Keith Morris went to Pettibon during all this craziness and told him just that. Raymond said the logo belongs to all the members of Black Flag and he (Pettibon) wanted nothing to do with any lawsuit.
NO Clown Ginn is the impedious......I was there since the beginning....where were u at Bases Hall Riot......if u were not around since then u don't know so just STFU
I agree. I’m a Schenker, EVH guy, and I love Ginn’s style aggression. He’s seriously underrated as a guitarist. His solos are out there man. His rhythm parts are as fun to play as Iommi’s. I know the history, yet as a guitarist he’s killer. As a hardcore punk guitarist he may King.
@@AnnoyingOrange420 That’s because he IS one of the greats! He’s a one-off! Nobody plays like him, and nobody could’ve invented his style but him. I couldn’t give a rats ass about his personality, it’s the music that counts. And the music he created is friggin awesome!
Great vid. I saw the reformed Black Flag at their Sydney show in 2013 and the whole thing had a weird, unpleasant vibe to it. Ironically with Ron singing they sounded great but the bad 'only after the $' vibe soured everything
I've been on a bit of an SST nostalgia trip (thanks in part to the recent book SST Corporate Rock Still sucks and the You Don't Know Mojack podcast). Greg Ginn is at once both one of the most legendary guitarists & figures in punk rock as well as one of the biggest jerks. The Mojack podcast is two Canadian buddies going through each SST release one by one and discussing them. They have interviewed people from those bands, which has been fascinating. But one of the biggest takeaways is that SST has screwed over so many of their artists. SST hasn't done proper reissues. SST clearly hasn't paid royalties to artists. SST won't relinquish rights to long out of print albums to the bands. The label went from being the most important underground label of the 80s to a joke. A few bands have been able to wrestle back their music (Meat Puppets, for instance), but many haven't. And it's a shame, because bands like Angst deserve a proper reissue treatment. Anyhow, I saw that 2013 lineup of Black Flag and the only reason I went was that I'm acquainted with Dave Klein. Ron Reyes is right: Dave is a great dude. He's currently playing in band with Chad Price from ALL. Anyhow, Ginn had a 7 minute long theremin solo and the crowd totally checked out. Absolutely abysmal.
I cannot believe the crowd checked out during Greg Ginn's theremin solo. That is what he is known for. The Theremin, as a solo instrument. F@ck Greg Ginn
@namebrandmason That's funny; years ago I explained this to my dad as "you can see Yes-consisting of Chris Squire and four guys playing mostly new material- or Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe playing Yes's greatest hits."
Interesting video, thanks for sharing. Taking nothing away from Ginn as a guitarist and a songwriter, he has zero stage presence and the current line up shows that in full force! Without Rollins, Cadena, Morris, Stephenson and the Duke, Black Flag likely wouldn’t have been the iconic band they are today. I’m no lawyer, I’m just a fan. And having seen Flag many times since 2013, I can tell you that those guys absolutely rock. And while many may disagree, Stephen Egerton is a better and more charismatic guitarist than Ginn IMO.
Ginn was in the right. It was his songs, his band. Thats why black flag sounded great no matter who fronted the band. The band went through four different vocalists and every one of them was replacable. All of them "sold out" one way or another throughout their careers. The former members only cared about cashing in on the brand and it was easy to get fans on their side because ginn is not a likeable dude. Punk/hardcore whatever you want to call it was never meant to be like this. Reunion shows, deluxe rereleases, reliving the glory days. That was the lifestyle for the former bloated rockstars that they replaced.
The former members of Black Flag should have gotten paid royalties for song writing and albums and singles sold. Which number in the hundreds of thousands sold by SST which is owned by Greg Ginn!! So any $$ they earn as playing as Flag plus merchandise is well earned after 3 decades of getting shafted financially. If Ginn don't have 5 mil.in the bank he is the most incomp etent financial human being ever.
They still deserve royalties for what they contributed, and those songs would be worthless if no one was there to sing what he wrote. If making money in any way is selling out, then by all means everyone should be a sellout. Like Rollins said, they lived through poverty and artists deserve their dues for what they work for. Ginn alienated everyone from his band to the point even his own brother doesn't like him, despite the fact his brother is entirely responsible for the logo and visual identity of the band in the first place. It's Ray's logo, not Greg's. I don't understand your point about reunion shows, that's just rock, I fail to see what goes against the punk ethos, an ethos they were already going against since the 80s when My War dropped (and does that make Greg a sellout for his reunion then?) Flag rocked their stage harder than Greg and his sidekick have done since the reunion. Playing the songs they helped make is nothing short of justified
I respect Ginn's contribution regarding all the great music and vision he provided in the 80s. But if he believes the band he's playing in currently is "Black Flag" , then he's full of it. It's nothing but a cover band with him playing guitar in it. That being said, "FLAG" is a closer tribute band to the actual Black Flag. But in my opinion, and being a huge BF listener as a teenager in the mid-80s to present (I'm 53 now), the real Black Flag died in 1986 and never returned. What we have are two cover bands where the members are too old and are trying to pathetically re-live the great youthful angst of Black Flag, which can never be because of age. I thank Greg Ginn for making the mighty Black Flag. But at the same time, I want to kick him for the BS of using the name again, when it's not Black Flag anymore.
I agree there will never be Black Flag again, everybody knows, even Ginn. The band died back in 86, but for me their best and definitive lineup was 84-85. I'm glad it died though, we live in a politically correct, naive era, a few understood them back then, nobody would now. Even so, Ginn is entitled to do whatever he pleases with the name (and Pettibon should have the rights over their logo). We can say whatever we like, but at the end of the day, art belongs to the artists, and if you're one, you'd probably understand this.
@@H3LLE Yes of course, it's obvious that Ginn has the right to drag the Black Flag name through the manure whenever he chooses to, like he is doing now. That doesn't mean he should do it. It was his band and he owns the rights. What I am saying is as a fan, some of these musicians need to have the discernment on when to keep their treasure buried and preserved. But I will agree with you on the 1984-85 being the better lineup. Black Flag had different lineups, but the Henry, Greg, Kira, Bill lineup just did it right for me.
@@paulosicne8498 I see where you're coming from, it can be awful, but i still think nothing can tamper their legacy anyway, these guys are almost 70 (and still going! ..respect), music has changed, these are vestiges of another age that's never coming back. I still prefer seeing them on stage playing punk rock than re-recording their stuff with some famous rapper and dumb trap beats, because that's what's happening to music right now, it's dying like that. Or maybe it will born again hard. Yes it hurts us as fans but all reunions are nothing more than bands covering themselves for pension money, see them as a cover band. The real Black Flag is one of the few authentic, honest things i could find in music and that never changed for me, no matter what ol' Greg does now.
@@paulosicne8498 I agree with everything you said, yet I enjoy the current Black Flag on stage. Maybe I'm a hypocrite. Before I saw them in 2020 I said, "Ricky, it's _not_ 1984, they're old now, the magic, their prime, is gone." I've liked every Black Flag show I've been to, five in three years. I've also loved seeing FEAR, GBH, Misfits, AOD, Cro-Mags, Agnostic Front, TSOL, DRI, 7 Seconds, Circle Jerks, The Queers, Negative Approach. So many 80s bands still together & touring. I saw them in the 80s. Still they kick ass on stage. Or maybe I'm living out my youth vicariously through these concerts, even jumping in the pit at 55. Huge crowds go see them. Venues often sell out. Maybe I'm having a mid-life crisis. Maybe I'm just having fun.
I had always heard that Ginn and Pettibone had a huge falling out over the original Black Flag artwork. Along the lines of, it might not have been originally used for them, but brothers being brothers, things were borrowed and used… sibling BS. He’s an artist, pay him money and you’ll get artwork from him! He’s awesome.
Black Flag ended in 1986. This new shit lineup is just a cover band with Greg Ginn on guitar. Ginn should have left the band's name untarnished, but I and many others, don't consider these new dipshits as being Black Flag.
I got to see Ginn Flag in 2013 (or was it 14?). I'd been a fan since I was 12 of the groupm and I got into them in 1990 so you do the math lol. Anyway, to say it was a dissapointment was an understatement. Ginn just didn't sound that good, Valley was a poor clone of Rollins, and..Something just didn't seem right. Anticlimactic is the word I'd use. Later, I saw "Flag" clips on UA-cam (I'll call it "Chuck Flag") that blew Ginn Flag the fuck away 100 fold in energy and enthusiasm. I thought even Ginn's own instrumental thing before the BlacK Flag performance was better, and that's saying something. People think Pot isn't a drug, but it is, and I'm pro legalization, but the excessive use has definitely fucked up Ginn's brain, period, and his Ego is the size of the state he calls home now obviously.
I went and saw Black Flag with Ron Reyes in Des Moines in 2013. I had a good time obviously, but it was definitely not some sort of incredible performance. I wasn't quite aware beforehand that Ginn's ensemble was literally just his opening band, with Mike Vallely swapped out with Reyes. The infamous theremin made an appearance.
