I rarely jump in with comments to videos but, as a business owner, this idea is a very common debate businesses have. It pains me to say this, but the people talking about this being an ad for Menards or thinking this is about cabinet-making or finding a cheap fridge are missing the BIG PICTURE. This topic is just an example to get you thinking about where your time and money are going. The decision making framework is way different than for a DIY hobbyist when you are diverting hourly paid staff (including possibly yourself) to stop doing work for customers and do something internal to the business. What's missing in the thought process is how profit margin created the project budget. Assuming a 20% after taxes profit margin , it really takes $7500 of sales to make $1500 to buy the cheap cabinets. The question for the business owner becomes - "Is the shop-built solution worth it to divert resources from paying sales to the shop built project?" As other have commented, for the DIY hobbyist, there is often no point in assigning an hourly wage unless you are literally missing hours at a paying job instead of building the project. The comparisons are almost never apples to apples and if your business is busy working OT you have no resources to divert. Cost, speed, build quality, hardware quality, aesthetics, functionality, custom features vs. generic, and durability are all factors that have different weighting for different things at different times.
This is the best comment posted yet for this video. Everyone taking digs at the content or Travis's logic for making it needs to read and internalize this.
I see both sides to determining the value of one’s time. I just happen to be of the mind that if my time to enjoy a hobby is “free”, then there is no ROI to determine. Everything is a plus. And honestly, looking at the state of my prefab cabinets in my house versus the professionally made and installed ones. I’m leaning way more towards DIY now more than ever.
I think that’s the point of the video: you need to decide for yourself what your free time is worth to you. If making stuff is your favorite way to spend time, then by all means make stuff! But there are certain projects that don’t have to be completely custom built. For this guy it was a break room in his shop. For you it might be something else. Everything is cost vs benefit.
I would think had you compared apples to apples not particle board to plywood I'd have agreed. Quality cabinets would have cost as much as three times & even more then the price of a cheep set. I do believe you are correct on the value of time & it should be spent where it yields the best results!
The reason that a lot of people choose to build instead of buy is because time is something that they have, so it makes more sense to spend less on materials to provide their own labour over the pre-made cabinets
Also when you have a small space and need to maximize the space, you can customize the cabinets more than if you were doing off the shelf. I can't tell you the number of times I've repaired the kitchen cabinets in our guest house. The cabinets just get way to much use.
As handy as we all can be. That “handiness” is not our most precious resource, it is “time” whenever and wherever you can get more of this it’s always win. Keep crushing it man! Great vid
I like how you discussed the hidden labour cost of diy. I think you should’ve mentioned how long it took you to assemble the store bought units. While a smaller labour cost on that side that is also hidden it is a small cost to also factor along with the headaches of possibly damaged goods
The other factor that never seems to be compared is "What you had to earn". Depending upon your tax bracket, you might have to earn $1900 to be able to purchase $1200 worth of cabinets!
I will do it myself. It will take me at least 60 hours. I will learn how to better build cabinets though. I haven’t done my own drawers yet. I’m retired, so it doesn’t matter how I value my time. I’m not making $20 an hour after tax even though I made many times that back in the day 😉
I’ll definitely continue to build cabs for personal projects, because I enjoy doing it. But for my place of business? In that application it’s all about ROI of your time vs outcome. Unless you have a lot of time to burn between prints I think you made the right choice!
I'm retired... I have nothing but time. I don't use dollars to determine what to make. I look at the value the project provides to my family/friend group to determine what comes next.
This reminds me of my closet project. I COULD have bought all the plywood and made everything out of much nicer materials than iKEA PAX units....but I banged it out in a weekend. I can still "church it up" by nailing some trim on the face, baseboards on the bottoms, and some crown on the top in another weekend. If I built the units myself I'd have take at least a month to get it all done. I also did the math...it came out almost exactly the same price vs buying the materials
I also found these Menards cabinets to help a client cut down costs in a kitchen remodel. They wanted a clean Euro look in white. By adding custom elements in white melamine, I was able to make the entire installed kitchen look very architecturally integrated at very economical price. I highly doubt that the difference in case quality compared to what it would have cost to build the same kitchen in our shop will translate into any loss of longevity. Great way to go on a limited budget.
The struggle is real. For this application, I think you were right on. It's done in a fraction of the time it would take to build and with the new shop needing attention, you have other fish to fry!
Really appreciate and enjoy how often you are forward with real dollar sign figures. Especially since you’re in the minority of UA-camrs who focus on that. Cost is unavailable and as much as imagination and passion would be a great ceiling, budget winds up be one of the biggest determining factors on what projects I tackle and when.
I grew up in a cabinet/ countertop shop. Built custom cabinets, sold premade cabinets, and so on. I have no issue with particle board, but there are big differences in what we used and what you get in a premade cabinet from a big box store. our sheets were dense and heavy, stay flat. What you get in big box store is light and full of voids, but they bring a premium price for the quality. Not a fan but they do have their place, and sometimes buying instead of building when running a business is the smart thing to do.
Most people seem to forget that the best project is a completed project. 4 hours vs 30 hours for buy vs build. From a business standpoint that is 26 more hours that could be used for revenue producing activities.
This should have 1k likes and is one of the main factors when making this decision as an actual business or trying to treat your hobby/side hustle as a real business.
For DIY activities, I always consider a few things. How much is my time worth, how fast do I need it done, and how long does it need to last. When considering how much my time is worth, you have to consider what type of work you normally do. Can you just pick up more hours and then be paid more, or are your hours set. For my job, it doesn't matter how many extra hours I work, I get paid for the 40 per week. That means that in my free time, I earn nothing. It doesn't matter if I am watching TV or building cabinets, my time is free, so I shouldn't factor that in. My brother in law is a patent lawyer. He can easily pick up another case in any free time he has. That means that his free time has a price on it. It is most definitely cheaper for him to just pick up another case to pay for anything extra he wants. For how fast I need it, sometimes we need it done right now, and sometimes it can wait. Hiring someone to do it might be faster, and sometimes it is slower, depends on what it is. For how long does it need to last, those cabinets will not last as long as DIY ones made from plywood. You might have to replace those 2 or 3 times before DIY ones break.
Great explanation. I was about to post the same thoughts. I work a salaried job, and I do DIY in my spare time. So my "labor cost" is how much value I put on sitting on the couch watching TV vs building some cabinets, rather than comparing it to my work-day hourly rate. For some projects I consider my labor cost as 0, since I am enjoying the process of building as much as I would any other free time activity. Cheers.
I agree Travis... I have a locker I got from my old work 25 small cubbies I was going to make into a paint and stain storage by adding 2" foam board around the sides and back. Well my current employer had a refrigerator that stopped working and I decided to get it for my paints and stains instead. I think for fun I will mark every can I have on the outside of the fridge just to give it color
The build vs buy debate is one I've been having with myself a lot recently. I moved a couple years ago into a much bigger living space and decided that I was going to buy decent quality furniture and I was willing to pay good money for it. I simply dont have the time to build a lot of things for myself. Less than 2 years later and I'm having a host of issues with stuff falling apart, particularly annoyed about the bed frame that costs over 1000 dollars being little more than a few mdf boards and is now a rickety mess.
that's a nightmare all too common. i dread it. i'm not at the point i can build a lot of this myself yet. but i get so pissed that they price the stuff like gold and what you get is a lump of wet straw, basically. they build things to fall apart so that you have to replace. consumerism/capitalism at work. our landfills weep.
I won't understand why people think of his as a strictly DIY channel. It is literally about "shop greatness" and that means that sometimes you buy and sometimes you DIY. So long as it is increasing the greatness of your shop, you done good!
