Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism
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- Опубліковано 2 кві 2015
- Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason discusses his views on covenant theology and dispensationalism.
#StandtoReason #Apologetics #Christianity
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For more on Greg’s view of dispensationalism, see rsn.pub/48Neh9X.
Amen brother!!! As a deacon in a Reformed Baptist Church I find myself one of the few who embraces God’s prophetic promises to Israel will be fulfilled 😊❤️
I think I would agree with John MacArthur who calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist." Dispensationalism gets some things right, but has a number of issues. In some dispensational camps they would say that we should only read certain books in the Bible which were for gentiles while the Jews should read the other books. Some would even say that the sermon on the mount was for Jews and not gentiles, and some would even suggest that there is a separate gospel for Jews and gentiles. I do not agree with any of these ideas. However, I think it is hard to deny that God still has a plan for the literal nation of ethnic Israel. I believe that covenant theology gets it right in regard to the fact that the same gospel that saves gentiles also saves the Jews. There is no separate gospel. However, covenant theology seems to fall flat because it seems to completely miss the most obvious point which is that Israel is literally a nation again. A lot of covenant theology folks seem to think there is no significance to the fact that Israel is literally a nation again. But I think it is undeniably significant. If God was truly done with the nation of Israel and had no future plans for them since they crucified Jesus, then why didn't God simply let them become extinct like the Moabites, the Hittites, the Amorites, etc. There have been so many attempts down through the ages by different nations to annihilate the Jews. But no one can seem to stamp them out. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. God isn't done with them.
simply coz they are the choosen people
I believe, from Scripture, that He has destroyed the collective nation of Israel forever, but He wasn't done with them yet, leaving THE DOOR open for individual Jews to come out of unbelief and into faith in Messiah.
Jesus prophesied the complete destruction of the Temple, City and people in 70 AD (as was written in Daniel 9). If He hadn't stopped them, the Roman soldiers would have killed every Jew.
The new Israel is a U.N. appointed state which has multi-religions, is multi-racial and multi-ethnic. The Temple was replaced with the Dome of the Rock, no shock since Paul told us Jerusalem went into bondage with Hagar's children, the Arabs, after Jesus died, no longer having the exclusive birthright to the land.
Deuteronomy 28:63-65 KJV
*And it shall come to pass,* _that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you;_ *so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you,* _and to bring you to nought;_ *and ye shall be plucked from off the land* whither thou goest to possess it.
[64] *And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other;* _and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known,_ even wood and stone.
[65] *And among these nations shalt thou find no ease,* _neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest:_ *but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:*
Galatians 4:24-25.
… *for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.*
[25] Galatians 4:25
For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia,... *Jerusalem … is in bondage with her children.*
Revelation 11:8 KJV
… *the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,*
where also our Lord was crucified.
Dan 9:27 …and for the …abominations *he shall make it desolate,* _even until the consummation,_ *and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.*
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV
*_O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,_* thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,...
[38] *Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.*
Romans 11:23 KJV
… *if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:* _for God is able to graff them in again._
@@jigztv2670 I'm more on the Covenant Theology side. Only those found in Christ are the chosen people of God. Be it this includes Abraham, as Jesus speaks of people looking forward to his day. The author of Hebrews speaking of the people who died in faith, having not had the promises fulfilled during their lives, of primary the coming of the Messiah.
Take it this way. This idea that there needs to be a National Israel. The understand is the Kingdom of Christ is a true nation of God. Jesus is King today, his Kingdom has come, he is not waiting to rule, he is the Lord and King of his people today.
I'll say it just one more way and leave it at this: There are not two chosen nations, two chosen people: National Israel and the Kingdom of Jesus. There is only one nation of God, King Jesus is ruler and his people are citizen of his nation by adaption, living today as sojourners and ambassadors of his Kingdom now.
The only nation to come, to pray for, commanded by Jesus is His Kingdom. Thats why Christian say, "Your Kingdom come..." We don't pray the Nation of Israel come or return. We seek King Jesus return.
Israel and the land go together because that was the Covenant God made to Abraham. It's an Eternal Promise.
The Church was a mystery in the Old Testament. She didn't come into focus until Pentecost.
There are three distinct groups today (2023 A.D.). The Jews, the Gentiles and the Church.
The Father will inform the Son to go and collect His Bride (Rapture). She will return with Jesus when He reigns on the throne of David for one thousand years. This is the Millennial Kingdom of no war and the lion will lie down with the lamb. Satan will be bound and unable to seduce or tempt.
@@forgiven2812
"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring."
-Saint Paul
True Israel are the true off spring of Abraham. A people.
Therefore there remains only one People of God, the true off spring of Abraham, those found in Christ by adoption as sons and daughters of the living God.
Just as there is only the True Sabbath Rest found in God. Not the shadow, which wasn't true rest. Nor the total of all the people who followed Moses out of Egypt, for many where cut off and accursed, not true descendants of Abraham, not Israel rightly understood. For they will never enter His Rest.