I was there too. I was up front by the rails right across from the speakers to the right of the pit. Ears still ringing when I woke up the next day. I regret not taking the opportunity to talk to and get a photo op with Ron. Especially considering how gregarious he was. He was happily rooming the floor and approaching attendees and introducing himself to them.
Hey Going On Record, here's an idea for a subject you might want to cover, that being the interrelationship between the current incarnations of Big Country and The Skids, which just happen to share guitarists with the father/son duo of Bruce and Jamie Watson; just thought I'd put it out for your perusal.....
To me, it’s obvious Greg Ginn has something wrong with him. It comes off like an intense mental health problem. And it’s shown no signs of improvement. Hopefully, he can see the light someday, but in mine and probably all of our opinions, Flag is excellent.
this is one of the reasons i love living in california... i got to see FLAG at the GV3O show by pure luck. a friend couldnt go, gave me the tix and 20 minutes later as i was looking for a ride... another friend called me freaking out seeing on facebook about flag playing at the GV30. we drove down, got in and the greatest 8 minutes of my punk life happened, then again later at PRB... but thats a different story
i just saw "black flag" for the first time recently in chicago and I wasn't aware of too much of this beforehand. The music didn't really sound bad to me, but regardless, i immediately could tell the turnout was noticeably bad, the energy of the band nor the crowd ever picked up, and i was out of there well before the end of the set.
Rare opinion here: the music on What The is actually pretty great. It's got a horrendously bad cover and a weird mix - the drums and to a lesser degree vocals drowned out by Greg's guitar and bass. But there's worse drum mixes on loads of classic punk albums. The guitars and bass are vicious and Ron's vocals suit them well. I suspect if the album had a Raymond Pettibone cover, it would be widely acclaimed as a challenging return to form. Too bad Greg seems to have screwed and alienated so many collaborators in Black Flag and SST 'cause he's a ground-breaking genius whose positive influence on punk and DIY rock can't really be overstated.
I saw both within a few weeks of each other in 2013. Flag had several openers, and then these (let’s face it) old men came out and wiped the floor with them in the best way. Every note, every vocal, every drum beat PUNCHED with ferocity and energy that belied their age. I walked out of the Troc in Philly that night sore, raspy, drenched in sweat, and the happiest guy. Several weeks later, the ORIGINAL Black Flag (as all of the advertising said) came through the Union Transfer, also in Philly. I think there might have been an opener or two, but then Ginn’s other band Good For You got up there and played a 90 minute set. It was terrible. Boring, whiny stuff I’ve heard from a million bands. If it weren’t for a punk rock legend being in the band, they wouldn’t have graduated from busking on the sidewalk. After that, they (including Mike V, who was not on stage) took a long break between sets to walk around the crowd, saying hello to everyone and fishing for compliments for that pablum, taking selfies and signing autographs. I had my chance to meet and shake hands with him and I passed it up because I HATED that set. I’ve met Henry, Keith, Bill, Chuck, Dez (a number of times), and Robo, and I would have jumped at the opportunity before that set to meet Greg. After all, Black Flag is one of my favorite bands. After an interminable amount of time, the same band came out, with Chavo, and they went into a half-hearted, slowed down rehearsal version of some classic Black Flag songs. Chavo gave it his ALL, interacting with the fans, singing his heart out, while Greg couldn’t be bothered. It’s like he didn’t want to be there. I was so disgusted and annoyed that when they went into the closer, Louie Louie, I leftie leftie. The only two good things about the whole experience was seeing Chavo, and shirts were only $10. Flag, and a decade earlier Rollins Band doing BF songs, were closer to the Black Flag experience than Ginn’s. Honestly, Greg, if you don’t want to play Black Flag, then fucking don’t.
I actually met Ginn at his Good for You gig in Iowa City two months before I saw his 'Black Flag' in Des Moines. Had a photo taken with him, and I actually also said hi to him at the Des Moines show. I didn't quite realize how out of his dat gum mind he seems to be, especially after reading what Ron and his ex wife said about him. It's all obviously a shame since Ginn has always the sonic architect of Black Flag, for better or for worse, and an influence on my own guitar playing at times.
The current, 2023 Black Flag is, to me, enjoyable on stage, but nowhere as good as Rollins in the 80s. I do like Mike Vallely, and watching Greg Ginn I can tell he can play well, but Mike is the most life on the stage. He's my least favorite BF vocalist, but he's still good, especially passion & screaming on "Nothing Left Inside." I've seen them 5 times in 3 years, every show sold out, so they must be doing _something_ right.
I hated Rollins black flag. I saw them once with him and never went again. I liked Dez but after him it should have been over. Don’t get me wrong, Rollins is good at being Rollins. I just think he shouldn’t have been in black flag. Not to mention, Greg went nuts around that time
I will admit the most recent flag record sounds strange and far from anything they did before but I personally enjoyed a somewhat return to hardcore punk the album offered
F@CK henry....Kieth...Chavo...n Dez rule...henry just got lucky that he jumped on board..... most of u didnt even know that henry wasnt their first vocalist.....
Greg once decided to storm down the hallway of the SST house and just steal Raymond's artwork from his room, said "These are mine," and kicked him out. There's a great video somewhere that opens with Pettibon painting the bars on a wall in his studio and saying, "My name is Raymond Pettibon and I came up with this fucking thing."
Keith mentioned in my damage that when they tried to put together a reunion show he was about it. But ginn said the sun's were recorded too fast and they need to slow the tracks down
oh c'mon, of course it is. the graphic design and color scheme are nice but that stupid joke photoshoot was such a tragic undersell of one of the most beautiful sequences of music ever assembled. it's like the name "the beatles," it works because you associate it with all the incredible stuff they made...but on its own merits it's almost offensively lame
1:53 he was never actually called "chavo pederast" by anyone, Greg spitefully listed that as his credited name on the last record he played on. You do know what pederast means, right?!
Saw the new version twice. Once with Ron and once with Mike. Cool to see Ron but the drummer was trash. The time with Mike was absolutely dull. Better drummer that time though, which didn't save it. Saw Flag 4 times and it was awesome every time start to finish. The band was on fire and both Keith and Dez sang great. Had a blast and the crowds went mental.
I saw Black Flag in 2013 with Good For You opening up (Mike V's band)...I was impressed with Black Flag until Greg brought out a theremin...I didn't get it..but whatever...I didn't think much of Mike V's band..and now that he's the singer for BF....I think he's trying to channel Henry Rollins and not doing a good job.
i went to that FLAG tour. i think mostly what the lawsuit REALLY accomplished was 3 things: 1) Greg's ego will have him drunkenly screaming "I AM BLACK FLAG"....but everyone around him can say "legally no. you're not" before walking away leaving a pathetic broken mess of a man. real A Star Is Born shit. 2) FLAG will NEVER be more than a tribute band of just friends playing music together. sure they will draw a crowd at shows for quality, comradery, and authenticity...however it stops there. 3) a hard line was officially drawn in a public space between Greg (Black Flag) and literally everyone else who have their own projects. Keith starts every show a similar way he famously did in Decline Of Western Civilization. he states very clearly where the legal line is. oh, btw, Mike V has been one of the biggest professional skaters since the 80's. he was also in both The Hangover and he was one of the bad guys in Paul Blart: Mall Cop. summing up a career as a massively successful professional skater, and a movie star, down to JUST "idk, i guess he was in a Tony Hawk game or something" is a bit reductive. maybe for the Black Flag part of his life he's not a dude with much favor or integrity to pull which bums out a lot of people...but the dude has been around the alternative and punk/hardcore scene since before i was even born! i remember seeing his shitty thrash band Mike V and the Rats and then later in the day shred the half pipe on the Warped Tour back in the day. regardless of the Black Flag bullshit, or the fact that he's trying too hard to be Henry lite...but he will ALWAYS have my respect.
The “Flag” reunion project was amazing. The Black Flag band that was around at the same time was not that good. I think the singer is a pro skater. I regret not seeing “Flag” with Keith Morris singing!!
Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed Black Flag in 83 and 84 when they changed my life & got me into punk rock. I also thoroughly enjoyed Black Flag in 2019 at the sold out shows in Austin and Dallas. They were incredible, all the bullshit, personal, legal stuff aside, which I don't give a fuck about. What it comes down to, for me, is the song. Hearing/seeing Ginn and Mike & the others performing these songs I love...to perfection...was beyond surreal, magnificent, and spectacular. The band was MUCH better live than the videos I'd seen. They played nothing from "What The," which actually has a few songs I like, though they're too long. And the cover does suck.
Even old, these musicians are still SO GOOD in 2023! Keith Morris, Greg Ginn, Kira Roessler, Raymond Pettibon, Chuck Dukowski, Henry Rollins, Dez Cadena, Chuck Biscuits, Ron Reyes, Mike Vallely. All bury their hatchets to make punk rock history. Forget all the past bullshit for "The Real and Original Black Flag" tour! Misfits did it, and it was/is EPIC! Vocalists taking turns, or doing a song with each taking part of it, handing the mic to the next, ending with the best, Keith Morris! Keith would _have_ to sing My War every night. Rollins must wear only black short shorts. They could all get rich and retire. This would sell out everywhere, it'd be amazing! Damn I can dream!
