Sort of, but if this track is using every one of the Genesis sound channels plus all the legacy Master System channels to mimic the SNES tune here, where would all the sound fx for the game fit in? I mean, the music is extremely important to the game experience, for sure, but so are all the sound fx too. That's the bit I'm not quite getting here in what you just said. . . .
@@inceptional With the XGM driver you get 4 PCM channels for samples. That means you can play the 6th FM samples of this track on 1 PCM channel and still have 3 more PCM spare channels for SFX playback. If I'm not mistaken its more than enough.
@@inceptional "There is no way you can distort the math to allow Genesis to play 8 separate PCM channels, not matter what you do" Its not about math, but how you process the data that the DAC channel (FM6) converts from digital to analog. If you can leverage the resources from the Genesis console in a smart way, digital samples can be mixed "in software" before they get sent to the FM6 register, so the actual output plays multiple digital tracks at once. The SNES basically does the same thing, but using 8 channels that have actual hardware specialized support for this task. In the case of the XGM driver, the developer leverages the Z80 processor to serve as the "hardware" support for this task (leaving the main processor completely free for use on game logic), though only 4 channels, and maxing 14khz. You can see an example of the driver in action here: ua-cam.com/video/VmQMyJSz2SI/v-deo.htmlm20s Note that after half of the video, you get to hear the 4 PCM channels isolated, so you can judge how "good" or "bad" the samples play. IMO, more than good enough for the 16bit era. "And, even with manipulating the Genesis to play 4 PCM channels, I'm pretty sure I read it has to be in a lower kHz to achieve this feat" You are correct, the 4 PCM channels play at lower kHz than any SNES channel max output, but you have to also take into account that for most SNES games it was impossible to playback at the maximum available capacity, something you can only do in Demos. Also, the SNES playback suffered from other type of distortions like the Gaussian filter applied to all sound. Still, in the case of the XGM, the 14KHz limit only applies to the output of FM channel 6, the rest of the FM channels have close to a 32Khz limit and it's way higher for the PSG channels. Overall, I would say sample-rate wise, both the SNES and the Genesis can be very close or even sound clearer from the FM channels. "From everything I've read and indeed heard, it's enough to get an approximation in any real use scenario and that's it, but it will not overall sound as good or as rich as the SNES can" The SNES audio is clearly a more modern solution; it's obvious it has some advantages over the Genesis, like the multitude of PCM channels, the effects like echo, or the ability to change instrument pitches (which I think even the XGM driver cannot do). But in my opinion, the difference audio wise is not as big as most people think, and the video we are commenting on is proof of that. Even if you add SFX samples and a real game behind, the Genesis can handle a very close rendition. In my younger days, people would mistakenly claim it was absolutely impossible for the Genesis to play a tune close to Forest of Monsters.
@@inceptional "wouldn't that be the equivalent of claiming the SNES can do 32 channels if you count simply recording/mixing four instruments at once for each PCM channel's audio? " That's not the same thing. You can record any number of instruments and output that through a single DAC channel, even on the Genesis/MegaDrive (though, the more instruments, the harder it is to get a clean signal at the sample rates these consoles operate). Here is an example of multitude (way more than 8) of voices + instruments playing at the same time through the PCM DAC on the Genesis: ua-cam.com/video/zG1H_88Vmh0/v-deo.html The difference is in your initial request: How do you invoke more than one sample (SFX) at ANY time, and not just play it back prerecorded like in a song? The answer is, playing it using independent sound channels. You can also have independent volume control or in the case of the SNES, other audio effects that are not part of the original recording. The problem with the SNES is that for the most part, the hardware limit (as far as we know) was already reached during its timeframe, while in the case of the Genesis there was still space to explore in terms of maxing out what the console's hardware could do. Specifically, the Z80 processor happens to be good for overcoming some of the problems in terms of digital audio playback. In the SNES side, there's no other chip (in the console itself) that could help you do a "software" mix of more channels, so you are not going to go beyond the 8 standard ones.
This is great, I'd say yours and Hellfire Saga's cover are both good for their own. Yours is more accurate to the original while the latter is it's own beast. Good job, this is very faithful to the original.
Do you happen to know who composed/arranged which songs? Which were done by Masanori Adachi, which by Taro Kudo?
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I just investigated, but I cannot find exactly who composed each. I found this page where, except for the old Castlevania music, it credits both composers for every track. So, I don't exactly know if this information is wrong or if they actually worked together in the making of each song. www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Super_Castlevania_IV_(SNES)
But how come back in the day no genesis game had music sound this good? Does it take a lot of space in a cartridge?
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I don't know. I should try romhacking some day and see how the music works inside a game. Anyway, I don't think there would be any problems. For example, all the intruments, however you make them, should take the same space I think. Thank you!
