Running quality is far more important to me than super detail. I don't need sprung buffers, opening driver doors, rotating fans, motorised pantographs, weak parts that fall off getting out of the box, unseen internal fixtures etc. Therefore i rarely buy new anymore and wait for bargains or second hand from trusted dealers. Thanks for the video.
I only model a diesel loco depot, But seeing locos buffer up is something else, And having deltics and cl47s etc ticking over well you have to hear it, You can never go back to silent running.
Oh my dude I am *so* glad you’ve brought this up because it’s *exactly* how I feel about the way that these models have gone. If they were producing a static model, then have away with as much detail and as many pipes and connectors all over the front ends as you can possibly fit. But I want a loco that runs and can haul a train. I don’t want the bogie stuck in a straight line because it can’t pivot as a result of a vacuum pipe. I’ve got a few of these and I’ve ended up ripping out all of those detailed parts to have a loco that *works*. I thought it was just me. Phew.
Agree. Great thing about new tools is that they ensure lots of excellent models from 2005-2015 are available second hand. Run great, nothing falls off, and cost 70-120 quid. I don’t buy new, not worth it.
So true, I am relatively new to the hobby (4 years) and so have rapidly expanded my fleet to over 50 locos. Although I love the idea of the new level of detail on some models it does come with problems and disappointments. I now keep a special bag for each model in which I put the detail parts which have fallen off in the hope that some day I will have the time and enthusiasm to stick them all back on and that's before we get to the detail pack! Great video as usual!
Here's one for you Craig on the topic of older locomotives. I mentioned it in Jenny's live stream chat last week regarding the Micromotor updated replacement motors sold at Peters Spares. Might be a idea to look into this and fit one to a loco and find out if it improves the performance of some of these old Hornby and Lima loco's. I have some potential candidates in my fleet that I might be fitting these motors to.
You make sound points Craig. I am not sure, but are other issues addressed with the “new tooling” such as better motors, more pick ups, other features such as lights and sound and finer wheel tolerances, not to mention old failings such as occasional big design compromises and mazak rot?
Aaaaah !!! Mazak!!!😷😷😷😷😷 That was crazy! For sure there's been some major improvements, I just fail to see why we as a species can't figure out the coupling issue 🤣
Spot on Craig. I got back into 00 at the start of COVID. I’d already got a lot of old locomotives which over the past couple of years, I’ve traded in for secondhand, better detailed and running models. However, I now find the new level of detail makes it a pain to put them on the track without damaging some delicate part. I’ve got a couple of BR standard engines and I’ve already knocked off the cab side window air deflectors. Nice, but pretty pointless and I don’t notice them.
Couldn’t agree more Craig. I don’t know if there’s an answer to snow ploughs causing running issues, but the air and vacuum pipes problem could be solved if manufacturers modelled the locos with the pipes connected to their dummy heads making them into a loop; and therefore not hanging down low enough to get in the way of bogie movement. Alternatively cut out the plastic pipe and glue in some fine latex rubber tube to make them flexible. After all the real things are reinforced rubber piping, thus making it more…..wait for it….. prototypical!. Presflows look nice. I’m guessing secondhand Bachmann items, that makes them affordable? !!! Beautiful model just too expensive to make a trainload of realistic length. I.e. 48 wagons for a fly ash train x £42 (whatever correct price is) = £2,016 Keep these videos coming buddy.
Hi Craig- I have to agree as there seems to be a race to get the most detailed model without thought to how it will run which is fine for collectors but not for those who want to run their stock. I don't want coloured glass , opening cab doors, rotating fans ... I want it to run on my less than perfect track and when I take it off the layout I don,t want bits falling off. With my dodgy eyes most of the detail stays in the bag 😀 Cheers Kev
I fully agree here Craig, too many nonsense detail parts that cause issue, these should be kept to a super detailed version that the modeller that doesn’t really want to run their trains can buy. I’ve recently chopped off a load of sand pipes as they’ve began interfering with the running, and the bogie chains on some of my 37s have fallen off or caused issue because of normal use. For me get rid and make a nice solid running model with a really decent speaker option and on board stay alive and I’d be well happy 👍 Where do you get the music from for your videos it sounds like the kind of stuff they’d be playing if you was in the mad house 😆 (I like it 😁) I’ve got to say you’ve got time travel into your video before me and now it’s gonna look like I’ve copied when I do the time travel episode that’s on the to do list! Bah! PS I hope now that you’ve ditched the N gauge you’re not wanting to start fencing off your 00 with all that fencing you had laying around last week… 😳
No fencing yet old chap 🤣 Feel free to credit me with your time travelling shenanigans! - I've had issues with sand pipes being too long, in the way, etc Bogie chains falling off, steps falling off... It's crackers as you'd say!🤣 I've got a 15 year old Bachmann class 20 - runs like a pro, I detailed it myself like thousands of other modellers do, added lights etc And it doesn't derail 🤣
Interesting take on the current situation. I won’t spend more than £60 on a locomotive. Sod the details they could well fall off. My second hand models can be easily repaired I also try and build rolling stock kits. Just retired money has to stretch I cannot afford the latest model. More fun detailing where necessary the second hand stock. No warranty issues. Quite a few of my mates are progressing down this road. Unfortunately not good news for the manufacturers. Money saved can be spent elsewhere on the hobby. Just my thoughts. Good video again thanks.
It's a great way of doing things isn't it? I'm going to look further into the used market on the future, with brand new models being limited to one or two a year!
@@IronHorseRailways I buy a few Lima diesel locomotives the ones in the dark blue boxes extra pickups better detail. Hornby railroad are still using some of the Lima tooling. I bought a class 31 & 37 for £75 at a show. Even the detail bits still in the box. If the motor is kaput I just fit a cd motor for a couple of quid (motor from china 3D print the holder spur gear ex scalectic). Great fun.
Heljan fit all the buffer detail to their class 33 which looks fantastic, but they also fit the coupling which the buffer detail fouls. I've never understood their thinking on this. Love the gOoFfY music at the start!
The heljan class 33 in my case was manufactured around 2010 I reasd the body slightly at one end and carefully removed the hole buffer assembly by pulling it out from the chassis allowing free movement for the coupler this idea also worked on the heljan 86 without removing the body you just simply pull it out and you can still replace it if you wish..this is fine of course if you don't mind not having visible buffers while running with a rake 😊
Totally agree Criag although tbey look good details can be a pain .So N gauge is no more long live 00.😅 On another note glad you managed to get a chasfis for Gladstone it is a great 3D body and the figures are good. Keep safe Crsig.
Would be nice wouldn't it? I'd love it if we could figure out a way to have reliable, easy couplings which worked with all the extra details on the buffers and bogies ! You can do one end for sure but, that's only half done?
I run locos fully detailed on my loco shed layout diesels only, And to see them buffer up is something else, Also the sound of deltics and others ticking over is brilliant.
Great video as usual. Why not someone invent a coupling from hook to hook with a chain link, with a knuckle joint in the middle. bypassing the nem coupling?. Just a thought.
You mentioned it briefly. I think super detailed should be covered with static kits. Let’s focus RTR on quality performance and running features like sound and steam etc. I guess the problem is the manufacturers have discovered they can kill two birds with one stone and charge for both features no matter how you are using the model.
A good episode what i want from model trains a good balance between decent running and good enough detail that doesn't affect the quality of running the other is a decent variety liveries
I think there's maybe three topics being merged into one: 1. There has been issues with detail parts pre fitted causing issues on trainset curves despite being advertised for running for it. 2. There is then the separate issue of if you fit all the detailing you can't go round the trainset curves most have (causing another issue not caused by fitting the coupling). 3. Fitting the detail means you can't have a standard coupling fitted. 1. Isn't ok and I would agree that from the box it should run or be a incredibly easy and reversible fix. 2 and 3 are more nuanced IMO I guess the thing is with buffer beam detail is that it's quite reasonable for people at home to have an end to end with realistic curves and therefore you can fit a fair portion of the detail. Some also have shed only layouts or just run in one direction not requiring a coupling at one or both ends. In these two instances they can fit most of the detail. Should they not have the detail - I'm not sure that's fair when it's as easy to make it realistic as not. I was then thinking well they could make two detail packs one for running and one for end to end / display but then that's an added expense and confusion. The status quo is that you can fit the detail pack and then trim bits as necessary? I think that's fair. If someone has R3 minimum then they may only need to trim a couple of bits and the rest is fine. I think detail parts that are not fitted from the factory because they would interfere is a good shout. You take it out the box and can run it absolutely fine. When you fit detail parts you having to check them is reasonable in my opinion. I therefore by and large don't think there is a problem with the majority of newly tooled models. Final thought is that I do dislike it when a manufacturer has simply chosen to leave off a part when it should be on the model. It's lazy and it should be on there. Why not fit etched plates from the factory etc?