Kitchen cabinets have been made out of repurposed sawdust forever, and they hold up for decades. Theres a time and place for expensive cabinetry. Storing your Pringles in a warehouse probably isn’t one of them. Love how open your channel is about everything you do ❤
And just a little bit of water and you’ll wish you never saw or used pressed board cabinets. They’re called cheep builder grade for a reason. Ask me how I know.
I already used Ikea kitchen furniture for my shop 20-odd years ago. Just bought another 3 of them a week ago. Quality I great, quick to set up and looks great.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. When you just need something done, buying is the way to go. Closet and basement storage is like that for me. I buy that stuff to save my time for the things that really matter
My business is custom furniture and cabinetry. My wife's craftroom has Ikea Kalex Shelving. Because they were actually cheaper than the materials. Buy the time saved is where they really paid off. I think 30hours from build to install is a good estimate for simple frameless/painted cabinets.
The one thing that might hamstring the purchase is that the cabinets are not close to being as durable as the ones you would have built out of the materials listed. In a work environment things tend to be treated a little rougher, so the lifespan might break down that ROI a bit if they don't last very long. Hopefully they do but going from experience of working in a big box store that redid the breakroom with stock cabinets we sold on the shelf, you may be replacing them sooner than later.
Exactly as proven by his showing how shoddy the material was in the first place. Hamster bedding. Then he compares that to plywood cost. That's a technical foul in my book.
Buying is a solid plus when quality is not the main concern. To our community it’s all about quality and that’s why we do it. Which you acknowledge very well in your video. Great video!
Travis put you a walk-up snack bar in the corner you identified, a small table right in front of the bar for 2 or 3 people with another table in front of the storage closet doors?? Just a thought.... Travis, can I work for you??? I'm a hard worker, dedicated, motivated, and very team oriented!!!!😊
As my time has become more valuable over the years, I find myself doing more and more of these comparisons in my head for so many DIY (and a bit more than DIY) projects. The first few times you pay someone to do something you know you can do yourself is hard but I've finally come to the realization (and yes I realized how privileged I am to be in this position because I wasn't for a very long time) but my time not money is my most in demand and precious thing and if I can buy my time back and still come out ahead I'll do that every day... and then complain that someone didn't do as good of a job as I would, but that's my perfectionism flaring up haha.
Great post. One thing nice about building your own is you can customize size or function. I am renovating a 123 year old house, and I am still deciding on which way to go with cabinets. However this video was a big help. Thanks for sharing.
I’ve done a kitchen with professional cherry cabinets and one with Ikea prefabs. Both are great. If you assemble the prefab with glue plus the nails they provide you get sturdy cabinets that will last. Prefab assembly was one whole day, and no sawdust, building would have been at least a week and constant dust. I could build the new kitchen I’m working on from scratch, or pro, or prefab. Maybe glued prefab boxes and drawers and custom faceframes and doors?
Context is everything and I think given that these cabinets are in a corner of your shop, I totally see the value of your choice. Might not be what you want in your home, but in the corner it’s perfect.
I 100% feel this way about projects like you just did and kids room furniture. It was enlightening to me years ago when I saw Mike Farrington put together an Ikea dresser for his kids room. A master builder that truly understands the value of his own time.
I'm with you on that! When I needed to outfit my new garage I ended up ordering three sets of the Husky welded steel cabinets during one of the sales events. Each set came with a 76 inch tall cabinet, two regular ones and a wall unit, so a total of 4 pieces. The total cost for all 12 pieces was $1500 and there was no assembly required. Because when I ran the numbers for how much it would cost me to build the same thing from scratch using high quality materials it came out to just a few hundred dollars less. It also required me to be tied up for many days for no reason other than making storage for my tools when I could be using that time for making opportunities.
This might be my most favorite video of yours. Time is so often left out in our cost and value assessments. Time is perhaps more valuable than any of the materials used in the project.
Having built the upper cabinets for my workshop from your plans I had already decided to buy the lower cabinets. My decision is partly based on the fact that the lowest grade of birch ply that I can buy is B/C and birch ply is not on the shelves of big box stores. The B side comes up very nicely with hard wax oil. I will make all doors and drawer fronts from Baltic birch to match the wall cabinets.
I think less than 5% of people in the US, probably less, make enough money to be able to actually say “it was more economical to just buy them”. The top 5% of the US makes over 140k and depending on where you live and your family size 140k still isn’t that much. Not saying that this is a blanketed statement, however just simply from an economical viewpoint there aren’t many people that make that much an hour (after tax). I too ponder this question quite often and although this comment is an oversimplification, I often find this to be a very difficult question to answer for so many people.
@@ShopNation There are many qualitative reasons, such as the value of spending time with family. I fail to see the quantitative/economical equations where this makes sense though. Most people make less money in a side gig away from their day job and there for the most they will make is during their day job. Obviously there is opportunity cost with using your time doing something that takes away from something else you are building economically. I agree with you 100% for people who are pursing something more in their free time or are full time in their own business. I guess my point was that for the vast majority of people that doesn’t apply. Maybe I am misinterpreting your comment all together though. Comment sections can be nightmare to communicate in😅
I used these in my kitchen refresh. 100% recommend them unless you need a some sort of custom size or feature you can't get off the shelf. Huge time saver and pretty decent quality if you can't be without your space for an extended period while you figure things out.
For my kitchen remodel, I chose to get Ikea cabinet bases, and then made all the doors and drawer fronts myself, so the most visible parts are custom made. However, that was 12 years ago, and I had lower skill level. At the time, I thought building my own cabinets entirely from scratch was beyond me. I'm not sure what I would decide to do now, after having built some additional cabinets entirely myself. This is my hobby and not my job, but that means I have even less time to divide up among what projects I take on.
Great video, That is something I struggle with myself. I just bought cabinets for a small kitchenette rather than making them myself. My only counter point would be if you had customers who would see that installation when were giving a tour or something. Then you would want your craftsmanship to really stand out. That might not be the case though.
I just installed a large kitchen using these cabinets. The feet included are almost useless. Solid bases are actually quicker for a long assembled counter over a less than perfect floor. The 'quality' of the units is about what you would expect. Perfect for a rental or a beginner home , however not even close to a quality custom kitchen. If entry level cabinets are needed where cost is important then Menards is a great option.
I'm a custom cabinet maker. Not all partical boards are bad. They just decided to use a cheap version of it. There is absolutely 0 benefit from upgrading from a highly compressed partical board core HPL to a ply or MDF core HPL. In fact you may get some negative effects such as warping with a ply core.
Built my entire kitchen from scratch. Working on it part time took WAY too long. Not sure I would do it again. Saved a ton of money though so that’s a plus
Thanks Travis. Several thoughts to ponder. If you need it now, this is the way to go. If you are not in a hurry maybe, just maybe build it yourself. I am not the guy that has "scraps" laying around to build stuff with. I have to go to and "buy" my scraps. If you know what I mean. Over the years I have come to value your videos/advise.
I am thinking through this right now. I am finally going to build out my basement bar. I have been looking at Menards as well but at the unfinished Quality One brand. Much cheaper than those but I'd need to make some improvements. They have a lot of particle board some I'm still leery. I don't have to consider the hourly rate because I have a full time job. This is home improvement.
Hey Travis, I think you made the right decision regarding the break area. Chances are you may move to yet a bigger building someday. If and when you do, you probably won’t be taking the cabinets with you. It’s easier to leave Menards cabinets vs the ones you poured hours into. See you in the next installment.
I live in Michigan, and I love shopping at Menards! Great alternative to Lowe's or HD. And I think they have a much bigger selection of items. Seems that I can't go in there and not spend at least $50 on something that catches my eye.
