I firmly believe that most entrepreneurs that enter the den with an offer of 10% or lower are simply looking for the advertising factor of Dragons Den.
Is not crazy. They just don't know how valuation work. You can value a company based on future cash flow (discounted cash flow method). The mistake people do in the den is that they assume valuation need to be based on actual sale which is not the case
I read your comment before watching the video and all the way through I was hoping they didn’t get investment because I agree with you, that was a ridiculous valuation
@@macfunker I've just realised someone has already mentioned it in the comments I didn't look 🤦♂️but yeh a start up with no sales or even orders etc . It's obvious. I can't believe the dragons didn't pick up on it.. maybe they did.
Just for laughs, I googled them. They are 700,000 in debt, sales of nothing, 6/10 reviews, typical arrogant inventors who couldn't find a winning product if they tried.
How many times do you have a cycle accident and hit/damage your helmet? Other areas of usage that might be more marketable would be construction, horse-riding, cricket.....etc
@@b-dogs1038 and you could buy 3 for the price of this one helmet. And if i have 3 cycling accidents I'd probably just stop cycling and for that reason I'm out
The foam compression is what saves your head. If the foam is compressed from drops or bumps then its not safe anymore because you've removed the ability to absorb energy. Ever notice how helmets for different things are made differently? That's for a reason. A hammer falling on your head is different from your head moving fast an then suddenly stopping.
I think they were silly to come in asking for 4% with such a high valuation no patent on the chemical and barely any sales. I wouldn’t spend £150 on a helmet either. Max £45
If Touker had been there he'd have spent 5 minutes talking about his bike website and then at the last minute offered all the money for 90% and acted offended when it was turned down.
I must say, I never ever get tired of Dragons Den, listen to the Investors and how they actually take great risks and could lose lots of money. However, it isn't easy when so few really bring to the table a really extraordinary invention of sorts. Of course, it also can be loosing a possible great success. No matter what, it is always a great risk on both sides.
No usp. It's not like people are constantly falling off their bikes or getting hit by a rain of hammers every day on construction sites. Current net worth: £ -600.000
Well although they are still trading, their accounts show annual losses running at around half a million per year for the past 3 years....so maybe they did need a deal
@@bobstirling6885I hope they stay afloat because my skull is shaped like a Neanderthal's and this helmet is the only one that fits my head. Being soft and pliable it's extremely comfortable.
People say that but I don't see it, it's not like the world watches dragons den and I like it but I'm not gonna buy one. Exposure doesn't mean anything will happen.
The only type of person to invest £100k for 4% on that business, is the type to walk around wearing a helmet like that and then jump on a special bus, licking the windows all the way home.
They were weak at addressing concerns. They almost seemed to agree with them if someone said a negative point. I reckon Deborah was going to offer at like 40-50% so it wasn't worth saying even.
His thinking was similar to mine with a background in Materials Science. I would have it rigorously tested scientifically and to safety standards before I would even think of investing at any amount, let alone at 2.5 million...
The role of a helmet is too absorb energy when an impact occurs. It dissipates the energy by breaking & deforming and compressing the foam/polystyrene. If it is too robust it will just transmit the energy to the skull and the skull & neck will absorb & dissipate the shock...
This is nonsense. The safety of a helmet is not about how much damage is done to the helmet, but how much damage is done to the head. If you want a robust helmet, just strap a rock to your head. Just like the crumple zone of a car, you want the helmet to be crushed under an impact, absorbing the energy of the impact, instead of your head.
Yeah and every time you do small invisible damage you reduce that "crumple zone". Bike helmet use the compression of the foam to absorb the impact. Every time the foam is crush and condensed you remove that compression factor. Get it? If not I can explain more.
Without a doubt this is an excellent platform to launch awareness internationally...One has to remember Dragon's Den US, Canada, Australia are all spin-offs of this the original and it is shown throughout the civilized world and the United States.
Innovating since 2013 Over £2 Million on Research and Development. Over a decade dedicated to improving head safety. Hedkayse produces long lasting protective equipment for the sports we love. Future proofed design is at the core of what we do. We will continue to expand our range of the safest and toughest sports protection on the market. Due to the value that Enkayse™ provides the sports industry we will start to see other brands licence the technology in their own products to help set a new standard for sports protection. ( 2023 they are bigger than ever )
They gave away the flaw right at the start by saying a chemist could work out what it's made from. All someone like Deborah needs to do is find this out and manufacture their own version.
