"There is no reality which is not symbolic. The nature of our existence in the world is symbolic. Events coalesce around centres of meaning, through our Attention and our Memory. We all experience this constantly, and if one is attentive, what it does is it makes the world a magical place" - Jonathan Pageau
@strieko Jesus Christ is not a historical figure you never existed history lies I promise you that there is no historical proof for Jesus no foundation nothing
@strieko Jesus Christ =666 Messiah =666 Look how nasty prideful and pigheaded and horrible people are who follow the Bible to those who don’t believe the lies they believe the Bible is a weapon of mass destruction that has destroyed this earth only the weak minded believe it And I was one of them until I decided to think for myself and seek the truth many blessings
Mr. Pageau, it is an understatement to say that many young people who grew up in The Church but were inculcated by the public school system and modern-day media sources desperately NEED to be awakened to the type of wisdom displayed in your video. Your view not only offers an alternative perception to the black and white view of many Church sects, but more importantly I think it renews a sort of intrigue that many have lost when reading/thinking about The Bible.
@@hues- inculcate (ĭn-kŭlˈkātˌ, ĭnˈkŭl-) v. To impress (something) upon the mind of another by frequent instruction or repetition; instill: inculcating sound principles. v. To teach (others) by frequent instruction or repetition; indoctrinate: inculcate the young with a sense of duty.
I agree. Many Christians attack Peterson for even suggesting symbolic interpretation of the Bible at all. And I understand their fears. But they completely miss that Peterson is capable of getting atheists to read the Bible and follow Christian morality... they are fearing that he’s trying to rewrite the Bible basically. That’s not what he does though. It’s frustrating hearing Christians tell me Peterson is a Charlatan and a fraud when he’s why I came back to Christ.
Every time I listen to Jonathan, I am so moved, so edified, so encouraged! I'm a new catechumen in the Orthodox Church and I am simply blown away! How exciting that here, now, in my 67th year on earth, I am truly comfortable regarding my Christian beginning and ending, and I can say truthfully, life is good!
@@cbogue418 feel you. all these questions are floating around me constantly. Johnathon gave some wonderful insight but in my opinion he kinda skirted around them in a "no, but yes" way ah well
@7LayerOscillator There is a saying you will see floating around about the Eucharist: Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real. Protestants believe it is symbolic. Orthodox Christians believe that it is real *because* it is symbolic. Don't give up trying to understand. I feel you are close. I will pray for you, and the 4 people that liked your comment. ❤️☦️
@@jesh879 ..well not quite; Catholics and Orthodox believe it IS real but also symbolic. saying the Orthodox 'believe that it is real because it is symbolic' is dangerous as it's too vague and could lead to misunderstanding but I feel you are close.
did Jonathan answer though? the Eternal Son WAS Incarnate of the All Holy Virgin in a moment of time and truly lived, was crucified and Rose again. things can be real and symbolic.
Fractals of the cosmic intelligence that we call god. Made in his image. Made to experience his creation and gain wisdom only to again unite and add to the cosmic library with the cosmic father at the time we die. Our light and energy transform, then be reborn again to continue the process in an ever-expanding wisdom gathering loop. Or at least that's what I currently believe. We are a fractal part of God.
Incredible - loved this so much. As someone raised catholic, then fundementalist, then atheist, to now returning to the symbolism inside Christianity this verbalizes the ways symbolism is actually more true, more potent and eternal that a brief moment of personal reality. Well done analysis.
As a former hyper-rationalist atheist, I've been trying to get my spiritual mind oriented for the last year or so with Jordan Peterson at the helm of the ship. Your channel definitely seems like the next deep dive for me, as there is an absolutely unfortunate dearth of this kind of content in the mainstream. Thank you for making these videos. They do not go unappreciated.
If you are looking for faith that is based upon REASON you are on the right track. And I think you would really appreciate my book "The Holy Grail is Found."
That's awesome you're on a spiritual path brother. Maybe rethink who is at the "helm of the ship" though. Just something I'm going through myself. I keep trying to let others tell me how to think or what I should be doing. I just started owning my beliefs and actions myself. Believe what you want, but own it.
So weird, yeah I'm in a similar position now. I've always had a strong sense of morality and thought it was because of my upbringing and ability to reason. I reasoned that I wanted to survive and others to survive, well to thrive really, be free and have good lives so my sense of morality is based about that, at least so I thought? I have been ardently atheist all my life pretty much, thinking that all Christian thought of God as a literal sky daddy (as I mockingly referred to the phenomenon) who would smite you if you don't placate yourself pathetically in front of him like a snivelling slimy and blindly loyal henchman for a war lord. This image was worsened by the horrific things this (literal, at least that was how I thought others thought and some do) person in the sky did, send plagues, screw people over as a bet, murder children through excruciating diseases. Then I came across peterson, consumed all his lectures and have been reading maps of meaning and just wow. So I have come to think that my morality is based in immersion in Judeo-Christian culture, reflected in my parents values, reason (I reason that being moral and wanting the best for myself and others will bring that about if I act that way) and most importantly in literature and movies, particularly fantasy and mythology. They are abstracted forms of behaviour (over immense spans of time), acting out how you should or should not behave in order to find meaning, be successful and in general be a good person Symbolism always fascinated me, why dragons would show up in every culture in the world, what an object represented to people metaphorical. So I don't know what to call myself anymore? Atheist, a theist? And I certainly don't want to be in the same boat as the people who believe in God as a literal non-human person with immense superpowers (though I sort of get how that might be useful???, But dangerous too), so my morality per se has not been perceptively altered, but layers have been removed from my vision, so I can 'see' more perspectives of the world. More importantly how and why I should act. so weird
You might like Fr Richard Rohr, Karen Armstrong's 'A History of God', and if you want to go deep into some medieval theology, Lovejoy's classic, 'The Great Chain of Being'.
Just as God told Elijah when he went into hiding from Jezebel: (Note: I know the context deals with persecution, but God has still set Biblically grounded pastors, preachers, teachers, etc. in the world to learn from.) 1 Kings 19:9-18 NASB Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [10] He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [11] So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. [12] After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. [13] When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [14] Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [15] The LORD said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus, and when you have arrived, you shall anoint Hazael king over Aram; [16] and Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. [17] It shall come about, the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael, Jehu shall put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha shall put to death. [18] Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him." Romans 1:14-17 NASB I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. [15] So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Wow. I am not (yet) a Christian. I'm watching video's like this and trying to get a better understanding. And this video was tremendously helpful. The idea that the Bible has compressed events and meaning is not something I considered before. Thank you.
Christ challenges you to sacrifice yourself, to yourself, to the world, and to God, like He did. He wants you to walk in His steps and the steps of the saints. Will you answer the call?
My introduction to symbolism was something I noticed about Jesus. He speaks in parables, and the Bible is full of stories, so I concluded that God teaches us through the stories of the Bible and even Jesus didn't interpret it at face value. This was after I realized that the running theme of literal interpretations of Christianity is not compatible with my view of reality.
Intriguing do you think that Jesus is God flesh incarnate? Or do you think that is symbolic as in a way that we are all apart of god. Also do you think us being a part of God is just a symbolism way of saying that we have a soul?
@@rushpatriot2866 both and one cannot be without the other, because reality is not merely physical, think about it this way, what is the "realist" thing in a Darwinian sense, it is not the animals that changed over time but it that which selects, but that which selects is not physically real but none the less the realist thing, one connot be without the other.
I have been following you for a while, but since I have been looking into church, fathers and orthodoxy, I have come to realize how absolutely brilliant you are. You are truly a gift. The veil is lifted and you are such a big part of that for me. Thank you very much.
I am very happy to have finally found this video, Jonathan! You have done humanity a tremendous service here. You have finally made it possible for me to bridge the term "symbol." Though I have been studying the works of Dr. Jung for 3 decades, which is almost entirely about symbolism, no where have I found such a succinct and important discussion of why a symbol is important until I viewed this video. You definitely have earned the notoriety you are beginning to receive, and I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. I am planning to add this video to one of my own playlists, which spotlights the work of others, and I will mention it in our Group meeting this evening.
Jonathan, I know you must have felt the Spirit in you strong this night. That was an incredibly powerful flow of wisdom that was obviously free flowing not from your willing. It reminded me of a person freestyle rapping in a flow state. Wow. Thank you for reminding me that there are more dimensions of being and reality seeking expression than the purely scientific lens our current culture is infatuated with. Some moments in some days I feel a profound connection to the current moment and a deep connection with being. Colors are more vivid, my emotions are heightened, sound are sharper, and I know that God is acting through me by the power of his presence inside me...Thank you for the reminder my brother.
I started to go to my church ( also Ortodox) two years ago, before that I knew very little about my religion and I almost never vent there. Now I am attending services regularly and learning more and more, and I am so happy to be there. Your videos have been very helpful to me and I like your channel. Thank you very,very much!!! 💙💙💙
Well dreams are of a different realm. The same realm of which I think our imagination and thought process comes from. It's really interesting that we can think like we do inside our minds without seeing it with our own eyes. It's very simple and in my opinion a good explanation on what's more going on. Too science imagination and consciousness is anomaly that can be explained. Just like how science cant explain what happens after death. So in my opinion consciousness is a spirtual happening that is constant within our mind. We know what dmt is but we dont understand how it works and yet it's in all of us and releases when we die. Very interesting.
@@rushpatriot2866 DMT has been shown to be released when mice die, but not with humans. Still an intriguing theory; I do believe our consciousness is something supernatural and continues to live past our physical deaths.
that's why "symbol" and "devil" are absolute antonyms, which is something that modern people often fail to understand, both intellectually and in practice.
Thank you. I was stating the obvious that we often miss. Is there a way of contacting you through email, I am not sure if youtube still has that "inbox".
This way of understanding the Bible grew my faith. Through you and Jordan Peterson I’ve let go of my lifelong pursuit to understand all the technical details of the Bible stories and my need to know of things “actually” happened. I’ve had seeds of these ideas for years, but they were never fleshed out, and I never had words for them until I discovered you two. Thank you for sharing this.
I was just discussing about transubstantiation with my Christian Friend after communion; the metaphysical meeting the physical is a really a mundane event that happens all the time. Now coming to Orthodox Christianity it's a symbolic world? Now THAT's a fascinating idea
Oh for real. A few weeks ago I read Genesis and wept. The whole 'knowledge of good and evil' leading to suffering and death, and then the 'and the woman will have pains in birth' and then the migration / banishment scene. I mean, it is truly profound.
This has become one of my favorite videos. I come back from time to time just to rewatch it. I had kind of similar view on symbolism, but this video articulated and expanded upon it perfectly.
I have listened to this several times. I don't think I am smart enough to be Orthodox, but have faith I am learning. I feel like it is mind bending and I am not that kind of thinker naturally. Lord have mercy on my concrete thinking... I do love this gift of Orthodoxy!
4:51 Attention 5:40 Memory: string of coherence 6:53 Rambling 7:28 Orthodox Church ⛪️ 8:34 The Nature of Existence is Symbolic 9:00 Pregnancy 3 dreams of pregnancy 10:24 Coalescence of Events 11:17 Reality works through ordering the chaos into a pattern 12:55 Hierarchy of Remembering 14:51 Memory at a Cosmic Level 16:13 How do I deal with that question? 17:15 Disciples on the road 18:31 The Culmination
I grew up in a literalist tradition but have always had and will always have questions. Sadly many people are threatened by learning more about different viewpoints. This was good stuff. I especially like the emphasis made that something being a symbol doesn’t negate its realness. Rather it’s a symbol because of what’s real. Thanks
positivism has done so much damage to the possibilities of acquiring true knowledge, it's great to see people as you and professor Jordan finally opening the horizons of what is truth!
