Since the original filming of this one, I've been playing this more and more with single odds on the 4 and 10 and between 2x and 3x on the 5/9 (depending) and sticking to max on the 6/8. I find that the 4 and 10 still don't pay frequently enough to warrant (from my bankroll) max odds, but do deserve a little bit of love. Try playing this from the Don't Pass and using some of your Come wins to fund odds on your Don't. Rack the original, Rack some profit, and stack up the lay bet down there. That works pretty well!
You have to consider/acknowledge the payment the next come bet offers if there is a short roll before a second number is repeated. It's an total loss for both up top but the last come bet pays even money and acts as a sort of rebate on the loss up top. I know it isn't perfect but it is a bit of a hedge. If there are a lot of point seven outs, the come bettor gets to hang around a little longer.
Like most Craps players, cut my teeth on the 3-point Molly. You're right, the sustainability of this system is a poor gamble. Your transition to Place bets is a very good play, and Bravo for showing how winnings are gauged by replenishing your Buy-in first. The bigger winnings come in 'Pressing' the advantage when the dice are right. The Don't Come option is nice when they are Dark. Well Done Sir!
Nice video John. You are getting smoother and smoother. FYI: At about the 30:39 mark you rolled a six and had a don't Come bet on that should have moved to the six. I know you are shooting for perfection but, I'm sure UA-cam loves all interaction and comments. I love the come bets and it is a fun way for me to play. Keep up the great work! You are putting out a lot of content compared to a lot of other folks on UA-cam. And unlike the craps table, hard work always pays dividends in the long run! Best wishes always! Jim
Thank for finding that mistake. You end up having to deal and count and think and talk and something goes sideways ... these videos are cut from a live stream, so it's one-take. I appreciate the kind words, Professor!
I ran this strategy 10 times using $500 bankroll with a loss/win cutoff of 40%. I was down $32 after Two straight hours of rolling. That’s probably 5 hours at the table. Risk is high and short rolls are volatile to the bankroll. Very interesting though. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
No strategy can last 2 (or 5) hours, especially one with this kind of outlay. Did you have some good runs in there? Any major holes you found as you worked the longer session? I’m doing some thinking about limits on the number of active bets per shooter and a max set of times to keep it rolling.
Three good runs with profits of 35%; 39%, and 50%. Two bad loses because the five times odds number didn’t hit before big red and I chased it to make up the loss. Without those two, I would have made money after 10 rounds. Wins/loses we’re about even. Most loses were less than 15%. An early 7 is a killer for any strategy but when your putting up odds for the 5,6, and 8 and 7 comes before any hits…ouch! I did find it difficult to avoid the 7 after profiting on the three come bets and spreading the profits across the board. The 7 was always near as you would be in 6-7 rolls to make profit and recover your investment. Thanks for thinking.
Since spreading the profits on the numbers really didn’t pay off for me, I wonder if once you place all three numbers and hit a paying 6 or 8 if it is worth placing another come bet? The 4 and 10 bets were a waste but what can you do.
VERY interesting strategy as I can see if you're able to win those 3 Come bets and then reinvest back to the place numbers after getting that initial profit, this has the potential for HUGE profits!
Just as an aside; I would suggest that the COME area is larger as it is in essence the "foyer" to a Place Bet. If you have multiple players dropping chips to get up on the box numbers, they have to wait somewhere. While fun to suggest it is a design conspiracy, I doubt that is the case ;)
There's definitely something to the way that Casinos lay things out, make certain things bigger, smaller (or, in the case of free odds, not existent on the table at all!) ... but that doesn't change the fact that the Come is still one of the better bets from an edge and math perspective that there is in the game.
@@ProCraps Yes, and while maximizing Odds bets can’t be faulted, the nearer they bring you to a “no juice” game, dice bettors are too often perilously undercapitalized while making those giant odds bets. The bosses and pit crew are well aware of this. Gambler’s ruin is of course a fate the house never shares, because of its ever replenishing bankroll. In this light, its 3x-4x-5x schema can be viewed with jaundiced eye.
PASS/COME bets can win 8 ways and only lose 4 ways on their comeout. That comeout 2-1 W/L advantage is what you're paying for by having more "money at risk" early on vs pressing up a smaller place bet. Come bets that travel do require a box number to hit twice, but short trends and streaks are the norm. The "math" doesn't recognize the benefit of how the traveled pass/come bet often puts you on an actively hitting (warm or hot) box number.
I've always considered it false reasoning to say that the come bet that travels has to hit twice to win. For example, on the come out roll you don't need an 8 at all. You don't need an 8 to win until after an 8 has already hit so you never need more than a single 8 to win.