Yes but they didn't have any certification to prove that it's good for multiple impacts. Part of the trouble might be that there's no certification available to say that a cycle helmet is safer than standard.
The valuation is calculated based on the amount of percentage they are offering for the investment amount. So in this example they were offering 4% share for £100,000. So this values the company at £2.5 million. If for example a dragon had asked for a higher percentage for their £100,000 investment then this would of lowered the valuation. For example if they got a 10% share the company would be valued at £1 million.
Valuation is simple an estimate of the current worth of the company. In other words if you were to sell it all right there you could easily get that amount from an offer. By buying in to a company that is worth 1 million through sells and assets will be diffrent than a start up company only worth 10,000. The problem is this is early stages of the product meaning more risks because they haven't proven their value. ... I hope this helps.
That’s ridiculous. He’s made more investments than any other dragon, is the only billionaire of the group and easily the savviest of them all. He’s helped lots of people become millionaires. Besides, which businessman wouldn’t value their own company? Would you?
Actually it's only safer if struck multiple times. A better question is what is the usable life of their helmet compared to standard bike helmets, which we are told should be replaced every five years because the materials used chemically start to break down and don't provide enough impact resistance five years after manufacture.
@@Testinator1234 Do you realize fillowing that logic, normal helmets offer no protection if there is no accident.... It's a ridiculous thing to say. The reason for ANY helmet is because an accident *might* happen, not because it definitely will. It's the same reason for an insurance policy. Sorry Jimmy, the particular injury you took wasn't anticipated by the maker's of the standard helmet, you'll have to get the rest of your nourishment from a feeding tube. But we did save a few bucks on the helmet!! Ridiculous Will everybody pay the extra money? No, of course not. But why not get the ones that will? I'll bet a lot more will than you think,
At the end of the day, it's just a helmet. Why didn't the dragons ask about the cost of producing the product and how to reduce the cost of production. Secondly, to reach the kind of sales numbers they anticipated, the retail price can't be above 50 pound. I will invest all the money for 20% of the business. Otherwise no deal..
I dont know if there is a real market for this. How many seriouse crashes do bike riders have? You can buy a decent one for $60 and probably last ages.
£150 for a helmet is not bad To bad given todays prices, when you think about it though guys who would spend £150 on a helmet are generally more than your average cyclist. And thus buy for example carbon fibre etc like me I have carbon full face helmets they were over £300 each ….
I think most people who pitch have no idea how to value their company, most of which are an idea, a product, and a few tiny sales. Take this business for example, a good product, no sales, and a fairy tale story about it being a huge seller without any proof. 100k valuation tops sounds more like it.
If the accident is so severe that a normal helmet isn't good enough, then it would be pointless. What use is a helmet if you have your neck or back broke? And if you keep having these severe accidents, maybe you should try a different hobby
In theory, a traditional helmet should be thrown away if it's dropped, so it's not just "accidents" that take a helmet out. Also, cyclists have little control over the actions of other road users so sometimes you don't get a say in whether you're in an accident.
They had a decent product but what killed their pitch was their extremely high valuation. I mean asking for £100k for only 4% of their company is shocking
How many accidents does the average cyclist plan to have over the course of their cycling career? lol. I rode for many years and didn't fall off once, not a scratch on my helmet. I think they're pie in the sky idea won't go anywhere.
They were far more smarter than their dumb acting....they could have talked about "K" mark, little bit about EU safety standard steps, little more in detail about patent, played around with chemicals, should have shared the materials use in fire dept, construction, cycling, police, armed forces, compared with bike helmets etc. Talked about product life cycle etc....they were just least bothered about the investment...im glad they are still up and running and licensing Enkayse™ tech...
I firmly believe that most entrepreneurs that enter the den with an offer of 10% or lower are simply looking for the advertising factor of Dragons Den.
Any pre-startup for sure.
and what do you know about venture capital?
I guess beyond my own education(Accounting, specifically Forensic Accounting), simple observation and common sense would seem to prevail!
@@zydhas2838 Absolutely good point!
Agree 99 procent
Just under 4%? No wonder Touker wasn't there, He doesn't get out of bed for 5%.
