AFTER her debut episode. (While everyone else had to wait for their respective miraculi for much longer)
She has no problems using the bee miraculous (though that could be said for most of the temp heroes)
She is immediately liked by everyone (except Chloe because of course) And is given a star role right off the back in the class project in Queen Banana when the role could have been played by anyone.
She’s chosen by Plagg to wield the cat miraculous (when there were other choices (LUKA, KAGAMI, NINO (though I understand why Nino wasn’t picked))
All of her flaws were solved in her debut episode so she has little to no flaws.
In fact the only flaw that I feel like she has is how incredibly mid of a character she is being despite ALL of this, the writers have done nothing compelling with her character.
She’s just nice….and that’s it-
Tbh, I agree
I 100% agree with you
And a Doormat and heistant to be a hero and also she struggles to just be herself
@@sailingthemwebslmao that not her fault that she gets more screentime
Do you watch Cyrus the Great or Miraculously Gory? Just asking cause the said almost the exact same thing you typed😂
I feel like the only way to actually redeem her would have been to make Adrien straight up reject her and never get with her/reciprocate her feelings. But no, instead her four seasons of stalking are rewarded, and she gets the guy she stalked and harassed...Very dangerous message to send to kids, for me at least. And the worst part is that Adrien will never know she did all this.
He knows buuuuuut he's okay with it
Womp womp
I hated *hated HATED* Chloe being the anti-sue. Nothing but flaws. I was just so angry because people just aren't like that irl!
i wish cat noir and ladybug were equal but we all know that will never happen
Its so annoying how the writers think that PTSD can explain stalking. PTSD leads to isolation. ALSO, if she was traumatised how woukd she not get a reaction or at least a bit paranoid when near chloe or kim. I will actually bet money that they just pulled this out of their ass because of the hate.
The issue with her "one big flaw" is that it didnt make the 5th seasons encounters any more difficult, she never once had to improvise something because she didnt have a tertiary hero, and it directly led to Gabriel being more careless because he *thought* he was more powerful which led directly to him being defeated. If a "negative" actually turns out to be a positive with no real consequences, was it ever really a negative?
Things that should have happened as a result of her losing the other miraculous but didnt:
-Su Han immediately turning against her due to proving she was not capable after all
-Gabriel becoming much more deadly due to having many more powers. Remember how Sentimonsters made old villains legitimately more difficult to defeat and some of them came down to hail marys?
-Related, possibly Gabriel immediately winning due to how OP some of the Miraculous are. Obviously this one gets a pass because it cant happen, but still. Dont write and obvious win con for your villain and then give it to him if he cant be allowed to use it.
-Marinette having times when she could win very easily if she had access to a certain Miraculous, and having to come up with a much more difficult plan because she doesn't.
The fact that she avoids all the consequences of her actions *again* and only gets rewarded for it proves that shes a Sue.
Exactly, I don't understand things like in the first episode.
Why just not letting Gabriel make tje right decision? Because is now nonsense why he wants the miraculous (I'm in episode 7 of seaon 5), but honestly that right there should've been the reset button of the entire thing, because people wore already sick of the Adrinette thing, and they decided to force it to happen instead of making a reset of the thing.
Compared to Chloe and Lila, Marinette will sink to their level if needed in their fued. Marinette has done creepy, mean, and criminally questionable actions in the show.
No, but like even at the end of season 4, she only makes that “mistake” because she’s being influenced by risk. It kinda just feels like the writers literally saying, “she literally NEVER does any wrong! The only way she can fail is if she’s literally being magically forced to!”. Kinda ruins that as a character flaw for me 🥲 like why couldn’t we just have her be impulsive and make a understandable mistake there
Now that Marinette not only has to hide the fact that she's Ladybug/Guardian, AND that Gabe was Monarch and that whole thing was a farce, maybe they can use that to make her more flawed, hiding things and being dishonest to Adrien, throwing a wrench in their new relationship. kinda like that one episode with Luka. Except preferably not in just one episode.
Marinette case of Mary Sue is even worse.
She is rewarded even when she mess up, she cause the miraculous box being stolen the first time, and she is rewarded as being the guardian (even though she lost the bee miraculous previously).
She lose all the miraculous, and all Paris chant her name to give her support, and Sun Han even apologize to her (even though her mistakes proved him right that she was not ready at all to be the guardian).
Her crush with Adrien cause her to lose her and Chat noir miraculous and she now is the girlfriend of Adrien.