@@aebalc exactly - the whole point of the Come bet is to hope for a 7/11 obviously an 11 is preferred (for me, using the Come is a hedge for my Pass Line bet that was travelled to 4/5/6/8/9 or 10). Anything other than a 7 or 11 on your Come bet and you are at a disadvantage (with 2/3/12 being catastrophic) as you’re forced to put your Come bet into a contract on the 4/5/6/8/9 or 10 with the likelihood of the next roll being a 7. My strategy is to avoid placing any units anywhere on the table except the Pass Line or Come (not exciting but it’s a defensive strategy that doesn’t wipe out a lot of units when Big Red hits and allows hours of play minimizing loses). If I was forced to play Craps, I would put my whole bankroll on the Pass Line and hope for a 7/11 - anything else is losing.
Generally, when I'm in a Come strategy like this, I keep letting them roll on through. But absolutely taking the come wins and turning those into placebets is an awesome transition. I do that quite often from the Horseman but not as often from this one. Probably because of the odds.
I use a similar come strategy without odds to initally build gravy. This gives me one unit at risk till I get 3 no’s. Then I go with a DC bet equal to max odds on the three points. Next bet is to place max odds on all 3 no’s. Then my only fear is the point that the DC bet is on. Looks extremely aggressive but is pretty conservative.
I generally keep the dollar amounts of my Odds bets old school uniform, eschewing House Conformity to any 3/4/5 scheme or the like. Be realistic. How often do you see Sixes and Eights actually conform to expectation in the short term? Often I see outside numbers do a repeating cakewalk, meanwhile neither six nor eight so much as puts in an appearance. That casino dice offer fantastic opportunities-thru short term luck-is reason enough NOT to *favor* particular box points, when funding Odds bet units. Better you should properly capitalize, and scale your desired action for Come bets (as with other types of action). ..Whether that should mean scaling to session buy-in (with that in turn determined by overall bankroll), by varying the size of distinct flats, or in deliberately REFRAINING from any Law Of Averages- based (Six/Eight) *favortism* (over 5/9, or 4/10), or so I believe. To each his own, I suppose.
I hear you. I'm just doing my best to try and put more money behind the more likely events and less behind the lesser likelihood events. I know that we can't predict or beat the game that way (or any way), but it's the smartest play for the bankroll that I feel we can make.
If we're getting paid, then yes, I try and keep 3 of them going at all times, unless I'm at my win goal, of course. Then I'll let whatever I have active resolve themselves and color up.
I think I would keep the ratio the same, but probably go up. I believe that the amount of odds you take on come bets (or lay on Don't bets) are amazing because they are paid pure. And at a 10x table you can really take advantage of that for sure. However, it's very much tied to bankroll for most people. In the example from today, I had only a $600 bankroll. Were I at a 10x table, the odds on the 6 would have been $250, and on the 9, I would have probably put up $90 or $120 ... that would basically cooked my entire rack. Great when it wins, but potentially a session ender a loss. You have have a well endowed bankroll to play "right" at a 10x table for sure.
Sorry, but that's how I do things on the "Explanation" videos. About 10-15 minutes explaining the why and the how and the theory before a short rollout. I've got loads of other videos where I roll these things out live for an hour or more. But these intro videos are done this way to show folks the thinking behind some of these things. Not everyone in the audience is ready to just have an immediate roll out, so I provide both types of videos, usually.
I know. I get talking too quick and I’ll say those in reverse all the time. I try and correct myself when I catch it. Thanks for being to tuned in. Means a lot.
@@ProCraps I am really enjoying your videos and breaking down the different strategies. I also watch Sin City Living and Color Up. My wife and I had dinner with Jeremy in Reno last month.
Since the original filming of this one, I've been playing this more and more with single odds on the 4 and 10 and between 2x and 3x on the 5/9 (depending) and sticking to max on the 6/8. I find that the 4 and 10 still don't pay frequently enough to warrant (from my bankroll) max odds, but do deserve a little bit of love.
Try playing this from the Don't Pass and using some of your Come wins to fund odds on your Don't. Rack the original, Rack some profit, and stack up the lay bet down there. That works pretty well!
You have to consider/acknowledge the payment the next come bet offers if there is a short roll before a second number is repeated. It's an total loss for both up top but the last come bet pays even money and acts as a sort of rebate on the loss up top. I know it isn't perfect but it is a bit of a hedge. If there are a lot of point seven outs, the come bettor gets to hang around a little longer.
Like most Craps players, cut my teeth on the 3-point Molly. You're right, the sustainability of this system is a poor gamble. Your transition to Place bets is a very good play, and Bravo for showing how winnings are gauged by replenishing your Buy-in first. The bigger winnings come in 'Pressing' the advantage when the dice are right. The Don't Come option is nice when they are Dark.