We have MUCH better tools now for creating/editing FM instruments (it was mostly typing in numbers, waiting for it to download to the Genesis, and seeing what it sounded like back in the day). I worked on games in the 16-bit era and the composers would've killed for something like Chipsynth MD or Deflemask.
You obviously did not grow up with sega. Most games had amazing music on the system as long as you avoided American games. Try master of monsters ost or Herzog zwei.
@@TeamTrainWreck I still like most Japanese games Music better but there are always some exceptions and for example I think the music from Ecco 1 and 2 as well as Mega Turrican are some of the best on the system.
I'll tell you something: I think the soundtrack in Castlevania IV is way better than the one in Bloodlines, so it's kinda cool to hear the Genesis doing a decent version of the SNES tunes. I'm curious though, where would all the sound fx go if the tune is using all the normal Genesis sound channels plus all the Master System legacy channels just to do the music? Or is that not something you take into consideration when doing these Genesis versions of tunes from SNES games?
No one takes that into consideration. Well, except for Konami; they only use 6 sound channels on the SNES and 8 sound channels (Hyperstone Heist driver)/5 sound channels (Vampire Killer driver) for the MD. Normally others would just cut channels when sfx play. A big example would be Super Metroid. Mother Brain's Hyper Beam cuts 4 channels due to playing 4 sfx when it happens.
@ Great! Here are my suggestions thus far! Super Mario Bros. 3 - World 1 Grassland (Sega Genesis Remix) Super Mario Bros. 3 - Toad House (Sega Genesis Remix) Super Mario Bros. 3 - Hammer Bros. (Sega Genesis Remix) Super Mario Bros. 3 - Airship (Sega Genesis Remix) Super Mario Bros. 3 - Fortress Boss (Sega Genesis Remix) Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Oil Ocean Zone (Snes Remix) Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Chemical Plant Zone (Snes Remix) Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Wing Fortress Zone (Snes Remix) Black Tiger - Church of Death (Round 7) (Snes Remix) Super Castlevania IV - Cellar (Sega Genesis Remix)
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@@davidspyro Really cool requests! I should definitely give SMB OSTs an opportunity. So, I'm gonna start with one of these.
Trying to understand this, could you help? The two sound wave patterns on each channel, is that for left and right speaker? So top one is left and bottom one is right?
2 роки тому+2
Haha sorry, I'm not really good making these oscilloscopes. Every channel is labeled with its name on the top left. Each one shows the left and right waveforms, one above the other. In this video I'm showing 10 channels, numbered from top to bottom, 5 on the left and 5 on the right. I hope I helped, don't really know how to explain it.
If only the SNES & Genny would've just had a few more sound channels & could've had much larger cartridges, arcade games like MK2-3 & Killer Instinct would've sounded way better
No .. this is not as good as your original version .. this sounds worse to me,am i missing something idk ? Your original sounds amazing,this one doesnt sound as accurate in tempo and also some of the instruments sound noisy (FM1) mostly and has a ladder sound when decending that doesnt suit it,did you change the bass and drum sound,it has less upfront sound to it,timing to me seems not the same too. Im still hitting LIKE coz well its still amazing dont get me wrong,you seem to choose all of my fav game music and this one is no different
2 роки тому+1
I gotta point out that the drums are the same. They sound slighty different because this was recorded on emulator GENS Kmod, and the other was just a .WAV file directly extracted from Deflemask. And the tempo is the same, but of course it can feel different depending of the cover nature. In the end, I'm glad that you and other people point out the differences between the two versions and explain own preferences about one or the other. After all, that's exactly why I made two version. Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it.
@ yeah, well, with what I said before, it sounds like you worked hard on a new bass instrument and the result is a pretty decent fretless bass sound. and i think it captures the grit you were talking about and ends up being more cohesive and closer to the original. The only thing left is to figure out how to get a delay pseudo reverb outta the keys for the whole track, not just right before the loop :p
![Donkey Kong Country - Aquatic Ambience [YM2612 cover] (Sega Genesis Soundchip)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FBjg3jDQ28k/mqdefault.jpg)
0:24 the lead is identical, wow.
1:23 that sounds so good.
Holy cow, that organ instrument is dead on
Wow this really captures the feel of the original. Sick
It's been proven, Genesis could have its Castlevania IV version and keep great OST quality.
Sort of, but if this track is using every one of the Genesis sound channels plus all the legacy Master System channels to mimic the SNES tune here, where would all the sound fx for the game fit in? I mean, the music is extremely important to the game experience, for sure, but so are all the sound fx too. That's the bit I'm not quite getting here in what you just said. . . .
@@inceptional With the XGM driver you get 4 PCM channels for samples. That means you can play the 6th FM samples of this track on 1 PCM channel and still have 3 more PCM spare channels for SFX playback. If I'm not mistaken its more than enough.
