The “girlboss” segment is absolutely terrifying. I feel like abigal thought: “what is the most modern incarnation of evil and oppression with a pretty face that I can put onscreen” and the first thought was “silicon valley startup”.
I thought the same. This segment is, for lack of a better word, brutal. It could almost be a stand-alone video in my opinion: there's much to dissect from it, it cuts right through what patriarcapitalism does.
it's the rotten core of all silicon valley startup people. if you make a tech startup to make the world a better place, you will make it a worse place. Disrupting an industry kills jobs, and more often than not, people by proxy. the media has tried to condition us to view these people as noble, but they're disgusting.
Yes, and frighteningly realistic, too! Which makes it all the worse/better. Abigail is a phenomenal writer. So many layers, so much subtext. (Also, that part where Kelly Slaughter said "female-identified" first made me go, "cool, they're inclusive to trans people!" Followed immediately by, "...wait, is that TERF-speak?" Because, y'know, "Trans-Identified Male/Female" and all that. Can someone help me out here? Was she being transphobic, inclusive, or some strange mix?)
@@yuuri9064 I think the fact that she's vaguely in a space that could be interpreted as either progressive or regressive is the point. It's a non-answer that still says a lot.
"You would be surprised how much a little hormone can change your body! Though if you can't make your own, store-bought is fine!" This. Line. Is. Amazing.
"We encourage all our customers to be responsible with their shopping" in such an underrated line. Every corporation says the same thing. "We know we're profiting off exploiting people, but it's actually their fault for being exploited."
It's also a window into the mindset of these people. They've convinced themselves the issue is one of discipline and somehow imagine that they themselves would somehow be immune to their own coercive tactics, even though that almost certainly isn't true. But they don't want to take into consideration is that their status has nothing to do with "discipline" but more to do with connections, systems of prejudice, and luck.
I think the trend of thin women using love of food as a personality trait is really telling, because it proves how ingrained those standards of femininity are in us. It's not enough to be thin, you have to be thin effortlessly, without depriving yourself of anything. Because making an effort to abide by beauty standards is seen as weak, antifeminist, but at the same time being 'ugly' is still unacceptable.
It reminded me of Gone Girl's 'Cool girl' monologue. "Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who [...] jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot."
That "I'm a feminist but I'm not political" statement from Kelly Slaughter ran ominously realistic, in this post-Ivanka Trump era. No actual feminist would ever say that, but lots of high-profile, upper-class, white women (who think "feminism" simply means achieving success for yourself, without questioning any existing systems, while female) often do, unironically, say stuff like this. Feminism is inherently political. It may not be a matter of parties, but it is always a matter of politics.
Agreed. I grew up hearing from my grandparents "You NEVER talk religion or politics, it's rude", and I feel that attitude is what has lead us to this place. The thing is, much like Feminism, EVERYTHING is political. How do you feel about the healthcare system? How do you feel about your job, pay, and working conditions? How do you feel about being able to choose what medical procedures or medication is most appropriate for your situation? How do you feel about having utilities? Getting an education? Having access to the internet? It's ALL politics, it all affects politics/policy, and politics/policy affects them as well. It is impossible to separate the world and reality from politics. And not being allowed to question religion just lead to the rampant, unquestioned abuses by people under the guise of "but I did it for muh gawd!" Anyone who says they "aren't political" are either cowards, lying, ignorant, or they can financially afford to ignore the politics around them.
Exactly. She captured the essence of the white upper class women that would hold this idea. Anyone outside of that criteria would be faced with politics that include them.
"Knowing something is wrong and believing it anyway" brings me back to the first time I tried to talk about my anorexia with a therapist. I'm skinny. She was fat. When she asked me - kindly, patiently - what I thought was wrong with being fat, I couldn't think of a rational explanation as to how I both thought that she and every other fat person in the world weren't doing *anything* wrong and were in fact beautiful and wonderful people, and yet I was scared of putting on weight myself. It can become sort of an inverse of Naomi's experience - instead of believing that you are a victor where everyone else has failed, you can become trapped by your ideal self in the idea that you are uniquely wrong.
You just helped me finally understand a key part of my wife’s personality. I’ve tried to use this logic with her and it never sticks. Just makes her more ashamed. Like thinks now she’s not only a failure but she’s a hypocrite too. And also mean and judgmental. Maybe it’s never going right make sense because these are emotions and not logical values.
As a women in tech, that CEO bit made me die a little on the inside. That this is what is shown as "success" to us, that this is the "ideal". If we don't overwork ourselves and forget about everything and everyone else in our lives, and look good while doing it, we'll never make it. Also was cheering that Abi ate the cake!
I kept expecting her to eventually remember her children and say that’s her other passion (even as a cover) but nope. My mama heart also died a little. Whew that character was a little too well done!
@@GuyNamedSean Oh my god, the bits about maternity leave were genuinely horrifying. Like, she mentioned being in the office the day after giving birth, and I was like, does... does your job not require you to sit down? Or stand up? And then she mentioned "leading by example," and an employee who wanted maternity leave, and I was like, "oh, fuuuuuu--"
Its like girlboss feminism merely switches the "ideal self" from one of conventional beauty and feminity with an equally toxic one of constant grinding and productivity "against all odds". In both cases, there is genuine pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, the latter being "successful" despite being a women, but is ultimately unfulfilling, unattainable and causes so much pain
The 180k in her bank account is what REALLY killed me. Like, there's some plausible deniability and simple ignorance from graduating an Ivy League school (maybe) but to say that you're at the bottom with THAT much money is some astounding ignorance, almost willful.
I think it's a nod to bill gates dropping off an expensive college to a job his mommy landed him into in IBM. At least his a little bit honest in this, he always says people shouldn't drop out off school follow his steps, because he just got lucky with it.
I am a high school philosopher teacher and I must say that this channel has saved my job many times. I have studied philosophy and I understand it... but this channel, this show, has helped me so much to explain to my students concepts and topics and problems... and, even better, how they can see it applied in our daily life. In high school, they don't care about philosophy concepts or all the white men behind them unless is something that affects them directly. So this channel has made me land those so complex concepts to what they are actually interested in: themselves. Thank you, Abigail.
“Apart from work what are you passionate about?” When I worked in Silicon Valley I would ask people at parties “what do you like to do for fun?” and consistently they would look at me and be a bit dazed. Like they hadn’t thought of such a thing in a long time. They usually didn’t have any answer. So that question really does hit spot on. 👌🏼
I remember another video that For Harriett did that talked about how a lot of people ask about "What's your job?" and it's terrifying in the other way cuz they're looking to some degree for you to say work so they feel validated in building THEIR entire life around work and good L*rd the codependency :(
I have seen a couple women on dating sites have in their profiles "I'm an adult. I don't have hobbies." I really do not see how people can just live life with. Othing other than work. Yet, that is very much how society seems to be pushing people, not just women, but everyone.
in many ways the toxic work culture, most noticeable in Japan, also effects many other modern nations like the US. part of the underlying effects of a hyper-capitalist system. money is god, and work is one of the only legitimate ways to make it. worshiping in the factories..
Just as a different perspective, I sometimes freeze when I'm asked that question in a professional context because I don't really want to share my private hobbies in an office setting. I sew and don't particularly want to get bombarded with requests for free clothing repairs, I'm an activist in the BDSM community and that subject isn't really appropriate for work, and I'm a singer but I haven't done so in a while and do NOT want to be asked to sing impromptu (which has happened). But, I think what you're getting at is also totally a thing, and I'm not trying to disagree with you, just add my own experience.
"there is a dark, addictive pleasure in being a little facist towards yourself" Hell. I mean. I knew this. I knew this since i was a teenager. But this is the first time I've heard someone say it and... it kinda hit me. Yeah.
I've always said "self destruction can be very seductive," but I think I meant it more the way Abby worded it....and yes, to hear someone else say it, made me feel understood in a way I wish I hadn't, and definitely hit me.
I don't know. Obviously people can go too far with controlling how they eat but in 2021 in the West and especially in the US, where food is cheap and everywhere, I kinda think some ability to control urges for food is useful. At what point is controlling eating "fascist" and at what point is it a healthy response that allows us to not die prematurely in an environment where food that is designed in a lab to be addictive is constantly thrown in our faces?
@@ace625 I think you're hitting an absolutely crucial point, which in the video is completely missing (with all the political economy behind the issue), thus it comes damn close to mistaking consumerism for progressivism! These are all just half-truths, because in nowaday's capitalism we have to manoeuvre through the double bind of both being incentivized to obsess over health, fitness, ego-managerialism and destructive beauty standards AND to binge away on addictive consumer goods, which ruin your health and facilitate apathy and a retreat to the comfort zone! If taken one-sidedly, both can conveniently be interpreted as "empowerment".
And the video is about beauty and the mirror is sorounded by beauty-products. This channel is one of the reasons i think that UA-cam Videos have a future as art
Oh, that's a great observation! Any thoughts on how the housewife character's scenes got a bit more colourful at times, but also went back to full greyscale? Oh, and I saw the cardboard cutout as a symbol of making people feel like they're always being watched. She refers to the cutout several times, never forgetting it, but also treating the cutout as a person (i.e like it was real). So she acts like she's being watched. Of course, there was an implied film crew, but I have no idea how it would fit into this.
I feel like being a feminist isnt really very political if we take away all the pazzazz and stereotypes and feminist extremists. Politics shouldnt have much to do with morals. And at its core, being feminist is just believing in equality. Thats like saying being racist is political, when in reality its just being an asshole.
Is there any greater contribution to philosophy than the Twin Boats Thought Experiment? He was bold enough to actually use two boats of people who could have killed each other for it.
Any time I explain my eating disorder, I have to go into really graphic details about how bad it was, because when people hear that a fat girl once lost 100 pounds their first assumption is that she regrets gaining 200 back. Not that she was already malnourished before what she did to lose the 100.
(Also, my health is way better now. I had to drop out of college back then, but now I'm looking into grad school (which is less work-related than it sounds, I'm just a nerd :P ). x3 )
"It feels like if I'm fat then I'm going to be disqualified from having gender." Whew, this one hit hard. As an obese ciswoman, I have often felt what I usually call involuntary androgyny, where I'm not recognized as a woman because I do not have a "proper" woman shape. I've been misgendered a lot because of it, and would often go out of my way to wear makeup and more feminine clothing (which is a whole other thing for obese women) in order to essentially more easily be identified as a woman by strangers, even if it's not what I wanted to do. Obese women's bodies are not recognized in society as women's bodies.
Thank you for putting to words something that I couldn’t until I read your comments. It’s true, overcompensating for my “unfeminine” fat body is something I feel like I need to do, and I feel so much guilt when I feel like I fail at it.
I know I might get a lot of hate from this but this isn't anyone's fault. There are ceratin biological indentifiers to tell a woman from a man and vice versa. The most telling thing are body proportions. I also have problems indentifying the gender of a morbidly anorexic person (I have been in a psychiatrie for a year, so I have seen a lot of them). If your body doesn't have the body proportions that it would have by exhibiting generally healthy behaviour or being generally healthy in terms of metabolism, it is no wonder that people can't identify your gender for sure. This does not by any means mean that they see you as less of a woman/man once they know what you are.
@@pinkmuffin9842 I don't think the point is so much that there's someone to blame for the situation arising, as it is that the way we react to the situation arising is pretty shocking. Like, I'd make the case that the sidelining and ignoring of fat people (especially fat women, except as spectacle) is one of the things that makes it more difficult to recognise gender signifiers that aren't for stereotypical slim people. I'd also question your logic in pointing out 'healthy' weights (as far as I can tell, weight is how much you weigh and has only a weak correlation to health); gender has nothing to do with health, and it would feel very mean-spirited to tell a chemo patient "no wonder nobody can tell you're a woman, you've got no hair!" But really I think the main point is, as Abigail says in the video (and asiina and Myra and other point out in the comments), it's about a voice from inside and out telling you you can't be attractive or even really a full person, not (just) that you can't have a gender.
@@sophcw I never said they had. I said that body proportions are an important factor to differentiate the sexes, just like an Adam's apple will tell you that you most likely have a man in front of you. But if you are trying to argue that people with xx-chromosomes (historically referred to as women) aren't overall similar compared to the differently built xy-people (commonly known as men), I can't help you or argue with you. But please, if body types don't matter, why would trans women get surgery/take hormones in order to get a bigger chest? If there aren't biological identifiers for male or female, why would they bother transitioning?
Thank you for this video, Abigail. I'm a man and a strength coach / mixed martial arts coach, who has just started to work with more women who want to learn how to fight, get physically fitter, or train to lift weights safely. A lot of the time a negative body image comes attached with these desires (from all genders I work with). It is heart breaking, to tell you the truth. This video, which I'll re-watch a few times I'm sure, has given me more insight into understanding how to approach their needs. I'll be honest, at times it has been a little upsetting listening to clients talk about themselves. I do my best to remain professionally, but tell them I'm the wrong person if they think I'm going to agree with how they're speaking about themselves. Personally, I do this job to help people feel empowered, stay safe, and have fun. So people can see their bodies as something to celebrate and enjoy, not punish with exercise or dieting. To be clear, I'm not a 'weight loss' coach nor would I like to be. I've suffered from body dysmorphia myself in the past and developed what was clearly an eating disorder to make weight for competitions most weekends. Obviously, this isn't about me though, it is about the people I serve. So, thank you for this video. It will certainly help my clients... And myself included - beard, muscles, and the rest of it. (Apologies for a self-indulgent comment. Just wanted to say thanks as I've been watching since lockdown 1, but never commented.)
"As a woman, if I am fat, it feels like I am disqualified from having gender." This brought actual tears to my eyes. As an AFAB person currently grappling with gender questions, I have frequently had to ask myself "Am I non-binary, or do I just feel like I'm failing to perform womanhood because I am fat?" I still don't have an answer.
@Dan Konnman I wouldn't say I dropped it like dropping a hat. It only occurred after decades of trying to be a man and failing, and after trauma. But regardless of the reasoning behind why my gender identity changed, change it did. And I'm happier this way.
One example of how deep the pressure for women goes: I was showing my mom an outfit for a wedding and her first response was: "I don't like it. It makes you look huge! It's so unflattering. You should go with something else." And I was like, "I'm 32 weeks pregnant?!"
It was only in moving away from my family that I was able to start dressing in a way that felt right to me. And on the occasions when I see my mother and she says something like that, I now have the confidence to say, “Yes. I look fat in this outfit, because I’m fat. There isn’t going to be less of me if I wear a different outfit.” I’ve also come to realize that the people who are most disgusted by fat people who don’t try to cover up and hide themselves feel that way because they would hate themself if they were fat and don’t understand how someone could be fat and joyful.
This is why I'm TERRIFIED of inviting my mother to my wedding. I was a bridesmaid for my best friend's wedding a few years ago and when my mum saw the pictures on Facebook she said "Your hairstyle made you look old." Thanks Mum.
I've thought a lot about how this subject relates to me as a cis Black woman and how culture really brings a lot of conflict to the conversation. I'm expected to eat and be thick BUT only in certain places. Like being impossibly thin is more so a stigma in the Black community ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NO ASS. You can have no tits, an average face, even a tummy in come cases but GOD FORBID you don't have an ass. And now since the ideal body type is being slim thick the relationship between women and food along with procedures like Brazilian butt lifts is just a vortex of pressure and confusion.
If that's the people you want to attract. You could just be at a healthy weight with a little butt and find someone who isn't controlled by society. I realize that is hard in a Black community but their are outliers.
I'm sorry you're experiencing this. That ideal has invaded mainstream (white) culture. We know the mainstream steals black culture, whether that's positive or negative aspects. A body type that less than 10% (that's my estimation, not science backed) naturally have. It's nearly impossible without surgery to have a big ass, tiny waist and big boobs. Boobs and butts are fat. When you put on fat you don't get to decide where it goes. I blame the Kardashians and Brazilian butt lifts. A body type only achievable for the rich.
@@redfacegaming7727 you.... don't actually know what the op is talking about do you? this isn't about a slim subset of people who have a toxic idea. this is the general vibe that is put on every seingle person and stays there until the individual makes a concited effort to break away from it and even then the residue lingers. you don't 'attract' mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins and the like but they are also there. you can't cut out every single business from grocers to schools to government offices and, unless you live away from all humans, you are not able to deflect socially cast stigmas and preconceptions of visual acceptability, fuck the op can't even get away from it in their comment because here you are trying to make this about individual willpower while also making an unnecessary dig about 'healthy weight'.
Ignore that racist asshole Red Face. It's not the same since I am not Black, but in Latin America the beauty standard is quite similar. That surgery is called a BRAZILIAN butt lift after all. It's an impossible standard.
@@wickjezek1101 For women aged 20-Over 60, the 'excellent' range for body fat percentage is 14-23.2%. Below 14% is considered unhealthy and it's 8% for a man.
"I was in labor but I'm not working" is such a brilliant line. Despite literally being called "labor," literally GIVING BIRTH AND CREATING ANOTHER PERSON is not as seen as "work" if it doesn't contribute to the standard of clout-gaining "work" set by this hustle culture. She interpreted "WHAT drives you?" as her driver, showing that she sees this service worker as a "what" and not a "who." Amazingly written, Abby.
