Ancient Therapy for Modern Problems: Stoic Philosophy Explained
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2024
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MUSIC:
‘Time and Money’ by luke Levenson open.spotify.com/track/0H1niU...
CHAPTERS:
0:00 - 1:15 Intro
1:15 - 11:21 Meet the Stoics
11:21 - 16:15 Stoic Physics
16:15 - 21:20 The Feels, Part A
21:20 - 24:01 Intermezzo: Kelly Slaughter Rides Again
24:01 - 26:03 The Feels, Part B
26:03 - 33:33 - Women & Slaves
33:33 - 39:57 To Live Well
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Scott Aiken and Emily McGill-Rutherford, “Stoicism, Feminism and Autonomy,” in Symposion
Julia Annas, “Ethics in Stoic Philosophy,” in Phronesis
Elizabeth Asmis, “The Stoics on Women,” in Feminism and Ancient Philosophy
Catherine Atherton, “Hand Over Fist: the failure of stoic rhetoric,” in Classical Quarterly
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
Dirk Baltzly, “Stoic Pantheism,” in Sophia
Lawrence Becker, “Stoic Emotion,” in Stoicism: Traditions and Transformations
Natasha Bird, “The Rise of Stoicism: Is Keeping Calm A Healthy Option?” in Elle
René Brouwer, “Socratic Ignorance and Ethics in the Stoa,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Cicero, De Finibus Book III
James A. Dunson III, “Stoicism and Contemporary Medical Ethics,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Neil Durrant, “3 Reasons Not To Be A Stoic (But Try Nietzsche Instead),” in The Conversation
Einzelganger, “Stop Wanting, Start Accepting | The Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius”
Einzelganger, “When Life Hurts, Care Less About It | The Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius”
Einzelganger, “Stop Wanting, Stop Clinging To It | The Philosophy of Epictetus”
David Engel, “Women’s Role in the Home and the State: Stoic Theory Reconsidered,” in Harvard Studies in Classical Philology
Epictetus, Enchiridion
Ian Hensley, “Stoic Epistemology,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Lisa Hill, “Feminism and Stoic Sagehood,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Katerina Ierodiakonou, 'The Stoic Division of Philosophy,” in Phronesis
Brad Inwood, “How Unified is Stoicism Anyway?” in Virtue and Happiness
Anna Maria Ioppolo, “Nature, God, and Determinism in Early Stoicism,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Jacob Klein, “Aristotelian and Stoic Virtue," in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Thornton Lockwood, Jr., “Documenting Hellenistic Philosophy: Cicero as a Source and Philosopher,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Tamer Nawar, “The Stoic Theory of the Soul,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Martha Nussbaum, “The Incomplete Feminism of Musonius Rufus, Platonist, Stoic, and Roman,” in The Sleep of Reason: Erotic Experience and Sexual Ethics in Ancient Greece and Rome
Massimo Pigliucci, “Stoic Therapy for Today’s Troubles,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Abdo Riani, “3 Ways Stoicism Can Hellp Tech Startup Founders be Successful,” in Forbes
Donald Robertson, The Philosophy of CBT
Musonius Rufus, On Sexual Intercourse [Extract]
Musonius Rufus, Should Daughters Get the Same Education as Sons?
Musonius Rufus, That Women Too Should Do Philosophy
Musonius Rufus, What is the Goal of Marriage?
Musonius Rufus, Whether Marriage Is An Impediment To Doing Philosophy [Extract]
Seneca, De Ira
Seneca, Letter 47
Brent Shaw, “The Divine Economy: Stoicism as Ideology,” in Latomus
Steven K. Strange, “The Stoics on the Voluntariness of the Passions,” in Stoicism: Traditions and Transformations
William Stephens, “The Stoics and their Philosophical System,” in The Routledge Handbook of Hellenistic Philosophy
Olúfẹmi O. Táíwò, “Stoicism (As Emotional Compression) is Emotional Labour,” in Feminist Philosophy Quarterly
Jenny Thomson, “Stoicism is Popular Right Now, But There Are Some Serious Downsides,” in Big Think
Donna Zuckerberg, “Guess Who’s Championing Homer? Radical Online Conservatives,” in The Washington Post
#Stoicism #Anxiety #Philosophy
Hey, if you learned something in this video then would you sign up to my Patreon? The show literally can't happen without it! Patreon.com/PhilosophyTube
The quality of your videos is insane. I cannot believe the change between now and a year ago. Truly, well done.
Heya, 10 years huh? good on you, happy things went from bad to wherever you are right now, you seem content, full in heart and financially secure, helping people like me learn a thing or two about a thing or two, sorry to hear about the things regarding the relationship, but look at you now, strong as adamantium, brilliant as a supernova.
You seem like a wonderful person and i wish you the best.
Your new fan from Sweden -Solo
I did like the bit with the religious studies. It's fascinating to see how ideas get recycled through cultures. As for Stoic Physics. That clearly includes gravity 😉. And congratulations on your tenth anniversary. This month is my seventh anniversary of watching Philosophy Tube. I'm glad we've both made it this far.
For everyone that doesn't read the post show subtitles, Abbie has merch! There are t-shirts!
1:05 what does that mean?
I went to a therapist and while she did use CBT, she also once straight up said, "You can't therapy away your crappy life. Depression is the rational response to your situation. You need to get out of your current situation. You can't do that yet, and I want to try to help you cope until you can." The fact that I was in a shitty situation was part of the reality I had to face. It was hard because sometimes it's more comforting to think you can control everything, but you have to accept the reality that while you can and should fight to change the world, at the end of the day, the person you uniquely have the most control over is yourself. You can easily fall into despair when you realize that getting out of your shitty situation will take time. So you have to find that balance between accepting that change will take time and continuing to work towards making that change.
What was or is your crappy situation? I feel like shit right now
@@Andre-bi3gq I was living with a transphobic mom and stepdad, my supportive father had to leave the country to care for his dying mom and would never be able to return due to immigration rules, I was dealing with stress from juggling college and a job, I couldn't afford treatment for my chronic pain disorder, and I couldn't afford hormone therapy.
"you can't therapy away your crappy life" Is something I wish I was told, because it really hammers in how therapy isn't a magic bullet to end suffering. My support group lead actually helped me out in regards to a personal matter, which is why I have unending love and respect for her. It's like getting stabbed and then getting a bandage on it, with no one questioning why you're getting stabbed and how to stop it.
Paramedic here. The rather crude but practical phrase used in emergency medicine is "SLS," or "shit life syndrome." There's no one thing that stands out; it's all bad.
Personally, I think it could also be called "CMDS," or "chronic monetary deficiency syndrome." For a huge number of people, it's just that simple.
"...and the wisdom to know the difference."
My abusive ex-husband is a minister and when Abby started talking about logos, I got nervous. I could hear him in my head rhapsodizing about the gospel of John and the use of the word logos and what it meant to Greek philosophers at the time, and my nerve endings started buzzing, my brain started panicking, my breathing sped up. I was very tempted to click away. But I love Abby's videos, so I breathed through it and kept listening, and I'm so glad I did. Now I have memories of Abby talking about these ideas to help drown out that other voice that makes me feel scared, and that is hugely helpful. ❤
Star Wars fan was he?
@@SirAntoniousBlock Whoa yeah, he was. How did you know that? I'm missing the connection.
@@Ticket2theMoon The music when Abbie was explaining the concept of _logos_ listen back to it.
@@SirAntoniousBlock i feel like you're missing the fact that they might not want to purposefully listen to triggering material multiple times so soon after one another
Can't relate. Not left wing.
The "is that her brother" line made me crack up. I graduated high school, over 20 years ago, and showed my girlfriend my graduation pictures, without any context. "Oh wow, your brother is really hot... wait, I thought you were an only child, and you started transitioning over a decade ago... I'm really confused." I told her I sold my soul to HRT in exchange for eternal youth, and it was a photo of someone I used to be, a very long time ago.
Your brother is really hot lol
why did your girlfriend just immediately call someone, who she thought to be your brother hot?
@@ender691 we're polyamorous and okay with casual observations of attractiveness
@@sarahfay5280
But with relatives? What if she had said 'your mom is fine af'.
@@babbisp1 I imagine she has said that. I don't see how that'd be any different. Honestly I'm more worried over you two guys. If you think someone is hot are you immediatelly compelled by your lizard brain to act on it somehow?
what a different adolescence I would have had if I had found this channel as a teenager. great work!
Welcome aboard!
"I've studied it for a couple of years, but I never had the natural talent" I bow in respect for the spin you've put on it ! Wow !
Honestly as a trans guy I feel like that's the best way to put it
And the smirk with which she said it, I cracked up! :'D Good way of putting it.
@@katelynntull4167 as a woman who crossdresses you mean
@@bake-io1cf says who? A troll crossdressing as a human?
@@GThe-su9kl objective reality is a troll now
Its nice of Philosophy Tube to give away free philosophy degrees
Are you certain about that?
WHO ARE YOU?
You are here too
Funny seeing you round here. I am watching Breaking Bad. When do you think you broke bad? I think its when you let Jesse's girlfriend o.d.
Ayo mista white
Stoicism saved my life as I was basically alone during my time at a Christian college and going home to my Christian parents, surrounded by those who would immediately ostracize me if I were to come out as myself. Marcus Aurelius’ writings kept me alive long enough to get my adhd diagnosis, and later start HRT.
That said, he was also tremendous idiot. His idea of living in the moment alone is great when everything sucks, but as someone who’s now just experiencing some level of self actualization I don’t understand it anymore. Like, I got shit to do and I’m capable of it now. And so does everyone around me. And we’re all in this shit together. And we’re gonna make it work.
Basically as I get further away from the Dark Dysphoria Days I become less Stoic and more Existentialist.
16:39 “I studied it for some years but never had the natural talent”
I’m stealing that. It’s a perfect description. Holy shit.
I was called a “true stoic” by someone who had known me for a very very long time. He said I always had been one. Which sent me into such a massive crisis! because that’s bonkers and signaled to me that A) I wasn’t letting even those closest to me know how completely irrational and terrified, desperate, and neurologically overwhelmed I feel during my shockingly regular … dips? Lows? Crises? And therefor B) I was basically a complete unknown! And B.5) I was living in the world under an even, witty, self sufficient fully-false persona during my only chance to live at all, and B-thus.) therefor I must truly believe atrocious things about myself if I keep it hidden from everyone.
So I went to therapy to become everything opposite of stoic, leading me to a very healing, old fashion,, long overdue breakdown, bringing me closer to myself and those I like, and reality. It seemed like the only rational choice! God grant me irrational emotions!
you have just put into words a realization that i was so afraid to engage with, but your description has now finally brought it out of my head and into reality so i am forced to engage with it. so i want to give you a very genuine thank you.