It needs a minimum of 51% for Touker to drag himself out of the bed
@@polovw89 if he doesn't have at least 10% he sleeps the whole day and goes out at night
@@skyscout3 Onlyfans?
Whenever Peter starts on a positive note - you know there is no offer coming😂
Not really 😊
The valuation and percentage is what destroyed their pitch
Only because they are trying to create a business in a socialist country
Yes the valuation is crazy
Probably just there for free promo
Is not crazy. They just don't know how valuation work.
You can value a company based on future cash flow (discounted cash flow method).
The mistake people do in the den is that they assume valuation need to be based on actual sale which is not the case
This was a marketing stunt. To raise awareness for they're product they had no intention of taking investment that's why the valuation was so high
I read your comment before watching the video and all the way through I was hoping they didn’t get investment because I agree with you, that was a ridiculous valuation
ditto
@@macfunker I've just realised someone has already mentioned it in the comments I didn't look 🤦♂️but yeh a start up with no sales or even orders etc . It's obvious. I can't believe the dragons didn't pick up on it.. maybe they did.
Definitely a marketing stunt but also highlights how much the 2 of them need their product to protect their last brain cell
Yeah and they didn't even seem to want to make a counter offer like they were scared he would accept it 😂
These guys are definitely just here for advertising with that valuation.
no..
i think that like a lot of inventors - they are just extraordinarily naive..
Just for laughs, I googled them. They are 700,000 in debt, sales of nothing, 6/10 reviews, typical arrogant inventors who couldn't find a winning product if they tried.
How many times do you have a cycle accident and hit/damage your helmet? Other areas of usage that might be more marketable would be construction, horse-riding, cricket.....etc
Yes. If have an accident & involved head /helmet & believe the helmet has been compromised? Just go out & buy another helmet folks.
US president Joe Biden had a cycle accident recently.
@@b-dogs1038 and you could buy 3 for the price of this one helmet. And if i have 3 cycling accidents I'd probably just stop cycling and for that reason I'm out
Theoretically motorcycle helmets are supposed to be replaced after any hit....how many walls in buildings when carrying my helmet have I hit? No clue.
The foam compression is what saves your head. If the foam is compressed from drops or bumps then its not safe anymore because you've removed the ability to absorb energy. Ever notice how helmets for different things are made differently? That's for a reason. A hammer falling on your head is different from your head moving fast an then suddenly stopping.
Tej made a very good offer.
I think they were silly to come in asking for 4% with such a high valuation no patent on the chemical and barely any sales. I wouldn’t spend £150 on a helmet either. Max £45
I guess you have a £45 head. My head is definitely worth £150. Shame you don’t think yours is. 😜👍🏼
@@Estiallina You could buy 2 or 3 good quality helmets for £45. There's not many that sell for such a high price.
@@funkfireman
100% bullshit
@@Estiallina damn so if i make a £1000 helmet you're gonna buy it because you're that obtuse?
@@Estiallina ur getting cooked
What did one helmet say to the other?
I'll stay here, you go on ahead!😁!
or...you are head case!
🇬🇧 Please stop
A good product IMO. Good for the building industry.
Needs tweaking not rejecting.
No. The valuation means it requires rejecting lol. What you on
A valuation of £2.5 million for that product at the figures they mentioned is a joke, that's the only reason they left with nothing.
If Touker had been there he'd have spent 5 minutes talking about his bike website and then at the last minute offered all the money for 90% and acted offended when it was turned down.
1:04 I love the cut to peter here, not caring while the rest make noises.
They didn't come for investment, they came for exposure. Sad the Dragons didn't call them out.
You people say this about everyone with a high valuation🤣 ever thought maybe that’s just how much they wanted to give away?
@@coolbeanz1702 Yeah i agree...sometimes the dragons ask for tooo much .
Exactly.
Shame it doesn't seem to have worked....losing money year-on-year...
Do Touker and Theo regenerate into one another every so often Dr. Who style?
😂😂
I always believe in the value of the dragons.
Get them interested, and 60% of something is better than 95% of nothing
I can't handle everyone saying "your helmet" "all your helmet does" "Your helmet will do things that no others will"
I must say, I never ever get tired of Dragons Den, listen to the Investors and how they actually take great risks and could lose lots of money. However, it isn't easy when so few really bring to the table a really extraordinary invention of sorts. Of course, it also can be loosing a possible great success. No matter what, it is always a great risk on both sides.