And later she lose those miraculous AGAIN, and she is rewarded as the leader of the team and still being trusted as the guardian (even though she must be the worst guardian ever, (although not entirely her fault)). The worst part is that she still is praised as the best, even though Chat Noise have messed up less than her
Also when the ladybug and cat miraculous were stolen the first time, she also had super speed, cause she witnessed the location of Hawkmoth, manage to go to her house, could prepare a disguise with a helmet and a fake lucky charm, go to Monarch, hide the fake lucky charm in the span of seconds.
Or when she manages to replace a mirror in the portable bathroom, install microphones in order to revela Lila true identity
Sun Han is always right about everything but the show says us he is wrong
Oh she's absolutely a Mary-Sue. Her biggest "flaw" is that she's clumsy. Anyone who doesn't get along with her is evil beyond redemption, she's beloved by pretty much everyone else in the show. Only SHE can come up with solutions as Ladybug and Fu even declared her the best Ladybug of all time (exactly how many ladybugs has he seen in action anyway for him to determine that?). She's won the attention and admiration of big fashion designers in the industry, a internationally famous rocker commissioned HER to make his album cover, she's never wrong about anything ever and the slightest possibility that she might be, there are no real consequences or stakes. Pretty much every guy in her class has crushed on her at some point. The list goes on she is a badly written character. Don't even get me started on her absolutely DEMENTED stalking of Adrien.
It also seems to me that the writers (or whoever is responsible) want Miraculous to be the kind of show where the main character is a vehicle through wich the audience (children) are supposed to learn valuable life lessons.
Except this does not work. The character that messes up and learns from their mistakes and the character that is never wrong and loved by everyone (except those irredeemable evil) can not be the same character.
What exactly is the audience supposed to learn when, after your main character has learned something valuable through messing up, you turn around and go "actually she was always right and none of this was her fault in any way" and in many cases also reward her for it? Like, what am I or anyone else supposed to take away from that?
Also when she makes mistakes (like accidentally exposing Fuu’s identity, or losing the box), no one blames her, instead they comfort her. But when Adrien makes mistakes, both Ladybug and the show treats him as incompetent and untrustworthy.
What gets me angry is how she manages to date him, even though never having a full conversation or anything (making the whole adrienette thing badly developed) so basically she got a reward for it instead of a consequence (plus she only stopped cause she's already dating him)
@@Dumblilv huh that part does make sense though, Adrien's first friend was marrinette and he didn't understand her behaviour but gave her the benefit of doubt , he trust her probarbly because of that reason . And in season 4 or 5 I think he talks to her about his modeling career and it develops alot more. And uh not to mention the boy blushed so much in the other seasons and showed care even beffore that so when kagami says like you like her or something im like finally. Also Adrien says like the part in the museum was the moment he noticed which at first I was like WHY THAT , then after thinking I realised maybe he just say that as a confession. Idk I have been watching miraculous for a really long time and i think it did well with adrienette that part wasn't bad at all. I think that people r just being as blind as Adrien if you didn't notice Adrien's care for her👍
@@Dumblilvplus girl what you mean she stops because she is dating him did you miss a episode? She stops when she uncovers her trauma bro 💀
Cyrus has been calling her "Mari-sue" for a while and made a bunch of points so- yea gotta say yes
Cryus is pessimistic so i was expecting that
@@neomasmacaroonlets be real they did chloe dirty
Cyrus is just being a contrarian because that generates views.
And generates laughs too. Have you seen the memes?
@@neomasmacaroon Tom said that chloe was a character that couldnt be redeemed. She was a full super hero but then they took the miraculous from her just to hammer in that she cant be redeemed even though she is just a school bully. However Gabriel, a man who has definitely killed many people was redeemed in 5 minuted and is now remembered as a hero by all of Paris.
I've said this on another Miraculous video, but I compare Marinette to Peter Parker quite a lot.
The difference?
Peter actually has struggles when he has to balance with Spider-man a lot.
But Marinette had this happen to her at the end of season 4 and that's it (to my knowledge, I don't really watch the show myself anymore)
So I'd say that in comparison to Peter, she is quite the Mary Sue. Just like you said, not fully, but mostly
Marinette does have problems balancing her life and we see them even in season 1 with her getting scolded for missing days but it doesn’t really affect anything
She still can sneak out and fight
Lets be honest here marinette is definitely a mary sue. Her flaws seems to be more lke quirks if anything. I mean her reason to like adrien was just that umbrella scene. Thats not enough. She didnt get to know him much because how flustered she gets when shes around him. Heck her friends even try to help her with it instead of telling her that her stalking and knowing adriens schedule is creepy and not healthy. I know that they then explain why shes like this but that isnt much of excuse for her friends not telling its wrong plus this shows that kim isnt as a "nice guy" like he seems to be. I guess that losing the miraculous wasnt her fault but she had 2 tries to get them back or at least the most dangerous ones to minimize the danger a bit but she didnt. All her problems she seems she could fix so there is no one to repermend her since Su Han only appears once or twice, Alya trust marinette until lila's lies came out and chat noir/Adrien loves ladybug so much that he doesnt have the guts to tell her when shes wrong.