Exactly! It's so incredibly patriarchal, that the incredible physical and emotional sacrifices that women make to have children is completely undervalued and not seen as labor or worthy of having protections. I'm not saying that women are better or deserve to be put on a pedestal or something for having children (as I know someone in the comments is going to try to straw man to miss my point), but just that those sacrfices (and dangers) are completely ignored, the epitome being that we have piss poor family leave policies (in the U.S. at least) and women are expected to go back to work instead of phsyically recovering and bonding with their baby.
I know this is by and large talking about fatness as women experience it, but as a man who has been fat for just about as long as I can remember, this spoke to me quite deeply. For most of my life, I've felt like a non-entity because I'm fat. More than being disqualified from gender I just... I felt disqualified from practically all social interactions. I felt, still feel often, that I shouldn't be perceived, that I was not a person that should be befriended or loved or desired. I felt, and still often feel, repulsive, off-putting, lucky to only be ignored. And when I did end up getting attention, it scared me. It didn't make sense, it made me think I was being made a joke of, pranked or something. Even now, as a grown man, sometimes getting positive attention from people feels wrong, it makes my heart race and I find myself looking for the nearest exit. I still struggle with the self-esteem problems from growing up like that. The shame is powerful, I think a lot of folks don't realize just how powerful it is. It has defined and controlled the vast majority of my life thus far, and I'm not fully out from under its shadow.
I remember how people started treating me nicer after I lost weight, at first it was great but it saddened me to realize that it was just because of internalized fatphobia. You’re valid just the way you are Zetch, I hope you find yourself out of that shadow one day soon and are happy with who you are
Likewise, your comment was about your experience as a fat person, but as a trans person I personally deeply related to the feelings you described, as I frequently find myself feeling inhuman, and wishing I could never be perceived. They're obviously not the same thing, but with transness being so often tied to one's body and appearance, I feel kinship with the fight of fat activists, as I feel both trans liberation and fat liberation are intrinsically connected. From what I've seen, many experiences that trans people have, namely with regards to medical care, mirror those of fat people- like with what we like to call the "trans broken arm syndrome". I think this quote by Marsha P. Johnson is relevant: "No pride for some of us without liberation for all of us." Thank you for your comment, and have a nice day :)
@@Joe-vm6ds Agreed. I was furious with how a couple of my guy friends at university who had previously treated me like 'just one of the boys' suddenly tried to Netflix and chill me or make out when they got me alone after I lost weight. The worst part is they KNEW me as a person and still didn't have sexual/romantic feelings towards me until I lost a bunch of weight (50lbs). So who I am was never good enough, I had to be thin to be acknowledged as a woman and my value as a person validated. Fuck I hate the way this world/biology/cismen work. -____- I've decided to be happy with who I am at any size and simply stop dating.
@@Joe-vm6ds people will also often treat you better after you quit smoking. Because people don’t like having to deal with the health problems of those around them.
While the video was supposed to be about food, it's amazing how hard the exact same concepts hit me as a survivor of religious trauma and extremely fundamentalist religion. The unattainable ideal self. The sense of pleasure and superiority in self-denial. The psychology feels like it's exactly the same for some reason.
there was actually a sort of idea in the middle ages of women becoming saintly or godly through specifically denying themselves the "pleasure" of eating. they would be touted as unattainable paragons of beauty and saintly suffering and ideal temperament and discipline. so the link between denying the precise "pleasure" of eating and religion is very old. i mean one of the worst sins is labelled "gluttony"....
I know UA-cam is, ugh, so fraught when it comes to commenting, but I did want to share my personal journey with finding real REAL joy with being fat. Here goes: I got my eating disorder from my mother. The list of foods I was not allowed to eat as a child was longer than the list of foods I was allowed to eat. I was never allowed cake or soda even on my birthday. The one time my mom packed me lunch it was wholemeal bread with one tiny slice of turkey and piled with alfalfa sprouts with no mustard or mayo or anything. And an apple. Dinner growing up was often a bowl of rice and stir fried lettuce. And this was only ONE part of the child abuse I experienced from my Mom. Food was always about denial and punishment and discipline; all that jazz. And then............ I got the amazing blessing of raising a child. I expressed so much of my love for her through food and cooking. I made roast chicken and mashed potatoes and gravy from scratch. I cooked cute little bento boxes with pandas made out of rice and nori and little weenie frank squids and yellow egg omelette cut to look like stars. I made cakes and cookies and all of it was love. I also got fat. And I hated it about myself for so long, until I realized that what I actually value in life--what really makes me smile and feel genuine joy--is making delicious food for my family and the people I care about. There's love in that food, just like there's love in my belly and back fat and double-chin. Every excess pound on my body is made out of the love I have for my family, and the love I wish I'd had as a child. In feeding my family love through my homemade oatmeal chocolate chip cookies, I was also feeding myself love. I always thought that if I was thin enough, my mom would one day love me. But what I didn't realize until so recently is that my big bum and curves shows that I always had enough love in my body for my beautiful family and for myself.
Thank you for being such an incredible role model to your child & breaking the cycle of intergenerational food restriction/fatphobia. I wish my mother shared your beliefs when I was growing up
My situation is a little different but this resonates with me so much. I’m from a culture where food has a central place and carries a lot of meaning. I’ve recently moved to a different country to escape political persecution. When people ask me what I miss most about home, I would say the food. Some would think that it’s pure hedonistic pleasure, don’t you have more important things to worry about? But food means gathering with your friends and family, it means sharing and gifting. It’s happiness and love. And to be able to be safe at home with people that you love and share a meal together means freedom. I know it sounds quite exaggerated but I miss my friends and family so much. I’m so glad that you have developed a good relationship with food and prioritise joy despite your mom. I’m sure that your kids can feel the love and warmth you put into every meal.
As a linguist: The American accent with the vocal fry during the Fierce Interview is absolutely mind-melting. As a recovering anorexic: Seeing you eat that cake brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.
Her accent there fascinated me too, it’s like an uncanny valley for certain dialects (not a knock at all abigayles regular voice is lovely) if you wouldn’t mind answering are there some things you noticed that you can point out that make it sound weird? I tried to pinpoint WHY it sounded so close but not quite there but didn’t have the knowledge to articulate it lol
That's so interesting! As someone whose second language is English, I struggle with telling some accents apart, especially American ones. So, I did notice something about that scene, but until I read this comment, I was quite sure I'd imagined it (Of course I can tell Abigail is British).
As a trans man, I was so relieved to hear that you actually worked so hard to perform manhood before coming out to yourself and starting your transition. I have only heard trans stories about how people "always knew they were this way" and, for transmasc people, were often tomboys growing up, but I was a TOTAL femme girl with makeup and heels and dresses before I transitioned. It makes me feel better that I'm not alone in that experience of hyper gendered performance pre-transition.
Oh same here! I’m a trans man and I, pre social transition, was super feminine in how I presented myself. As well as being a sort of semi-subconscious way of trying to convince myself that I was a girl, I think it was also a kind of defense mechanism as, if I didn’t look or act masculinely, no one could judge and dissect my true self which I was more insecure about. Like, it didn’t really matter if people judged me for how I presented my femininity because deep down I knew that wasn’t an outwards presentation of my true self, it was more like a costume, or even armour. Showing my masculinity would’ve left me open to judgement on it and I wasn’t secure enough in my masculinity let alone my identity as a man to feel comfortable having that scrutinised. Obviously I know that our experiences are unlikely to be exactly the same (life and people are far too wonderfully complex for that) but I thought I’d share my experiences in case any of it resonated with you as what you said resonated with me. Hope you’re having a good day/evening/night.
Lots of us spend years trying to "archive womanhood" only to find it impossible or to realize that reaching it made us miserable. It's a form of coping for lots of trans people that is not talked about enough. I'm glad Abigail decided to include that part
Non-binary person here. I spent years trying to be a "manly man". Trying to get buff, drinking whisky, and growing a big beard. Then I thought I was a trans woman and tried to go the other way. I wore stereotypically feminine clothes, I started wearing make up for the sake of it, I had super long hair (I didn't cut or look after my hair for years pre-transition), and I even lost a lot of weight. I once caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror and I looked way more feminine than I actually was. It gave me a familiar sense of dysphoria as seeing my pre-HRT face. Ultimately neither made me happy and in the end I settled into what I consider an "androgynous" style and am much happier now, even if most people misgender me initially.
I don't normally speak for my sister because I'm not her, but she did the same thing before coming out. Going to the gym and getting super buff, growing a big beard, so you're definitely not alone.
I don't normally speak for my sister because I'm not her, but she did the same thing before coming out. Going to the gym and getting super buff, growing a big beard, so you're definitely not alone.
The philosopher James Stephanie Sterling has mentioned something about eating in public that really resonated with me and my hang-ups: they said that when someone sees them eat, they imagine the person thinking "I knew it, I knew you eat food. That's why you're fat."
I used to work at a buffet, and my manager once asked me to grab a plate of pears for her because her husband's family was sitting at the table closest to them. I asked if she didn't like her husband's family, and she said "I don't want them to know that I eat"
The “Side Dish” with Kelly Slaughter was incredible, Abi. It’s a little funny, a little hard to watch because I wanna punch her in the face, but the best part is the subtle nudges toward the idea that while she’s part of the problem, she’s also ultimately still victim of a hustle culture that bleeds into our every day lives and encourages a fascistic approach to self discipline. It’s just *chef’s kiss*
"This is America! We don't stop doing the wrong thing when we learn it's wrong! We keep doing the wrong thing until it turns out right!" - Ed Wuncler I, the American counterpart to this quote
i spend lots of time with the study of diction (for opera) and have to deal with foreign languages/accents all the time, and i can attest to the fact that the American [a] in "and/can" is lowkey the single hardest sound for foreigners to imitate, even for english-speaking brits. and she NAILED it. I’m truly blown away. diction is so hard, y'all-even when you think you have a knack for it
It's unbelievable just the level of effort that goes into these videos... watching the interview and hearing all of the little quips that are put in like "learning spanish to speak to the gardener", it's just so impressive
As a psychologist, I'm always happy to see how Abigail is sensitive and has a incredible approach to promote social mental health by philosophically questioning the reality. I'm amazed by the high level of comments, I keep learning with everyone here. And Abigail's joy is so wonderful that her laughter at the end made my day. 🍰
Dear Débora Andrade Caetano: This is not real interaction between you and Abigail Thorne: Débora Andrade Caetano: "Let me see what you have there Ms. Thorne." Abigail Thorne: "A Knife! 🍋🍰" Débora Andrade Caetano: "... Okay?" Abigail Thorne: "... And a Lemon-cake. 🔪"
@@juniorqindes8335 no the video itself is not philosophy but there is philosophy in it which it uses to discuss it's point which is exactly what this comment was complimenting her on
17:47 "As a woman, it feels like, If I'm fat, then I'm gonna be disqualified from having gender?" This observation made me think of Spirited Away, when Chihiro’s parents eat so much food that they transform into actual pigs, and the viewer can no longer tell the mom and dad apart. That scene was hard to re-watch with this video in mind. It made me wonder how many people watched that scene and felt insecure about their own eating.
100%, i love spirited away (+ studio ghibli in general) but that little scene is one of the few issues i have w/ the movie. personally i’ve struggled with body image, weight, and food since i was little, so that scene makes me feel deeply self-conscious.
I just thought about that scene earlier at dinner watching my parents devour their meals. I wondered if people with anorexia look at how other people eat with the same disgust the witch in spirited away looks at chihiros parents. Then I realized that I'm probably projecting. I'm the one disgusted with this seemingly boundless gluttony and full of guilt and shame around food (It's not quite disordered eating but I'm still a terrible emotional eater). This video will hopefully inspire some further soul searching for me.
I did. When i was a kid that part traumatised me. And i don't know any names, but the transforming into pigs is clear in my mind. Fortunately it didn't leave for me any problems
@@hectorroche7665 omg yeah i had the dvd of it growing up, but i could never get past that scene until i was a teenager. it would just upset me so much i would turn off the movie :(
"If I'm fat I'm disqualified from having gender" God I feel this so much. Even as a Cis lady, growing up as a fat girl was so hard. I felt like I wasn't 'good' enough to act or dress femininely. I would always want to, and had the desire to do my hair prettily or wear dresses and put on makeup- especially as a teen- but when I did I would find myself looking in the mirror and hating myself. I'd be so ashamed at the thought of someone seeing me like that, of them witnessing me having the audacity to try and present myself like other girls when my body looked the way it did. These feelings kept me from dressing and presenting in a way that I truly wanted for my entire adolescence. It took until nearly the age of 22 before I could dress- and present my femininity in a way that made me truly happy without the feelings of shame and inadequacy convincing me to hide myself behind baggy masculine clothing. The feelings have never truly left, I still feel sometimes when I look at myself that I'm not 'worthy' of dressing in a feminine way. Whatever that means. --But! I'm much better at not listening to it now. Idk where I'm going with this comment- I don't usually overshare on the internet like this. That line just stuck with me throughout the whole video.
You too, huh? Abby struck home for me when she talked about loosing a dangerous amount of weight in college. Hard to feel masculinity when you’re smaller than you were as an awkward, gangly teenager, let me tell you. And Abby had to experience both ends of that spectrum..! Gotta be rough.
I can relate so much to your experience, having grown and lived my entire life as a cis fat woman it was the first thing i thought of as well. I never wanted to present particularly feminine, but felt I had no right to any gender identity or presentation whatsoever because no matter what, womanhood had no space for me in it. Took me until 22-23 as well.
God I relate to this so much, even the timeline is the same. I'm a fat cis lesbian and my life partner is a trans woman, and I think one of the (many) reasons we relate so deeply to each other is that we both had to make the active conscious choice to allow ourselves womanhood and femininity. I feel like I don't really understand women for whom gender has always just been a given
Kelly Slaughter is freaking terrifying in her realism. Love the technique of a candid conversation with the interviewer promising to polish up the portrayal.
Unfortunately, that girlboss interview is barely hyperbole. Her mindset about only having passion for work and for making use of every waking moment to develop skills is exactly how my dad treats life. The unfortunate thing about it is there's never going to be a point where they reach what they've been searching for, since, like Abby said, the ideal self can never be reached. They're just going to work themselves into the ground. On their deathbed, they'll look back on life, and realize how unfulfilled they are with it. The passions they left undeveloped, the friendships and special moments with others they missed out on, the vacations they worked straight through, all for a slightly bigger paycheck at the end of the month. I wouldn't mind it so much if that wasn't the mindset he imposed on me and my siblings.
My Dad has a similar problem. But because he is an activist it's really hard to tell him to stop? Because it's not just for a higher paycheck but for climate justice (and my future) it's really hard to tell him to engage more in life outside of work.
Literally me. But my anxiety is so ingrained now that even though I've moved out, if I'm not working or working on myself I feel physically ill. So I've just resigned myself to living to work, and happiness not being a priority. Sucks how much upbringing can mess with your head.
I don't have any issue with striving for something that can never be reached. I'm into many different artforms, and I'm constantly looking to improve and push further. But I think the "unfulfilled" part is on the spot. Work and productivity for its own sake is not something that can satisfy you by itself. You might be doing work that can help others, or improve something, and those can surely be things to strive for, but working and being productive for its own sake is only done out of some idea that that's what being successful means in our society. It's an external goal imposed on you, and probably without you realizing it.
The whole weight thing absolutely works for men as well. When I lost a ton of weight I was so surprised just how easier my social interactions became. Like people actually willing to offer genuine help even without asking its honestly amazing.
The Arsonist is doing terrible things to other people, and he knows that he is bad. Kelly Slaughter is doing terrible things to others and to herself, and she thinks that she is good; very good.
She's a tad... obvious though isn't she? I get it in some ways because Abigail said she was worried that if she doesn't write a character with a giant "I AM A BAD PERSON" sign on them people might get the wrong idea, but the whole learning Spanish in two weeks to talk to the gardener seems... would anyone ever really say that? In a supposed interview? I get it she's going for the Connie Britton character in The White Lotus but in very obvious shorthand.
At the end, when you were eating the cake, I asked myself: "Watching this woman eat her cake, what are you thinking? Are you reproaching her? Do you feel like she should hold herself back?" ...and what I got was: "I want to know if she's enjoying the cake." And when you said afterward "that's some really good cake", it was SO satisfying to hear. :D
@@mrchoon2010 Even if someone is unhealthy, it doesn't matter. Some people (like me) are incapable of being healthy because of chronic illnesses. To equate health to morality would render us unable to enjoy ''treats'' for an ideal we will never be able to achieve no matter how hard we try.
Dear Abigail, halfway through the video I was already crying. I'm currently inpatient for an eating disorder that nearly ruined my life. I used to be overweight and was totally fine with my body and I loved myself, but I had to lose weight for medical reasons. I could practically watch how I conditioned myself into absolute self loathing, and it nearly killed me. I'm fighting very hard to get better, because I want to get my love for life back, and because I want to be kind to myself again. There are still some things that I know are inevitable for recovery, but that I'm scared of regardless. Gaining weight is one of them, but some of the things you said have taken a bit of that fear away. Thank you so much for this video, it's doing a lot to fuel my determination!! I'm already taking notes for my therapy journal. I can barely express how much your work, and this one particularly, means to me.