Very helpful. Thank you! I have been studying this a lot lately and listening to everyone I can. Still trying to decide what I believe. Both of you point seem reasonable to me. Praying for discernment.
What does “all Israel” mean? Romans 9 says, It is not as though God’s word [the Gospel] had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Therefore, can “all Israel” be all of the elect Jews throughout the church age and a larger number of Jews before the second advent of Christ? Of course.
Check out 'Larry T Smith Lesson 1'. Be blessed.
Outstanding presentation. Very Biblical and very clear. Thank you so much.
Excellent,sound expository of biblical theology. Totally in agreement with you. God bless.
I contend that those who hold to a future status for a nation state of Israel have failed to understand who Jesus is. When viewed through the New Testament lens of the prophet like Moses (Acts 3:22, 7:37) and the fulfilment of the Isaianic New Exodus, we see that the New Testament writers saw Jesus as the one through whom all of the prophetic expectations were being realized. Despite the attempts of many to identify a place for a third temple in the pages of the NT, there is simply no such space available, because the entirety of the role and purpose of the temple has been fully realized and superseded in Jesus, expressed by his church, and empowered by the the glory (shekinah) of the Holy Spirit. That's what Pentecost was all about. It's true that Paul holds out a place for the Jewish people in Romans, but he does not portend the re-establishment of the nation state. The OT expectation is for the re-establishment of the throne of David. That is the moment of prophetic realization. Luke is abundantly clear that the Davidic throne has been fully occupied now by the resurrected Jesus.
Amen, Jesus fulfills the role as Priest, Prophet, and King. There is no else one can look to. No one can reestablish the old temple and offer sacrifice of bulls and goats for the forgiveness of sin. We as Christian could never support or encourage Jews to do this, to reestablish the former nation state of Israel as it was.
Jesus is King sitting on the thrown of David. The Kingdom of Christ is the true nation of God, in which all of God's people are found, including Jews (as Jesus says of Abraham seeing His day and looking forward to it). As Jesus also says of David calling his future son (by flesh) his Lord.
Those throughout all time have been saved by faith in God's provision, His Messiah, we today looking back at what Christ has done, others like Abraham looking forward in faith to what He will do.
Shekinah is a feminine word, not found in the Bible.
I think there is plenty of room for both/and, with Jesus at the helm.
I 100% agree.
I don't think there is. "Christian" zionists, I have noticed, have absolutely no care or concern for the plight of any Palestinians INCLUDING Palestinian Christians. I see "Christian" zionists even wishing Netenyahu would exterminate all Palestinians including children
Finally someone who agrees with my view!!!
Thank you, Sir!!!
Finally! I'm so glad you explained what monergism and synergism are in one sentence! It made it much easier to understand.
and to see how repugnant monergism is.
@@Templetonq Amen!
I am not a dispensationalist, but I actually agree with the biggest part of your explanation here. Great job on seeking to be honest with the text.
Praise God for your input via video Greg. I have come to exactly the very same conclusion by a extensive reading of the Old Testament prophets. Yet, so many who call themselves Christians argue IFO replacement theology and that what we now believe is considered a radical extreme fringe view which by their estimation is considered ridiculous. Yet, the Old Testament prophets is full of this wonderful prophecies with regards to the end time national reconciliation of Israel when Messiah returns to earth as foretold. God bless you for this input.
After twenty four years of Pastoral ministry I think this is the best short explanation of the differences between Covenant Theology & Dispensationalism that I've ever heard. I recently preached a short series called ' The Rise and Fall of World Powers ' from Daniel 2:9-21 & Daniel 4:16-17. My overall goal was to show our church that God is Not only sovereign in the salvation of the lost but that his sovereignty extends to Nations rising and falling. In Daniel 4:16-17, Daniel hammers home the truth that God will even raise up wicked leaders for His divine purpose. If you follow the doctrine of divine sovereignty to it's Biblical & logical conclusion there is absolutely no legitimate way to downplay the rebirth of National Israel in 1948. One cannot embrace a given doctrine in a Theological vaccum. God Is sovereign over the Nations, especially National Israel.
Wow!! Beautiful and blessed!!!
Thank you for this explanation. Well stated.
Thank you clear thinking. I was introduced to CR Stams writings in my early 20s. Dispensational thought. No one man’s writings are completely correct, but both yours and his explanation seem to seek the simple logic of God’s narrative of Grace being offered through Israel’s prophesied messiah, after Israel’s rejection Jesus, Israel breaking their covenant with God, God revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ through Paul; providing Grace and salvation to all, not only Israel. Simply ingenious on God’s part. Israel’s failure translated into an offer of Grace to all of us.
Makes me love God even more.
The crucial question is, how did the NT author's, under the inspiration of the Holy Srpiti interpret those national promises? For instance in Acts 2 Peter refers to the resurrection/ascension of Christ to the right hand of God as fulfilling God's prophecy in 2 Sam that the Messiah would sit on David's throne. He's on it now in heaven. It wasnt about an earthly throne in Jerusalem.