Exactly man I like the focus on the music too. What is going on behind the scenes... we don't know the details. But if anyone has ever been in a band they will know not every member puts in the same amount of effort. I understand the romantic vision of being in a band and everyone doing it as a collective thing but mostly it is just one or two members doing all the heavy lifting and the rest just going for a ride..
Im 64. I hate most of the people that i loved when i was growing up. These are all people, and they are all artists - this automatically makes them mostly all egomaniacs and monsters. Love the music - pay no mind to the people! Years before Black Flag was my favorite band, Black Sabbath was at the top of the list. I loved Ozzy until i heard all the evil things that Sharon and Ozzy did to so many others. And then that monster of a daughter came on the scene, and oh boy - i hate that whole family. I've heard so many sad stories about how horrible Gregg Ginn is.
I dunno, am I wrong, but as a huge Black Flag fan back in the early 80's I've not to this day been slightly interested in hearing Greg Ginn's new version. I saw a little live footage, I think, but have never been interested in hearing the album. Maybe I should check it out? But seeing Flag had formed, and then seeing their video from the Moose Lodge, etc., I was totally into that and would love to see them. Also OFF! do it really well and I'd love to see them (I was dubious at first). It's about having that really kick-loose, edgy vibe, somehow I just knew that Ginn had lost it years ago. Not that that means his music has no place, but it's not for me, and not what Black Flag was back then. Already when they split in the 80's they'd probably drifted into something far too controlled to be essential to me, though I kept on listening, but now... But Flag, and OFF!, they somehow have kept that core freedom and no bullshit that was at the core of it.
This is just like Cro-Mags vs Cro-MagsJM.... it's all so petty and just pathetic. It boils down to a sense pride and an unwillingness to shift in stance over the past. It's not the first, and certainly wont be the last time a great band has a great feud fueled by ego's, backstabbing and resentment.
I might have been able to accept Mike V. as the vocalist of a later-day version of Black Flag. I mean, why not? But he disqualified himself permanently with his stunt in Australia, "firing" Ron Reyes onstage in the middle of a live show. There is no previous singer of Black Flag who would have EVER done something like that to another singer from Black Flag. There is too much mutual respect. It's a brotherhood, and Mike V. will never be part of that. He's the singer in a Black Flag cover band.
I love Black Flag, they changed my life back in '85 when I first heard them (then they broke up😂). I've seen each tour since the restart and the 2013 gig was one of the weirdest shows I've ever seen. I think Reyes was out a few days later. I will say, as a noise rocker, there was something perverse about it that I really enjoyed. The latest iterations have been great, provides you like Greg's corroded guitar style (at 70, he really doesn't care if he just makes some noise on e and a while). That said, Greg is a creep who could have been one of the heroes of the movement but he ruined it. (Side note: neither of those kids in the rhythm section are still with the band, their drummer on these 2023/24 My War gigs may be the best they've had since Stevenson)
I saw most incarnations of the reunions, i personally liked them all for different reasons, mainly, merting my idols and asking questions most interviewers don't, and they liked my questions, which will one day be repeated in print fir my zine ince I am ready. I did miss ROLLINS/GARFIELD's version in ROLLINS BAND doing a set too, before HENRY retired from playing for good. I dig on GOOD FOR YOU, GINN AND VALLELY's band together, mainly for "KNIFE TO THE FACE" I think it is, might go play it just to remind myself to edit if wrong. I dig RON REYES singing, and saw them at REGGIE'S Shitcago. RON was very nice and personable, signed a few choice LPs, and i bought most of their catalog reissues for only $10. Saw them year later with BRANDON PERTZBORN and TYLER SMITH on BRANDON'S 19TH birthday, ge was technically still 18 when he played, turning 19 at midnight, during their set, and they managed to know the time and had a brief birthday song celebration. They signed my albums, except TYLER SMITH, tho he signed my PUNK NEVER DIES! Shirt, GREG GINN bring first to do so, as a challenge to my mother to make it a "cool shirt" in its torn and ratty ass dress shirt, as both my mother called it, and MIKE VALLELY echoing her sentiment. I had to talk him into it, and you could barely read it cuz my Sharpie was used by everyone else in the BrauerHouse in Lombard, so much so, singer of VIRGIN WHORES signed over it. MIKE resigned it in its four year exactly to the date retired state, at a double set show again at REGGIE'S Shitcago, where I made a handshake dral to do licensed merch ising a 3D printer that I am still trying to figure out how to complete, as I also have one with BLAG doing DWARVES. I was allowed to record the double set, but the first set i was to close to JOE and his bass wreaked havoc on my devices, plus REGGIE'S security said i couldn't setup without permission, and I told them i was friends to a distant point with them, and they should ask since i do it for free and give copies to the band at next show I catch them. MIKE VALLELY abd GREG GINN agreed, but fans by me heard this all go down, and yelled into my recorders all night, ruining the revordings worse than they already were. I set up center stage for 2nd set, got pummeled for it, but worth it, as they were tighter, and I was in the sweet spot, so you can actually hear GINN on lead guitar, and bass not overbearing. I later gave MIKE those recordings at a St. Bernard show, MO, at Diamond Billiards and Music Hall. Soundcheck was great, but soundguy added reverb to vox, left for half the set, and man, was MIKE VALLELY Livid about it, but once that was turned off, sounded great. I am planning on recording them next year for the MY WAR LP entirety set, and hopefully have a laptop to transfer files instantly so he then has everything. They have been extremely kind to me, each time, and signed all three of my PUNK NEVER DIES!-!!! Shirts. FLAG: Saw them at RiptOffFest Shitcago, great, epic. Best thing i ever saw that night, hands down, unless same night i saw IGGY AND THE STOOGES reunion, which think was following night, and barely able to keep my right show a guy stepped on and it completely came off, and I managed to find it again using my socked foot, shoved it in halfway, and planted myself, til that insanity was over, but that's a whole other story in itself. Saw FLAG three times later, at PRB when I saw JELLO sing with THE EXPLOITED, who then allowed whomever on stage to sing "Sex And Violence" so I asked security if i could get up there too, and was allowed. I sang half with the crowd and band, but took the opportunity to visit with JELLO BIAFRA, and asked him to sign it, to which he wanted the whole backstory first, how all these signatures were on it, who started it all for me, and why, while he said he was thinking of what to write. He helped give my book it better title, "PUNK NEVER DIES!...But It Should, So It Can Be Reborn"-JELLO BIAFRA. Since he loved that it all started with GREG GINN, he asked if I wanted to get introduced to CHUCK DUKOWSKI, whom was backstage to the right. Yes, please and thank YOU. Bam, I was introduced, CHUCK looked mad to be asked, and wrote huge, across the middle and over least 20 signatures, CHUCK DUKOWSKI. He was the only one around, rest were on other side, and they didn't wait kong to play, so i left to go watch it, as security didn't want me back there, and JELLO disappeared after the introduction. 2nd time, same tour, in a way, FUBAR ST LOUIS, they hung out afterwards, DEZ CADENA even gave us all press pack picture of him from his days as singer, signed it for all of us who stuck around, and invited me back to meet the rest. They all told me their stories of how they all had beaten Death in their own ways, BILL STEVENSON showed me hos brain surgery scar to remove a huge tumor they said should have killed him. I asked CHUCK DUKOWSKI if he was always their original bassist, wnd he said yes, cuz GINN said he would bury the hatchet if I could find him his original bassist, whom was not CHUCK, nor his brother RAYMOND. I later learned from KEITH MORRIS that he must have been referring to SPOT, or possibly KANSAS, as KEITH calls him, but this only really pisses CHUCK off, and he said he would play a festival for me, but not if GINN was also going to be playing, chose a side. I chose FLAG, but my entire budget was what their agent asked for, also being $10k higher than they got to play for PRB, and this was to be my first ever ILL ANNOY U, C FEST, and my venue blew off an already booked gig BONEYARD ARTS FESTIVAL who paid them, so the guy who promised me the dates for my festival was fired, and the venue tried becoming a BLUES BBQ restaurant and bar venue, and folded within 5 months. Met FLAG again after seeing CHUCK on the street buting humself his new red hat he often still wears, and we hung out again afterwards. FLAG was way better intensity and representation of the original songs, 4/5 were original members, and seeing how MIKE VALLELY tries to sing like ROLLINS era BF, I kinda saw and met every version, without knowing ROLLINS BAND was touring in 2014 doing hos own second small set of his favorite tracks, or would be able to say I truly saw every version. I didn't meet DAVE KLEIN or the bassist used in 2013, REGGIE'S kicked everyone out shortly after they started coming out. I hadn't started my shirt yet, so RON REYES signed only a few LPs and my "Wasted...Again" CD and original "IN MY HEAD" LP. I am now friends with KIRA, talk to RAYMOND PETTIBON, who said he might do an album cover for me, but I will just have to wait and see if fortune continues to shine on my broke ass punk shitass. I love BLACK FLAG, "THE FIRST FOUR YEARS E.P." was my introduction, and my mother hated the CD being played on repeat so much, she threatened to break it, but I explained it belonged to SLOTH, a friend of mine she hated yet feared, and when i said if she broke it, I would have to explain why I can't retirn it to him, tho he was trying to sell it to me, and I bought it without her knowing, abd that before he killed me for it, I was going to insist he kill my mother first and let me watch. She was reluctant to break it, kinda gave me a further distance from that day forward, tho then took to confiscate any punk rock and metal shirts, badges, and albums and claimed to theow them away, but I knew her stash spots under her bed, in her sewing machine, wardrobe in basement, and reclaimed most. I safety pinned a METALLICA T-shirt she ripped in half, then she found it in my drawer, tore it into one inch or smaller pieces, and left it with a note, Try safery pinning it back together now, you Disrespectful Little Shit, her nickname for me. She is Princess Petty Debbie, and I call myself a SonOfACunt in front of her when I wrote myself outta any will by doubling down to say I am not proud to be an offspring of her White Privileged Racist Cunt and my rapist father, when they tried evicting me during the Pandemic for coming out as bisexual. We will soon have our own day in court. MISFITS are another lawsuit band, and i always felt JERRY should have called his version, THE ONLY MISFITS, cuz he is the only really nice one out of the "OG Misfits" and GD sent ne three C&D letters, and refused to pay or help my buddy JOEY IMAGE with his liver dialysis treatments, then sold a signed HORROR BUSINESS immediately following his Death thru AtomAge for $2K, and a bunch of other super rare shit, and posted the numbers officially of the rarities of each release, ballooning their marketvalue where "She/Cough Cool" 7" on Blank now sells for $10,600+. I lost more respect when he made me remove a Friends of Joey Image Fakebook group invite post in 7th House, saying it didn't belong? JOEY drummed on most of my favorite tracks, so I might soon sell off my records and buy represses once I move to Oregon so no state taxes go to ILL ANNOY IRS, who put me outta both my businesses over $323 after paid them $100 and applied for a hardship when both my vehicles were declared total losses 5 days apart, Prius caught hybrid battey on fire with me in it in my driveway, I next day got a letter from hospital stating my ribcage was entirely fractured from multuple falls on deliveries in concrete jungle for GRUB HUB, DOORDASH, & UBEREATS, and another likely would kill me if landed on my back again. Only worked and earned $45 this year working VD!