What does it mean to be the opposite of a stoic?
Isn't this where... We came in?
@@ammarlalji5208 wow. There really isn’t a better message to get from a stranger in a life I think. Thank you so much for telling me that. And I wish you so much good luck - it’s a wonderful thing, being free.
It’s a really painful realization. Truly. Expect more pain. I wasn’t exaggerating about the breakdown, it went on for almost a year, and in hindsight(!) it was the most magical rewarding internal experience of my entire life. (I’m Including puberty and gender evolutions in my ranking here). Something like a breakdown used to be my worst nightmare, the ultimate worst thing that could happen, but …I truly was changed by it, over time, letting the breakdown itself dictate where to go and what to think about or reach for. It’s like It changed my physical substance! I went from being a pile of bricks blocking a nervous system to something porous! Effected. Part of the universe.
Id like to take a moment here to thank therapists and cats.
@@fellinuxvi3541 opposite of stoic ( as defined by a person who already explained that they’re decidedly NOT a stoic, and is aware of the imbedded criticism in your comment but isn’t bothered): a person who is overcome by the irrational, swept away by feelings and isn’t sold on the idea that the first response to explosive feelings and irrational thinking should be logic, and a person who thinks that the desire to fix every “problem” or unbalanced feeling is truly cutting themselves off at the knees in terms of what we can experience in the world. I think I am just equating the entire philosophy with Cbt therapy and cartoons of Davey crocket and the myth of George Washington. I don’t think the man who called me stoic had a much deeper understanding than this. All I mean I’ve learned to love being at the mercy of the irrational, though I had to come to believe it’s the most rational thing.
In terms of art (I’m a painter) stoic would be neoclassical I think. And the opposite of that would fall under the umbrella of the romantic - from Friedrich to Leonora Carrington, late Goya, Cecily brown etc.
Thank you for making this!
side note/message from future historians: That "guy" who used to present this show was super chill and all, but this lady seems way happier and, frankly, even cooler 😎
@@jimicunningable why do you think that is? we aren’t sad because we are trans - were sad because people are taking away our rights. there is not much of a future to look forward to if it keeps going this way
@@jimicunningable Most of our issues would wither to a third of their intensity if society was supportive.
@@jimicunningable from the tone of your comment, i wouldn't smile around you either.
I hear this girl is even the descendent of royalty. She's literally a princess!
I'm very curious about it and hope she makes a video of it, but I wonder what goes through her head when she sees her "old" self? I remember looking at old childhood pictures of myself, and it's a mix between "that's me" and "is that me?" It's like the ship of Theseus question, if you gradually change something, is it the same thing anymore? But unlike growing up, gender affirmation can be much less gradual and much more conscious, it's a completely different experience. An entire video about identity and the feeling of the self would be very interesting given her own personal journey on the matter.
Edit: added the line "it's a completely different experience" to avoid any misunderstanding of what I'm saying
I recently started watching your videos, great work btw, and when you said the channel switched presenters, I went back to see how the other presenter was doing. Usually change is not well received, and does not go well for the channel, I tried adding one... So I was curious how things went. Watched a few videos and said to myself, ok, so it went well because she is just, hands down, a way better presenter, best thing the guy could have done, step down, just hand it over to someone that fits. I know my wording sounds weird but I thought "she fits", that's why it worked, so I must find someone to just fit. The actual presenter change, the reveal, the way it was brought forth, I can't apreciate without sounding cheesy. Great job!
You know there was no person change, only a sex-change, right? So, now that same person has a female body, she is a better presenter, you say. It is an interesting question, why this is the case. Because she is more happy? Because females are more attraktive? Because this person is better at female behavior than at male behavior? Because the subject is better suited for female presenting, like meaningfull hand movements and articulate facial expressions, especially of being amused (schmunzeln in German)? Or still some other reason?
@@ritabylsma4244 The last line of their comment suggests they do know, since they saw "the reveal".
That aside, yeah, Abby is a better presenter now since coming out. Whether that's to do with being happier, more comfortable in her body, or just plain old improvement in her craft doesn't really matter, but I cringe a bit at your suggestions that it has to do with her physical attractiveness or some essential female role-fitting.
Those suggestions are implied by the comment I respond to. So you cringe not at the suggestions, but at them being formulated explicitely. As a female nerd, I often was told that I should have been a man or that I am a failure as a woman. So I kind of feel threatened by gender-roles. So you attack me for pointing them out, because they should stay at the gaslighting, subconsious, level? She is actually playing with physical attractivess and I do not think there is anything wrong with that, in the given context. And the female body being better at a few things, is not ‘essential female role-fitting’. The male body is also better at a few things, like weight-lifting. Futhermore, males and females have very different body-language, and whether this is biological or a social construct to be deconstructed, there is no use just ignoring it.
@@ritabylsma4244 I don't think the OP implied those things at all. They just said "she [the "new" presenter, Abby] fits the show better", not tying that to her gender.
And this very video talks about the dangers of leaning into "seperate spheres of excellence" theory. There are undeniable physiological differences between typical male and typical female bodies, but we mustn't let society dictate for us how to apply those differences, especially where they aren't relevant.
hi, yes, I saw the video where she explains everything. as you said, feeling better in your skin, and as said in that video, can make you be more open, and the audience can feel the atmosphere. that's it. just a "congrats" message from me. there might be something to say about somebody having the privilege to validate somebody else, but with so much hate going on, a few cheesy "good on ya" don't need to be analysed. nothing but appreciation, it should go without saying, but that is not the world we live in, so I choose to word an appreciation. @@chipwiseman2
"I go the extra mile, with extra style" now that's a hell of a good description of your channel!
It's fascinating that in all 2500 years of practicing soicism, the movement as a whole has been very resistant to the concept that in many cases, having a correct judgement about something should actually make you _furious_
I think the stoic view might be that you should set aside the fury because it will impede your ability to determine the correct course of action. I was going to elaborate by describing the need to punch Nazis mindfully but I don't want my comment moderated.
I think the problem is that there's a spectrum of things that are or are not in our control.
The belief seems to be that you shouldn't be furious about things you can't change, but makes no distinctions on that topic
I don't really follow 'stoicism' but I do realize I probably act alongside it on many occasions. On the case of anger or fury against injustice, my take is that these feelings should fuel your actions, embrace them as energy towards correcting what seems wrong, but shouldn't be justifications by themselves on what or how to do things. And I think that could align with stoic ideals
It really doesn't. One of the major tenants of stoicism is the duty to serve the community you are living in.
So you can make the observation that something is shit, set aside your anger, and then work tirelessly against this situation. The only thing in your control is your judgements. So as long as your judgement is that it's worthwhile to do that, go ahead and do it. But you can do it wothout anger, because it will make it a healthier and happier process.
@@KityKatKiller I get the jist. The thing is we now know that not properly living through your emotions is unealthy on the long term. It is actually more aligned with reality (through science) to connect with your anger especially if it's legitimate. Without letting it take decisions without reason.
"Forget your bad emotions and focus on staying 'reasonably happy'" is not sustainable. There's some equilibrium to find
thank you for mentioning the criticisms of stoicism. my abuser became a stoic after my family left him, but in the toxic-masculinity separatism misogynist way. his take on it revolves around his own convoluted take on reality. it's nice to know that stoicism isn't *bad* , just he is. as always, i appreciate your work and learning and stuff 💕
Narcissism likes to pretend to many labels, when it is always self-serving and toxic. I'm sorry you went thru that and I wish you well.
The algorithm is going to be hitting us with a lot of manosphere bullshit after watching this video. Just smile and click to not recommend.
Things don"t happen to you. They happen for you. Amor fati.
Actually, stoicism is bad, almost irredeemable. It places people in an adversarial relationship with their own emotions, and a house so divided is set up for a fall. Toxic masculinity is one of the primary outcomes of taking its ideas seriously.
I would love to live in a world that is more Epicurean and less Stoic.
Yeah, in Stoicism rise to modern relevance it was unfortunately also hi-jacked by the "Red-pill" "Manosphere" types and they crrrasstedd a bastard child of pseudo-Stoicism melded with toxic masculinity and machismo bullsh*t, with some pseudo-Nietzsche thrown in for good (or bad) measure.
It's this amorphous blob of half-baked ideas and cherry-picked quotes devoid of any of the original philosophical depth, peddled to incels and Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate fans because it sounds "super manly" and tells disillusioned young men that they're special, so they eat it up.
But like you said, Stoicism isn't bad. Just that they are.
As a Cypriot Greek, the ancient greek bit was so cool to watch. You are an incredibly intelligent and funny personality. Keep up the good work!
Please, you have to tell me what the untranslated joke was!
CBT has really helped me, too, and I never saw it as at odds with my general position of "bad things are okay to feel bad about" which definitely includes political wrongs. To me, I think Stoicism works if you take "nature" to not mean "the world being inflicted on me by others" but the REAL world, in which we can know what's good and what's bad through logic and history and observation: The world in which slavery is bad and activism is often a helpful force of change. The world in which a person on the street MAY randomly insult me but that I do not deserve to be insulted and they they are displaying poor behaviour. (In which case my response is neither rage nor placidity but disapproval and, sometimes, a desire for remedy.) Sometimes taking a step back and evaluating your big emotions SHOULD and WILL reveal that strong emotion is appropriate. It's just like anything else: moderation is key. When anger at injustice leads to remedial action, it is good. When anger at injustice leads to poor health and burnout, it's time to dial it back.
For me, the truest part of stoicism is that emotions and logic are part of the same organ that processes life and decides on reactions. Emotions do not lack logic, they use fuzzy logic, which is logic that can't easily be delineated but handles complex, many-factored situations efficiently. Fuzzy logic is a holy grail in computing because it's alien to computers but a natural part of the human brain.
Be all of yourself. Use moderation in everything INCLUDING moderation itself. Humans are complex so it's okay to be complex. And accept the world not as the contorted world that others present to you, but the world THAT world is built on top of.
I don't think of myself as a stoic at all, but self-reflection is a very powerful tool and I highly recommend it. And sometimes, maybe even often, you will reflect deeply and sincerely, and you will realize that, this time, you are right.
Thank you for this thought, that sometimes stepping back and thinking "is it right to feel that?" SHOULD lead to "yes, it is right to feel that". EVEN if what you feel is ANGER! You formulated what I felt as wrong about this stoicism stuff for all of the video. As it is presented in the video, you have to 1)step back 2)ask yourself whether what you feel is right (whether you were "really" hurt or "only" insulted) 3)decide that what you feel is NOT right. But this, then, is absurd in and out of itself: if what you are considering has to have a pre-defined answer, then in what sense IS it your thought-process, your investigation? It's just like what some parents suggest by telling their children to "you should have thought" or "you should think about it" - what they really mean "you should think AND THEN come to the conclusions WE want.".