Theo's doing some serious thinking in the hope he can ask "...and what if its near a candle?"
😂😂😂😂😂
You are so on point.
Theo would definitely say that 😅
I didn't know Matt Le Tissier sold bike helmets
After losing that Sky contract, beggars can't be choosers eh
No no that’s not Matt Le Tissier.
He graduated onto selling tin foil hats too
12:59 so great to see peetah's curiosity of how they will react to the offer!
Peter has gone from looking like a sharp James Bond to the old Q over the series. I guess been a billionaire takes its toll.
He does have more hair now than the early episodes, and that's priceless
No usp. It's not like people are constantly falling off their bikes or getting hit by a rain of hammers every day on construction sites.
Current net worth: £ -600.000
Current net worth £-900,000
@@bobstirling6885 :)
The existence of Theo in this show is like having a defective 2.5 W bulb in your backyard.
They were so relieved that they didn't get a deal at the end 😂 They didn't want a deal, just exposure.
Well although they are still trading, their accounts show annual losses running at around half a million per year for the past 3 years....so maybe they did need a deal
@@bobstirling6885I hope they stay afloat because my skull is shaped like a Neanderthal's and this helmet is the only one that fits my head. Being soft and pliable it's extremely comfortable.
People say that but I don't see it, it's not like the world watches dragons den and I like it but I'm not gonna buy one. Exposure doesn't mean anything will happen.
11:29 Debbie let her colostomy bag settle before declaring herself out. Good on her.
I hate this comment so much. Take my like and leave.
The only type of person to invest £100k for 4% on that business, is the type to walk around wearing a helmet like that and then jump on a special bus, licking the windows all the way home.
😂😂😂
Why bring your mum into this?
@@UncleBenjs ....suppose because yours couldn't see the opportunity....😑
The puns are pure gold
They were weak at addressing concerns. They almost seemed to agree with them if someone said a negative point. I reckon Deborah was going to offer at like 40-50% so it wasn't worth saying even.
Theo is always realistic and reasonable
@Lee Claxton Lol
His thinking was similar to mine with a background in Materials Science. I would have it rigorously tested scientifically and to safety standards before I would even think of investing at any amount, let alone at 2.5 million...
I love watching the Greedy negotiate with each other a great program it's like watching Gold Prospecting. 😂
Which one is called Greedy?
@@BenjaminGoose They all are
Another UA-cam commenter who doesn't understand the concept of risk:reward. Sad.
I'm getting "Free advertising" vibes from this...
The role of a helmet is too absorb energy when an impact occurs. It dissipates the energy by breaking & deforming and compressing the foam/polystyrene. If it is too robust it will just transmit the energy to the skull and the skull & neck will absorb & dissipate the shock...
this was ridiculous I thought 25 percent was an amazing deal for a company with absolutely zero
150 for a helmet just that's an absolute joke
These guys came in for advertising. Surprised the Dragons didn't call them out on that.
Let's hope Theo's children didn't inherit his receding hairline.
That was a great offer they must not need money or already have too many hands in the cookie jar.
This is nonsense. The safety of a helmet is not about how much damage is done to the helmet, but how much damage is done to the head. If you want a robust helmet, just strap a rock to your head. Just like the crumple zone of a car, you want the helmet to be crushed under an impact, absorbing the energy of the impact, instead of your head.
Exactly it’s the force transferred ! If there is no give force goes through and you brain goes shaken baby damage.
Yeah and every time you do small invisible damage you reduce that "crumple zone". Bike helmet use the compression of the foam to absorb the impact. Every time the foam is crush and condensed you remove that compression factor. Get it? If not I can explain more.
Without a doubt this is an excellent platform to launch awareness internationally...One has to remember Dragon's Den US, Canada, Australia are all spin-offs of this the original and it is shown throughout the civilized world and the United States.
Stop using the phrase "the civilized world" its very disrespectful.
@@makatelli You ole' silly-billy.
@@erepsekahs No, i'm being serious. That phrase stems from colonial times where they thought everyone except white europeans we're savages.
@@makatelli Ah....ok you're beginning to get the message. Keep thinking, you'll figure it out.
@@makatelli Go cry elsewhere, fragile millenial woke. I'm sure you let your wife have a boyfriend.
Innovating since 2013
Over £2 Million on Research and Development. Over a decade dedicated to improving head safety.