Etched plates to the quality of Fox Transfers or Modelmaster should really be pushed for. The detail relief really stands out and completes the model (saving me a bit of time and money in the process too), especially with etched builder's plates, which is why I always go with Fox. It adds so much to an otherwise incomplete looking model.
I'm ok with a baggie of details I can choose to fit, as I have the good fortune to have a minimum 30" radius, and I use kadee couplings that don't take up as much space. That said, I have bought a small handfull of new models. Most of mine are old and pre-owned. As an example, my last score was a Hornby Brush 2 (class 31) Super Detail for £65, which looks great and runs well. Mind you, I will be disconnecting the belt drive to the fan
I think the majority of model trains from 2005-2017 are still as good as the newer stuff and there is less to break off via handling. In my opinion. I would rather have more robustness in my model trains and pay less rather than just gawp at them in a display cabinet as I find running model trains more fun. This is just my opinion mate.
I'd have to agree with you to a large point mate, I LOVE the detail we get now, I just wish it didn't make things so fragile - so by the time you're done you end up with something that's the same as the older tooling anyway - I'm not a collector as such, I like to run and operate!
Just look at the new tooled Black 5. Looks great but runs like a bag of sick. Do you remember when therv was a company in the mid 90s (Craftsman was it?) who used to do detailing and conversion kits for locos with everything in a pack. Like a 104 from a Lima 117 for instance? Donor stuff can be had second hand and stick one of those kits on it. Great times! 'm still picking up Lima stuff so hopefully i can source one of these kits fot the 37 I already have. and maybe get myself a 73 as well.
Back in the day, we used to fit fuse wire and all sorts to the front of our diesels which necessitated taking a saw to the couplers if we wanted to 'super detail' them. We'd cut up and shave to shape CD cases to flush glaze models. This issue of detail fouling the 'running qualities' of locomotives is hardly a new one. The original Bachmann class 25, which is probably the grandfather of the way things are now, needed its couplers removing to fit the buffer beam detailing quarter of a century ago. In fact, pretty much everything in a super detailed range since 2000 has been that way. I have come to the conclusion that most people are looking at this entirely the wrong way. Just because there is a new all singing and dancing model doesn't mean we are entitled to or forced to buy said model. There is a healthy second hand market out there, there are plenty of models from older equipment from decades ago to the outgoing generation models from the past 20 years which fit all budgets and needs. The cries of 'I'm being priced out of the hobby' is rather self entitled. If someone wants a class 20 but can't afford the newest iteration, then source an affordable second hand model rather than decrying that the new model is too expensive! The recent glut of class 47s for example, can I afford them? Yes. Do I need (or want) to replace my older models? Don't be bloody stupid! People need to get a bit of perspective on things. Yes its nice to see this new generation eye candy, but it doesn't mean we are obliged to buy it.
Bring back Lima! all is forgiven, well almost all. For the last decade I've been open to buying newer models with better innards than Lima's simple driving mechanism, rubber tyres, poor wheels, etc. Did it twice, bought one Backmann and one Heljan. The result - the Heljan got scrapped when it's motor burnt out, but also due to various other niggling issues with it's design. The Bachmann does still soldier on but it's innards are a pain to fix when something goes wrong. So I'm still mainly running Lima engines, all with high mileages but still running OK. This does make the hobby very cheap for me but really they need to fix the driving mechnisms on the new stuff.
Agree about older models and loved all my Lima locomotives and stock, easy to maintain, etc. However, plus points for me on newer models are the mechanisms are better but arguably more difficult to maintain, like the addition of directional lights, slightly better detail but as long as the model looks like what it is meant to then beyond that not really much else matters to me. I run DC, and I'm not interested in all this DCC stuff, so some of the added features are a bit pointless.
If you're a DC Dinosaur that's fine mate 😉😉😉😀 But the point still stands, and that's where the hobby has moved to now for the most part - there's actually been a. Resurgence of sorts, retro model railways that purposely use older rolling stock as a design choice. Read; Dublo, 3 rail etc
Completely agree, fine detailing is a double edged sword, it's nice to look at, but it can affect the running, also, even getting the model out of the box can be nerve-wracking, I remember, many years ago, my dad (a keen aeromodeller),built a 1/12th scale model of a Hurricane,he incorporated every detail you could imagine,(instrument panel,spade-grip stick, rudder-pedals, throttle controls, the lot!), the only thing he couldn't scale down, was a pilot, and he just couldn't get it off the ground, I think we have to accept that our models are always going to be a compromise, some things just can't be scaled down, anyway, sorry for filling up your comments section, take care, all the best from Scotland, Stephen.
Couldn’t agree more Craig. Most of these mega details aren’t really needed. It’s how it looks pulling a train from 4 feet away that matters. Driver in the cab. No real need for sprung buffers that people demand. Some new engines need stuff removed to be able to pull a train, and these cost well over £200. We coped just fine with old Lima engines.
Im simple ,if it impedes the running it doesnt go on the loco. However one compromise i make is trimming pipes to a point where they can all be fitted and look good (if a lil short) andallow the model to run. Maybe putting pipes a lil further to one side again just enough to allow the tension lock to move. Another thing is cylinder drain cocks. I heat up a tiny sewing pin and create matching holes in the cylinder and super glye the pipes intk the newer holes. It might look a lil odd head on but when viewing normally you dont notice. With longer drain cocks like tghe n15 i bend the ends out just slightly to allow bogie clearence.
Great points on new tooled stock, as said, running is the priority, should be able to do it after all the details are put on. N gauge was a bit too teeny weeny for your big paws, I hear ya, lol, I'm always in awe of n gauge modellers, they've got great patience. New OO layout on the cards for you Craig? All the best dude. Brian.
maybe the main target for all this detailing frenzy is the collector market where the buyer cares less for the running qualities and more for the nitpicking detailing side. Maybe that market is the biggest today ? i have gone from detailed digital running to analog trains produced from 10 to 20 years ago. They all run and look very nice and are very affordable ! well i do run the digitals from now and then. But i only buy secondhand analog, love it !
Nice vid Craig. Detail is the most overused word in the hobby . The drive to cram ever more on models, desire to dazzle is coming at a cost be it with the prices or the inabilty for the models to get round rad1 /2 curves. The garden shed engineering that bedevils 00 is unreal, real attention to detail comes on making models that can stay on the track & couple up. Fat lot of good having a cab that lights up etc if the model keeps coming off the rails. The snowplough issue is only really solved by cutting the bogie moulded nem fittings off. When you make your own pipes out of fuse wire you can bend them to suit hitting the ploughs, lack of thought by the minion sat at the pc with the 3d modelling software is the root cause. The hobby has been firmly sold the idea that the manufacturers will do everything for you & of course people are being sold this , then when they get their prize box of tricks & get it on the track & it doesnt quite go to plan , the disapointment kicks in . The hobby cuts a narrower furrow with each passing year as the models get ever more sophisticated. The manufacturers seem to be dissapearing up their own backsides with their desire to out do each other with the 'details' .must admit i find it all a turn off. the more they keep banging on with it the more it makes me want to buy Lima /Margate Hornby & Mainline & do it the old fashioned way just like i did 30-40 years ago. To me the best years for the hobby are the 1995-2004 period, Bachmanns models of the 158/ 166/ 170 , 42 / 37 etc all good looking stuff that performed as advertised , got the can motors & lights , great finish , nice models that struck the right balance of detail / performance & road holding. The new entrants have gone all guns blazing with the detail front & so far its been a right mixed bag of issues, freight stock where the bogies wont turn fully because of stuff you cant see thats .100 of a mm perfect . On my TPE mk5's the bogies dont turn fully as they should because they had to mould the underside of the coach exactly like the real thing, the eth supply fittings that stop the nem pocket fully moving all because they wont compromise & make them just a tiny bit thinner or move them a midge. Hornby Drax wagons i have where theres no up & down movement on the bogies , when in sheds /lofts etc wood moves , our best efforts at Brunellian engineering / TGV track geometry all undone when something moves & creates a bump. Model railways are all about compromise & unfortunatley its a underused word for the manufacturers.
