The Strange Passions of Brexit
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- What has got into the English? Lesley Riddoch asks why have they vented their spleen on Europe instead of Westminster.
A discussion with Anthony Barnett and Fintan O'Toole. Chair: Lesley Riddoch.
I'm an English 'remoaner'. My parents and three of my grandparents were also English. My maternal grandmother was Manx with Irish antecedence though, but that's no help! I am so embarrassed, heart-broken and angry...
E
These are brilliant speakers. Why are they never invited by BBC to shows such as Question Time?
@K L I fully agree with you. Both shows have deteriorated badly. QT used to be my favourite show for years but now I can hardly bring myself to watch it. Politics Live is just chaotic and structure-less and JoCo now seems to be following Kirtsy Wark and Emily Maitless is just being rude to people. I can hardly watch Newsnight either in recent times for this reason.
LR has been on QT I'm sure.
Because neither of them is Jacob Reese Mogg or Nigel Farage.
It's because if they said any of these things to a QT audience they'd be booed off for being so ignorant about the UKs different identities, history and Brexit; they know little about any!
Unfortunately the passion for Brexit we hear is based on very loud and almost rabid diatribes from the Leave mob who don't understand that the vote from referendum is in no way binding.
Wishful thinking. Live with it. I'm glad Brexit will fail.
So what if it's not legally binding?
Imagine the exact opposite situation. Remain vote and we leave. I'm sure you'd have the same argument then...
Brliiant, thank you!
Excellent talk, thanks
The nation state is not natural, it is the result of a dream or a myth, every nation state has one and the UK is no different.
Times have changed dreams have changed and it is time that regions of the British isles went their separate ways.
Kent Invicta.
I'm Dutch. After the war we started the Benelux and together we founded the what is now the EU. We did not fight the EU, we maximized the opportunities the EU did give us. With respect to Foreign Direct Investments (FDI) in the world we are now the largest. We invest almost 6 trillion dollars world wide. This year we passed the USA in FDI size. The Dutch FDI is bigger then the USA, China, Japan or any other European country. With 25% of the citizens we invest three times as many dollars world wide than the UK (or Germany or France). Remember money is subtile power, the military is brute force. Even Trump stopped talking about new tariffs on e.g. EU cars, after he met with the Dutch prime minister and investors.
If you are a good trading nation, you maximize the opportunities, you have! The UK is clearly NOT a trading nation anymore, you kept fighting the EU, mocking about your lost empire. You kept seeing the continent as your enemies. For you the EU only has been a way to continue old continental politics with new means. You never recognized and maximized the EU's huge opportunities for world wide trade. As a trading nation and as a political power you failed and the proof is Brexit, the Brexit deal and the huge difference in FDI between two old naval trading nations!!!
Well said.
Bert,
You're so correct...all I can say.
Exactly.
Be well.
Bruno Brizzi Maccaferri.
So sad what a small portion of our country is doing.
highest FD! is in the dutch DNA they have always kicked above their weight when it comes to international trade, this is not only about trade this is about getting rid of british law and adopting napoleonic law which the EU uses, do you know the difference ? because that is what brexit is truly about. thats what the UK means when it talks about sovereignty.
Agree there ( but mocking about doesn't mean 'mokken over' btw ;) not sure if this is what you meant to say there )
I'm Irish, and I'm forever grateful to England for their welcoming friendship, generosity and total lack of prejudice. I emigrated to London in 1959. I received a Senior County Award from the then LCC and later a Major County Award from the GLC. Ireland could never give me the free education in Architecture which I received in UK. We are joined at the hip and for that I'm thankful.
My education was draped in English culture - Shakespeare, Milton, Shelley, Gilbert & Sullivan, Round the Horn, , Just a minute, The Goons, Yes MInister, Faulty Towers, I could go on forever.
Why has England deserted us?
Good talks and good discussion. Something that nobody's been saying, so far as I know, is that English people like myself are in fact the most European of all: ethnically and in our language we are a fusion of German, French, Norse and Celt. It should be part of our identity to understand that we cannot be anything other than an intrinsic part of Europe, and deeply interested in playing our part in Europe to the full - especially in the project of the EU.
The government should get the leavers to do a Ancestry DNA test it would blow their minds
The EU is a National Socialist [Nazi] bureaucratic nightmare intended to be a stepping stone toward global enslavement to the banksters' "New World Order". What on Earth does all that have to do with having European genetic and cultural ancestry?
Malcolm Lockridge that’s just a silly comment, what is it about petty nationalists that they want to paint everybody else as Nazis. It’s especially bizarre / pathetic when talking about a left of centre largely Belgian civil service.
@@andrew300169 That Malcolm has got a bad case on Steve Bannon disease … I am ashamed of what is happening to this country
@@malcolmlockridge1853 - I'm sorry, but comparing the EU with the Nazis is absolutely crazy. In the first place, the Nazi ideology was profoundly racist; the EU by contrast is highly inclusive, to the point that its welcoming of Syrian war refugees was thought by many to be going too far. Secondly, the Nazis promoted their programme by violence up to and including genocide and world war; the EU by contrast accepts new members entirely peacefully, and is prepared to allow the UK to leave equally peacefully (if we persist in doing something so stupid). Thirdly, the Nazi system involved dictatorship by one party and by one individual at the head of that party; the EU by contrast has a wide variety of political parties and a system of sharing power between a number of different presidencies which are shared among all the member states. Fourthly, the UK has itself made major contributions to the EU, most notably the Single Market which Brexiteers are so keen to leave, though it was in fact designed by Margaret Thatcher's government in order to improve UK access to markets across the Continent.
The EU certainly has faults and needs improvement. Since the British are racially and culturally at the heart of Europe, shouldn't we be continuing to lead this project towards the right balance of centralisation and diversity, the right balance of socialism and capitalism?
Civilised intelligent debate...Brexiteers will hate this
Must be fake
As civilised and intelligent as this was. It was not a debate. To have a debate you must have at least two opposing arguments.
Civilized yes, but much of it is off base i think.
Julian Taylor I dont HATE it, you must be an angry and also nervous remainer.
Go away in a quick jerky motion.The beggers thinking that they are clever.Please give me some more money ,
Due to historical reasons, an old French law entitled the Scots to have automatically the French nationality in case Scotland were a country by itself. I don't know if this law has been abolished.
There are now so many separate communities in Britain it's now literally impossible to pull in one direction. The multicultural agenda has achieved its goal. The UK is divided and in very very deep trouble. We have Christians, Jews, Sikh's, Hindus plus many more.
Africans, Asians, Native Anglo's, Europeans. Many many more. Before considering class, wealth or social status.
How on earth are they to find any common ground in our outdated left, right or liberal political system.
It's literally an impossible wish. This political system was never made to encompass all that. It just causes friction.
The only movements who will gain ground or traction now are what are wrongly discribed as far right.
Less diversity/complexity is the only common ground which people largely agree on.
This is not going to be contained to Britain. Nobody is immune from it.
Yes its too late and Brexit itself is dividing family, friends and colleagues as well. I think Britain as it is is broken but after the parts of the UK fall apart all the former nations of the UK will find their own path and build on on what they have putting all old memories of a long lost Empire and illusions of former grandeur away as should as should have beem done years ago.