Hedkayse produces long lasting protective equipment for the sports we love. Future proofed design is at the core of what we do. We will continue to expand our range of the safest and toughest sports protection on the market. Due to the value that Enkayse™ provides the sports industry we will start to see other brands licence the technology in their own products to help set a new standard for sports protection. ( 2023 they are bigger than ever )
Jenny : I don't need something on my head for protection, there's nothing there, I'm out
They didn't ask what the cost price is ?
Narrator: "Theo Paphitis"
Me: "Theo the Foetus"
I always wonder why some people make very exaggerated valuation for startup product, no investor would just go for such thing
Gets their product on TV.
@@masterblast4069
That makes sense
@@masterblast4069
Way to go captain obvious
Delusional- they're too close to the product and so they don't see the problems that they have.
Free advertising and nothing more
They wrote the season and episode numbers in the description!!
I don’t get out of bed if it isn’t fitted with a flow signal for that reason Jenny is out
I agree... and so does Rory.
Brian's figures which are separate.
It’s one of those without IP on the material that bell or other big co will just do it themself if they see a market.
I get really annoyed when they turn up with such high valuations and a low percentage fir the equity.
They gave away the flaw right at the start by saying a chemist could work out what it's made from. All someone like Deborah needs to do is find this out and manufacture their own version.
All other helmets must be replaced after one impact. I see the value in this being able to withstand many impacts and be foldable.
Exactly. I was thinking sports like stakeboarding, BMXing, mountain/trail biking, where you expect to fall over regularly would be ideal.
Yes but they didn't have any certification to prove that it's good for multiple impacts. Part of the trouble might be that there's no certification available to say that a cycle helmet is safer than standard.
If the helmet gives, then it doesn't necessarily absorb shock, a rigid structure prevents concussive impact where a flexible structure doesn't.
Can someone tell me what valuation of a business has to do with making an offer ?
The valuation is calculated based on the amount of percentage they are offering for the investment amount.
So in this example they were offering 4% share for £100,000. So this values the company at £2.5 million.
If for example a dragon had asked for a higher percentage for their £100,000 investment then this would of lowered the valuation. For example if they got a 10% share the company would be valued at £1 million.
Has to be a realistic valuation, based on the current situation/state of the business
Valuation is simple an estimate of the current worth of the company. In other words if you were to sell it all right there you could easily get that amount from an offer. By buying in to a company that is worth 1 million through sells and assets will be diffrent than a start up company only worth 10,000. The problem is this is early stages of the product meaning more risks because they haven't proven their value. ... I hope this helps.
There valuation was way over the top plus they don't own the rights to the material but I bet the got an offer from a bike company
Someone does not get out of bed for 4%!
No one did.
£150 bike Helmet! . I’d want a built in
Head massager and radio for that price!
We won’t see them again. Should have took the offer.
A modest racing helmet in the US costs $150.
Exactly
The title is pretty awkward.
Understatement.
Wanting to give away only 4% is like they are insulting the Dragons.
Where's Touker Sulimon.
In bed since they were asking for below 5%.
Don't they see the potential from the safety where governments could legislate less safe competitors out?
Why did he say "first to face Theo and the other 4 dragons" at the start
3x expensive but if there claims are true it last 3x+ longer
If the valuation is excessive then fair play but I think sometimes the Dragons complain about valuations to strengthen their hands in negotiation!
They have no chance in construction because employers don't need to buy it.
Jenny will be riding her bike out.
"this has never been invented like this before" What? XD
Peter Jones values no company but his own.
That’s ridiculous. He’s made more investments than any other dragon, is the only billionaire of the group and easily the savviest of them all. He’s helped lots of people become millionaires. Besides, which businessman wouldn’t value their own company? Would you?
"it's safer, only if an accident happens" - um, what?
Yep, so it wasn't just me that thought that.
Actually it's only safer if struck multiple times. A better question is what is the usable life of their helmet compared to standard bike helmets, which we are told should be replaced every five years because the materials used chemically start to break down and don't provide enough impact resistance five years after manufacture.
Why would you need one because probably there wont be any accident right?
@@Testinator1234 Do you realize fillowing that logic, normal helmets offer no protection if there is no accident....
It's a ridiculous thing to say. The reason for ANY helmet is because an accident *might* happen, not because it definitely will. It's the same reason for an insurance policy.