Brilliant post mate, 👏👏 There's a lot to be said for older models, self detailing - of course, manufacturers don't like that, they don't like ME either for daring to voice my opinion!👎 Such a shame that thousands of folks agree with us! Eh?😄
The problem is perfect scaling on a model fundamentally clashes with hugely out of scale track radius. The model builders used to engineer detail out of scale to represent the look without interfering with running. Feels like everything is just to scale. That's not engineering or true modelling. Anyone with the right equipment can shrink things down exactly the hard part is engineering solutions to make things run without losing the detail. If customers want absolute detail then they need to accept end to end or have 3m radius curve in OO. There has to be a compromise somewhere. The fact oo runs on HO track anyway makes a bit of a mockery of the whole realism thing anyway in my view. I'll stick to old models that I add some details to myself. Viewed from 1m away it looks fine. Sure macro shots will be a bit pants but what can you do...
I cannot really see the differences (on the model) between the Cavalex and Hornby 56s. However, I am not sure why Cavalex have put all the underside detail on their HAA wagons. That said, I still buy the wagons for the sprung buffers and the lack of Accurascale HAA wagons available. Reading some of the comments to this video, though, I can see some older models are still good (my dad said to me: do not let the best be an enemy of the good) and may well suit my budget more. That said, for the A-list locos I am prepared to buy the best models, so maybe the B-list locos be modeled with cheaper/older models.
That's a good idea! Cavalex have told me personally that they want to recreate exact replicas of models, so when you pick it up and look at it, all the underside is detailed too!, so that's why they do that - personally that's not for me though - good wagons though! That can't be denied!
The coupling issue you brought up on this week video, What I've decided to do is on some my wagon to take out the nem-pocket coupling and give hornby magnetic knuckle coupling a go just got to find myself the right locomotive to do the same thing to, not had any joy yet might get myself a Hornby class 66 or a heljan class 33 or even a hornby Sentinel.
This is SUCH a double edged sword Craig. Completely agree with you on everything you've said. I think its about smart design more than anything else. If you are going to offer a complete set of parts to be added to detail, those parts must be design for RUNNING. Not static display. If not, why bother? Good take, always appreciated. Would love to have a pint with you one day mate 🤣
I fitted kadee 20s (the long ones) on mine and used a convertor wagon. This avoids snipping stuff on most (but not all) Heljan locos. The 33 is not all new tooling though and has been around 10 years.
Agree with everything you said Craig! just where will this quest for super detail end? I bought a Bachmann class 25 in 2002 it was a revelation. 22 years later, it still works brilliantly. Ok, it's not as detailed as the latest Heljan or SLW version, but it's reliable, and that is the point.. Sadly, it's the same in any modern consumer industry- old product bad, super new product good. I don't fall for it any more but many still do. Re. the issue with buffer beam details fouling couplings, have you tried cutting off the moulded hoses and just fitting the ETH/ brake pipe sockets into their respective holes? I did on my Bachmann 20s and kept the working tension lock couplings..
@@IronHorseRailways Good point, I guess it matters where you snip them. Like so much in modelling, it's all about compromise.. Love the weathering on the green 20 by the way!!
Someone's been watching the MacMaster! 🙂 - - - New tooling - old saying - if it ain't broke, why fix it? - Half of the time, the 'new details' are so tiny you need a microscope to see it, or it has fancy underframe detail that you can't see unless the thing derails and ends up inverted!
If manufacturers need to update worn tooling then I guess its OK to update the basic model tooling. However I agree that it should be able run in ALL circumstances.If they feel that a newly tooled model would benefit from new details, fine. Made the model capable of taking the add-ons but sell them separately as an update kit. I wonder how many they would sell ?. The customer then has a choice , running model or display model. I'll admit that many of my RTR models still have their details in the plastic bags. When a model is running on my layout my eye-line to it could be eight feet away. I couldn't tell at that distance whether its finely detailed or not.
I agree and would much rather have function over aesthetics, most of my detail packs have been left unopened making them pointless. I would however rather have something useful such as an alternative Kadee compatible coupling supplied as standard instead of a load of parts I can't use. I also don't see the point in the ever increasing need to put all the fine under frame detail on rolling stock, once its on the rails and running around your layout it's never going to be seen. This can also be restrictive for bogies on larger wagons and coaches.
As someone who has just returned to the hobby after a 40+ year tea brake, firstly the changes to the hobby were amazing. Then I saw the prices! Totally agree with you, what is the point of a superbly detailer loco etc at a inflated price if I am unable to run it on my home layout. Surely that is business suicide if a manufacturer creates something that is only aimed at the bigger layouts or shelf warriors! Don't make sense to me. Hence I am mostly hitting the second hand market and saying no to super detailing.
Hi. My story is very similar to yours. On coming back to the hobby after over 4 decades, the choice and variety of models available is astonishing, as are the prices! Also, the Internet is a game changer in many, many ways. Running models has to be the most important element of a model.
@@stephendavies6949 totally agree. I and I am sure yourself came from the background of running trains and see not point of having them otherwise. The new possibilites with 3D printing, DCC (although it was there in its infancy I seem to remember) static grass, steam, sound all absolutely amazing developments and add the internet as you say. What a great time to return to the hobby.
@@ChobertonJunction Absolutely spot on! Our imaginations had to do a lot more work back in the day, as our trains - with next to no separately fitted parts - careered around our pretty basic tail-chasing layouts.
@@stephendavies6949 Our imaginations what a wonderful thing they were. Yes not so realistic trains but good enough would do the job nicely. Are you planning on putting up any videos of your layout at present on your channel?
Yep. You're talking sense again. When not in use, I display my models, as just being able to see them makes me feel good, so enhanced detail is very welcome. HOWEVER, I also run them all, so they must be able to work effectively on an average layout, with 2nd radius curves and standard points. Sadly, this is not always the case with newer models. Sometimes, it seems the manufacturer has spent the development budget on the asthetic details and not the meachnism/motor. Final thought: I'm sitting in my home office right now, about 5 feet away from my class 37 dislpay, and from this distance, if I didn't know which model is which, it's not immediately obvious which models are Lima/Hornby, and which are Bachmann or Accurascale... Of course, once you get closer and/or pick them up (VERY CAREFULLY in the case of the Bachmann & Accurascale models!) there is a huge difference.
Hi Craig, Peter Dixon channel has come up with a solution for fitting the details and a magnetic coupling works on second radius as well brilliant idea cheers Al
Totally agree .Manufacturers are taking the P**S . My older models run around my layout with no problem . Newer Bachmann 37 is constantly derailing. My non modeler friend couldn't see any difference in 2 class 37's .One a year old ,one 5 yrs old . If the model is designed to run with the detail parts it should .If not, its not fit for purpose .
But when you make a model, Tank, Plane, Ship you make it the very best you can surely? With these lovely locos you just dont use Hornby set track points then they are ok.
Well of course you try your best! Personally, I don't use Hornby set track as it doesn't suit my needs. These days I use exclusively DCC concepts Legacy Track and Peco points :)
Agree with the comments. These manufacturers are killing the hobby with over fidelity resulting in over priced models. What has ever happened to railway modelling when one bought a loco and then detailed it yourself from accessories bought from elsewhere ? Railway modelling for me isnt taking a loco out of a box and then just running it. Thats the trainset philosophy .
I see what you're getting at, but mate - they're not killing the hobby! 😄😄 You can still detail yourself too! Buy the older tooling models that are available!🙂🙂
@@IronHorseRailways Of course but they are pricing many people out of the hobby with wagons costing £30+ ,carriages costing near the price of a loco of yesteryear at £70+ and locos northwards of £200. This is all for detailing to the level of a stealth fighter . The hobby has gone mad . I can see this perhaps more as I am a returner after some 20 years .Perhaps a topic you could cover in the future
I like the look of the new tooled models but some of them are totally useless with all the details fitted. I tend to buy older second hand models only occasionally a new one.
Honest question: Sprung buffers. Where do we need them? Are they just fun to push with fingers, or do they come in handy if we run our trains in sharp curves and we have close coupling mechanisms? One of the biggest mysteries to me, people always raving about sprung buffers 🧐
As much as it’s nice to have all the detail, reality doesn’t always go with scale. The question is do you want to display the model or run it. Manufacturers seem to want to produce museum pieces and not just a descent representation with good running. You pays your money and takes your choice..
@@IronHorseRailways no but no model ever has, it’s allways been the choice of either coupling or pipe work from any manufacturer as it’s mostly impossible( peaks and 40s exempt due to bogie design it’s doable) to have pipe work dangling down and a tension lock coupling that needs to pivot. I’m sure manufacturers could come up with something to have both but it would be something fine scale that say someone running 40 year old Lima/Hornby rolling stock with couplings the size of the moon won’t couple to.