I am German and I think we have to respect the fact, that more than half of the voters voted for a leave. The motivation of that decision is different at every individual person and probably based on prejudice, phantasy, one sided information, bad films , hopes, worries and whatever. Isn't that the case in every election? Who really has a clue.... and the gift to look into the future. A majority decided , over and done. There will be a new chance for a vote, maybe at the next election. It will make the vote more powerful and give the voter the feeling of real responsibility.
People voted, rightly in my opinion, to leave the EU. It is a ridiculous institution. Far from the plebeians not knowing what they were voting for, they voted positively to end the farce of our membership. The EU will fall and I am so proud of the role I personally played in bringing about the end of that idiotic organisation.
There is only ONE country that has benefited from the EU.
I like your reasoning and being respectful to the British.
But you unfortunately give the Brexiteers too much credit. I also wanted to believe that they have complex thoughts about their decision, when even a collage-educated Brexiteer I personally know and respect could only give me vague ideas about "freedom".
The truth that is hard to swallow is that the decision was - as correctly described in this video - made by uninformed and desperate people, and there is also certainly a racial element to it. There is nothing noble, nothing intellectual, and nothing far sighted about 90% of Brexiteers. They feel pressed against the wall - for all kinds of reasons - and want to shatter glass.
You and I are lucky that we don't have propaganda like "The Sun" in our countries; the analogon to "Fox News" in the USA. It is important it stays that way.
@@roberttausig9170 Imagine that - people who instinctively defend the record of nation-states, are racist. They are also desperate.
There's no desperation or racism in those who defend a 'post nation-state' future - who just so happen to agree with all your soppy ideas. There's no haunting of decades past. The only people desperate, stupid and haunted are the people you disagree with. Funny that!
Listen son, being a patronising and smug git is not a very effective way to argue.
The benefits of nations-statehood are proven and people defend the NS for very good reasons.
The very real concerns about those seeking to abolish nation-states, identity and cultures, are very real and legitimate concerns. The continued use of tariffs to further engorge mega-capital at the expense of the poor, is also a very real concern.
Actually, I made all that up. I am just a puppet of dark forces who want to undermine your moral empire. LOL!
Your views are actually typical of mid 20th century crackpot, paranoid politics and also the emetic that is deluded social democracy. To combine psychotic and fanatical politics with nauseating and liberal smugness is a new low in politics. Your lot should be congratulated on your unthinking and blinkered wide imagination. Truly, anything that you want is true and false simultaneously. Such is the paradigm we Brexiteers are fighting. Not all realise this, but that is to be expected and is also no bad thing.
Your kind and your ideas deserve to wither. Unfortunately, there's a lot of self-righteous, self-satisfied moral cretins - enough to be an existential threat to the future of the nation-state in Europe. We will fight you and your evil - all the way. There can only be one real winner. The fight is for keeps and to the death.
EVERY decision in one's lifetime comes with a 'pricetag'...and the tricky questions is WHICH price one is willing to pay... the life WILL defently present the bill...NO decision is for free - 'south or north', 'tea or coffee', 'diligence or laziness', 'angst or courage' - one HAVE TO pay in any case.
(Germans know this full well - the price they've paid for electing Hitler was horrendous)
Fintan has great command of the situation.
Excellent, intelligent and engaging discussion. Finton o Toole has a great analysis as usual, so do the others.
A couple of comments: The feeling of being surpressed by the EU is NOT unique to the UK. As a Dane following the Brexit debate it is funny to see that the EU sceptics use EXACTLY the same arguments in Denmark and in the UK. So I am not sure I belive this idea that it has a lot to do with Empire and WWII. Similarly, when Denmark joined the EU I don't believe it was considered succes. It was, to a large extent, regarded as a neccessary thing. Just like when the UK joined. Now, however, the support for th EU is growing in many Eu countries. But this is NOT thanks to Junker & Co. This is because we can see the alternative: Trump and Brexit. I think it is sad if the UK leaves. BUt I think it could have happened in any EU country (especially if the vote was called for right during the biggest refugee crisis since WWII).
I agree. Poland or Italy would probably have been next had they not seen the spiral death dive the UK is currently in.
@@xyzzdoe3674 I have no idea what is going on in Poland, but I don't understand why would Poland leave EU when they got so much out of it, for countries like Poland/Hungary EU is such great opportunity, why would you leave? , you don't like something? understandable, change it from inside should be a better idea
@@Essemm52 that's why 95%for the EEU laws and regulations had UK approval. Many EEU laws and regulations were proposed by the UK. How come that UK was being systematically forced by the EEU?
UK had great influence and veto power. What's up with all this story? Think first who will gain the most with all this Brexit. Remember that the ones campaigning for Brexit are pretty wealthy, so think.
@@Essemm52yes they are, but think who will get out with their own interests protected? Farage family has German passport, what that means? come on, UK always had everything done his way and as soon as got a wait answer said EEU is a bad wolf.
@@Essemm52 Well, you just made my case. Why do you think that your son's partner is applying for the Dutch passport? Advantage of being an EEU citizen. Farage has applied for German passport, that was refused due to false statements about his residence. Apart from that, I used to be an euro-sceptic, but after listening many Brexitiers arguments and knowing the EEU reality, made me a pro-european. I know very well what's going on in the continent. I lived there for 30 years, I have properties there I have family there. If the issues are immigrants, in the last decade their number has been falling. In UK since Brexit vote people coming from outside of EEU has increased, while EEU has decreased. So if it was about immigration why UK allowed them to enter UK? EEU laws allows each country to accept or reject migrants. According to EEU laws of freedom of movement, anyone from the EEU can live in other countries just for 3 months to look for work, after that they can be sent back to their countries. If they have means to support themselves ( income) then they can stay in the country that they are moving to. Regarding courage of leaving the EEU, why should someone who is in a good place live it to look for a maybe? Remember that money (great UK economy) goes very fast, because depends on external factors as internal ones.
I feel almost certain that anyone from any part of the island of Ireland who can prove that they have at least one grandparent who was born anywhere on the island of Ireland - is entitled both to apply for and to be issued with an Irish passport. However, do please feel free to correct me if I am wrong,
You are correct.
That's correct. The applicant just needs to have their birth registered on the foreign births register.
Absolutely correct, unfortunately my wife (née Meloy) has to go back to her Great Grandfather for an antecedent born in Ireland.
Very good question at 19:45-20:05
Disappointed with the talk, I thought it will talk about how this is related to misinformation and voters drawn to extreme and uncompromising sides and how three centres of western civilisation are paralysed ( Washington, London and Paris). When I saw the title I was happy somebody finally figured out a way to articulate and analyse the strange times we live in but alas they turned out to be legitimate but age-old Irish concerns which some obviously will dispute because the English aren’t a monolithic group of people. We really are missing what’s happening with Brexit, Trump and the rest of it, there is indeed strange passions at play that somehow inhibit logical thinking in everybody involved including the EU and the various factions on either side of the Brexit debate. We are now at a stage where any option taken will have serious ramifications and the only democratic option available will decimate complete sectors of the economy. Similarly the other option, after May’s deal was rejected yesterday, will decimate democracy itself in the UK and it will be hard to claim the UK system of governance is under pinned by the principle of democracy and freedom and by extension this will be true of other western democracies because this virus seems to be unstoppable and very contagious.