He does call her out sometimes
I feel like Marinette is close to becomming a Mary Sue, but isn't there yet.
For seasons 1 to 4, I don't believe she's one. She doesn't have many flaws, but the writing didn't go out of their way to fix her flaws at the cost of other characters.
In my opinion, that did change in season 5. Her 2 main flaws (being a stalker to Adrien and losing the Miraculous to Felix and Gabe) are being fixed in a very unsatisfying way:
- For the stalking: Blaming Chloe and her bullying for her stalking behaviour instead of her acknowledging it herself and accepting that it's not ok to behave like that is a very poor writing decision
- For the Miraculous: Even tough she felt guilty in the beginning of the season and tried to go after Felix in episode 2, her heroing quickly reverted to beating the villain of the week, instead of trying to recover the Miraculous. In the end, she alone got told the Agreste backstory out of nowhere and went 1 on 1 with Gabe, coming out as the winner, with Cat Noir being completely left in the dark of what happened (at least, that's what I understood out of the ending scene in the finale). The writing did a very poor job of making Cat Noir an equal partner to Ladybug and helping her getting the Miraculous back, fixing the issue that Marinette/Ladybug had. At the end of season 5, everybody has their own Miraculous now, so Cat Noir now is truly exactly the same as every other superhero. I feel like that's a very poor fix for the conflict of season 4.
I feel like these 2 decisions in the writing puts her in danger of becomming a Mary Sue, but to to the other 4 seasons, she isn't there yet. We'll have to see whenever season 6 releases, if this trend continues or not
I feel like for a big part of the show she never has *actual* consequences. She just feels a little guilty about what she did, and the show plays it off like whatever bad thing she did, and her being sad about doing it are equal
Equal partner?
@@NearsightedNarhwalit definitely depends on the action
Feeling bad about how she treated kagami and apologizing is appropriate
Whatever happened in derision…I don’t know man
Three words Marinette's actions portrayed if she were in the real world:
Restraining order and JAIL 🔒⛓️🚨🚔
Yep! True!
She's been a Mary-Sue for years and it's taking a good portion of the fandom to realize what I've been saying for years.🙄
Marinettes biggest flaw is that she is a people pleaser and incredibly impulsive. Like she takes on too much because she can’t say no which gets her in situations like when she had to babysit and be at an interview at the same time. She makes stupid impulsive decisions that she later has to fix. And she lacks good communication skills with chat noir pushing him away instead of talking to him and explaining why she’s afraid to rely on him. All these flaws do cause problems for her the problem is that all her problems are almost always fixed within the episode or are never really placing the blame on her even when it should. She has some interesting flaws and stuff but they’re never fully explored.
She is a Mary Sue imo… just bc she doesn’t have every single characteristic of a Mary Sue doesn’t mean that she’s NOT one 🤨 like she still is one
Marionette is a character who has a lots of missed potential she could’ve been an intresting character had they given her flaws and had consequences for her mistakes and creepy stalking behaviour. Like many things in miraculous she suffers from bad writing
"had consequences for her mistakes"
The end of season 4: I'm a joke to you ?
she didn't suffer a consequence tho. she lost all the miraculous to the most infamous terrorist in paris. and what did she get? still everyone's support.@@eleonorepb4565
@@eleonorepb4565technically, not her fault, taking a logical standpoint adrian was the best choice, and how would marionette know that it’s actually the senti-clone of the character and not the actual character?
The moment I say the title I clicked. Happy Thanksgiving Smarty and truly thanks for this Miraculous video. (As usual I do highly enjoy when you create them)
She is the definition of a Mari-Sue. Yes I spelled it that way on purpose. No, I don't believe it was an accident of her writing at all. Since season 1 to the end on season 5 and waiting on season 6 that hasn't changed.
Miraculous tries to state balance/equality between characters when it's all about just one girl being in control and all the guy heroes ESPECIALLY HER SUPPOSED PARTNER SECOND PROTAGONIST CATTASTIC KITTY CAT NOIR just being her yes men.