@@inceptional "There is no way you can distort the math to allow Genesis to play 8 separate PCM channels, not matter what you do"
Its not about math, but how you process the data that the DAC channel (FM6) converts from digital to analog. If you can leverage the resources from the Genesis console in a smart way, digital samples can be mixed "in software" before they get sent to the FM6 register, so the actual output plays multiple digital tracks at once. The SNES basically does the same thing, but using 8 channels that have actual hardware specialized support for this task. In the case of the XGM driver, the developer leverages the Z80 processor to serve as the "hardware" support for this task (leaving the main processor completely free for use on game logic), though only 4 channels, and maxing 14khz. You can see an example of the driver in action here: ua-cam.com/video/VmQMyJSz2SI/v-deo.htmlm20s
Note that after half of the video, you get to hear the 4 PCM channels isolated, so you can judge how "good" or "bad" the samples play. IMO, more than good enough for the 16bit era.
"And, even with manipulating the Genesis to play 4 PCM channels, I'm pretty sure I read it has to be in a lower kHz to achieve this feat"
You are correct, the 4 PCM channels play at lower kHz than any SNES channel max output, but you have to also take into account that for most SNES games it was impossible to playback at the maximum available capacity, something you can only do in Demos. Also, the SNES playback suffered from other type of distortions like the Gaussian filter applied to all sound. Still, in the case of the XGM, the 14KHz limit only applies to the output of FM channel 6, the rest of the FM channels have close to a 32Khz limit and it's way higher for the PSG channels. Overall, I would say sample-rate wise, both the SNES and the Genesis can be very close or even sound clearer from the FM channels.
"From everything I've read and indeed heard, it's enough to get an approximation in any real use scenario and that's it, but it will not overall sound as good or as rich as the SNES can"
The SNES audio is clearly a more modern solution; it's obvious it has some advantages over the Genesis, like the multitude of PCM channels, the effects like echo, or the ability to change instrument pitches (which I think even the XGM driver cannot do). But in my opinion, the difference audio wise is not as big as most people think, and the video we are commenting on is proof of that.
Even if you add SFX samples and a real game behind, the Genesis can handle a very close rendition. In my younger days, people would mistakenly claim it was absolutely impossible for the Genesis to play a tune close to Forest of Monsters.
@@inceptional "wouldn't that be the equivalent of claiming the SNES can do 32 channels if you count simply recording/mixing four instruments at once for each PCM channel's audio? "
That's not the same thing. You can record any number of instruments and output that through a single DAC channel, even on the Genesis/MegaDrive (though, the more instruments, the harder it is to get a clean signal at the sample rates these consoles operate). Here is an example of multitude (way more than 8) of voices + instruments playing at the same time through the PCM DAC on the Genesis: ua-cam.com/video/zG1H_88Vmh0/v-deo.html
The difference is in your initial request: How do you invoke more than one sample (SFX) at ANY time, and not just play it back prerecorded like in a song? The answer is, playing it using independent sound channels. You can also have independent volume control or in the case of the SNES, other audio effects that are not part of the original recording.
The problem with the SNES is that for the most part, the hardware limit (as far as we know) was already reached during its timeframe, while in the case of the Genesis there was still space to explore in terms of maxing out what the console's hardware could do. Specifically, the Z80 processor happens to be good for overcoming some of the problems in terms of digital audio playback. In the SNES side, there's no other chip (in the console itself) that could help you do a "software" mix of more channels, so you are not going to go beyond the 8 standard ones.
@@inceptional Are you INCEL?
I'm glad you reworked this one. I'm hearing a huge improvement in your fm work.
Even this remaster still just gives that 80's horror movie synth vibe pretty good very unique
Shao Kahn says- "Excellent, Superb, Outstanding!"
Very nicely done, and a great conversion of the snes version! Congratulations
This is great, I'd say yours and Hellfire Saga's cover are both good for their own. Yours is more accurate to the original while the latter is it's own beast.
Good job, this is very faithful to the original.
Thats a great rendition , i think you improved the horn also ? sounds fantastic.
This is a great remix! Keep up the good work 👏
Thank you very much! I've seen a lot of your content, I'm a huge fan.
Do you happen to know who composed/arranged which songs? Which were done by Masanori Adachi, which by Taro Kudo?
I just investigated, but I cannot find exactly who composed each. I found this page where, except for the old Castlevania music, it credits both composers for every track. So, I don't exactly know if this information is wrong or if they actually worked together in the making of each song. www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Super_Castlevania_IV_(SNES)
Great improvement!!
This is just great!
But how come back in the day no genesis game had music sound this good? Does it take a lot of space in a cartridge?
I don't know. I should try romhacking some day and see how the music works inside a game. Anyway, I don't think there would be any problems. For example, all the intruments, however you make them, should take the same space I think.