@Galbis Abdi- what's going on is that nutjob crackhead internet scumbags like yourself inhabit a loopy virtual world of over-information where, with your limited intelligence, you constantly fail to separate truth from reality. Get off the fking internet and get a job you half-wit waste of space. You and your fellow nutjob social media shitheads are the problem.
What are these guy's chatting about they don't get it
It's very simple and not a new phenomenon. Nationalism. England has retained a colonial attitude as a result of its failure to come to terms with its Imperial history. Fintan O'Toole has a point, here. Trump is an old fashioned America Firster (America First was an isolationist, quasi-fascist, nationalist movement). The two phenomena are distinct manifestations of right-wing, nativist Nationalism.
@@johnelrick8945 This revolt against the EU isn't unique to the UK (and US). There is unrest rising in many Eu member states. People are simply getting fed up with EU policies and control, while other people try to defend the EU because they are getting something out of it.
@@praapje like whom
As far as what I see the mess with brexit has made the EU closer.
Will someone please tell me what the Convention is?!
Watch the movie Brexit; in the USA, it's on HBO. It supports everything being discussed here.
I was born in Wolves too! New Cross hospital but now live in Burbank CA
One statistic that boggles the mind: 1/3 of the UK economy is the sharks of the City of London! Can that possibly be true?? If it is, it says nothing good about the UK. Rentier activity is the opposite of noble.
Not a word addressing the progressively more anti-democratic nature of the EU. Nor the near impossibility of reforming it. Nor the economic policy straitjacket that is the Euro for those unfortunate enough to have given up their national currency. Look what was done to bully the Irish, and the Greeks to serve the financial elite. No dissent in this room to all that.
You will find all that in a video called 'The Strange Passions of Brexiters'.
@@taintabird23 Concerns about those points are not strange passions.
@@jmccullough662 That depends on your perspective.
In WTO the British will find the Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Indians, the Chinese and all it's former victims, waiting for them to arrive with their hopes of "easy" trade deals...
I think the Argentineans will be very generous. Oh Karma will hit very hard.
This is just a fantasy view. 1) money will decide 2) most companies may be domiciled in a particular country, but their ownership isn't as simple as you simpletons imagine. India and China will have very good relations with Britain - as will much of Africa. I have no idea where any of this is going.
@@damianbylightning6823 your last sentence was a nice summary.
@@benghiskahn3673 Ta!
What you and others fail to see is that Britain sits in the middle of the world. Its timezone is good. Its location is good. It's between US and far east. The language of commerce is English. The lang of tech is also English. London has anything and everything a bored banker's wife may want.
You may want to imagine kinds of 'justice' cartels, but these ain't gonna happen.
Bring on Brexit!
The fiat money system is a disaster whether Brexit happens or not. I think that it is disingenuous to state that stopping Brexit avoids a crisis. A huge economic crisis is looming whether Brexit happens or not; and this time the Central Banks have almost no interest rates to cut. There is no ammo in the barrels of the central banks - the US debt is at 20trillion and the UK has tripled it's debt since 2008. The £ has been falling since way before the referendum.
It takes time to build a complex multicultural entity such as the EU. USA took a long time even for the dollar to become a strong currency. The EU is a great opportunity to offer to the world the benefits of belonging to a strong united entity. No more internal wars and just concentrate in eliminating the hate and rencor that for many years was the cause of many disputes and wars.
well said .....
Soooo....., they persist with a UNelected EU Commission that meets in closed session, that wields power of creating law and Policy over Elected National governments, with a EU parliament that IS Elected , but can's table new law or policy , but only rubber stamp their new orders passed down from the commission, and you think that's a good foundation?
"The EU is a great opportunity to offer to the world the benefits of belonging to a strong united entity."
The EU is a common market for member states, its not about helping the world, to the extent that Europeans think that, they are deluding themselves.
@@farmerned6 Soooo...
The next leader of the Conservative Party (when the ERG has stabbed Theresa May in the back) will be chosen by about 90,000-odd members of the Conservative and Unionist Party and will then become Prime Minister. And, I think you need to remind yourself, that only the Members of the House of Commons are elected. And they are elected as members for Constituencies that range from about 21,000 voters up to 114,000 voters each and each of those constituencies elect 1 member. And since we still use the archaic first past the post system, it is quite possible to gain a majority in the 80s (56.2% of the seats) with only 43.6% of the vote.
So we have a flawed electoral system electing Members of the House of Commons quite haphazardly, a Prime Minister chosen by 90,000 members of a private club, and Government Ministers who are chosen by that Prime Minister by a system of private patronage, a Civil Service, entirely unelected, but you think that there's something wrong with the EU.
The Institutions of the EU...
1. The Council of Ministers - Elected heads of State or Government of each member country.
2. The Council of the European Union - Ministers of each member state Government.
3. The European Commission - 1 Nominee for each member state Government. A nominated President. all democratically confirmed by an open vote in the European Parliament.
4. The European Civil Service - professional European Civil Servants (about 32,000 - set against over 400,000 UK Civil Servants) working for each Directorate of the Commission and each Commissioner.
5. The Court of Justice of the European Union.
6. The European Central Bank.
7. The European Court of Auditors
8. The European Parliament - Elected Members.
I tell you what, you list out the various Institutions of the United Kingdom Government and tell us all which of those is elected, how many of them there are, whether they meet in secret and so on and so forth. Go on, give it a go.
@@petergaskin1811 Think u just slapped farmer neds arse !
I voted out purely on my own life experience and how life has changed, and not for the good, since we signed the Maastricht treaty. U can not argue with how this has had a negative affect on our daily life, nhs, school places, doctor appointments, housing, the absolute influx of foreign lorries on our roads and the effect that is having not only on our environment but the chaos it causes when these lorries can not continue there journey for whatever reason. Does no one else see this?
You blame everything on the EU. It's an easy scapegoat to project your problems/feelings on and you don't need to look at your own failures. Your points about NHS, school places, doctor appointments … are national responsibilities, I don't see where the EU influenced them. En contraire, with Brexit a lot of doctors, nurses etc from the EU will return and the situation in the NHS will get worse.
What about the foreign lorries? If you don't want Just-In-Time production then you're probably right that Brexit will change that; but with the foreign lorries the accompanying companies and with them the jobs will leave the UK. Lorries don't "journey for whatever reason", they deliver goods for companies!
urmeli0815 I have not blamed everything on the Eu, we as a country have to take some responsibility for signing that treaty, but our way of life has changed dramatically since we joined the single market, before that hardly any lorries were seen, waiting at a&e was very minimal, u could call a doctor and he would even come to your home, housing was not at crises level. Life as I knew it is not so now. Wages r not in line with being able to buy a home now, house prices have gone so high that someone on low wages can no longer buy. U do your research I have lived it, don’t take my word for it. Check out the Barcelona treaty, first 3/4 pages.
@@shimmeringshadow9524 For sure all our lives have changed since the 90s as the world around us has changed. 9/11 happened. The war in Iraque destabalized the whole region. Financial crisis in 2008 which started in USA. China is rising. Trump ... but the EU is the culprit.
- I don't get the lorry argument: how did all the goods got transported before? Via teleportation? Or maybe there just weren't that many goods. So you want to reduce choice? Or close down Amazon?
- A&E, doctors: the average age increased significantly so people die later but therefore visit the doctor more often; more doctors visits in general; attractiveness of the profession declined, especially in the rural areas (long hours, work&life balance ...). Again, what does the single market have to do with this?