That's just it, Davids thrown of which was promised to David, was not in heaven in order for Jesus to fulfill that Davidic covenant .... the kingdom must be literal, He is not ruling the nations with a Rod of Iron now, is He ? is this Gods will being done on earth as it is in heaven
@@jayfoulke2903 yes, this is why this last dispensation doesn't apply to Israel, but to the house of Judah, this is what most of these dispensationalist got it wrong. God is done with Israel on the cross, and now they can be saved same as gentiles.
@@jayfoulke2903 "is God's will being done"
It can be done by those who believe. Something everyone seems to miss.
The kingdom has come it's leavening the loaf and it is the mustard seed. He said he has all authority.
I'm not sure why that's the "crucial question". That seems to have very little practical effect on the Christian life.
Brethren as it is often said; on essential issues we can not differ, on nonessential issues (such as this one) we can differ but let everything be done in purity.
You can never go to hell bcoz you embraced covenant theology instead of dispensationalism and visa versa.
Avez vous sonder tout les recoins de cette théologie, j'en doute car vous verriez combien elle est démoniaque. Au contraire, il ne faut pas la banaliser mais la dénoncer avec vigueur . Elle prêche un évangile différent de celui de la bible et ceux qui font ça ont une malédiction sur la tête
Gal 1:6-9
This was EXCELLENT!!! Great video. Very clear and concise for the everyday believer.
Thank you. Ive been searching trying to understanding wht all this means and to gave me some clarity.
Thanks for watching. We're glad we could help.
Absolutely, God will fulfil His promises to Israel, otherwise He is a liar. About 80% of all prophetic predictions have so far been fulfilled, literally; so it is logical and scriptural that the remains 20% will also be fulfilled. It’s extraordinary that so many believers today try to explain away future/ yet-to-be fulfilled prophecies, by allegorising or ‘spiritualising’ them away. God fulfilling His promises is the most compelling evidence of who He is, and the veracity of His Word; He says this many times.
I always wonder why so few mention Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who was my final major influence in coming to the Truth of what the Bible teaches ... Chafer's little book 'Grace' is stunning and can be found online as it is Public Domain now.
Is it correct to say that dispensational vs covanental theology is essentially all about how we view Israel, as the 1 defining issue of those positions? Or is it more complicated than that?
Thanks for the question! We invite you to call in to our weekly broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg Koukl. He'd love to hear from you. Or you can submit an #STRask or Open Mic question. Visit www.str.org/broadcast for details.
This was helpful. So glad you are able to make pauses in your speech and not add "right?". Pleasant.
I had to click on this and watch it, because of the title. I took a year at Pacific Christian College (now Hope University), and one of the classes was on Covenant Theology. Which is probably kind of strange because independent Christian Churches are not in any way "reformed" in their theology, at least that's been my experience. (Also, I don't remember a bit of that class; it was 40 years ago! But I do remember the teacher, Dr. Mont Smith.) It's one of those "in house" debates though, in the long run, and it's nice to see that even learned men struggle over it.
What I find beautiful is how the proselytes of the OT and original baptisms that took place to make a gentile converted and its integral component to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This is precisely what I believe the Bible teaches. This is truly and beautifully said. Koukl sounds like Spurgeon and Ryle; love it!
Well, Spurgeon and Ryle were big time Covenantalists.
@@thespurge please do your research on them and their views on Israel.
@@thespurge It's my understanding that Spurgeon was premillennial though. Not sure how that fits in with Covenantal Theology. However, I'm still trying to sort out some of my own views, but do heavily lean Postmillennial.
I am a dispensationalist. I'm glad to hear that some in the Covenant Theology camp do see that the church has not taken the place of Israel. Ezekiel chapters 40- 48. Have a great day, a brother in Christ.
I cannot understand the folly of replacement ideology.. what in this galaxy leads people to conclude that God deals with his creatures in a differentiated way?
This is really well done. Thanks for making it.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
5:49
Thanks for this insight.
It happened at Pentecost; where the nations were given the blessing of the Good News.
The Jews of all nations gathered again at Pentecost and Peter gave them hell for murdering the Christ. Peter sites what Joel said. It was the end, the last days, the day of the Lord was at hand and judgement to be poured out before Christ returns to blot out their sins and they need to repent and make themselves clean per the Law of Moses. Good news? You drank the KoolAid. Read the book of Act and ask yourself as you go, what did I just read and what does it mean? Look for the reason that Christ was raised from the dead. The reason for the Jews who gathered from all nations back to Israel is not the same reason as He did for us. It is different by God's design.
Hello! I’m wondering if choosing a camp (covenant or dispensational theology) is a matter of salvation? Or is this more of a secondary issue amongst the body of Christ?
Great question! This is not a salvation issue! In Christian theology there are essential doctrines that all Christians must believe and there are non essential doctrines such as this one. I have brothers and sisters in Christ on both sides of this issue but we all agree in the essential doctrines. Hope this helps. Have a great day!
@@michaelmorris6575 don’t some of these directly affect or interpret the core doctrines differently??