Jason, Great video, my friend. I run across this dilemma a significant amount of my time. But you said it: the opportunity to learn from my mistakes and the pure frustration of doing so as they are presented. I love your videos because of your presentation and humor. Thanks for all you do for the community of builders. Felix
@@ShopNationTravis, talk about a significant mistake. I guess I could blame it on Spellcheck, but I don't think that will fly in this instance because that was me. My apologies, my friend.
Compressed hamster bedding 😂 A friend held an "Ikea cabinet assembling party." We showed up holding a crumpled cardboard sign reading "will assemble cabinets for food." They leaned a bit too heavy on a cross piece and broke it, so we repaired it for them by replacing with some real 1x4.
I had to subscribe just for the compressed hamster bedding comment. I picked up two pallets of cabinets from one of the box store returns sales for $900. We used them in the laundry, office, pantry and garage. I could build way better stuff even as a hobbyist but the time to do it all was the main reason besides the crazy good deal we got.
Travis, I have always watched your videos for the transparency. But I simply cannot stand for this! The people of UA-cam do not know if you factored in the 11% rebate into your overall budget! 😂😂😂
30 hours for 4 cabinets is a massive amount of time, outside of waiting for the paint to dry. A decent professional can easily put 4 cabinets together, including with drawers in under 1/2 a day. I agree though that most people when they think of DIY saving money don’t tend to include their time; to me it depends on what the work is and who it’s for as I’ll donate my time, so to speak, for myself and some family and friends, but outside of that buying could definitely be cheaper than me making them as I bill out my time at multiple times that $20/hr rate. While I include general war and tear on my tooling in my hourly rate, which is one reason it is what it is, as I have all the needed tooling and things naturally wear out, and an expense that should always be baked into projects. I built a custom built in for my mother with 10 cabinets each with doors and drawers along with a custom “L” limiter counter in 2 days; the counter was 3/4” plywood with a piece of 5’x10’ laminate cut down and fit over the front and the top. A big miss on the buy vs. build is longevity as the plywood and hardwood cabinets I built and you would have will be stronger and last longer than the particle board cabinets you’d buy, which even when your time is taken to account could be cheaper long term as the bought cabinets need to be replaced more frequently in a business/commercial environment then ones build from plywood; or the custom cabinets built out of plywood would simply have cost more up front than the particle board ones, leading to a different value calculation.
I was gonna say the same thing. Could you spend 30 hours... absolutely but not if your trying to be comparable in quality. I could knock out something comparable in a long day before paint. Sure, the doors and drawer faces will only look like shaker doors (1/2" MDF with 1/4" MDF strips glued to the front to look like stiles and rails) but once painted you would never know the difference; or maybe I would do everything with prefinished plywood and just do slab doors and faces (maybe even leave the exposed edges for some texture). I would probably build them as a single bank, rather than individual cabinets to save some material and time (because you don't need to move them out of the shop anyway). And pocket screws would be the extent of the joinery. But they would be both cheaper and probably more durable than the compressed hamster bedding.
I worked at a cabinet shop for a while and we'd do full size kitchens in a day just 4 of us, usually we had 3 projects being built at the same time, once we had 7. No CNC. I would like to think I could build what he bought in 3 days including paint and install if the house was close by.
You can eliminate wood with drywall in many situations by framing it in shaker panels, or covering exposed edges with trim for a wainscoting option. It's the cheapest 4x8 material here as far as I know. IMO this would be a much bigger exaggeration of time VS money than his example. I wonder if fake wainscoting could increase a homes value lol.
I think the better argument isn't what it costs in your time... But what would your time be better spent doing. Let's say, if you DIY, you would save $100/hr, and your normal bill rate is only $50... Seems like a no brainier; but it's not. As a business owner, your value isn't measured by your hourly rate, but by the growth rate of the business. So while you may save the company several hundred dollars... You could have spent that time growing the business by securing a new client, or completing customer work ahead of schedule so your free to start a new customer project and get a good reputation. By focusing on growth, rather than the bottom line, especially before you have your first few employees, will yield bigger dividends in the long run.
@@josephhfry: I can understand your point and think it can be a good view, or expansion of view. I’d say as a business owner myself in the trades shop projects/infrastructure tend to be done as time is available and when it isn’t if something is needed it’s bought, so it’s not as if doing or making something would be taking away from something else. As a person a few generations into the trades there is something to be said for longevity, something which can’t tend to be bought today, at least not for affordable prices; there are parts of my business and shop that are decades if not near a century old and still working and working well because they were built well. It isn’t always about money or what someone can do or what else they could be doing sometimes it’s just about pride in ones job or business and making things that can outlast you, of saying that’s the case here but some of us do enjoy doing things simply out of pride, irrespective of compensation or time.
Actually, I agree with this. I like to buy stock cabinets with oak fronts unfinished. That way it's a better quality wood on the front of the cabinet that I can paint or stain or whatever I want to do. I recently bought some that HD was clearancing out for 30% off. Made it a no brainer for a project I was working on. By the time I bought the wood and the drawer slides, it would have cost about the same. I will be changing out the fronts though, I don't like them. On another note, I think I would have picked something different for your top, the white and cream kinda clash, but OK for a shop kitchen I guess.
Being for your business, definitely the way to go. Cost of cabinets are a business expense and you have 20+ hrs available to doing profit producing work.
good video. I am a custom cabinet maker, and I am always telling people to go to Ikea for basement utility units. Don't go custom unless you can't find one off the shelf that will work.
Hiya Travis great video but change that Fridge and Water Dispenser the other way round so the Fridge is in the corner, the only way someone will see the water would be straight on as the fridge covers the view one side, while the corner wall covers the view the other side and plus it will look much better having the taller fridge in the corner. Stay Safe, Barry (ENG)
With the fridge against the wall the door opens into the wall, so the water dispenser acts as a natural spacer to avoid smashing your hand on the handle
We’re looking for cabinets in our new home. Kitchen, bathroom, utility room, even some out in the garage. Seems to me the middle ground that’s missing from the market is higher end DIY. I’d love to see flat pack versions of very simple 1/2” and 3/4” plywood cabinets. We’d be willing to assemble, install hardware and paint. Even better, make them modular and interoperable with other ecosystems out there and you pick up a ton of customization. I’m just looking for some options for Euro cabinets between a few k for hamsterboard or $20-30k for full custom or DIY for frameless cabinets.
I know exactly what you mean. I even bought your cabinet plans to make my own for the shop. Then I went and bought a cheap set at Menards. ROI just wasn't there to make them myself.
I just made my own shop cabinets, I couldn't imagine being satisfied with particle board equivalents, no matter what my time is valued at. That said, they still aren't painted, so there's that aspect! Once things get usable, they get used instead of finished around here.
I found Menards to be weird when I lived in Michigan. They always had the most random selection of inventory. It was always an adventure going to find something. 😂
For a big box home improvement store, Menards has some of the best material in my opinion especially when you take into consideration it is just a big box store.
In a business environment your cost calculation makes sense. For a hobbiest, I don’t think it does. I think the question is if you aren’t fabricating X, what else would you be doing. If the answer is watching TV or playing Xbox then fabricating X yourself is likely a more cost effective option. If it’s playing with the kids or going on a date with your spouse and buying X from Menards vs making X yourself the answer might be different. Or if you really want X and just can’t afford it but have the free time to makes some that vaguely resembles X then that’s a different answer. It’s more about how you choose to spend your time and money and less about the theoretical monetary value of your labor.
Makes perfect sense to me. I would have done a refrigerator panel & cabinet above the fridge for more space don't forget your countertop end cap kit 🤷🏼♂️🤙🏼
Looks like you made the right choice for your situation. Doubt you can afford to lose a week of productivity with your business, while not the highest quality, those cabinets will serve their purpose just fine.