- Housing: agree with you here partially, but I think this is mainly because of the general tendency to move into larger cities. Housing costs in rural areas are quite low but the local infrastructure (pubs, shops, etc) is dying and therefore not attractive anymore. For me a lot of bad planning of national politicians.
I looked up the Barcelona declaration (which is not a treaty, didn't you first say Maastricht?): the content sounds reasonable for me albeit quite generic. Can you enlighten me where this declaration has anything to do with your arguments & the single market.
I really try to understand but sorry for me this is just a mish-mash of arguments which I suspect ends in the mother of all arguments which is "it was all better before all of those immigrants flooded our country".
@@urmeli0815 "The war in Iraque destabalized the whole region."
What do the 2 gulf wars have to do with Brexit and the day to day lives of British people? Comment is off the rails from the getgo.
@@lieshtmeiser5542 Thanks for ignoring basically every argument in my comment. So you don't think that the Gulf wars had any influence on the situation we have in Syria today? And you don't think that the number of refugees from Syria woke up the Far-Right movement which then triggered xenophobia in the majority of the British press?
Again my question: why is the EU the culprit?
P.S.: today is the day an unelected British PM suspended the parliament for his No-Deal plans. I hope @pam lilley likes this kind of change to the British democracy.
P.S.S.: her original comment contained this sentence of gold "but the chaos it causes when these lorries can not continue" ... wait until you see what happens when No-Deal strikes
He's hit the nail on the head just look at British newspapers
Here are the full lyrics of my BREXIT SONG
which you can find on iTunes - Jed Ford.
BREXIT, BREXIT, BREXIT.
Parliament, the asylum, where the lunatics have taken control
Commons, Lords, there are hundreds with many like Ole’ King Cole
A Brexit bomb like dynamite chose freedom n’ sovereignty
To remain, the people said, was no better than slavery
-
That Referendum was a great-mistake, cos the MPs they knew best
With many of them older now, they’d soon be aid to rest
Brexit Leavers were confused, Parliament would put that right
But their mistake was their contempt for people ready to fight
Chorus
Brexit, Brexit. Which-means a Union-Exit
Parliament’s been shaken with dread
Brexit, Brexit. With less than a clear exit
Boris said he’d be better off dead
Instrumental
Right Honourable this, My Noble Lord that, they lay down the next decree
They’re up and down like Jack-In-The-Box, impervious to you and me
But as with a fox in that ole’ hen-house, things just aint the same
Three years ago, the people chose, to end their political games
-
They said there’d be starvation. That the Martians would invade
There’d be a plague-of-locusts; we’d be better with the ‘Last-Post’ played
They said that day would turn to night that it could not get worse
They cried, invasion, Armageddon, and the end of the Universe
CHORUS repeated
Brexit, Brexit. Which means a Union Exit
Parliament’s been shaken with dread
Brexit, Brexit. With less than a clear exit
Boris said he’d ‘’be better off dead’’
CHORUS repeated-again
Written & recorded by Jed Ford.
The rust belt areas in Britain perhaps see the EU as part of globalisation which some blame for the decline of heavy industry. I dont fully agree with this as climate change would have forced a move away from coal anyway. Immigration from the EU and the ECJs role in asylum policy is also a political factor in some of these areas, ironically despite them often being very White areas. Another issue is that the UK was a large net contributor to the EU, because they joined the EU later on when the rules had been made on this to suit France and Germany. Fourthly, as the former foremost imperial power, England finds it psychologically difficult to process the concept of being subject to collective EU laws. I dont agree with Brexit but I think these are the main reasons.
Thoughtful response. The Remainers should have stressed the practical/positive realities of staying in, and that Brexit was an interesting idea - but ONLY on paper. ie - Stay with what we know. Ironically, that is what the Remainers did in 1975 and look what happened.....
I don't feel European, I don't even feel British. I feel only English, and I'm fine with that. I dare say I like it.
Hard to find an Englishman who doesn't secretly worships himself!!
Im lookin forward to an independent UK again, the country has a lot to offer so long as it doesnt mire itself in protectionist socialism again.
I'll still feel British ( & European) even after people like you have broken up the country and there will be nothing good coming out of it
I voted LEAVE.
And I WOULD vote LEAVE again.
Why?
Over crowding.
Too many criminals came to the UK when we opened the door.
You need to take some time to look at that.
Do you academics really think these people came here to help us?
Or
Help themselves?
You must do research on this to get to the truth.
But who does this help ?
Well each and every time I meet a remainer they extol the virtues of CHEAP LABOUR.
Cheap gardener
Cheap builder
Cheap cleaner
At some point one must ask why do the remain clan not see any negatives?
Well they have bought a home, and it goes up in value.
Well , so many people pulled their pensions out following BROWN.
They then put it into buytolet.
This put house prices up.
So a win win for remain people
But good honest people can't afford a deposit, can't afford their own home.
Winners, REMAIN.
It's a win win, create a problem then cash in on it.
UK has the most diverse wage platform.
This has been bulldozed by cheap labour .
When you win win win all the time it's very hard to look at the consequences of your decision and the fall out to come.
Wake up world .
The City of London is the problem. Not London, but the City of London... there is a difference
Brexit is not British, it is English. That is what is going on.
thephilosopherofculture.blogspot.com/search/label/Brexit%20and%20Brexiting
Lass and lassie - great!
too often the videographer fails to apply rule of thirds. A sole head should never be in the middle of the screen - it just looks awful - they should be off-centre facing inward...in some cases this IS done..
If we feel that our politicians and / or government are not doing a great job, why is it that we would think that another 'higher' level of government would be good at all ?
Higher in a sense but certainly less democratic.
We've had more or less socialism in Denmark since the German occupation ended in 45. Just saying.
Stop it
Thankfully we live in a democracy.More people voted to leave the E.U. than to stay in the Union.Why can't these TV people accept the fact.It wasn't a big trick.Lots of people had their own reasons for voting to leave.If more people would have wanted to remain then we would still be in the Union, but for better or worse that wasn't the outcome.They fail to cover any of the reasons why a lot of the English people wanted out of the Union.I saw a program on ITV where a young Asian lad came over for the sole purpose to get himself a free hip replacement on the NHS,(£15,000)a pop!He got the operation and as soon as he could walk again,he was off,back to Europe.Terraced houses with 10 or more eastern Europeans(all men)all claiming f**king benefits and sending the money home to wherever they came from.People got sick of paying for it all,and I totally understand why.
Care to have a re-count? Let's run the Referendum again. After all Parliaments can't last for more than 5 years and it's now (in 2022) more than 6 years since the Referendum so let's have some more of that old-time democracy.
How did it all work out ? Sovereignty you cannot put a price on it, too freedom !!! Happy Christmas
You never lost sovereignty or freedom. I don't know why you think you did. Is it cause a guy that got fired for lying, twice, told you?
You're an idiot.
Delusional brexiter. The UK was always sovereign. We've gained nothing, but lost trade and rights. We can no longer easily travel, live, retire, work, claim benefits and pensions in 30 countries. Our companies are moving there or closing
I was recently asked why the British don’t hate the Germans after the last century’s two major wars?
This came as a bit of a surprise to me, never having considered the issue. I then realised it’s probably because we are still too scared that Boney’s heirs will come out of the woodwork somehow.
24:06 is that Mike Galsworthy?