@@Wayne56089 that's my point too, I'd love for that to be the case you know? Not having to choose would be amazing - but just accepting it can't be done is a bit of a cop out, no? Manufacturers are doing so well with detailing areas we can't easily see or what have you, but, still get stuck on something so basic 😕😕😔
i don't think it's fitted buffer beams details per-se as the latest all new tooling and its previous iterations had as many buffer beam fitted details as each (on diesels). I do feel that most people are happy with the relatively robust 2005 to 2015 iterations. The new tooling seeks to go finer, give more features (internal lights, fans, special glazing, bogie chains etc...) while trying to correct shape issues of the previous iteration (does not always work) and having locos sitting at correct height (which can cause running issues). A lot of this demanded by passionate people about a particular class (I don't really have issues with those previous iterations, but would leap on a new class 33 because I'm aware of the issues with Heljan's!!). The difference with these all new toolings is nothing like the leap up that the previous iteration had over the 1980s toys. And generally, after some thought, I've seen no need to withdraw the previous iterations especially as costs are greater and there are plenty of other all new subjects coming out at the same time. Diesels are one thing, but some steam locos are getting it too. The first being Duchesses and Scotsmans, which could be bettered (though really only the rebuilt Merchant Navy needs all new tooling IMHO as that was Hornby's first attempt at super detailing and falls well short of the rebuilt West Country or Britannia). However the 5MT has been something of a bug bear with poor assembly and poor electrical contacted being noted. So why replace? That said I have a couple of all new retooled diesels, but these just to supplement the existing. Running wise, the new iteration shows no improvement over the old (though they might have a pre-fitted stay alive, but I keep my stuff and track clean anyway). Likewise, DCC sound chips can be reblown with finer sounds and better speakers, however some of these all new tools have abandoned the 21 pin plug (which was perfect for diesels IMHO) for the Plux 22 which takes up as much space. Worse I cannot take my excellent 21 pin chip for use in a Plux 22 fitted loco. So you either buy the sound fitted option or buy another chip. I get that Plux 22 can cope with Plux 16 etc smaller chips but this at the sacrifice of most lighting functions. And the smallest Plux chip is no competitor to a Next 18 (a god send in small locos). So overall, I will get the odd one. But most of my money goes on the not done in RTR before types.
My Tinsley 47 runs great bought at a pretty good price from tmc, Mine only run on a small end to end loco shed layout, Still waiting for my Deltic its on the ocean somewhere apparently, ps I know what you mean, I only shunt locos so the nem couplers not reqd.
Must admit I agree about detail vs running. Unusually for me I have recently brought a couple of new Bachmann locos and the running is excellent, much better than my older Hornby and Lima locos but they are brought to run, not look at so for me it has to be acceptable detail but not so much that you can run them properly. Let’s face it, how many rivets can you actually count on a moving loco!?
I'm into N gauge. Modelling is like the marvel cinematic universe, fatigued. It happens to us all and understandably if your not comfortable in a scale then rule 1.1 it's your railway and hobby. If no one else wants the N gauge will work something out if that's ok for you
I've got a couple of Hornby's 2002-tooled Black 5s, they look good, cost less than £75 each when I bought them and run smoothly and reliably. I've no intention of 'trading up' to a replacement that's not even guaranteed to get around curves without stalling. If Hornby want to charge upward of £250 for a medium-size loco they need to sort their quality control out. Detail packs have always been a problem and in my opinion are only good for people who just stick their model on a shelf to gather dust. I stuck the front steps on (incidentally) one of my Black 5 locos way back when i first bought it and afterwards it couldn't even get around a radius 3 curve. What a pointless accessory.
I would highly recommend the Brassmasters detailing set however. At the price they sell it for, the improvement elevates the look of the model a lot. I once hinged some steps on the front of a loco, and also recommend that, as making a hinge from brass sheet is also quite cheap and easy!
Detail on any tooling is going to cause poor running sadly. I think the majority of the price is based on development and production of the main item as opposed to the injection modelled bits bag. Surely that is pennies (I honestly don't know). Scale modelling solutions for detail are not likely to be compatible with toy train solutions for couplings. I understand it is not attractive to have to do your own mods on new items because of the price. I don't really have any suggestion other than ditch the tension lock and create your own draw hook. Again, is this an attractive proposition for a 200 plus model? I get round this by not buying them although id like to.
I love three links, but they're veeeeeerry fiddly and, as you say - requires permanent modification to your new models to work... As you say, not a gleaming prospect is it? :(
@@IronHorseRailways I converted to three link before an exhibition. Looked fantastic... and brought me close to tears!!! I use spratt and winkle as a rule. Love the auto feature and relatively easy to fit to wagons. Coaches not so much but doable. Again, it leaves the issue of modifying a very expensive model. What about suggestive detail on the tension lock? So, a half representation of a pipe for the bufferbeam and the bottom of the pipe moulded onto the tension lock hook?
Out of the box they mostly do run! But like I said, a lot of these optional detail parts will limit or prevent running capability - Not right for me is all! I'm sure it's perfect for some though, and that's great for them!
@@IronHorseRailways Bought a new class 50 from Dapol and ended up removing the details because they did as you said, derailed the model. Once bitten, twice shy. Never again.
Shame your giving up the N Gauge Layout but understandable and if your reading this in 2035.... would like to know how much is it for a Bachmann Class 47 please 🤣 great video
@@IronHorseRailways No worries I was interested in the slopes sections as they would be perfect for the box file layout.... IF you end up scrapping the layout
The art of railway modelling has been lost with all these new tool products. Not a lot of true modelling involved getting it out of the box and running it around a layout - I certainly don't find that as interesting anymore. Less is more! 👍 PS - maybe it's better to buy older models and detail them up/fit CD drive motors etc!
Arrrgh, I don't know where you dragged that background music up from, but it's literally making it hard for me to watch. The same thing is used on a mobile game advert that you cannot skip, so it's etched into my brain and automatically gives me negative connotations. I was hoping you had only used it for one video, but sadly not. The rest of the video content is top notch though, as I've come to expect from you.
Brilliant - how good to hear someone talking sense. To those who can buy, to the rest of us don't bother be happy with what exists.
Running quality is far more important to me than super detail. I don't need sprung buffers, opening driver doors, rotating fans, motorised pantographs, weak parts that fall off getting out of the box, unseen internal fixtures etc. Therefore i rarely buy new anymore and wait for bargains or second hand from trusted dealers. Thanks for the video.
I only model a diesel loco depot, But seeing locos buffer up is something else, And having deltics and cl47s etc ticking over well you have to hear it, You can never go back to silent running.
Oh my dude I am *so* glad you’ve brought this up because it’s *exactly* how I feel about the way that these models have gone. If they were producing a static model, then have away with as much detail and as many pipes and connectors all over the front ends as you can possibly fit. But I want a loco that runs and can haul a train. I don’t want the bogie stuck in a straight line because it can’t pivot as a result of a vacuum pipe. I’ve got a few of these and I’ve ended up ripping out all of those detailed parts to have a loco that *works*.
I thought it was just me. Phew.
Agree. Great thing about new tools is that they ensure lots of excellent models from 2005-2015 are available second hand. Run great, nothing falls off, and cost 70-120 quid. I don’t buy new, not worth it.
or even older. I found 80's and 90's lima that run like swiss watches.
100% this, nothing new in my fleet 😊
Great to see flat caps are still in fashion in 2035
They will ALWAYS be popular with Yorkshire folk!🤣
So true, I am relatively new to the hobby (4 years) and so have rapidly expanded my fleet to over 50 locos. Although I love the idea of the new level of detail on some models it does come with problems and disappointments. I now keep a special bag for each model in which I put the detail parts which have fallen off in the hope that some day I will have the time and enthusiasm to stick them all back on and that's before we get to the detail pack! Great video as usual!
Thanks Paul, I bet there's a fortune to be and selling all the unused detail packs for scrap 😍🤣
Here's one for you Craig on the topic of older locomotives. I mentioned it in Jenny's live stream chat last week regarding the Micromotor updated replacement motors sold at Peters Spares. Might be a idea to look into this and fit one to a loco and find out if it improves the performance of some of these old Hornby and Lima loco's. I have some potential candidates in my fleet that I might be fitting these motors to.
You make sound points Craig. I am not sure, but are other issues addressed with the “new tooling” such as better motors, more pick ups, other features such as lights and sound and finer wheel tolerances, not to mention old failings such as occasional big design compromises and mazak rot?
Aaaaah !!! Mazak!!!😷😷😷😷😷
That was crazy!