@Max Milian What comment got deleted‽ I'm uncertain if that's gaslighting or if your original comment was so bad that it got moderated away. I would normally assume better of people, but if it's not gaslighting, why didn't you look at the comment chain to see which one of yours is missing? No matter how you slice it, I'm not sure how you're coming out the good guy here. Good luck out there.
"Denial is not just a river in Egypt." "That's the point," [holds up knife]. "In labour but not working." I love the effort that goes into these videos and the little jokes that keep it fun while making us think. Thanks 😊
I've had an eating disorder. Hearing Abigail say that part of what keeps you in an eating disorder is the pride that you're more "disciplined" than other women is so terribly true. I took strange pride in the feeling of starving. That I was stronger for it. I've gotten better but the thoughts still creep up on me
This is the lie we tell ourselves. And it is a lie. I was a dancer who starved myself for so long that I genuinely cannot feel hunger - which is so dangerous. My gyno actually was the one who woke me up. She said, why are you trying to make your children orphans? I was like, what? She replied, don't you know that statistically so many, many more people die of *not* eating than overeating? How much *less* healthy it is not to eat? As someone who was still trying to tell herself she - I - was healthy, her question stunned me like a lightning bolt. My husband, who cooked like a trained chef and took such joy in it, took up the cause by plying me with such delicious and healthy meals. He taught my kids as they grew older to always ask me what I had for lunch that day so I would remember to eat. I didn't want to upset them, so I wrote myself reminder notes. So I learned the joy, finally, after struggling with not eating for nearly two decades. I still struggle. I cannot look at myself in a full length mirror, and I cannot own a bathroom scales. I have learned to appreciate certain parts of my body - my arms, my neck, for instance. Things I never actually hated. I have to be very careful with exercise and not go so far or so long that I get the high out of it - that is very dangerous for me. I will always remember that high, and the high of not eating. But it will kill me, and that is not going to happen. It goes so deep. But every day I'm still here it's a win. Find your joy in feeding yourself and allowing your self to enjoy eating with other people. Don't let anyone take that from you, not even your self. Best wishes
I’ve had an eating disorder since I was 10 and a terrible relationship to my body - recently in my 40s I’ve noticed myself feeling disappointed for feeling full - being hungry felt like I was doing well - I hate it and trying to counteract that ridiculous voice in my head but it’s hard because it’s been around for 30 years
It's absolutely wild being a person with a binge eating disorder in rehab, and almost admiring all the women in your cohort with restrictive eating disorders... for having more self-control than you. And then having that thought reinforced by your parents (and the families of other bingers) when they come in for Family Group night.
“there is a dark, addictive pleasure to being a little fascist towards yourself.” to describe an eating disorder-and by extension, this fucking control towards food that society ingrains in us-as ‘fascism towards the self’ is so fucking vivid and jarring. that line hit me like a fucking train. thank you for this candid video on internalized fatphobia, abi.
Normalize asceticism, eating little untethers you from the transient earthly pleasures of taste. My enjoyment of food plummeted during the plague times, and I feel as if I am no longer a slave to my former gluttony. Leaves, nuts, fruits, and occasional meats, the perfect monastic diet. Felix qui potuit terrae solvere vincula
My mom has had a terrible relationship with food her whole life, largely due to an emotionally abusive and manipulative mother. One thing she knew is that she never wanted her kids to have to deal with the same issues she did. She and my dad made the effort to ensure we had a healthy relationship with food and that none of the trauma they have around it was passed onto us. I'm forever grateful to them for that (along with them being amazing parents in general). She is an amazing example of "Do not take your trauma out on others" and breaking the cycle of abuse. Society gives people enough bs to deal with.
@@TheShadowChesireCat I feel ya. The old man was a “nobody leaves the table until their plate is finished”type, to say the least. Worse, been 33 years next week since we buried him; being just a few years shy of how old he was when he died, I’m starting to develop the same sort of complications that ended up killing him. Not much appetite, have to force-feed myself most days just like I did back then. Often I can swallow down what I make without gagging, but a lot of times it just ends up all wasted food in one form or another. Yet I miss him. Every day. And I know this wouldn’t have been the life he would have wanted for me. Even come to learn over the years my childhood was a cakewalk compared to his; he did try. Not making excuses for him, over 3 decades was enough time to forgive his & largely move on. The world was also a very different place back then, too. Still, I end up kicking myself for never being able to eat everything I buy or cook. Used to be 6ft-2, 200lbs; now I’m 5ft-10, 140lbs and here I am throwing away good food.. 😒
As someone who’s had a restrictive eating disorder for 7 years and been hospitalized multiple times, you eating the cake at the end made me very emotional. Logically I know that you did something good, you’ve shown yourself doing something so many of us are scared to do (ate publicly), and at the same time my ed brain feels anxiety and fear (almost as if I am you, and I am the one who ate the cake). It’s genuinely terrifying, but it’s just a piece of cake.
It hits different after you watch the whole thing - even her anger seems deadened, because she's effectively turned off her emotions in pursuit of her goals. I mean, what kind of mother could say 'yes you're in labor, but you're not working' without a hint of irony?
@@vfaulkon I thought Kelly's portrayal was so well done. On the one hand, she lives a life of incredible privilege and has the means ($$$) and power to influence women's lives. On the other hand, she is somewhat a victim herself and indoctrinated with patriarchal, capitalist norms/beliefs. Rather than get to a position of power and try to challenge the whole system, she instead settles for self-enrichment at the expense of helping others get to where she is.
My experience with “being a little fascist to yourself” doesn’t involve food, but rather self harm. I’m autistic, and so I often struggle with social interaction. In middle school, I started a habit of scratching my arms with a pencil or biting my hands every time I “failed” a social interaction, so that I would “learn not to do it next time”. I had a wake-up call in the form of scratching my arms at work with a staple and realizing the marks weren’t fading like they did with the pencil. I spent the rest of the day terrified of judgement and realized this helped no-one, myself included. Thankfully, I’m starting to overcome this issue. Seriously though that line hit me like a goddamn truck
Man, I'm autistic and decided that instead of feeling bad I would never take anything from anyone ever, and fought dudes a couple times a month forever. It's not really any better, but I like it
I'm autistic too. I used to hurt myself when I would get too stressed out (like, to the point of almost having a meltdown or blowing up at someone) because I knew that if I did lash out or scream I would be painted as a monster or a crazy person, so I preferred to deal with it like that because then I wouldn't be "hurting anyone" (That is, there'd be no repercussions). I would function, and no one would know. Now, I don't do it frequently anymore, at least not like that. It's been a long time since I've actually drawn blood. But... I don't know if that's really a positive development. I've been just kinda... letting all those bad things people say about me stay inside me, without any way to get them out. I know I don't even totally believe them, that they barely feel like coherent speech when they're inside of me, but they're still just... There, like some sort of poison.
I've been learning, slowly, that people are sincere when they say "love yourself more than anyone else". "That's narcissistic!" No, hating yourself is what's bad here, not self-love.
@@Anonymous_Gambito Having someone in your life you can talk to about might help. But that's kind of an obvious suggestion you probably thought of that already. I've been fucked up by some of these things too so look after yourself.
Wow, this kind of confirms my suspicion that the deeply awkward guy at my work who bites his hands when his anxiety is spikes, is undiagnosed autistic.
"there is a dark addictive pleasure in being a little fascist towards yourself." HIT ME HARDDDDDD. I've never heard that feeling be put into words so well before.
TW (Eating disorder) I am in recovery from one and I am disabled as well and this as well as other content helped me to realise that disabled isn't a bad word and that holding my self to Neurotypcal standards is not going to help.
I mean, it makes sense: our brains are wired for finding pleasure in conforming with our tribes, if you perceive your society to bully you then getting to be part of it by also bullying yourself feels like you are finally at least doing _one_ thing right. Or at least this is my experience with it.
I have a 14 year old daughter who is struggling with an eating disorder. She's been in and out of inpatient care for about a year and manages to do really well in the program but has been falling back into the eating disorder when back at home. I really appreciate the insights shared here and am grateful for a voice I feel can be trusted in Abigail. These times we live in are worrisome to say the least but Philosophy Tube is giving me some hope. Thank you so much for sharing parts of your personal journey, it gives us strength. (On a side note: that mock interview was soul crushing but I believe that's what was intended.)
"I'm a feminist but not political" because we all know that the best way to get rid of systematic and societal misogyny is to change nothing at all... Great vid!
When I was 13, after church, I overheard a member chatting with the rest of the woman about her childs' weight, she expressed concern over her child, stating that "she was too chubby" and even admitted to wanting to restrict the breastfeeding she did because she didn't want her "baby girl to grow up fat". Her child was barely a year old, it really messed me up hearing something like that. I hope that everyone can reach the point where they can eat their slice of cake.
I didn't think about that. That's a really good point. She worked/works in theater, so acting without stops there was probably where she got her talent.
i was recently diagnosed with autism and adhd, most of my life i have been called stupid by nearly everyone around me for not processing information the same way as them. but your videos are just so eloquent and funny and make it so i always know what you and the philosophers and industries and ideas you talk about mean. thankyou for making philosophy accessible to me. thankyou for sharing your experiences and knowledge with the world. i love all of it.
35:41 *"There is a dark, addictive pleasure to being a little fascist towards yourself"* I had a similar experience when I was experiencing comphet (compulsory heterosexuality, I am a lesbian fyi). When I had a conventionally attractive boyfriend, I felt a sense of power and superiority over other women. I like parading him around, feeling like I'd "done it." I'd got the prize for being an attractive woman: an attractive man. Of course, the relationship crumbled and I was forced to face the reality that I'm not attracted to men at all, I was chasing a high that would never sustain me and kept me insecure. Since coming out to myself (and others), I feel much more comfortable with my appearance and status, and I've experienced more internal freedom than ever before.
Once again, Abigail plays a character that's just a smidge too real lol. The "I allow myself a square of wholemeal toast because I'm naughty" reminded me of how my mom talked (and still does) to me when I was a kid. It's sad that more often than not, those who are closest to us plant insecurities. :/ Amazingly well-done vid!
Honestly that might as well be summarised as so called "evil". See the case of Pol Pot, one of the most notorious proponents of geonicides in history; what struck me about him is that he had everything society considered required for a righteous person: drive, humility, modesty. But he hated being wrong. In an interview in the 90s, he said simply, with regret, "I knew of those atrocities, but I could not believe that they were happening."
That sentence in that context hit so hard for me. I sometimes feel fat, but I know I'm not. I'm not underweight (60kg at 170cm) and I don't have an eating disorder. It's stupid, I know it's stupid, but still. Noone ever tells me I'm fat because I am not. I try very hard not to look at calorie labels because I know the rabbit hole it can lead to. And still, I sometimes feel fat. I should probably go to some therapy for that (and a bunch of other things) lmao.
Has anyone else had an eating disorder for like, twenty years, and there's no longer even a psychological component to it, it's just how you are now? Anyway. I hope one day, I can eat a slice of lemon cake on camera. That's an oddly courageous gesture. Good leading by example, Abby, and I hope you can find a really good support team to help you stay healthy.
It sucks to get so comfortable with a habit that destroys you. I hope you are doing better now, you are beautiful and powerful and have so much more to offer to the world and you deserve to be healthy.
I know I'm a year late to this comment, but if you see this - you might want to check out Of Herbs and Altars on YT. They are talking in depth about their own ED and how it changes you as a person when it's literally half of your life
I’ve had an ED (ARFID specifically) for pretty much my whole life (stories about my strange eating habits from the age of 3) and it coincides with my autistic sensory issues, and lemme tell you, it’s near impossible to break an ED when it’s an ingrained routine and also based off of traits that you can’t get rid of or just ‘talk it out’ with someone. I’d love to break a cycle that I know in the end will at least shorten my life, but it’s so difficult to do when literally every good eating option is inaccessible. I wish you good luck on your journey however, and hope that one day, I too can eat lemon cake
The worst part is I've actually met people who think like that. Like if I'm not working 24/7 all the time, I'm wasting my life and it's just like NOOOO!!!!!
“I started at the bottom. I had just graduated Stanford” made me laugh way too much. So brave to tell the story of graduating from a top tier university that’s almost 120% more expensive than the average school in California. And it got funnier from there.
@@phucanhell Honestly, it hit a little close because...so I'm living in a cheap apartment that costs $800/month. I'm also looking to buy a house since a mortgage on a full-on house is cheaper than rent...and to get a house for my girlfriend and I within 3 months, I need to acquire at least $6,000 more than I have in my bank. If I graduated college with even a fraction of Miss Slaughter's "only", I could live a life of luxury where I never have to worry about any of the basic necessities of life. And the genuine expression of Slaughter's disconnect with normal working-class people is funny. But I also have friends who have told me that if I really want a house I shouldn't be wasting my money on the ramen noodles with which I literally live off of and are the only thing I eat the 6 days a week that I work. So, it's something real people are really saying, something that real people are basing their weight in the political arena to act in favor of. And that...is not something I can find funny. It's "too real", you know.
At least she started with a net worth around the amount of debt that most of the people I've met who went to a top tier university left school had from their education costs alone. That sounds like she at least has some touch with reality, even if it's in the same negative relation that her financial status was compared to the more common case.
Abigail this video really spoke to me. I’m a cis man who has struggled with anorexia and gone through a long process of recovery and hearing about your struggles makes me feel less alone
I’m the female partner of a man who’s in recovery from an eating disorder. Thank you for making something that finally helped me understand what pleasure anyone gets out of an eating disorder. Thank you for being brave enough to share that.
@@TRaWi thank you for the recommendation!!! It’s pretty lonely being in a hetero relationship with the gender roles involving food completely flipped. Some days it’s a struggle, most of the time it’s not.
I don't know your partner's situation, but this is what it was like for me. I would reach one goalpost, feel happy with myself for a brief moment, and then head towards another goalpost in the distance. it was about chasing pleasure, and that in itself gave me incentive to continue. kind of like gambling. Just like Abigail talked about, I began to associate the feeling of hunger, coldness, fatigue, with victory. It meant that I was doing something "right", and that made me want to continue. I hope this helps you understand. I wish the best for you guys :]
@@hhjhj393 what are you on about?? they said that this video helped understand their partner, not that they now realize how they are morally superior to them now or something
Explaining Kantian epistemology in such a way it actually sounds as the most obvious thing in the world using cooking metaphors must win some kind of award.
Seriously though! Part of the reason I love Abby's vids is because of how she can break down philosophical concepts quite nicely to make them more approachable and understandable. The best teachers are those who can take concepts or ideas that might previously seem insurmountably complex, or at least difficult to grapple with, and make them much more simple.
as a burned out, depressed student, abigail actually makes me feel like learning is enjoyable again-and also, i’m feeling so seen by the conclusion to this episode in particular
@@rkpinata373 The best of learning comes from challenging ideas If you seek them out, you can learn some incredible things in your own study on the internet Whileas, in certain scenarios in the classroom, there isn't much time or acceptance for new or challenging ideas Ideas (and leaning) become rigorous by putting them to the test, and sometimes you will find the strangest of conversations, places, or communities end up being the most fruitful ways to challenge your ideas (and therefore learn) University has breadth of knowdlege, for sure, and depth of knowledge most of the time (depending on the area of study and university), but university is where you are given a structure for acquiring knowledge, not so much where you are necessarily, implicitly, taught to question yourself, question others, and seek knowledge in all the things you question -- ways in which you may truly learn ... ☺️
Same. Im not even very overweight but body dysmorphia makes me feel so damn unfeminine that im so so so ashamed of how i look and act and i hate being perceived. Not to mention that being as a woman unfeminine feels ugly.
i related so much with the hustle culture being an example of body-policing. Living in an asian culture it makes me feel guilty to even rest during my free time because the ideal self is the hardworking family-oriented self. and i constantly feel inadequate if i am not achieving something that is expected of me. anyways love you abby! been a fan since around 4 years ago!
I feel this so much growing up in the same culture. There are so many people around me who complain about not having any down time and are jealous of the fact that I do. And at the same time don't understand when I say that I literally book down time for myself so that I don't burn out and have some self care to manage my many mental health conditions.
I'm a huge fan of Philosophy tube, but I was really hesitant to watch this one. So much of content around eating disorders and ED culture and food shame and fatphobia and such just ends up reminding me that I am never considered attractive by society. That people would do anything to avoid looking like me. That for so many people, having my body would mean that they are a complete and total moral failure of a person. Even though I have the deepest sympathy and love for people struggling with food and body image, as I have as well, it's still exhausting to hear sometimes. I'm very glad I did end up watching this video though, as it ended up being suprisingly uplifting and comforting especially coming from another trans person. Abigail has a wonderful talent of letting love and hope into the darkest topics.
I put off watching it for a while too. I've a long history with eating disorders and even though Abi consistently has good takes it's still a lot to decide to watch a video like this. So glad to read it gave you some comfort x
I honestly find it rather disgusting that her main concern with food is about appearance and not holding a moral high ground concerning where the eggs and butter she uses comes from. So Abigail is a hypocrite at best. Not worth listening to.
@@chatnoir9038 Abigail should know better if she in fact practices what she preaches about justice and equality. And since it is her basic job to be a representative of that she preaches she should at least abide to it and not be a hypocrite. But she does not. She is more concerned about appearance than the suffering of cows and chicken. So she deserved to be shamed by ME who is a morally better person than her.