Well Done Sir!
Thanks, Robert. I’m always working on ways to transition. I’m a pretty firm believer that standing pat is a long term killer!
Sorry I missed this premiere. I really liked this twist. Great production quality as usual!
Nice video John. You are getting smoother and smoother. FYI: At about the 30:39 mark you rolled a six and had a don't Come bet on that should have moved to the six. I know you are shooting for perfection but, I'm sure UA-cam loves all interaction and comments. I love the come bets and it is a fun way for me to play. Keep up the great work! You are putting out a lot of content compared to a lot of other folks on UA-cam. And unlike the craps table, hard work always pays dividends in the long run! Best wishes always! Jim
Thank for finding that mistake. You end up having to deal and count and think and talk and something goes sideways ... these videos are cut from a live stream, so it's one-take. I appreciate the kind words, Professor!
This one has my attention, I will have to roll it out, might make a few changes .... may be your best yet!
I ran this strategy 10 times using $500 bankroll with a loss/win cutoff of 40%. I was down $32 after Two straight hours of rolling. That’s probably 5 hours at the table. Risk is high and short rolls are volatile to the bankroll. Very interesting though. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
No strategy can last 2 (or 5) hours, especially one with this kind of outlay. Did you have some good runs in there? Any major holes you found as you worked the longer session? I’m doing some thinking about limits on the number of active bets per shooter and a max set of times to keep it rolling.
Three good runs with profits of 35%; 39%, and 50%. Two bad loses because the five times odds number didn’t hit before big red and I chased it to make up the loss. Without those two, I would have made money after 10 rounds. Wins/loses we’re about even. Most loses were less than 15%. An early 7 is a killer for any strategy but when your putting up odds for the 5,6, and 8 and 7 comes before any hits…ouch! I did find it difficult to avoid the 7 after profiting on the three come bets and spreading the profits across the board. The 7 was always near as you would be in 6-7 rolls to make profit and recover your investment. Thanks for thinking.
Since spreading the profits on the numbers really didn’t pay off for me, I wonder if once you place all three numbers and hit a paying 6 or 8 if it is worth placing another come bet? The 4 and 10 bets were a waste but what can you do.
I like this this strat, better then what I have been doing with my come bets , just having to many out there, thanks
It's pretty stout. You'll like the Odds Maker too. That one's kinda boring but it just grinds out the wins.
Great video brother!
VERY interesting strategy as I can see if you're able to win those 3 Come bets and then reinvest back to the place numbers after getting that initial profit, this has the potential for HUGE profits!
Yea. It did great on our Daily Paycheck series as well. I think it went 18-5 or something like that.
Just as an aside; I would suggest that the COME area is larger as it is in essence the "foyer" to a Place Bet. If you have multiple players dropping chips to get up on the box numbers, they have to wait somewhere. While fun to suggest it is a design conspiracy, I doubt that is the case ;)
There's definitely something to the way that Casinos lay things out, make certain things bigger, smaller (or, in the case of free odds, not existent on the table at all!) ... but that doesn't change the fact that the Come is still one of the better bets from an edge and math perspective that there is in the game.
@@ProCraps Yes, and while maximizing Odds bets can’t be faulted, the nearer they bring you to a “no juice” game, dice bettors are too often perilously undercapitalized while making those giant odds bets. The bosses and pit crew are well aware of this.
Gambler’s ruin is of course a fate the house never shares, because of its ever replenishing bankroll.
In this light, its 3x-4x-5x schema can be viewed with jaundiced eye.
Great video. I play the 3 Point Molly and this is a good alternative to play.
Thanks for that. I like taking it into a slightly different direction and the safer play earlier in the process for sure.
@@ProCraps are you on Discord? Definitely going to start following your page. I just stumbled on it and I am glad I did. Great content
@@Box2wire Yep. Head to casinogaming.tv and the discord invite link is there on the home page. I'm also in the Color Up discord and a few others.
PASS/COME bets can win 8 ways and only lose 4 ways on their comeout. That comeout 2-1 W/L advantage is what you're paying for by having more "money at risk" early on vs pressing up a smaller place bet. Come bets that travel do require a box number to hit twice, but short trends and streaks are the norm. The "math" doesn't recognize the benefit of how the traveled pass/come bet often puts you on an actively hitting (warm or hot) box number.
I've always considered it false reasoning to say that the come bet that travels has to hit twice to win. For example, on the come out roll you don't need an 8 at all. You don't need an 8 to win until after an 8 has already hit so you never need more than a single 8 to win.
@@aebalc exactly - the whole point of the Come bet is to hope for a 7/11 obviously an 11 is preferred (for me, using the Come is a hedge for my Pass Line bet that was travelled to 4/5/6/8/9 or 10).