Thank you!
We have MUCH better tools now for creating/editing FM instruments (it was mostly typing in numbers, waiting for it to download to the Genesis, and seeing what it sounded like back in the day). I worked on games in the 16-bit era and the composers would've killed for something like Chipsynth MD or Deflemask.
You obviously did not grow up with sega. Most games had amazing music on the system as long as you avoided American games. Try master of monsters ost or Herzog zwei.
@@heilong79 Toejam and Earl and Vectorman would like to talk
@@TeamTrainWreck I still like most Japanese games Music better but there are always some exceptions and for example I think the music from Ecco 1 and 2 as well as Mega Turrican are some of the best on the system.
Awesome!
Mega Fantastic!!
Best track of the game. So atmospheric.
I'll tell you something: I think the soundtrack in Castlevania IV is way better than the one in Bloodlines, so it's kinda cool to hear the Genesis doing a decent version of the SNES tunes.
I'm curious though, where would all the sound fx go if the tune is using all the normal Genesis sound channels plus all the Master System legacy channels just to do the music? Or is that not something you take into consideration when doing these Genesis versions of tunes from SNES games?
No one takes that into consideration. Well, except for Konami; they only use 6 sound channels on the SNES and 8 sound channels (Hyperstone Heist driver)/5 sound channels (Vampire Killer driver) for the MD. Normally others would just cut channels when sfx play. A big example would be Super Metroid. Mother Brain's Hyper Beam cuts 4 channels due to playing 4 sfx when it happens.
Excellent work on this. Keep it up.
Very faithful to original wtf
Just started replaying this game sounds spot on. You should do Play boy carti Cancun sega genesis.
Nice one
cool
Hellfire Saga Hack?:)
Fantastic job on this remix 👍
Have you done any Snes remixes,just curious.
Thanks. No, I haven't yet. But I sure will do.
@ No prob. :) Awesome,hey maybe I can give suggestions?
@@davidspyro Of course!
@ Great! Here are my suggestions thus far!
Super Mario Bros. 3 - World 1 Grassland (Sega Genesis Remix)
Super Mario Bros. 3 - Toad House (Sega Genesis Remix)
Super Mario Bros. 3 - Hammer Bros. (Sega Genesis Remix)
Super Mario Bros. 3 - Airship (Sega Genesis Remix)
Super Mario Bros. 3 - Fortress Boss (Sega Genesis Remix)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Oil Ocean Zone (Snes Remix)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Chemical Plant Zone (Snes Remix)
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Wing Fortress Zone (Snes Remix)
Black Tiger - Church of Death (Round 7) (Snes Remix)
Super Castlevania IV - Cellar (Sega Genesis Remix)
@@davidspyro Really cool requests! I should definitely give SMB OSTs an opportunity. So, I'm gonna start with one of these.
Well done. I actually like both versions, while this one is more accurate your original is more Sega sounding yet still not all fart noises !.
Trying to understand this, could you help? The two sound wave patterns on each channel, is that for left and right speaker? So top one is left and bottom one is right?
Haha sorry, I'm not really good making these oscilloscopes. Every channel is labeled with its name on the top left. Each one shows the left and right waveforms, one above the other. In this video I'm showing 10 channels, numbered from top to bottom, 5 on the left and 5 on the right. I hope I helped, don't really know how to explain it.
If only the SNES & Genny would've just had a few more sound channels & could've had much larger cartridges, arcade games like MK2-3 & Killer Instinct would've sounded way better
Sounds like to me you want a NEO GEO
@@solarflare9078 - I take it the Neo Geo had a better sound chip?
No .. this is not as good as your original version .. this sounds worse to me,am i missing something idk ?
Your original sounds amazing,this one doesnt sound as accurate in tempo and also some of the instruments sound noisy (FM1) mostly and has a ladder sound when decending that doesnt suit it,did you change the bass and drum sound,it has less upfront sound to it,timing to me seems not the same too.
Im still hitting LIKE coz well its still amazing dont get me wrong,you seem to choose all of my fav game music and this one is no different
I gotta point out that the drums are the same. They sound slighty different because this was recorded on emulator GENS Kmod, and the other was just a .WAV file directly extracted from Deflemask. And the tempo is the same, but of course it can feel different depending of the cover nature.
In the end, I'm glad that you and other people point out the differences between the two versions and explain own preferences about one or the other. After all, that's exactly why I made two version. Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it.
@ yeah, well, with what I said before, it sounds like you worked hard on a new bass instrument and the result is a pretty decent fretless bass sound. and i think it captures the grit you were talking about and ends up being more cohesive and closer to the original. The only thing left is to figure out how to get a delay pseudo reverb outta the keys for the whole track, not just right before the loop :p
@@themadmallard Not enough channels😔