Today on how I pursue shop greatness, I put together ikea cabinets because my time is better spent literally making a video of me using a screwgun while giving a cursory lesson on opportunity costs with guitar power cord sounds in the background, cuz I know I’ll make more money from sponsors and views no matter what content I put out. Dollars and hours saved are dollars and hours earned!! You go pursue “shop greatness”.
@@ShopNation meh, it was off the cuff before bed. Nice video and good idea, just not shop nation/greatness. If you’re western channel showed muppets you’d probably say something similar. Expecting John Wayne and you get Elmo.
Used to be in the fitted furniture industry, in UK 80& 90’s. Can honestly say IKEA kitchen cabinets are 1st rate. They use the very best hinge hardware. 19mm sheets materials. My dad swopped to using them rather than make his own for standard cabinets.
Had a similar experience when I moved house and need to urgently complete a laundry reno. Being in Australia our wood prices are higher and ikea just turned out cheaper, the biggest thing though was that it needed to be done fast and I already had a bunch of things I was doing sometimes we have to sallow our pride and just get the job done.
I bought those exact cabinets for my kitchen last year and they were horrible. First of all, Menards missed a lot of my order so I was always running back and forth to the store to pick up the parts of my order that they didn't put on the pallet. On more than one occasion, I opened the box to find the wrong type/color of drawer or door front - back to Menards I went. My biggest gripe with these cabinets is the hinges. I couldn't get the doors to line up to save my life. The cabinet boxes were perfectly level and plumb but the doors wouldn't line up. The hinges are supposed to be adjustable but most of the hinges had screws that just wouldn't turn no matter how hard I tried turning them. I managed to get the doors to look acceptable by re-drilling new screw holes to re-hang the hinges from but they still weren't perfectly aligned and every time I went into the kitchen, it bugged me. Finally, the boxes aren't the same color as the door/drawer fronts so I had to put that colored tape on the front of every single box and I had a big kitchen. That took forever and I could never get the tape to line up correctly. The cabinets looked and felt cheap. The sides of the drawers are sloped which felt like wasted space to me. I also didn't like the linen color of the interiors. They might be fine cabinets for a garage or shop but not for a kitchen. Anyways, I sold that house and am about to start a kitchen reno in my new house. This time, I'm going with the RTA plywood cabinets from Home Depot. They are cheaper than the Klearvue Cabinets but are better built and they will deliver them right to my house.
You kind of mentioned it a bit toward the end I think, but you always have to consider whether the time you would spend DIY-ing anything is if it's actually costing you money. Like I'm salaried, not hourly. So if in a week I spend 40 hours at my job and 20 building cabinets, NOT spending 20 hours building cabinets and working 60 hours at my job doesn't actually net me any more money. Plus I enjoy it. That's actually been my life for the last couple of weeks building some shop cabinets nights and weekends - I'm stupid slow at it! But if I could be using that time for something I'd actually get paid for, then the calculation becomes tougher. Not just in terms of raw money, but also the intangible cost of how much is the enjoyment worth that I lost in not building it myself? Ultimately it's a very personal calculation and it sounds like you made the right call for your situation.
Scandinavian here, I got a good laugh from the Klëarvūe logo! Neither ë nor ū are Scandinavia letters, and the words themselves are closer to English and... French, maybe? It did give a kind of Scandinavian vibe though, I'll give them that😅
I think in this instance it totally makes sense to buy them however I think it’s an unfair comparison. You mentioned that the quality would be much higher if you built them so I think for an honest comparison it would only be fair to compare to the cost of cabinets that are the same quality as ones you could make. I think the numbers would be closer, but I still appreciate the time to break it down!
Good video showing the pro's and cons on your project. For myself personally, I would have built them, reason being, investing in a miter saw, table saw, circular saw, drill/driver, etc. etc. to collect dust would have tripped the wife aggro button. She finds out I spent double on the cabinets when I have tools to make them, that's less money for her shoe collection, not going to end well 😊😊
Aww man, compressed hamster bedding just isn't what it used to be. Great video, I like how tight and to the point it is, and of course how you always do such a good job with researching your options.
I find this buy vs build topic quite interesting. Im a cabinet maker so for me it's obvious to make rather than buy. Not because of time, this job should be about 10hrs, but because the hardware on the flat pack cabinets (here in New Zealand) is trash!!! And thats the thing that would annoy me in use of the kitchenette day to day. The board construction, Ply,Particular or MDF isn't something I would probably ever notice. But trash hardware thats always out of adjustment, that would drive me insane. Perhaps it already has? Ha Keep up the good content👍
It just comes down to a simple question. What do you have more of, time or money? I get that time is money ... but it's only money if the time spent would equate to money lost, instead of more time to waste (as alluded to in the Netflix comment lol). Just think, you could have made a longer video or even made a series if you built them yourself ... glad you didn't take this route with your outdoor "shed". lol
Not everyone can just randomly work more hours. Marginal after-tax income might be a lot lower for a lot of people. Comparing pre-built particle board cabinets with DIY plywood ones... yeah, why? Why not use melamine panels? That cuts down on the cost quickly. Solid wood for the toekick? Why? Place it further back and you will kick it 99% less. Also; don't let the side panel cut into the toespace.
Pre built or diy still gotta scribe round the pipes Good video though sometimes we forget about the labour time and just add up the materials and see only the savings
You trade labor for quality, but for a hobbyist like yourself your right just buy them. We cabinet makers use the right tools for the job, makes it efficient and easy. For that same quality I have pre programs for my CNC.
Another thing to consider, some folks have more time than they do money. So even if they value their time high enough where the 'buy' option is actually better, they may not have the cash but have the time. Or put another way, all else being equal, you can convert your time into dollars spent on a fun tool instead
There are different levels of RTA cabinets as well. I'm in the process of doing my kitchen. Quality plywood RTA cabinets. They will last and save on time. Everything has a price point and balance.
Use code SHOPNATION50 to get 50% OFF your first Factor box at bit.ly/3I2A1CY! Thank you Factor for sponsoring this video
Terrible ad for terrible company
Yeah, but I can’t use prefab cabinets as an excuse to buy a new tool, which is my true motivation for starting any project.
Oh man, so true!
You can use it as an excuse to buy the Festool Installer kit. Think High, reach high.
@@davidmeyer9204 This is the kind of can-do attitude we need.
True!
This excuse sold Festool many a domino
I rarely jump in with comments to videos but, as a business owner, this idea is a very common debate businesses have. It pains me to say this, but the people talking about this being an ad for Menards or thinking this is about cabinet-making or finding a cheap fridge are missing the BIG PICTURE. This topic is just an example to get you thinking about where your time and money are going. The decision making framework is way different than for a DIY hobbyist when you are diverting hourly paid staff (including possibly yourself) to stop doing work for customers and do something internal to the business. What's missing in the thought process is how profit margin created the project budget. Assuming a 20% after taxes profit margin , it really takes $7500 of sales to make $1500 to buy the cheap cabinets. The question for the business owner becomes - "Is the shop-built solution worth it to divert resources from paying sales to the shop built project?" As other have commented, for the DIY hobbyist, there is often no point in assigning an hourly wage unless you are literally missing hours at a paying job instead of building the project. The comparisons are almost never apples to apples and if your business is busy working OT you have no resources to divert. Cost, speed, build quality, hardware quality, aesthetics, functionality, custom features vs. generic, and durability are all factors that have different weighting for different things at different times.
Excellent!
This is the best comment posted yet for this video. Everyone taking digs at the content or Travis's logic for making it needs to read and internalize this.
I see both sides to determining the value of one’s time. I just happen to be of the mind that if my time to enjoy a hobby is “free”, then there is no ROI to determine. Everything is a plus. And honestly, looking at the state of my prefab cabinets in my house versus the professionally made and installed ones. I’m leaning way more towards DIY now more than ever.