just saw Greg's Black Flag last night with the Dickies and tsol his version of Black Flag needs to stop right now people start leaving after the third song so slow weak and lackluster
I have a Black Flag tat!!! Did it myself with a homemade gun from a cassette player! I LOVE THE BAND!!!! Greg Ginn though!? Just like his choice on that LP cover!? He ruined the band with his stupid choices. He is a jerk and has been the BIG REASON why there'll NEVER be a rad reunion show of BLACK FLAG! hes a shady sheister!
Here's the thing...punk rock is, by definition, for young people. It should not be for old and fat fucks. Old and fat fucks can still make music, but they need to make new music that reflects their current circumstances. Playing the hits from 1980 is total bullshit. I fucking hate it. If you saw Black Flag beyond 1986, you were wasting your time. It was over, done, and thus is as it should be. Nothing lasts forever except old people looking to reclaim old glory due to bad money management. Look at John Doe in 2022. The man has a folk trio and is putting out beautiful new and original music. Is he touring with X? Yes, but even X put out an album very recently and created GOOD new music. They can be proud of that.
But the fact it sucked is a cool story in itself. Reunions tend to be disasters with pink and HC, but acknowledging the downfall can be fun in its own right.
You have to be talking about GINNS BLACK FLAG. FLAG was amazing. After hearing the new Black Flag stuff, had no desire to see it live. If someone gave me a ticket or got on the guest list, then I would've gone. No way was I dumping 30 bucks to hear that shit.
Ginns’ Solo Stuff Is Really Underrated & Great, the Heart/Brain of Black Flag. That Being Said, He Fucked Up By Letting the Logos & Trademarks Go By the Wayside.
Black Flag was great. In the beginning. Keith/Ron/Dez shows were electric. When Henry joined, it was never the same. If you only saw Black Flag after the early to mid 80’s, you saw crap. Better bands took over the SoCal scene at that point. And this modern-day flag is a total f’ing joke. They all suck.
Both versions are a fucking joke regardless. Greg's new one is spinal tap 2.0, and Flag were great sounding... but ffs I hate reformed- reunions etc etc...just a cash cow
Kieth Morristhe original singer who left & stsrted Yhe Circle Jerks snd Rolllins took over as the singer now kieth is with OFF he us a LEGEND of Punk IMO seems way cool but I have not met him. Wish I knew Dan Root played with him maybe I could have met him then, Dan played my Friday night a few times with Oe Hit Wonder from Long Beach we were not close but friendsit would have been a great oart of my life to meet him likethe night I MET lemmyKILMISTER AND SPOKE WITH H=HIM FOR AB HOUR LIKE FRIENDS AT A TOPLESS BAR i sugested backstage tohis request for someplace near there going on better than thi! i WILL NOT FOGET HIM SAYING TO ME i WAS SMART IT WAS VERY NICE TALKING TO SOMEONE LIKE ME WHO KNOWS WHAT IS REALY GOING ON rip lEMMY kILMISTER/iAN fRASER/NICKNAMED gOD FORA GOOD REASON hE LOVED HIS FANS AND PLAYED TILL THE END FOR KEEPING HIM DOING WHAT HE LIKED MAKING AND PERFORMING KUSIC WITH mOTORHEAD! hE WAS HAPPY TO HEAR ME SAY i THOGHT mOTORHEAD HAD A GOODD pUNK OCK SOUND TOO hE SAID hE LIKES TO PLAY HIS WAY AND THAT IS WHAT pUNK rOCK IS ALL ABOUT! HE WAS SMRT & A GOOD mORALED MAN i DO BELIEVE IS IN THE BETTER PLACE AND WILL BE HEARD FOR S LONG AS i CAN IMAGINE LONG LIVE ALRMMYS MUSIC AND THE WAY HE WAS! i SUSPECT kEITH WOULD BE A SIMILAR GREAT EXPERIENCE MEETING HIM!
Raymond Pettibon should have the rights to the logo, he designed the damn thing. Let's just have a Black Flag reunion with everyone besides Ginn.
Keith Morris went to Pettibon during all this craziness and told him just that. Raymond said the logo belongs to all the members of Black Flag and he (Pettibon) wanted nothing to do with any lawsuit.
FLAG is the band you want.
Ray ain't an asshole like those other guys.
@@robertgale3383 this. They fucking destroy live too.
NO Clown Ginn is the impedious......I was there since the beginning....where were u at Bases Hall Riot......if u were not around since then u don't know so just STFU
Flag was fkn insane, I got to see Keith and Dez sing in the same night nothing will ever compare to that
Fuckin A. Exactly
I saw the Black Flag reunion with Ron Reyes, and I saw Flag! FLAG MOPPED THE FLOOR WITH BLACK FLAG! No wonder Greg Ginn was pissed!
Ginns solos and fills are insane. Dude can fly on that thing; very accurately. He could have been one of the greats if he had given a shit .
It seems like Ginn thought/thinks he already is one of the greats
I agree. I’m a Schenker, EVH guy, and I love Ginn’s style aggression. He’s seriously underrated as a guitarist. His solos are out there man. His rhythm parts are as fun to play as Iommi’s. I know the history, yet as a guitarist he’s killer. As a hardcore punk guitarist he may King.
He kinda is a great though?
@@gab2876 Oh, absolutely. Just isn't as well known as he should be. His playing was so good.
@@AnnoyingOrange420 That’s because he IS one of the greats! He’s a one-off! Nobody plays like him, and nobody could’ve invented his style but him. I couldn’t give a rats ass about his personality, it’s the music that counts.
And the music he created is friggin awesome!
Great vid. I saw the reformed Black Flag at their Sydney show in 2013 and the whole thing had a weird, unpleasant vibe to it. Ironically with Ron singing they sounded great but the bad 'only after the $' vibe soured everything
That My War video of FLAG at the Moose Lodge, I was there, 9 years ago yesterday. It was one of the greatest nights of my life.
I always thought flag should’ve went by a different name maybe panic like their original name before black flag
Yeah that would’ve been cool
In the my damage book Keith talked about the original panic had copyright on the name. They might still hold it
Black flag over panic any day 👍
Ulrich and ginn should start a band
“The lawsuiters”
Maybe gene simmons on bass
I've been on a bit of an SST nostalgia trip (thanks in part to the recent book SST Corporate Rock Still sucks and the You Don't Know Mojack podcast). Greg Ginn is at once both one of the most legendary guitarists & figures in punk rock as well as one of the biggest jerks. The Mojack podcast is two Canadian buddies going through each SST release one by one and discussing them. They have interviewed people from those bands, which has been fascinating. But one of the biggest takeaways is that SST has screwed over so many of their artists. SST hasn't done proper reissues. SST clearly hasn't paid royalties to artists. SST won't relinquish rights to long out of print albums to the bands. The label went from being the most important underground label of the 80s to a joke. A few bands have been able to wrestle back their music (Meat Puppets, for instance), but many haven't. And it's a shame, because bands like Angst deserve a proper reissue treatment.