As Shadybug yelled at her before basically turning into her at the end. "I don't have your nice little life. No amazing BFF, no awesome girlfriends to inspire me everyday, let alone a calm/gentle mom or a boyfriend who doesn't think I'm a total loser."
So yes, completely and undeniably Marinette Dupain-Cheng is a horrible and true definition example of Mary-Sue, that won't ever change. Everybody worships her in both her persons.
Everyone have a blessed Thursday November 23, 2023 at 8:25AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
You give major incel vibes, go touch some grass
Yep! Facts!
I have been saying fir a while they made Adrian more interesting but he does rarely nothing as cat noir 😢
THIS ☝️
Fr and that's the writer fault like LB is always solving everything while they make Cat Noir destroy stuff they didn't even give him an upgrade.
Chat Noir didn't even get any special upgrades between seasons 1-5. Hell he had to quit just so they would remember that "oh yes Chat Noir is human too and deserves to know everything from the power ups to master Fu's history". He's pretty much the same power wise, he was actually useful again in season 5 which was good and too short-lived.
What irks me the most is that damn kuro neko episode. Adrien is sad that he's left out, that he's no longer really needed even for enemies he and Ladybug alone easily took care of. Ladybug doesn't even care about his feelings all that much until she sees that he quit again. Now they got a chance to talk at the end. Great now he can finally tell her.. that he's in love with her and can't be without her? What!? All the build up where the story shows us that he feels inadequate and useless. Not part of the team anymore... only for the reason to be his love for Ladybug.. the best Chat Noir is when he's not in love with her honestly, which makes me wish he actually fell for Kagami completely (they make sense together)
It was definitely done on purpose. The whole discourse on twitter about chat noir being a better than ladybug started before s3 got released. Pretty much after s3 chat noirs personality was completely assassinated, he rarely had any screen time. His witty, flirty personality from s1-2 was gone. Adrien became a puppet for marinette’s dumb decisions
1:20 well actually... funny thing in a tweet Thomas said that Marinette was his fictional child with a ex girlfriend who was chinese, and that's why Marinette father is called Tom, even worse in original concept, marinette parents didn't own a bakery, sabine was a lawyer and tom was a cartoonist, so there you have it
I'm gonna go puke.
Ew wtf
Yup, she is not 100% Mary Sue, just 99% Mary Sue
🗿
tbh far in the s3 days it was kinda obvious MArinette had her flaws, and in s4, it's shown that she's grown from them, little by litter, but she did try her best
Then in s5 she is suddenly the Most Perfect Girl on Earth, and that there is nothing she could ever do wrong. Why? Because apparently her stalking is justified because -
1. She did it out of love
2. A 'flashback' that was never acknowledged in the earlier episodes show that she resorted to stalking because Kim was actually a mean person along with being a friend to Chloe, so the next time she fell in love with someone, she was obligated to stalk them, even if Adrien NOT being mean towards Marinette is what made her fall for him in the first place
3. Lila does WORSE stalking of her own which is NOT out of love and some other creepy shit to compare with Marinette's 'innocent' stalking. Which was revealed in s5 btw
The direction Miraculous Ladybug is going right now kinda reminds me of fucking Shield Hero. Our main character is an optimistic ray of sunshine completely broken by the Evil Older Princess who is responsible for pretty much any bad thing that happens in the series, despite other factors contributing to her 'evilness'. Because of the horrible past of people who suffered her, the Mean Princess is finally brought to justice...several times...only for her to escape otherwise. Spoilers downward
Then our Evil Princess has a fucking abusive mom (yes I DID say abusive...and am quite surprised at the lack of calling out fucking MIREILLA or whatever her name is over her daughter), a dad who spoiled her until he said "fuck it" and a younger sister whom they replaced her with. And then, there's this fucking ex of hers who is pretty much the OTHER Mary Sue of the series (after our protag of course) and is pretty much a lot more 'eviller' than the character you are supposed to direct your vitriol to
Meanwhile, our MC barely gets their flaws addressed, and at the end, they are left fucking blameless. Literally everyone who does not stand with them is now their fucking cheerleader
(this is why takt is my favorite character despite never having read the rotsh ln itse-)
Also the fact that MArinette is supposedly awfully strong in both, physical and mental specs, as well as her getting a flatout 100% despite us never really seeing her study awfully hard, and her superhero responsibility makes me feel...awfully jealous. Like maybe acing a test is a piece of cake to the target audience if they put their minds to it, but as someone studying the easiest of tenth grade courses, I am in literal hell. Studying is one thing, acing a goddamn test is completely different
I mean people don’t call out her mom that isn’t around because a lot of people have been neglected but that doesn’t mean they’ll side with mr. Evil, child puncher
@@pumpkinwarrior7138 tbh Lila should have been ml's malty instead of how she's takt now.