Yes, this. The prefab units, made from compressed chips, are just horrible.
I think that’s the point of the video: you need to decide for yourself what your free time is worth to you. If making stuff is your favorite way to spend time, then by all means make stuff! But there are certain projects that don’t have to be completely custom built. For this guy it was a break room in his shop. For you it might be something else. Everything is cost vs benefit.
Great point!
I would think had you compared apples to apples not particle board to plywood I'd have agreed.
Quality cabinets would have cost as much as three times & even more then the price of a cheep set.
I do believe you are correct on the value of time & it should be spent where it yields the best results!
The reason that a lot of people choose to build instead of buy is because time is something that they have, so it makes more sense to spend less on materials to provide their own labour over the pre-made cabinets
Yes, and Pre-maid items are junk that will not last over time.
Also when you have a small space and need to maximize the space, you can customize the cabinets more than if you were doing off the shelf. I can't tell you the number of times I've repaired the kitchen cabinets in our guest house. The cabinets just get way to much use.
As handy as we all can be. That “handiness” is not our most precious resource, it is “time” whenever and wherever you can get more of this it’s always win. Keep crushing it man! Great vid
I like how you discussed the hidden labour cost of diy. I think you should’ve mentioned how long it took you to assemble the store bought units. While a smaller labour cost on that side that is also hidden it is a small cost to also factor along with the headaches of possibly damaged goods
Yes absolutely! Thought of this after I was done 😂 all in it was about 4 hours
Great. I know what it’s like to try and think of everything and still forget something
The other factor that never seems to be compared is "What you had to earn". Depending upon your tax bracket, you might have to earn $1900 to be able to purchase $1200 worth of cabinets!
@@MyGrowthRings If you go very far down that rabbit hole you realize we enabled modern China with our ridiculous taxes and labor policies.
I will do it myself. It will take me at least 60 hours. I will learn how to better build cabinets though. I haven’t done my own drawers yet.
I’m retired, so it doesn’t matter how I value my time. I’m not making $20 an hour after tax even though I made many times that back in the day 😉
I’ll definitely continue to build cabs for personal projects, because I enjoy doing it. But for my place of business? In that application it’s all about ROI of your time vs outcome. Unless you have a lot of time to burn between prints I think you made the right choice!
I'm retired... I have nothing but time. I don't use dollars to determine what to make. I look at the value the project provides to my family/friend group to determine what comes next.
If you are retired there is a good chance you are operating on a fixed income, that is a great time to be concerned with dollars.
This reminds me of my closet project. I COULD have bought all the plywood and made everything out of much nicer materials than iKEA PAX units....but I banged it out in a weekend. I can still "church it up" by nailing some trim on the face, baseboards on the bottoms, and some crown on the top in another weekend. If I built the units myself I'd have take at least a month to get it all done. I also did the math...it came out almost exactly the same price vs buying the materials
Exactly! Great example
I also found these Menards cabinets to help a client cut down costs in a kitchen remodel. They wanted a clean Euro look in white. By adding custom elements in white melamine, I was able to make the entire installed kitchen look very architecturally integrated at very economical price. I highly doubt that the difference in case quality compared to what it would have cost to build the same kitchen in our shop will translate into any loss of longevity. Great way to go on a limited budget.
The struggle is real. For this application, I think you were right on. It's done in a fraction of the time it would take to build and with the new shop needing attention, you have other fish to fry!
Really appreciate and enjoy how often you are forward with real dollar sign figures. Especially since you’re in the minority of UA-camrs who focus on that. Cost is unavailable and as much as imagination and passion would be a great ceiling, budget winds up be one of the biggest determining factors on what projects I tackle and when.
I grew up in a cabinet/ countertop shop. Built custom cabinets, sold premade cabinets, and so on. I have no issue with particle board, but there are big differences in what we used and what you get in a premade cabinet from a big box store. our sheets were dense and heavy, stay flat. What you get in big box store is light and full of voids, but they bring a premium price for the quality. Not a fan but they do have their place, and sometimes buying instead of building when running a business is the smart thing to do.
Most people seem to forget that the best project is a completed project. 4 hours vs 30 hours for buy vs build. From a business standpoint that is 26 more hours that could be used for revenue producing activities.
This should have 1k likes and is one of the main factors when making this decision as an actual business or trying to treat your hobby/side hustle as a real business.
Love the way you explain the costs for all that you do. Love your channel.
For DIY activities, I always consider a few things. How much is my time worth, how fast do I need it done, and how long does it need to last.
When considering how much my time is worth, you have to consider what type of work you normally do. Can you just pick up more hours and then be paid more, or are your hours set. For my job, it doesn't matter how many extra hours I work, I get paid for the 40 per week. That means that in my free time, I earn nothing. It doesn't matter if I am watching TV or building cabinets, my time is free, so I shouldn't factor that in. My brother in law is a patent lawyer. He can easily pick up another case in any free time he has. That means that his free time has a price on it. It is most definitely cheaper for him to just pick up another case to pay for anything extra he wants.
For how fast I need it, sometimes we need it done right now, and sometimes it can wait. Hiring someone to do it might be faster, and sometimes it is slower, depends on what it is.
For how long does it need to last, those cabinets will not last as long as DIY ones made from plywood. You might have to replace those 2 or 3 times before DIY ones break.
Great explanation. I was about to post the same thoughts. I work a salaried job, and I do DIY in my spare time. So my "labor cost" is how much value I put on sitting on the couch watching TV vs building some cabinets, rather than comparing it to my work-day hourly rate. For some projects I consider my labor cost as 0, since I am enjoying the process of building as much as I would any other free time activity. Cheers.
I agree Travis... I have a locker I got from my old work 25 small cubbies I was going to make into a paint and stain storage by adding 2" foam board around the sides and back. Well my current employer had a refrigerator that stopped working and I decided to get it for my paints and stains instead. I think for fun I will mark every can I have on the outside of the fridge just to give it color
Definitely an important consideration for a business, especially a small business.
The build vs buy debate is one I've been having with myself a lot recently. I moved a couple years ago into a much bigger living space and decided that I was going to buy decent quality furniture and I was willing to pay good money for it. I simply dont have the time to build a lot of things for myself. Less than 2 years later and I'm having a host of issues with stuff falling apart, particularly annoyed about the bed frame that costs over 1000 dollars being little more than a few mdf boards and is now a rickety mess.
that's a nightmare all too common. i dread it. i'm not at the point i can build a lot of this myself yet. but i get so pissed that they price the stuff like gold and what you get is a lump of wet straw, basically. they build things to fall apart so that you have to replace. consumerism/capitalism at work. our landfills weep.
Love the price point breakdown. Im buying cabinets here on out.
Dude, just sculpt them!
🤣😂🤣😂
I won't understand why people think of his as a strictly DIY channel. It is literally about "shop greatness" and that means that sometimes you buy and sometimes you DIY. So long as it is increasing the greatness of your shop, you done good!
Kitchen cabinets have been made out of repurposed sawdust forever, and they hold up for decades.
Theres a time and place for expensive cabinetry. Storing your Pringles in a warehouse probably isn’t one of them.
Love how open your channel is about everything you do ❤
And just a little bit of water and you’ll wish you never saw or used pressed board cabinets. They’re called cheep builder grade for a reason. Ask me how I know.
I already used Ikea kitchen furniture for my shop 20-odd years ago. Just bought another 3 of them a week ago. Quality I great, quick to set up and looks great.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. When you just need something done, buying is the way to go. Closet and basement storage is like that for me. I buy that stuff to save my time for the things that really matter
My business is custom furniture and cabinetry. My wife's craftroom has Ikea Kalex Shelving. Because they were actually cheaper than the materials. Buy the time saved is where they really paid off.