Sorry Jimmy, the particular injury you took wasn't anticipated by the maker's of the standard helmet, you'll have to get the rest of your nourishment from a feeding tube. But we did save a few bucks on the helmet!!
Ridiculous
Will everybody pay the extra money? No, of course not. But why not get the ones that will? I'll bet a lot more will than you think,
At the end of the day, it's just a helmet. Why didn't the dragons ask about the cost of producing the product and how to reduce the cost of production.
Secondly, to reach the kind of sales numbers they anticipated, the retail price can't be above 50 pound.
I will invest all the money for 20% of the business. Otherwise no deal..
"Why didn't the dragons ask about the cost of producing the product and how to reduce the cost of production." How do you know they didn't?
You would have lost your investment.
Your £100k would now be worth £-200k
@@bobstirling6885 ha ha ha.. nice one.
Sara though. She's a G
I dont know if there is a real market for this. How many seriouse crashes do bike riders have? You can buy a decent one for $60 and probably last ages.
Got a little tense at the end, thought Tej was going to accept the offer. Theo the fetus and pizza Jones think they are well funny
So happy they didn’t get a deal.
£150 for a helmet is not bad To bad given todays prices, when you think about it though guys who would spend £150 on a helmet are generally more than your average cyclist. And thus buy for example carbon fibre etc like me I have carbon full face helmets they were over £300 each ….
Impressive 👏
What was the point in coming on? They wanted to hear Deborah's offer but then couldn't stretch to 25%
I think most people who pitch have no idea how to value their company, most of which are an idea, a product, and a few tiny sales. Take this business for example, a good product, no sales, and a fairy tale story about it being a huge seller without any proof. 100k valuation tops sounds more like it.
Surely they shouldnt have been smashing thr helmets onto their flooring like that lol
If the accident is so severe that a normal helmet isn't good enough, then it would be pointless. What use is a helmet if you have your neck or back broke?
And if you keep having these severe accidents, maybe you should try a different hobby
rickysmyth - your last sentence is hilarious 😂😂😂
In theory, a traditional helmet should be thrown away if it's dropped, so it's not just "accidents" that take a helmet out. Also, cyclists have little control over the actions of other road users so sometimes you don't get a say in whether you're in an accident.
Do the people that go on never watch Dragons den? They must know a low percentage offer never goes well.
Dont come in with a valuation of more than a million unless you've already cracked a market, like the US.
This show isn't in the US.. The US isn't the only market in the world lmao.
Well at least they got an offer from tej lavani
I could see him pulling his hits with the hammer... 🙄
If he was out for valuation the have him make you an offer
They had a decent product but what killed their pitch was their extremely high valuation. I mean asking for £100k for only 4% of their company is shocking
Thanks sherlock
@@coolbeanz1702 Next time u comment have a point to it otherwise it's pointless. Just abit of advice
Clown's 🤡 just wanted the TV time
I think if they would have gone to 15%, Tej would have accepted.
I love Sarah 😂
So many lose investment because of crazy valuations.
How many accidents are you expecting to have ?
Why do you need a helmet that can take 201 hits. How often are people falling in their heads? 🤔
I fell of the bike so many times and never hit my head, it would always leave a mark on my elbows and knees. Cheers
Net worth in 2023: 1.3 million pounds
How many accidents does the average cyclist plan to have over the course of their cycling career? lol. I rode for many years and didn't fall off once, not a scratch on my helmet. I think they're pie in the sky idea won't go anywhere.
plastic ones are [erfect for impact and disperse the impact and breaks up. its why it is what it is,,
Deborah always lets her fingers do the talking or in this case walking .
They were far more smarter than their dumb acting....they could have talked about "K" mark, little bit about EU safety standard steps, little more in detail about patent, played around with chemicals, should have shared the materials use in fire dept, construction, cycling, police, armed forces, compared with bike helmets etc. Talked about product life cycle etc....they were just least bothered about the investment...im glad they are still up and running and licensing Enkayse™ tech...
100k for 4%, what a joke
I've never seen this dragon line up. I always thought Duncan dropped out after Theo.
Theo covers if one of the others is unable to attend.
Almost 3x's more expensive (oorrrr just over 2x's)
holland has more cyclists by percentage of population , no helmet laws, very few wear a helmet cycling unless in a race situation