I'm an atheist. And this was by far the most satisfying answer to this issue I ever heard from those of your kind, the very fist time I feel like I'm agreeing with a Christian person on the interpretation of the world surrounding us. A bit ironically, your approach is quite scientific, and it also reminds me "The name of the Rose" my favorite novel. Although I don't agree with Christianity on the fundamental level, or any religion to the point I dislike them, this is very inspiring argument. You certainly make Biblical discussions easy to understand for an atheist. Thanks for sharing.
New subscriber. WOW I'm completely blown away by how profound and complex but plainly spoken answer you gave. Its impossible for man's mind to grasp the scope and perspective of the greatness of it all
I found this video about 4 months ago I believe. I was very confused and searching for answers. I wasn’t sure about Christianity. I listened to you but like barely the first time. I immediately casted judgement. Then, today I watch this… it was profound. I stopped being stubborn about 1 month ago and read the gospels for myself. Head on… it didn’t take more than 2 books to really have me automatically wanting to accept Christ as Lord. But this video coming now is insane timing. Thank you for these answers..
This video was beautiful. I am going to memorize this explanation because it's perfect for explaining so much without going off the rails like I always do. God bless you good sir.
Ha sido un gran gusto encontrar tu canal Jonathan. Soy Mario de Guatemala, y a lo largo de estos 2 últimos años mi conciencia ha evolucionado hacia este tipo de entendimiento simbólico del mundo. Ahora tengo 22 años (recién cumplidos), y estoy feliz de haber podido toparme con gente que entiende la realidad a través del poder del símbolo. Gracias por hacer estos vídeos, son una motivación para mí y para todos aquellos que buscan aproximar a las personas hacia este tipo de entendimiento.
God is beyond our understanding & reasoning...for a reason. All will be revealed in God's time, not ours. So beautifully explained... Love your passion, attention to detail & your delivery. God bless you Sir🙏💓🙏
A way to help the forensic type thinker understand what you are saying would be to consider that we ourselves are symbols, the image of God, we are nothing more than symbols of the true being. And our life is the passage from symbol to true being. We will become what we symbolize.
I just saw this. I’ve been watching Jonathan for the last year or so and I see this is from six years ago. Yes he looks younger! Yes, it’s probably good to show some of these because it kind of gives you a starting point for people who haven’t really heard him much. He is the best.
I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson, I'm reading books from his list, and I take the bible way more seriously now as an agnostic, compared to being a staunch atheist. I do know that Jung talks about synchronicity, but I don't know a lot about his opinion on it. When Jonathan talks about his wife being pregnant and certain events lining up to it I couldn't help to be sceptical about it. To me it sounds like you can explain it away with saying it is a coincidence. But I sure felt a bit funny when I was still thinking of it, while picking my nose, and Jonathan said that you couldn't compare the analysis Biblical events to a daily event like picking your nose.
You are the smartest person I have ever heard. I wish we were friends so I could listen to you explain life, the universe, and everything all the time. Thank you brother for blessing us.
Just found your channel and subscribed. In my view, focusing on the material subject we can see what it symbolizes if we really want to and are willing to open our mind to it, to be teachable. What the material subject symbolizes is a higher reality which actually causes the material subject and dwells within it like a soul dwells within it’s body. *[Got this perspective from Emanuel Swedenborg] IOW, the higher reality is the cause and the material subject is the effect. The effect is meant, imo, to be a “ladder” for one who wants to climb it to get to the cause. While each person is free to stay on the level of the effect, I believe the cause is the goal; the cause brings understanding and clarity. In school, we are not meant to stay in first grade but to move on to second grade then to third then on and on from one stepping stone to the next. To me, a good illustration would be to compare the material subject to the literal meaning of a parable or story and the symbolic meaning to the inner, more real meaning. As an example, we could consider Jesus’s parable of the sower. The literal meaning has to do with agriculture but the spiritual meaning has to do with a person’s receptivity of God’s Word. Peace and blessings to all :)
Jonathan, thank you for this video and congratulations on your and your wife's baby. I've listened to this twice now and I don't quite follow your criticism or your confusion when people ask, "Did the resurrection of Jesus the Christ actually happen." I am one who also struggles with this claim, as it is the central claim of Christianity (perhaps it's on equal footing with the claim of the Incarnation. But without the resurrection, there would be no Christianity). But your criticism is that people are expecting our wanting a detailed description or forensic outline of the event. But I don't think that is the case for many of us. The claim made by St. Paul and by the tradition as handed down by the apostles who also staked their lives on this claim was that Jesus IS risen and that this claim is not that his Spirit lives on, but that he was raised in a 'glorified body.' So it was a bodily resurrection. And I think many, including myself, who ask is the resurrection symbolic or physical, are really asking if there was an actual bodily resurrection. I get your point that symbolism is deeply real, or as JBP points out, it is 'meta-real' or 'hyper-real.' And I get that we experience our world symbolically and that as we move from our idiosyncratic symbolism we move to a cosmic symbolism. This echoes what Jung said (I think it was Jung, but it may have been Joseph Campbell): Myth is a communal dream, while dreams are private myths. But the question is that even though reality coalesces with memory and attention and consciousness on a cosmic scale, did Christ actually rise from the dead.
Actually I thought Jonathan answered that yes Jesus did bodily resurrect; but understanding that (even as an) event in literal historical terms was not possible.
Symbolism is the most primitive written forms of instinctual apperception of the basic values of living . It is a material representation of immaterial qualities and functions. A deeper mysterious doorway of experiences.
Dude... I just came to the realization of how our focus determines our receptive capacity a couple days ago, but I've been having trouble on how to put that into words... You helped me out man. Thanks!
As far as I am concerned, just about every thing that Peterson says, is fundamentally Christian. I think that by listening to him you can better understand God. As a believer myself, I see God and Christ in most of what he says.
This is the first video of yours I watched and I immediately fell in love with your content, I also subscribed your channel. Great work man, all your videos are awesome and I like how you are upgrading Jordan Peterson´s conception of symbolism. Keep up your great job :)
20:22 Nice touch at the end, where we tend to "RIP" about a departed, you usually use "memory eternal" so, bringing that in touch with the Resurrection of Christ is good theology.
Wow...this is crazy, because just a couple of hours ago, I was thinking to myself how to better improve my memory recall. I was thinking about how come I couldn't retrieve certain past events from the memory archive of my mind, why was I forgetting, and what could I do to remember and recall these events whenever I needed them. I thought about looking up videos on how I could improve my memory. These thoughts eventually subsided in my mind, but then- hours later-I come across your video in my UA-cam recommendation feed. And I didn't click on it because I thought it had something to do with remembering stuff, I clicked on it because I thought I could gain some more insight onto genesis. But here you are, talking about how to remember things better, and the importance therein. Not only that, but the example you used (about your newborn), is very similar to what I now just went through. Your experiences regarding your wife's pregnancy wasn't a coincidence and neither is this. In fact, I will see this as God telling me that what you're saying holds validity, so then, I shall surely remember this! (And on top of this, your name is Jonathan; and MY name is Jonathan too! It's even spelled the same way, lol. Its nothing huge, but it's just the cherry on top 😊)
if you walk into a room and see a Tiger, our brain will record everything . But it will focus you on the tiger and omit everything else When you try to remember walking into the room the brain will only show you the Tiger , the misconception exists that all the other recordings in that room are gone and not accessible This is not true, you can access them and visit them and sit in them and walk around in them But you have to convince your Thalamus that the Tiger is no longer the most important thing in that Room You need to calm your Thalamus down and the Thalamus is not fooled by language , so language cannot be used Its our over association with the dividing separating detached left PFC the imaginary sense of individuality that prevents us being calm enough to see past the Tiger and PS some Tigers are so scary that the Thalamus locks the memory of the Tiger incident away and prevents the imaginary idea of self from even knowing that it once met a Tiger and its here that everything becomes meaningful
In the end, the need to cling to certain beliefs and creed is a clear evidence of the ego seeking security and struggling with uncertainty. So many people identify strongly with a set of beliefs, "I AM that", and need to immerse in an already preconceived representation of the world as told by some "authority", as is (an example being the litteralists and a lot of "religious" people). The symbols of Enlightenment are everywhere in the bible, yet a majority of people are completely blind, asleep to them because of their need to enforce a psychological security and stay cozy by not shaking up their world view. On the opposite, those who see easily the meaning of the symbols can understand how "unchristian" such persons are. Why is it so important to *associate* with a doctrine? The awaken one sees these patterns of wanting to cling to ideas, beliefs, identity, etc and knows how it is strangling the power and intelligence of the self, so he learns to breath out. In my opinion, if you understand deeply the meaning of some of the biblical symbols, one consequence is that you don't need to call yourself a christian, and most importantly you move on and start living.
I,m a big fan of bart eihrman (splchk). I always found it odd that his studies led him to atheism. I read Misquoting Jesus , and it didn't challenge my faith, but kind of informed it.. He's such a great scholar,(preeminent IMO) and really cleared up problematic areas of the new testament. He also felt it necessary to write a book detailing the evidence that Jesus a real person. A genuine historical figure. If nothing else.
So grateful that I was introduced to you via the videos you were part of in Dr. Peterson's Biblical Series - Now I have yet another playlist in the making, this one specifically your videos and "Pageau/Peterson overlap content, etc...(with others, including your brother" - Thanks so much. PS - pleased to see, during my short glance at the comments section as the video was starting, some non-traditional UA-cam comments sections activity. I just found out about you, your book, etc., last night, so I'm about to see if the book has been published yet - I hope the anticipation of it doesn't raise cortisol levels if it isn't published yet - I'm sure an astounding number of people are very anxious to get it - and I do mean get it - I'm sure this will be one I want a hard copy of (I want a print copy of everything, but.... thank God for audiobooks as well. I'll stop rabbiting on now... Thank you for your work, and punching that non-existent clock, which writers (who aren't cut out to have no clock to punch, usually) must force themselves to find, with no help from those pills from "Limitless". Thanks again and best regards to you and yours, grats on the family, I see you have one from the glance I took at the comments already.
With regard to the arguments for historicity of the resurrection of Christ, check out arguments by William Lane Craig, if you want more analytical approach.
Kalam justification for the belief in God explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument Depends on whether you buy the idea that the purely physical, non- living world must have a motivation to exist. The only evidence of any ulterior motivation lies with living beings - which are fundamentally motivated to reproduce. You can chose to believe that God is a symptom of life ( we explain our motivation to reproduce as being our 'fathers' motivation handed on to us), or you can believe life is a symptom of God (all of reality is spewed forth by the great motivational force). Either way, He seems to be a part of what we experience as reality, and must also, by nature of him being superior to all, he must transcend reality. So no effective difference ? EXCEPT... if He doesn't exist if/when life doesn't exist, that is if He is a symptom of life, then He cannot be transcendent of the physical world. Jung referred to Him as "the God figure'. Unable to make a decision or assumption either way, Jung acknowledged God as an intrinsic part of the human experience - it being pointless to deny Him and useful (to say the least) to have Him around for many many reasons.