I think 30hours from build to install is a good estimate for simple frameless/painted cabinets.
The one thing that might hamstring the purchase is that the cabinets are not close to being as durable as the ones you would have built out of the materials listed. In a work environment things tend to be treated a little rougher, so the lifespan might break down that ROI a bit if they don't last very long. Hopefully they do but going from experience of working in a big box store that redid the breakroom with stock cabinets we sold on the shelf, you may be replacing them sooner than later.
They’re just cabinets for placing coffee mugs and lunch on - how much abuse do you think they’re going to go through?
Exactly as proven by his showing how shoddy the material was in the first place. Hamster bedding. Then he compares that to plywood cost. That's a technical foul in my book.
Buying is a solid plus when quality is not the main concern. To our community it’s all about quality and that’s why we do it. Which you acknowledge very well in your video.
Great video!
Great video. Straight to the point. No fluff. No extraneous info. Love this kind of content.
100% agreed for the use of these cabinets. Spend your time and skills making yourself grow your business and bank account.
Travis put you a walk-up snack bar in the corner you identified, a small table right in front of the bar for 2 or 3 people with another table in front of the storage closet doors?? Just a thought.... Travis, can I work for you??? I'm a hard worker, dedicated, motivated, and very team oriented!!!!😊
As my time has become more valuable over the years, I find myself doing more and more of these comparisons in my head for so many DIY (and a bit more than DIY) projects. The first few times you pay someone to do something you know you can do yourself is hard but I've finally come to the realization (and yes I realized how privileged I am to be in this position because I wasn't for a very long time) but my time not money is my most in demand and precious thing and if I can buy my time back and still come out ahead I'll do that every day... and then complain that someone didn't do as good of a job as I would, but that's my perfectionism flaring up haha.
Great post. One thing nice about building your own is you can customize size or function. I am renovating a 123 year old house, and I am still deciding on which way to go with cabinets. However this video was a big help. Thanks for sharing.
I’ve done a kitchen with professional cherry cabinets and one with Ikea prefabs. Both are great. If you assemble the prefab with glue plus the nails they provide you get sturdy cabinets that will last. Prefab assembly was one whole day, and no sawdust, building would have been at least a week and constant dust. I could build the new kitchen I’m working on from scratch, or pro, or prefab. Maybe glued prefab boxes and drawers and custom faceframes and doors?
Context is everything and I think given that these cabinets are in a corner of your shop, I totally see the value of your choice. Might not be what you want in your home, but in the corner it’s perfect.
My thought exactly.
I 100% feel this way about projects like you just did and kids room furniture. It was enlightening to me years ago when I saw Mike Farrington put together an Ikea dresser for his kids room. A master builder that truly understands the value of his own time.
I'm with you on that! When I needed to outfit my new garage I ended up ordering three sets of the Husky welded steel cabinets during one of the sales events. Each set came with a 76 inch tall cabinet, two regular ones and a wall unit, so a total of 4 pieces. The total cost for all 12 pieces was $1500 and there was no assembly required. Because when I ran the numbers for how much it would cost me to build the same thing from scratch using high quality materials it came out to just a few hundred dollars less. It also required me to be tied up for many days for no reason other than making storage for my tools when I could be using that time for making opportunities.
This might be my most favorite video of yours. Time is so often left out in our cost and value assessments. Time is perhaps more valuable than any of the materials used in the project.
Having built the upper cabinets for my workshop from your plans I had already decided to buy the lower cabinets. My decision is partly based on the fact that the lowest grade of birch ply that I can buy is B/C and birch ply is not on the shelves of big box stores. The B side comes up very nicely with hard wax oil. I will make all doors and drawer fronts from Baltic birch to match the wall cabinets.
I think less than 5% of people in the US, probably less, make enough money to be able to actually say “it was more economical to just buy them”. The top 5% of the US makes over 140k and depending on where you live and your family size 140k still isn’t that much. Not saying that this is a blanketed statement, however just simply from an economical viewpoint there aren’t many people that make that much an hour (after tax).
I too ponder this question quite often and although this comment is an oversimplification, I often find this to be a very difficult question to answer for so many people.
What you earn at your day job per hour is in no way related to the value of your time. More people need to understand this.
@@ShopNation There are many qualitative reasons, such as the value of spending time with family. I fail to see the quantitative/economical equations where this makes sense though. Most people make less money in a side gig away from their day job and there for the most they will make is during their day job. Obviously there is opportunity cost with using your time doing something that takes away from something else you are building economically. I agree with you 100% for people who are pursing something more in their free time or are full time in their own business. I guess my point was that for the vast majority of people that doesn’t apply. Maybe I am misinterpreting your comment all together though. Comment sections can be nightmare to communicate in😅
I used these in my kitchen refresh. 100% recommend them unless you need a some sort of custom size or feature you can't get off the shelf. Huge time saver and pretty decent quality if you can't be without your space for an extended period while you figure things out.
For my kitchen remodel, I chose to get Ikea cabinet bases, and then made all the doors and drawer fronts myself, so the most visible parts are custom made. However, that was 12 years ago, and I had lower skill level. At the time, I thought building my own cabinets entirely from scratch was beyond me. I'm not sure what I would decide to do now, after having built some additional cabinets entirely myself. This is my hobby and not my job, but that means I have even less time to divide up among what projects I take on.
"Compressed Hamster Bedding" 🤣🤣🤣
Great video, That is something I struggle with myself. I just bought cabinets for a small kitchenette rather than making them myself. My only counter point would be if you had customers who would see that installation when were giving a tour or something. Then you would want your craftsmanship to really stand out. That might not be the case though.
I just installed a large kitchen using these cabinets. The feet included are almost useless. Solid bases are actually quicker for a long assembled counter over a less than perfect floor. The 'quality' of the units is about what you would expect. Perfect for a rental or a beginner home , however not even close to a quality custom kitchen. If entry level cabinets are needed where cost is important then Menards is a great option.
I'm a custom cabinet maker. Not all partical boards are bad. They just decided to use a cheap version of it. There is absolutely 0 benefit from upgrading from a highly compressed partical board core HPL to a ply or MDF core HPL. In fact you may get some negative effects such as warping with a ply core.
Thanks for that insight from a pro!
Built my entire kitchen from scratch. Working on it part time took WAY too long. Not sure I would do it again. Saved a ton of money though so that’s a plus
Thanks Travis. Several thoughts to ponder. If you need it now, this is the way to go. If you are not in a hurry maybe, just maybe build it yourself. I am not the guy that has "scraps" laying around to build stuff with. I have to go to and "buy" my scraps. If you know what I mean. Over the years I have come to value your videos/advise.
I am thinking through this right now. I am finally going to build out my basement bar. I have been looking at Menards as well but at the unfinished Quality One brand. Much cheaper than those but I'd need to make some improvements. They have a lot of particle board some I'm still leery. I don't have to consider the hourly rate because I have a full time job. This is home improvement.
Hey Travis, I think you made the right decision regarding the break area. Chances are you may move to yet a bigger building someday. If and when you do, you probably won’t be taking the cabinets with you. It’s easier to leave Menards cabinets vs the ones you poured hours into. See you in the next installment.
I live in Michigan, and I love shopping at Menards! Great alternative to Lowe's or HD. And I think they have a much bigger selection of items. Seems that I can't go in there and not spend at least $50 on something that catches my eye.
Jason, Great video, my friend. I run across this dilemma a significant amount of my time. But you said it: the opportunity to learn from my mistakes and the pure frustration of doing so as they are presented. I love your videos because of your presentation and humor. Thanks for all you do for the community of builders. Felix
Listen, Stan, I’m starting to question our friendship based on the fact that a) you never send cards on my birthday and b) my name isn’t Jason
@@ShopNationTravis, talk about a significant mistake. I guess I could blame it on Spellcheck, but I don't think that will fly in this instance because that was me. My apologies, my friend.