@@PureBloodWNC Good question! I am not at all suggesting that these secondary issues are not important. The original question just asked if they were a salvation issue. I can’t think of any theologians that I follow that agree perfectly on all non essential issues. Yet they all agree on essentials especially when it comes to who Jesus is and the doctrines of salvation by faith and grace alone. The thief on the cross who was saved certainly did not understand the differences between covenant theology and dispensationalism. His eschatological views were probably not completely thought out. Yet he was saved by the grace of God because of what Jesus had done for him. But I think you are correct in that a lot of people hold to non essential views that do contradict essentials that they claim. Have a great day!
@@michaelmorris6575 thank you for the thoughtful response. Shalom
@@michaelmorris6575 would you consider the doctrine of the Trinity to be essential?
Awesome 👌 👏
I'm not sure that this contrast is necessary. I'm covenantal (small c) because I hold to the Covenant of Grace while also believing that God will do something with Isreal in the end while holding to post-tribulation pre-millennialism (historic premill). That is why I don't call myself Covenantal or Dispensational, but I fall in the wildly diverse realm of New Covenant.
He did a good job of explaining the distinction between them being a future for national Israel. The most important question is: Is the church the new Israel? If one says no to this then the only option is Premillennial Dispensationalism.
If you've come here from looking up about the history of Israel, just wanted to add to what Greg mentioned. There seems to be a confusion about the current State of Israel and it's territorial tussle vs. the covenanted descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The current nation as we know it is pretty much pagan in its ways, and being an Israeli (citizen of Israel) does not make one an Israelite (of the 12 tribes). I agree with Greg, that the prophecies of the OT prophets is for the future restoration of Israel in the MK when Christ, the Lion of Judah returns to rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem and the national identity of Israel consisting of the 12 tribes and the Promised Land shall be restored and finally peace on earth.
There is an intermediate position between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism that affirms the role of National Israel. The modern movement of Messianic Judaism, which began in the late 60's--although there have always been Jewish believers in every age--largely, at first, accepted Dispensationalism, because it affirmed the future promises for national Israel as opposed to Covenant Theology. But Messianic Jews soon found the problematic aspects of Dispensationalism, namely, the complete separation of the Church and Israel. Messianic Jews see themselves as part of both groups. Therefore they began to formulate a theology which David Stern calls Olive Tree Theology, based upon the Olive Tree metaphor of Romans 11. Where the "church" is the believing remnant of Israel with Gentile believers grafted in.
Progressive Dispensationalism probably comes closest to articulating that position. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew and Dispensationalist has a book "Israelology, the Missing Link in Systematic Theology that explains in detail the all the major theological positions on Israel.
I also recommend "The Church and The Jews" by Dan Gruber.
Israel is a modern invention. So, it is not a symbol of literal truth.
Simply you are right
Great video. Thanks. I hold similar views on Israel, though I'm Amillenialist.
Both these theologies have their problems. Very good to recognize God’s faithfulness and continued plans for national Israel even when she is unfaithful. Highly recommending looking into “Promised Plan” theology (Walter Kaiser). Gentiles neither replace Israel, neither are separate from Israel, but are grafted into the remnant of Israel (those who are saved from Israel by faith in the Promised One). We become part of God’s people by faith in the finished work of the Messiah . One flock with one Shepherd.
Thats pretty much how i see it. I call myself a dispensationalist. For me it was a ureka moment. It cleared up so many troubling verses. And some real contradictions. And commands that are impossible without an existing temple.
Contradictions only exist if we ignore the context.
@@k9builder exactly what im saying. To whom is it written, and when. The simplest example is the the charge not to eat from the tree of life......aint for us
Now that just makes sense
I’m not sure what your issue with this speaker is. He was just explaining different schools of thought. It’s not something that is divisive, just two ways of looking at things.
500 years debating this. It just shows how theology puffs up. He just told you he is a Calvinist
Thanks for the video and explanation of your views. One quick criticism is that you seem to use the Jewish people and Israel as interchangeable terms as far back as Abraham, in the present , and in the future. This seems like a common mistake most Dispensationalists make.
I thought there were two covenants, the old and the new. How did dispensationalism come about?
That's a good question. Please consider calling in to the weekly broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg. www.str.org/broadcast
I believe that God has never forsaken Israel. He just chasten them because they sinned against God. However when we read the books of the prophets we can see clearly that God will gather them back from all corners of the world back to their promised land.
Correct. Israel finished their 2,520 years of servitude to God on May 14, 1948. Ezekiel 37 has now been fulfilled and they are a nation again. That day also kicked off the final generation that Jesus speaks about in the Olivet discourse. In the last days of the great tribulation nearly two-thirds of the Jewish people will be killed by the Anti-Christ, but one-third will recognize and have their eyes open and Christ will come to their rescue after they cry out to Him. There will be three types of people alive on the earth during the Millennium, 1) the church in their glorified bodies, 2) the mortals who did not take the mark of the beast and survived, and 3) the mortal Jewish people who turned to Christ and were sheltered from the Anti-Christ during the tribulation.