The English would like to see the breakup of the Union and we can all go on our different ways and good luck to you all. PS can the Irish repay the loan before they go?
And what loan was that?
The one from 08 that we paid back (with interest I might add).. Very kind of you
Ireland has now paid £358 million (€428 million) in interest to the UK on a crisis loan it gave to the State in 2010.
A total of £3.2 billion was lent by the UK to the Republic as part of an international rescue package of the State’s collapsing economy. The latest report from the British treasury says Ireland has now paid the UK £358 million in interest since 2011.
Since June 2014, the UK exchequer has received an interest payment of around £42 million every six months.
It will be March 2021 before the bilateral loan’s term is up. The final tranche of money was paid to Ireland in September 2013
Smiggo
Away on wit' ye, Smiggo.
As soon as you lot pay for the food and other resources that caused the genocide of the Irish in 1845.
I live most of the time in NYC .I was born in italy so I have two passports.
When I'm in the States many time I'm asked where do I come from.
My answer was, is always .
" I'm European,"
Then I may specify
EUROITALIAN.
I don't know any other way to be since Europe has ben part of my entire life.
I'm a baby boom generation.
Bruno Brizzi Maccaferri.
I am often asked the standard "hello" question and followed up by the "what country are you from?". I always answer in the same sort of way as you do, but I do say it is complex. Also, I am a baby boomer....just.
The thing is I am very happy to be European. I see it as a great thing.
When the UK joined the EEC, some people say it as a weakness. I see EU membership as a celebration and something extremely lucky.
@@stephenconway2468
We leaved better since , then , we knew who our enemy were.
Nationalism it's a bad dude...
An illusion in today's world.
Be well my friend and the best to you.
Bruno Brizzi Maccaferri
@@brunobrizzi933 - Be well my friend and the best to you too.
Never heard anybody introducing themselves as European. I would find that odd if somebody told me that. And I'd then immediately ask 'where in europe?' And nationalism is coming back - just look what's happening in every country in europe. For many it still very much does have a place. It doesn't mean different countries can't align, cooperate and love one another, but denying nationalism's relevance can only strengthen it and push it into a more hostile form. Do not underestimate it
@@justingeneral3078
That's your problem.
I just stated a fact.
Be well.
Bruno Brizzi Maccaferri.
You remainers still don't get it !!!!
Gavin FreedomLover I think that you will find that you haven’t got anything 2/12021. Best of luck, you will need it!
I'm really aware I'm watching the fall of Great Britain.... Hip Hip HOORAY
Watching the fall of Great Britain go to specsavers because now our economy is thriving.
this guy is a Gem
It is refreshing too listen to sensible discussion about a complex subject.
It pains me to listen to some Politicians.
You mean like that idiot, liar Nigel?
It's sensible, only given the acceptance of their major assumptions as being sensible, which they aren't. The EU is a unquestionable good. The will for independence is irrational. The EU doesn't have superstate ambitions. All three are made and all three are woefully incorrect.
They are part of a political class who sees anyone who thinks differently as inferior.
Very good conversation
I'm welsh European.
What is so strange about English ethno nationalism yearning for the freedom that was severed from King Charles 1st.
The People talk of England and Britain as one, The UK was forced on the English by an absolute Scottish Monarchy that caused civil war within forty years and in recent times a Scottish dominant front bench Broke England up into nine EU Regions with no National vote.
The English 2001 Census form had no English Identity Printed on it unlike if you lived in Scotland you could be English.
The panel hit the nail on the head when it implies England within the EU, this would have meant the end of the UK (not a problem) and would not have worried the English, however there was those with a historical axe to grind and thought they could destroy England through the EU whilst holding on to their own identity.
Now We are where We are with the end of the UK imminant and as usual the English will get the blame even though its been over a thousand years since the last English king was defeated by a Viking with an anagram ( slang) for female Genitalia.
My word, you do have a Victim Complex.
They know the score, even though they are wrong on Brexit but, I don't like how the second guy starts referring to the audience as Remainers; Yes, the audience there were showing obvious signs of that, but it's being filmed and there's a wider audience. Sounds pedantic, but it just sounded vaguely cult-like and weirdly exclusionary, like he was only addressing the members of a secret club I wasn't supposed to be in...! Instead of an open debate etc.
They seem obsessed with identity in many ways!
But that was our Democratic choice. You remember Democracy, right? We are proud of our identity as Europeans even over our lesser identity as Englishmen.
@@petergaskin1811 Lesser identity?
Sorry if it didn't come across from 2 years ago, but I am pro-Brexit and both British, N. Irish, and European to an extent!
As a Brit happily living and working in Copenhagen for 38 years, enjoying the benefits that EU provides, my cultural identity has naturally been formed by European values. I noticed the question of English identity during the Scottish vote of independence in 2014, beginning to pop up without it being seriously articulated. As much as Brexit dismays me, being introduced to Fintan O’Toole and Anthony Barnett on this platform, is a great source of inspiration and hopefully inspire all UK nationals in a post-Brexit world.
The Convention,,think anew act anew,Thats a nice desk calendar motto,Why is GB obsessed with the words think and idea, Think tanks,,,thousands of them,,Academy of Ideas,,,festivals of ideas, All a substitute for thoughts/ideas, The USSR had 1000s of Congresses of Peace and Freedom, Same principle, D Sayers,,,translator of Dante,, wrote,,,an Englishman would rather die than think, ,,, most of them do, She was right,
I´m brazilian, and I´m God damn proud to be an european.
The Irish guy is a good representative of the all knowing all seeing elite ...god forbid anyone should have another position. Types like him ...opinion moderators are part of the reason the Brits want out, another reason is the Brits are in a different league in Europe ..they always saw themselves as unique and leaders ..they ran with the European ball as far as they could but when they felt they were losing their prestige and having their national ego being put down... they decided to break free to return to how the used to be...maybe its nostalgia or maybe its something else but I think they will go through a period of pain after leaving and later they will take off and become a real thorn in the European project.
They will prosper not because of Europe but despite Europe...they will be on the doorstep of one of the biggest economies in the world,
England is a world leader in many areas and in time will become one of the top economies on the planet again unshackled by the European rules and regulations...if they can't make water out of wine they will find some other way to get ahead, the lying, backstabbing, sneaky sons of bitches that the English are and always have been.
_"The Irish guy is a good representative of the all knowing all seeing elite ...god forbid anyone should have another position."_
And yet he's making more sense than anyone in the British government.
Quentin Browne Are you a graduate of Trump University?
I happen to think that you are bigly wrong there, buddy. Go back to watching football, it sounds like you're missing it.
Love SCOTLAND
ADORE Irish accent.
England does make me laugh
Is it the beautiful scenery you love about Scotland or what
Exactly that's the most important thing in life laughter which your never get from the other three.
Ah yes. The sneering, sarcastic high and mighty intellectual class as brilliantly depicted here. I'm at university and I recognise it a mile off. They don't hold as much influence over public debate anymore thank god.
By saying 'intellectual' do you mean thinking in depth?
@@petesheehan6927 No. That's called wisdom.
Yeah I'd like dumb people to be in power. Sounds grand.
You're right. The 'Lying Bastard' class control the public debate these days.
What bothers me is that the SNP want to leave the U.K which is devolving power to its regions and re-join the E.U which is doing the opposite, It is not just England its wales too by the way, All the SNP want to do is take Scotland out of the U.K by hook or by crook and they will try anything to achieve this.