When I was a teenager and still identified as a cis women, I could see that being fat resulted in people denying me womenhood. I was never particularly bothered by it, and now I know it's because I never wanted womenhood in the first place. But when you are able to put womenhood aside you realize it was never about denying gender - it was about dehumanization. I've been fat my whole life. I never felt human, I was always less than human, a monster, a blob, a creature that I should be grateful other people tolerated. I knew that fatphobia was bad and fat had nothing to do with a value of a human being. But, as I wasn't human being that rule didn't apply to me. When you don't have gender to lose, they'll take your humanity.
it’s crazy. people are totally out here fearing people could never love them because they’re “fat” “disgusting” “a blob”, as though love is dependent on beauty. without beauty, there is no love. people really hold beauty above all else. beauty is not only love, but humanity... we’re really persecuting ourselves and others for not being beautiful enough, and therefore not worthy enough... how did the world get this shallow?
I'm NB, and it made me tear up a bit at the mention of eating a whole plate of food being seen as a victory or conquest for men and as failure for women, because as a kid I used to eat a lot food and make a show out of it to seem more masculine, and it only resulted in other people hammering the point home that it was not the lady-like thing to do and in fact I should feel bad about it. It's the type of things that hit hard when I look back to it now.
ok but the Kelly CEO, Mom segment was brilliant. It was a perfect representation on how harmful hustle motto is (adding the "impossible self-imposed standards" flavour to the mix) but not demonizing the character itself, because Kelly is trapped in these standards, just like so many of us. We like to think of this as some sort of big conspiracy that tries to put a sector of population down but it's a very collective mindset that is made grander unconsciously by us as a society. We reproduce these ideas, we follow them so closely they become invisible for us so they become the norm. Truly in love with this one.
It's funny being fat, gay, and Asian as well with all of its contradictions. In the gay community, there's a pretty explicit premium on being thin or muscular, but at the same time, there is a community of bears and chub-chasers where being bigger is sexualized. Asian people tend to have a stereotype of being small and thin, so being fat and Asian it's almost like being a cryptid. I forget the name but I remember a study where fat asian people were perceived as "more American" if you wanted to bring up the wild intersections of perpetual foreigner stereotypes and body politics.
It's less of a contradiction and more of a pedantic categorization, because don't forget, all the popular gay bears and chubs are mostly tops. If you are a fat bottom, your chances on sex are harder, because bottoms still somewhat fall trap to the same idealistic image that women have to face.
@@imageez Yeah there are definite beauty standards that are attached unequally according to a person’s role. Fat bottoms are definitely erm bottom in the gay pecking order with toned tops ruling the roost. Of course those toned tops are probably full of anxiety and self hate as they hit the gym for 3 hours a day 5 days a week… *sigh*
By the way, I wanted to mention that I love the way you've colorized the baking sequences to reflect your emotional state, so that the color corresponds to what is closest to what real life is and the b&w is the "produced" reality given to us by the panopticon/social constructs/biopower.
15:11 i like how the colour was very faintly yet slowly coming back when she starts going on about the truth and then instantly reverts back to B&W and her whole demeanor and tone changes... these subtle touches in details and acting are so fun to spot
Everyone is complimenting the content of the Kelly interview but my accent-obsessed-self was hyperfocused on “and” and “so” lmao. She did very well with the accent, all things considered. But little Abby-isms would poke through every now and again and it was fascinating.
"I started at the bottom, I just graduated Standford and only had $180,000 in my bank account..." Holy shit this segment was insanely accurate, funny, yet infuriating. Every line was gold.
i genuinely teared up watching you eat that cake. I've never struggled with an ED and hopefully never will and yet I have struggled with the fact that I am fat and therefore I should have an ED or something that will make me lose weight so I can be desireable by the standards of society. Which is completely fucked up. I am the biggest I have ever been, mostly because I was a teenager until recently and therefore my body is becoming it's adult version. But I am slowly allowing myself to not be gripped by the need to be thin and to try and shake my disordered eating habits and thinking patterns. Thank you for making this video and for being so vulnerable. Just thank you. I am still a bit teary eyed now, typing this up. Much love.
this video genuinely was the pushing point that convinced me to make the brownie mix I have in my pantry and now thanks to your video, I have the smell of walnuts, raspberry, and chocolate wafting through my flat. Thank you kindly!
@@vivvy_0 it was just some standard brownie box mix with a half cup of walnuts and a teaspoon or two of raspberry extract. It should work with any other extracts too! just make sure they're food-grade/meant to be eaten and not like essential oils or something.
the hardest thing about being fat and nonbinary is that I'm denied my transness on the basis that I'm not skinny and androgynous looking, since that's apparently how nonbinary people are "supposed" to look. I'm forced to appear hyper binary to even be seen as a human being. it hurts so much to not get to be who i am just because the only clothes that i can wear and the only way i can protect myself from the hurtful comments of others require me to cause myself strong discomfort on the daily. worst thing is that it makes me feel like a failure both as a nonbinary person but also a failure at pretending to be the binary gender that I am not. you really hit the nail on the head with this video, Abigail! I definitely look forward to what you make next.
I see people say such horrible enby phobic things about ruby rose and demi lovato because they aren't androgynous. It baffles me that people equate presentation so strictly with gender identity.
Fat bodies really are seen as more inherently gendered. I'm not nonbinary, but I am a butch woman, and I dress VERY butch, but I can never relate to other butch women talking about being "sir-ed" or otherwise mistaken for men, because as a fat person I am not seen as androgynous in the same way, no matter how I dress. I am perceived as visibly a woman because of my body shape in ways that I wouldn't be if I was skinny. There's also a lot of pressure for fat people to be more gender-conforming in general, so gender-nonconforming fat people are some of the most invisible people in our society, just completely erased from any image of what people can or should look like. It's exhausting.
there's a zine by jey barnes, sadly no longer available for purchase that i can find, about androgyny. one panel has a fat cat with breasts and facial hair in a tank top looking at a literal poster of androgyny: a thin, smooth, hairless dog in a suit. i think about it all the time. to be nonbinary, you not only have to be nonbinary, but you need to look an extremely specific nonbinary way to count, to be recognized, or to be celebrated. it's cruel.
preach! As a chubby dfab enby, I struggle with my breasts and body fat putting me firmly in the "female by default" camp. As if chubby cis men with larger breasts don't exist, and binary trans men with breasts are less valid. I don't want to get rid of them, but I don't want to be perceived as a woman. Sucks.
Abigail's U.S. accent as Kelly Slaughter is so flawless, I had to stare at her face for a solid minute before I convinced myself it wasn't a guest actress.
I love that when people talk about eating disorders and diet culture through the lens of social control rather than a problem that lies solely with the individual. However, I feel that the role of racism was left unexplored. A lot of this video was about Abigail‘s experience and I’m so grateful that she was willing to share this very vulnerable aspect of her life with us. I don’t think this will be the last time that she will explore this subject. I’d like to recommend a book to everyone. It’s titled “fearing the black body“ by Sabrina strings. In this text she explores the intersection of culture religion race economics and gender and how these factors created the culture of fat phobia and shame we are faced with today. Abby if you see this, I know you will love it! I learned a lot from this video and I’m excited to see what you do next!
She probably wasn't very keen to talk about race she doesn't have. I mean people on the internet tend these days to "let POC speak about race". I'm sorry, I struggle with words today. My point is, Abigail isn't facing racism so she does not have experience to talk about it. Also, it's pretty short video (for breadtube standards) so there can be only so much going on there.
@@ololo518 I completely agree actually! I think it was responsible to focus on her experience. This video was more about theory than praxis anyway. As a Black woman, I just wanted to offer some more information about this subject from the perspective of race because it plays a HUGE part in the creation of diet culture. I think it would be great supplemental information for people who are interested in this subject. It’s so complicated and I don’t expect Abigale to be able cover the entire history of diet culture in one video, especially such an emotional one.
@@Bioshocking12 Oh, okay, yeah, that's good that you put some additional things to read if someone is interested in this topic. I have no idea how racism mixes up with this, so good for me to know sth more :)
Ive struggled with anorexia my entire life, i started “dieting” because I didn’t feel like i was worth as much as the girls that were 5-10 lbs less than me when i was 9, thank you SO much for this video❤️
The experience of anorexia is so so difficult to put into words and explain to others who haven’t struggled with eating disorders. I think that the large part of it is internalized shame. Like I’m fine talking about my bipolar but anorexia still feels too raw to address. It’s perceived as a character flaw, as stupidity, weakness, self-obsession, vanity. I’m still terrified of being judged for it even though I know it is nothing to be ashamed about. And because of that deep down I still judge myself. I’m still ashamed of myself. Also the part about the girl boss not knowing what she’s passionate about besides work feels like a metaphor for anorexia also: your whole world revolves around food, around being thin. Your other passions disappear. And yeah, there is definitely this dark pleasure of thinking you are somehow better than others because you can control yourself better and because of that are thinner than others. Interesting how it exists right next to this all-encompassing intense self-hatred. I realized a lot about myself because of this video. I can also show this to make people understand what I’ve been through better. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s not easy. Your story will help others too (but that’s not on you at all if you don’t want it). Wishing you all the best on your difficult path. 💖✊🏼
honestly? the whole social pressure to not enjoy food and take care of every little detail about what and when and how much do you put into your mouth its ridiculous. in the name of the gods just LET THEM EAT CAKE ...IN PEACE!!!
That reminded me how I lost all my friends during my anorexia… because I wouldn’t talk about anything but food. They were sick of it, and I was a pain to be around.
Thank you for putting this into worlds so perfectly. It feels like a lack of character and pure vainity, so You hate yourself even more and punish yourself for it by not eating etc. a huge part of it is control too.
Apologies if this is rude, but would you describe it as a feedback loop? Very simplified it would go Feeling bad Eating less Feeling bad about eating less Eating less because you feel bad about eating less and so on.
The little symmetry between Kelly Slaughter's "Women have been giving birth and going back to the office since, like, the dawn of time" and Adelaide's "She can still get pregnant and, objectively, that's been the job of women since Victorian times" has been living rent-free in my head for a week and I just love it.
We Make 🍋LEMON CAKE🍰
Lemon Drizzle?
I thought it was a joke
But after seeing the description..........
✨BASED✨ and 💊redpilled💊
That cake looked delicious! I’m going to try (and likely fail) to make it!
So close to my birthday too, - it's in three days-... Thank you.🥺
The “girlboss” segment is absolutely terrifying. I feel like abigal thought: “what is the most modern incarnation of evil and oppression with a pretty face that I can put onscreen” and the first thought was “silicon valley startup”.
I thought the same. This segment is, for lack of a better word, brutal. It could almost be a stand-alone video in my opinion: there's much to dissect from it, it cuts right through what patriarcapitalism does.
it's the rotten core of all silicon valley startup people. if you make a tech startup to make the world a better place, you will make it a worse place. Disrupting an industry kills jobs, and more often than not, people by proxy. the media has tried to condition us to view these people as noble, but they're disgusting.
Yes, and frighteningly realistic, too! Which makes it all the worse/better. Abigail is a phenomenal writer. So many layers, so much subtext.
(Also, that part where Kelly Slaughter said "female-identified" first made me go, "cool, they're inclusive to trans people!" Followed immediately by, "...wait, is that TERF-speak?" Because, y'know, "Trans-Identified Male/Female" and all that.
Can someone help me out here? Was she being transphobic, inclusive, or some strange mix?)
@@yuuri9064 I think the fact that she's vaguely in a space that could be interpreted as either progressive or regressive is the point. It's a non-answer that still says a lot.
its so creepy that we all feel like we know someone just like her
“Let them eat cake, but like in an emotionally healthy way.” - Philosophy Tube 2021
Beat me to it, but I'm happy the idea already has attention
@@thundergozon6439 Great minds and all that
Wholesome
this is the backdoor pilot to a philsophical cooking show called Kant Cook Won't Cook
i die X'D
I need it
I didn't know I needed this, but now I do.
Please, some new left leaning UA-cam channel make this happen.
@@D9992. why dont you do it yourself? you coward!
....
ok, no, seriously if someone sees something like that please tell me
"You would be surprised how much a little hormone can change your body! Though if you can't make your own, store-bought is fine!" This. Line. Is. Amazing.
"We encourage all our customers to be responsible with their shopping" in such an underrated line.
Every corporation says the same thing. "We know we're profiting off exploiting people, but it's actually their fault for being exploited."
It's also a window into the mindset of these people. They've convinced themselves the issue is one of discipline and somehow imagine that they themselves would somehow be immune to their own coercive tactics, even though that almost certainly isn't true. But they don't want to take into consideration is that their status has nothing to do with "discipline" but more to do with connections, systems of prejudice, and luck.
"if we aren't doing it, someone else will!"
In every gambling ad, "YOU COULD BE A MILLIONAIRE, WIN ALL THIS MONEY, LIVE THE LIFE YOU DREAMED OF, SOMEONE HAS TO!!!
....gamble responsibly"
It's a quite renaissance attitude "daring to think" and casting off the chosen shackles... Elitism given a new stage.
This is pretty much 1:1 what the people behind lootboxes say when they are (rightfully) told that it's abusive gambling mechanics.
I think the trend of thin women using love of food as a personality trait is really telling, because it proves how ingrained those standards of femininity are in us. It's not enough to be thin, you have to be thin effortlessly, without depriving yourself of anything. Because making an effort to abide by beauty standards is seen as weak, antifeminist, but at the same time being 'ugly' is still unacceptable.
It reminded me of Gone Girl's 'Cool girl' monologue. "Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who [...] jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot."
@@РутаАсадаускайте Yes! I love that monologue, love that book/movie. So gratifyingly vicious.
Reminds me of the thing about having to go to the bathroom to reapply lipstick instead of just doing it in front of others
damned if you don't damned if you do, you're supposed to be a non human human.. somehow
i really hate this shit woman in media stop pretending to be naturally thin challenge
That "I'm a feminist but I'm not political" statement from Kelly Slaughter ran ominously realistic, in this post-Ivanka Trump era.
No actual feminist would ever say that, but lots of high-profile, upper-class, white women (who think "feminism" simply means achieving success for yourself, without questioning any existing systems, while female) often do, unironically, say stuff like this.
Feminism is inherently political. It may not be a matter of parties, but it is always a matter of politics.
Agreed. I grew up hearing from my grandparents "You NEVER talk religion or politics, it's rude", and I feel that attitude is what has lead us to this place. The thing is, much like Feminism, EVERYTHING is political. How do you feel about the healthcare system? How do you feel about your job, pay, and working conditions? How do you feel about being able to choose what medical procedures or medication is most appropriate for your situation? How do you feel about having utilities? Getting an education? Having access to the internet?
It's ALL politics, it all affects politics/policy, and politics/policy affects them as well. It is impossible to separate the world and reality from politics.
And not being allowed to question religion just lead to the rampant, unquestioned abuses by people under the guise of "but I did it for muh gawd!"
Anyone who says they "aren't political" are either cowards, lying, ignorant, or they can financially afford to ignore the politics around them.
Exactly. She captured the essence of the white upper class women that would hold this idea. Anyone outside of that criteria would be faced with politics that include them.
Or rather work against them.
Is the character based on a particular person ?
@@Original_Tenshi_Chan or are part of a demographic that has the luxury of not worrying about politics because most of society caters to them already.
"Knowing something is wrong and believing it anyway" brings me back to the first time I tried to talk about my anorexia with a therapist. I'm skinny. She was fat. When she asked me - kindly, patiently - what I thought was wrong with being fat, I couldn't think of a rational explanation as to how I both thought that she and every other fat person in the world weren't doing *anything* wrong and were in fact beautiful and wonderful people, and yet I was scared of putting on weight myself. It can become sort of an inverse of Naomi's experience - instead of believing that you are a victor where everyone else has failed, you can become trapped by your ideal self in the idea that you are uniquely wrong.
You just helped me finally understand a key part of my wife’s personality. I’ve tried to use this logic with her and it never sticks. Just makes her more ashamed. Like thinks now she’s not only a failure but she’s a hypocrite too. And also mean and judgmental. Maybe it’s never going right make sense because these are emotions and not logical values.
As a women in tech, that CEO bit made me die a little on the inside. That this is what is shown as "success" to us, that this is the "ideal". If we don't overwork ourselves and forget about everything and everyone else in our lives, and look good while doing it, we'll never make it.
Also was cheering that Abi ate the cake!
I kept expecting her to eventually remember her children and say that’s her other passion (even as a cover) but nope. My mama heart also died a little. Whew that character was a little too well done!
That character was so good that I kept forgetting it was a character for a moment and started feeling ire toward her.
@@GuyNamedSean _Acting!_ 👌
@@GuyNamedSean Oh my god, the bits about maternity leave were genuinely horrifying. Like, she mentioned being in the office the day after giving birth, and I was like, does... does your job not require you to sit down? Or stand up? And then she mentioned "leading by example," and an employee who wanted maternity leave, and I was like, "oh, fuuuuuu--"
Its like girlboss feminism merely switches the "ideal self" from one of conventional beauty and feminity with an equally toxic one of constant grinding and productivity "against all odds". In both cases, there is genuine pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, the latter being "successful" despite being a women, but is ultimately unfulfilling, unattainable and causes so much pain
Started at the bottom, just graduated Stanford. Priceless acting.