Anything other than a 7 or 11 on your Come bet and you are at a disadvantage (with 2/3/12 being catastrophic) as you’re forced to put your Come bet into a contract on the 4/5/6/8/9 or 10 with the likelihood of the next roll being a 7.
My strategy is to avoid placing any units anywhere on the table except the Pass Line or Come (not exciting but it’s a defensive strategy that doesn’t wipe out a lot of units when Big Red hits and allows hours of play minimizing loses).
If I was forced to play Craps, I would put my whole bankroll on the Pass Line and hope for a 7/11 - anything else is losing.
Thanks for this idea John. Can you tell me more about why you don’t bet quarters on the place bets after the come hits?
Generally, when I'm in a Come strategy like this, I keep letting them roll on through. But absolutely taking the come wins and turning those into placebets is an awesome transition. I do that quite often from the Horseman but not as often from this one. Probably because of the odds.
I use a similar come strategy without odds to initally build gravy. This gives me one unit at risk till I get 3 no’s. Then I go with a DC bet equal to max odds on the three points. Next bet is to place max odds on all 3 no’s. Then my only fear is the point that the DC bet is on. Looks extremely aggressive but is pretty conservative.
I like that ... I have one kinda like that where I do that in reverse -- 2 DC's followed by the Comes. So the 7 is strong for you all the time.
@@ProCraps Good thought.....i just hate having two DC numbers in one game. Seems to greatly reduce winning odds...
I generally keep the dollar amounts of my Odds bets old school uniform, eschewing House Conformity to any 3/4/5 scheme or the like.
Be realistic. How often do you see Sixes and Eights actually conform to expectation in the short term?
Often I see outside numbers do a repeating cakewalk, meanwhile neither six nor eight so much as puts in an appearance.
That casino dice offer fantastic opportunities-thru short term luck-is reason enough NOT to *favor* particular box points, when funding Odds bet units.
Better you should properly capitalize, and scale your desired action for Come bets (as with other types of action). ..Whether that should mean scaling to session buy-in (with that in turn determined by overall bankroll), by varying the size of distinct flats, or in deliberately REFRAINING from any Law Of Averages- based (Six/Eight) *favortism* (over 5/9, or 4/10), or so I believe.
To each his own, I suppose.
I hear you. I'm just doing my best to try and put more money behind the more likely events and less behind the lesser likelihood events. I know that we can't predict or beat the game that way (or any way), but it's the smartest play for the bankroll that I feel we can make.
Hello, love the vids and info.
I was wondering where you purchase the craps Felt? Thank u
I got it from casinosupply.com ... they're awesome to work with, and the "Max" felt is really high quality.
Thank you
If you collect on a come bet before you get 3 set up, do you still keep come betting UNTIL you have 3 working simultaneously?
If we're getting paid, then yes, I try and keep 3 of them going at all times, unless I'm at my win goal, of course. Then I'll let whatever I have active resolve themselves and color up.
John at 30:40 you rolled a six. Why you didn't move the $5 DC behind the 6?
Yeah, there’s times I just go a little to fast.
@@ProCraps Ok thanks, thought I missed something being a newer player.
If you're at a 10x odds table, would you change the amount of odds?
I think I would keep the ratio the same, but probably go up.
I believe that the amount of odds you take on come bets (or lay on Don't bets) are amazing because they are paid pure. And at a 10x table you can really take advantage of that for sure.
However, it's very much tied to bankroll for most people.
In the example from today, I had only a $600 bankroll. Were I at a 10x table, the odds on the 6 would have been $250, and on the 9, I would have probably put up $90 or $120 ... that would basically cooked my entire rack.
Great when it wins, but potentially a session ender a loss. You have have a well endowed bankroll to play "right" at a 10x table for sure.
Screwed up at 31 minutes.
I screw up all the time! I generally do the videos in one take so we are accountable, but you end up with a few mess ups.
place better exposed PSO to a greater degree
Too much talking. He talked about his system for 17 minutes before he rolled the dice for the first time to SHOW us the system!
Sorry, but that's how I do things on the "Explanation" videos. About 10-15 minutes explaining the why and the how and the theory before a short rollout. I've got loads of other videos where I roll these things out live for an hour or more. But these intro videos are done this way to show folks the thinking behind some of these things. Not everyone in the audience is ready to just have an immediate roll out, so I provide both types of videos, usually.
You don't lay odds on a Come bet.
I know. I get talking too quick and I’ll say those in reverse all the time. I try and correct myself when I catch it. Thanks for being to tuned in. Means a lot.
@@ProCraps I am really enjoying your videos and breaking down the different strategies.
I also watch Sin City Living and Color Up. My wife and I had dinner with Jeremy in Reno last month.