Me: Omg this is totally like CBT
Abigail: If you're especially clever this overlaps with CBT
Me: *Gasps in Greek*
14:52 "Houdeis hekon hamartanei" is a Greek phrase that can be translated to "No one errs willingly" or "Nobody does wrong knowingly." It comes from a quote by Socrates, who believed that people only do bad things because of their ignorance and lack of understanding of what is right or wrong. The phrase has been used in various contexts to convey the idea that people generally have good intentions and that mistakes or wrongdoings are often the result of ignorance or lack of knowledge.
Reminds me of the work of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s ‘Theory of Stupidity’.
So, it’s the ancient greek version of “pobody’s nerfect”?
And than guys like Donald Trump come along and reality proofed Socrates wrong. One can't always win.
no other combination of words has quite so perfectly put my personal conviction into words
Reminds me of Humanistic Psychology
I don’t usually comment on any content on any social media platform but this channel has grown really dear to my heart every video is so well made and it s never just a textbook explanation of ideas but always a deeper understanding of these ideas that are talked about here this one video was more informative and thought provoking than 2 years of highschool philosophy and history education in turkey amazing workkk
Aww, thank you!
“Salvēte” is the Latin greeting for multiple addressees ☺️ There are also other options for “friends” that are more gender-inclusive than “amīcī,” such as “sodālēs” or “comitēs.” (I personally refer to my students as the gender-neutral “scholārēs” instead of “discipulae/ī”). I’m getting my PhD in Latin & Greek literature and teach both languages at the university level. If you ever want a consultant to ensure your Latin is as flawless as your makeup, I’d jump at the chance to do any translation work.
As a Greek, I was judging Abigail's Greek and then she slammed me with her "ουδεις εκων αμαρτανει". Applying some ice on that burn 😂
Χεχε, τουλάχιστον έχει το γνώθι σαυτόν...
What did she say?
@@smugless191 No one is evil by choice
As someone with a little Latin and less Greek, I experienced that same burn.
I came here to say this same thing. I was called out in real time 😂
Love the content. I fell like stoicism has taken a warped form of people thinking it consists of a lack of emotion. This is a great video for people to get into it
It consists of a lack of emotion in aspects where emotion tends to get in the way, but I agree that people have warped it to mean a lack of emotion in all circumstances.
@@MrAdamo yeah it has definitely become one end of the spectrum of sorts in stoicism that.
Its cuz of those red pill mfs using that term for their unhealthy masculine standards
It's also degrading into pedestrian self help.
There is almost no other way but for it to be warped in our modern world. Stoicism in the sense of "accepting things we shouldn't because we accept the reality of it" is a perfect way to drive up "efficiency" and "productivity." This reaches "bad" very quickly. "Kelly Slaughter" made this very clear. In a more humane world, stoicism would have few problems. But this in many aspects overheating world? Difficult.
I think this video finally explained why stoicism and CB therapy hasn't allowed me to improve. Severe depression with psychosis symptoms and borderline personality disorder isn't something you can solve by deciding to feel and know differently - I do that constantly and instinctively when I'm off my medications, eternally rewriting and overthinking your emotions and memories without any connection to reality or control over it _is_ the problem, and deciding to just not care about losing touch with reality, health, and even your very self just isn't too helpful here.
Thanks.
Oh I felt this. I've been through the system for years and at some point realized the reason it wasn't working was because what I think or believe doesn't really change how I feel. My emotions are conditioned responses. I can't just tell my nervous system to stop.
What always struck me was that despite being leagues apart, the Emperor Marcus and Slave Epictetus would be able to gaze on one another and say, "That is a virtuous person."
Sounds like a dystopia.
@@alynames7171 It's like the celebrities in the COVID "Imagine" video and frontline healthcare workers looking at each other and going, "thanks for doing your part"
My story with CBT and stoicism:
I had exceedingly, exceedingly severe OCD starting when I was eleven. To describe it as ruining my life would be to put it very conservatively. After four years of hell on Earth, I sought treatment for it when I was fifteen. Naturally, I underwent Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is still considered the frontline treatment for OCD.
CBT made my condition steadily better for about a year, and then, that improvement stopped abruptly. It wasn’t clear why at first, since I had a good therapist, and he was still following CBT’s standard procedures. I had learned how to respond to my intrusive thoughts in a way that made them much less debilitating, but the symptoms remained very strong. When I was eighteen, I concluded that therapy had done all it could for me, and to try to push through the rest mentally like I had tried to do between the ages of eleven and fifteen.
It didn’t work, and I had a mental breakdown at twenty. I went to therapy again, this time with a really hard core CBT therapist specializing in OCD. He was skilled and compassionate- and his treatment still didn’t do anything to achieve symptom reduction.
It was at about this time that the real problem finally grew clear, which was that the particular permutation of OCD I suffered from was highly resistant to the treatment methods that the CBT paradigm champions. I suffered from OCD without overt compulsions (sometimes erroneously called “Purely Obsessive OCD” or “Pure O”). Cognitive Behavioral Therapy basically approaches OCD treatment with two horns; one “cognitive”, the other “behavioral”: the cognitive horn is the portion of CBT inspired by stoicism, which is to teach the patient to overcome their intrusive thoughts (their obsessions) by changing certain false judgments (in CBT, the phrase is “cognitive distortions”) about those intrusive thoughts that make them particularly debilitating. The second horn, which is the Behaviorist horn, attempts to treat the “compulsive” component of OCD through what is called Exposure Therapy, I.e., repeatedly exposing the patient to the stimulus that brings out their intrusive thoughts, so that the patient and the therapist can work to overcome the patient’s need to carry out a ritual (a “compulsion”) in response to those thoughts- the ritual might be something like compulsive hand-washing. Under this framework, an OCD patient without overt compulsions cannot really be treated: for patients with my condition, compulsions play out entirely mentally, and consist not of repeated hand-washing or lock-checking but of some inward, mental ritual. OCD patients of this sort might be able to learn helpful strategies, based in stoicism, for reacting to their intrusive thoughts, but they can’t work with a therapist to overcome
their compulsions, because Exposure Therapy can’t happen if there isn’t an overt physical object of ritual compulsion for the therapist to help the patient resist.
It was also at this time that I first learned that stoicism underpinned CBT, and, learning this, the limitations of stoicism in respect to OCD treatment quickly became obvious, as they would to any OCD patient who reads the claims the stoics make about human psychology: the stoic assertion that it is possible to change one’s feelings or reactions to the world entirely by changing the way that one judges the objects of their experience is simply false, especially for those who suffer from chronic mental illness. An OCD patient who, intellectually speaking, is entirely secular and unsuperstitious, may still be fully incapable of making themselves walk down a grocery aisle marked 13. For most OCD patients, intrusive thoughts are what is called ego-dystonic: they persist in being intrusive and debilitating despite the patient’s clear and distinct judgment that they ought not to be a bother.
In short, I had learned that I suffered from a condition for which there does not currently exist any licensed medical treatment.
My salvation came from deciding to read philosophers who had tried to model the human experience apart from the stoics. I overcame my OCD tout court after reading Heidegger’s Being and Time, which presented a view of human experience quite the opposite of that presented by the stoics. I won’t attempt here to explain just how Heidegger’s phenomenology helped my OCD, but suffice to say that it did, and quite well.
A big problem in the world of psychotherapy right now is that basically everyone worships CBT, even though it doesn’t work on everyone. A bigger problem is that most psychologists are highly scientistic and don’t think that reading philosophy will help advance their discipline (even though CBT is largely based on ancient philosophy (?)), since they largely share Hawking’s assertion that philosophy is no longer relevant amid the advent of modern science. Psychotherapy would quickly launch itself out of the Bronze Age in which it is currently mired if psychologists would collectively decide to read Husserl and Heidegger.
Not incidentally, if you’re reading this, and you’re an OCD patient whose therapy doesn’t seem to work, I strongly recommend reading Heidegger’s Being and Time. I can’t claim it will work for everyone, but it certainly saved my life.
You may or may not be aware of this but treatment for Pure O has come a very long way. As a sufferer myself, exposure and response prevention worked wonders when coupled with ACT therapy.
I'm only saying this because there very much is accepted and time tested treatment for Pure O sufferers.
Pure O is in and if itself a huge misnomer as both obsessions and compulsions are present just as with a more visible form like Contamination OCD.
The thought IS the exposure and the response prevention is not doing the mental ritual which is typically rumination. Once you understand this some progress can be made if you're a pure O sufferer.
It's sort of funny actually, once you realize you're in exposure basically all day you realize you have pretty much endless opportunities to practice response prevention.
I went from spending nearly all day ruminating for several months to only occasionally being bothered by intrusive thoughts.
Current OCD treatment very much has a response to Pure O!
@@samgillespie5912 I’m very happy to hear that your treatment has been successful!! Seriously, I know how difficult it is to overcome OCD, especially without overt compulsions, so that’s really fantastic!
I’m pretty familiar with the framework with which most psychotherapists attempt to adapt exposure therapy to OCD w/o overt compulsions- that “the thought *is* the exposure”- since that’s the spin that most of my therapists tried to put on it as well. This modification failed to help me achieve symptom reduction, and I expect I’m not the only one who’s had this reaction to this way of framing things.
I believe the reason that treating thoughts as exposures failed to make exposure therapy work for me is because, in my case, the patterns of OCD ritual were so thoroughly inculcated into my neurology that even the instruction “treat your intrusive thought as an exposure” itself invariably got converted into a mental ritual with time. Basically, anything that my therapist told me to “do” when I had a reaction to my intrusive thoughts became a ritual unto itself. I brought this complaint to my therapist several times, but he didn’t seem to understand what I meant. Eventually he changed the emphasis to “you should ‘do’ nothing in reaction to your intrusive thoughts”, but that was just as unhelpful, since even the ‘not doing’ got recognized in some corner of my brain as a substantial activity, and therefore also became a ritual.
The trouble here- and in my opinion the ongoing trouble with all current modes of therapy, whether CBT, DBT, ACT, or what have you- is that all assume, at least implicitly, that human thought exists in the first place as the concrete, substantial, and distinct thing that it becomes once we reflect on our own thoughts during a psychotherapy session, and ignores the more primordial and important status of thoughts, feelings, and other mental as a kind of unformed, conceptually indistinct soup that only later takes distinct form once you sit down to think about it. The same seems to go for stoicism. Since OCD basically consists (it seems to me) of an excess of sitting down to understand all our own thoughts in overly concrete and distinct detail, any form of therapy that depends on viewing thought in that way will fail OCD patients in whom those structures are deeply enough ingrained. In other words, It seems to me that any instruction for how to deal with intrusive thoughts that operates on the assumption that either intrusive thoughts, or the positive mental habits by means of which the patient is meant to deal with those intrusive thoughts, have a clear and distinct presentation, available directly to the patient’s consciousness, will always fail a patient in whom OCD is strongly enough beaten-in that all thoughts, understood in that way, will become subject to obsession and compulsion. If that makes any sense.