😂👌🏼👍🏼
7:13 yup I agree sometime it’s better to buy instead of making it your self.
@ShopNation0 Hey what’s up! How’s the 3D printing going, are printing in your new facility.
Compressed hamster bedding 😂
A friend held an "Ikea cabinet assembling party." We showed up holding a crumpled cardboard sign reading "will assemble cabinets for food." They leaned a bit too heavy on a cross piece and broke it, so we repaired it for them by replacing with some real 1x4.
You have already proved to yourself that you can build cabinets. Best to use your time more wisely now
I had to subscribe just for the compressed hamster bedding comment. I picked up two pallets of cabinets from one of the box store returns sales for $900. We used them in the laundry, office, pantry and garage. I could build way better stuff even as a hobbyist but the time to do it all was the main reason besides the crazy good deal we got.
Travis, I have always watched your videos for the transparency. But I simply cannot stand for this! The people of UA-cam do not know if you factored in the 11% rebate into your overall budget! 😂😂😂
That's butter on the biscuit!
All the cabinets in my shop are the scratch and dent pre-built lowes red oak cabinets. I simply don't have time to build them
30 hours for 4 cabinets is a massive amount of time, outside of waiting for the paint to dry. A decent professional can easily put 4 cabinets together, including with drawers in under 1/2 a day.
I agree though that most people when they think of DIY saving money don’t tend to include their time; to me it depends on what the work is and who it’s for as I’ll donate my time, so to speak, for myself and some family and friends, but outside of that buying could definitely be cheaper than me making them as I bill out my time at multiple times that $20/hr rate. While I include general war and tear on my tooling in my hourly rate, which is one reason it is what it is, as I have all the needed tooling and things naturally wear out, and an expense that should always be baked into projects.
I built a custom built in for my mother with 10 cabinets each with doors and drawers along with a custom “L” limiter counter in 2 days; the counter was 3/4” plywood with a piece of 5’x10’ laminate cut down and fit over the front and the top. A big miss on the buy vs. build is longevity as the plywood and hardwood cabinets I built and you would have will be stronger and last longer than the particle board cabinets you’d buy, which even when your time is taken to account could be cheaper long term as the bought cabinets need to be replaced more frequently in a business/commercial environment then ones build from plywood; or the custom cabinets built out of plywood would simply have cost more up front than the particle board ones, leading to a different value calculation.
I was gonna say the same thing. Could you spend 30 hours... absolutely but not if your trying to be comparable in quality. I could knock out something comparable in a long day before paint. Sure, the doors and drawer faces will only look like shaker doors (1/2" MDF with 1/4" MDF strips glued to the front to look like stiles and rails) but once painted you would never know the difference; or maybe I would do everything with prefinished plywood and just do slab doors and faces (maybe even leave the exposed edges for some texture). I would probably build them as a single bank, rather than individual cabinets to save some material and time (because you don't need to move them out of the shop anyway). And pocket screws would be the extent of the joinery.
But they would be both cheaper and probably more durable than the compressed hamster bedding.
I worked at a cabinet shop for a while and we'd do full size kitchens in a day just 4 of us, usually we had 3 projects being built at the same time, once we had 7. No CNC. I would like to think I could build what he bought in 3 days including paint and install if the house was close by.
You can eliminate wood with drywall in many situations by framing it in shaker panels, or covering exposed edges with trim for a wainscoting option. It's the cheapest 4x8 material here as far as I know. IMO this would be a much bigger exaggeration of time VS money than his example. I wonder if fake wainscoting could increase a homes value lol.
I think the better argument isn't what it costs in your time... But what would your time be better spent doing.
Let's say, if you DIY, you would save $100/hr, and your normal bill rate is only $50... Seems like a no brainier; but it's not.
As a business owner, your value isn't measured by your hourly rate, but by the growth rate of the business. So while you may save the company several hundred dollars... You could have spent that time growing the business by securing a new client, or completing customer work ahead of schedule so your free to start a new customer project and get a good reputation.
By focusing on growth, rather than the bottom line, especially before you have your first few employees, will yield bigger dividends in the long run.
@@josephhfry: I can understand your point and think it can be a good view, or expansion of view. I’d say as a business owner myself in the trades shop projects/infrastructure tend to be done as time is available and when it isn’t if something is needed it’s bought, so it’s not as if doing or making something would be taking away from something else. As a person a few generations into the trades there is something to be said for longevity, something which can’t tend to be bought today, at least not for affordable prices; there are parts of my business and shop that are decades if not near a century old and still working and working well because they were built well. It isn’t always about money or what someone can do or what else they could be doing sometimes it’s just about pride in ones job or business and making things that can outlast you, of saying that’s the case here but some of us do enjoy doing things simply out of pride, irrespective of compensation or time.
Actually, I agree with this. I like to buy stock cabinets with oak fronts unfinished. That way it's a better quality wood on the front of the cabinet that I can paint or stain or whatever I want to do. I recently bought some that HD was clearancing out for 30% off. Made it a no brainer for a project I was working on. By the time I bought the wood and the drawer slides, it would have cost about the same.
I will be changing out the fronts though, I don't like them.
On another note, I think I would have picked something different for your top, the white and cream kinda clash, but OK for a shop kitchen I guess.
Being for your business, definitely the way to go. Cost of cabinets are a business expense and you have 20+ hrs available to doing profit producing work.
good video. I am a custom cabinet maker, and I am always telling people to go to Ikea for basement utility units. Don't go custom unless you can't find one off the shelf that will work.
Hiya Travis great video but change that Fridge and Water Dispenser the other way round so the Fridge is in the corner, the only way someone will see the water would be straight on as the fridge covers the view one side, while the corner wall covers the view the other side and plus it will look much better having the taller fridge in the corner.
Stay Safe,
Barry (ENG)
With the fridge against the wall the door opens into the wall, so the water dispenser acts as a natural spacer to avoid smashing your hand on the handle
@@ShopNation ok thanks for the reply, stay safe.
Barry.👍
He says time is our most prescious resource, so let's binge watch some Netflix... What a human 😆
Well said Travis! Opportunity cost is an important factor often ignored!
You opening statement. Spot on, well said, completely true!
We’re looking for cabinets in our new home. Kitchen, bathroom, utility room, even some out in the garage. Seems to me the middle ground that’s missing from the market is higher end DIY.
I’d love to see flat pack versions of very simple 1/2” and 3/4” plywood cabinets. We’d be willing to assemble, install hardware and paint. Even better, make them modular and interoperable with other ecosystems out there and you pick up a ton of customization.
I’m just looking for some options for Euro cabinets between a few k for hamsterboard or $20-30k for full custom or DIY for frameless cabinets.
I know exactly what you mean. I even bought your cabinet plans to make my own for the shop. Then I went and bought a cheap set at Menards. ROI just wasn't there to make them myself.
I just made my own shop cabinets, I couldn't imagine being satisfied with particle board equivalents, no matter what my time is valued at. That said, they still aren't painted, so there's that aspect! Once things get usable, they get used instead of finished around here.
I found Menards to be weird when I lived in Michigan. They always had the most random selection of inventory. It was always an adventure going to find something. 😂
For a big box home improvement store, Menards has some of the best material in my opinion especially when you take into consideration it is just a big box store.
Awesome idea for a video and great commentary! Ive been watching since 15k followers and your content keeps getting better. Keep up the good work!