Anyhow, I saw that 2013 lineup of Black Flag and the only reason I went was that I'm acquainted with Dave Klein. Ron Reyes is right: Dave is a great dude. He's currently playing in band with Chad Price from ALL. Anyhow, Ginn had a 7 minute long theremin solo and the crowd totally checked out. Absolutely abysmal.
I cannot believe the crowd checked out during Greg Ginn's theremin solo.
That is what he is known for.
The Theremin, as a solo instrument.
F@ck Greg Ginn
Never anything worse in this world than members of once great punk bands suing each other...
Stabbing and biting each other? And suing each other (cromags)
Nothing is less punk rock than that to me
I thought this was made by a much larger channel, this is great you deserve more subs!!!
two different versions of the band Yes, in the eighties as well. Which is fascinating, since they did an album TOGETHER called "Union".
@namebrandmason That's funny; years ago I explained this to my dad as "you can see Yes-consisting of Chris Squire and four guys playing mostly new material- or Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman & Howe playing Yes's greatest hits."
“He has previously drummed for Macy Gray and David Lee Roth”
Doesn’t get more punk than that.
Thank you for mentioning Pet Sounds, nothing compares to the brilliance of Brian Wilson.
Beach boys are literally one of my favorite bands ever, I was really into them when I was editing this video
Interesting video, thanks for sharing. Taking nothing away from Ginn as a guitarist and a songwriter, he has zero stage presence and the current line up shows that in full force! Without Rollins, Cadena, Morris, Stephenson and the Duke, Black Flag likely wouldn’t have been the iconic band they are today. I’m no lawyer, I’m just a fan. And having seen Flag many times since 2013, I can tell you that those guys absolutely rock. And while many may disagree, Stephen Egerton is a better and more charismatic guitarist than Ginn IMO.
FLAG is Black Flag. This Black Flag of 2022-23 is not Black Flag it's the Greg Ginn band 😂
The Greg Ginn Experience
@@AnnoyingOrange420 El Crap Experience lol
100% Agree 💯💯💯💯💯
Exactly
Ginn was in the right. It was his songs, his band. Thats why black flag sounded great no matter who fronted the band. The band went through four different vocalists and every one of them was replacable. All of them "sold out" one way or another throughout their careers. The former members only cared about cashing in on the brand and it was easy to get fans on their side because ginn is not a likeable dude. Punk/hardcore whatever you want to call it was never meant to be like this. Reunion shows, deluxe rereleases, reliving the glory days. That was the lifestyle for the former bloated rockstars that they replaced.
Rock n roll is a lie.
These lawsuits prove it.
The former members of Black Flag should have gotten paid royalties for song writing and albums and singles sold. Which number in the hundreds of thousands sold by SST which is owned by Greg Ginn!! So any $$ they earn as playing as Flag plus merchandise is well earned after 3 decades of getting shafted financially. If Ginn don't have 5 mil.in the bank he is the most incomp etent financial human being ever.
What a gatekeeper comment. In the words of Joe Carducci (though Karl Alvarez), they took an oath to ROCK, not poverty.
They still deserve royalties for what they contributed, and those songs would be worthless if no one was there to sing what he wrote. If making money in any way is selling out, then by all means everyone should be a sellout. Like Rollins said, they lived through poverty and artists deserve their dues for what they work for. Ginn alienated everyone from his band to the point even his own brother doesn't like him, despite the fact his brother is entirely responsible for the logo and visual identity of the band in the first place. It's Ray's logo, not Greg's. I don't understand your point about reunion shows, that's just rock, I fail to see what goes against the punk ethos, an ethos they were already going against since the 80s when My War dropped (and does that make Greg a sellout for his reunion then?) Flag rocked their stage harder than Greg and his sidekick have done since the reunion. Playing the songs they helped make is nothing short of justified
KEITH MORRIS DESERVES MORE CREDIT & RESPECT.He gets it hugely from those of us who Know. But the man is the MAN.🌹
I respect Ginn's contribution regarding all the great music and vision he provided in the 80s. But if he believes the band he's playing in currently is "Black Flag" , then he's full of it. It's nothing but a cover band with him playing guitar in it. That being said, "FLAG" is a closer tribute band to the actual Black Flag. But in my opinion, and being a huge BF listener as a teenager in the mid-80s to present (I'm 53 now), the real Black Flag died in 1986 and never returned. What we have are two cover bands where the members are too old and are trying to pathetically re-live the great youthful angst of Black Flag, which can never be because of age. I thank Greg Ginn for making the mighty Black Flag. But at the same time, I want to kick him for the BS of using the name again, when it's not Black Flag anymore.
I agree there will never be Black Flag again, everybody knows, even Ginn. The band died back in 86, but for me their best and definitive lineup was 84-85. I'm glad it died though, we live in a politically correct, naive era, a few understood them back then, nobody would now. Even so, Ginn is entitled to do whatever he pleases with the name (and Pettibon should have the rights over their logo). We can say whatever we like, but at the end of the day, art belongs to the artists, and if you're one, you'd probably understand this.
@@H3LLE Yes of course, it's obvious that Ginn has the right to drag the Black Flag name through the manure whenever he chooses to, like he is doing now. That doesn't mean he should do it. It was his band and he owns the rights. What I am saying is as a fan, some of these musicians need to have the discernment on when to keep their treasure buried and preserved. But I will agree with you on the 1984-85 being the better lineup. Black Flag had different lineups, but the Henry, Greg, Kira, Bill lineup just did it right for me.
@@paulosicne8498 I see where you're coming from, it can be awful, but i still think nothing can tamper their legacy anyway, these guys are almost 70 (and still going! ..respect), music has changed, these are vestiges of another age that's never coming back. I still prefer seeing them on stage playing punk rock than re-recording their stuff with some famous rapper and dumb trap beats, because that's what's happening to music right now, it's dying like that. Or maybe it will born again hard. Yes it hurts us as fans but all reunions are nothing more than bands covering themselves for pension money, see them as a cover band. The real Black Flag is one of the few authentic, honest things i could find in music and that never changed for me, no matter what ol' Greg does now.
@@paulosicne8498 I agree with everything you said, yet I enjoy the current Black Flag on stage. Maybe I'm a hypocrite. Before I saw them in 2020 I said, "Ricky, it's _not_ 1984, they're old now, the magic, their prime, is gone." I've liked every Black Flag show I've been to, five in three years. I've also loved seeing FEAR, GBH, Misfits, AOD, Cro-Mags, Agnostic Front, TSOL, DRI, 7 Seconds, Circle Jerks, The Queers, Negative Approach. So many 80s bands still together & touring. I saw them in the 80s. Still they kick ass on stage. Or maybe I'm living out my youth vicariously through these concerts, even jumping in the pit at 55. Huge crowds go see them. Venues often sell out. Maybe I'm having a mid-life crisis. Maybe I'm just having fun.
I had always heard that Ginn and Pettibone had a huge falling out over the original Black Flag artwork. Along the lines of, it might not have been originally used for them, but brothers being brothers, things were borrowed and used… sibling BS. He’s an artist, pay him money and you’ll get artwork from him! He’s awesome.
Whos got the 10 and a half is an amazing live record
Black Flag ended in 1986. This new shit lineup is just a cover band with Greg Ginn on guitar. Ginn should have left the band's name untarnished, but I and many others, don't consider these new dipshits as being Black Flag.
Yeah it’s kind of embarrassing
please keep making vids they're really good
This sounds nuttier then when the Dead Kennedys got back together.
I got to see Ginn Flag in 2013 (or was it 14?). I'd been a fan since I was 12 of the groupm and I got into them in 1990 so you do the math lol. Anyway, to say it was a dissapointment was an understatement. Ginn just didn't sound that good, Valley was a poor clone of Rollins, and..Something just didn't seem right. Anticlimactic is the word I'd use. Later, I saw "Flag" clips on UA-cam (I'll call it "Chuck Flag") that blew Ginn Flag the fuck away 100 fold in energy and enthusiasm. I thought even Ginn's own instrumental thing before the BlacK Flag performance was better, and that's saying something. People think Pot isn't a drug, but it is, and I'm pro legalization, but the excessive use has definitely fucked up Ginn's brain, period, and his Ego is the size of the state he calls home now obviously.
I had about the same experience with both iterations as well.
I went and saw Black Flag with Ron Reyes in Des Moines in 2013. I had a good time obviously, but it was definitely not some sort of incredible performance. I wasn't quite aware beforehand that Ginn's ensemble was literally just his opening band, with Mike Vallely swapped out with Reyes. The infamous theremin made an appearance.
I was there too. I was up front by the rails right across from the speakers to the right of the pit. Ears still ringing when I woke up the next day. I regret not taking the opportunity to talk to and get a photo op with Ron. Especially considering how gregarious he was. He was happily rooming the floor and approaching attendees and introducing himself to them.
Nice work man! I enjoyed your video!
i found it amusing that black flag and off! are both names of bug repellant...