But the SNP and Scotland voted to stay in the EU. Brexit might be the quickest route to an independent Scotland but they voted against it as they recognised how potentially devastating leaving the EU could be for the wellbeing of their people. Ditto for Sinn Fein and SDLP in NI. They temporarily put their agendas aside for the greater good.
Fishing isn't a reserved matter and yet Westminster will take control by February.
With one hand they give and with another they steal from our nation.
In the EU Ireland has more power than the Scottish parliament will ever have in the UK.
So what?
Correct and what ?
Making our fishermen wear our hairnet what the fuck . Let’s get get to the basics raping the uk ,s seas
Along the same lines, a historical perspective on what the EU is. ua-cam.com/video/nziEATOj5Yk/v-deo.html
I was sorry to see they could not get Jimmy Cricket on the panel, that is a typical Irishman
The fact that you see a grotesque comedy character as typical of any nationality speaks volumes about your intellect and prejudice - good luck with your amazing brexit, your hate doesn’t belong in a community such as the E.U. where all citizens deserve equality and dignity.
Try swapping the word English or British for Irish or Scottish and see if you note the Racism.
The EU has evolved hugely since the UK joined. Increasing its powers both at National level - and a massive process of enlargement - absorbing some very weak, often corrupt and unstable Nations. EU membership has often come hand in hand with Nato membership - this has caused huge tensions at the EU's Eastern Border with Russia. It has grown into a political & military project - without firm democratic institutions or consent. Several states including Germany never held a referendum to join - think about that for a moment. Other pivotal referendum results have been ignored - Ireland. It's the smaller, weaker, historically oppressed Nations that seek membership - lacking the strength, ability or confidence to go it alone. Those of strength with their own stable institutions - UK, France, Italy, increasingly resent it, and the huge financial burden it brings. France consistently polls it would vote to leave by a bigger margin than the UK. The EU is far from a settled entity. Sometimes it seems smaller places lurch to the EU as a reaction of self expression - like your ex wife finding a new partner and revelling in the - I'm over you message. If the EU fails - and there is a significant chance it could, these smaller Nations may regret antagonising their neighbours. The EU is living in fear that Brexit will be a success, and Nationalists like the SNP want to get an independence vote in the bag before it is - hence the urgency for votes and border polls. The EU should have remained a friendly association of cooperating Nations with sporting and cultural connections, with some mutual benefits. It's become too big, too fast, too political, too power hungry - with the reckless expansion it's biggest mistake.
Polls don’t show France wants to leave
Do you really think for one instant that any Nation, large or small, rich or poor would seriously consider leaving the EU for a heartbeat. Especially when they look at the public schoolboy clown-show that is Brexit. Wishful thinking is one thing, ludicrous delusion is entirely different. You should seek professional help.
Don't suppose that you are right or that you understand us and our reasons for Brexit. Academic prat !!
Well, at least they are trying to analyse the situation. Unlike you, you yob.
To have a different opinion to you makes me a 'Yob' does it, maybe you have a struggle accepting other views apart from your own Dickhead !!
@@simonsargent9514 You have not expressed a coherent opinion, yet you are opining, vaguely,. That makes you a yob. And you are supposed to put a full stop or a question mark after "own". Then there is no space after dickhead. The exclamations marks are supposed to be a maximum of one. You just keep on digging your grave deeper, you uneducated yob, soon to be even poorer when whatever crap you produce will sell even more poorly. TL;DR. I am just deriding you just as you are deriding the people in the vid, but I am doing a better job of it.
RM Domainer Firstly I am most certainly not an uneducated ‘yob’ as you describe me,. I am a practising criminal lawyer in the UK, and a successful one too. I think the fact that you assume that I am not educated simply because I do not agree or share your political views and values perfectly highlights your bias and uneducated views that ‘anybody who does not agree with you ‘ must be thick’ which is very immature, and shows a complete sense inexperience in many fields and aspects of life and social positions and views. The ‘Yob’ will bow out of this one by picking up on one remark that you made about being poorer to which I would respond by saying ‘ I would prefer to be poor and a master of my own home than a rich servant enslaved in another’. Europe will be far poorer without our massive contributions so don’t lecture me about being poorer because my morals don’t revolve around money. The British are unique, Europe did not listen to our concerns, our worries, our requests for change concessions e.t.c instead they arrogantly dictated how things would be and as a result a very disgruntled British nation voted out and now you seem to criticise us and the likes of me for that ..
@@simonsargent9514 . Calls people academic prats. Claims to be a lawyer. A title that one only attains by being an academic prat. "The Briitish are unique", yeah, you are a LARPER that remains a yob. That is what is unique about you and this wall of text, that you no doubt spent all of 15 minutes and a burgeoning headache to squeeze out of that keyboard of yours. You are pathetic and your nation will be even more pathetic in the years to come. Some criminal lawyer.. you can't even express yourself in your own language. Do you know how many errors you have in that magnum opus of yours?
Think ANew Act Anew Think the same.
The British make the hugely serious mistake that they beat the Germans. They didn't. They played a role in an Allied defeat of Nazi Germany. At any stage since the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, 70% of German forces were on the eastern front. The Soviet Union beat the Germans. With this total misbelief the "English" have never grasped the reality of the post WW2. PLUS, as this man says, how anyone can take a person like JRM seriously is highly worrying. Brian Oosterbeek Netherlands.
It never was a competition you idiot. The Soviet Union did what it had to do defend its territory as did Britain and the rest of Europe. The facts of the war are well known so we don't need you to come on here with your warped agenda and barmy twist on history. Britain can be proud of it's contribution but has never attempted to deminish the huge sacrifices made by the Russian people.
I could just as easily argue that mother nature beat the Germans since the harsh weather in Eastern Europe did as much to hurt the German forces as the Russian army did. In reality the allies beat the Germans and that included the British whose contribution was significant.
There is also a very interesting observation that it was the French who won the First World War.
@@Fowley1953 Well done for confirming Fintan O'Toole's claims. You are living proof that what he said is correct and you did it in your first sentence. And by the way, while British schools are refusing to teach the truth about their history, offering instead a distorted and fantasized version of its Empire the rest of us in Europe were being taught that the Second World War was won by the Americans in the West and the Russians in the East. Yes others played important roles but Britain completely hijacked the WW2 commemorations post-war and carefully nurtured a global perception of Britain being the leader of the Allies. It was not. In fact it is hundreds of years since Britain was able to win any war on its own without having to call in assistance. Britain is a lame duck nation that has never been able to rule itself successfully since the break-up of empire, in other words without the assistance and resources of other nations. All the signs are that it is on a downward spiral to oblivion. Brexit is nothing more than the last gasp of a dying power that has been struggling for decades to remain significant. To say its last gasp has been an utter humiliation would be an understatement. Oh well, one reaps what one sows! :)
@@Fowley1953 But other countries have moved on, Britain is fixated on WW2.
I support indy because I favour decentralisation where possible but a lot of indy supporters just want to blame the English for everything. I think it's the same with Brexit - it's easier to blame "the other" for the problem s you face rather than look at what you could be doing differently. I see a lot of Tory voters trying to blame the EU for our economic problems. Complete idiocy.
I also voted for Brexit but for the same reason I support indy - I don't like the centralisation that is consolidating in the EU.