For sure there's been some major improvements, I just fail to see why we as a species can't figure out the coupling issue 🤣
Spot on Craig. I got back into 00 at the start of COVID. I’d already got a lot of old locomotives which over the past couple of years, I’ve traded in for secondhand, better detailed and running models. However, I now find the new level of detail makes it a pain to put them on the track without damaging some delicate part. I’ve got a couple of BR standard engines and I’ve already knocked off the cab side window air deflectors. Nice, but pretty pointless and I don’t notice them.
That's a shame about the deflectors, but yeah it's annoying eh?
Easy enough to re attach them - but it'll only happen again 🤣
@@IronHorseRailways Yep. I will reattach them and I’m no doubt it’ll happen again 😆
Couldn’t agree more Craig. I don’t know if there’s an answer to snow ploughs causing running issues, but the air and vacuum pipes problem could be solved if manufacturers modelled the locos with the pipes connected to their dummy heads making them into a loop; and therefore not hanging down low enough to get in the way of bogie movement. Alternatively cut out the plastic pipe and glue in some fine latex rubber tube to make them flexible. After all the real things are reinforced rubber piping, thus making it more…..wait for it….. prototypical!.
Presflows look nice. I’m guessing secondhand Bachmann items, that makes them affordable? !!! Beautiful model just too expensive to make a trainload of realistic length. I.e. 48 wagons for a fly ash train x £42 (whatever correct price is) = £2,016
Keep these videos coming buddy.
I actually got them new, they're bloody nice and they run lovely - detail doesn't get in the way either!🤤🤣
Its best to stick with what you have . My 2005 bachman, hornby, heljan are all doing well😂
Hi Craig- I have to agree as there seems to be a race to get the most detailed model without thought to how it will run which is fine for collectors but not for those who want to run their stock. I don't want coloured glass , opening cab doors, rotating fans ... I want it to run on my less than perfect track and when I take it off the layout I don,t want bits falling off. With my dodgy eyes most of the detail stays in the bag 😀
Cheers Kev
Cheers Kev, appreciate the support 😁
I fully agree here Craig, too many nonsense detail parts that cause issue, these should be kept to a super detailed version that the modeller that doesn’t really want to run their trains can buy.
I’ve recently chopped off a load of sand pipes as they’ve began interfering with the running, and the bogie chains on some of my 37s have fallen off or caused issue because of normal use. For me get rid and make a nice solid running model with a really decent speaker option and on board stay alive and I’d be well happy 👍
Where do you get the music from for your videos it sounds like the kind of stuff they’d be playing if you was in the mad house 😆 (I like it 😁)
I’ve got to say you’ve got time travel into your video before me and now it’s gonna look like I’ve copied when I do the time travel episode that’s on the to do list! Bah!
PS I hope now that you’ve ditched the N gauge you’re not wanting to start fencing off your 00 with all that fencing you had laying around last week… 😳
No fencing yet old chap 🤣
Feel free to credit me with your time travelling shenanigans!
- I've had issues with sand pipes being too long, in the way, etc
Bogie chains falling off, steps falling off... It's crackers as you'd say!🤣
I've got a 15 year old Bachmann class 20 - runs like a pro, I detailed it myself like thousands of other modellers do, added lights etc
And it doesn't derail 🤣
Interesting take on the current situation. I won’t spend more than £60 on a locomotive. Sod the details they could well fall off. My second hand models can be easily repaired I also try and build rolling stock kits. Just retired money has to stretch I cannot afford the latest model. More fun detailing where necessary the second hand stock. No warranty issues. Quite a few of my mates are progressing down this road. Unfortunately not good news for the manufacturers. Money saved can be spent elsewhere on the hobby. Just my thoughts. Good video again thanks.
It's a great way of doing things isn't it? I'm going to look further into the used market on the future, with brand new models being limited to one or two a year!
@@IronHorseRailways I buy a few Lima diesel locomotives the ones in the dark blue boxes extra pickups better detail. Hornby railroad are still using some of the Lima tooling. I bought a class 31 & 37 for £75 at a show. Even the detail bits still in the box. If the motor is kaput I just fit a cd motor for a couple of quid (motor from china 3D print the holder spur gear ex scalectic). Great fun.
Great space for a TT 120 layout 👍
Heljan fit all the buffer detail to their class 33 which looks fantastic, but they also fit the coupling which the buffer detail fouls. I've never understood their thinking on this. Love the gOoFfY music at the start!
same with the class 57 Ive recently purchased, had to take off the detailing in order to get it coupled up to my coaches and run properly.
The heljan class 33 in my case was manufactured around 2010 I reasd the body slightly at one end and carefully removed the hole buffer assembly by pulling it out from the chassis allowing free movement for the coupler this idea also worked on the heljan 86 without removing the body you just simply pull it out and you can still replace it if you wish..this is fine of course if you don't mind not having visible buffers while running with a rake 😊
Totally agree Criag although tbey look good details can be a pain .So N gauge is no more long live 00.😅 On another note glad you managed to get a chasfis for Gladstone it is a great 3D body and the figures are good.
Keep safe Crsig.
Spot on, the main enjoyment "I think" is running the train's.
Would be nice wouldn't it? I'd love it if we could figure out a way to have reliable, easy couplings which worked with all the extra details on the buffers and bogies ! You can do one end for sure but, that's only half done?
You can either have a shelf queen ornament or a runner, you cannot have both. @@IronHorseRailways
@@neiloflongbeck5705 clearly, but that's not my stand point here though so, irrelevant for the sake of this conversation😄
I run locos fully detailed on my loco shed layout diesels only, And to see them buffer up is something else, Also the sound of deltics and others ticking over is brilliant.
Great video as usual. Why not someone invent a coupling from hook to hook with a chain link, with a knuckle joint in the middle. bypassing the nem coupling?. Just a thought.
Not a bad idea that, might be worth investigating!
Great video it is all about the running that is why you buy the loco you like shame about the n gauge set you was doing well too with it 👍
You mentioned it briefly. I think super detailed should be covered with static kits. Let’s focus RTR on quality performance and running features like sound and steam etc. I guess the problem is the manufacturers have discovered they can kill two birds with one stone and charge for both features no matter how you are using the model.
A good episode what i want from model trains a good balance between decent running and good enough detail that doesn't affect the quality of running the other is a decent variety liveries
I think there's maybe three topics being merged into one:
1. There has been issues with detail parts pre fitted causing issues on trainset curves despite being advertised for running for it.
2. There is then the separate issue of if you fit all the detailing you can't go round the trainset curves most have (causing another issue not caused by fitting the coupling).
3. Fitting the detail means you can't have a standard coupling fitted.
1. Isn't ok and I would agree that from the box it should run or be a incredibly easy and reversible fix.
2 and 3 are more nuanced IMO
I guess the thing is with buffer beam detail is that it's quite reasonable for people at home to have an end to end with realistic curves and therefore you can fit a fair portion of the detail. Some also have shed only layouts or just run in one direction not requiring a coupling at one or both ends. In these two instances they can fit most of the detail. Should they not have the detail - I'm not sure that's fair when it's as easy to make it realistic as not.
I was then thinking well they could make two detail packs one for running and one for end to end / display but then that's an added expense and confusion.
The status quo is that you can fit the detail pack and then trim bits as necessary? I think that's fair. If someone has R3 minimum then they may only need to trim a couple of bits and the rest is fine. I think detail parts that are not fitted from the factory because they would interfere is a good shout. You take it out the box and can run it absolutely fine. When you fit detail parts you having to check them is reasonable in my opinion. I therefore by and large don't think there is a problem with the majority of newly tooled models.
Final thought is that I do dislike it when a manufacturer has simply chosen to leave off a part when it should be on the model. It's lazy and it should be on there. Why not fit etched plates from the factory etc?
What a brilliant post! Well said about the name plates too!
Etched plates to the quality of Fox Transfers or Modelmaster should really be pushed for. The detail relief really stands out and completes the model (saving me a bit of time and money in the process too), especially with etched builder's plates, which is why I always go with Fox. It adds so much to an otherwise incomplete looking model.
I'm ok with a baggie of details I can choose to fit, as I have the good fortune to have a minimum 30" radius, and I use kadee couplings that don't take up as much space. That said, I have bought a small handfull of new models. Most of mine are old and pre-owned. As an example, my last score was a Hornby Brush 2 (class 31) Super Detail for £65, which looks great and runs well. Mind you, I will be disconnecting the belt drive to the fan
I think the majority of model trains from 2005-2017 are still as good as the newer stuff and there is less to break off via handling. In my opinion. I would rather have more robustness in my model trains and pay less rather than just gawp at them in a display cabinet as I find running model trains more fun. This is just my opinion mate.