Every band that has ever been on SST should sue Ginn for never getting paid any royalties 😆
Why do you keep dropping the end of "Mike's" name?!
Hey Going On Record, here's an idea for a subject you might want to cover, that being the interrelationship between the current incarnations of Big Country and The Skids, which just happen to share guitarists with the father/son duo of Bruce and Jamie Watson; just thought I'd put it out for your perusal.....
To me, it’s obvious Greg Ginn has something wrong with him. It comes off like an intense mental health problem. And it’s shown no signs of improvement. Hopefully, he can see the light someday, but in mine and probably all of our opinions, Flag is excellent.
this is one of the reasons i love living in california... i got to see FLAG at the GV3O show by pure luck. a friend couldnt go, gave me the tix and 20 minutes later as i was looking for a ride... another friend called me freaking out seeing on facebook about flag playing at the GV30. we drove down, got in and the greatest 8 minutes of my punk life happened, then again later at PRB... but thats a different story
Black flag my first love discovered them when i bought the decline of western civilization cassette and my first record was jealous again
My first cassette was jealous again. Changed my life.
i just saw "black flag" for the first time recently in chicago and I wasn't aware of too much of this beforehand. The music didn't really sound bad to me, but regardless, i immediately could tell the turnout was noticeably bad, the energy of the band nor the crowd ever picked up, and i was out of there well before the end of the set.
Rare opinion here: the music on What The is actually pretty great. It's got a horrendously bad cover and a weird mix - the drums and to a lesser degree vocals drowned out by Greg's guitar and bass. But there's worse drum mixes on loads of classic punk albums. The guitars and bass are vicious and Ron's vocals suit them well. I suspect if the album had a Raymond Pettibone cover, it would be widely acclaimed as a challenging return to form.
Too bad Greg seems to have screwed and alienated so many collaborators in Black Flag and SST 'cause he's a ground-breaking genius whose positive influence on punk and DIY rock can't really be overstated.
I saw both within a few weeks of each other in 2013. Flag had several openers, and then these (let’s face it) old men came out and wiped the floor with them in the best way. Every note, every vocal, every drum beat PUNCHED with ferocity and energy that belied their age. I walked out of the Troc in Philly that night sore, raspy, drenched in sweat, and the happiest guy. Several weeks later, the ORIGINAL Black Flag (as all of the advertising said) came through the Union Transfer, also in Philly. I think there might have been an opener or two, but then Ginn’s other band Good For You got up there and played a 90 minute set. It was terrible. Boring, whiny stuff I’ve heard from a million bands. If it weren’t for a punk rock legend being in the band, they wouldn’t have graduated from busking on the sidewalk. After that, they (including Mike V, who was not on stage) took a long break between sets to walk around the crowd, saying hello to everyone and fishing for compliments for that pablum, taking selfies and signing autographs. I had my chance to meet and shake hands with him and I passed it up because I HATED that set. I’ve met Henry, Keith, Bill, Chuck, Dez (a number of times), and Robo, and I would have jumped at the opportunity before that set to meet Greg. After all, Black Flag is one of my favorite bands. After an interminable amount of time, the same band came out, with Chavo, and they went into a half-hearted, slowed down rehearsal version of some classic Black Flag songs. Chavo gave it his ALL, interacting with the fans, singing his heart out, while Greg couldn’t be bothered. It’s like he didn’t want to be there. I was so disgusted and annoyed that when they went into the closer, Louie Louie, I leftie leftie. The only two good things about the whole experience was seeing Chavo, and shirts were only $10. Flag, and a decade earlier Rollins Band doing BF songs, were closer to the Black Flag experience than Ginn’s. Honestly, Greg, if you don’t want to play Black Flag, then fucking don’t.
Ron Reyes*
Don't call him Chavo, that was some bullshit Dukowski and Ginn came up with to call him a pedophile because he quit the band
I actually met Ginn at his Good for You gig in Iowa City two months before I saw his 'Black Flag' in Des Moines. Had a photo taken with him, and I actually also said hi to him at the Des Moines show. I didn't quite realize how out of his dat gum mind he seems to be, especially after reading what Ron and his ex wife said about him. It's all obviously a shame since Ginn has always the sonic architect of Black Flag, for better or for worse, and an influence on my own guitar playing at times.
Chavo was an insult. A weak insult at that.
The current, 2023 Black Flag is, to me, enjoyable on stage, but nowhere as good as Rollins in the 80s. I do like Mike Vallely, and watching Greg Ginn I can tell he can play well, but Mike is the most life on the stage. He's my least favorite BF vocalist, but he's still good, especially passion & screaming on "Nothing Left Inside." I've seen them 5 times in 3 years, every show sold out, so they must be doing _something_ right.
I hated Rollins black flag. I saw them once with him and never went again. I liked Dez but after him it should have been over. Don’t get me wrong, Rollins is good at being Rollins. I just think he shouldn’t have been in black flag. Not to mention, Greg went nuts around that time
Really, really great work man. My guess is that Flag can’t use the 4 bars logo if they bars are white or black. That’s just me throwing out a guess.
His name isn't Mike Valley, it's Vallely
thank you for the correction, no one has commented that before on this video.
¡¡¡Black flag!!! Amazing
Am I the only one who only liked the Keith Morris version of Black Flag? I like Henry as a person but never liked most of his BF songs.
Greg Ginn is and was Black Flag.
I will admit the most recent flag record sounds strange and far from anything they did before but I personally enjoyed a somewhat return to hardcore punk the album offered
Introducing Henry as the star of Jack Frost, AND Black Flag’s lead singer is one of the best parts of this video
F@CK henry....Kieth...Chavo...n Dez rule...henry just got lucky that he jumped on board.....
most of u didnt even know that henry wasnt their first vocalist.....
@@AnnoyingOrange420I never said you were a moron....I just don't like henry
Greg once decided to storm down the hallway of the SST house and just steal Raymond's artwork from his room, said "These are mine," and kicked him out.
There's a great video somewhere that opens with Pettibon painting the bars on a wall in his studio and saying, "My name is Raymond Pettibon and I came up with this fucking thing."
Keith mentioned in my damage that when they tried to put together a reunion show he was about it. But ginn said the sun's were recorded too fast and they need to slow the tracks down
Pet Sounds is a bad album cover?
oh c'mon, of course it is. the graphic design and color scheme are nice but that stupid joke photoshoot was such a tragic undersell of one of the most beautiful sequences of music ever assembled. it's like the name "the beatles," it works because you associate it with all the incredible stuff they made...but on its own merits it's almost offensively lame
1:53 he was never actually called "chavo pederast" by anyone, Greg spitefully listed that as his credited name on the last record he played on. You do know what pederast means, right?!
Flag is epic. this new black flag... I havent even heard them, not sure I want to.
i just can't support Ginn
Saw the new version twice. Once with Ron and once with Mike. Cool to see Ron but the drummer was trash. The time with Mike was absolutely dull. Better drummer that time though, which didn't save it. Saw Flag 4 times and it was awesome every time start to finish. The band was on fire and both Keith and Dez sang great. Had a blast and the crowds went mental.
@@donkeywhistler what did ginn do
The two different versions of cro-mags could be a series of videos.
I saw Black Flag in 2013 with Good For You opening up (Mike V's band)...I was impressed with Black Flag until Greg brought out a theremin...I didn't get it..but whatever...I didn't think much of Mike V's band..and now that he's the singer for BF....I think he's trying to channel Henry Rollins and not doing a good job.
i went to that FLAG tour. i think mostly what the lawsuit REALLY accomplished was 3 things: 1) Greg's ego will have him drunkenly screaming "I AM BLACK FLAG"....but everyone around him can say "legally no. you're not" before walking away leaving a pathetic broken mess of a man. real A Star Is Born shit. 2) FLAG will NEVER be more than a tribute band of just friends playing music together. sure they will draw a crowd at shows for quality, comradery, and authenticity...however it stops there. 3) a hard line was officially drawn in a public space between Greg (Black Flag) and literally everyone else who have their own projects. Keith starts every show a similar way he famously did in Decline Of Western Civilization. he states very clearly where the legal line is.
oh, btw, Mike V has been one of the biggest professional skaters since the 80's. he was also in both The Hangover and he was one of the bad guys in Paul Blart: Mall Cop. summing up a career as a massively successful professional skater, and a movie star, down to JUST "idk, i guess he was in a Tony Hawk game or something" is a bit reductive. maybe for the Black Flag part of his life he's not a dude with much favor or integrity to pull which bums out a lot of people...but the dude has been around the alternative and punk/hardcore scene since before i was even born! i remember seeing his shitty thrash band Mike V and the Rats and then later in the day shred the half pipe on the Warped Tour back in the day. regardless of the Black Flag bullshit, or the fact that he's trying too hard to be Henry lite...but he will ALWAYS have my respect.
The “Flag” reunion project was amazing. The Black Flag band that was around at the same time was not that good. I think the singer is a pro skater. I regret not seeing “Flag” with Keith Morris singing!!
OFF! is a million times cooler a band than the mess that Ginn has turned Black Flag into.