@@seanc2788 Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?
(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)
Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?
Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?
Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10
Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?
John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?
Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.
Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?
How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…
The New Heavens and New Earth are found at the beginning of the passage, and the end of the curse is found at the end of the passage.
What happens if verse 20 begins with a negative statement? "There will be no more..."
Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?
Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?
What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?
Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?
Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?
What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?
Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?
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Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?
Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.
Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Israel is the Church, and it was the a Jews who forsook God.
Very satisfying thoughts! thank you Greg.
I agree.
I find it interesting that when the Jewish apostles wrote their letters to the churches which were ethnically diverse referred to the believers there and included themselves among them as one people, as the church, saints, holy nation, His body, tree with. Jesus said that he was going to bring the flock of Israel and the gentile flock together as one flock. I don't see why people keep making distinctions but maybe I am missing something and am willing to search these things out. But there are Jewish believers today and throughout history who are of the church universal, not an entity of it own. Will God save a remnant in Israel at the last Day? That is what Scripture teaches, but that is in no way separating them from the body of believers who all belong to one flock, one body, one family of God. The saving of this Jewish or Israelite remnant is what brings about the realized salvation for all believers who are awaiting His glorious return and God again showing His strong arm to save His people when they call on Him.
It would have been great if the speaker actually quoted Scriptures when he says they speak of a future role on national Israel.
This is why I am only a "Christian". I am not a Weslayan, or a Calvinist, or an Arminian or dispensationalist, etc. I read the Bible, I believe the Bible, I largely understand the Bible. I agree with Calvin on some things but not all things, I agree with dispensationalists on some things but not all things--it seems foolish to me to take on these various titles and ideologies. Just be a "Christian" and forget about all these other labels.
Problem with that is there are many people that call themselves Bible believing christians that believe different things and interpret the same scripture differently. Thats why those labels define what you believe.
@@TheJpep2424
But now you are backed into a corner where a given ideology could have 10 beliefs, and you agree with 5 of them, but now you feel compelled to agree with the other 5 so that you line up with the ideology completely even though you only actually agree with half of what it states. It is not difficult at all to just ask someone a specific question: "Hey, do you think all Jews go to heaven?", or "Hey, do you think salvation is different during the tribulation?", or whatever.
Not to mention a lot of these competing theologies have so many adherents because both positions have some degree of merit. A person can identify as a Calvinist because of the notion of election and predestination that comes up throughout scripture, but then you have all of the free-will verses in scripture that you now have to ignore, and you even have 2 Peter 1:10 which indicates that you play a role in being deemed one of the elect ("wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"). From my experience most of these labels end up causing more problems than they solve.
Specific questions followed with specific answers will tell you much more than a label will. Ask someone what they think about free will and pre-determination rather than asking if they are a Calvinist or an Arminian.
I am very similar to you. Any doctrine named after a man is not really embraced by me. I take the scripture and what it clearly says and avoid interpretations that contradict the plain teaching of scripture. While that is basic to understanding the Bible it is so often not followed by believers. God will sort us all out when we will see more clearly in his full Kingdom.
Amen!
@@douglaspinsak1246 this is a novel position but really "no creed but Christ" is just "no creed but mine".
Great video, thank you. I do have an honest question, if people of Judaism faith don't believe in Jesus Christ as their savior (quite a few reject him as the Messiah) then regardless of lineage they will not be saved?
Thanks for the question! We invite you to call in to our weekly broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg Koukl. He'd love to hear from you. Or you can submit an #STRask or Open Mic question. Visit www.str.org/broadcast for details.
In the meantime, the short answer is that, yes, Jews who reject Jesus will not be saved. It was never Jewish lineage that saved those in the Old Testament, but faith. You may also find the following helpful: www.str.org/w/what-must-ben-shapiro-do-to-be-saved-.
I believe in a future restoration of Israel but that is a minor part of the discussion between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Making the discussion about Israel misses the important parts of the discussion.
This was explained well
I consider myself in the dispensational understanding regarding scriptures. The problem is, I’m surrounded by covenant theology teachers. I feel so alone in my walk where I live 😢.
Don't cave! You're on good ground with solid teaching such as you have here! This video is a great simplification of dispensationalism. This is a great explanation of a significant difference between the two views.
Perhaps you might explore the Kingdom of God as an alternative( enacted inaugurated ) : if, as is likely (?) you are a cessationist this approach will clear the fog...it did for me
Thank you ! I have been studying and listening to both theories and found myself leaning towards God is not done with the nation Israel . My question is , as Christians with this belief , should we be in support of Israel ? I pray daily for the hostages and soldiers but that being said , of course i do not agree with everything Israel does .
Thanks for the question! We invite you to call in to our weekly broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg Koukl. He'd love to hear from you. Or you can submit an #STRask or Open Mic question. Visit www.str.org/broadcast for details.