I'd have to agree with you to a large point mate, I LOVE the detail we get now, I just wish it didn't make things so fragile - so by the time you're done you end up with something that's the same as the older tooling anyway - I'm not a collector as such, I like to run and operate!
Just look at the new tooled Black 5. Looks great but runs like a bag of sick.
Do you remember when therv was a company in the mid 90s (Craftsman was it?) who used to do detailing and conversion kits for locos with everything in a pack. Like a 104 from a Lima 117 for instance? Donor stuff can be had second hand and stick one of those kits on it. Great times! 'm still picking up Lima stuff so hopefully i can source one of these kits fot the 37 I already have. and maybe get myself a 73 as well.
Bag of sick 😷🤣🤣
Back in the day, we used to fit fuse wire and all sorts to the front of our diesels which necessitated taking a saw to the couplers if we wanted to 'super detail' them. We'd cut up and shave to shape CD cases to flush glaze models. This issue of detail fouling the 'running qualities' of locomotives is hardly a new one. The original Bachmann class 25, which is probably the grandfather of the way things are now, needed its couplers removing to fit the buffer beam detailing quarter of a century ago. In fact, pretty much everything in a super detailed range since 2000 has been that way. I have come to the conclusion that most people are looking at this entirely the wrong way. Just because there is a new all singing and dancing model doesn't mean we are entitled to or forced to buy said model. There is a healthy second hand market out there, there are plenty of models from older equipment from decades ago to the outgoing generation models from the past 20 years which fit all budgets and needs. The cries of 'I'm being priced out of the hobby' is rather self entitled. If someone wants a class 20 but can't afford the newest iteration, then source an affordable second hand model rather than decrying that the new model is too expensive! The recent glut of class 47s for example, can I afford them? Yes. Do I need (or want) to replace my older models? Don't be bloody stupid! People need to get a bit of perspective on things. Yes its nice to see this new generation eye candy, but it doesn't mean we are obliged to buy it.
I still use bits of wire too from time to time with a blob or red or yellow paint on the end - works fine from 1-2ft away;❤️
Bring back Lima! all is forgiven, well almost all. For the last decade I've been open to buying newer models with better innards than Lima's simple driving mechanism, rubber tyres, poor wheels, etc. Did it twice, bought one Backmann and one Heljan. The result - the Heljan got scrapped when it's motor burnt out, but also due to various other niggling issues with it's design. The Bachmann does still soldier on but it's innards are a pain to fix when something goes wrong. So I'm still mainly running Lima engines, all with high mileages but still running OK. This does make the hobby very cheap for me but really they need to fix the driving mechnisms on the new stuff.
Lima are like transit vans!❤️
first thing i do, pull off all the hoses and cables off the buffer beams, and fit the second coupling
Agree about older models and loved all my Lima locomotives and stock, easy to maintain, etc. However, plus points for me on newer models are the mechanisms are better but arguably more difficult to maintain, like the addition of directional lights, slightly better detail but as long as the model looks like what it is meant to then beyond that not really much else matters to me. I run DC, and I'm not interested in all this DCC stuff, so some of the added features are a bit pointless.
If you're a DC Dinosaur that's fine mate 😉😉😉😀
But the point still stands, and that's where the hobby has moved to now for the most part - there's actually been a. Resurgence of sorts, retro model railways that purposely use older rolling stock as a design choice. Read; Dublo, 3 rail etc
Completely agree, fine detailing is a double edged sword, it's nice to look at, but it can affect the running, also, even getting the model out of the box can be nerve-wracking, I remember, many years ago, my dad (a keen aeromodeller),built a 1/12th scale model of a Hurricane,he incorporated every detail you could imagine,(instrument panel,spade-grip stick, rudder-pedals, throttle controls, the lot!), the only thing he couldn't scale down, was a pilot, and he just couldn't get it off the ground, I think we have to accept that our models are always going to be a compromise, some things just can't be scaled down, anyway, sorry for filling up your comments section, take care, all the best from Scotland, Stephen.
Once ripped all the pipes off a Hornby 4mt... Packaging was so tight there wasn't any other way to get at it 😕
Couldn’t agree more Craig. Most of these mega details aren’t really needed. It’s how it looks pulling a train from 4 feet away that matters. Driver in the cab. No real need for sprung buffers that people demand. Some new engines need stuff removed to be able to pull a train, and these cost well over £200. We coped just fine with old Lima engines.
Yup, pretty much!😀
Lots to be said for older models 😁
Im simple ,if it impedes the running it doesnt go on the loco.
However one compromise i make is trimming pipes to a point where they can all be fitted and look good (if a lil short) andallow the model to run. Maybe putting pipes a lil further to one side again just enough to allow the tension lock to move.
Another thing is cylinder drain cocks. I heat up a tiny sewing pin and create matching holes in the cylinder and super glye the pipes intk the newer holes. It might look a lil odd head on but when viewing normally you dont notice.
With longer drain cocks like tghe n15 i bend the ends out just slightly to allow bogie clearence.
Great points on new tooled stock, as said, running is the priority, should be able to do it after all the details are put on.
N gauge was a bit too teeny weeny for your big paws, I hear ya, lol, I'm always in awe of n gauge modellers, they've got great patience. New OO layout on the cards for you Craig? All the best dude. Brian.
New.OO? Couldn't say 🤣
maybe the main target for all this detailing frenzy is the collector market where the buyer cares less for the running qualities and more for the nitpicking detailing side. Maybe that market is the biggest today ? i have gone from detailed digital running to analog trains produced from 10 to 20 years ago. They all run and look very nice and are very affordable ! well i do run the digitals from now and then. But i only buy secondhand analog, love it !
Nice vid Craig. Detail is the most overused word in the hobby . The drive to cram ever more on models, desire to dazzle is coming at a cost be it with the prices or the inabilty for the models to get round rad1 /2 curves. The garden shed engineering that bedevils 00 is unreal, real attention to detail comes on making models that can stay on the track & couple up. Fat lot of good having a cab that lights up etc if the model keeps coming off the rails. The snowplough issue is only really solved by cutting the bogie moulded nem fittings off. When you make your own pipes out of fuse wire you can bend them to suit hitting the ploughs, lack of thought by the minion sat at the pc with the 3d modelling software is the root cause. The hobby has been firmly sold the idea that the manufacturers will do everything for you & of course people are being sold this , then when they get their prize box of tricks & get it on the track & it doesnt quite go to plan , the disapointment kicks in .
The hobby cuts a narrower furrow with each passing year as the models get ever more sophisticated. The manufacturers seem to be dissapearing up their own backsides with their desire to out do each other with the 'details' .must admit i find it all a turn off. the more they keep banging on with it the more it makes me want to buy Lima /Margate Hornby & Mainline & do it the old fashioned way just like i did 30-40 years ago. To me the best years for the hobby are the 1995-2004 period, Bachmanns models of the 158/ 166/ 170 , 42 / 37 etc all good looking stuff that performed as advertised , got the can motors & lights , great finish , nice models that struck the right balance of detail / performance & road holding.
The new entrants have gone all guns blazing with the detail front & so far its been a right mixed bag of issues, freight stock where the bogies wont turn fully because of stuff you cant see thats .100 of a mm perfect . On my TPE mk5's the bogies dont turn fully as they should because they had to mould the underside of the coach exactly like the real thing, the eth supply fittings that stop the nem pocket fully moving all because they wont compromise & make them just a tiny bit thinner or move them a midge. Hornby Drax wagons i have where theres no up & down movement on the bogies , when in sheds /lofts etc wood moves , our best efforts at Brunellian engineering / TGV track geometry all undone when something moves & creates a bump. Model railways are all about compromise & unfortunatley its a underused word for the manufacturers.
Brilliant post mate, 👏👏 There's a lot to be said for older models, self detailing - of course, manufacturers don't like that, they don't like ME either for daring to voice my opinion!👎 Such a shame that thousands of folks agree with us! Eh?😄
The problem is perfect scaling on a model fundamentally clashes with hugely out of scale track radius. The model builders used to engineer detail out of scale to represent the look without interfering with running. Feels like everything is just to scale. That's not engineering or true modelling. Anyone with the right equipment can shrink things down exactly the hard part is engineering solutions to make things run without losing the detail. If customers want absolute detail then they need to accept end to end or have 3m radius curve in OO. There has to be a compromise somewhere. The fact oo runs on HO track anyway makes a bit of a mockery of the whole realism thing anyway in my view. I'll stick to old models that I add some details to myself. Viewed from 1m away it looks fine. Sure macro shots will be a bit pants but what can you do...