The reason Heidegger helped me was because he was the only thinker I could find - in either psychology or in western philosophy- who articulated the existence of a background to human experience consisting of half-formed and necessarily non-distinct experience. Once I had the conceptual tools to navigate and insert myself into that background, I was finally able to overcome my OCD, because only then was I able to break the mental patterns that always led me back to trying to understand everything in the overly distinct form that CBT asks its patients to seek out.
So, while I have a great deal of regard for the therapists who have helped patients of OCD without overt compulsions so far, I still think that existing forms of psychotherapy have severe limitations owing to their foundations in stoic thought, and I still think that psychotherapy would benefit enormously from broadening its philosophical basis beyond Roman stoicism.
Still, existing methods are still helpful, and I more than encourage everyone with OCD to seek out therapy! I just also suggest reading phenomenology, should anyone find the time to do so.
My OCD really improved with a combo of CBT and DBT with my therapist. And with some therapy with his student, who really pushed on the idea that thoughts mean absolutely nothing and in no way reflects me as a person. He often called it thought soup just like you do.
Also my therapist was a bit bananas, I had OCD about knives and I thought if I held a knife I would intentionally or unintentionally hurt someone with it. I had to hide all knives so I wouldn't have to see them. So my therapist had me hold a knife against him or his student during the sessions. My god that cured my compulsions about knives very quickly.
@@klisterklister2367 it sounds like you had really helpful therapists who you were really compatible with! I’m really glad your condition has improved 👍
@@AtticusEdwards thank you, I'm happy that you improved as well with philosophy. OCD is living hell of your brains thought juice making.
As a long time viewer, the tender moment talking about Philosophy Tube's age and as a way to get back at an abuser moved me. I really appreciate you as a person and as an educator Abigail. You've helped grow a lot of people's perspectives and I want you to know that we appreciate you
I totally agree with the criticism of CBT. It didn't work for me either, I had to go to schema therapy where you DO actually look at the causes. Because this way I could finally realise that it really wasn't my fault that I was behaving this way, I was conditioned to do so by my environment. And that what was done to me wasn't ok. Only then did I get out of it.
I really enjoyed this video. I just discovered you through it, and am pumped to be able to go back over 10 years of content and find more gems like this!!!
Thanks for the content.
'If someome can prove me wrong and show me my mistake in thought or action
I shall gladly change'
-Marcus Aurelius
That is the compelling core of Stoicism for me and why I think it is so relevant even today
It puts an empathis on the perceptual limitations of human beings and the necessity for life long learning and personal growth
dayum, i been slowly, accidentally following stoicism for over a decade now...
unless its woman prove me Im wrong, then I dismiss her XD
its very easy to be "calm" when you are addicted to opium, dear Mark aurelius
It's been proven wrong by modern neuroscience, free will is a myth !!
It's like ancient pragmatism with a focus on spiritual/mental health
The Kelly Slaughter segment was actually getting to me, I could feel the dystopian hopelessness for my generation setting in, but then I paused and asked myself, what is the *real* emotion behind this? Answer: No, I'm still right, it's despair.
I need to keep working on this Stoicism thing... the best interpretation I've got at the moment is "Just because the world is being dragged to hell in a handbasket doesn't mean my life will be awful and impoverished the whole time." Hey, maybe this is starting to work 😅
My take on this is basically: If I'm going to die in the climate wars, I'll try to take one of the evil guys with me or at least try to go down protecting others.
As aspire to become that Seed Lady from Mad Max - Fury Road.
@@johannageisel5390 fucking based
Except, you don’t.
Stoicism isn’t about accepting your lot in life, it’s about accepting things you can’t change.
You need to work to sustain yourself. That’s a “fact”. Everyone needs to do it.
What you don’t need is: You putting up with shitty pay, shitty working conditions and shitty bosses.
So you can both accept (for the time being) that work needs to be done. But you can also accept that something better is out there, either through finding another job, unionizing or political action.
Because the despair you feel is created by deliberate human action, you can also change this by deliberate human action.
--
In normal speak: keep fighting the fight brother 🤘🏻just don’t feel too bad about the struggle
My own life is great. Travel/traveled many places in the world for my age, career that's fighting against biodiversity loss and habitat destruction, eat and cook good food, family supports me as a person (as in identity), friends I can be honest with
But the despair doesn't go away. Before it was child mortality, or disease, starvation or war at even higher rates than now. Currently the same factors are present to lesser extents, but capitalist greed grows in its terrorism to compensate. And I believe even in a more sustainable world, some other misery will rise in stocks, like water inequality or increasing dehumanization and detachment from a sense of community with growing internet ai hivemind. The despair doesn't go away. And part of human life has always been accepting said despair, otherwise yknow just go fall off the cliff
@@Amaling If you are working on loss of biodiversity and habitat destruction I daresay you are doing more than most if not all of this comment section to bring about positive change. It sounds like you have a grip on that part, it's just that from a purely utilitarian perspective, what is to be gained from allowing yourself to suffer over what you cannot control? Personal agonizing will have no impact on those things, and will only leave you debilitated. As I once said to my therapist when we made a major breakthrough, I shouldn't be worried or stressed out about what my ex wife may or may not do. It will do just as much good as getting mad at water for being wet. It's two sides of the same coin. Devoting energy to positive change, which you are, without wasting it on something that is beyond your control.
Congratulations on 10 years of this show and all the success you've had! I've only been following for maybe 3 years now, but I love everything I've seen here.
Abigail! I discovered your channel about 2 weeks ago and I'm binge watching it. It's simply the best channel on UA-cam I ever seen. Congratulations!
Regarding weird ideas from the roman era, like seeing the death of a child like the breaking of a cup: for context, that was an era when child mortality is estimated to be something like half of all kids not even reaching double digits. In that environment, not breaking down every single time that happened was a survival skill that kept the family going and the kids who did survive fed and clothed and everything. There were other world and cultural differences that impacted the conceptual development back then as well... that's just a tip of an iceberg.
Thank you for sharing this, definitely puts this approach in a different context altogether.
This video is going to be very difficult for me. I was a boy who was very open with his emotions. To the point of being bullied just to see me cry. So I swung to the other extreme, emulating what A Man should be. I still haven't fully recovered, quite honestly. After more than twenty years. So colour me alarmed when I saw the revival of stoicism in recent years. And its widening spread. When I had my ... "run-in" with Jordan Peterson (watched a few videos on youtube to get out of my slump after a breakup) and heard him talk about it. I was terrified. Because the way he spoke, people could very easily take it to the wrong extreme. Because that's the problem with stoicism. It helps in some aspects. Why not others? Others where it absolutely shouldn't be applied in the way some are talking about it.
There's a medical history podcast I listen to called sawbones, and they tend to say "cure alls cure nothing". I think some of that can be applied here. Some cbt/stoicism can be good, but if you're stretching the practice to have it be applied to everything... Then whatever you've done to it must mean it isn't going to do any good
Any philosophy can be taken to extremes - and to be honest, nearly all have with horrifying results. From Christianity to Buddhism, to Jung and Freud, from Marxism to neoliberalism- you name it, someone has twisted it and used to cause harm in the name of the greater good. That doesn’t mean the source is equally bad. It’s just a symptom of being human.
CBT, stoicism, Buddhism, etc. are neither repressing emotions nor acting "irrationally" based on them, but a healthy RESPECT of emotions combined with a CURIOSITY about what they are trying to communicate. Emotions are realistic and necessary, and based on either protecting or nurturing some person, place, or thing that we care about. But we also have a more objective part of our brain, which can use that information from the limbic system (and "lower" physical-state parts of the nervous system that tell us about our body) to clue us into what's most noteworthy in a situation.
The objective view can ask the emotional, and physical, parts what person, place, or thing is either being threatened (if the emotion is a negative fight, flight, or freeze type), or potentially greatly helped (if the emotion is a positive elation type), and what, specifically, might be going on to cause that experience. Then, the objective view can listen to the emotional and physical views to get a broader picture of the situation, and offer to let the other parts a chance to test out their opinions on a range of possible solutions that might be more effective in the long run.
Basically, the goal is to work together with all of you collaborating respectfully, rather than letting one part, or another, fully control everything.
I would argue that you should practice stoicism when listening to Peterson because this video addressed why people interpret his words so poorly all the time is due to a reliance on emotional based predjudice...
Society has made a judgment about Peterson "Peterson must be X kind of person". Tuseful
@@httohot I had never even heard of Peterson back then. I was a tabula rasa when it came to expectations. And yet what he said sometimes triggered a small trauma response. It was only when I had the eventual Ben Shapiro video in my recs that I closed very quickly that I completely burned that bridge. Because when Peterson talked about emotions and stoicism, "biological realities" were not far away. "Realities" that were repeated by Shapiro but with the quiet part being louder when you managed to actually listen to his cascade of words.
This isn't just about "emotional prejudice" either. Peterson is objectively wrong on many things and uses arguments akin to the powerlessness/inaction line of reasoning that stoicism can lead to. He's deeply entrenched in maintaining a status quo that never existed without flaws nor without injustices and blames those that have fought or are fighting to amend these for them. That is why many people don't like him. And why he was seen as one of the gates to the alt right pipeline.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH
I JUST READ THE COMMUNITY UPDATE!
Congratulations on your role in Baldur's Gate 3!!
Edit: 3 Weeks later I finally found your character. Nocturne! The interactions with Shadowheart were very sweet. But also sad: Never settle for Shar's philosophy! ...Could I give you a Lathander pamphlet, please?
In middle school and high school, I considered myself a "chill person", go with the flow. Stoic is how I justified myself.
With hindsight, I wasn't Stoic but Apathetic. I did not care about things and consciously trained myself not to care about things thinking it was "good".
In reality it was likely a defense mechanism to keep myself from being hurt. I didn't even need to really protect myself from anything. I had good grades, ok friends, parents were decent, etc. I guess I just felt pressured to fill others expectations and was afraid at some point i wouldn't succeed and prepared myself for that failure, even if it never really came.
I suppose I still have some aspects leftover from when I was apathetic, but I've been trying to break them. It's such a sad life when nothing gives you joy nor pain.
Honestly, my philosophy has almost completely changed since then. Pain may hurt and feel bad, but it at least means you're alive, living... It's better than not feeling anything at all, going about your mundane days.
Same really - and I think it's as a consequence of an innate need to be independent and private from really young childhood. If I got hurt I wouldn't cry. If I lost a toy I wouldn't tell anyone. I saw this stuff as my problem and only I needed to be involved in any solution. It was no one else's business. Only mine. And as far as anyone else ever knew I was 'fine'. If someone did try to help me I'd be quietly resentful at their interference. Problems - I'd rather either deal with myself or just live with them - stoically.