The 180k in her bank account is what REALLY killed me. Like, there's some plausible deniability and simple ignorance from graduating an Ivy League school (maybe) but to say that you're at the bottom with THAT much money is some astounding ignorance, almost willful.
@@crimsoninsight97 And the mom part! "She wasn't easy on me", amazing xD
And Kelly Antoinette-Slaughter said of her pregnant employee "let her eat lemon cake..... At the office" 😉
I think it's a nod to bill gates dropping off an expensive college to a job his mommy landed him into in IBM. At least his a little bit honest in this, he always says people shouldn't drop out off school follow his steps, because he just got lucky with it.
The entire interview was glorious
Holy shit that FIERCE interview section was legitimately hard to get through. Bravo.
RED????????? Yo this makes me so so happy
Omg wasn't expecting to see you here!
jeremy cares about politics and art, woo.
fancy seeing you here!
And Kelly Antoinette-slaughter said of the pregnant employee (let them eat lemon cake..... At the office)😉
I am a high school philosopher teacher and I must say that this channel has saved my job many times. I have studied philosophy and I understand it... but this channel, this show, has helped me so much to explain to my students concepts and topics and problems... and, even better, how they can see it applied in our daily life.
In high school, they don't care about philosophy concepts or all the white men behind them unless is something that affects them directly. So this channel has made me land those so complex concepts to what they are actually interested in: themselves.
Thank you, Abigail.
“Apart from work what are you passionate about?”
When I worked in Silicon Valley I would ask people at parties “what do you like to do for fun?” and consistently they would look at me and be a bit dazed. Like they hadn’t thought of such a thing in a long time. They usually didn’t have any answer. So that question really does hit spot on. 👌🏼
I remember another video that For Harriett did that talked about how a lot of people ask about "What's your job?" and it's terrifying in the other way cuz they're looking to some degree for you to say work so they feel validated in building THEIR entire life around work and good L*rd the codependency :(
I have seen a couple women on dating sites have in their profiles "I'm an adult. I don't have hobbies." I really do not see how people can just live life with. Othing other than work. Yet, that is very much how society seems to be pushing people, not just women, but everyone.
in many ways the toxic work culture, most noticeable in Japan, also effects many other modern nations like the US. part of the underlying effects of a hyper-capitalist system. money is god, and work is one of the only legitimate ways to make it. worshiping in the factories..
@@stuartpratuch7036 do you know what video that is?
Just as a different perspective, I sometimes freeze when I'm asked that question in a professional context because I don't really want to share my private hobbies in an office setting. I sew and don't particularly want to get bombarded with requests for free clothing repairs, I'm an activist in the BDSM community and that subject isn't really appropriate for work, and I'm a singer but I haven't done so in a while and do NOT want to be asked to sing impromptu (which has happened). But, I think what you're getting at is also totally a thing, and I'm not trying to disagree with you, just add my own experience.
"there is a dark, addictive pleasure in being a little facist towards yourself"
Hell. I mean. I knew this. I knew this since i was a teenager. But this is the first time I've heard someone say it and... it kinda hit me. Yeah.
I've always said "self destruction can be very seductive," but I think I meant it more the way Abby worded it....and yes, to hear someone else say it, made me feel understood in a way I wish I hadn't, and definitely hit me.
@@slappy8941 Oh, do seethe about it. the word policing is real.
@@slappy8941 you are right, the word has lost all meaning. I think they mean authoritarian.
I don't know. Obviously people can go too far with controlling how they eat but in 2021 in the West and especially in the US, where food is cheap and everywhere, I kinda think some ability to control urges for food is useful. At what point is controlling eating "fascist" and at what point is it a healthy response that allows us to not die prematurely in an environment where food that is designed in a lab to be addictive is constantly thrown in our faces?
@@ace625 I think you're hitting an absolutely crucial point, which in the video is completely missing (with all the political economy behind the issue), thus it comes damn close to mistaking consumerism for progressivism! These are all just half-truths, because in nowaday's capitalism we have to manoeuvre through the double bind of both being incentivized to obsess over health, fitness, ego-managerialism and destructive beauty standards AND to binge away on addictive consumer goods, which ruin your health and facilitate apathy and a retreat to the comfort zone! If taken one-sidedly, both can conveniently be interpreted as "empowerment".
omg, housewife and girlboss "ideals" contrasted with self reflection in front of a literal mirror is just so good
Ooh, would've totally missed that if not for this comment. Thanks.
WandaVision vibes
And the video is about beauty and the mirror is sorounded by beauty-products. This channel is one of the reasons i think that UA-cam Videos have a future as art
Oh, that's a great observation! Any thoughts on how the housewife character's scenes got a bit more colourful at times, but also went back to full greyscale?
Oh, and I saw the cardboard cutout as a symbol of making people feel like they're always being watched. She refers to the cutout several times, never forgetting it, but also treating the cutout as a person (i.e like it was real). So she acts like she's being watched. Of course, there was an implied film crew, but I have no idea how it would fit into this.
How do yall get all that im struggling to understand like a quarter of what abby says its so frustrating
"Are you a feminist?"
"Absolutely."
"But you're not political."
"No."
This is the realest shit.
ew
@@enchantedgoldrush ...💀
I feel like being a feminist isnt really very political if we take away all the pazzazz and stereotypes and feminist extremists. Politics shouldnt have much to do with morals. And at its core, being feminist is just believing in equality. Thats like saying being racist is political, when in reality its just being an asshole.
Women who claim feminism but are not political are freeloaders
"Are you a feminist?"
"Absolutely!"
"But you're not political?"
...."no."
Girlboss logic 101
Haha ikr
@@DyslexicMitochondria your username made me click on your profile. Your channel is a hidden gem bro
it will be that way as long as being “political” isn’t consider profitable
Sigma Girlboss Mindset
Margaret thatcher had girl power uwu
"I'm giving Foucault credit for this idea here, even though similar things were said earlier by the Joker."
speechless 10/10
I was dying
I'm da jokah babeh
The rule of three setup leading up to it as well. Very well executed.
Is there any greater contribution to philosophy than the Twin Boats Thought Experiment? He was bold enough to actually use two boats of people who could have killed each other for it.
@@ZhengzhouDan this is what got me I was not prepared
Any time I explain my eating disorder, I have to go into really graphic details about how bad it was, because when people hear that a fat girl once lost 100 pounds their first assumption is that she regrets gaining 200 back. Not that she was already malnourished before what she did to lose the 100.
(Also, my health is way better now. I had to drop out of college back then, but now I'm looking into grad school (which is less work-related than it sounds, I'm just a nerd :P ). x3 )
"It feels like if I'm fat then I'm going to be disqualified from having gender."
Whew, this one hit hard. As an obese ciswoman, I have often felt what I usually call involuntary androgyny, where I'm not recognized as a woman because I do not have a "proper" woman shape. I've been misgendered a lot because of it, and would often go out of my way to wear makeup and more feminine clothing (which is a whole other thing for obese women) in order to essentially more easily be identified as a woman by strangers, even if it's not what I wanted to do.
Obese women's bodies are not recognized in society as women's bodies.
Thank you for putting to words something that I couldn’t until I read your comments. It’s true, overcompensating for my “unfeminine” fat body is something I feel like I need to do, and I feel so much guilt when I feel like I fail at it.
I know I might get a lot of hate from this but this isn't anyone's fault. There are ceratin biological indentifiers to tell a woman from a man and vice versa. The most telling thing are body proportions. I also have problems indentifying the gender of a morbidly anorexic person (I have been in a psychiatrie for a year, so I have seen a lot of them).
If your body doesn't have the body proportions that it would have by exhibiting generally healthy behaviour or being generally healthy in terms of metabolism, it is no wonder that people can't identify your gender for sure.
This does not by any means mean that they see you as less of a woman/man once they know what you are.
@@pinkmuffin9842 uh not ever woman or man has the same body size/shape??
@@pinkmuffin9842 I don't think the point is so much that there's someone to blame for the situation arising, as it is that the way we react to the situation arising is pretty shocking.
Like, I'd make the case that the sidelining and ignoring of fat people (especially fat women, except as spectacle) is one of the things that makes it more difficult to recognise gender signifiers that aren't for stereotypical slim people.
I'd also question your logic in pointing out 'healthy' weights (as far as I can tell, weight is how much you weigh and has only a weak correlation to health); gender has nothing to do with health, and it would feel very mean-spirited to tell a chemo patient "no wonder nobody can tell you're a woman, you've got no hair!"
But really I think the main point is, as Abigail says in the video (and asiina and Myra and other point out in the comments), it's about a voice from inside and out telling you you can't be attractive or even really a full person, not (just) that you can't have a gender.
@@sophcw I never said they had. I said that body proportions are an important factor to differentiate the sexes, just like an Adam's apple will tell you that you most likely have a man in front of you. But if you are trying to argue that people with xx-chromosomes (historically referred to as women) aren't overall similar compared to the differently built xy-people (commonly known as men), I can't help you or argue with you.
But please, if body types don't matter, why would trans women get surgery/take hormones in order to get a bigger chest? If there aren't biological identifiers for male or female, why would they bother transitioning?
"You're in labor, but you're not working."
Holy shit the opitcs of how terrible that line is hit me like a ton of bricks.
It was perfect
My jaw dropped; that was the line of the episode!
I love the new girl boss character, Kelly Slaughter. We have the same last name. 😂
That pause at the end is just {chef's kiss}
Love your videos. I knew living in The Netherlands is better, but did not understand how it was done. Thanks.
@UC915cV7a65OpwQ3dvJ3KMaQ ja we love to see it
Wow Not Just Bikes and Philosophytube, what a crossover! :D
Wouldnt it be cool that all the characters came together to discuss some philosophical topic in one video
Pretty sure I went to law school with Kelly Slaughter
Thank you for this video, Abigail. I'm a man and a strength coach / mixed martial arts coach, who has just started to work with more women who want to learn how to fight, get physically fitter, or train to lift weights safely. A lot of the time a negative body image comes attached with these desires (from all genders I work with). It is heart breaking, to tell you the truth. This video, which I'll re-watch a few times I'm sure, has given me more insight into understanding how to approach their needs. I'll be honest, at times it has been a little upsetting listening to clients talk about themselves. I do my best to remain professionally, but tell them I'm the wrong person if they think I'm going to agree with how they're speaking about themselves. Personally, I do this job to help people feel empowered, stay safe, and have fun. So people can see their bodies as something to celebrate and enjoy, not punish with exercise or dieting. To be clear, I'm not a 'weight loss' coach nor would I like to be. I've suffered from body dysmorphia myself in the past and developed what was clearly an eating disorder to make weight for competitions most weekends. Obviously, this isn't about me though, it is about the people I serve. So, thank you for this video. It will certainly help my clients... And myself included - beard, muscles, and the rest of it. (Apologies for a self-indulgent comment. Just wanted to say thanks as I've been watching since lockdown 1, but never commented.)
"As a woman, if I am fat, it feels like I am disqualified from having gender."
This brought actual tears to my eyes. As an AFAB person currently grappling with gender questions, I have frequently had to ask myself "Am I non-binary, or do I just feel like I'm failing to perform womanhood because I am fat?" I still don't have an answer.
One of the reasons I stopped identifying as a man was because of my body. It wasn't, hasn't ever been, masculine enough.
You're a woman, no matter what gender constructs you do or don't adhere to.
@Dan Konnman I wouldn't say I dropped it like dropping a hat. It only occurred after decades of trying to be a man and failing, and after trauma. But regardless of the reasoning behind why my gender identity changed, change it did. And I'm happier this way.
@Dan Konnman are u actually asking a random stranger to just casually open up about their trauma?
@Dan Konnman What is your view on my situation regarding my gender identity, now that you know a little more?
One example of how deep the pressure for women goes:
I was showing my mom an outfit for a wedding and her first response was: "I don't like it. It makes you look huge! It's so unflattering. You should go with something else."
And I was like, "I'm 32 weeks pregnant?!"
that needs to stop! this whole putting each other down. I'm sure you would have looked lovely in that dress.
It was only in moving away from my family that I was able to start dressing in a way that felt right to me. And on the occasions when I see my mother and she says something like that, I now have the confidence to say, “Yes. I look fat in this outfit, because I’m fat. There isn’t going to be less of me if I wear a different outfit.” I’ve also come to realize that the people who are most disgusted by fat people who don’t try to cover up and hide themselves feel that way because they would hate themself if they were fat and don’t understand how someone could be fat and joyful.
This is why I'm TERRIFIED of inviting my mother to my wedding. I was a bridesmaid for my best friend's wedding a few years ago and when my mum saw the pictures on Facebook she said "Your hairstyle made you look old."
Thanks Mum.
Hahaha
that’s a funny joke
...she was joking, right?
Tell me she was joking
@@OfficialROZWBRAZEL She was not.
You really pulled off the look of a housewife that is dead in side with the clapping at the beginning. Iconic.
Look?
It ain't no act.
I've thought a lot about how this subject relates to me as a cis Black woman and how culture really brings a lot of conflict to the conversation. I'm expected to eat and be thick BUT only in certain places. Like being impossibly thin is more so a stigma in the Black community ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NO ASS. You can have no tits, an average face, even a tummy in come cases but GOD FORBID you don't have an ass. And now since the ideal body type is being slim thick the relationship between women and food along with procedures like Brazilian butt lifts is just a vortex of pressure and confusion.
If that's the people you want to attract. You could just be at a healthy weight with a little butt and find someone who isn't controlled by society. I realize that is hard in a Black community but their are outliers.
I'm sorry you're experiencing this. That ideal has invaded mainstream (white) culture. We know the mainstream steals black culture, whether that's positive or negative aspects. A body type that less than 10% (that's my estimation, not science backed) naturally have. It's nearly impossible without surgery to have a big ass, tiny waist and big boobs. Boobs and butts are fat. When you put on fat you don't get to decide where it goes. I blame the Kardashians and Brazilian butt lifts. A body type only achievable for the rich.
@@redfacegaming7727 you.... don't actually know what the op is talking about do you? this isn't about a slim subset of people who have a toxic idea. this is the general vibe that is put on every seingle person and stays there until the individual makes a concited effort to break away from it and even then the residue lingers. you don't 'attract' mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins and the like but they are also there. you can't cut out every single business from grocers to schools to government offices and, unless you live away from all humans, you are not able to deflect socially cast stigmas and preconceptions of visual acceptability, fuck the op can't even get away from it in their comment because here you are trying to make this about individual willpower while also making an unnecessary dig about 'healthy weight'.
Ignore that racist asshole Red Face.
It's not the same since I am not Black, but in Latin America the beauty standard is quite similar. That surgery is called a BRAZILIAN butt lift after all. It's an impossible standard.
@@wickjezek1101 For women aged 20-Over 60, the 'excellent' range for body fat percentage is 14-23.2%. Below 14% is considered unhealthy and it's 8% for a man.
"I was in labor but I'm not working" is such a brilliant line. Despite literally being called "labor," literally GIVING BIRTH AND CREATING ANOTHER PERSON is not as seen as "work" if it doesn't contribute to the standard of clout-gaining "work" set by this hustle culture.
She interpreted "WHAT drives you?" as her driver, showing that she sees this service worker as a "what" and not a "who." Amazingly written, Abby.
Exactly! It's so incredibly patriarchal, that the incredible physical and emotional sacrifices that women make to have children is completely undervalued and not seen as labor or worthy of having protections. I'm not saying that women are better or deserve to be put on a pedestal or something for having children (as I know someone in the comments is going to try to straw man to miss my point), but just that those sacrfices (and dangers) are completely ignored, the epitome being that we have piss poor family leave policies (in the U.S. at least) and women are expected to go back to work instead of phsyically recovering and bonding with their baby.
Also, if caring for children wasn't work, she wouldn't pay a nanny to do it for her.
@@JanusKastin In addition, neglect wouldn't be a literal crime if looking after children isn't work.
I know this is by and large talking about fatness as women experience it, but as a man who has been fat for just about as long as I can remember, this spoke to me quite deeply. For most of my life, I've felt like a non-entity because I'm fat. More than being disqualified from gender I just... I felt disqualified from practically all social interactions. I felt, still feel often, that I shouldn't be perceived, that I was not a person that should be befriended or loved or desired. I felt, and still often feel, repulsive, off-putting, lucky to only be ignored. And when I did end up getting attention, it scared me. It didn't make sense, it made me think I was being made a joke of, pranked or something. Even now, as a grown man, sometimes getting positive attention from people feels wrong, it makes my heart race and I find myself looking for the nearest exit. I still struggle with the self-esteem problems from growing up like that. The shame is powerful, I think a lot of folks don't realize just how powerful it is. It has defined and controlled the vast majority of my life thus far, and I'm not fully out from under its shadow.
IMO You look just fine the way you are. Good luck with your struggles.