Just a little add on about mary sues, they can actually have flaws, its a mary sue however when the flaws are treated as not actual flaws and glossed over. Like for example if Bojack horsemans flaws where never addressed and he was always portrayed as the victim and he would always get his way in a ''he was the victim, he was right'' kind of way he would be a mary sue even if he had the same flaws he does originally
There are a few children's shows with character's that are Mary Sues - the important thing is t o remember too also make the character likeable
Geez, Gabe seems more like a main character than Marinette. Dude has to train for his powers a lot of the time, and he still gets his ass handed to him. 😂
Is Marinette a Mary Sue? The short answer: Absolutely!
To me Mary-Sue just means a character who makes the narrative bend to her will. Everyone who loves her is rewarded, everyone who hates/dislikes her is punished. She has "flaws" but they don't hold weight unless they directly concern her heroes journey to greatness. She's just a boring, yet frustrating character to watch.
Fits Marinette perfectly
@@madysonslays9662 Pretty much, I think Mari helped me realize what my definition for Mary-Sue was.
I feel like early Marinette wasn't much of a Mary Sue. Is anyone here a fan of Alix or Kagami?
I love Kagami with my heart and soul 😭🙏🏼 her, Luka, and Felix are my favorite characters
yes i love Kagami
she is one of my favourite characters
They're both my favorites! 🥰
Honestly, I'm glad to hear it, because I usually don't interact with other fans, especially in the romance or horror genre. I love Kagami, but she is a bit of a miss for me.
@@crossnasch8502 It's fine. Not everyone has the same opinion on a character. All you can do is respect it. I can understand why you'd feel that way. ☺️
if she wasn't clumsy, she'd literally be the embodiment of a Mary-sue
Making a character clumsy, but never when it would actually inconvenience her, is a common tactic of writers who are just self-aware enough to realize that they're writing a Mary Sue but don't know how to properly fix the problem.
Ohhhh so excited to hear you talk about this again ❤
I hate this character with every fibre of my being. She's the worst MC I've ever watched. No wonder she's Thomas' fictional daughter
This maybe off topic but I did have this one idea that the creator of the show can do.
Which is make a spin-off version of the show call Miraculous What If.
The series can be about what if scenarios that could happen if the chance shows itself.
It was obvious in the first season.
That's why I dropped it.
The series had a lot of potential, but fell very flat in its execution.
I honestly could not understand the hype that went on so long.
Though I did try to understand it.
1:23 I thought that marinette was the fictional lovebaby from astruc and his exwife (sabine).
I agree that it's absolutely insane how Gabriel is the one who feels like the underdog, even with basically everything at his fingertips!
Matter of fact, she doesn't need to have ALL the characteristics of a Mary Sue to be classified as one, she just needs to have the majority of them for the classification to count ; and i think she qualifies a lot.
There is clear favoritism from Thomas Astrucc towards her, and i think the genre and target audiences (as well as the fake Feminism of the creator) are just excuses to raise Marinette above the others.
Adrienne, Gabriel, Nathaliè, Chloè, Lila Rossi, Kagami, Felix...heck i could keep going...are ALL more interesting and complex than Marinette that just breezes through life and all issues she comes across.
A problem the main character can easily solve or walk away from, is also a conflict that the audience can walk away from beceause there are NO stakes involved!
Marinette is almost a full blown Mary Sue at worst, and a weak protagonist at best.
One of the biggest problems is that Hawk Moth can't win or the show is basically "over". Should HM actually succeed even once, meaning acquiring the ladybug and black cat miraculous, that's it. They should have made his goals more nebulous, like he has to collect some type of energy or the pieces of some magical maguffin. That way, HM can have the occasional win without it meaning absolute victory for him. There's also the issue that he's been the main antagonist for far too long.
The shows 2 main plots: The Evil Butterfly Man and The 2-person Lovesquare had been so dragged out and got little to no actual development, that I had gotten bored and tired of waiting for anything meaningful (or consistent) to happen that I gave up watching the show halfway through S5.
I still read the occasional fancomic/fic though.
If Miraculous would sticked to having Marinette with a better personality the story would move forward
Is Marinette a Mary Sue?
Without even clicking on the video: YES.
But I've heard from Cyrus the Great that there's nothing wrong with making a Mary Sue if they're meant to be comedic- but Mari isn't comedic in every aspect.
I heard something about the final of the season 5.
It was intended from the start to be a reversal of the story of the knight fighting a dragon to defeat the princess.