Centralization and decentralization belong together. They are different sides of the coin. What's holding it together is the rim.
The guy on the right seems to think we're all into S&M and wanting to whip ourselves. Where on Earth does he get that from ?
The reason most people in Britain voted brexit is because they feel they are not being properly represented by the EU parliament in Brussels, who they mistrusted. Indeed, in the 2 years since the referendum results came in, the political elites have done everything in their power to prove the brexiters right in that regard; deep mistrust is the way I'd characterise the relationship now. The way that the majority of British voters have been characterised by remainers at all levels has been both shocking and worrying. You can see from the vile reaction how civil wars get started, and make for the most disgusting examples of human depravity.
I can understand that feeling, with our most prominent MEP being Farage, who never did anything to represent us apart from gnaw away at the foundation of the EU like the rat that he is. Unfortunately, instead of sacking Farage, 17.4 million of great British people voted to quit the EU, and the 40 million of us that didn't are no longer relevant.
leave was based on misdirected anger over the general state of the country blaming the eu rather than OUR govt who are responsible
No the reason is they know shit about the eu and who represents them there. Are trade deals more representative of what the british want?Fuck no, any disputes are carried out in courts,any change must be agreed to by a foreign government. Also why stop at the EU, Nato also doesn't represent you by that logic. What about the WTO? It's an international organisation that GOVERNS trade between countries? You have less representation there, wanna leave that one as well? Maybe you can have a referendum on leaving, based on exaggerated fears of lost sovereignty! Anyway you are what's wrong with politics, and why it's full of lying charlatans. Because their tactics work on you. They sold you snake oil Brexit, and they'll keep selling you crap until someone stops them. Not going to be you I suppose.
You never hear a remainer extolling the virtues of the EU. They don;t talk about the economic situation in Germany, or the wonderful employment opportunities in southern europe for young people, or the political stability that is so rife across Italy, Spain, France etc. No, all they do is target leave voters for abuse, because they lost, and they're too upset to figure out why.
They simply want to determine their own affairs.
5:25 is the only truth on the whole of this lecture.
I remember the debate about Europe. It never was about a political way forward. It sold it as a common market. Trade was the leader with nothing about becoming European.
Brexit is about dealing with one political system at a time. The EU has laid out its plan for its future, and this is not what the older generation feel happy with.
All political system is inherently corrupt. The EU Commission is seen as corrupt and harsh to its own citizens. I feel for the Greek people, also the Spanish and the Irish.
Also at some point a country will leave the EU. This is because of the political difference between the Commission and the people.
But you are European! You do realise that the British Isles are part of the European land mass o r did you miss school that day?
It was only ever the UK who thought it was only about Trade. Everybody else was more than happy to be part of something bigger.
The UK never had it's heart in the EU and at first the EU was reluctant to accept us in it you EU lovers should be glad the UK is leaving !!
Little Englanders were never educated in the changes that hat occurred to the UK(England) since 1945. Suez in 1955 should have warned about what had happened to Britain as a World power.
British people continued to be fed crap by mainly right-wing press about our continuing World dominance. Meanwhile our poor educational system, underinvestment in everyday technology, we were great in designing Concorde, atomic research, but our commercial engineering fell apart.
This continued through to the 2010s and poisoned a generation against the good things that the EU could bring.
@@normanchristie4524 do shut up you boring EU lover we are leaving and the EU is the past .
The future of the UK lays in it's independence if you love the EU that much you can always fuck of there and leave us so called uneducated little Englanders to build the independent UK the people voted for !!!
Near Dark All I say to you is read, study learn. We are European. Nationalism is mediaeval.
@@normanchristie4524 you claim nationalism is medieval while promoting European Imperialism . Exchanging one form of Nationlism for another and you claim to be the educated one ...Hahaha
Yeah I think it's you that needs to be educated !!
I don't describe myself as European I find it to be very small minded , I am a citizen of the Earth and my nationality is British.
Please do tell how great the European Empire will be .....let us see if your as convincing as your predecessor .. Adolf !!
Listened up to an absurd comment about JRM being "ridiculous" and
camp". Smh. Thk god u lot lost. These talks r basically remoaner counselling sessions. Enjoy.
I just wonder how you'd see him if he'd pushed for the other side purely for his economic interests.You'd probably perceive him as part of the 'establishment' then.
@@petesheehan6927 Supporting Remain as an MP and on economic grounds? Sounds establishment to me.
O'Toole has lost nothing, he's not British.
23:05 (approx) - " Britain won the war on its own" - part of the question. Anybody with a basic knowledge of history will know that it is manifestly untrue. Says more about the mindset of the questioner. No wonder Remain lost.
Brexit does not have to go anywhere, the English just have to be themselves. This is an example for all member states of the EU which is obviously falling apart in the wake of Brexit. The EU relently diminishes the sovereignty of all member states. When the the going gets tough, sovereignty is all you have to build on.
And the first thing you have to realise that your wet dream of the collapse of the EU is not happening now and will not happen in the future. And, as regards sovereignty, we never lost it in the first place. We had just as much sovereignty as EU members as we ever had at any time in the last Century.
The age old Irish hate grudges alive and well in 2019.A waste of time,with this group preaching to the converted.
More like _schadenfreude_
So, basically an echo chamber!!
How's Brexit going for ya???? hahahaha
bollocks - there are elections
finton ia proud to say i was the one who raised the union flag over trinety college forher HRH visit god bles her by the way i a true IRISH MAN
...nice little echo chamber there.
Remainers live rent free in your head
Was the northern Irish troubles racist? It appears you hated each other on differences of cultural and historic identity?
The East Ulster 6-county Sectarian Statelet was established to maintain a Protestant Majority, it can never give integrity to its existence, it would serve the English taxpayers well to not have to carry the tax-burden of the 6-county failed Statelet.
So the Chair nails her colours to the mast in the first 30 seconds...
Wales voted for Brexit as well as the English. Utter ignorance
Yes, but 12% of the population of Wales identifies as English, and we know what their politics is.
I have read your comments and replies carefully, all I see is a sore remainder who has some difficulty accepting that you lost and are having problems accepting the outcome. I can understand that but the outcome is the outcome and we are leaving thank god I just hope that you and others like you can burry you bitterness and frustrations (which I can understand) and work together to build a better future xx
I think Fintan is wrong to say that the EU has transformed Ireland...as though its the only factor. The collapse of religious faith (catholic faith) in Ireland and the UK is just as, if not more, important than the EU in transforming Irish society and values. When the UK leaves the EU, that altered social situation wont change much in my view. The most critical difference will be that the UK may well be on the outside of the tariff wall, and Ireland (and the rest of the EU countries) will be on the inside of the tariff wall.
@Lieshtmeiser
"I think Fintan is wrong to say that the EU has transformed Ireland...as though its the only factor"?
There are very, VERY, few Irish people who have more than twenty working brain cells who would agree with you.
It might be true that our EEC/EC/EU membership was not "....the only factor", but it was the transformative factor.
Joining the EEC/EC/EU forced us to grow up. It opened our minds to the notion that we did NOT have to blindly copy every stupid thing the British did, often long after they had stopped doing it because they had found out that it was stupid.
Joining the EEC/EC/EU gave us the possibility of going around, over, under or through the defining wall which was the UK.
It also massively boosted our confidence, as we got used to dealing as equals with the other member states, and being treated as equals.