I didn’t get anything from this. Still trying to figure this out.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Well taught teacher. I wonder what coincidence it is that I have had a long-held desire to understand covenants taught in the Bible and now I have stumbled on videos discussing these two phenomena from two or so days ago. This is after encountering a teacher who explained the Davidic covenant. Some time ago I felt the Holy Spirit convicting me that understanding covenants is one way of understanding the Bible. I am fairly versed with dispensations in the Bible whereby I learnt the Church and Israel are two parallel entities. The church is predominantly but not exclusively Gentile (not to contradict you sir).This enabled me to understand certain biblical doctrines eg rapture which I find we have divergent views about. I am an ordinary believer who did not know that in the theological circles there were these terminologies esp the "covenants". I gather that there is a correlation between the two such that because of the covenants (read promises) God has made with several individuals including Israel, there is therefore need for dispensations eg the millennium. While I have not studied the above two phenomena hand in hand, I have known each separately, seeing no contradiction between them, and the impact they have on one's overall grasp of the scriptures. But we shouldn't allow confusion to come our way through intellectual approach to the Bible for our justification is simply on the basis of faith.
I’m confused about this: Israel is held off from being a light to draw the gentiles to salvation until the full number of gentiles is brought in. If the full number of gentiles gets brought in then who will be left for Israel to draw to salvation?
Thanks for the question! We invite you to call in to our weekly broadcast to discuss your thoughts with Greg Koukl. He'd love to hear from you. Or you can submit an #STRask or Open Mic question. Visit www.str.org/broadcast for details.
I have reviewed many explanations on this subject from both reformed and dispensational teachers. This is simply the best one I've seen. I totally agree with his assessment because i've read it in the Bible and that's how it unfolds. Thank you sir.
Check out 'Larry T Smith Lesson 1'. Be blessed.
Amen
End times events describe a Nation of Israel separate from Christian believers . All of the ramifications of that are not entirely clear but God is definitely going to handle the people and The Land of Irael in a manner different than all of the believers throughout the World .
Jesus is the blessing to the nations.
Yes, the exact fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that his Seed would bless all nations. He will be a blessing to Israel if they will but believe.
@billholt5573 True. Except the descendents of Abraham disappeared in the 2nd Century. White people in modern Isreal are eastern European.
@billholt5573 Yes. The Dispensationalists have perverted Gen 12:3. Paul explains that it is not "seeds but seed, who is Christ." The Blasphemers have no answer to Paul.
What does “all Israel” mean? Romans 9 says, It is not as though God’s word [the Gospel] had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Therefore, can “all Israel” be all of the elect Jews throughout the church age (and a larger number of Jews) before the second advent of Christ? Of course.
Very well put, sir. I find myself holding to something likened to “reformed” dispensationalism.
With all do respect I don’t agree. I would love for you and Steve Gregg to have a debate about this topic. I believe you know him or at least know of him. And I’m sure he would do it, maybe even on his radio show “the narrow path “.
What I do appreciate is that both of you are intelligent, sincere, but most of all respectful. And I know for sure it would be interesting to all.
Blessings Greg to you and your family.
Romans 9:6-8 makes it clear. "... they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” (Gen 21:12) 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh ... are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." i.e.: physical heritage has nothing to do with the final and total reign of God. Also consider Galatians 3:5-9 5 "Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?- 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:5-9 (NKJV)
what does the nation have to offer outside of the NC? there is new covenant theology that disagrees with both DT & CT
Nothing, but the fullness of the new covenant doesn't come until all Israel is saved.
@@collin501 the fullness comes in the age to come
Rom 11:25-27 Now I don’t want you, my brothers, to start imagining things, and I must therefore share with you my knowledge of God’s secret plan. It is this, that the partial insensibility which has come to Israel is only to last until the full number of the Gentiles has been called in. Once this has happened, all Israel will be saved, as the scripture says: ‘The deliverer will come out of Zion, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, for this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins’.
all Israel is all jews and gentiles saved
Galatians 6: 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule-to[b] the Israel of God.
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 I agree it's in the age to come. Are you a universalist?
@@collin501 why would u think i was a universalist?
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 you said "all Israel is all Jews and Gentiles saved." I couldn't tell if you were saying that all Jews and Gentiles will be saved, or that all of the Jews and Gentiles who end up being saved will be called all Isreal. From your response it seems like you take the second. Is that true?
I understand Paul to be talking about ethnic Israel in Ro. 11. He speaks of a partial hardening and salvation to only a remnant at the present time, but then in contrast to that all Israel will be saved in the end. You read it differently though, correct?
I believe this entire controversy between Dispensation and Covenant theology is best suited for those who have too much time on their hands. Perhaps being more Christ-like in our thoughts, deeds, and feelings would be a better use of our time.
Dunno, it has real-world consequences here in the states. Let’s just say that you got about 40-50 house reps and maybe a couple senators that lean disp- (or who has their ear$) and at least a FEW who have stated their political influence whatever that might be will be wielded in accordance with their religious convictions. Full stop. Namely the nation of “Israel”’s part in their eschatology…soooo there’s that. Never mind how those machinations play out depending on the White House occupant. Oh yeah, and I’d say the Supreme Court is a little less than a coin-toss atm.