I remember how people started treating me nicer after I lost weight, at first it was great but it saddened me to realize that it was just because of internalized fatphobia. You’re valid just the way you are Zetch, I hope you find yourself out of that shadow one day soon and are happy with who you are
Likewise, your comment was about your experience as a fat person, but as a trans person I personally deeply related to the feelings you described, as I frequently find myself feeling inhuman, and wishing I could never be perceived. They're obviously not the same thing, but with transness being so often tied to one's body and appearance, I feel kinship with the fight of fat activists, as I feel both trans liberation and fat liberation are intrinsically connected. From what I've seen, many experiences that trans people have, namely with regards to medical care, mirror those of fat people- like with what we like to call the "trans broken arm syndrome". I think this quote by Marsha P. Johnson is relevant: "No pride for some of us without liberation for all of us." Thank you for your comment, and have a nice day :)
@@Joe-vm6ds Agreed. I was furious with how a couple of my guy friends at university who had previously treated me like 'just one of the boys' suddenly tried to Netflix and chill me or make out when they got me alone after I lost weight. The worst part is they KNEW me as a person and still didn't have sexual/romantic feelings towards me until I lost a bunch of weight (50lbs). So who I am was never good enough, I had to be thin to be acknowledged as a woman and my value as a person validated. Fuck I hate the way this world/biology/cismen work. -____- I've decided to be happy with who I am at any size and simply stop dating.
@@Joe-vm6ds people will also often treat you better after you quit smoking. Because people don’t like having to deal with the health problems of those around them.
While the video was supposed to be about food, it's amazing how hard the exact same concepts hit me as a survivor of religious trauma and extremely fundamentalist religion. The unattainable ideal self. The sense of pleasure and superiority in self-denial. The psychology feels like it's exactly the same for some reason.
Oh you're right
Yes and yes.
BINGO! it's all about being taught to police yourself, like the panopticon
absolutely :'-/
there was actually a sort of idea in the middle ages of women becoming saintly or godly through specifically denying themselves the "pleasure" of eating. they would be touted as unattainable paragons of beauty and saintly suffering and ideal temperament and discipline. so the link between denying the precise "pleasure" of eating and religion is very old. i mean one of the worst sins is labelled "gluttony"....
I know UA-cam is, ugh, so fraught when it comes to commenting, but I did want to share my personal journey with finding real REAL joy with being fat. Here goes: I got my eating disorder from my mother. The list of foods I was not allowed to eat as a child was longer than the list of foods I was allowed to eat. I was never allowed cake or soda even on my birthday. The one time my mom packed me lunch it was wholemeal bread with one tiny slice of turkey and piled with alfalfa sprouts with no mustard or mayo or anything. And an apple. Dinner growing up was often a bowl of rice and stir fried lettuce. And this was only ONE part of the child abuse I experienced from my Mom. Food was always about denial and punishment and discipline; all that jazz. And then............ I got the amazing blessing of raising a child. I expressed so much of my love for her through food and cooking. I made roast chicken and mashed potatoes and gravy from scratch. I cooked cute little bento boxes with pandas made out of rice and nori and little weenie frank squids and yellow egg omelette cut to look like stars. I made cakes and cookies and all of it was love. I also got fat. And I hated it about myself for so long, until I realized that what I actually value in life--what really makes me smile and feel genuine joy--is making delicious food for my family and the people I care about. There's love in that food, just like there's love in my belly and back fat and double-chin. Every excess pound on my body is made out of the love I have for my family, and the love I wish I'd had as a child. In feeding my family love through my homemade oatmeal chocolate chip cookies, I was also feeding myself love. I always thought that if I was thin enough, my mom would one day love me. But what I didn't realize until so recently is that my big bum and curves shows that I always had enough love in my body for my beautiful family and for myself.
This comment made me tear up.
Thank you for being such an incredible role model to your child & breaking the cycle of intergenerational food restriction/fatphobia. I wish my mother shared your beliefs when I was growing up
This is beautiful and powerful! Thank you for sharing. 🍱🍍
Reminds me of the saying "never trust a skinny cook" haha. Great journey! I'm happy you've learned to accept yourself
My situation is a little different but this resonates with me so much. I’m from a culture where food has a central place and carries a lot of meaning. I’ve recently moved to a different country to escape political persecution. When people ask me what I miss most about home, I would say the food. Some would think that it’s pure hedonistic pleasure, don’t you have more important things to worry about? But food means gathering with your friends and family, it means sharing and gifting. It’s happiness and love. And to be able to be safe at home with people that you love and share a meal together means freedom. I know it sounds quite exaggerated but I miss my friends and family so much. I’m so glad that you have developed a good relationship with food and prioritise joy despite your mom. I’m sure that your kids can feel the love and warmth you put into every meal.
As a linguist: The American accent with the vocal fry during the Fierce Interview is absolutely mind-melting.
As a recovering anorexic: Seeing you eat that cake brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.
Her accent there fascinated me too, it’s like an uncanny valley for certain dialects (not a knock at all abigayles regular voice is lovely) if you wouldn’t mind answering are there some things you noticed that you can point out that make it sound weird? I tried to pinpoint WHY it sounded so close but not quite there but didn’t have the knowledge to articulate it lol
That's so interesting! As someone whose second language is English, I struggle with telling some accents apart, especially American ones. So, I did notice something about that scene, but until I read this comment, I was quite sure I'd imagined it (Of course I can tell Abigail is British).
@@Bakucryptid77 I wonder if part of it is long vowels?
As a trans man, I was so relieved to hear that you actually worked so hard to perform manhood before coming out to yourself and starting your transition. I have only heard trans stories about how people "always knew they were this way" and, for transmasc people, were often tomboys growing up, but I was a TOTAL femme girl with makeup and heels and dresses before I transitioned. It makes me feel better that I'm not alone in that experience of hyper gendered performance pre-transition.
Oh same here! I’m a trans man and I, pre social transition, was super feminine in how I presented myself. As well as being a sort of semi-subconscious way of trying to convince myself that I was a girl, I think it was also a kind of defense mechanism as, if I didn’t look or act masculinely, no one could judge and dissect my true self which I was more insecure about. Like, it didn’t really matter if people judged me for how I presented my femininity because deep down I knew that wasn’t an outwards presentation of my true self, it was more like a costume, or even armour. Showing my masculinity would’ve left me open to judgement on it and I wasn’t secure enough in my masculinity let alone my identity as a man to feel comfortable having that scrutinised. Obviously I know that our experiences are unlikely to be exactly the same (life and people are far too wonderfully complex for that) but I thought I’d share my experiences in case any of it resonated with you as what you said resonated with me. Hope you’re having a good day/evening/night.
Lots of us spend years trying to "archive womanhood" only to find it impossible or to realize that reaching it made us miserable. It's a form of coping for lots of trans people that is not talked about enough. I'm glad Abigail decided to include that part
Non-binary person here. I spent years trying to be a "manly man". Trying to get buff, drinking whisky, and growing a big beard. Then I thought I was a trans woman and tried to go the other way. I wore stereotypically feminine clothes, I started wearing make up for the sake of it, I had super long hair (I didn't cut or look after my hair for years pre-transition), and I even lost a lot of weight. I once caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror and I looked way more feminine than I actually was. It gave me a familiar sense of dysphoria as seeing my pre-HRT face. Ultimately neither made me happy and in the end I settled into what I consider an "androgynous" style and am much happier now, even if most people misgender me initially.
I don't normally speak for my sister because I'm not her, but she did the same thing before coming out. Going to the gym and getting super buff, growing a big beard, so you're definitely not alone.
I don't normally speak for my sister because I'm not her, but she did the same thing before coming out. Going to the gym and getting super buff, growing a big beard, so you're definitely not alone.
The philosopher James Stephanie Sterling has mentioned something about eating in public that really resonated with me and my hang-ups: they said that when someone sees them eat, they imagine the person thinking "I knew it, I knew you eat food. That's why you're fat."
Thank god for them.
I used to work at a buffet, and my manager once asked me to grab a plate of pears for her because her husband's family was sitting at the table closest to them.
I asked if she didn't like her husband's family, and she said "I don't want them to know that I eat"
The “Side Dish” with Kelly Slaughter was incredible, Abi. It’s a little funny, a little hard to watch because I wanna punch her in the face, but the best part is the subtle nudges toward the idea that while she’s part of the problem, she’s also ultimately still victim of a hustle culture that bleeds into our every day lives and encourages a fascistic approach to self discipline. It’s just *chef’s kiss*
"Knowing that you're wrong but believing it anyway. It's called being English."
Cuttin' me deep.
I love the fact that she is English and unafraid to say it. The most truly liberal people, in my opinion, are people who call out their own countries.
"This is America! We don't stop doing the wrong thing when we learn it's wrong! We keep doing the wrong thing until it turns out right!"
- Ed Wuncler I, the American counterpart to this quote
like a cake
This is the best possible version of "Online Recipe That Goes Into Weird, Tangential Diatribes Before Finally Telling You How To Bake The Damn Cake".
Just letting you know that I read the word Diatribes like it's the name of an ancient Greek philosopher
If all of those weird tangent recipes were this good I would read them!
This could be an Adult Swim short
Diatribes could often be seen with a lantern, searching for a man he could yammer at endlessly.
@@NotBamOrBing pronounced “dy-ah-TRAH-baes”
Side note: as someone with that quite specific American woman accent myself, the way Kelly Slaughter says "and" in particular is perfect. SHUDDER
‘iynd’
Ayund
i spend lots of time with the study of diction (for opera) and have to deal with foreign languages/accents all the time, and i can attest to the fact that the American [a] in "and/can" is lowkey the single hardest sound for foreigners to imitate, even for english-speaking brits. and she NAILED it. I’m truly blown away. diction is so hard, y'all-even when you think you have a knack for it
Scary good ngl
@@nicolette7007 I'm Pacific Canadian and our accent is pretty neutral but I STRUGGLE with the American "a" too.
It's unbelievable just the level of effort that goes into these videos... watching the interview and hearing all of the little quips that are put in like "learning spanish to speak to the gardener", it's just so impressive
As a psychologist, I'm always happy to see how Abigail is sensitive and has a incredible approach to promote social mental health by philosophically questioning the reality. I'm amazed by the high level of comments, I keep learning with everyone here. And Abigail's joy is so wonderful that her laughter at the end made my day. 🍰
Dear Débora Andrade Caetano:
This is not real interaction between you and Abigail Thorne:
Débora Andrade Caetano: "Let me see what you have there Ms. Thorne."
Abigail Thorne: "A Knife! 🍋🍰"
Débora Andrade Caetano: "... Okay?"
Abigail Thorne: "... And a Lemon-cake. 🔪"
This isn’t philosophy. .-.
@@juniorqindes8335 no the video itself is not philosophy but there is philosophy in it which it uses to discuss it's point which is exactly what this comment was complimenting her on
@@butasimpleidiotwizard ah, I can get behind that. Thanks for clearing it up for me
@@HollyOak can you try and reword that because I'm not sure that question makes sense
« I mean look at Nigella, this is a completely unrealistic body standard for women - She’s only 5mm thick! » had me cackling
I STILL LAUGHED AT THAT XDXDXD
I love those kind of jokes!
17:47 "As a woman, it feels like, If I'm fat, then I'm gonna be disqualified from having gender?"
This observation made me think of Spirited Away, when Chihiro’s parents eat so much food that they transform into actual pigs, and the viewer can no longer tell the mom and dad apart. That scene was hard to re-watch with this video in mind. It made me wonder how many people watched that scene and felt insecure about their own eating.
100%, i love spirited away (+ studio ghibli in general) but that little scene is one of the few issues i have w/ the movie. personally i’ve struggled with body image, weight, and food since i was little, so that scene makes me feel deeply self-conscious.
gotta love that 'visual shorthand' thing films and books love to do with making greedy or evil characters fat
I just thought about that scene earlier at dinner watching my parents devour their meals. I wondered if people with anorexia look at how other people eat with the same disgust the witch in spirited away looks at chihiros parents.
Then I realized that I'm probably projecting. I'm the one disgusted with this seemingly boundless gluttony and full of guilt and shame around food (It's not quite disordered eating but I'm still a terrible emotional eater). This video will hopefully inspire some further soul searching for me.
I did. When i was a kid that part traumatised me. And i don't know any names, but the transforming into pigs is clear in my mind. Fortunately it didn't leave for me any problems
@@hectorroche7665 omg yeah i had the dvd of it growing up, but i could never get past that scene until i was a teenager. it would just upset me so much i would turn off the movie :(
"What drives you?"
"My driver's name is Jaquline. She's really cool."
I CACKLED. Fucking gold.
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The implication that she’s only a “what” and not a “who” to Kelly is SO telling lmao
@@Timby_ It's the little things that cause me to exclaim stuff that my parents have to tune out
The Joker: "We live in a society"
Foucault: "Write that down, write that down!"
If you rearrange the letters in “The Joker” and add some new ones, it spells “Focault”
"If I'm fat I'm disqualified from having gender"
God I feel this so much. Even as a Cis lady, growing up as a fat girl was so hard. I felt like I wasn't 'good' enough to act or dress femininely. I would always want to, and had the desire to do my hair prettily or wear dresses and put on makeup- especially as a teen- but when I did I would find myself looking in the mirror and hating myself. I'd be so ashamed at the thought of someone seeing me like that, of them witnessing me having the audacity to try and present myself like other girls when my body looked the way it did.
These feelings kept me from dressing and presenting in a way that I truly wanted for my entire adolescence. It took until nearly the age of 22 before I could dress- and present my femininity in a way that made me truly happy without the feelings of shame and inadequacy convincing me to hide myself behind baggy masculine clothing. The feelings have never truly left, I still feel sometimes when I look at myself that I'm not 'worthy' of dressing in a feminine way. Whatever that means. --But! I'm much better at not listening to it now.
Idk where I'm going with this comment- I don't usually overshare on the internet like this. That line just stuck with me throughout the whole video.
You too, huh? Abby struck home for me when she talked about loosing a dangerous amount of weight in college. Hard to feel masculinity when you’re smaller than you were as an awkward, gangly teenager, let me tell you. And Abby had to experience both ends of that spectrum..! Gotta be rough.
I can relate so much to your experience, having grown and lived my entire life as a cis fat woman it was the first thing i thought of as well.
I never wanted to present particularly feminine, but felt I had no right to any gender identity or presentation whatsoever because no matter what, womanhood had no space for me in it.
Took me until 22-23 as well.
God I relate to this so much, even the timeline is the same. I'm a fat cis lesbian and my life partner is a trans woman, and I think one of the (many) reasons we relate so deeply to each other is that we both had to make the active conscious choice to allow ourselves womanhood and femininity. I feel like I don't really understand women for whom gender has always just been a given
I am solidly "chubby" and I have curbed my period chocolate habit with iron supplements but cravings were unsettling.
I’m 29 and I’m still there. Thank you for this comment because is describes the feeling so well. Reading was like, “oh look, THERE ARE OTHERS”
Kelly Slaughter is the most on point character I've seen in a while, in any media.
Agree
Ikr?? I even forgot she was Abigail.
Kelly Slaughter is freaking terrifying in her realism. Love the technique of a candid conversation with the interviewer promising to polish up the portrayal.
I can vouch for her "trust fund baby" American accent too. It's a very specific one, and Abby nailed it. I guess that drama school worked!
Unfortunately, that girlboss interview is barely hyperbole. Her mindset about only having passion for work and for making use of every waking moment to develop skills is exactly how my dad treats life. The unfortunate thing about it is there's never going to be a point where they reach what they've been searching for, since, like Abby said, the ideal self can never be reached. They're just going to work themselves into the ground. On their deathbed, they'll look back on life, and realize how unfulfilled they are with it. The passions they left undeveloped, the friendships and special moments with others they missed out on, the vacations they worked straight through, all for a slightly bigger paycheck at the end of the month.
I wouldn't mind it so much if that wasn't the mindset he imposed on me and my siblings.
My dad too...
Im like that too, but not for the normal reasons. In any case i would never impose that mindset on anyone, esp. my children :/
My Dad has a similar problem. But because he is an activist it's really hard to tell him to stop? Because it's not just for a higher paycheck but for climate justice (and my future) it's really hard to tell him to engage more in life outside of work.
Literally me. But my anxiety is so ingrained now that even though I've moved out, if I'm not working or working on myself I feel physically ill. So I've just resigned myself to living to work, and happiness not being a priority. Sucks how much upbringing can mess with your head.
I don't have any issue with striving for something that can never be reached. I'm into many different artforms, and I'm constantly looking to improve and push further. But I think the "unfulfilled" part is on the spot. Work and productivity for its own sake is not something that can satisfy you by itself. You might be doing work that can help others, or improve something, and those can surely be things to strive for, but working and being productive for its own sake is only done out of some idea that that's what being successful means in our society. It's an external goal imposed on you, and probably without you realizing it.
The whole weight thing absolutely works for men as well. When I lost a ton of weight I was so surprised just how easier my social interactions became. Like people actually willing to offer genuine help even without asking its honestly amazing.
I went from 115kg to 80kg. Women will make eye contact with me now and sometimes even smile. Before, I was invisible.
Kelly Slaughter is more terrifying to me than the Arsonist. She's the most unnervingly chilling character I have seen in ages.
The Arsonist is doing terrible things to other people, and he knows that he is bad.
Kelly Slaughter is doing terrible things to others and to herself, and she thinks that she is good; very good.
It's the realism.