Sir, what you are doing is important beyond description, we live in the most prosperous time in human history but we find ourselves more lost then ever, weve adopted this idea that salvation is purely material and that we are purely physical beings that weve forgot what animates us and inturn lost our souls in the process and what you and Dr Peterson are doing is resurrecting our souls again, God bless you sir
C.S.Lewis saw that the gospel story was a myth but was also true - a true myth. Why should not the resurrection story be the same - a symbol but also true? After all, history itself teaches that Jesus actually lived and was crucified; why should the historical part stop before the resurrection?
This is really beautiful. I still find myself drawn to a sort of mereological nihilism because of the very fact that it is OUR attention which organizes reality as such. Being-in-itself still seems very much like a vapor to me, rather than the fundament of what is. This leads me to a sort of reductionism, where those patterns are the result of what is below, rather than what is above. I still think this is one of the very best formulations of the Christian perspective I've ever heard, and it makes me want to buy into the totality, but I still find myself impeded by those previously articulated hang-ups.
I have recently started to have an appreciation of the idea that the God that created this unbleivelably complicated universe is unlikely to be easily explained by a simple religion. It seems more reasonable to expect the designer of the universe to in fact be MORE complicated than the universe He made, and as a result, to expect the Bible to be understood simply literally is unreasonable.
So Jesus is the embodiment of an ideal that pre-existed before him. I.e. The logos. The thing I find hard to square with Jesus and Christianity in general, is that Jesus was I think quite clearly an "enlightened" being (for anyone who has read the eastern sages the similarities are too many to number) but either he or the people around him who wrote down the stories struggled to articulate this anywhere near as fully as the eastern sages. It's very difficult to know what he said exactly of course because as you point out in this video, the stories have heavily symbolic/mythic properties which means they are not to be taken as literal history as we think of it today. Mainstream Christianity worships the logos, which was projected onto the person of Jesus because he fit the pattern. But enlightenment is about putting an end to opposites and time, an end to resistance of and striving for the betterment of the present moment and instead living in deep acceptance of what is, as it arises spontaneously in Consciousness. But logos is about speaking and changing the world and improving it, which is a biological/cultural/moral activity. So I feel the edifice of Christianity, which is worship of the logos has hijacked the hidden enlightenment message of Jesus. Other words for what I mean by enlightenment are unity consciousness, nondual reality, realisation of the Self etc. This is my own theory though I'm sure others have said similar things. It could of course be that Jesus was not enlightened but that later people inserted those phrases into his mouth as they wrote the stories. But my gut says this is less likely.
Jonathan Pageau hello, thanks for the response. I shouldn't have mentioned only the eastern sages and you are quite right to bring up the western Christian and Jewish mystics - they all point to the same thing, I simply meant that he points to a truth that is found in all cultures unlike the logos which is the improving principle of the west, or the principle that has made the west so successful. So I don't mean this is an east versus west thing, but rather a mystic versus moral/social/cultural/biological (I.e. Logos) interpretation of Christ. As you say, the way the story is told points strongly to the logos interpretation, and that is what the titanic cultural and intellectual framework of Western thought found its climax in up to that point; but there are certain things he said e.g. "think no more of the morrow" or "before Abraham was, I am" which are totally at odds with conventional logos morality (the former) or make almost no sense in a non mystic context (the latter - the mainstream apologetics for it are laughable!). Another clue is that true gnostic gospels are absolutely rife with mystic material and it's very telling to me that they were rejected from the canonical bible. I guess it's my personal struggle to see how a moral principle aimed at improving society and the individual (logos) can be squared with a conception of reality that does not recognise time, the reality of subject and object dichotomy etc. which is surely the ultimate truth that the Christian mystics also point to. I haven't read Meister Eckhart yet, have been meaning to for a while, and you seem to suggest he manages this, so I'll get going on it. Is there a particular writing you recommend? And note I'm not denigrating either logos or mystic truth - they are both true, depending on your frame of reference and end goal. But I think they are at odds.
Ok, thanks for this. Very complex stuff that needs unpacking here - I'll have to think about it, but fear I need more context on the definitions of the ideas you put forward here. I of course understand your one post, one response rule - it must be a nightmare to keep up. For others, please note that I wasn't saying that the gnostic gospels are explicitly teaching "unity consciousness" "nonduality" etc. (which I don't think you thought I was saying) but rather that they contain a lot more of that sort of language than the canonical gospels (which also contain some, but less). And of course its not the only reason they are not canonical - the world as evil is probably one of the reasons for instance. So when mentioning the gnostic texts in reference to nonduality I'm talking about passages like this from the Gospel of St. Thomas: Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and above as the below and when you make the male and the female into a single one, then you shall enter the Kingdom And reflecting again on why I mentioned the eastern sages only in my first post, I think it was subconsciously because many of the important writings predate Jesus, and so are much older than the Christian mystics (necessarily of course!) and the Jewish ones I know about too, and of course the Sufis too. Interestingly it is quite possible that Jesus would have met Buddhists when he was growing up, which is not to say that he was a Buddhist, but that the east and west were not self contained worlds and crossed over in the middle east. At that time the Buddhists (and Hindus) probably had the most articulated version of mystic truth. People have come to the same conclusions all across the world separately through introspection, but it is an interesting idea to posit that Jesus might have met some sages in his 20s (western or eastern!) which helped him clarify his thinking. Since I still have questions, if anyone else can help to point me as to the non contradiction between Logos and Mysticism (as outlined above) that would be great. My understanding of Logos is largely the Jordan Peterson view, which might mean I am missing other important parts of its meaning, that he has not mentioned.
Just had a thought - the fact that Jesus the man "fit the pattern" as I said above or was recognised as a sublime embodiment of the Logos, and was also as I claim "enlightened" should tell me that these things are not in opposition. BUT, I can't figure out why not given the above arguments... Time for some Meister E.
Christ is the embodiment of Kek (Keku, Kekui) who is the bringer of light (enlightenment, revelation and rebirth, resurrection) from darkness (the abyss, the unknown world.) archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/282/mode/2up www.cityofsmoke.com/archives/285 hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib70
Jonathan Pageau - First of all, thank you for acknowledging the oppression and plight of the Kekistani Diaspora. In these times of anti-Kekism by the establishment media and false narrative creators, it is refreshing to gain acknowledgement from such a wise man as yourself. May Kek's messianic powers and the words of his prophet Saint Joseph Campbell continue to fill your soul with wisdom and creativity. Those carvings.....dude, you are a freakin bad ass. That's Kek right there boy. I read your very interesting interpretation of St. Christopher and I want to tell you in a strange twist of synchronicity, I grew up on St. Christopher Street as a kid. Praise be to Kek, King of Synchronicity. Unfortunately, much of what you wrote acted as confirmation bias for my original statement. In the Ogdoad, Nu is the ruler of the WATERY abyss. Kek is the mentor of the WATERY abyss The path to revelation is aided by dog-headed helpers, the bearers of the Messiah The Dog-headed Anubis is the guide into the afterlife (salvation) Odyessus's cyclops is the eye of Horus. EVERY journey must enter and emerge from (cross) the WATERY abyss You already know this as you say, "Man as center, as mediator between heaven and earth, has two horizons, one leading inward and upward to the Angelic realms and finally to the Uncreated, and one leading outward and downwards towards the rest of creation and ultimately reaching primordial Chaos." Pageau, Jonathan, "The Dog-Headed Icon of St-Christopher (pt.2): Encountering Saint-Christopher" Aug 26, 2013 The WATERY abyss ruled by Nu is literally primordial Chaos but it is also the symbolic abyss in every man's soul. Revelation is on the horizon. For without revelation and rebirth, one must suffer eternity in the WATERY abyss (primordial chaos) Have you looked into the Ogdoad and the lineage from Nu to Atum (Adam) to Ra? Please read about the Ogdoad here and the variants of each deity, including Kek. archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/282/mode/2up I had not considered the connection between Canaan and Caine. I see what you are trying to do there with the K beginning and N endings. A little Kabbalah magic against KekistaN huh. Stick to canons and carvings kid. Don't start messin with the Kabbalah. Kekistanis are the Kings of Kabbalah and weaponized autism and I happen to be a Imperial Frog of the Kekistani Kabbalah Keepers. I wonder if you have pondered Canaan's significance as the FOURTH son. What is the connection between the fourth son and the Ogdoad? Consider this passage you wrote when reading The Destruction of Mankind by Ra. (The Book of the Heavenly Cow) "Before the fall it is said Man was clothed in glory, and similarly he had access to the glories of God. The fall “hardened” those glories, transformed them into limits. There are two limits appearing to man, one limit on each “horizon”. The inward limit is the cherub with a flaming sword preventing the entry into paradise, and the outward limit is that layer of skin, that limit of corporality or animality blocking our complete dissolution into the chaos of death. " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Heavenly_Cow Nu was also a frog. The Ogdoad represents four "mothers and fathers" or attributes of existence. The four males as frogs and the females as serpents. Very relevant to this topic of symbolism. The frog is the natural food of the serpent. The serpent is ever present in the Bible as is the frog. The serpent is the mother. The Ouroboros. The cyclical nature of life. Cannibalism! Caine, Canaan, Cannibal Wait a minute! I am a Hamite Kekistani. Your analysis seems awful anti-Canaanite for no apparent reason. Did you look into the ritual "The Cross of the Frog" by Aleister Crowley? What is the symbolism of the ritual? why does it reference the Apocalypse of St. John the Divine? Why did Crowley name a frog Jesus of Nazareth? Thelema is based on the Ogdoad. Was Crowley a nut case who spun magnificent tales of BS or did he discover the Kabbalah? You touched on so many variant figures and stories in your St. Christopher analysis, I hope I hit the important ones. Emergence from the watery abyss Canaan being the fourth son the correlations between Atum (Atem) and Adam The fall of Man and the Destruction of Mankind by Ra The dog-headed Anubis guide of the afterlife (salvation) The eye of Horus. Links were already posted in a separate post.
16:40 and yet Paul states very strongly in 1 Cor 2:4-5 and many other places that it was precisely through experiencing literal supernatural events the way the a witness to a murder would witness it, that he spread the faith. This does not preclude these actions from being symbolic, but their relevance supercedes the symbolism.
Your comment is hilarious. Read that whole chapter again. I don't think it means what you think it means. In the whole chapter he speaks of the revelation of hidden mysteries, "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived", he talks about knowing the thoughts of God revealed by the Spirit and speaks of having the mind of Christ. Hilarious that you would interpret such a lofty text by using the word "literal supernatural events" as if those three words put together were not sufficiently contradictory in themselves.
Thank you for your reply. I reread the passage. The "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I'm using RSVCE) is for the "mature" but when he first "came to" the Corinthians they were immature like a baby unable to eat meat as St. Paul says in 3:1-3. So the "demonstration of the Spirit and power" is not the same thing as the "hidden wisdom." In fact is it juxtaposed with wisdom, a worldly wisdom yes but still wisdom. The reason that Paul "came to" them with "demonstration of the Spirit and power" and "not lofty words or wisdom" is made clear in chapter 1:22 "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". He came to them like a Jew in order to stand in contradiction to the teaching of the philosophers, after all just before St. Paul came to Corinth in Acts 18:1ff he had just been embarrassed by Greek philosophers in Athens Acts 17:16-34. Therefore these "demonstration of the Spirit and power" are signs like a Jew would demand. What kind of sign would a Jew demand? Well according to Mk 8:11-12 it is a supernatural event to show his ability to master the laws of the universe and in John 4:46-54 the literal healing of a dying son. When they come looking for signs in John 6 Jesus says they are interested in filling their stomachs, that was the draw for the immature, only then does he try to draw them into the hidden wisdom of the mature.