Ladybug is the knight
Monarch the Dragon
And Adrien the Dragon trap from the dragon.
Yes she is a complete Mary sue. People just are salty and don't want to admit it
Not at 100%
so what your saying is.... she's a, SUE-per hero
I would say she is, but she also isn’t.
In terms of overcoming conflicts or finding out solutions or beating the villains, she most definitely is. She somehow has more plot armor than Batman himself (and I say that as someone who loves Batman). Seriously, why is Cat Noir even here if Ladybug’s powers literally does everything to solve the problem. He’s power is rendered useless if Ladybug is strong enough to the object herself. And as for the Agreste Arc, she barely has any connection to what is going on yet she’s the one who solves everything while the son of the villain has no clue what even happened.
But in terms of character traits and stuff like that, she isn’t really, but she is not far from falling into that category. She has goals and qualities that anyone could relate to, but her big character flaws (her creepy and stalkerish behavior towards Adrien), are not really treated as flaws, in fact they’re brushed off as a joke most of the time, and that is not a good thing.
So, to quote Mephiles the Dark:
“The answer is yes and no.”
At least in my opinion, anyway.
Every time I think of how everything was so forced, and gavsn to her so easily, without any previous build up it makes me angry
list of Marinette's pros n cons (off the top of my head)
Marinette's talents: [13]
- fashion prodigy
- gaming prodigy
- leadership role
- time n work management
- class rep
- popular
- always learns from her mistakes
- quick thinker
- guardian of the miraculous
- holder of the ladybug miraculous
- can use the most miraculous at the same time compared to everyone else
- considered attractive (she pulls)
- plot armor n always wins
Marinette's flaws: [5]
- overthinking
- stresses n panics easily
- clumsy (if that counts)
- emotions cloud her judgement n thinking
- feels weighed/stressed from responsibility
Bonus -> Marinette's b1tches (who she pulled): [6]
- Luka
- Adrien
- Zoe
- Nino
- Nathaniel
- that one guy from episode 'Copycat' (as Ladybug)
My opinion: I agree w the video, she's mostly a Mary sue, but not too much of it. Although she does have a ton of skills/talents that outnumber her flaws, the cons are still heavy weights that can affect her and the huge responsibility she carries. Being a Mary sue is pretty common for main characters anyway especially when they have heavy plot armor.
gotta be honest, I would love to have seen the show be from the perspective of gabe, portraying him as a good guy (Ik, he isn't, but let's just imagine)
he lost his wife because of his desire to have a son, he hates himself for making that choice and not just letting things happen naturally, (not being able to have kids) and he silently resents his son because if Adrien was never born Emily would still be alive.
him and his son's relationship is damaged past repair, the love of his life is gone, and he is all alone. He goes down a dark path to do anything he can to get his wife back, as he believes that will fix everything.
when he finally starts to have hope that he can have a family again he is stopped over and over again by a child who he believes is undeserving of the boundless powers she has been given and could never understand what he is going through because she has never felt hardship in her entire life. that same child is also driving his son further and further away from him. Gabe believes that there is nothing this girl wouldn't do to ruin his life and make sure that he never gets his family back.
she's the mary suest mary sue in the history of god damn mary sues.
I feel something that defines a Mary Sue is not only if they’re objectively perfect, but also if they’re portrayed as such even if they aren’t and even if the author does give them flaws if they’re portrayed as good qualities they are still Mary Sues and Gary Stus.
She is and the most agreegious kind ever....
Its the imaginary child of a relationship Thomas Austtruc had
He made tom as his self insert and Sabine was his ex girlfriend....
Marinette is his Daughter he never had
And is really creepy he made her a stalker mary sue
One of the biggest points of an authors development is intentionally putting characters through a breaking experience, whether is be traumatic physically or emotionally, it has a lasting effect on a character of theirs that is detrimental the the story’s plot. Once at least one of your stories has one, it helps you realize all characters can’t be perfect, and something wrong needs to happen to make a story interesting. Whether it’s be a disaster or a betrayal that has ongoing pressure on the character, they can’t be perfect in at least most of aspects. Sure marinette has some trauma but it only really developes as a result of plot points that should’ve been traumatic from the get go. To put it shortly, writers are fictional masochists who need to indulge in the angsty side of stories to build a good plot.