I just always have put up with things. This isn't a sad story - I've always been and am ok due to this natural ability to cope and natural self-reliance but now I think there are things I could have and should have fixed. Battles I should have fought. Times when I could have and should have asked for help. Times when I could have sought advice. But because of how easy I find it to be content with everything I do just let things go on when I could have improved the situation instead of passively accepting it as 'that's how it is'.
I was bullied relentlessly at high school for example. Everyone thought I was a freak. I just put up with it. I didn't tell anyone at all. I didn't ask to move school. I carried on going every day. My method was to walk around the school at breaktimes and lunches in a purposeful way as if I was late for something so no one would know I was alone. And to take the abuse as if I was oblivious or distracted by something else. I think this is where the apathy comes in for me. Where I combined my natural independence and resilience and trained myself to not care. And if you manage it that's what you get - a crippling of emotional depth. Cutting you off from the lows but also from the highs. A narrowed spectrum of emotion.
It's only with hindsight and maturity I can see this at all clearly. At the very least I could have asked to move school! 😂
I feel acomplished when mommy called me clever for recognizing CBT in the description of stoicism 🥺♥️
Haha I love that
I was prepped for this when the Serenity Prayer was mentioned but equally pleased cos it meant I was paying attention
It is always so frustrating to read a lot of classic writing by great thinkers who are concerned about human freedom, who expanded views about equality compared to the society they were in.. and yet after all that thinking and observing they still had huge blind spots around women, slaves, specific ethnicities, etc. It's like these things were so ingrained in their upbringing it didn't even occur to them to question them, even as they questioned so much else.
It's only human
I think it was inconvenient to question those things… so they didn’t
In the future it would also be about us and how we treated animals for food, etc
@@m33LLSAnd how we killed them to be stuffed for our amusement... Seriously, the taxidermic animals in this video are so disgusting and disturbing. But actually, I'm not sure if humans will ever expand their empathy to include other animals at the same level as other humans. The future doesn't look very bright, with climate change, new wars breaking up etc. I'm afraid we'll abandon some of our moral beliefs towards other humans just so we don't feel obligated to share resources, and we might start treating non-human animals even worse.
In the future, what blind spots do you think a hypothetically advanced, utopian civilization would see about us, and shaking their head, think ''My, my they talked about inclusion, hearing all people's voices, and being kind to other groups, yet look at all their blind spots with [...]'' and in that ''[...]'' Would be the long list of social problems that us, being too biased by our current historical era, are so indoctrinated we do not even realise those forms of wrong headed thinking are wrong.
love the show as always! been watching about a year but i had no idea you've been doing this for 10 years. hella impressive. thank you for sharing your degree, and looking forward to see you thriving and going on even longer!
same my friend
Worry not Abi, Left-tube is still very much alive and well and we're greatful for your continued contribution 😄
I think the Serenity Prayer itself hints at a good way to incorporate Stoicism (and CBT) in balance - it’s good to use it sometimes, but sometimes we just need to realize “wait, this is screwed up, I (or we) need to change this.”
Some days it’s good to defuse from a bad day at work or get along with a coworker who sticks their foot in their mouth, but other days you need to have the tough conversations, join a union, get a different job, etc.
I've been thinking lately about the quote "beware the fury of a patient man". Most people seem to read that as "pent up rage is explosive", but I've always thought of it rather differently. If you put up with a lot of sh*t, then it's a good bet that when you allow yourself to get angry, it'll be for a cause you see as righteous. If your cause is righteous, then that patience will go toward being an effective agent. All this to say, beware the stoic revolutionary.
The prayer cover your criticism though. It says "the things i cannot change" keyword cannot. Some things we cannot change
I've always liked that about the serenity prayer. Stoicism doesn't encourage passivity, or emotional repression, it simply says to step back and ensure your response aligns with reality. And sometimes the reality is that you should be very angry and allow that anger to fuel your proactive pursuit of change.
As a recovering alcoholic and someone who has made a lot of personal progress using the 12 Steps and DBT & CBT, I'm hearing a lot of really cool crossovers. One of the most powerful things I ever learned that really clicked for me was the concept that I don't reaction to situations, I react to my thoughts _about_ the situation. Scenario: As I'm walking down the street two girls look at me, whisper something to each other, and start laughing; immediately I feel embarrassment. I used to think that my embarrassment was a reaction to the _situation_ (the girls laughing). Now, I try and recognize that I'm actually reacting to my thoughts _about_ the situation. The only reason the laughing girls make me feel embarrassed is because _I'm making an assumption that they're laughing at me_ -- that's the thought ABOUT the situation that I'm ACTUALLY reacting to. So whenever a situation produces really strong emotions in me, I take a step back and think to myself... what are the underlying thoughts or assumptions that I'M making that are causing me to have such big feelings? I repeat the mantra, "Dig deep and find the hurt." Idk, it really works for me.
...no. I'm talking about children dying and all the abuse and exploitation I see everywhere. This can be dangerous thinking in some situations- abuse for example.
I'm also chronically ill....this just doesn't work for me because im not getting upset over anything remotely normal or shallow
@@whatever3145 Did you watch the rest of the video?
thing is even if the two girls were laughing at you that shouldn't bother you, its them that has the problem not you, and if they were not laughing at you, that too shouldn't bother you, that's what stoicism is about.
CBT and its successor DBT, are amazing. They have been adopted into so many different fields and areas of therapy/recovery, etc. It really is just training your brain to be better.
Hi Abigail! I don’t know if you can see this, but I want to express my appreciation deeply to you. I started following you around 3 years ago, I had no clue what should I do in life nor any directions to follow. But it was you who led me to philosophy, I was watching every single video of yours (and rewatching), I was deeply inspired and still am, and more importantly, philosophy has now become my life-long passion. Thank you for all you have done and for being such an inspiring figure for me. Happy for 10 years anniversary and your play!!!🎉
Stoicism helped me a lot in high school, I was a perfectionist and had a fear of failure. 16-year-old me reading some books about stoicism led to me literally never being overwhelmed or feeling like a failure when it comes to my academic achievements and setbacks. and now I'm in uni hihi.
The Stoicism pushed in therapy always hit upon this issue of perceived reality and what the therapist thought was reasonable.
I started out as an Autistic, lacking emotional expression, being utterly detached and content within my own existence....but all of that get's snatched from you when the demands of society and education step in and say it's the wrong way to be. Then when you've worked so hard to be what is demanded, and illness, injustice, and the enforced state of human misery gets right into your soul- they extol that state of being you were punished for in the first place. They act as if being content is something you just forgot to do, not something that is constantly being beaten out of you. There are things about ourselves we can change- but not all change is good.
Amazing point
"There are things about ourselves we can change- but not all change is good"
True, but on the other hand it really does come to your goals and recognition of any inadequacies that needs or wants changing. Changing for the sake change is no good but changing to improve a missing gap is beneficial.
@@MrMattias87 Well there's the rub. 'Beneficial' to whom? If the people 'helping' us are only concerned with there own convenience rather than our overall well-being it's a serious problem.
Thank you for commenting this. Being autistic I’ve felt exactly this way for so long but have only just realised it reading your comment.
@@emilyfarfadet9131 I think the key lies in why you went to therapy. I of course don't know the specifics of your situation. But if you're there because you feel terrible and exhausted all the time, then the therapy should be focused on why you feel that way and what you can do to feel better (spending more time on yourself, learning to not rely on the judgements of others, etc.). If you were in therapy because you wanted to be able to make connections with others more easily, then the therapy should focus on understanding how other people work and how they will respond to your actions. If your therapist "assumes" what your problem is without actually asking and talking about it, that's a straight up bad therapist. There are plenty of those in the world, especially when dealing with neurodivergent clients.
I cannot believe I’ve only just stumbled across this channel. Abigail, this video was exquisite; funny, informative and your presentation style and editing is flawless. Sensational.
You have a wealth of amazing videos to enjoy! Better later than never!
I envy you, wish I could see her channel for the first time. Again and again.
It's time to binge watch the entire catalogue, bud. Have fun, it's a magnificent channel!
I'm late to the party too. Every so often something turns up in my feed that is a change from my regular diet and I give it a go. Usually there is not much time between "oh that's interesting" and "bored now" but Abigail's presentation style and personality make her such a great communicator that I'm happy to be playing catch up.
Recently came across your channel and I love the content you're sharing! It genuinely moved me to hear about your success. You go girl!!
I absolutely cherish you and all that you bring to the world. You wit and humor and knowledge and creativity and authenticity are so tangible and present. I often daydream while watching these videos that you are my neighbor and I’ve just been walking my dog and passing your house see you putting in work in your front yard rose garden and stop for a chat and end up having another mind expanding excellent and energizing conversation- and I love that! Thank you thank you thank you! Keep being awesome please, it truly is making the world a better place. ❤
At my most egg form I read a lot of stoic philosophy and other therapies to help me control my emotions and inner turmoil. Turns out that letting go of control and transitioning was way more beneficial to my mental health and happiness.
That's kinda what happened to me too. I think the thing that caused me to adapt the more submissive "I should just accept being unhappy" brand of stoicism was my upbringing in the church. When I started to actually question why I wasn't happy even though I was doing "what I wanted to do with my life" is when my egg started slowly cracking. Going on HRT helped me with my emotions because it helped me to realize that being unfeeling about things wasn't the most healthy way to go about things.
Same. After decades of failure to achieve the mental discipline yo be emotionally-regulated and happy, I discovered that what I actually needed was HRT to get my brain the correct balance of neurotransmitters.
As a bit of an Epicurean, I feel both excited and nervous for this video. Stoicism is having a real (weird) modern revival with people who mostly seem to think that virtue is a pretty inconsequential part of it except as a means to an end (of happiness or self-actualization, etc)
Much like my little pony it's not the source material that's bad, it's the fans
The virgin "just pretend your feelings aren't real" Stoic vs the chad "drink wine and eat cheese with your friends" Epicurean
Just to be clear, could you give an example? Also I would like to hear which parts of Epicureanism you identify with and which parts you don't. Would be cool to have this type of discussion.
Broicism is not stoicism
@@ahlimahs one true stoic
First time I see one of your videos. You have no idea on how fresh and upbeat this video was for me. Thanks for existing and for wht you do!.
I found this video really helpful! It's clear that you've put a lot of thought into explaining stoicism in a way that's accessible and engaging. I especially appreciated how you broke down the key concepts like the dichotomy of control and virtue, and how you used your own experiences to illustrate the practical applications of stoicism.