I also want to add I mean no disrespect by my first comment on this video (I don't know if you read it), I just get frustrated with double speak amongst what we Catholics call Modernists. It's ok if that is how you feel about it or if you don't feel that way, I just wish people would be explicit on this topic.
I certainly respect what I imagine in charity is your unwillingness to put the mysteries of God in a box, and that it is very likely limiting your ability/willingness to speak because of course we speak in delineated categories. Nor do I want to push you beyond what you feel morally comfortable with, there have been one of two Catholic dogmas to which I have assented to like this (as in I don't know what that means but I think that it is true), and I think that you mean it with no intended subterfuge. My concern is that there are many Protestants and Catholics (or at least those who call themselves Protestants and Catholics) who would say those very words but mean nothing more than "The Church/members thereof is/are less morally evil than it/they has/have been in the past" or in the case of Hegel something like "Humanity's self-awareness of the connection of the human mind to the laws of the universe continues to be synthesized in the collective consciousness". Those two things (esp. the first) may very well be symbolic meanings of the Resurrection and in that sense "what the Resurrection means" and the Resurrection may be their efficient cause perhaps even formal cause, but they are not "the event". And as far as I can tell it is the event that St. Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15.
I’m new to Jonathan’s postings and maybe I’ll find his answer to my biggest question as I continue following him. But, what I want to know is, what does he think about the patterns and stories of other religions? Does the same apply with regards to other religions?
All those signs and coincidences re: a new born child. Awesome! I was given a premonition one year in advance that my father would die. (and I'm not a mystical person) It's something very real. I've been getting these "vibes" about my own death lately. I'm trying to get my house in order. Love your talk Jonathan. God bless your efforts and you. (I got steered in your direction through Paul VanderKlay, and Jordan Peterson)
It's so hard to listen to you because you're so nice to watch and I love the way you speak. Then, when I finally do grasp what you're saying... it's even more intense!
those that know don't reveal those that don't know write books about guessing The answers were left by the ancient's in your cortices echoing Mum to daughter eternally but The Roman Slavers taught you to focus on lies written in books and that those words are the literal truth Those Slavers EH! so simple to discredit a teaching, that needs to be encoded as part of the lesson , to teach the children in schools that words are to be taken literally
This is why I subscribed to your channel! I am I a Christian and in seminary but I also love symbolism and it has opened my eyes and made life “magical” as you say. I am forever thankful for gentlemen such as yourself, Jung, Peterson, etc. Thank you and may God bless all you di
I think of the Bible the same way as I think about Shakespeare. Did Romeo and Juliette truly exist as two lovers from rival families who killed themselves? No. But did the pattern occur, family feuds causing needless death? Absolutely. That event did not occur once to an individual family, but millions of times in different forms across the world. I think that distinction is the key to a modern take on religion. There's no question that the fundamentalists, teaching that the Bible is literally true and that the stories represent individual events, are doing a major disservice to society. But there is incredible value to the symbolic view that treats these stories as patterns.
Elisha except it’s not. You’re literally telling me that Genesis makes sense according to what we actually know about the world today? That man was created from dust and woman from man’s own body? That there was a talking serpent? That we were one of the first creatures on this planet? (a planet that is billions of years old) You don’t believe that many things are symbolic, metaphorical and simply exaggerated as human beings who believed in God wrote the Bible, not God himself? Who would have been around to see God do all that in Genesis? You think he whispered in Moses’ ear exactly how he created everything? When? And why? He’s God, why would he even share that? He doesn’t need to, he’s God, he’s too big and too great. To think we know everything there is to know about the creator of the world is absurd, and to think we’ll find that in a book written by humans is even more absurd. Yes, the Bible is a book with great stories that convey God’s greatness, some of them I believe have truth, but to believe everything happened exactly like that and that it’s the literal word of God... I’m scared of how unintelligent so many human beings are.
There’s a difference between making the Bible fit into your world view and having the Bible be your world view. Anyone can interpret the Bible anyway they want but at the end there can only be one absolute truth. In my opinion, the less literally you take the Bible the less meaning it becomes to an individuals life. Did God really create everything in 7 days? I don’t see why not, is he not God? The problem now becomes scientism as a religion of itself and world view, that contradicts literal Bible events. And you can keep going further and further. Did Jesus exist in physical form? Is there really a need for repentance for salvation or is it just a suggestion to living a proper moral life? I see a struggle for people who don’t accept the Bible literally to dance around anything they want because it’s all made up and not God’s word, picking and choosing what they want to subscribe to and what they would rather throw away.
It gets difficult cause Jesus was a real person. I suppose I don’t believe he walked on water. And that was more of a symbol for the miracle he was. A poetic way of talking about the prophet. The son of God title to me is more metaphorical than real. I don’t think God gives birth like that. Not do I think it would be moral for a God to impregnate a woman. Pretty rapey.
David Keith How can you accept the story of Jonah and the Whale literally though? I suppose that’s where I would make a point of debate. There’s a reason people can’t take it as literally the word of God. Translation... King James Version... I mean it literally says on the book it’s a mans version. How can it be Gods direct word but King James Version of it? It seems silly.
Elisha I will fully admit I do fear men. Probably more than God. I think the fact I didn’t believe in God most of my teenage years impacts that though. The fear of God was almost taken from me so to speak.
Why do I find your videos all the time??? Its like I stress out over a topic and then bam! Even word for word sometimes the titles are the same as what I am thinking about
WoW! I just found you, two days ago! Have watched 4-5 of your videos. Thank you, I often felt lonely in my faith. So much more to literal and symbolic, it is about application in the simplest of ways every day….as you do! Merci 💕🙏🕊🌏🌎🌍🕊🙏💕
Just to be clear: to the question of do you believe Jesus was a historical individual who physically rose from the dead at a particular time (in the way atheists and most people think of it), your answer is no? You answer yes to whether you the "event" occurred, but your definition of the event is different from the way most people conceive it. When the question is asked, most people take the event to mean the Jesus and Resurrection as described in the Bible, taken literally. I love your content, but I think it would be helpful to make clear that your answer is no, to the way the question is commonly understood. Otherwise, many people will walk away feeling confused, and the secular types will accuse you of obfuscation.
I believe you misunderstood what he said. From what he says he does believe the resurrection is a literal event. His mention of it was saying it's not described. It's not told the exact model of how it happens, and he continues that it doesn't need that type of forensic description. And the description isn't important. But it is taken as a real historical event.
@@isaiahpoe Precisely, and to use our relatively modern ways of doing history is at odds with how the stories are meant to be perceived. Yes, Christ did ressurect, but to boil it down to a set up observable factors such as time and place, and to know the intimate details of how it happened all misses the point. In fact, you reduce the Truth to something much meaner and in essence less true. We cannot expect the world and the eternal to conform to our utterly finite and limited ways of perception.
It all comes down to the meaning of words in the context of Christianity. As Jonathan said in other videos, it's all symbolic. It's never litteral. It's never metaphorical. It's only symbolic. What does that mean? It means that the event itself happened symbolically. And it's still happening right now as we speak and it has always happened. It's timeless. There is no physicality to it. The Bible is the story of how our brain created the world we live in. It's the story of how an ape became aware of itself. It's a story on how to behave in the context of our evolution from animals to something more. It's a praise to humanity and it's a social tool. So, did Jesus rose from the dead? It's all packed like a software is compiled. What is the meaning of "Jesus"? What is the meaning of "rose"? What is the meaning of "death"? What is the meaning of "event"? What is the meaning of "body"? It's a program made out of a complex set of subroutines called "jesus", "rose", "death", "event", "body", etc, and only the combination of all of those makes up the whole story. The more you unpack each of these subroutines, the more you understand what is the true meaning of resurrection. Here is an anlogy: When you open spotify and play a Mozart piece, did spotify really played mozart music? It's a complex system of Software + Speakers + Recording + Rewriting of scores + Mozart writing the music + what is creativity + etc etc You can unpack eveything and then, maybe you'll have the full answer. So, did spotify just played some Mozart music? You can say yes, it happened, you heard it. Or you can be cynical and say that no, it wasn't really mozart, it's only a program and it wasnt real instruments in front of you, we can't know if the song was played perfectly, etc etc etc. But our brain doesn't work like that. It makes generalisation so we can make something useful out of all the information we have. It's all symbolic. Never litteral. Never metaphorical. I believe the Bible is written in a way that you can get something out of every level of unpacking. New atheists are mad at the first degrees of interpretation because our society (in it's own first degree of interpretation) has nothing to do with the societies back then. But when you digg a little (into both our own values and the Bible messages), the story is still the same. Nothing has changed. We are still humans. And that's the story of the Bible.
Have you read the Bible? How is it a story of evolution if God created man in his image? One can believe man created God, or, God created man. How can nothing create something? Your comment is like me saying Charles Darwin’s book is about salvation by faith in Christ? You can interpret the Bible however you please but at the end of the day there is one absolute truth. One person believes when we die there will be ‘nothing’ and another believes in a judgement; both cannot exist.
@@AlexxTehGreat The judgement at the end of someone's life is real. If you do bad things, people will most likely remember you as a bad person. If you do great things, people will most likely remember you as a good person. Men didnt created God nor did God created men. God IS men. Men IS God. God is the SYMBOL of what humankind is. When "God" judges you at the end of time, it's MANKIND who judges you. It's just a reminder that you should do good in life. Hell is a concept added to christianity that was "stolen" from ancient Egyptian religion. Much like the date of birth of Jesus, corresponding to winter equinoxe... it's all old school religion based on the study of the movement of stars in the sky adapted to the new christian religion. It's all symbolic, never litteral. You will not "litterally" burn in hell and feel physical pain after you die... but God (humankind) might
"In things like movies and videos games, the story of the resurection is every where if you can see it" LEGEND OF ZELDA BREATH OF THE WILD. The hero literally wakes up after 100 years in the "Cave of Resurrection"
The whole human narrative is echoing eternally via the cortices Mum to daughter Its the Roman and Arabian Slavers that taught you to ignore the wives tales as stuff and nonsense and that truth is written Yes the Slavers are the ones who taught us what to believe Slavers , ill say it again Slavers
You reminded me of these verses: “One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.” Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.” John 20:24-28 NLT
I was an atheist for a while. Recently I had come back around to spirituality but I still held some skepticism against Christianity. My entire view of the bible changed when a friend from college told me that the bible ought not to be read literally. He personally loves the idea of the bible being "the best story ever told" because that phrase reminds him that whether or not the events in the bible are historically accurate, they still have meaning beyond their historical accuracy. He opened my eyes to that it doesn't matter whether or not Jesus was actually real because whats important is that the story of Jesus is real.
gshooting Saying that god is real is such a loaded statement. God exists beyond real and unreal. God is beyond our comprehension. Trying to say that god is real is just as inaccurate as saying god isn’t real. The nature of humans and our words will never be enough to say exactly what the nature of god is. And I do not know if my friend prays but I’ll speak for myself when I say that I don’t see prayer as an act that one does but rather a a state of mind that one comes into.