And we have a lot of this girl in society
She's a tad... obvious though isn't she? I get it in some ways because Abigail said she was worried that if she doesn't write a character with a giant "I AM A BAD PERSON" sign on them people might get the wrong idea, but the whole learning Spanish in two weeks to talk to the gardener seems... would anyone ever really say that? In a supposed interview? I get it she's going for the Connie Britton character in The White Lotus but in very obvious shorthand.
Ratatoskr the Squirrel of Doom she’s exaggerated, like any character. I don’t see what’s wrong with that
At the end, when you were eating the cake, I asked myself: "Watching this woman eat her cake, what are you thinking? Are you reproaching her? Do you feel like she should hold herself back?" ...and what I got was: "I want to know if she's enjoying the cake." And when you said afterward "that's some really good cake", it was SO satisfying to hear. :D
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There's nothing wrong with a bit of cake if you're healthy. It's a nice treat
@@mrchoon2010 Even if someone is unhealthy, it doesn't matter. Some people (like me) are incapable of being healthy because of chronic illnesses. To equate health to morality would render us unable to enjoy ''treats'' for an ideal we will never be able to achieve no matter how hard we try.
@Dan Konnman your eye sight is worse than mine then
@@cerineko7984 don't feed the troll. just report their transphobia.
Dear Abigail, halfway through the video I was already crying. I'm currently inpatient for an eating disorder that nearly ruined my life. I used to be overweight and was totally fine with my body and I loved myself, but I had to lose weight for medical reasons. I could practically watch how I conditioned myself into absolute self loathing, and it nearly killed me. I'm fighting very hard to get better, because I want to get my love for life back, and because I want to be kind to myself again. There are still some things that I know are inevitable for recovery, but that I'm scared of regardless. Gaining weight is one of them, but some of the things you said have taken a bit of that fear away. Thank you so much for this video, it's doing a lot to fuel my determination!! I'm already taking notes for my therapy journal. I can barely express how much your work, and this one particularly, means to me.
@Max Milian why would you claim that?
@Max Milian quit bitching. Some people have early access. If you supported Abi on Patreon, you would have early access too.
I'm proud of you for doing the work, and keeping going.
@Max Milian seems like you just can't admit you're wrong but then delete your own comment anyway like nothing happened. Very mature
@Max Milian What comment got deleted‽ I'm uncertain if that's gaslighting or if your original comment was so bad that it got moderated away. I would normally assume better of people, but if it's not gaslighting, why didn't you look at the comment chain to see which one of yours is missing? No matter how you slice it, I'm not sure how you're coming out the good guy here. Good luck out there.
"Denial is not just a river in Egypt." "That's the point," [holds up knife]. "In labour but not working." I love the effort that goes into these videos and the little jokes that keep it fun while making us think. Thanks 😊
I've had an eating disorder. Hearing Abigail say that part of what keeps you in an eating disorder is the pride that you're more "disciplined" than other women is so terribly true. I took strange pride in the feeling of starving. That I was stronger for it. I've gotten better but the thoughts still creep up on me
This is the lie we tell ourselves. And it is a lie. I was a dancer who starved myself for so long that I genuinely cannot feel hunger - which is so dangerous. My gyno actually was the one who woke me up. She said, why are you trying to make your children orphans? I was like, what? She replied, don't you know that statistically so many, many more people die of *not* eating than overeating? How much *less* healthy it is not to eat? As someone who was still trying to tell herself she - I - was healthy, her question stunned me like a lightning bolt. My husband, who cooked like a trained chef and took such joy in it, took up the cause by plying me with such delicious and healthy meals. He taught my kids as they grew older to always ask me what I had for lunch that day so I would remember to eat. I didn't want to upset them, so I wrote myself reminder notes. So I learned the joy, finally, after struggling with not eating for nearly two decades. I still struggle. I cannot look at myself in a full length mirror, and I cannot own a bathroom scales. I have learned to appreciate certain parts of my body - my arms, my neck, for instance. Things I never actually hated. I have to be very careful with exercise and not go so far or so long that I get the high out of it - that is very dangerous for me. I will always remember that high, and the high of not eating. But it will kill me, and that is not going to happen. It goes so deep. But every day I'm still here it's a win. Find your joy in feeding yourself and allowing your self to enjoy eating with other people. Don't let anyone take that from you, not even your self. Best wishes
I’ve had an eating disorder since I was 10 and a terrible relationship to my body - recently in my 40s I’ve noticed myself feeling disappointed for feeling full - being hungry felt like I was doing well - I hate it and trying to counteract that ridiculous voice in my head but it’s hard because it’s been around for 30 years
true
It's absolutely wild being a person with a binge eating disorder in rehab, and almost admiring all the women in your cohort with restrictive eating disorders... for having more self-control than you. And then having that thought reinforced by your parents (and the families of other bingers) when they come in for Family Group night.
@@lilymanshel6146 I'm sorry you're going through that rn. Understand that they are no better than you or your struggles. I wish you a good recovery.
“there is a dark, addictive pleasure to being a little fascist towards yourself.” to describe an eating disorder-and by extension, this fucking control towards food that society ingrains in us-as ‘fascism towards the self’ is so fucking vivid and jarring. that line hit me like a fucking train. thank you for this candid video on internalized fatphobia, abi.
As someone with self-hatred from trauma and internal ableism issues it's pretty true.
i felt it too
Not just fatphobia - against any negative internalised societal projections.
I put it on a post it and smacked it on my mirror. I have never heard such a concise and profound way of explaining the nuances of an ed.
Normalize asceticism, eating little untethers you from the transient earthly pleasures of taste. My enjoyment of food plummeted during the plague times, and I feel as if I am no longer a slave to my former gluttony. Leaves, nuts, fruits, and occasional meats, the perfect monastic diet. Felix qui potuit terrae solvere vincula
My mom has had a terrible relationship with food her whole life, largely due to an emotionally abusive and manipulative mother. One thing she knew is that she never wanted her kids to have to deal with the same issues she did. She and my dad made the effort to ensure we had a healthy relationship with food and that none of the trauma they have around it was passed onto us.
I'm forever grateful to them for that (along with them being amazing parents in general). She is an amazing example of "Do not take your trauma out on others" and breaking the cycle of abuse. Society gives people enough bs to deal with.
I do believe my father has gender and body issues.
But I very much got his trauma inflicted on me. It got me very ill.
@@TheShadowChesireCat I'm so sorry you had to go through that :(
@@TheShadowChesireCat I feel ya. The old man was a “nobody leaves the table until their plate is finished”type, to say the least. Worse, been 33 years next week since we buried him; being just a few years shy of how old he was when he died, I’m starting to develop the same sort of complications that ended up killing him. Not much appetite, have to force-feed myself most days just like I did back then. Often I can swallow down what I make without gagging, but a lot of times it just ends up all wasted food in one form or another.
Yet I miss him. Every day. And I know this wouldn’t have been the life he would have wanted for me. Even come to learn over the years my childhood was a cakewalk compared to his; he did try. Not making excuses for him, over 3 decades was enough time to forgive his & largely move on. The world was also a very different place back then, too.
Still, I end up kicking myself for never being able to eat everything I buy or cook. Used to be 6ft-2, 200lbs; now I’m 5ft-10, 140lbs and here I am throwing away good food.. 😒
As someone who’s had a restrictive eating disorder for 7 years and been hospitalized multiple times, you eating the cake at the end made me very emotional. Logically I know that you did something good, you’ve shown yourself doing something so many of us are scared to do (ate publicly), and at the same time my ed brain feels anxiety and fear (almost as if I am you, and I am the one who ate the cake). It’s genuinely terrifying, but it’s just a piece of cake.
I hope you’ve had a slice comrade
Not gonna lie, Kelly's angry face whenever she got asked an uncomfortable question made me chuckle
It hits different after you watch the whole thing - even her anger seems deadened, because she's effectively turned off her emotions in pursuit of her goals. I mean, what kind of mother could say 'yes you're in labor, but you're not working' without a hint of irony?
Yeah, I saw it less as anger and more as setting her face and mind into a blank mask at the sudden threat of emotion and introspection.
@@vfaulkon I thought Kelly's portrayal was so well done. On the one hand, she lives a life of incredible privilege and has the means ($$$) and power to influence women's lives. On the other hand, she is somewhat a victim herself and indoctrinated with patriarchal, capitalist norms/beliefs. Rather than get to a position of power and try to challenge the whole system, she instead settles for self-enrichment at the expense of helping others get to where she is.
My experience with “being a little fascist to yourself” doesn’t involve food, but rather self harm. I’m autistic, and so I often struggle with social interaction. In middle school, I started a habit of scratching my arms with a pencil or biting my hands every time I “failed” a social interaction, so that I would “learn not to do it next time”. I had a wake-up call in the form of scratching my arms at work with a staple and realizing the marks weren’t fading like they did with the pencil. I spent the rest of the day terrified of judgement and realized this helped no-one, myself included. Thankfully, I’m starting to overcome this issue. Seriously though that line hit me like a goddamn truck
Man, I'm autistic and decided that instead of feeling bad I would never take anything from anyone ever, and fought dudes a couple times a month forever.
It's not really any better, but I like it
I'm autistic too. I used to hurt myself when I would get too stressed out (like, to the point of almost having a meltdown or blowing up at someone) because I knew that if I did lash out or scream I would be painted as a monster or a crazy person, so I preferred to deal with it like that because then I wouldn't be "hurting anyone" (That is, there'd be no repercussions). I would function, and no one would know. Now, I don't do it frequently anymore, at least not like that. It's been a long time since I've actually drawn blood. But... I don't know if that's really a positive development. I've been just kinda... letting all those bad things people say about me stay inside me, without any way to get them out. I know I don't even totally believe them, that they barely feel like coherent speech when they're inside of me, but they're still just... There, like some sort of poison.
I've been learning, slowly, that people are sincere when they say "love yourself more than anyone else".
"That's narcissistic!" No, hating yourself is what's bad here, not self-love.
@@Anonymous_Gambito Having someone in your life you can talk to about might help. But that's kind of an obvious suggestion you probably thought of that already.
I've been fucked up by some of these things too so look after yourself.
Wow, this kind of confirms my suspicion that the deeply awkward guy at my work who bites his hands when his anxiety is spikes, is undiagnosed autistic.
"there is a dark addictive pleasure in being a little fascist towards yourself." HIT ME HARDDDDDD. I've never heard that feeling be put into words so well before.
SAME.
TW (Eating disorder) I am in recovery from one and I am disabled as well and this as well as other content helped me to realise that disabled isn't a bad word and that holding my self to Neurotypcal standards is not going to help.
Read Anti-Oedipus if you’d like to know what she means!
@@rauldjvp3053 I do know what it means lol
I mean, it makes sense: our brains are wired for finding pleasure in conforming with our tribes, if you perceive your society to bully you then getting to be part of it by also bullying yourself feels like you are finally at least doing _one_ thing right. Or at least this is my experience with it.
I have a 14 year old daughter who is struggling with an eating disorder. She's been in and out of inpatient care for about a year and manages to do really well in the program but has been falling back into the eating disorder when back at home. I really appreciate the insights shared here and am grateful for a voice I feel can be trusted in Abigail. These times we live in are worrisome to say the least but Philosophy Tube is giving me some hope. Thank you so much for sharing parts of your personal journey, it gives us strength. (On a side note: that mock interview was soul crushing but I believe that's what was intended.)
"I'm a feminist but not political" because we all know that the best way to get rid of systematic and societal misogyny is to change nothing at all... Great vid!
+
U mean the patriarchy
And changing nothing at all totally isn’t political either.
Hes crazy
@@oldvlognewtricks if you havent seen it, you'll love lily alexandre's video on 2010s pop feminism
When I was 13, after church, I overheard a member chatting with the rest of the woman about her childs' weight, she expressed concern over her child, stating that "she was too chubby" and even admitted to wanting to restrict the breastfeeding she did because she didn't want her "baby girl to grow up fat". Her child was barely a year old, it really messed me up hearing something like that. I hope that everyone can reach the point where they can eat their slice of cake.
Is there any kind of healthy baby that isn't chubby looking? I mean WTF.
wow that is messed up, and it must have been messed up to hear that at 13
No healthy baby is thin. Geez….
@@ScorpionViper1001 Exactly, they're *supposed* to look like that!!
@@ApparentlyNott It got me wondering whether or not I was the "correct" weight, I'm just glad I realised that it was not a healthy sentiment to have
Can we all take a moment to appreciate the fact that Kelly Slaughter's interview was one-take? THE TALENT!!!
I didn't think about that. That's a really good point.
She worked/works in theater, so acting without stops there was probably where she got her talent.
“My driver’s name is Jacqueline” Kelly is so funny, I love her. Queen!
no it wasn't, they had to edit out the part about the driver, weren't you listening?
Hoooooooly crap! Thank you for pointing that out!
i was recently diagnosed with autism and adhd, most of my life i have been called stupid by nearly everyone around me for not processing information the same way as them. but your videos are just so eloquent and funny and make it so i always know what you and the philosophers and industries and ideas you talk about mean. thankyou for making philosophy accessible to me. thankyou for sharing your experiences and knowledge with the world. i love all of it.
35:41 *"There is a dark, addictive pleasure to being a little fascist towards yourself"* I had a similar experience when I was experiencing comphet (compulsory heterosexuality, I am a lesbian fyi). When I had a conventionally attractive boyfriend, I felt a sense of power and superiority over other women. I like parading him around, feeling like I'd "done it." I'd got the prize for being an attractive woman: an attractive man.
Of course, the relationship crumbled and I was forced to face the reality that I'm not attracted to men at all, I was chasing a high that would never sustain me and kept me insecure. Since coming out to myself (and others), I feel much more comfortable with my appearance and status, and I've experienced more internal freedom than ever before.
You put this into words so nicely... thank you, so relatable for me
Once again, Abigail plays a character that's just a smidge too real lol. The "I allow myself a square of wholemeal toast because I'm naughty" reminded me of how my mom talked (and still does) to me when I was a kid. It's sad that more often than not, those who are closest to us plant insecurities. :/
Amazingly well-done vid!
33:26 "Knowing that you're wrong, but believing it anyway" - I've definitely felt this before. It's such an interesting part of human psychology.
Half the things I think could come under this category
Honestly that might as well be summarised as so called "evil".
See the case of Pol Pot, one of the most notorious proponents of geonicides in history; what struck me about him is that he had everything society considered required for a righteous person: drive, humility, modesty. But he hated being wrong.
In an interview in the 90s, he said simply, with regret, "I knew of those atrocities, but I could not believe that they were happening."
It’s called ideology
That sentence in that context hit so hard for me. I sometimes feel fat, but I know I'm not. I'm not underweight (60kg at 170cm) and I don't have an eating disorder. It's stupid, I know it's stupid, but still. Noone ever tells me I'm fat because I am not. I try very hard not to look at calorie labels because I know the rabbit hole it can lead to. And still, I sometimes feel fat.
I should probably go to some therapy for that (and a bunch of other things) lmao.
@@rauldjvp3053 Elaborate.
Has anyone else had an eating disorder for like, twenty years, and there's no longer even a psychological component to it, it's just how you are now?
Anyway. I hope one day, I can eat a slice of lemon cake on camera. That's an oddly courageous gesture. Good leading by example, Abby, and I hope you can find a really good support team to help you stay healthy.
It sucks to get so comfortable with a habit that destroys you. I hope you are doing better now, you are beautiful and powerful and have so much more to offer to the world and you deserve to be healthy.
I hope youre able to seek professional help with what you’re going through. You don’t have to live like that, I promise. Sending my best wishes.
I know I'm a year late to this comment, but if you see this - you might want to check out Of Herbs and Altars on YT. They are talking in depth about their own ED and how it changes you as a person when it's literally half of your life
I’ve had an ED (ARFID specifically) for pretty much my whole life (stories about my strange eating habits from the age of 3) and it coincides with my autistic sensory issues, and lemme tell you, it’s near impossible to break an ED when it’s an ingrained routine and also based off of traits that you can’t get rid of or just ‘talk it out’ with someone.
I’d love to break a cycle that I know in the end will at least shorten my life, but it’s so difficult to do when literally every good eating option is inaccessible.
I wish you good luck on your journey however, and hope that one day, I too can eat lemon cake
"there is a dark, addictive pleasure to being a little fascist towards yourself." Abigail Thorn
Foucault says this in the Preface to Anti-Oedipus as well!
@@madryael that is such a good connection
oh my lord... the ballad of Kelly Slaughter is the dead face of capitalism staring at you from its empty sockets.
*its
The worst part is I've actually met people who think like that. Like if I'm not working 24/7 all the time, I'm wasting my life and it's just like NOOOO!!!!!
Sheer brilliance.
I died at
- **What** drives you?
- Uhhh my driver's name is Jacqueline
On second thought I may have misinterpreted that.
“I started at the bottom. I had just graduated Stanford” made me laugh way too much. So brave to tell the story of graduating from a top tier university that’s almost 120% more expensive than the average school in California. And it got funnier from there.
"I had like 180k in my bank account, and that was all" The sincerity of the delivery got me.
@@phucanhell Honestly, it hit a little close because...so I'm living in a cheap apartment that costs $800/month. I'm also looking to buy a house since a mortgage on a full-on house is cheaper than rent...and to get a house for my girlfriend and I within 3 months, I need to acquire at least $6,000 more than I have in my bank.