For reason it will can be intresting if she got some mental illness can't handle with that became unable to comunicate properly she had to gave up and give Adrien the role of guardian for some time (later he'll give it back) and he should be leader of the team we will see more of him and maybe Gabriel could starts thinking abt thr truth then Alya will become more Adrien's friend bcs of Mari problems (we see she often wants to be alone) or Alya as manipulative person (she'll help Lila) bcs of Mari being in center makes Kagami think that Mari rly should be bad friend what causes more trouble or Mari uses ring so Monarch could unmask Mari and Alya could know both Adrien and Maris secret and bcs of that she couldn't keep secret let's Nino knows who will have less trust to Adrien so he will give a guard to his father and cause issues for Mari who starts thinking Adrien is Chat and this everything will give them more personality
I have much more ideas
In my opinion, Marinette is more of a poorly written good guy. Even at one point if she was a mary-sue, I feel like its not the case with all the trauma, heartbreak and growth she had during season 3, 4 and 5. Not to mention how the movie portrayed her, The writing just sucks in the show.
The timetravel thing was the dumpest scene with Gabriel.
There was absolute no reason, to not place the stick in the past and than go to Ladybug. All he had to do was, to open his hand.
He didnt even needed to be fast. I dont remember it correctly, but i think he even knowed, that he was able to turn back time. Even if Ladybug had attacked his past self, could he simply watch the window, turn the time of the window back and than showed up to the right moment.
And even, if he doesnt knowed this option, was there again the point, that he only needed to place his stick.
But hey, no matter how many L he obtained in the show. At last was he truly the one, who won at the end.^^
GOOD VIDEO, MARINETTE IS A FUCKING MARI SUE, all the characters become her friends or fall in love with her as soon as they meet her
All the characters, even those who are not her friends, are willing to help her in her romantic melodrama.
She is the best carrier and guardian without making an effort because Marinette ''she is so unique and better than everyone'', even giving lessons to adults
and the only ones who don't constantly praise her are labeled as unredeemed villains like CHLOE.
Depends on which one you're talking about. Movie Marinette iis obviously not as she's shown to be clumsy, shy awkward and has actual flaws, while Show Marinette is 100% a Mary Sue.
Look, daiko only rarely loses, because losing would mean death XD
His biggest loss, however, wasn’t a fight he couldn’t win. It was a friend he couldn’t save. Literally, Tousens head exploded on him.
I'm still stuck on how Marinette had a crush on Kim prior to the show beginning before Adrien came into the picture. I feel like there's more to her than what I thought.
Reminder that Mary Sues can have flaws, but these flaws can be used to further give the Mary Sue further attention by making them look pitiful, turning them into a Sympathy Sue. However, these attempts end up being hollow as these flaws or obstacles barely affect the narrative and is only there for cheap drama (in Mari's chase, the whole not believing her over Lila situation).
As for Marinette, I think she's a bit of both, she's a Mary Sue in some aspects and a Sympathy Sue in others. However, she's also not fully a sue since there are some interesting bits of her character. I think Mari is bordering on being a sue.
I have seen Reader & (insert character or fandom here) fanfics better than MLB.
Where the "reader" or self insert has depth, flaws, and grows as a character. For example, I've read an amazing Fem Reader x Bakugou story called "The Reaper" on Archive of Our Own (AO3 is the acronym I believe).
Hell, the fanfiction for Miraculous alone is better. They make Mari a more likeable character by taking away her stalker behavior.
Like as a teen girl myself, yeah some of us do like to "stalk" our crushes, especially celebrities. But we only do online stalking. We wouldn't dare to actually sneak into the guy's house 😭
Mary Sue idk she definitely has flaws but creators pet?? Yeah pretty much
The funniest review I've watched on UA-cam!
Sure this is Disney we're talking about, but neither corporate or creative.
This is not Disney the animation studio. This is not Disney the company.
This... is Disney the distributor of superhero cartoons that are set in France.
I was waiting for a ladybug video!
She needs to get some jail time
there are countless times where marinette should have lost....that technical loss in the finale of S5 was well overdue, not deserved, but overdue....
I’m surprised that people actually like this show it’s way too childish for me personally but the aesthetics were always cool to me. I was also always bored with the main character so I stopped at like episode 10
In the earlier seasons she is quite the yandere sue in my opinion
I wouldn't say she's completely a mary sue as she does flaws in the show. It just the bad writing of her character and favouritism as she gets treated as a parent's favourite daughter while Adrian is in the shadows alot.
So I think Lila is a bigger mary sue
true❤❤❤her cave has all the proof we need.even her actions and stuff.🎉 atleast mari isnt one.she never really was.😮
@@SweetSentiLight101I agree with you.