If you read the Bible though, then you know that Paul warns that denying Jesus’ resurrection basically makes the faith useless. He wasn’t being symbolic. None of them were. It really does matter that Jesus is real, otherwise it really is “cleverly invented stories.” Otherwise, Christ died for nothing and you’re still in your sins because you don’t believe that he actually removed them…that you’re still your own source of righteousness. That tendency toward hyper spiritual interpretation isn’t Christianity, but Gnosticism.
thankyou jonathan. i may well join in with one of your classes on the new university! all best wishes for that. the four levels are also used in astrology and in understanding and indeed using its symbolic world for purposes of revealing divine wisdom. its amazing how all these worlds of truth meet no matter what particular lens we come to them. Richard
Could this be why dreams feel so real? They appear to be almost pure symbology; in hindsight irrational, but at the time, feel more real than waking experience. Is this another example of the symbolic world being more real than material reality?
look into Carl Jung's work on dreams. They are often very heavily archetypal, kind of the psychological equivalent of a dive into the Unknown World of the Hero's Journey, or the unconscious, to fight dragons, confront death, and discover hidden treasures…
Read Carl Jung. He inspired me to write down my dreams and it's only now, a month after I had them, that I am able to understand them. They also work in series. It's weird because understanding them hits you like an epiphany.
Congratulations on the baby, what a blessing. As an Orthodox Christian I Truly believe Orthodox is the true faith and is the only Solution for the Western Man, I do hope your listeners understand the impact of the Orthodox Church on your worldviews and consider converting themselves. We in the West have a bad habit of taking beliefs yet divorcing them from their source, cutting a flower from it's roots. We don't give credit where credit is due and I hope people understand credit is due to Yourself and the Orthodox Church with it's 2000 years of tradition that has helped shape your views. Thanks for your heard work. In Christ
Except Orthodoxy broke that 2000 years of Tradition over 900 years ago in the Great Schism. Remember that Christ built His Church on Peter, and that Chair of Peter (previously Chair of Moses, so the Catholic Church is actually about 3500 years old) has been passed down for generations, just as bishops lay hands. You Orthodox are so close to the truth; you have actual priests with apostolic succession, and the Real Presence..but you lack authority. Check this out: ua-cam.com/video/faIB-sOBDKk/v-deo.html
Mr. Pageau,We cannot treat the symbolism of Genesis the same as the narrative telling of the gospels and the resurrection. While one could give much space to saying Adam may not be a literal Adam, because of the content, the age of the story, etc. The gospel narrative is much, much closer to a crime scene than your give credit. Jesus and his resurrection account is not a metaphor, symbolic or psychotic experience. It was real, physical, in the domain of time and space and yet outside that domain as well, as understood by his risen, glorified body that could eat, appear and walkthrough walls. If you believe the Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus were imaginations of what they believed, then so be it. They are NOT, however, in the same nuance that Peterson projects Genesis stories, that being traditions of being and logos. In essence, the coming of Christ, literally, is the fulfillment of that archtype, prophetic fulfillment, and transcendent reality. With the coming of Jesus, the archtypes are gone because they are fulfilled. Note the whole OT sacrificial system that pointed to the sins of Israel being cleansed by a sacrificial lamb were fulfilled by the ultimate sacrificial lamb, the real blood of Jesus was spilled, not symbolically... though the OT symbolism is seen as intended. So the question becomes, Why not interpret scripture as literal where it suggests and symbolic where it suggests? To have to force all scripture into non-literal symbolism is as bad as all literal, true? As humans, we want the benefits of truth, but not the price to have it. Jesus told the parable about the man who found a large pearl and sold all he had to get it. We must sell off our ideas of human diety, skepticism of a holy God who judges, and pursue the person of God? My 2C, thanks for your thoughts.DR
I am equally frustrated by his ambiguity, but why can't they be both literal and symbolic. Like when I make love to my wife, I'm literally and symbolically giving myself to her. We are literally and symbolically being joined together. If the archetypes are fulfilled then why aren't they more real now than ever?
Jonty Campbell, and yet the logos behind the Christian mythos explicitly denies that this is merely the case. If it is true then Christianity is a fundamentally bad myth.
"mere" as in nothing more than. Myth is very important but something could be more than a myth, and thus not merely a myth. My wife is a great mother and a great lover. Both of those are of fundamental importance and not be trifled with, but she could be merely a good mother, implying not that being a mother is not important but that she is not also the other thing. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bad meaning...?" Is it how could a myth be bad or how is this myth bad?
Jonty Campbell, Your two comments are incongruous. If Christianity were simply a myth to the point that "whether God exists or not is not a useful question" or "You won’t gain any new converts by treating the bible [such as the Resurrection] as ACTUAL, historical occurrences" the Christianity is a mere myth. I'm aware that you are using myth to mean story, and behind every myth is a logos (meaning/moral/abstract principle behind the particulars). For example that habitable order is formed out of chaos is a logos of the Gen 1 myth. Although if I remember correctly he doesn't point out that mythoi have logoi behind them, Jean Pierre Vernant is a good place to look to understand this distinction, although I expect you are either already familiar with it or else get it without needing extra reading (still he is quite good). The problem is that an inextricable part of the logos behind the Christian myth is that the historical particulars matter. This is in direct contradiction to Greco-Roman Philosophy which held that God (assuming that is an adequate referent) did not even know that particulars existed. He was completely consumed by abstractions and particularity was at best an inferior necessity of the divine overflowing and at worst the positively evil result of pride. By contrast Christianity claims that God not only is aware of the particulars, but deeply loves them and acts intentionally (as Maimonides mockingly puts it as "the purpose of one who purposes -- I believe he is referencing Isaiah but I can't find the passage at the moment) in relation to them. It's for this reason that it is only the Christian Philosopher Boethius who begins asking if God can know the future. The idea that God even knew the present or past was absurd to the Pagan Philosopher. You see this most fundamentally in the incarnation where the Logos become a particular historical person ("was made flesh" Jn 1), Who was born in a particular time and place ("In the days of King Herod . . .when Quirin′i-us was governor of Syria" Lk 1-2). He died a particular death and according to 1 Cor 15 rose a particular resurrection, without which "our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" which He did amongst other reasons because He "loved [the particular, Paul of Tarsus] and gave himself for [the particular, Paul of Tarsus]" (Gal 2). This is not only seen in the NT but also in the OT as well, where God calls a particular man (Abraham) who is asked to sacrifice his particular son (Isaac) and chooses a particular brother (Jacob) to create a particular people (Israel) over all the other peoples (gentiles). And this particular people awaited a particular Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) son of the Particular King (David) with his particular dynasty, which Messiah fundamentally taught them the Logos is an intentional servant of particular humans, indeed "the great lover of mankind" as the liturgy of John Chrysostom put it, which God is known from all the other gods because He is the God of those very particular men, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So if "whether ANY religious figure ACTUALLY existed or not . . . is not a useful question" then Christianity is a fundamentally and deeply flawed mythos because it conveys a fundamentally false logos.
Jonty Campbell, 1. I'm aware that myth as a genre conveys meaning which is true regardless of whether or not the narrative itself is historically accurate. But it is the nature of the Christian myth that if its narrative does not also happen to be historically accurate then its profound "verity" is actually a falsity. For example, the profound verities of Rapunzel is something along the lines of: "In order for a girl who is in the grasp of an Oedipal mother to transition to being a woman she must be whisked away by an unruly man whom she civilizes through marriage and fatherhood," and that "the motivating factor of the Oedipal mother is the fear of losing her youth by become a grandmother." These two things can be true whether or not there ever was such a person as Rapunzel. However, one of the profound verities of the Christian myth is "The Divine is personally concerned with the lives of historically particular individuals." It conveys this verity through examples. If these examples are not historically accurate, indeed if the historicity is irrelevant, it puts the lie to this profound verity. This profound verity cannot be true unless the narrative is historically accurate. This profound verity is at the heart of the Christian myth; if Pageau does not realize this, and I fear he doesn't, then he is mistaken. 2. I suspect it is accurate to say that when logos meets chaos it orders it and the ordering of chaos is creation. I would point out though that in the story humans are made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are not the things which primarily speak order into chaos. There is a transcendent principal capable of speech such that by the mere act of speaking what He says happens. Our speech is creative only insofar as it mimics His, as an image (is in accord with reality or true). His speech is true by fiat, ours is true by mimesis. Also it might help you to look into the difference between logos endiathetos and logos prophorikos.
"There is no reality which is not symbolic. The nature of our existence in the world is symbolic. Events coalesce around centres of meaning, through our Attention and our Memory.
We all experience this constantly, and if one is attentive, what it does is it makes the world a magical place" - Jonathan Pageau
The whole Bible is symbolic not literal that’s a fact many blessings
@strieko Jesus Christ is not a historical figure you never existed history lies I promise you that there is no historical proof for Jesus no foundation nothing
@strieko Jesus Christ =666
Messiah =666 Look how nasty prideful and pigheaded and horrible people are who follow the Bible to those who don’t believe the lies they believe the Bible is a weapon of mass destruction that has destroyed this earth only the weak minded believe it And I was one of them until I decided to think for myself and seek the truth many blessings
@strieko And that makes no sense I didn’t promise you anything
@strieko God is man-made does not exist don’t fall for the occult trap that you are God please nothing good will come from it
Mr. Pageau, it is an understatement to say that many young people who grew up in The Church but were inculcated by the public school system and modern-day media sources desperately NEED to be awakened to the type of wisdom displayed in your video. Your view not only offers an alternative perception to the black and white view of many Church sects, but more importantly I think it renews a sort of intrigue that many have lost when reading/thinking about The Bible.
Raleigh Swan, well put.
Raleigh Swan what do you mean by inculcated?
Very true bro..so dam true
@@hues-
inculcate (ĭn-kŭlˈkātˌ, ĭnˈkŭl-)
v.
To impress (something) upon the mind of another by frequent instruction or repetition; instill: inculcating sound principles.
v.
To teach (others) by frequent instruction or repetition; indoctrinate: inculcate the young with a sense of duty.
I agree. Many Christians attack Peterson for even suggesting symbolic interpretation of the Bible at all. And I understand their fears. But they completely miss that Peterson is capable of getting atheists to read the Bible and follow Christian morality... they are fearing that he’s trying to rewrite the Bible basically. That’s not what he does though. It’s frustrating hearing Christians tell me Peterson is a Charlatan and a fraud when he’s why I came back to Christ.
Every time I listen to Jonathan, I am so moved, so edified, so encouraged! I'm a new catechumen in the Orthodox Church and I am simply blown away! How exciting that here, now, in my 67th year on earth, I am truly comfortable regarding my Christian beginning and ending, and I can say truthfully, life is good!
Wow slow clap applause for the questioner. Literally asked ALL of the questions I would ask
@@cbogue418 feel you. all these questions are floating around me constantly. Johnathon gave some wonderful insight but in my opinion he kinda skirted around them in a "no, but yes" way
ah well
@7LayerOscillator
There is a saying you will see floating around about the Eucharist:
Catholics believe that the Eucharist is real. Protestants believe it is symbolic. Orthodox Christians believe that it is real *because* it is symbolic.
Don't give up trying to understand. I feel you are close. I will pray for you, and the 4 people that liked your comment. ❤️☦️
@@jesh879 ..well not quite; Catholics and Orthodox believe it IS real but also symbolic. saying the Orthodox 'believe that it is real because it is symbolic' is dangerous as it's too vague and could lead to misunderstanding but I feel you are close.
did Jonathan answer though? the Eternal Son WAS Incarnate of the All Holy Virgin in a moment of time and truly lived, was crucified and Rose again. things can be real and symbolic.
@@marcokite literally jonathan has said that. And so have many other orthodox leaders. So... idrc what you think.