I'm definitely going to try to incorporate some of these ideas into my own life. I think the idea of focusing on what I can control and letting go of things that are out of my hands is something that I can really benefit from. And I like the emphasis on living in accordance with nature - it's a good reminder to slow down and appreciate the simple things in life.
Thanks for making such a great video!
Genuinely life changing video. I'd always felt frustrated and even furious after I had CBT sessions, now I'm diagnosed with autism and on HRT and wouldn't you know it, not suffering constantly really helps one to not suffer constantly. But I'd always felt that I had to be missing something in those sessions, like there was some good there - I think divorcing CBT from it's deeply capitalist uses can help to rediscover the actual self help in stoic philosophy, and your takes on the progressive side of stoicism really were interesting and useful. it comes down to, I think, making people feel powerless and then convincing them that that is strength, when in fact anger and frustration can be what causes us to change things, and we can change a lot more than we are told we can. So when my emotions are based on incorrect assumptions, I can be a stoic sage, and when my emotions are based on correct assumptions, I can be a revolutionary.
I guess it's a bit rambly, but such a great video would even make a sage happy. ;)
I feel like, while it probs has it's merits, CBT can function like gas lighting to a lot of folks in need. I also realized that when I honored my sensory needs and didn't insist on making myself feel bad on purpose, I was actually relaxed and calm for once!
Don’t be too hasty to throw your individuality away and live your entire life by the dictation of another. No different to swearing by a religion, you are comprised of all that you take in, don’t limit yourself to one avenue of thinking for its convenience.
The start of this made it sound like a CBT joke
@@theautisticguitarist7560 nailed it, I've been feeling like that ever since I got CBT as a kid, left me feeling like I was just broken (I have autism too and relate to the commenter). Thanks for putting it in smarter words than I could haha
@@superdrwholock were all taught to toughen up, and never to give ourselves what we want. It's a rough journey, but remember they are wrong, you are worth it.
this is one of the best videos of hers so far i think, love seeing the production quality get better and better, the philosophical arguments get more detailed, and the characters get more fleshed out!! long time viewer of the channel and continue to be blown away :)
Yeah, this is my favourite in a while. I especially like the stoic physics part!
happy ten years!!! your show is amazing and you provide such an incredible perspective to these conversations
Incredible video
Oh wow Ali abdaal
As a theologian, I super appreciate your discussion on stoic physics and the brief "bible studies tube". I knew logos was a term used in greek philosophy, but had no idea how directly John the Evangelist was adressing stoicism. Please never hesitate to add context that makes it easier to understand our own time.
Essentially ancients didn't understand what oxygen was and developed a ton of ideas like 'spirit', prana, chi, ka etc in the meantime and created a plethora of "life force" ideas, all of which were wrong.
Also, as she said, "like Seneca said, you shouldn't beat your slaves"...🙄 "Slaves be good to your masters and masters be good to your slaves" - Jesus Christ
I know a vomitorium was actually an architectural element to distribute crowds from an amphitheatre, but your "You too can take the tradwife movement to its logical conclusion by installing a vomitorium" was such an excellent line that I have been cackling about it and sharing your video (which is, I might add, excellent!) with friends to show them your video.
Ooh dang, I thought it was a puking room 😂 lmao thanks for the info
@@emilyrlnthe misconception comes from Vomit meaning leave or expel, more or less.
Thank you so much for your work, Abigail! I shed tears of joy when you celebrated your 10 years at the end! May your life force keep on giving to you and us all and may you always be happy!
@@Philosophytube2 What is it? 👀
I loved the whole thing, but that final comment about the shared culture of humanity really resonates with me. I've been doing some semi-stoic examination of my instinctive disgust for religion, and coming to terms with the irrationality of rejecting thousands of years of thought and philosophy only for being attributed to a certain faith. Thanks as always Abby
I'm so glad you brought up CBT, I'm a teenager whose done CBT and is into philosophy (evidently) and I immediately saw the parallels between CBT and stoicism. I'll be honest, though, CBT really didn't help me: I got better therapy from my dad. The main issue I find with it is the fact that if you are marginalised, actually, a lot of anxiety is justified on some level. I think a better way to look at and manage these feelings is to accept that yes, the world isn't great for many, but don't let that get in the way of trying to change it and still enjoying things. Not perfect obviously but it helps. I do find it useful to take elements of stoicism and try to adapt/live them out, though. Loved this video, thank you so much, and the production is amazing!
The aproach of recognising that things aren't great, and choosing to live your life anyway and find ways to feel fullfilled is basically ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy). If you want to get back into therapy at some point you might find that aproach helpful.
(I have had CBT myself and know what you mean about it being pretty rubish if your problems are related to being marginalised. My partner is currently having ACT and is finding it very helpful.)
I had the therapy and was told they couldn't teach it to me as I already thought in CBT (possibly stoic ?) terms. It is a balance as always, there are actions, influenced by thought, environment, social, culture etc . Sometimes the framework you use and believe to be who you are , is either worn out or broken. It's yen time to change one or more of the aspects of where you are.
@@SomeoneBeginingWithI Yeah, I find ACT really interesting but don't know loads about it. My mum's a psychologist and was talking to me about it the other day and it sounded like a much better approach for me. Thanks! :)
Yeah, I've also had my struggles with CBT. I've only done it at a clinic for a couple of weeks at a time and I really felt it's limitations there. At the moment I have the luxury to chose between a therapist who does CBT and a therapist who does depth psychology (kinda more like psychoanalysis) and I would have to stick with the 'school of therapy ' in order for insurance to cover it (I wouldn't be able to change directions halfway through or something). I like the CBT therapist more on a personal note than I like the other, but I really don't know what to do or which one to choose now.
I personally found CBT a pretty discouraging experience, because it felt like my emotions were being dismissed just for the sake of relieving my symptoms. It was like I was putting a tiny bandaid on a very, very, deep wound that was slowly sapping away at my will to live.
I personally am finding IFS therapy really useful. Generally experiential and/or compassion-centred therapies have been really healing for me.
I wish you the best of luck on your healing journey 💚 Take care!
My basic takeaway with Stoicism is that it can be helpful and reassuring, but is also very situational and shouldn't be treated as a one-size-fits-all solution to life's problems, despite it originally hyping itself up as such. I already felt that before I watched this video, but definitely felt reinforced in that belief afterwards
The modern interpretation of stoicism is a one-size-fits-all. You see a problem, you actually examine it before responding to it (if there is time.).You remind yourself that all of this will end. You learn to live and love the suffering that is needed. You develope the wisdom to understand what suffering is needed and what suffering demands courage to react. You learn to develope that courage. You try remain just to yourself and others. These are the tenets. I fail to see how this would be a bad philosophy for any person in any situation.
@@nihalh7601consider this: we aren’t robots
@@nihalh7601 The weakest points of stoicism comes from its rigidity and overapplication. Ancient stoicism strove towards virtue- alignment with nature- a sort of universal truth. Modern stoicism replaces the universe with 'reason' which is more subjective than the previous keystone and goes against the original intentions of the philosophy. Half formed dogma being carried out militantly in an evolving world can't be sustained in every sphere of life reasonably (lol). That's not to say that stoicism does not offer incredible comfortable in certain situations though. It helps develop self-discipline and reaffirms self autonomy. I just believe that it's a practice that's better suited to internal reflection/self help than interpersonal conflicts
@@greed9775beep beep bop bop
@@nihalh7601 The first problem is, that's certainly not how most people seem to be "doing" stoicism. Most people would say that stoicism leaves no room for outrage at social injustice, for instance. That would mean that your emotions are in control of you, which is in opposition to stoicism. But sometimes outrage is the right answer, because it's what forces others into action with you.
But even if we assume everyone will apply stoicism as you laid it out, consider people stuck in "impossible" situations. Maybe a child who is in an abusive home and doesn't know how to get help. What does stoicism do for them? Help them accept the abuse because to their eyes there is no other way and this is part of that "necessary suffering"? How are they going to find the courage to change their situation if their initial assumption is that it cannot be changed?
There are also those who because of their brain chemistry have an altered view of the world or are actually unable to control their emotions. Those people usually need someone from their lives to step in and force them in the direction of help - go to the doctor, or even force them into a psych hold if they're a danger. Left alone with stoicism, those people wouldn't even be able to apply it. If they could, it might even reinforce their delusions.
Stoicism has the base assumption that you are capable of accurately perceiving the world. If you can't, then stoicism doesn't work.
I maintain that there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution to anything. There are no "cure-alls". There are always fringe exception cases to any philosophy or remedy. That doesn't mean a particular philosophy is bad, or that it hasn't greatly improved many people's lives. Stoicism isn't bad, and it has been helpful to many people. It's just not the right answer for everyone.
I recently found your channel and you have given me hours of entertainment and education. I really appreciate your work 🙌 I haven’t laughed so hard while learning in my lifetime.
Just wanted to say that i stumbled onto this channel, and I am in deep love with every video I have watched thus far! Keep up the good work and congrats on being an award winning playright!
I'm a counseling intern - I personally think that CBT can be useful for initially lowering symptoms and learning to tune in to yourself and alter your self-talk, but if you there can be enormous value in eventually doing the deeper (and more emotional 😉) healing work of looking at the source of the problem, reparenting yourself, reprocessing, and learning some self-compassion. This can be *such* a gamechanger if you have the resources for it and can find the right therapist for this work. Self-love is a skill you can learn. You can learn how to get in touch with your authentic self. You can tend to the parts of you that freak out - they are probably trying to protect you the best way they know how, and they could use your care and attention. I just wanted to put out some hope and encouragement to get into therapy if anyone needed it.
Is it possible to do this stuff on your own? Or figure it out? Or do you rly need that other person 🤔🙁
@@sarahoshea9603 I do recommend that, if you can, you bring on a therapist - your progress will probably be faster as you will have a trained professional to guide you through the process and teach you skills, perspectives, and ideas you might not have known. However, if that's not an option you can still make some progress on your own for sure. You'd just have to be careful to vet your sources as there are always shady figures out there trying to make a buck. You can read about CBT as well as deeper work like IFS, reparenting, attachment, family systems/childhood trauma, and even psychodynamic stuff, and you can get a lot of that through your library.
@@obliviousred Adding on - DBT is also a super helpful School of thought, which is similar but not entirely the same as CBT. I was in an intensive outpatient program that taught a combination of CBT for thought challenging and DBT for more distress tolerance and radical acceptance and coping with trauma, among other things. There are many to try out and many that have both valuable and not-valuable elements.
Also side note - CBT is not recommended for active distress or moments of high emotion. You can’t really stop to assess the situation clearly if you are in the thick of the emotion, the brain literally is not in the right setting. That’s why distress tolerance and mindfulness are so important
Unfortunately I've always found the process of finding a good therapist to be akin to getting onto the NASA astronaut program as a penniless foreigner without a degree. In theory it's possible, if the stars are right and the Great Old Ones plunge from world to world through the sky, but planning your life around it is tragically optimistic. And every failed attempt comes with a huge financial and psychological cost that cannot realistically be borne. Certainly not repeatedly.