Don't forget the Cro-Mags
Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed Black Flag in 83 and 84 when they changed my life & got me into punk rock. I also thoroughly enjoyed Black Flag in 2019 at the sold out shows in Austin and Dallas. They were incredible, all the bullshit, personal, legal stuff aside, which I don't give a fuck about. What it comes down to, for me, is the song. Hearing/seeing Ginn and Mike & the others performing these songs I love...to perfection...was beyond surreal, magnificent, and spectacular. The band was MUCH better live than the videos I'd seen. They played nothing from "What The," which actually has a few songs I like, though they're too long. And the cover does suck.
Even old, these musicians are still SO GOOD in 2023! Keith Morris, Greg Ginn, Kira Roessler, Raymond Pettibon, Chuck Dukowski, Henry Rollins, Dez Cadena, Chuck Biscuits, Ron Reyes, Mike Vallely. All bury their hatchets to make punk rock history. Forget all the past bullshit for "The Real and Original Black Flag" tour! Misfits did it, and it was/is EPIC! Vocalists taking turns, or doing a song with each taking part of it, handing the mic to the next, ending with the best, Keith Morris! Keith would _have_ to sing My War every night. Rollins must wear only black short shorts. They could all get rich and retire. This would sell out everywhere, it'd be amazing! Damn I can dream!
Exactly man I like the focus on the music too. What is going on behind the scenes... we don't know the details. But if anyone has ever been in a band they will know not every member puts in the same amount of effort. I understand the romantic vision of being in a band and everyone doing it as a collective thing but mostly it is just one or two members doing all the heavy lifting and the rest just going for a ride..
Im 64. I hate most of the people that i loved when i was growing up. These are all people, and they are all artists - this automatically makes them mostly all egomaniacs and monsters. Love the music - pay no mind to the people! Years before Black Flag was my favorite band, Black Sabbath was at the top of the list. I loved Ozzy until i heard all the evil things that Sharon and Ozzy did to so many others. And then that monster of a daughter came on the scene, and oh boy - i hate that whole family. I've heard so many sad stories about how horrible Gregg Ginn is.
Those quotes from ginns lawsuits are so funny to me
Valley? 🤔
I dunno, am I wrong, but as a huge Black Flag fan back in the early 80's I've not to this day been slightly interested in hearing Greg Ginn's new version. I saw a little live footage, I think, but have never been interested in hearing the album. Maybe I should check it out? But seeing Flag had formed, and then seeing their video from the Moose Lodge, etc., I was totally into that and would love to see them. Also OFF! do it really well and I'd love to see them (I was dubious at first). It's about having that really kick-loose, edgy vibe, somehow I just knew that Ginn had lost it years ago. Not that that means his music has no place, but it's not for me, and not what Black Flag was back then. Already when they split in the 80's they'd probably drifted into something far too controlled to be essential to me, though I kept on listening, but now... But Flag, and OFF!, they somehow have kept that core freedom and no bullshit that was at the core of it.
This is just like Cro-Mags vs Cro-MagsJM.... it's all so petty and just pathetic. It boils down to a sense pride and an unwillingness to shift in stance over the past. It's not the first, and certainly wont be the last time a great band has a great feud fueled by ego's, backstabbing and resentment.
I might have been able to accept Mike V. as the vocalist of a later-day version of Black Flag. I mean, why not? But he disqualified himself permanently with his stunt in Australia, "firing" Ron Reyes onstage in the middle of a live show. There is no previous singer of Black Flag who would have EVER done something like that to another singer from Black Flag. There is too much mutual respect. It's a brotherhood, and Mike V. will never be part of that. He's the singer in a Black Flag cover band.
I love Black Flag, they changed my life back in '85 when I first heard them (then they broke up😂). I've seen each tour since the restart and the 2013 gig was one of the weirdest shows I've ever seen. I think Reyes was out a few days later.
I will say, as a noise rocker, there was something perverse about it that I really enjoyed.
The latest iterations have been great, provides you like Greg's corroded guitar style (at 70, he really doesn't care if he just makes some noise on e and a while).
That said, Greg is a creep who could have been one of the heroes of the movement but he ruined it.
(Side note: neither of those kids in the rhythm section are still with the band, their drummer on these 2023/24 My War gigs may be the best they've had since Stevenson)
It's not Mike Valley......ugh
I saw most incarnations of the reunions, i personally liked them all for different reasons, mainly, merting my idols and asking questions most interviewers don't, and they liked my questions, which will one day be repeated in print fir my zine ince I am ready. I did miss ROLLINS/GARFIELD's version in ROLLINS BAND doing a set too, before HENRY retired from playing for good. I dig on GOOD FOR YOU, GINN AND VALLELY's band together, mainly for "KNIFE TO THE FACE" I think it is, might go play it just to remind myself to edit if wrong. I dig RON REYES singing, and saw them at REGGIE'S Shitcago. RON was very nice and personable, signed a few choice LPs, and i bought most of their catalog reissues for only $10. Saw them year later with BRANDON PERTZBORN and TYLER SMITH on BRANDON'S 19TH birthday, ge was technically still 18 when he played, turning 19 at midnight, during their set, and they managed to know the time and had a brief birthday song celebration. They signed my albums, except TYLER SMITH, tho he signed my PUNK NEVER DIES! Shirt, GREG GINN bring first to do so, as a challenge to my mother to make it a "cool shirt" in its torn and ratty ass dress shirt, as both my mother called it, and MIKE VALLELY echoing her sentiment. I had to talk him into it, and you could barely read it cuz my Sharpie was used by everyone else in the BrauerHouse in Lombard, so much so, singer of VIRGIN WHORES signed over it. MIKE resigned it in its four year exactly to the date retired state, at a double set show again at REGGIE'S Shitcago, where I made a handshake dral to do licensed merch ising a 3D printer that I am still trying to figure out how to complete, as I also have one with BLAG doing DWARVES. I was allowed to record the double set, but the first set i was to close to JOE and his bass wreaked havoc on my devices, plus REGGIE'S security said i couldn't setup without permission, and I told them i was friends to a distant point with them, and they should ask since i do it for free and give copies to the band at next show I catch them. MIKE VALLELY abd GREG GINN agreed, but fans by me heard this all go down, and yelled into my recorders all night, ruining the revordings worse than they already were. I set up center stage for 2nd set, got pummeled for it, but worth it, as they were tighter, and I was in the sweet spot, so you can actually hear GINN on lead guitar, and bass not overbearing. I later gave MIKE those recordings at a St. Bernard show, MO, at Diamond Billiards and Music Hall. Soundcheck was great, but soundguy added reverb to vox, left for half the set, and man, was MIKE VALLELY Livid about it, but once that was turned off, sounded great. I am planning on recording them next year for the MY WAR LP entirety set, and hopefully have a laptop to transfer files instantly so he then has everything. They have been extremely kind to me, each time, and signed all three of my PUNK NEVER DIES!-!!! Shirts.
FLAG: Saw them at RiptOffFest Shitcago, great, epic. Best thing i ever saw that night, hands down, unless same night i saw IGGY AND THE STOOGES reunion, which think was following night, and barely able to keep my right show a guy stepped on and it completely came off, and I managed to find it again using my socked foot, shoved it in halfway, and planted myself, til that insanity was over, but that's a whole other story in itself. Saw FLAG three times later, at PRB when I saw JELLO sing with THE EXPLOITED, who then allowed whomever on stage to sing "Sex And Violence" so I asked security if i could get up there too, and was allowed. I sang half with the crowd and band, but took the opportunity to visit with JELLO BIAFRA, and asked him to sign it, to which he wanted the whole backstory first, how all these signatures were on it, who started it all for me, and why, while he said he was thinking of what to write. He helped give my book it better title, "PUNK NEVER DIES!...But It Should, So It Can Be Reborn"-JELLO BIAFRA. Since he loved that it all started with GREG GINN, he asked if I wanted to get introduced to CHUCK DUKOWSKI, whom was backstage to the right. Yes, please and thank YOU. Bam, I was introduced, CHUCK looked mad to be asked, and wrote huge, across the middle and over least 20 signatures, CHUCK DUKOWSKI. He was the only one around, rest were on other side, and they didn't wait kong to play, so i left to go watch it, as security didn't want me back there, and JELLO disappeared after the introduction. 2nd time, same tour, in a way, FUBAR ST LOUIS, they hung out afterwards, DEZ CADENA even gave us all press pack picture of him from his days as singer, signed it for all of us who stuck around, and invited me back to meet the rest. They all told me their stories of how they all had beaten Death in their own ways, BILL STEVENSON showed me hos brain surgery scar to remove a huge tumor they said should have killed him. I asked CHUCK DUKOWSKI if he was always their original bassist, wnd he said yes, cuz GINN said he would bury the hatchet if I could find him his original bassist, whom was not CHUCK, nor his brother RAYMOND. I later learned from KEITH MORRIS that he must have been referring to SPOT, or possibly KANSAS, as KEITH calls him, but this only really pisses CHUCK off, and he said he would play a festival for me, but not if GINN was also going to be playing, chose a side. I chose FLAG, but my entire budget was what their agent asked for, also being $10k higher than they got to play for PRB, and this was to be my first ever ILL ANNOY U, C FEST, and my venue blew off an already booked gig BONEYARD ARTS FESTIVAL who paid them, so the guy who promised me the dates for my festival was fired, and the venue tried becoming a BLUES BBQ restaurant and bar venue, and folded within 5 months. Met FLAG again after seeing CHUCK on the street buting humself his new red hat he often still wears, and we hung out again afterwards.