Please make more of these, they are extremely valuable, you don't even know how much
You don't understand because you have become blind and deaf. There is no god, we are gods
Anthony John “There is no God,”
“We are gods”
Fractals of the cosmic intelligence that we call god. Made in his image. Made to experience his creation and gain wisdom only to again unite and add to the cosmic library with the cosmic father at the time we die. Our light and energy transform, then be reborn again to continue the process in an ever-expanding wisdom gathering loop. Or at least that's what I currently believe. We are a fractal part of God.
and Congratulations on the baby!!
Lol that was a hilarious story. Couldn't make it up.
Incredible - loved this so much. As someone raised catholic, then fundementalist, then atheist, to now returning to the symbolism inside Christianity this verbalizes the ways symbolism is actually more true, more potent and eternal that a brief moment of personal reality. Well done analysis.
As a former hyper-rationalist atheist, I've been trying to get my spiritual mind oriented for the last year or so with Jordan Peterson at the helm of the ship. Your channel definitely seems like the next deep dive for me, as there is an absolutely unfortunate dearth of this kind of content in the mainstream. Thank you for making these videos. They do not go unappreciated.
If you are looking for faith that is based upon REASON you are on the right track. And I think you would really appreciate my book "The Holy Grail is Found."
@@tomrhodes1629 Can I find it for free to check it out? I'll buy it if I want to read the whole book.
That's awesome you're on a spiritual path brother. Maybe rethink who is at the "helm of the ship" though. Just something I'm going through myself. I keep trying to let others tell me how to think or what I should be doing. I just started owning my beliefs and actions myself. Believe what you want, but own it.
So weird, yeah I'm in a similar position now. I've always had a strong sense of morality and thought it was because of my upbringing and ability to reason. I reasoned that I wanted to survive and others to survive, well to thrive really, be free and have good lives so my sense of morality is based about that, at least so I thought? I have been ardently atheist all my life pretty much, thinking that all Christian thought of God as a literal sky daddy (as I mockingly referred to the phenomenon) who would smite you if you don't placate yourself pathetically in front of him like a snivelling slimy and blindly loyal henchman for a war lord. This image was worsened by the horrific things this (literal, at least that was how I thought others thought and some do) person in the sky did, send plagues, screw people over as a bet, murder children through excruciating diseases.
Then I came across peterson, consumed all his lectures and have been reading maps of meaning and just wow.
So I have come to think that my morality is based in immersion in Judeo-Christian culture, reflected in my parents values, reason (I reason that being moral and wanting the best for myself and others will bring that about if I act that way) and most importantly in literature and movies, particularly fantasy and mythology. They are abstracted forms of behaviour (over immense spans of time), acting out how you should or should not behave in order to find meaning, be successful and in general be a good person Symbolism always fascinated me, why dragons would show up in every culture in the world, what an object represented to people metaphorical. So I don't know what to call myself anymore? Atheist, a theist? And I certainly don't want to be in the same boat as the people who believe in God as a literal non-human person with immense superpowers (though I sort of get how that might be useful???, But dangerous too), so my morality per se has not been perceptively altered, but layers have been removed from my vision, so I can 'see' more perspectives of the world. More importantly how and why I should act.
so weird
You might like Fr Richard Rohr, Karen Armstrong's 'A History of God', and if you want to go deep into some medieval theology, Lovejoy's classic, 'The Great Chain of Being'.
I'd totally go to church if I could find a pastor who talked like this.
If you find one let me know
They may not speak the same words JP says, but the message is always clear. I hope you search & find!!! x
Just as God told Elijah when he went into hiding from Jezebel:
(Note: I know the context deals with persecution, but God has still set Biblically grounded pastors, preachers, teachers, etc. in the world to learn from.)
1 Kings 19:9-18 NASB
Then he came there to a cave and lodged there; and behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and He said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [10] He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [11] So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. [12] After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. [13] When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [14] Then he said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword. And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." [15] The LORD said to him, "Go, return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus, and when you have arrived, you shall anoint Hazael king over Aram; [16] and Jehu the son of Nimshi you shall anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. [17] It shall come about, the one who escapes from the sword of Hazael, Jehu shall put to death, and the one who escapes from the sword of Jehu, Elisha shall put to death. [18] Yet I will leave 7,000 in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal and every mouth that has not kissed him."
Romans 1:14-17 NASB
I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. [15] So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. [16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Then you would love my book, "The Holy Grail is Found."
Funny enough, you can actually find some Catholic priests who talk this way. Catholicism actually has some very sophisticated approaches to the texts.
Wow. I am not (yet) a Christian. I'm watching video's like this and trying to get a better understanding. And this video was tremendously helpful. The idea that the Bible has compressed events and meaning is not something I considered before. Thank you.
May the Holy Spirit lead you to Christ for salvation and communion with the Father.
Curious to see where you are today?
Christ challenges you to sacrifice yourself, to yourself, to the world, and to God, like He did. He wants you to walk in His steps and the steps of the saints. Will you answer the call?
My introduction to symbolism was something I noticed about Jesus. He speaks in parables, and the Bible is full of stories, so I concluded that God teaches us through the stories of the Bible and even Jesus didn't interpret it at face value. This was after I realized that the running theme of literal interpretations of Christianity is not compatible with my view of reality.
Intriguing do you think that Jesus is God flesh incarnate? Or do you think that is symbolic as in a way that we are all apart of god. Also do you think us being a part of God is just a symbolism way of saying that we have a soul?
@@rushpatriot2866 People never can answer this
@@rushpatriot2866 both and one cannot be without the other, because reality is not merely physical, think about it this way, what is the "realist" thing in a Darwinian sense, it is not the animals that changed over time but it that which selects, but that which selects is not physically real but none the less the realist thing, one connot be without the other.
Pierre Meshreky that’s a pretty intriguing explanation. It might go even deeper than that. The more truths found the more mysteries uncovered
Your so right, check out Bill donahue hidden meaning. Com
I have been following you for a while, but since I have been looking into church, fathers and orthodoxy, I have come to realize how absolutely brilliant you are. You are truly a gift. The veil is lifted and you are such a big part of that for me. Thank you very much.
HOLY SHIT. You've managed to express something that I had a faint hunch about, but couldn't put into words. I'm excited about the bible again.
Same
Same!
I am very happy to have finally found this video, Jonathan! You have done humanity a tremendous service here. You have finally made it possible for me to bridge the term "symbol." Though I have been studying the works of Dr. Jung for 3 decades, which is almost entirely about symbolism, no where have I found such a succinct and important discussion of why a symbol is important until I viewed this video. You definitely have earned the notoriety you are beginning to receive, and I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future. I am planning to add this video to one of my own playlists, which spotlights the work of others, and I will mention it in our Group meeting this evening.
Jonathan, I know you must have felt the Spirit in you strong this night. That was an incredibly powerful flow of wisdom that was obviously free flowing not from your willing. It reminded me of a person freestyle rapping in a flow state. Wow. Thank you for reminding me that there are more dimensions of being and reality seeking expression than the purely scientific lens our current culture is infatuated with.
Some moments in some days I feel a profound connection to the current moment and a deep connection with being. Colors are more vivid, my emotions are heightened, sound are sharper, and I know that God is acting through me by the power of his presence inside me...Thank you for the reminder my brother.
I can see the holy spirit moving in him too
I started to go to my church ( also Ortodox) two years ago, before that I knew very little about my religion and I almost never vent there. Now I am attending services regularly and learning more and more, and I am so happy to be there. Your videos have been very helpful to me and I like your channel. Thank you very,very much!!! 💙💙💙
I feel like I could watch this 20 more times and learn something new each time. Brilliant work!
My wife's friends had dreams about her being pregnant a few days before we found out...and that was for both our kids three years apart. Crazy.
Well dreams are of a different realm. The same realm of which I think our imagination and thought process comes from. It's really interesting that we can think like we do inside our minds without seeing it with our own eyes. It's very simple and in my opinion a good explanation on what's more going on. Too science imagination and consciousness is anomaly that can be explained. Just like how science cant explain what happens after death. So in my opinion consciousness is a spirtual happening that is constant within our mind. We know what dmt is but we dont understand how it works and yet it's in all of us and releases when we die. Very interesting.
@@rushpatriot2866 DMT has been shown to be released when mice die, but not with humans. Still an intriguing theory; I do believe our consciousness is something supernatural and continues to live past our physical deaths.
that's why "symbol" and "devil" are absolute antonyms, which is something that modern people often fail to understand, both intellectually and in practice.
That's a great comment.
Thank you. I was stating the obvious that we often miss. Is there a way of contacting you through email, I am not sure if youtube still has that "inbox".
pageaujonathan at gmail dot com
I don't know what you mean by that.
@@kennyg1358 symbol is a bringing together, while the devil takes apart, I'spose.
This way of understanding the Bible grew my faith. Through you and Jordan Peterson I’ve let go of my lifelong pursuit to understand all the technical details of the Bible stories and my need to know of things “actually” happened. I’ve had seeds of these ideas for years, but they were never fleshed out, and I never had words for them until I discovered you two. Thank you for sharing this.
Synchronicities are some of the things that can not be explained "rationally" or factually. Those who have experienced know how incredible they are.
fr
Yes
dog what yea its called confirmation bias
A series of them lead me to this channel.
What does it mean to explain something factually?
I watched you when I was a Christian.
I watched you when I was agnostic.
I watch you now that I’m born again.
Awesome! 🎉
@@ALyingDogFacedPonySoldier I love your username lol
@@CAT-2323 Biden says I’m a liar...
@@ALyingDogFacedPonySoldier Biden is demented so don’t worry about it 😉
How is the first and your last point differ
I was just discussing about transubstantiation with my Christian Friend after communion; the metaphysical meeting the physical is a really a mundane event that happens all the time. Now coming to Orthodox Christianity it's a symbolic world? Now THAT's a fascinating idea
Oh for real. A few weeks ago I read Genesis and wept. The whole 'knowledge of good and evil' leading to suffering and death, and then the 'and the woman will have pains in birth' and then the migration / banishment scene. I mean, it is truly profound.
"like a hot knife through butter"
14:40 I was picking my nose right then. Synchronicity, case in point.
Just picked my nose around 5 mins
Lol 😂
This has become one of my favorite videos. I come back from time to time just to rewatch it. I had kind of similar view on symbolism, but this video articulated and expanded upon it perfectly.
Symbol - a place where 2 things meet, the intersection of the cross.
Awesooommee!!
Time and space
I have listened to this several times. I don't think I am smart enough to be Orthodox, but have faith I am learning. I feel like it is mind bending and I am not that kind of thinker naturally. Lord have mercy on my concrete thinking... I do love this gift of Orthodoxy!
4:51 Attention
5:40 Memory: string of coherence
6:53 Rambling
7:28 Orthodox Church ⛪️
8:34 The Nature of Existence is Symbolic
9:00 Pregnancy
3 dreams of pregnancy
10:24 Coalescence of Events
11:17 Reality works through ordering the chaos into a pattern
12:55 Hierarchy of Remembering
14:51 Memory at a Cosmic Level
16:13 How do I deal with that question?
17:15 Disciples on the road
18:31 The Culmination
lol...'rambling' at 6;53 - the whole thing is rambling!
You can tell the questioner got a good education at that little school at least. They were able to ask a very complicated question quite succinctly.