I cannot really see the differences (on the model) between the Cavalex and Hornby 56s. However, I am not sure why Cavalex have put all the underside detail on their HAA wagons. That said, I still buy the wagons for the sprung buffers and the lack of Accurascale HAA wagons available.
Reading some of the comments to this video, though, I can see some older models are still good (my dad said to me: do not let the best be an enemy of the good) and may well suit my budget more. That said, for the A-list locos I am prepared to buy the best models, so maybe the B-list locos be modeled with cheaper/older models.
That's a good idea! Cavalex have told me personally that they want to recreate exact replicas of models, so when you pick it up and look at it, all the underside is detailed too!, so that's why they do that - personally that's not for me though - good wagons though! That can't be denied!
The coupling issue you brought up on this week video, What I've decided to do is on some my wagon to take out the nem-pocket coupling and give hornby magnetic knuckle coupling a go just got to find myself the right locomotive to do the same thing to, not had any joy yet might get myself a Hornby class 66 or a heljan class 33 or even a hornby Sentinel.
This is SUCH a double edged sword Craig. Completely agree with you on everything you've said. I think its about smart design more than anything else. If you are going to offer a complete set of parts to be added to detail, those parts must be design for RUNNING. Not static display. If not, why bother? Good take, always appreciated. Would love to have a pint with you one day mate 🤣
Not an impossailty if you're ever over England way at a show 🤣
Heljan Class 33. Glad it was heavily discounted bcos had to remove fitted buffer detail to make it run and attach coupling.
I fitted kadee 20s (the long ones) on mine and used a convertor wagon. This avoids snipping stuff on most (but not all) Heljan locos. The 33 is not all new tooling though and has been around 10 years.
Agree with everything you said Craig! just where will this quest for super detail end? I bought a Bachmann class 25 in 2002 it was a revelation. 22 years later, it still works brilliantly. Ok, it's not as detailed as the latest Heljan or SLW version, but it's reliable, and that is the point.. Sadly, it's the same in any modern consumer industry- old product bad, super new product good. I don't fall for it any more but many still do.
Re. the issue with buffer beam details fouling couplings, have you tried cutting off the moulded hoses and just fitting the ETH/ brake pipe sockets into their respective holes? I did on my Bachmann 20s and kept the working tension lock couplings..
Cheers Vicks!
I have tried cutting the pipes but the. You end up with odd looking pipes!😢
@@IronHorseRailways Good point, I guess it matters where you snip them. Like so much in modelling, it's all about compromise.. Love the weathering on the green 20 by the way!!
Someone's been watching the MacMaster! 🙂 - - - New tooling - old saying - if it ain't broke, why fix it? - Half of the time, the 'new details' are so tiny you need a microscope to see it, or it has fancy underframe detail that you can't see unless the thing derails and ends up inverted!
MacMaster?😕
@@IronHorseRailwaysHe takes the p out of his Porsche EV only cost him nearly £70,000
It's got to work straight out of the box. It's got to look good. Its got to be reliable. Otherwise you can't have fun playing trains!
If manufacturers need to update worn tooling then I guess its OK to update the basic model tooling. However I agree that it should be able run in ALL circumstances.If they feel that a newly tooled model would benefit from new details, fine. Made the model capable of taking the add-ons but sell them separately as an update kit. I wonder how many they would sell ?. The customer then has a choice , running model or display model. I'll admit that many of my RTR models still have their details in the plastic bags. When a model is running on my layout my eye-line to it could be eight feet away. I couldn't tell at that distance whether its finely detailed or not.
I agree and would much rather have function over aesthetics, most of my detail packs have been left unopened making them pointless. I would however rather have something useful such as an alternative Kadee compatible coupling supplied as standard instead of a load of parts I can't use.
I also don't see the point in the ever increasing need to put all the fine under frame detail on rolling stock, once its on the rails and running around your layout it's never going to be seen. This can also be restrictive for bogies on larger wagons and coaches.
As someone who has just returned to the hobby after a 40+ year tea brake, firstly the changes to the hobby were amazing. Then I saw the prices! Totally agree with you, what is the point of a superbly detailer loco etc at a inflated price if I am unable to run it on my home layout. Surely that is business suicide if a manufacturer creates something that is only aimed at the bigger layouts or shelf warriors! Don't make sense to me. Hence I am mostly hitting the second hand market and saying no to super detailing.
Hi. My story is very similar to yours. On coming back to the hobby after over 4 decades, the choice and variety of models available is astonishing, as are the prices! Also, the Internet is a game changer in many, many ways.
Running models has to be the most important element of a model.
@@stephendavies6949 totally agree. I and I am sure yourself came from the background of running trains and see not point of having them otherwise. The new possibilites with 3D printing, DCC (although it was there in its infancy I seem to remember) static grass, steam, sound all absolutely amazing developments and add the internet as you say. What a great time to return to the hobby.
@@ChobertonJunction Absolutely spot on! Our imaginations had to do a lot more work back in the day, as our trains - with next to no separately fitted parts - careered around our pretty basic tail-chasing layouts.
@@stephendavies6949 Our imaginations what a wonderful thing they were. Yes not so realistic trains but good enough would do the job nicely. Are you planning on putting up any videos of your layout at present on your channel?
@@ChobertonJunction I don't have a channel! Perhaps when I retire...
Yep. You're talking sense again. When not in use, I display my models, as just being able to see them makes me feel good, so enhanced detail is very welcome.
HOWEVER, I also run them all, so they must be able to work effectively on an average layout, with 2nd radius curves and standard points. Sadly, this is not always the case with newer models. Sometimes, it seems the manufacturer has spent the development budget on the asthetic details and not the meachnism/motor.
Final thought: I'm sitting in my home office right now, about 5 feet away from my class 37 dislpay, and from this distance, if I didn't know which model is which, it's not immediately obvious which models are Lima/Hornby, and which are Bachmann or Accurascale...
Of course, once you get closer and/or pick them up (VERY CAREFULLY in the case of the Bachmann & Accurascale models!) there is a huge difference.
It's nice to glance at them isn't it? :)
Hi Craig, Peter Dixon channel has come up with a solution for fitting the details and a magnetic coupling works on second radius as well brilliant idea cheers Al
Yeah I've seen it - it's a good work round but, still looks quite fiddly though don't it?
Totally agree .Manufacturers are taking the P**S . My older models run around my layout with no problem . Newer Bachmann 37 is constantly derailing. My non modeler friend couldn't see any difference in 2 class 37's .One a year old ,one 5 yrs old . If the model is designed to run with the detail parts it should .If not, its not fit for purpose .
But when you make a model, Tank, Plane, Ship you make it the very best you can surely? With these lovely locos you just dont use Hornby set track points then they are ok.
Well of course you try your best!
Personally, I don't use Hornby set track as it doesn't suit my needs.
These days I use exclusively DCC concepts Legacy Track and Peco points :)
Agree with the comments. These manufacturers are killing the hobby with over fidelity resulting in over priced models. What has ever happened to railway modelling when one bought a loco and then detailed it yourself from accessories bought from elsewhere ? Railway modelling for me isnt taking a loco out of a box and then just running it. Thats the trainset philosophy .
I see what you're getting at, but mate - they're not killing the hobby! 😄😄
You can still detail yourself too!
Buy the older tooling models that are available!🙂🙂
@@IronHorseRailways Of course but they are pricing many people out of the hobby with wagons costing £30+ ,carriages costing near the price of a loco of yesteryear at £70+ and locos northwards of £200. This is all for detailing to the level of a stealth fighter . The hobby has gone mad . I can see this perhaps more as I am a returner after some 20 years .Perhaps a topic you could cover in the future
I like the look of the new tooled models but some of them are totally useless with all the details fitted. I tend to buy older second hand models only occasionally a new one.
Honest question: Sprung buffers. Where do we need them? Are they just fun to push with fingers, or do they come in handy if we run our trains in sharp curves and we have close coupling mechanisms? One of the biggest mysteries to me, people always raving about sprung buffers 🧐
Sprung buffers work well for 3 links but that's about it!
@@IronHorseRailways they are fun for shunting, when they dont have ridiculously strong springs in them at least.
As much as it’s nice to have all the detail, reality doesn’t always go with scale. The question is do you want to display the model or run it. Manufacturers seem to want to produce museum pieces and not just a descent representation with good running. You pays your money and takes your choice..
That's just it - for ME and many others, we want to run it! 😀
I think there should be extremely detailed models at a higher price, but also more reasonably priced less detailed things 😊
There is! 🙂 It's not about the details as such, but more the fact of having them but not being able to use them as it prevents the module being ran!😔
Zero issues with the 4 Cavalex 56s I’ve got. Will run round second radius curves all day and is the best looking and most detailed model I own.