I've been in a lot of therapy over the years (mostly because of the emotional abuse and neglect I suffered during childhood) and I found that CBT only scated on the surface so no matter how much I changed how I thought about things, my trauma continued to resurface + I ended up staying in contact with abusive family members and friends for at least a decade longer than 'necessary'. I was even almost diagnosed with treatment resistant/chronic depression, because I just didn't get better.
All this didn't change until I found a great therapist who'd studied Jungian psychoanalysis and was more open to and trained in working with trauma and going deeper that I got better and I haven't been depressed since. Yes, I've been seeing her for more than a decade now which I know CBT claims is far too much, but it's actually making a difference and when we work on something it doesn't just get hidden away for a while to reappear at a later point - it gets *healed*.
CBT has useful elements imo - like knowing that your feelings and thoughts aren't always right, for example - but to me it should only be a smaller part of therapy, not all of it.
As a physics PhD student, it seems like a lot of these ideas about pnuemos are pretty similar to ideas about what we now call entropy.
It's a completely different framework of thinking, though.
If pneumos is good and more pneumos is good, then the ultra-rich are super-good.
I was thinking the same, but substituted pneumos with 'energy' and it largely checked out. They weren't super far off honestly
Well, negative entropy.
@@ThePrimevalVoid or I guess low entropy? It's like we're playing golf, less is better
As an also physics PhD student, I disagree.
This is the first time I watch your videos, I can’t believe how good it was, it felt like 5 minutos, I literally procrastinated everytime this appeared on my feed, you are a wonderful communicator, I’m gonna watch more of your videos RN!
This is probably one of the most comprehensive and engaging videos I've come across when it comes to Stoicism, very well done 💯
While we miss your brother, I think we can all say you're doing a fantastic job taking over after his tragic accident (covered in patreon-exclusive episode of Well There's Your Problem).
Ahahaha I love this take 😅
I laughed too much at that bit, too, because I used to be so confused - I came across Philosophy Tube just about a couple videos after Identity but for no particular reason that was one of the last videos I watched during my binge, and I was like "ok so there's a girl, and... oh over here there's a guy, ... so the channel has two hosts, yeah? ... Wait no, ... but they look fairly similar what is going on" until I eventually got to it and the penny in this obtuse wee brain finally dropped.
Anyway now my egg has cracked too lmao sooooo
@@narnigrin Getting transed by watching philosophy tube, my god the terfs were right!
;)
who needs to spend money on marketing with an audience like this😌
@@narnigrin Me: "I'm just so happy for Sophie From Mars and Abby for coming out! I'm just a cis straight guy who's super super super excited about them coming out!"
Me 2 Years Later as an Enby: "Oh."
I have had mixed feelings about stoicism, and ironically also CBT not knowing the connection between them. I felt this way because it seemed like it was telling me not to feel what I felt, that just by the magic of positively reframing my traumas, they would all but disappear. Today I know differently. I will probably never be a stoic for a number of other reasons, but I can better appreciate the thoughts behind it (barring all the problematic stuff).
sounds like you may like ACT therapy model.
CBT can be ok for some forms of trauma and anxiety. For more serious trauma, it can often do very little. For instance, using CBT therapy won't help much if you are constantly in situations where real, physical trauma is a daily reality.
@@BriarLeaf00 agreed! I tried cbt when I was in a bad situation that couldn’t just be reframed
@@BriarLeaf00 CBT is an excellent tool that can be used to address specifically the stupid little lies that our brain tells us. It's a tool that I believe everyone can and should use at some points. But it is ... just ... a tool and is far more limited than it's widespread application in mental health treatment (certainly here in the UK) suggests.
I've been assigned CBT treatment on multiple occasions, and all of those occasions, bar one (the one in which I internalised and understood the tool), were utterly pointless.
How many times are you going to teach me how to use a screwdriver before you acknowledge that it isn't the only thing needed to rebuild a derelict house?
@@TryinaD same. It made so many things worse and more entrenched.
The alternation between subject explanation and humour is amazing. Wonderful episode.
Congrats on the 10 year mark Miss Abigail Thorne! I’ve enjoyed your show and channel for the past few years and hope to do so for the years to come.
I have long struggled with identifying as a female Stoic given the barriers you mentioned, so I am very grateful you touched on them. In my experience, the 4 stoic virtues (moderation, courage, wisdom, and justice) were the north stars I followed whenever I felt lost and didn't have a strong sense of my own moral compass. I think this philosophy can be applied by everyone, no matter their age, gender, and background, but there is a great feeling of estrangement that comes with identifying as part of this community.
Pardon me but I don't think stoicism is suitable for women.
The stuff about controlling emotions is strangely told to every man in each and every culture,but women do have the freedom to express their feelings much more than us .
I think the fundamentals of stoicism don't align with feminine virtues.
@@mohinish2273 stoicism is for everyone. The principles of stoicism is something, everyone can benefit from. Various therapies such as CBT and DBT use stoic principles, that have benefited patients (men and women). In order to function as an adult in a society, everyone has to some extent, regulate their emotions. Men do have a have lot of freedom for express their emotions(especially anger), except for vulnerable emotions like sadness or crying.
@@mohinish2273 I understand where you're coming from, but in my opinion Stoicism is not about repressing emotions the way men are unfortunately taught to repress since childhood, it's about learning to ride the wave of unfortunate things that are inevitably going to happen in our lives without us losing our minds. It is a tool to help us reframe our view of the world, empower us to have control over our reality, and ease our anxieties. I don't see how this is gender-exclusive. When women can't manage their emotions, they're labelled "hysterical", when they do they're viewed as "masculine"...
@@carolinaaa99 thanks,but I still do think that women should have much more freedom than men to let their emotions loose.
@@mohinish2273 I totally get that, but my main comment was not about comparing men's and women's abilities to let their emotions loose, the conversation is about whether women can benefit from Stoicism, in my experience they absolutely can and should be welcome to. Your first comment (ie people dictating who benefits or not from practicing Stoicism) reflects exactly why I haven't felt welcome in this space.
I watched on Nebula. Fabulous. Watching again to feed the UA-cam algorithm monster. And also because Abi's always worth a second or third watch. ♥
You are awesome! Thank You for the past 5 videos I watched this week. Congrats on the 10yrs. ❤
Wow, this was fantastic. Witty, interesting, well-sourced, and funny. I'm so glad this video was recommended to me! Just subscribed
I'm sad all the time (PDD) and I had an abusive relationship that affected me for years afterward (my partner had BPD.) CBT helped me realize all of it for what it was, and helped me get rid of the unreasonable guilt I felt about everything, all the time. I'm still sad, but I know there's no "real" cause and I don't deserve to suffer poor treatment from anyone else.
I started watching this show shortly before Abigail revealed her relationship abuse. I saw her go all in on the show like never before, culminating in her public transition. It's been inspiring for me, a clinically depressed cis male. I don't know if a relationship is in my future as I'm getting older and really don't see it happening, but I've found that my work situation has improved dramatically because I've found the strength to stand up for myself. Oh yeah, and I'm constantly agitating all my coworkers to do the same.
To Abi, thank you for pouring your life out onto the Internet, it matters to more than just other trans people. With over a million subs, I'm sure I'm not the only "straight guy" here. Also, I'm getting evicted, too and it sucks. I'm moving back across the country because I'm over suffering in California. I hope you, too, are moving up, not just moving out.
Hey guy, I really hope your life gets better after your move, eviction is so scary.
Don't forget to agitate for public housing!
@@michalandrejmolnar3715 and land value capture
@@michalandrejmolnar3715 every fucking day comrade
@@dalailarose1596 thanks, Abi is getting the boot as well and I suspect it's for the same reasons
I genuinely love this channel. Not only because it is very fun and educational...but because this feels like a safe space and a place to learn without feeling misunderstood.
It is also incredibly inspiring to see how Abigail is thriving since start of her transition. It makes me so hopeful and happy❤ much love!!
It’s so hard to find funny, comprehensive, in-depth philosophy videos so I’m excited about finding your channel:) Also, you’re so stunning and the production quality is fantastic!!!!
A wonderful view of stoicism and incredibly strong humor! Thank you!
the Siopi bit made me laugh so hard. So accurate down to the shade of pink, and really up to date with the problem of corporate AI projects we see popping up all over recently. Excellent video as always
I was so insane to learn Latin for 7 years at school and even chose it as a main course at the end, we had Seneca and Stoicism and I hated it with a passion. But now thanks to you I understand the appeal of it and that there is more than just Senecas view.
Also your Siopi Interlude hit hard to home as I work for a digital therapeutics company and I often have second thoughts about it, even if it is not meant to replace therapy but only to support it. At the moment it feels more and more capitalist and less helpful to patients.
The name Siope is also a joke... it's Ancient Greek for "shut up".
_"For we English [people], being far northerly, do not open our mouths in the cold air wide enough."_
-- John Milton (1644) about English folks' pronunciation of Latin
No offense, I love this video, I've just found that quote and laughed my ass off.
so real
i had 6 years of high school latin and had stoicism at the end too (& only senecas view) but i actually enjoyed it because the teacher was so passionate about it :v
I am in my 11th year of Latin (doing a masters) and I have never gone near Seneca. Wonder if it’d be any fun.
Erudite presentation of the Stoics - captivating, great examples, and inspired insights! Thank you for these videos. And, yes, I totally dig your style 😊 Keep them coming.
😍👍
I insist: this has been one of the most enjoyable UA-cam experiences I’ve had. Plus, your thoughts on women and stoicism were so refreshing.
Happy birthday to your channel🎉🎉
I had CBT with an old classmate organised by my school. I enjoyed it a lot, but edmittedly it was mainly because it got me to befriend the classmate better and I got a quiet 1 hour "break" from the normal school hours.
When it comes to the actual cbt... well. It obviously has benefits. It taught me some techniques to calm down and physical brain function related to anxiety and such.. but it always rubbed me the wrong way slightly that it doesn't acknowledge that some mental issues aren't fully controllable. I have sensory issues, trauma, anxiety attacks, panic attacks etc etc. Many things that are affected by external factors. It genuinely felt slightly demeaning to be told that my anxiety and stress to be boiled down to understand the reality and thinking of the situation correctly.
It wasn't horrible or anything, it was mostly positive. But it was a small aspect that made it hard for me to connect to the exact material.
Cock and Ball Torture did all that? Wow
Your school did cock & ball torture? 😳
God I wish there was a different acronym for that.
Agreed. It's like going from relatives saying "well, have you tried not being depressed?" To a supposed professional saying "well, have you tried choosing not to be depressed?"