"Pathological, fedora-wearing atheist." I'm stealing that! 😂
man you have a way of just heading straight to the center of it that’s like no one I’ve ever heard before
I grew up in a literalist tradition but have always had and will always have questions. Sadly many people are threatened by learning more about different viewpoints. This was good stuff. I especially like the emphasis made that something being a symbol doesn’t negate its realness. Rather it’s a symbol because of what’s real. Thanks
Jonathan, thank you. I’m speechless. I’m beginning to see. ❤️
positivism has done so much damage to the possibilities of acquiring true knowledge, it's great to see people as you and professor Jordan finally opening the horizons of what is truth!
2 years or so after first watching it, I can confidently say that this video changed my life. Thanks, Jonathan. Glory to Jesus Christ.
I'm an atheist. And this was by far the most satisfying answer to this issue I ever heard from those of your kind, the very fist time I feel like I'm agreeing with a Christian person on the interpretation of the world surrounding us. A bit ironically, your approach is quite scientific, and it also reminds me "The name of the Rose" my favorite novel. Although I don't agree with Christianity on the fundamental level, or any religion to the point I dislike them, this is very inspiring argument. You certainly make Biblical discussions easy to understand for an atheist. Thanks for sharing.
"in search of the miraculous" PD Ouspensky
This is where you can choose to start to peek behind the façade
New subscriber. WOW I'm completely blown away by how profound and complex but plainly spoken answer you gave. Its impossible for man's mind to grasp the scope and perspective of the greatness of it all
This is amazing work, Jonathan! I'm really grateful for you putting this into such concise and compelling words.
I found this video about 4 months ago I believe. I was very confused and searching for answers. I wasn’t sure about Christianity. I listened to you but like barely the first time. I immediately casted judgement.
Then, today I watch this… it was profound. I stopped being stubborn about 1 month ago and read the gospels for myself. Head on… it didn’t take more than 2 books to really have me automatically wanting to accept Christ as Lord. But this video coming now is insane timing. Thank you for these answers..
This video was beautiful. I am going to memorize this explanation because it's perfect for explaining so much without going off the rails like I always do. God bless you good sir.
Ha sido un gran gusto encontrar tu canal Jonathan. Soy Mario de Guatemala, y a lo largo de estos 2 últimos años mi conciencia ha evolucionado hacia este tipo de entendimiento simbólico del mundo. Ahora tengo 22 años (recién cumplidos), y estoy feliz de haber podido toparme con gente que entiende la realidad a través del poder del símbolo. Gracias por hacer estos vídeos, son una motivación para mí y para todos aquellos que buscan aproximar a las personas hacia este tipo de entendimiento.
I’m a new subscriber and your videos are great!! I particularly like this one. Refreshing to hear your perspective.
You are a real Saint my brother. No words for how thankful i am for this video mate. God bless and thank you
God is beyond our understanding & reasoning...for a reason.
All will be revealed in God's time, not ours.
So beautifully explained...
Love your passion, attention to detail & your delivery.
God bless you Sir🙏💓🙏
PhoenixRising323 Susan Burnley best comment throughout this thread
This has mind blowing implications for what meaning and purpose is and what place it has in ones life.
A way to help the forensic type thinker understand what you are saying would be to consider that we ourselves are symbols, the image of God, we are nothing more than symbols of the true being. And our life is the passage from symbol to true being. We will become what we symbolize.
I just saw this. I’ve been watching Jonathan for the last year or so and I see this is from six years ago. Yes he looks younger! Yes, it’s probably good to show some of these because it kind of gives you a starting point for people who haven’t really heard him much. He is the best.
I'm a fan of Jordan Peterson, I'm reading books from his list, and I take the bible way more seriously now as an agnostic, compared to being a staunch atheist.
I do know that Jung talks about synchronicity, but I don't know a lot about his opinion on it. When Jonathan talks about his wife being pregnant and certain events lining up to it I couldn't help to be sceptical about it. To me it sounds like you can explain it away with saying it is a coincidence. But I sure felt a bit funny when I was still thinking of it, while picking my nose, and Jonathan said that you couldn't compare the analysis Biblical events to a daily event like picking your nose.
@@DaveReithmiller1983 me too man, I've come a long way. Still watching Jonathan's content :)
You are the smartest person I have ever heard. I wish we were friends so I could listen to you explain life, the universe, and everything all the time. Thank you brother for blessing us.
Just found your channel and subscribed.
In my view, focusing on the material subject we can see what it symbolizes if we really want to and are willing to open our mind to it, to be teachable. What the material subject symbolizes is a higher reality which actually causes the material subject and dwells within it like a soul dwells within it’s body. *[Got this perspective from Emanuel Swedenborg] IOW, the higher reality is the cause and the material subject is the effect. The effect is meant, imo, to be a “ladder” for one who wants to climb it to get to the cause. While each person is free to stay on the level of the effect, I believe the cause is the goal; the cause brings understanding and clarity. In school, we are not meant to stay in first grade but to move on to second grade then to third then on and on from one stepping stone to the next.
To me, a good illustration would be to compare the material subject to the literal meaning of a parable or story and the symbolic meaning to the inner, more real meaning. As an example, we could consider Jesus’s parable of the sower. The literal meaning has to do with agriculture but the spiritual meaning has to do with a person’s receptivity of God’s Word.
Peace and blessings to all :)
This is one of the most important, if not the most important, video I’ve ever seen/heard. Thank you so very much, Sir.
Jonathan, thank you for this video and congratulations on your and your wife's baby.
I've listened to this twice now and I don't quite follow your criticism or your confusion when people ask, "Did the resurrection of Jesus the Christ actually happen." I am one who also struggles with this claim, as it is the central claim of Christianity (perhaps it's on equal footing with the claim of the Incarnation. But without the resurrection, there would be no Christianity). But your criticism is that people are expecting our wanting a detailed description or forensic outline of the event. But I don't think that is the case for many of us.
The claim made by St. Paul and by the tradition as handed down by the apostles who also staked their lives on this claim was that Jesus IS risen and that this claim is not that his Spirit lives on, but that he was raised in a 'glorified body.' So it was a bodily resurrection. And I think many, including myself, who ask is the resurrection symbolic or physical, are really asking if there was an actual bodily resurrection.
I get your point that symbolism is deeply real, or as JBP points out, it is 'meta-real' or 'hyper-real.' And I get that we experience our world symbolically and that as we move from our idiosyncratic symbolism we move to a cosmic symbolism. This echoes what Jung said (I think it was Jung, but it may have been Joseph Campbell): Myth is a communal dream, while dreams are private myths.
But the question is that even though reality coalesces with memory and attention and consciousness on a cosmic scale, did Christ actually rise from the dead.
Actually I thought Jonathan answered that yes Jesus did bodily resurrect; but understanding that (even as an) event in literal historical terms was not possible.
14 mins onwards. Absolute gold. Thanks
Symbolism is the most primitive written forms of instinctual apperception of the basic values of living . It is a material representation of immaterial qualities and functions. A deeper mysterious doorway of experiences.
congrats on the baby, love your chats with Jordan
Simply brilliant. Thank you Jonathan!
Dude... I just came to the realization of how our focus determines our receptive capacity a couple days ago, but I've been having trouble on how to put that into words... You helped me out man. Thanks!
As far as I am concerned, just about every thing that Peterson says, is fundamentally Christian. I think that by listening to him you can better understand God. As a believer myself, I see God and Christ in most of what he says.
This is the first video of yours I watched and I immediately fell in love with your content, I also subscribed your channel. Great work man, all your videos are awesome and I like how you are upgrading Jordan Peterson´s conception of symbolism. Keep up your great job :)
20:22 Nice touch at the end, where we tend to "RIP" about a departed, you usually use "memory eternal" so, bringing that in touch with the Resurrection of Christ is good theology.
Wow...this is crazy, because just a couple of hours ago, I was thinking to myself how to better improve my memory recall. I was thinking about how come I couldn't retrieve certain past events from the memory archive of my mind, why was I forgetting, and what could I do to remember and recall these events whenever I needed them. I thought about looking up videos on how I could improve my memory. These thoughts eventually subsided in my mind, but then- hours later-I come across your video in my UA-cam recommendation feed. And I didn't click on it because I thought it had something to do with remembering stuff, I clicked on it because I thought I could gain some more insight onto genesis. But here you are, talking about how to remember things better, and the importance therein. Not only that, but the example you used (about your newborn), is very similar to what I now just went through. Your experiences regarding your wife's pregnancy wasn't a coincidence and neither is this. In fact, I will see this as God telling me that what you're saying holds validity, so then, I shall surely remember this!
(And on top of this, your name is Jonathan; and MY name is Jonathan too! It's even spelled the same way, lol. Its nothing huge, but it's just the cherry on top 😊)
if you walk into a room and see a Tiger, our brain will record everything . But it will focus you on the tiger and omit everything else
When you try to remember walking into the room the brain will only show you the Tiger , the misconception exists that all the other recordings in that room are gone and not accessible
This is not true, you can access them and visit them and sit in them and walk around in them
But you have to convince your Thalamus that the Tiger is no longer the most important thing in that Room
You need to calm your Thalamus down and the Thalamus is not fooled by language , so language cannot be used
Its our over association with the dividing separating detached left PFC the imaginary sense of individuality that prevents us being calm enough to see past the Tiger
and PS some Tigers are so scary that the Thalamus locks the memory of the Tiger incident away and prevents the imaginary idea of self from even knowing that it once met a Tiger and its here that everything becomes meaningful
In the end, the need to cling to certain beliefs and creed is a clear evidence of the ego seeking security and struggling with uncertainty. So many people identify strongly with a set of beliefs, "I AM that", and need to immerse in an already preconceived representation of the world as told by some "authority", as is (an example being the litteralists and a lot of "religious" people). The symbols of Enlightenment are everywhere in the bible, yet a majority of people are completely blind, asleep to them because of their need to enforce a psychological security and stay cozy by not shaking up their world view. On the opposite, those who see easily the meaning of the symbols can understand how "unchristian" such persons are. Why is it so important to *associate* with a doctrine? The awaken one sees these patterns of wanting to cling to ideas, beliefs, identity, etc and knows how it is strangling the power and intelligence of the self, so he learns to breath out. In my opinion, if you understand deeply the meaning of some of the biblical symbols, one consequence is that you don't need to call yourself a christian, and most importantly you move on and start living.
The very first symbol is Sheep, Wolves and Shepard's
YOU, sir, just gave me air to breathe.
I,m a big fan of bart eihrman (splchk). I always found it odd that his studies led him to atheism. I read Misquoting Jesus , and it didn't challenge my faith, but kind of informed it.. He's such a great scholar,(preeminent IMO) and really cleared up problematic areas of the new testament. He also felt it necessary to write a book detailing the evidence that Jesus a real person. A genuine historical figure. If nothing else.
So grateful that I was introduced to you via the videos you were part of in Dr. Peterson's Biblical Series - Now I have yet another playlist in the making, this one specifically your videos and "Pageau/Peterson overlap content, etc...(with others, including your brother" - Thanks so much. PS - pleased to see, during my short glance at the comments section as the video was starting, some non-traditional UA-cam comments sections activity. I just found out about you, your book, etc., last night, so I'm about to see if the book has been published yet - I hope the anticipation of it doesn't raise cortisol levels if it isn't published yet - I'm sure an astounding number of people are very anxious to get it - and I do mean get it - I'm sure this will be one I want a hard copy of (I want a print copy of everything, but.... thank God for audiobooks as well. I'll stop rabbiting on now... Thank you for your work, and punching that non-existent clock, which writers (who aren't cut out to have no clock to punch, usually) must force themselves to find, with no help from those pills from "Limitless". Thanks again and best regards to you and yours, grats on the family, I see you have one from the glance I took at the comments already.