Most importantly, we were able to compare ourselves with the other member states, and discovered that we were, in many ways, way behind the curve in terms of women's rights, labour laws, etc, etc.
"The collapse of religious faith (catholic faith) in Ireland..."was largely due to the fact that joining the EEC/EC/EU meant that the country became far more open, and the stifling censorship that characterised Irish society since the foundation of the state could NOT be sustained.
That new openness led to the uncovering of the scandalous sexual abuse of children, endemic in the Irish Catholic Church for at least 150 years. The documentation of the reality that the Catholic Church had been effectively operating as an international paedophile protection racket shattered the trust and deference which had characterised most Irish people's attitudes towards it.
There is also the point that the Irish experience of EEC/EC/EU membership has been radically different from the British, while the Irish political system is also radically different, and British people do not even want to understand this. They keep trying to project their own Europhobic memes onto Ireland, and they just don't fit.
@@gloin10 So are you saying you think that Ireland would have stayed isolated and catholic if it hadnt joined the EU?
@@lieshtmeiser5542
Yes, but that was never going to happen.
We joined the EEC in 1973 because the UK did. We could not have stayed outside, because we were utterly, pathetically, dependent on the UK as an export market. The UK took over 85% of our goods exports, which were low added value goods. Basically butter, cattle on the hoof, and unskilled workers, also on the hoof.
Had we remained outside the EEC at that time, we would have become a sort of poorer, western, version of Hoxha's Albania. Our economy would have gone into a huge recession, and emigration would have hugely increased.
It is interesting to recall that one the same day that Irish voters overwhelmingly approved our accession to the EEC by referendum, they also overwhelmingly approved a second amendment to remove the constitutional clause referring to 'The special position of the Catholic Church'...
@@gloin10 RoI became independent in 1949. With independence comes responsibility. Its freedom lasted approximately 23 years before it went into the EU.
I understand the argument you make, but it strikes me as being mostly excuses and fearmongering. Its a similar sort of argument made everywhere when difficult and disruptive decisions are made. The nub of the issue is 'i dont want to be worse off', sometimes being free means being worse off for a period of time...perhaps even forever. Thats the price that has to be paid.
If RoI had struck out on its own, it would face the same sorts of issues on trade and economics that you claim they faced when they were trade dependent on the UK, I ssee that issue in my country too, visavis huge trade with China, and the fear people have of losing it.
@@lieshtmeiser5542
The country which became the RoI on 1949, became independent in 1922, after the Irish War of Independence and the Irish Civil War. At which point, the country was devastated, and nearly all the industry on the island was in Northern Ireland, retained by the British. Our industrial sector consisted of brewing, whisky, and biscuits. Not to mention the fact that nearly all the capital in the country was taken out by the retreating British
Then came the Wall Street Crash and the Great Depression in 1928-9, which caused the complete collapse of the world trading system. The world turned to protectionism and autarky.
Next, the Second World War, which had a slightly negative effect on Irish trade, to put it mildly. The only positive effect was that the state was forced to set up Irish Shipping, in order to ensure that essential imports could arrive. A lot of those ships were sunk, and a lot of Irish sailors died.
We did not participate to any extent in the Marshal Plan, and the economy remained agricultural, with a massive dependency on the UK market until Sean Lemass became Taoiseach in the 1960s. He implemented T K Whittaker's blueprint, abandoned protectionism and actively sought Foreign Direct Investment(FDI).
"With independence comes responsibility"?
This is true, and successive Irish governments have done reasonably well, given the real limits under which they had to operate. Funding and building what was then the world's biggest hydroelectric plant was done under De Valera.
"Its freedom lasted approximately 23 years before it went into the EU"?
That claim is utter bollocks.
Our EEC/EC/EU membership has given us far greater, real, power and independence then we ever had. It has also improved the welfare and material well being of the Irish people amazingly. We have gone from being the poorest member state, by far, when we joined to the second richest, per capita, in the EU
It has also transformed the power balance in the Irish-British relationship...
Not to mention the reality that our EEC/EC/EU membership is itself an expression of our freedom...
We are a free country now. That has not changed. We have agreed that it makes sense to share some aspects of our sovereignty with the other 27 EU member states, when that makes sense. Freedom to choose is freedom.
Is France not a free country? Is Belgium, or Germany, or Poland, not a free country?
"If RoI had struck out on its own, it would face the same sorts of issues on trade and economics that you claim they faced when they were trade dependent on the UK"?
No, it would not. It would have had to go cap in hand to the USA, and the EEC, begging for a few crumbs, and would have had ZERO say in the terms and conditions being offered.
We would have been in roughly the same situation that the UK is about to find itself in - a minnow in a tank full of large, hungry sharks...
Oh, and we would have done so AFTER cutting off our access to what was then the destination for more than 85% of our exports...
These are NOT "...mostly excuses and fearmongering." These were, and, the realities of Ireland's situation.
We are a trading nation. We are among the most globalised countries on the planet.
"Its a similar sort of argument made everywhere when difficult and disruptive decisions are made"?
Recognition of reality is the first step in dealing with reality.
"The nub of the issue is 'i dont want to be worse off'..."?
No-one wants to be worse off. And no government should actively pursue policies which impoverish its own people.
"...sometimes being free means being worse off for a period of time...perhaps even forever. Thats the price that has to be paid"?
That might make sense, but ONLY if the people have been FULLY INFORMED about the consequences.
Otherwise, it is both utterly undemocratic, and profoundly, self-harmingly, stupid...
Which defines Brixit, in a nutshell, by the way.
Why do we have to become English Europeans ?
English are European?
Echo Chamber
not so much privileged, barely making ends meet in the street
You're beautiful
then go home, I did and am happy
What a bunch of nothingness. To stay in the EU means you want to be run by a bunch a bureaucrats of the commission, thank g-d the Brits came to their senses.
I have always respected the Scottish intelligence, but as a brexiteer I'm telling you this was the biggest load of twaddle I've ever heard. I voted on the financial viability of Europe, its protectionist policies and its lack democratic counter balances. I also prefer to be in charge of my destiny. Something I would have thought you'd understand. I'd suggest you go south and actually talk to people about why they voted and actually listen to their replies. Don't assume you know what others think.
We have let cowards run our country for to long
Britain gets what it voted for.
Bollocks I voted to get back the ability to control our own destiny whatever it may be good or bad we will decide. As for the Scots I want them to be totally independent so they can no longer interfere with our politics and the same for Nothern Irelandf
Rees Moog criticizes the Irish but he had no trouble moving vast amounts of his money to Dublin. It reminds me of the Republican's in the USA when after the 9/11 attacks they waved the flag and sold their stocks. We call them hypocrites.
No one would have believed in the early years of the 21st century that the UK was being watched by intelligences greater than our own; that as men busied themselves about their various concerns, the EU observed and studied, the way a man with a microscope might scrutinize the creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacency, men went to and fro about the UK, confident of our empire over this world.Yet across the gulf of the English channel, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic regarded our Kingdom with envious eyes and slowly, and surely, drew their plans against us..
The lady at the beginning could not be anymore condescending if she tried. Aren’t the Scotts superior! No the Scotts have the same issue as the English. The Scotts blame the English because they want control, the English blame the EU because they want control. The only difference is the scale.
Were you triggered?
Cyclops is alive and well.
Sad remoaners. Get over it. bring on Brexit!