If I graduated college with even a fraction of Miss Slaughter's "only", I could live a life of luxury where I never have to worry about any of the basic necessities of life.
And the genuine expression of Slaughter's disconnect with normal working-class people is funny. But I also have friends who have told me that if I really want a house I shouldn't be wasting my money on the ramen noodles with which I literally live off of and are the only thing I eat the 6 days a week that I work.
So, it's something real people are really saying, something that real people are basing their weight in the political arena to act in favor of. And that...is not something I can find funny. It's "too real", you know.
At least she started with a net worth around the amount of debt that most of the people I've met who went to a top tier university left school had from their education costs alone. That sounds like she at least has some touch with reality, even if it's in the same negative relation that her financial status was compared to the more common case.
Abigail this video really spoke to me. I’m a cis man who has struggled with anorexia and gone through a long process of recovery and hearing about your struggles makes me feel less alone
I’m the female partner of a man who’s in recovery from an eating disorder. Thank you for making something that finally helped me understand what pleasure anyone gets out of an eating disorder. Thank you for being brave enough to share that.
@@TRaWi thank you for the recommendation!!! It’s pretty lonely being in a hetero relationship with the gender roles involving food completely flipped. Some days it’s a struggle, most of the time it’s not.
I don't know your partner's situation, but this is what it was like for me. I would reach one goalpost, feel happy with myself for a brief moment, and then head towards another goalpost in the distance. it was about chasing pleasure, and that in itself gave me incentive to continue. kind of like gambling.
Just like Abigail talked about, I began to associate the feeling of hunger, coldness, fatigue, with victory. It meant that I was doing something "right", and that made me want to continue.
I hope this helps you understand. I wish the best for you guys :]
@@hhjhj393 what are you on about?? they said that this video helped understand their partner, not that they now realize how they are morally superior to them now or something
hey, i just wanted to say that, a year later, i hope your partner is doing well- i wish him the best
Explaining Kantian epistemology in such a way it actually sounds as the most obvious thing in the world using cooking metaphors must win some kind of award.
Seriously though!
Part of the reason I love Abby's vids is because of how she can break down philosophical concepts quite nicely to make them more approachable and understandable. The best teachers are those who can take concepts or ideas that might previously seem insurmountably complex, or at least difficult to grapple with, and make them much more simple.
Truly
as a burned out, depressed student, abigail actually makes me feel like learning is enjoyable again-and also, i’m feeling so seen by the conclusion to this episode in particular
I think the rigorousness of university is where you truly learn. This is just youtube, the depth of knowledge is very shallow
@@rkpinata373 The best of learning comes from challenging ideas
If you seek them out, you can learn some incredible things in your own study on the internet
Whileas, in certain scenarios in the classroom, there isn't much time or acceptance for new or challenging ideas
Ideas (and leaning) become rigorous by putting them to the test, and sometimes you will find the strangest of conversations, places, or communities end up being the most fruitful ways to challenge your ideas (and therefore learn)
University has breadth of knowdlege, for sure, and depth of knowledge most of the time (depending on the area of study and university), but university is where you are given a structure for acquiring knowledge, not so much where you are necessarily, implicitly, taught to question yourself, question others, and seek knowledge in all the things you question -- ways in which you may truly learn ... ☺️
I have been uncomfortably fat my whole life and I will admit that I cried when you talked about being denied the experience of gender.
Same and I thought I could escape it by working out and growing out a beard.. no I can’t i’m seriously confused
Same. Im not even very overweight but body dysmorphia makes me feel so damn unfeminine that im so so so ashamed of how i look and act and i hate being perceived. Not to mention that being as a woman unfeminine feels ugly.
i related so much with the hustle culture being an example of body-policing. Living in an asian culture it makes me feel guilty to even rest during my free time because the ideal self is the hardworking family-oriented self. and i constantly feel inadequate if i am not achieving something that is expected of me. anyways love you abby! been a fan since around 4 years ago!
I feel this so much growing up in the same culture.
There are so many people around me who complain about not having any down time and are jealous of the fact that I do. And at the same time don't understand when I say that I literally book down time for myself so that I don't burn out and have some self care to manage my many mental health conditions.
I'm a huge fan of Philosophy tube, but I was really hesitant to watch this one. So much of content around eating disorders and ED culture and food shame and fatphobia and such just ends up reminding me that I am never considered attractive by society. That people would do anything to avoid looking like me. That for so many people, having my body would mean that they are a complete and total moral failure of a person. Even though I have the deepest sympathy and love for people struggling with food and body image, as I have as well, it's still exhausting to hear sometimes. I'm very glad I did end up watching this video though, as it ended up being suprisingly uplifting and comforting especially coming from another trans person. Abigail has a wonderful talent of letting love and hope into the darkest topics.
You are valid, worthy and important. ❤️
I put off watching it for a while too. I've a long history with eating disorders and even though Abi consistently has good takes it's still a lot to decide to watch a video like this. So glad to read it gave you some comfort x
I honestly find it rather disgusting that her main concern with food is about appearance and not holding a moral high ground concerning where the eggs and butter she uses comes from. So Abigail is a hypocrite at best. Not worth listening to.
@@abbemartensson3850 This is not how you get people to go vegan.
@@chatnoir9038 Abigail should know better if she in fact practices what she preaches about justice and equality. And since it is her basic job to be a representative of that she preaches she should at least abide to it and not be a hypocrite.
But she does not. She is more concerned about appearance than the suffering of cows and chicken. So she deserved to be shamed by ME who is a morally better person than her.
When I was a teenager and still identified as a cis women, I could see that being fat resulted in people denying me womenhood. I was never particularly bothered by it, and now I know it's because I never wanted womenhood in the first place. But when you are able to put womenhood aside you realize it was never about denying gender - it was about dehumanization. I've been fat my whole life. I never felt human, I was always less than human, a monster, a blob, a creature that I should be grateful other people tolerated. I knew that fatphobia was bad and fat had nothing to do with a value of a human being. But, as I wasn't human being that rule didn't apply to me. When you don't have gender to lose, they'll take your humanity.
you did it. you put it into words. holy shit thank you for this.
This is powerful. Thank you for sharing.
This is it, A plus.
Well said.
it’s crazy. people are totally out here fearing people could never love them because they’re “fat” “disgusting” “a blob”, as though love is dependent on beauty. without beauty, there is no love. people really hold beauty above all else. beauty is not only love, but humanity... we’re really persecuting ourselves and others for not being beautiful enough, and therefore not worthy enough... how did the world get this shallow?
I'm NB, and it made me tear up a bit at the mention of eating a whole plate of food being seen as a victory or conquest for men and as failure for women, because as a kid I used to eat a lot food and make a show out of it to seem more masculine, and it only resulted in other people hammering the point home that it was not the lady-like thing to do and in fact I should feel bad about it. It's the type of things that hit hard when I look back to it now.
ok but the Kelly CEO, Mom segment was brilliant. It was a perfect representation on how harmful hustle motto is (adding the "impossible self-imposed standards" flavour to the mix) but not demonizing the character itself, because Kelly is trapped in these standards, just like so many of us. We like to think of this as some sort of big conspiracy that tries to put a sector of population down but it's a very collective mindset that is made grander unconsciously by us as a society. We reproduce these ideas, we follow them so closely they become invisible for us so they become the norm. Truly in love with this one.
Thank you! As far as I can tell you are the only one in the comments section who shares my viewpoint on Kelly
It's funny being fat, gay, and Asian as well with all of its contradictions. In the gay community, there's a pretty explicit premium on being thin or muscular, but at the same time, there is a community of bears and chub-chasers where being bigger is sexualized. Asian people tend to have a stereotype of being small and thin, so being fat and Asian it's almost like being a cryptid. I forget the name but I remember a study where fat asian people were perceived as "more American" if you wanted to bring up the wild intersections of perpetual foreigner stereotypes and body politics.
It's less of a contradiction and more of a pedantic categorization, because don't forget, all the popular gay bears and chubs are mostly tops. If you are a fat bottom, your chances on sex are harder, because bottoms still somewhat fall trap to the same idealistic image that women have to face.
@@imageez Yeah there are definite beauty standards that are attached unequally according to a person’s role. Fat bottoms are definitely erm bottom in the gay pecking order with toned tops ruling the roost. Of course those toned tops are probably full of anxiety and self hate as they hit the gym for 3 hours a day 5 days a week… *sigh*
"Denial is not just a river in Egypt"
You won my like with that one lmao, puns are the best
I’m glad the British Library of Puns let her access the historic records and use that one
it's a common pun, but it's a good one for sure
@@preternatural3231 It's an older code, but it checks out. I WAS about to let her through...
By the way, I wanted to mention that I love the way you've colorized the baking sequences to reflect your emotional state, so that the color corresponds to what is closest to what real life is and the b&w is the "produced" reality given to us by the panopticon/social constructs/biopower.
15:11 i like how the colour was very faintly yet slowly coming back when she starts going on about the truth and then instantly reverts back to B&W and her whole demeanor and tone changes... these subtle touches in details and acting are so fun to spot
Yeah!
My therapist: Abi's American accent can't hurt you
Abi's American accent: liyfstayl gowals
Every time she says "eeand" I cry
Everyone is complimenting the content of the Kelly interview but my accent-obsessed-self was hyperfocused on “and” and “so” lmao. She did very well with the accent, all things considered. But little Abby-isms would poke through every now and again and it was fascinating.
"I started at the bottom, I just graduated Standford and only had $180,000 in my bank account..."
Holy shit this segment was insanely accurate, funny, yet infuriating. Every line was gold.
i genuinely teared up watching you eat that cake. I've never struggled with an ED and hopefully never will and yet I have struggled with the fact that I am fat and therefore I should have an ED or something that will make me lose weight so I can be desireable by the standards of society. Which is completely fucked up. I am the biggest I have ever been, mostly because I was a teenager until recently and therefore my body is becoming it's adult version. But I am slowly allowing myself to not be gripped by the need to be thin and to try and shake my disordered eating habits and thinking patterns. Thank you for making this video and for being so vulnerable. Just thank you. I am still a bit teary eyed now, typing this up. Much love.
the thought of the Joker as a philosopher in a 3 piece suit and a pipe, sitting in an armchair...
Laughter is the Kalashnikov of the Pascifist Terrorist.
"we live in a society"
- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
The pipe isn't a real pipe.
It blows bubbles.
The bubbles are made of soap and blood.
"Let us imagine two boats one with upstanding civilians, one with hardened criminals."
Have you not seen "Ignorance & Censorship"? Abi talks about philosophy in a Joker costume in that one.
this video genuinely was the pushing point that convinced me to make the brownie mix I have in my pantry and now thanks to your video, I have the smell of walnuts, raspberry, and chocolate wafting through my flat. Thank you kindly!
i hope u enjoy them!
@@yeeclaw5976 I did! They were delicious ^>^
recipe?
Now you've made me hungry for brownies! It's 9am and I'm at school 😆
@@vivvy_0 it was just some standard brownie box mix with a half cup of walnuts and a teaspoon or two of raspberry extract. It should work with any other extracts too! just make sure they're food-grade/meant to be eaten and not like essential oils or something.
the hardest thing about being fat and nonbinary is that I'm denied my transness on the basis that I'm not skinny and androgynous looking, since that's apparently how nonbinary people are "supposed" to look. I'm forced to appear hyper binary to even be seen as a human being. it hurts so much to not get to be who i am just because the only clothes that i can wear and the only way i can protect myself from the hurtful comments of others require me to cause myself strong discomfort on the daily. worst thing is that it makes me feel like a failure both as a nonbinary person but also a failure at pretending to be the binary gender that I am not.
you really hit the nail on the head with this video, Abigail! I definitely look forward to what you make next.
I see people say such horrible enby phobic things about ruby rose and demi lovato because they aren't androgynous. It baffles me that people equate presentation so strictly with gender identity.
Fat bodies really are seen as more inherently gendered. I'm not nonbinary, but I am a butch woman, and I dress VERY butch, but I can never relate to other butch women talking about being "sir-ed" or otherwise mistaken for men, because as a fat person I am not seen as androgynous in the same way, no matter how I dress. I am perceived as visibly a woman because of my body shape in ways that I wouldn't be if I was skinny.
There's also a lot of pressure for fat people to be more gender-conforming in general, so gender-nonconforming fat people are some of the most invisible people in our society, just completely erased from any image of what people can or should look like. It's exhausting.
there's a zine by jey barnes, sadly no longer available for purchase that i can find, about androgyny. one panel has a fat cat with breasts and facial hair in a tank top looking at a literal poster of androgyny: a thin, smooth, hairless dog in a suit. i think about it all the time. to be nonbinary, you not only have to be nonbinary, but you need to look an extremely specific nonbinary way to count, to be recognized, or to be celebrated. it's cruel.
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preach! As a chubby dfab enby, I struggle with my breasts and body fat putting me firmly in the "female by default" camp. As if chubby cis men with larger breasts don't exist, and binary trans men with breasts are less valid. I don't want to get rid of them, but I don't want to be perceived as a woman. Sucks.
I actually cried when you finally eat the cake. Thank you for being you and always sharing your knowledge with us!
Abigail's U.S. accent as Kelly Slaughter is so flawless, I had to stare at her face for a solid minute before I convinced myself it wasn't a guest actress.
Seriously! It's pretty solidly SoCal, too
I love that when people talk about eating disorders and diet culture through the lens of social control rather than a problem that lies solely with the individual. However, I feel that the role of racism was left unexplored. A lot of this video was about Abigail‘s experience and I’m so grateful that she was willing to share this very vulnerable aspect of her life with us. I don’t think this will be the last time that she will explore this subject. I’d like to recommend a book to everyone. It’s titled “fearing the black body“ by Sabrina strings. In this text she explores the intersection of culture religion race economics and gender and how these factors created the culture of fat phobia and shame we are faced with today. Abby if you see this, I know you will love it! I learned a lot from this video and I’m excited to see what you do next!
Agreed, such a great book!
Holy shit that synopsis is wild, the introduction doesn't lag behind either.
She probably wasn't very keen to talk about race she doesn't have. I mean people on the internet tend these days to "let POC speak about race". I'm sorry, I struggle with words today. My point is, Abigail isn't facing racism so she does not have experience to talk about it. Also, it's pretty short video (for breadtube standards) so there can be only so much going on there.
@@ololo518 I completely agree actually! I think it was responsible to focus on her experience. This video was more about theory than praxis anyway. As a Black woman, I just wanted to offer some more information about this subject from the perspective of race because it plays a HUGE part in the creation of diet culture. I think it would be great supplemental information for people who are interested in this subject. It’s so complicated and I don’t expect Abigale to be able cover the entire history of diet culture in one video, especially such an emotional one.
@@Bioshocking12 Oh, okay, yeah, that's good that you put some additional things to read if someone is interested in this topic. I have no idea how racism mixes up with this, so good for me to know sth more :)
Since I never saw ever her acting in a play or a TV spot, I'm always quite shock seeing her acting. Is absolutely terrifying how perfect it was
Ive struggled with anorexia my entire life, i started “dieting” because I didn’t feel like i was worth as much as the girls that were 5-10 lbs less than me when i was 9, thank you SO much for this video❤️
"I'm in labour, but it's not work"
Damnit Abigail has outdone herself with the writing again!
The experience of anorexia is so so difficult to put into words and explain to others who haven’t struggled with eating disorders.
I think that the large part of it is internalized shame. Like I’m fine talking about my bipolar but anorexia still feels too raw to address.
It’s perceived as a character flaw, as stupidity, weakness, self-obsession, vanity. I’m still terrified of being judged for it even though I know it is nothing to be ashamed about. And because of that deep down I still judge myself. I’m still ashamed of myself.
Also the part about the girl boss not knowing what she’s passionate about besides work feels like a metaphor for anorexia also: your whole world revolves around food, around being thin. Your other passions disappear.
And yeah, there is definitely this dark pleasure of thinking you are somehow better than others because you can control yourself better and because of that are thinner than others. Interesting how it exists right next to this all-encompassing intense self-hatred.
I realized a lot about myself because of this video. I can also show this to make people understand what I’ve been through better. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s not easy. Your story will help others too (but that’s not on you at all if you don’t want it). Wishing you all the best on your difficult path. 💖✊🏼
honestly? the whole social pressure to not enjoy food and take care of every little detail about what and when and how much do you put into your mouth its ridiculous.
in the name of the gods just
LET THEM EAT CAKE ...IN PEACE!!!
That reminded me how I lost all my friends during my anorexia… because I wouldn’t talk about anything but food. They were sick of it, and I was a pain to be around.
Thank you for putting this into worlds so perfectly. It feels like a lack of character and pure vainity, so You hate yourself even more and punish yourself for it by not eating etc. a huge part of it is control too.
Apologies if this is rude, but would you describe it as a feedback loop? Very simplified it would go
Feeling bad
Eating less
Feeling bad about eating less
Eating less because you feel bad about eating less and so on.
The little symmetry between Kelly Slaughter's "Women have been giving birth and going back to the office since, like, the dawn of time" and Adelaide's "She can still get pregnant and, objectively, that's been the job of women since Victorian times" has been living rent-free in my head for a week and I just love it.
Adelaide is one of my favorite recurring bit-characters, on like, all of UA-cam, ever. So silly, so sad, so true.