That’s been my position since I can remember!
Yes and no. DS. C. Sonnevelt has written a book about this topic. Jews will be converted but it has nothing to do with a political secular state.
Yes. Amen. It's part of what I have been trying to convey.
The problem with this distinction which I believe is biblical turns the church into relating to Israel not as a people to be evangelist but support them politically which I again do not disparage.
This is very interesting. I'm not sure where my belief system lies somewhere in the middle. I disagree with the idea that when God said that the world would be saved through the seed of Abraham, He meant the nation of Israel but that He was speaking of Jesus. Jesus was to be a direct descendant of Abraham. Gal 3:29 is clear that now the church is Abraham's seed. This includes messianic Jews but not the nation of Israel. The Bible is clear that the promises of Abraham are for the church, including messianic Jews, but not the nation of Israel. (John 8:39-40, Gal 3:13-14) these are not the only scriptures to support this idea. But for time and space it's all I've listed.
Hello, my brother. Wow, this will sound critical, but it's not. Your message is clear. But, I think you mean "linch pin" not "hinch pin." Just trying to help. Be blessed! 😎👍🏻
Romans chapters 9 to 11 talks about this...
What about Hebrews 11:11 " 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore." Is it about ethnic Israel or people who are by faith...? God had a plan through ethnic Israel bring the Messiah so that gentiles will be part of new Israel....
These promises were fulfilled in Christ, who is the Israel of God.
7:00 Maybe the National Israel the OT prophets were talking about is the church, spiritual Israel after Christ returns ... the Kabballah, talmud, Zohar synagogue of satan Jews are clearly not the light of the world the Bible talks about, who even knows what they are doing in underground tunnels. Maybe the scattered sheep of the 12 tribes come from gentiles (Spiritual National Israel), it doesn't mean that there has to be some kind of dispensationalism to reconcile OT prophecies about a National Israel.
An important question here is "who is Israel?" Paul in Rom 9-11 seems to indicate that the position of being "Israel" is not what it was in the OT. That is, the promises of blessing and witnesses for Israel go to the present and future people of God--those who come by faith in Messiah. I don't think you can reconcile Israel promises with the Lord Jesus' teaching in
John Ch 5.24-25, a people who have firmly rejected Messiah have any inheritance, present or future, in the great prophecies of Isaiah,Jeremiah, and others--those are for the NEW people of God, who fulfill them. And that does not bar Jews from turning to their Messiah individually and becoming a part of the Kingdom promises.
1/3 of the nation of Israel will come to faith, be protected during the last half of 7?year end of history, thhen go into the millinieum when He'll keep His promises to Israel.
I see the logic but I do think it’s missing other parts of scripture like how in Romans Paul clearly talks about the unbelieving Jews being pruned off the olive tree and believing Gentiles been grafted on. The mistake being made is that the church is the new Israel. The Gentiles have been grafted into the family investigation started by Abraham in the genealogies of Jesus since Jesus is the one doing the grafting in the one in which we have the ability to partake in those promises is the descended to which we are all connected to Abraham. If you reread those prophecies in the old testament with an eye towards getting the church rather than the nation of Israel as an epically Jewish nation you will see how they line up perfectly with that view
I don't fully agree with you but I also don't fully disagree with you either. I think that the promises that were given to the nation of Israel will be fulfilled for the 12,000 members of each tribe that God seals for Israel at the end of the tribulation.
Haha what ??? Dear Lord
@@KoolCat-vg1rt I don't recall making a joke, what's funny?
@@andyknightwarden9746 my bad , it just struck me as funny because there are clear verses about the beginning of the millennium and I think the 144,000 are more like Christians will be when we’re glorified!
@@KoolCat-vg1rt well I'm sorry to hear that. You're wrong, and here's why: near the beginning of the book of Revelation, all the members the church are taken up by the spirit into heaven. The 144,000 are mentioned far later than this near the end of the book, and relate specifically to the Jews of Israel, not the aforementioned members the church. If you want to look at how our bodies will be when we are glorified and Resurrection with Jesus Christ you need merely to look at what Jesus Christ was able to do did after his resurrection. We could move at great speed, was not bound by walls, ate for the pleasure of eating, not because it was a necessity, among other things.
@@andyknightwarden9746 haha , Revelation 14:4 !! We will be raptured any day now and if the 144 thousand are sealed in Rev 7 and then we see them in the above verse redeemed and called First fruits at the end of the tribulation, so how can they be first when we were already raptured?? And if there redeemed then how can they repopulate the earth during the 1000 reign ?? And haven’t you ever read Matthew 25:34 ?? I’m a little above ur level uncle Andy , so if u want real answers then ask the smart questions ✝️
Zechariah 14:16 indicates that the survivors of the defeated enemies who came against Jerusalem will be required, yearly, to come to Jerusalem and observe the feast of booths. The feast of booths is not part of the church, today, nor historically. And why Jerusalem? It features as a prominent part of the Christian story. But beyond that, Christianity has never had much to do with it. You are correct. God is not done with Israel, not by a long shot. Most of God's promises to the jews have yet to be fulfilled. And he is not able to break his promises. He will keep every promise he ever made.