In a business environment your cost calculation makes sense. For a hobbiest, I don’t think it does. I think the question is if you aren’t fabricating X, what else would you be doing. If the answer is watching TV or playing Xbox then fabricating X yourself is likely a more cost effective option. If it’s playing with the kids or going on a date with your spouse and buying X from Menards vs making X yourself the answer might be different. Or if you really want X and just can’t afford it but have the free time to makes some that vaguely resembles X then that’s a different answer. It’s more about how you choose to spend your time and money and less about the theoretical monetary value of your labor.
Well said, yes I agree!
Makes perfect sense to me.
I would have done a refrigerator panel & cabinet above the fridge for more space don't forget your countertop end cap kit 🤷🏼♂️🤙🏼
Looks like you made the right choice for your situation. Doubt you can afford to lose a week of productivity with your business, while not the highest quality, those cabinets will serve their purpose just fine.
Today on how I pursue shop greatness, I put together ikea cabinets because my time is better spent literally making a video of me using a screwgun while giving a cursory lesson on opportunity costs with guitar power cord sounds in the background, cuz I know I’ll make more money from sponsors and views no matter what content I put out. Dollars and hours saved are dollars and hours earned!! You go pursue “shop greatness”.
Do you feel better now?
@@ShopNation meh, it was off the cuff before bed. Nice video and good idea, just not shop nation/greatness. If you’re western channel showed muppets you’d probably say something similar. Expecting John Wayne and you get Elmo.
Excellent comment there at the end! Love your channel. Love the content. Learned a lot. Good luck in the new space.
Used to be in the fitted furniture industry, in UK 80& 90’s. Can honestly say IKEA kitchen cabinets are 1st rate. They use the very best hinge hardware. 19mm sheets materials.
My dad swopped to using them rather than make his own for standard cabinets.
Had a similar experience when I moved house and need to urgently complete a laundry reno.
Being in Australia our wood prices are higher and ikea just turned out cheaper, the biggest thing though was that it needed to be done fast and I already had a bunch of things I was doing sometimes we have to sallow our pride and just get the job done.
I bought those exact cabinets for my kitchen last year and they were horrible. First of all, Menards missed a lot of my order so I was always running back and forth to the store to pick up the parts of my order that they didn't put on the pallet. On more than one occasion, I opened the box to find the wrong type/color of drawer or door front - back to Menards I went. My biggest gripe with these cabinets is the hinges. I couldn't get the doors to line up to save my life. The cabinet boxes were perfectly level and plumb but the doors wouldn't line up. The hinges are supposed to be adjustable but most of the hinges had screws that just wouldn't turn no matter how hard I tried turning them. I managed to get the doors to look acceptable by re-drilling new screw holes to re-hang the hinges from but they still weren't perfectly aligned and every time I went into the kitchen, it bugged me. Finally, the boxes aren't the same color as the door/drawer fronts so I had to put that colored tape on the front of every single box and I had a big kitchen. That took forever and I could never get the tape to line up correctly. The cabinets looked and felt cheap. The sides of the drawers are sloped which felt like wasted space to me. I also didn't like the linen color of the interiors. They might be fine cabinets for a garage or shop but not for a kitchen. Anyways, I sold that house and am about to start a kitchen reno in my new house. This time, I'm going with the RTA plywood cabinets from Home Depot. They are cheaper than the Klearvue Cabinets but are better built and they will deliver them right to my house.
You kind of mentioned it a bit toward the end I think, but you always have to consider whether the time you would spend DIY-ing anything is if it's actually costing you money. Like I'm salaried, not hourly. So if in a week I spend 40 hours at my job and 20 building cabinets, NOT spending 20 hours building cabinets and working 60 hours at my job doesn't actually net me any more money. Plus I enjoy it. That's actually been my life for the last couple of weeks building some shop cabinets nights and weekends - I'm stupid slow at it! But if I could be using that time for something I'd actually get paid for, then the calculation becomes tougher. Not just in terms of raw money, but also the intangible cost of how much is the enjoyment worth that I lost in not building it myself? Ultimately it's a very personal calculation and it sounds like you made the right call for your situation.
If i was paid 600 bucks to build that in 30 hours, I'd be on the boat fishing for 10 of them ... letting the paint dry.
Scandinavian here, I got a good laugh from the Klëarvūe logo! Neither ë nor ū are Scandinavia letters, and the words themselves are closer to English and... French, maybe?
It did give a kind of Scandinavian vibe though, I'll give them that😅
Dang, fooled this dumb American!
Suggest factor in consumables: screws, tool wear, etc adds up too.
I think in this instance it totally makes sense to buy them however I think it’s an unfair comparison. You mentioned that the quality would be much higher if you built them so I think for an honest comparison it would only be fair to compare to the cost of cabinets that are the same quality as ones you could make. I think the numbers would be closer, but I still appreciate the time to break it down!
Good video showing the pro's and cons on your project. For myself personally, I would have built them, reason being, investing in a miter saw, table saw, circular saw, drill/driver, etc. etc. to collect dust would have tripped the wife aggro button. She finds out I spent double on the cabinets when I have tools to make them, that's less money for her shoe collection, not going to end well 😊😊
Aww man, compressed hamster bedding just isn't what it used to be. Great video, I like how tight and to the point it is, and of course how you always do such a good job with researching your options.
That one made me LOL.
So, there is a third alternative. Build the cabinets, and order premade doors. Better built cabinets, and comercial doors, price somewhere in-between.
Such a great point! Can cut down big time on the build
😂. Love the closing statement!!!! Funny 😄. Well placed in your monologue.
I find this buy vs build topic quite interesting. Im a cabinet maker so for me it's obvious to make rather than buy. Not because of time, this job should be about 10hrs, but because the hardware on the flat pack cabinets (here in New Zealand) is trash!!! And thats the thing that would annoy me in use of the kitchenette day to day. The board construction, Ply,Particular or MDF isn't something I would probably ever notice. But trash hardware thats always out of adjustment, that would drive me insane. Perhaps it already has? Ha
Keep up the good content👍
It just comes down to a simple question. What do you have more of, time or money? I get that time is money ... but it's only money if the time spent would equate to money lost, instead of more time to waste (as alluded to in the Netflix comment lol). Just think, you could have made a longer video or even made a series if you built them yourself ... glad you didn't take this route with your outdoor "shed". lol
That’s what I was afraid of! 😂 spot on about your first point though
I have a place for my snacks now!!!
Not everyone can just randomly work more hours. Marginal after-tax income might be a lot lower for a lot of people.
Comparing pre-built particle board cabinets with DIY plywood ones... yeah, why? Why not use melamine panels? That cuts down on the cost quickly. Solid wood for the toekick? Why? Place it further back and you will kick it 99% less. Also; don't let the side panel cut into the toespace.
Pre built or diy still gotta scribe round the pipes
Good video though sometimes we forget about the labour time and just add up the materials and see only the savings
You trade labor for quality, but for a hobbyist like yourself your right just buy them. We cabinet makers use the right tools for the job, makes it efficient and easy. For that same quality I have pre programs for my CNC.
This is probably one of my favorite videos you've done Jason! Don't listen to the haters. Keep putting out the good content brother.
His name is Travis. Jason is on another channel.
@@richardrodgers1883 nah man. I know this guy personally.
This guy is funny
@@ShopNation couldn't help myself. I saw your Instagram reel and thought I'd join in on the fun 😂
Another thing to consider, some folks have more time than they do money. So even if they value their time high enough where the 'buy' option is actually better, they may not have the cash but have the time. Or put another way, all else being equal, you can convert your time into dollars spent on a fun tool instead
Appreciate your perspective. Helpful to hear. Always look forward to your content. Thank you!
There are different levels of RTA cabinets as well. I'm in the process of doing my kitchen. Quality plywood RTA cabinets. They will last and save on time. Everything has a price point and balance.
Here in South Africa all our kitchen cabinets and closets are made with chip board.