Great news! Does it work with all the details fitted to the buffer beam and with the tension lock coupling fitted too?
@@IronHorseRailways no but no model ever has, it’s allways been the choice of either coupling or pipe work from any manufacturer as it’s mostly impossible( peaks and 40s exempt due to bogie design it’s doable) to have pipe work dangling down and a tension lock coupling that needs to pivot.
I’m sure manufacturers could come up with something to have both but it would be something fine scale that say someone running 40 year old Lima/Hornby rolling stock with couplings the size of the moon won’t couple to.
@@Wayne56089 that's my point too, I'd love for that to be the case you know? Not having to choose would be amazing - but just accepting it can't be done is a bit of a cop out, no? Manufacturers are doing so well with detailing areas we can't easily see or what have you, but, still get stuck on something so basic 😕😕😔
i don't think it's fitted buffer beams details per-se as the latest all new tooling and its previous iterations had as many buffer beam fitted details as each (on diesels).
I do feel that most people are happy with the relatively robust 2005 to 2015 iterations. The new tooling seeks to go finer, give more features (internal lights, fans, special glazing, bogie chains etc...) while trying to correct shape issues of the previous iteration (does not always work) and having locos sitting at correct height (which can cause running issues). A lot of this demanded by passionate people about a particular class (I don't really have issues with those previous iterations, but would leap on a new class 33 because I'm aware of the issues with Heljan's!!).
The difference with these all new toolings is nothing like the leap up that the previous iteration had over the 1980s toys. And generally, after some thought, I've seen no need to withdraw the previous iterations especially as costs are greater and there are plenty of other all new subjects coming out at the same time. Diesels are one thing, but some steam locos are getting it too. The first being Duchesses and Scotsmans, which could be bettered (though really only the rebuilt Merchant Navy needs all new tooling IMHO as that was Hornby's first attempt at super detailing and falls well short of the rebuilt West Country or Britannia). However the 5MT has been something of a bug bear with poor assembly and poor electrical contacted being noted. So why replace?
That said I have a couple of all new retooled diesels, but these just to supplement the existing.
Running wise, the new iteration shows no improvement over the old (though they might have a pre-fitted stay alive, but I keep my stuff and track clean anyway).
Likewise, DCC sound chips can be reblown with finer sounds and better speakers, however some of these all new tools have abandoned the 21 pin plug (which was perfect for diesels IMHO) for the Plux 22 which takes up as much space. Worse I cannot take my excellent 21 pin chip for use in a Plux 22 fitted loco. So you either buy the sound fitted option or buy another chip. I get that Plux 22 can cope with Plux 16 etc smaller chips but this at the sacrifice of most lighting functions. And the smallest Plux chip is no competitor to a Next 18 (a god send in small locos).
So overall, I will get the odd one. But most of my money goes on the not done in RTR before types.
My Tinsley 47 runs great bought at a pretty good price from tmc, Mine only run on a small end to end loco shed layout, Still waiting for my Deltic its on the ocean somewhere apparently, ps I know what you mean, I only shunt locos so the nem couplers not reqd.
Must admit I agree about detail vs running. Unusually for me I have recently brought a couple of new Bachmann locos and the running is excellent, much better than my older Hornby and Lima locos but they are brought to run, not look at so for me it has to be acceptable detail but not so much that you can run them properly. Let’s face it, how many rivets can you actually count on a moving loco!?
About twelve in my experiences 🤣🤣
I'm into N gauge. Modelling is like the marvel cinematic universe, fatigued. It happens to us all and understandably if your not comfortable in a scale then rule 1.1 it's your railway and hobby. If no one else wants the N gauge will work something out if that's ok for you
Fine by me mate - it'll be listed in the Facebook page soon 😔😔
Have you seen hornby new black 5 have you seen the problems with it supposed to be the ultimate black 5 but it anything but
It does seem to be struggling 😕
I Break or lose the tiny detail parts lol.
I've got a couple of Hornby's 2002-tooled Black 5s, they look good, cost less than £75 each when I bought them and run smoothly and reliably. I've no intention of 'trading up' to a replacement that's not even guaranteed to get around curves without stalling. If Hornby want to charge upward of £250 for a medium-size loco they need to sort their quality control out.
Detail packs have always been a problem and in my opinion are only good for people who just stick their model on a shelf to gather dust. I stuck the front steps on (incidentally) one of my Black 5 locos way back when i first bought it and afterwards it couldn't even get around a radius 3 curve. What a pointless accessory.
Exactly my point mate.
I would highly recommend the Brassmasters detailing set however. At the price they sell it for, the improvement elevates the look of the model a lot. I once hinged some steps on the front of a loco, and also recommend that, as making a hinge from brass sheet is also quite cheap and easy!
it's the same as a car, new model, when new, let the others buy them only buy when the faults are sorted!
Sad news on N gauge - this was the reason I started watching your channel. Not enough N gauge coverage on UA-cam with good presenters like yourself 😔
Sorry Nick 😞😞 hopefully you'll stick around - there might be some N gauge now and again but, it won't be a main focus 😕😔
I will be sticking around!! Love the channel, your presenting, and scenic works etc, just a shame from a N gauge modellers point of view.
I'll have to say at that beginning part, who doesn't love a class 47? lol.
I love them ❤️❤️
What n gauge stuff you getting rid off I take it off your hands ?
A fair few bits mate - I'll post it on the Facebook page later this week 🙂
Hi Craig.
Watched!
Paul. ❤️👍
Detail on any tooling is going to cause poor running sadly. I think the majority of the price is based on development and production of the main item as opposed to the injection modelled bits bag. Surely that is pennies (I honestly don't know). Scale modelling solutions for detail are not likely to be compatible with toy train solutions for couplings. I understand it is not attractive to have to do your own mods on new items because of the price. I don't really have any suggestion other than ditch the tension lock and create your own draw hook. Again, is this an attractive proposition for a 200 plus model? I get round this by not buying them although id like to.
I love three links, but they're veeeeeerry fiddly and, as you say - requires permanent modification to your new models to work... As you say, not a gleaming prospect is it? :(
@@IronHorseRailways I converted to three link before an exhibition. Looked fantastic... and brought me close to tears!!! I use spratt and winkle as a rule. Love the auto feature and relatively easy to fit to wagons. Coaches not so much but doable. Again, it leaves the issue of modifying a very expensive model. What about suggestive detail on the tension lock? So, a half representation of a pipe for the bufferbeam and the bottom of the pipe moulded onto the tension lock hook?
If I cannot run it, I don't want it. In my opinion, a model is made for running.
Out of the box they mostly do run! But like I said, a lot of these optional detail parts will limit or prevent running capability - Not right for me is all! I'm sure it's perfect for some though, and that's great for them!
@@IronHorseRailways Bought a new class 50 from Dapol and ended up removing the details because they did as you said, derailed the model. Once bitten, twice shy. Never again.
OH and sad about your N Gauge layout. My layout is N Gauge. What am I going to watch now????
@@Hal-Zuzzu_Model_Railway disappointing isn't it? 😞😞
@@IronHorseRailways Yes sir :(
Shame your giving up the N Gauge Layout but understandable and if your reading this in 2035.... would like to know how much is it for a Bachmann Class 47 please 🤣 great video
£950 but rails are doing them for £890😍🤣
@@IronHorseRailways LOL! Just wondering, those N Gauge retaining walls, are they stuck down to the layout?
@@simontrainsmodelrailway yeah mate
@@IronHorseRailways No worries I was interested in the slopes sections as they would be perfect for the box file layout.... IF you end up scrapping the layout
Hear, hear. even a turd with wheels and a motor would be better than a super detailed model that doesn’t run properly.
Time for balance!
The art of railway modelling has been lost with all these new tool products. Not a lot of true modelling involved getting it out of the box and running it around a layout - I certainly don't find that as interesting anymore.
Less is more! 👍
PS - maybe it's better to buy older models and detail them up/fit CD drive motors etc!
Not a bad idea is it? There does seem to be a credit card modeling culture coming about...
Arrrgh, I don't know where you dragged that background music up from, but it's literally making it hard for me to watch. The same thing is used on a mobile game advert that you cannot skip, so it's etched into my brain and automatically gives me negative connotations. I was hoping you had only used it for one video, but sadly not. The rest of the video content is top notch though, as I've come to expect from you.
Hard to judge what audio levels will be like - sorry!
@@IronHorseRailways it's okay, it's just the bit from the intro, I'll forever associate it with waiting until I can finally click to close the advert