@@lukeman9851 Dumb analogy. CBT is the only scientific paradigm in psychology and metanalysis proves it's actually capable of helping people, unlike other approaches in Psychology
Congrats on 10 years of PT!
As someone who considers himself rather sensitive stoicism has always struck a bad chord to me because it's never made sense to divorce one's feelings from their judgements. There are lots of cases where we should try but our feelings aren't unknowable, illogical things, just complicated and often hard to articulate. I do like the idea of assessing where those strong emotions come from, and the acceptance that many are self-imposed or at least perpetuated. But I think there's a reason why the philosophy has a larger following of people who feel like they belong to the ruling group of society. When the world already grants you so much power and authority there's not much more you can control, especially directly, than your own feelings.
Just realized that Philosophy Tube has been in my life for about ten years and how much I appreciate that.
Abigail Thorn, I’m so happy to have come across your content on stoicism! You’re terrific!
The crossover from Stoicism to CBT became clear to me a few years back when I also left an abus1ve relationship (and by the grace of the Algorithm stumbled on one of your videos in a perfectly timed moment), and the exercise of interrogating my emotional responses has been an absolute game changer across my life. Not least of which because I was able to go back in time, mentally, and ask "where did this idea come from?" as you might say, and also because while "your feelings are valid" remains a true statement, "your feelings are backed by reality" is up for debate!
Peeling back all the layers to find the source of a feeling and choose, actively, to accept it or redirect it is amazing.
That distinction you made is so important. Your feelings are valid. You are having them. But then to go that extra step and say, but where are these feelings coming from? What do they mean to me? What is my experience around them? Do they match up to the experiences or am I imprinting other assumptions and meanings that are interpretation rather than presentation? That’s so powerful to find your way there.
Read up on REBT / Rational Emotive Behavior therapy. Albert Ellis, the creator of REBT, one of the earliest forms of CBT, said he was inspired by Stoicism
What would be the judgment behind a fear? Not a fear of something you believe is dangerous, just a fear of something random. For instance I’m afraid of mold (including non-toxic kinds) and I know people who are afraid of (non-venomous) spiders and snakes. There seems to be no judgment at all behind fears like that because we DON’T believe those things can harm us, we’re just afraid of them. I’m very aware that moldy bread can’t harm me, arachnophobes are very aware that common house spiders can’t harm them, etc. Are those just evolutionary instincts so old that there’s no individual judgment involved, just ‘your ancestors survived because they avoided something like that while some of their friends didn’t’?
Regarding the Passivity Problem, appreciating the difference between control and influence has helped me immensely (although I am definitely not a Stoic). It's true we can only control our own reactions to things, as we can't truly control anything external, but we do have influence---in frustratingly different levels. Just because I accept I can only control myself doesn't mean I should accept a lack of influence over the world.
I have never intentionally studied Stoicism, but last year when Roe was overturned, it had a major effect on me. 2022 was a year of major self reflection regarding my depression and Roe tipped me over the edge. To move forward in one piece I had to personally accept how little *control* I had over the future and my worst nightmares coming true. It was a form of internal liberation to understand that even though some in the govt may want to intentionally make people suffer, no matter what they do they can never take away my power over my own reactions to things, my choice to find happiness.
Ever since, I have been a much happier person as if I've found a center within myself that balances everything, although it's taken work to maintain.
I didn't realize until today this was related to Stoicism but it makes sense. I don't agree personally with the detachment parts of Stoicism for myself, but it's been great to learn more. Also this was a wonderful video as always!💖
Thank you so much for everything, I really like your new name 🌷 I will subscribe soon to your Patreon, when I get a job. You have quintessential element of surprising with gentleness in your way of presenting harmony. Your take on things melts away dichotomy.
I want to thank you for citing your sources. I'm having a lovely time reading up on this
CBT is the only therapy that works for me. I find it incredibly difficult to express how I'm feeling and often dont even recognise my own emotions (it's possibly a nuerodiverse issue). Working through the process in such a structured and paced out way helped me so much and gave me the proper tools to cope with what are in fact quite strong emotions.
I think the obvious conclusion with this stuff is just that people have different brain processes and therefore need different ways to manage themselves in life. It sounds like I strive for something similar to stoicism but thats because it's appropriate for my emotions - I have to think about them objectively to process them. Whereas I know some people have to express their feelings to process them, and thats fine too, just as long as they're not putting themselves in a position to hurt others.
Cock and Ball Torture???
It sounds like a great option. But that begs the question; what do Mario and Luigi think of CBT?
How does cock and ball torture help?
I feel like this very good video plays quite nicely with a thing I heard in the recently-started psychoanalysis podcast Ordinary Unhappiness, where they're talking about the usefulness but insufficiency of CBT, where, as they put it, CBT will get you out of bed...but what then? If our psychological particulars go deeper into ourselves and further out from ourselves, hyper-focusing our attention on jury-rigging a subset of our thought processes to avoid short circuits presents a very impoverished sphere of concern for dealing with our minds and our selves. As the video points out, it can keep us productive (and can be partially automated by those who would like us to stay productive), but forgoing more rigorous solutions to psychic pain can mean forgoing avenues to genuinely better emotional lives. This is also a problem that, as the video makes clear, can be levelled at the very vulgarised "Business Secrets of the Pharaohs"-style version of stoicism being peddled in the airport bookshops and on gribdset podcasts.
I have had a lot of bad therapist's since I was 8 so I pushed it away during most of my life the therapist who really helped me besides my dad who is a licensed therapist . is my therapist who practices ACT therapy which has changed my life sadly she started doing private marriage and family therapy . I saw her at county health from 24-25. really helped me I need to see a new therapist I am in limbo. I can't put it all on my dad but dang he has done so much . I need a proper therapist because it is kinda not recommended!!!lol
This is so well put. I think one problem is that stoicism suggests that the only way to lead a “good life” is to essentially make yourself happy via actively sort of policing your thoughts and beliefs and re-working them. Sometimes your beliefs are correct, though, and your strong reaction (which may be negative) is warranted, and thus the “rational” thing is to feel the strong emotion. Climate change is horrifying. The death of a loved one is horrifying. Experiencing the fullness of that emotion is not irrational, and distancing yourself from it might help you cope, but ultimately the terrible thing still happened, or is still happening, and that matters too.
Stoicism sort of forgets what we owe one another, I think? Abigail mentioned the bit about putting the collective first as being part of stoicism, part of its view of human nature, but ultimately stoicism assumes that each individual is responsible for their own happiness, which leads to the conclusion that I do not owe it to you to create a better world because your happiness is your responsibility. I cannot make you happy, and thus I need not try to make the world better. This seems to me to be what led Stoics to feel few misgivings about subjugating others, and what makes stoicism particularly appealing to people in positions of power (eg. it’s becoming popular among misogynist men today) - my job is to make me happy, their job is to make themselves happy. It’s not someone else’s situation (which I may be helping to create or continue) that makes them unhappy, it’s their judgements. We do not owe them equality. The only thing I need give anyone is philosophy, reason, logic. The tools of “correct” reasoning which they can use to sort out their unhappiness for themselves and “live better” (for women, better serve their husbands).
Stoicism can certainly help an individual to find peace and keep moving, but if we rely too heavily on stoicism alone, we forget about the big goals. Equality, justice, freedom. Those should be virtues. Those should be discussed in therapy, too. Not just “how can you accept your reality and keep going” but “what kind of person do you want to be” and “what do you hope to accomplish with your life.” That stuff is what keeps me going, and it’s what my first therapist asked me that led to my first eureka moment where suddenly I saw all these open doors in front of me. “Who do you admire, and what do they do that you admire? Could you do that? Could you help others, speak out against injustice, work to make the world a better place?” It helped me find purpose. CBT can help you keep moving, but goals and values are what guide what you move towards.
The Star Wars theme during the Logos (Force) part, references like DBZ, the clothes, etc. The extra mile indeed. Great content!
Thank you, you point out 2 aspects of ancient stoics I've never thought about 💭
I cannot express how much I miss regular talk therapy. CBT is so highly regarded that we have kinda fallen off of traditional talk therapy. Sometimes people just need to talk and be led to conclusions that allow them to heal.
I actively dislike cbt because I kept being redirected to it. Me saying that it didn't work one bit for me didn't stop the pressure to go for it.
Finally, I'm just doing talk therapy and it's great.
Got a smile from this one. Went the Stoicism route during my teenage years and while it helped for a few years I hit the passivity bump. My response was "fine I can't have things for myself but I can make others happy by helping." I can make a wave even if the ripples never return to me. Long story short, tapping into the feels again and fighting hard for things. I feel less tired and spent and have myself on a track to have somethings to look forward to for myself. Have the most wonderful healthy love with me for this time. I've never felt better and look forward to the adventures ahead. Thanks Abby for all your work it has helped me more times than I'd care to admit.
@Raven of Erin - Lovely!
Can you elaborate what you mean by 'passivity bump'?
Stoicism is wishful thinking and make believe, trys to convince that all the vicissitudes of fate and fortune can be conquered with virtue , its bullshit , read what bertrand russell and Nietzsche had to say about it , power and virtue are definitely not synonymous!!
I used to work very much in the moment. Work more and don't cause a fuss. Do what needs to be done now. Push down any emotions that got in the way. Took up smoking when things got too much. In general stunted my potentials. Intense passion is a part of life. Anger, joy, love, sadness, on so on are all viable things to feel. Repression and forced passivity leads to just constant anxiety that becomes the new norm. The passivity problem. Accepting things as they are without question or action.
@@ravenoferin500 i think what you deacribed is the opposite of stoicism. Stoicism is all about being pro active and being honest about your emotions. Many people mistake it to be about 'suppressing emotions', when infact, it is about rationalizing out negative emotions. Negative emotions are nature's crude way of communicating with others and asking for help. They may not always be the most rational response.
Example: Your partner has a habit that drives you crazy. What shoulf be your response to it?
1. Being passive and saying nothing. Holding the anger in. Because of the anger it causes you, it just lowers the standard of your life, and one day, all that anger will come steaming out at once. This is one of the worst response.
2. Expressing your anger everytime they do it. Ruins both your and their day. A person is unlikely to change their habits when being told through anger. Again, not the best option.
3. Rationalize. Everyone has atleast a few bad habits. Me included. I should first try to do everything in my power, and explain their bad habit to them and try to help them overcome it. If they do, great. If they don't, no one is perfect. Think about all the things they bear about you. And then monitor your emotions honestly. Do you still get angry? If yes, then you cant rationalize their behavior. You have done everything in your power. Be pro active, and explain to them why this relationship isnt working, and leave. THIS is what stoicism means.
Stopped mid-video to say how much I am enjoying it. This is brilliant and so enjoyable to watch thank you