FLAG was way better intensity and representation of the original songs, 4/5 were original members, and seeing how MIKE VALLELY tries to sing like ROLLINS era BF, I kinda saw and met every version, without knowing ROLLINS BAND was touring in 2014 doing hos own second small set of his favorite tracks, or would be able to say I truly saw every version. I didn't meet DAVE KLEIN or the bassist used in 2013, REGGIE'S kicked everyone out shortly after they started coming out. I hadn't started my shirt yet, so RON REYES signed only a few LPs and my "Wasted...Again" CD and original "IN MY HEAD" LP.
I am now friends with KIRA, talk to RAYMOND PETTIBON, who said he might do an album cover for me, but I will just have to wait and see if fortune continues to shine on my broke ass punk shitass.
I love BLACK FLAG, "THE FIRST FOUR YEARS E.P." was my introduction, and my mother hated the CD being played on repeat so much, she threatened to break it, but I explained it belonged to SLOTH, a friend of mine she hated yet feared, and when i said if she broke it, I would have to explain why I can't retirn it to him, tho he was trying to sell it to me, and I bought it without her knowing, abd that before he killed me for it, I was going to insist he kill my mother first and let me watch. She was reluctant to break it, kinda gave me a further distance from that day forward, tho then took to confiscate any punk rock and metal shirts, badges, and albums and claimed to theow them away, but I knew her stash spots under her bed, in her sewing machine, wardrobe in basement, and reclaimed most. I safety pinned a METALLICA T-shirt she ripped in half, then she found it in my drawer, tore it into one inch or smaller pieces, and left it with a note, Try safery pinning it back together now, you Disrespectful Little Shit, her nickname for me. She is Princess Petty Debbie, and I call myself a SonOfACunt in front of her when I wrote myself outta any will by doubling down to say I am not proud to be an offspring of her White Privileged Racist Cunt and my rapist father, when they tried evicting me during the Pandemic for coming out as bisexual. We will soon have our own day in court.
MISFITS are another lawsuit band, and i always felt JERRY should have called his version, THE ONLY MISFITS, cuz he is the only really nice one out of the "OG Misfits" and GD sent ne three C&D letters, and refused to pay or help my buddy JOEY IMAGE with his liver dialysis treatments, then sold a signed HORROR BUSINESS immediately following his Death thru AtomAge for $2K, and a bunch of other super rare shit, and posted the numbers officially of the rarities of each release, ballooning their marketvalue where "She/Cough Cool" 7" on Blank now sells for $10,600+. I lost more respect when he made me remove a Friends of Joey Image Fakebook group invite post in 7th House, saying it didn't belong? JOEY drummed on most of my favorite tracks, so I might soon sell off my records and buy represses once I move to Oregon so no state taxes go to ILL ANNOY IRS, who put me outta both my businesses over $323 after paid them $100 and applied for a hardship when both my vehicles were declared total losses 5 days apart, Prius caught hybrid battey on fire with me in it in my driveway, I next day got a letter from hospital stating my ribcage was entirely fractured from multuple falls on deliveries in concrete jungle for GRUB HUB, DOORDASH, & UBEREATS, and another likely would kill me if landed on my back again. Only worked and earned $45 this year working VD!
just saw Greg's Black Flag last night with the Dickies and tsol his version of Black Flag needs to stop right now people start leaving after the third song so slow weak and lackluster
To be clear Mike Vallely I'd a skateboarding legend and also one of the original punk pro skaterboarders.
saw black flag at brandeis in 86. decent show.
Gotta keep up on your trademarks.
Shouldn't it be Flag vs. Black Flag?
I haven't cared about
"punk hardcore" since 1994.
With that said,you did an excellent job with your video.
I chose a side, Flag.
It's weird because the Dead Kennedys have the same story as Flag. Yet everyone hates Ginn but still loves Jello.
Mike who?
Flag was awesome live IIII saw them at the Denver Riot Fest! Ginn is a prick
I don't think it's pronounced Mike "Valley".
There were two Queensryches for a while too…
KEITH!!❤
The “What the…” album is horrible lol it’s the only BF release I do not own. Such a shame as Ron is a great singer
Greg is right
I have a Black Flag tat!!! Did it myself with a homemade gun from a cassette player!
I LOVE THE BAND!!!! Greg Ginn though!?
Just like his choice on that LP cover!?
He ruined the band with his stupid choices. He is a jerk and has been the BIG REASON why there'll NEVER be a rad reunion show of BLACK FLAG!
hes a shady sheister!
Here's the thing...punk rock is, by definition, for young people. It should not be for old and fat fucks. Old and fat fucks can still make music, but they need to make new music that reflects their current circumstances. Playing the hits from 1980 is total bullshit. I fucking hate it. If you saw Black Flag beyond 1986, you were wasting your time. It was over, done, and thus is as it should be. Nothing lasts forever except old people looking to reclaim old glory due to bad money management. Look at John Doe in 2022. The man has a folk trio and is putting out beautiful new and original music. Is he touring with X? Yes, but even X put out an album very recently and created GOOD new music. They can be proud of that.
its not mike valley. its mike vallely. cmon
I saw the first show of the reunion in Austin. Awful.
But the fact it sucked is a cool story in itself.
Reunions tend to be disasters with pink and HC, but acknowledging the downfall can be fun in its own right.
You have to be talking about GINNS BLACK FLAG. FLAG was amazing. After hearing the new Black Flag stuff, had no desire to see it live. If someone gave me a ticket or got on the guest list, then I would've gone. No way was I dumping 30 bucks to hear that shit.
Pet Sounds.. ? Magical Mystery Tour has a *bad* album cover???? Alright, Im out of here.
Ginns’ Solo Stuff Is Really Underrated & Great, the Heart/Brain of Black Flag. That Being Said, He Fucked Up By Letting the Logos & Trademarks Go By the Wayside.
My man it’s Vah lay ley Mike Va Lay Ley Valaley
Black Flag was great. In the beginning. Keith/Ron/Dez shows were electric. When Henry joined, it was never the same. If you only saw Black Flag after the early to mid 80’s, you saw crap. Better bands took over the SoCal scene at that point. And this modern-day flag is a total f’ing joke. They all suck.
You're using iconic as a crutch word
Only the time before Rollins Was good
FLAG was the better band.
Bill Chuck Stephen Keith Dez.
its easy when youre playing someone elses songs
Both versions are a fucking joke regardless. Greg's new one is spinal tap 2.0, and Flag were great sounding... but ffs I hate reformed- reunions etc etc...just a cash cow
Holy CRAP make sure you turn the playback speed up to AT LEAST 1.5 THIS dude talks SO fking slow
My favorite singer was kieth
Vallely*
FLAG!
FUCK YEAH
Completely ruined the legacy of the band
Flag>black flag
Kieth Morristhe original singer who left & stsrted Yhe Circle Jerks snd Rolllins took over as the singer now kieth is with OFF he us a LEGEND of Punk IMO seems way cool but I have not met him. Wish I knew Dan Root played with him maybe I could have met him then, Dan played my Friday night a few times with Oe Hit Wonder from Long Beach we were not close but friendsit would have been a great oart of my life to meet him likethe night I MET lemmyKILMISTER AND SPOKE WITH H=HIM FOR AB HOUR LIKE FRIENDS AT A TOPLESS BAR i sugested backstage tohis request for someplace near there going on better than thi! i WILL NOT FOGET HIM SAYING TO ME i WAS SMART IT WAS VERY NICE TALKING TO SOMEONE LIKE ME WHO KNOWS WHAT IS REALY GOING ON rip lEMMY kILMISTER/iAN fRASER/NICKNAMED gOD FORA GOOD REASON hE LOVED HIS FANS AND PLAYED TILL THE END FOR KEEPING HIM DOING WHAT HE LIKED MAKING AND PERFORMING KUSIC WITH mOTORHEAD! hE WAS HAPPY TO HEAR ME SAY i THOGHT mOTORHEAD HAD A GOODD pUNK OCK SOUND TOO hE SAID hE LIKES TO PLAY HIS WAY AND THAT IS WHAT pUNK rOCK IS ALL ABOUT! HE WAS SMRT & A GOOD mORALED MAN i DO BELIEVE IS IN THE BETTER PLACE AND WILL BE HEARD FOR S LONG AS i CAN IMAGINE LONG LIVE ALRMMYS MUSIC AND THE WAY HE WAS! i SUSPECT kEITH WOULD BE A SIMILAR GREAT EXPERIENCE MEETING HIM!
MINOR THREAT
Gregs turned into Gene Simmons and Rollins was cringe af.