@@ultimatedisneycruiselinefa5112 thx
If only Gabe used second chance AFTER ladybug used her lucky charm because then her plan would stay the same
gabriel had the power of time and space and easily lost to technically 1 teenager becausecat noir was preety much a side character in his own show thhat is some BS plot armour right their
I agree with the comments here
I don't see her as a Mary-Sue
She's just badly written
And this is coming from someone who's watched every season
At 12:24 I agree with that she isn’t a full on Mary sue but I think certain characters shouldn’t have forgiven her like Luka,Kagami hell I dare say juleka the should have distanced themselves from her and marinette should have reflected on what she did and put herself in their shoes have her realize her actions gravely made them distrust her and she has to earn their trust back while Luka it’s kinda obvious about that since they were ex and being friends with an ex can be pretty difficult but I also believe that’s it mainly how other characters react to her Luka and kagami have every right to be upset or dare I say hate her because of the things she pulled even if her heart in the right place that doesn’t excuse her crossing some serious boundaries with them
I think it being a mistake would've opened the door for improvement. By her near-flawlessness or even flawlessness being on purpose, the door is shut.
I had an idea I actually liked, so for some reason they didn't allow Adrien to face his villain father.. In the finale of this season or next, when the fight Lila, it should be only Adrien fighting her. Since she despises Mari it's obviously she would try and get rid of her. And they let her do it, just put Mari in a position where she can't fight and let Chat face Lila alone. And Lila being Lila she would spill the truth about hawkmoth/Gabe. That has so much potential!!
If anybody wad gonna fight Gabriel that will be ladybug not cat noir
@@Aydan2108 I mean she's the main character she would of also had to be involved, but Hawkmoth was literally his father... The writers should of never thought forcing him out of the finale fight, just so Mary Sue can be "tough need no man hero". I'm just saying the forced him to the side at one of the biggest moments for him, imagine the conflict afterwards!
@blazethedragonmiraculousus4995 marry sue?, so Adrian is not the super nice guy who have a super rich Father and is so famous and loved by everyone, it seems that you keep forgetting that ladybug is THE main character not Cat noir.
@@Aydan2108 Lets see Adrien gets super jealous, so hes flawed and that jealousy always has consequences. Marinette is a stalker and possesive, but that'd never brought up and its treated as if its a cute quality.. And the show is supposed to have to main protagonists, Ladybug AND Chat Noir. The show is trying to force Ladybug to be perfect, while they make Chat Noir a barely relevant side charecter. Chat Noir is almost as bad as Ladybug, but he hus flaws have more consequences. Even in the video Marinette is still a Mary Sue of sorts, just not as bad as she was in the beginning.
@blazethedragonmiraculousus4995 wdym by possessive?, and she WAS a stalker, ladybug is THE main character, cat noir is her sidekick, he is basically a main side character, Marinette also have flaws and did have consequences for them in s4.
I dunno… I always saw Marinette as someone who is Neurodivergent coded, ADHD specifically. It would explain a lot of her quirks and behaviors, though I highly doubt it was intentional.
I have ADHD and seeing how Marinette behaves in certain situations, regarding relationships and her overall mindset, just feels way too relatable.
I love accidentally nd characters
Sorry, but just no. And if you stalker your love interest, please call a therapist
As someone with ADHD, I have never felt like she has it.
I can understand why people might want to make the argument that she is. She has an exuberant energy that leans into impulsiveness, and her train of thought seems hyperactive (intense, rapidfire, and can quickly spiral). However, for me, it never really meaningfully portrays the downsides that offset that energy and the disorganization in her thoughts.
If they intended to imply she's ADHD then, to me, it feels like they cherrypicked a few of the traits of ADHD that are considered "quirky" or "super powered" but included none of the flaws of the disorder that makes it a disorder.
@@Gabry4777stalking isn't at all part of ADHD and that was never mentioned here. As someone with ADHD (medically diagnosed), as much as I downright HATE Marinette, I agree with this person. Not every single thing Marinette does is an ADHD thing. But things like getting distracted, forgetfulness, clumsiness, hyperfixations, these are all definitely ADHD symptoms. ADHD is different for every single person who has it, too.
I agree. Not the stalking but the almost obsessive crush is an ADHD experience too. I can't really explain but most people with adhd (including myself) that ive met really fall HARD for people and they sort of struggle to handle it, especially as teens. But again, dont stalk the guy you like please😭
Marinette is probably one of the biggest Mary sue ever
shes the mary suest mary sue in the history of mary sues
Marinette is totally Ms. Perfect her baker shops, perfect kiss for boyfriend 😒 friends half crazy 🫢 Marinette in name she Puppet Master, Marinette wants she rich, thankful she'll NOT Teacher pet 🫢