What Paul means in Romans 9 to 11is not some future restoration, but, rather, 'of course God has not abandoned the Jews, they too have the option of choosing Christ'.
The ''fullness'' of gentiles means ''that which makes complete''. So. The gentiles combined with the believing Jews make up 'all Israel'.
in the bible is 3D Izrael is named nation and church is named people allways.
we have to understand this
Jesus said of the nation of Israel your house is left unto you desolate,the lineage was about Christ and no one else
Don't hold your breath for a national, geopolitical restoration. The miraculous Child of promise established the new Israel by means of faith.
No who has any spiritual knowledge expects man to do anything spiritual. The fact that God will keep His promise to the Jewish nation has nothing to do with man's political systems. There is no "new" Israel ---just the original who will be blessed just like He said they would be blessed. I assume that you believe God didn't lie to Abraham and all the way through the OT-----maybe not it seems that many do.
But there is the “new” Jerusalem which comes down from heaven if I’m not mistaken, I’d think it’d squash whatever happened to be in place before. This might be unfair since you commented a year ago but- saying the bloodline of Abraham still needs the land grant strikes me as not seeing the forest for the trees to put it kindly, as if that is more important than all the law and prophets being fulfilled in Christ and his death, burial and resurrection. But that’s kinda where we are today, right? Christ came and fulfilled all the law and the prophets even extending redemption to the whole world yet what matters to some is to rebuild earthy kingdoms and temples and religious rituals, rather than believe on Him and have true life, living water, His body bread of life broken.
You’re right we are not given salvation because of our nationality. Yet Jesus, said after Judging the Israel generation ( & that generation would NEVER be forgiven) that did not accept him,… Jerusalem Jerusalem. ……. ending with NOW you will not see me UNTiL YOU ( ISRAEL ) say Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.
Summed up: you’re just a regular Bible believer with a good hermeneutic
There is one Root!
1 Peter 2:9-10 ESV - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
I think the "you" is Christians. Could I be wrong?
Mark 1:15 ESV - and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
What does this fulfillment mean? Spoken by Jesus Christ when he began his ministry.
This stuff means something. To brush it off and say it is a mystery is lazy. God gave us this Bible, and a God given brain, for a reason and there is a correct answer to these questions. The're only a few mysteries remaining in the Bible. What are they? Everything else is not a mystery.
So, if I hear correctly, God saves people, whether they want to or not? Hmmmm?
Yes He has to because all human beings by nature, do not want salvation.
@@1lebero I must be special because you see, in my perverse lifestyle before coming to Christ, I knew in every fiber of my body that I was lost!!!! I knew I needed to be rescued from myself and high on drugs, God's grace was poured on me and I repented of my sin, egotistical life, pride etc etc. I wept for nearly an hour. I experienced John 1:12. Being 'dead' doesn't mean the inability to believe (as John 1:12 states unequivocally) it the awareness that we are SEPARATED from our Creator, and He has made the way. Faith comes by hearing! Why is it so hard to believe that God loves everyone and has made a way for everyone to come Him? By the way, I was saved 37 years ago on September 25, 1985. I continue to walk with Him and I continue to share the free gift of God to anyone who will LISTEN & BELIEVE.
We have to think in terms of the organic unfolding of the scriptures as to the understanding of Israel v church and not our 2024 anachronism. For a large part of history, there was no nation state of Israel. Even as the nation state of Israel stands today, only those within it who are in Christ shall be saved. Jews of any sort outright deny the deity and work of Christ. There is one people of God and one way of salvation, not two. A maintaining of some necessity of a national Israel for the promises of God to complete is in whole against the gospel.
Its not against the gospel it is simply a misreading of scripture where the conditionality of relationship is highlighted
That was 8 minutes of dispensationalism and about 20 seconds on covenant theology you guys need to retitle this video because it really didn't have anything to do with covenant theology
The longer I grow as a Christian the more I do not like theological terms and labels.
He doesn’t understand dispensationalism, or he would not say that he is some kind of a dispensationalist. There are not five gospels. And it is not the children of the flesh but the children of the promise who are Israel. Christ IS on the throne, and prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and through His carrying out of His plan through the church in the world, which is being built up into Him who is The Head, we are the body. It’s really not that difficult. But we have all been bathed in dispensationalism since birth.
Americans have swallowed Darby's incoherent ramblings since shortly after he first produced them. Its amazing any thinking person could still buy into this ?
How could the national Jews bring light to the Gentiles when they are in the dark regarding the Messiah? This is absurd!
Good question
Bravo! 👌😲
This was a spot on definition!
Our Lord has been walking with me for almost 15 years yet this is the first time that I've actually understood the finer nuances of my faith! 🤯
🫵😉 😄😎 I think I just experienced a 1 Corinthians 3:6 moment! ✝️