"in search of the miraculous!" PD Ouspensky
We left this stuff just for people like you start here
With regard to the arguments for historicity of the resurrection of Christ, check out arguments by William Lane Craig, if you want more analytical approach.
He is terrible.
WLC is a beast. His scholarship is astounding.
Yeah, he’s pretty good.
Kalam justification for the belief in God explained here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument
Depends on whether you buy the idea that the purely physical, non- living world must have a motivation to exist. The only evidence of any ulterior motivation lies with living beings - which are fundamentally motivated to reproduce.
You can chose to believe that God is a symptom of life ( we explain our motivation to reproduce as being our 'fathers' motivation handed on to us), or you can believe life is a symptom of God (all of reality is spewed forth by the great motivational force).
Either way, He seems to be a part of what we experience as reality, and must also, by nature of him being superior to all, he must transcend reality.
So no effective difference ?
EXCEPT... if He doesn't exist if/when life doesn't exist, that is if He is a symptom of life, then He cannot be transcendent of the physical world.
Jung referred to Him as "the God figure'.
Unable to make a decision or assumption either way, Jung acknowledged God as an intrinsic part of the human experience - it being pointless to deny Him and useful (to say the least) to have Him around for many many reasons.
Sir, what you are doing is important beyond description, we live in the most prosperous time in human history but we find ourselves more lost then ever, weve adopted this idea that salvation is purely material and that we are purely physical beings that weve forgot what animates us and inturn lost our souls in the process and what you and Dr Peterson are doing is resurrecting our souls again, God bless you sir
C.S.Lewis saw that the gospel story was a myth but was also true - a true myth. Why should not the resurrection story be the same - a symbol but also true? After all, history itself teaches that Jesus actually lived and was crucified; why should the historical part stop before the resurrection?
Great pfp. Great album
@@obdeisibcirrus993 My goodness - you recognised that from such a tiny picture??! Well done! (and, yes, you're right: great album)
This is really beautiful. I still find myself drawn to a sort of mereological nihilism because of the very fact that it is OUR attention which organizes reality as such. Being-in-itself still seems very much like a vapor to me, rather than the fundament of what is. This leads me to a sort of reductionism, where those patterns are the result of what is below, rather than what is above.
I still think this is one of the very best formulations of the Christian perspective I've ever heard, and it makes me want to buy into the totality, but I still find myself impeded by those previously articulated hang-ups.
I have recently started to have an appreciation of the idea that the God that created this unbleivelably complicated universe is unlikely to be easily explained by a simple religion. It seems more reasonable to expect the designer of the universe to in fact be MORE complicated than the universe He made, and as a result, to expect the Bible to be understood simply literally is unreasonable.
God bless you for this video. Never had explanation this deep.
Wow, beautiful analysis brother. Downloaded and subscribed.
So Jesus is the embodiment of an ideal that pre-existed before him. I.e. The logos.
The thing I find hard to square with Jesus and Christianity in general, is that Jesus was I think quite clearly an "enlightened" being (for anyone who has read the eastern sages the similarities are too many to number) but either he or the people around him who wrote down the stories struggled to articulate this anywhere near as fully as the eastern sages. It's very difficult to know what he said exactly of course because as you point out in this video, the stories have heavily symbolic/mythic properties which means they are not to be taken as literal history as we think of it today.
Mainstream Christianity worships the logos, which was projected onto the person of Jesus because he fit the pattern. But enlightenment is about putting an end to opposites and time, an end to resistance of and striving for the betterment of the present moment and instead living in deep acceptance of what is, as it arises spontaneously in Consciousness. But logos is about speaking and changing the world and improving it, which is a biological/cultural/moral activity. So I feel the edifice of Christianity, which is worship of the logos has hijacked the hidden enlightenment message of Jesus. Other words for what I mean by enlightenment are unity consciousness, nondual reality, realisation of the Self etc.
This is my own theory though I'm sure others have said similar things.
It could of course be that Jesus was not enlightened but that later people inserted those phrases into his mouth as they wrote the stories. But my gut says this is less likely.
Jonathan Pageau hello, thanks for the response. I shouldn't have mentioned only the eastern sages and you are quite right to bring up the western Christian and Jewish mystics - they all point to the same thing, I simply meant that he points to a truth that is found in all cultures unlike the logos which is the improving principle of the west, or the principle that has made the west so successful. So I don't mean this is an east versus west thing, but rather a mystic versus moral/social/cultural/biological (I.e. Logos) interpretation of Christ. As you say, the way the story is told points strongly to the logos interpretation, and that is what the titanic cultural and intellectual framework of Western thought found its climax in up to that point; but there are certain things he said e.g. "think no more of the morrow" or "before Abraham was, I am" which are totally at odds with conventional logos morality (the former) or make almost no sense in a non mystic context (the latter - the mainstream apologetics for it are laughable!). Another clue is that true gnostic gospels are absolutely rife with mystic material and it's very telling to me that they were rejected from the canonical bible. I guess it's my personal struggle to see how a moral principle aimed at improving society and the individual (logos) can be squared with a conception of reality that does not recognise time, the reality of subject and object dichotomy etc. which is surely the ultimate truth that the Christian mystics also point to. I haven't read Meister Eckhart yet, have been meaning to for a while, and you seem to suggest he manages this, so I'll get going on it. Is there a particular writing you recommend?
And note I'm not denigrating either logos or mystic truth - they are both true, depending on your frame of reference and end goal. But I think they are at odds.
Ok, thanks for this. Very complex stuff that needs unpacking here - I'll have to think about it, but fear I need more context on the definitions of the ideas you put forward here. I of course understand your one post, one response rule - it must be a nightmare to keep up.
For others, please note that I wasn't saying that the gnostic gospels are explicitly teaching "unity consciousness" "nonduality" etc. (which I don't think you thought I was saying) but rather that they contain a lot more of that sort of language than the canonical gospels (which also contain some, but less). And of course its not the only reason they are not canonical - the world as evil is probably one of the reasons for instance.
So when mentioning the gnostic texts in reference to nonduality I'm talking about passages like this from the Gospel of St. Thomas:
Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and above as the below
and when you make the male and the female into a single one,
then you shall enter the Kingdom
And reflecting again on why I mentioned the eastern sages only in my first post, I think it was subconsciously because many of the important writings predate Jesus, and so are much older than the Christian mystics (necessarily of course!) and the Jewish ones I know about too, and of course the Sufis too. Interestingly it is quite possible that Jesus would have met Buddhists when he was growing up, which is not to say that he was a Buddhist, but that the east and west were not self contained worlds and crossed over in the middle east. At that time the Buddhists (and Hindus) probably had the most articulated version of mystic truth. People have come to the same conclusions all across the world separately through introspection, but it is an interesting idea to posit that Jesus might have met some sages in his 20s (western or eastern!) which helped him clarify his thinking.
Since I still have questions, if anyone else can help to point me as to the non contradiction between Logos and Mysticism (as outlined above) that would be great. My understanding of Logos is largely the Jordan Peterson view, which might mean I am missing other important parts of its meaning, that he has not mentioned.
Just had a thought - the fact that Jesus the man "fit the pattern" as I said above or was recognised as a sublime embodiment of the Logos, and was also as I claim "enlightened" should tell me that these things are not in opposition. BUT, I can't figure out why not given the above arguments... Time for some Meister E.
Christ is the embodiment of Kek (Keku, Kekui) who is the bringer of light (enlightenment, revelation and rebirth, resurrection) from darkness (the abyss, the unknown world.)
archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/282/mode/2up
www.cityofsmoke.com/archives/285
hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib70
Jonathan Pageau -
First of all, thank you for acknowledging the oppression and plight of the Kekistani Diaspora. In these times of anti-Kekism by the establishment media and false narrative creators, it is refreshing to gain acknowledgement from such a wise man as yourself.
May Kek's messianic powers and the words of his prophet Saint Joseph Campbell continue to fill your soul with wisdom and creativity. Those carvings.....dude, you are a freakin bad ass. That's Kek right there boy.
I read your very interesting interpretation of St. Christopher and I want to tell you in a strange twist of synchronicity, I grew up on St. Christopher Street as a kid. Praise be to Kek, King of Synchronicity.
Unfortunately, much of what you wrote acted as confirmation bias for my original statement.
In the Ogdoad, Nu is the ruler of the WATERY abyss.
Kek is the mentor of the WATERY abyss
The path to revelation is aided by dog-headed helpers, the bearers of the Messiah
The Dog-headed Anubis is the guide into the afterlife (salvation)
Odyessus's cyclops is the eye of Horus.
EVERY journey must enter and emerge from (cross) the WATERY abyss
You already know this as you say, "Man as center, as mediator between heaven and earth, has two horizons, one leading inward and upward to the Angelic realms and finally to the Uncreated, and one leading outward and downwards towards the rest of creation and ultimately reaching primordial Chaos."
Pageau, Jonathan, "The Dog-Headed Icon of St-Christopher (pt.2): Encountering Saint-Christopher" Aug 26, 2013
The WATERY abyss ruled by Nu is literally primordial Chaos but it is also the symbolic abyss in every man's soul. Revelation is on the horizon. For without revelation and rebirth, one must suffer eternity in the WATERY abyss (primordial chaos)
Have you looked into the Ogdoad and the lineage from Nu to Atum (Adam) to Ra? Please read about the Ogdoad here and the variants of each deity, including Kek.
archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/282/mode/2up
I had not considered the connection between Canaan and Caine. I see what you are trying to do there with the K beginning and N endings. A little Kabbalah magic against KekistaN huh. Stick to canons and carvings kid. Don't start messin with the Kabbalah. Kekistanis are the Kings of Kabbalah and weaponized autism and I happen to be a Imperial Frog of the Kekistani Kabbalah Keepers.
I wonder if you have pondered Canaan's significance as the FOURTH son. What is the connection between the fourth son and the Ogdoad?
Consider this passage you wrote when reading The Destruction of Mankind by Ra. (The Book of the Heavenly Cow)
"Before the fall it is said Man was clothed in glory, and similarly he had access to the glories of God. The fall “hardened” those glories, transformed them into limits. There are two limits appearing to man, one limit on each “horizon”. The inward limit is the cherub with a flaming sword preventing the entry into paradise, and the outward limit is that layer of skin, that limit of corporality or animality blocking our complete dissolution into the chaos of death. "
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Heavenly_Cow
Nu was also a frog. The Ogdoad represents four "mothers and fathers" or attributes of existence.
The four males as frogs and the females as serpents. Very relevant to this topic of symbolism.
The frog is the natural food of the serpent. The serpent is ever present in the Bible as is the frog.
The serpent is the mother. The Ouroboros. The cyclical nature of life. Cannibalism!
Caine, Canaan, Cannibal
Wait a minute! I am a Hamite Kekistani. Your analysis seems awful anti-Canaanite for no apparent reason.
Did you look into the ritual "The Cross of the Frog" by Aleister Crowley?
What is the symbolism of the ritual?
why does it reference the Apocalypse of St. John the Divine?
Why did Crowley name a frog Jesus of Nazareth?
Thelema is based on the Ogdoad.
Was Crowley a nut case who spun magnificent tales of BS or did he discover the Kabbalah?
You touched on so many variant figures and stories in your St. Christopher analysis, I hope I hit the important ones.
Emergence from the watery abyss
Canaan being the fourth son
the correlations between Atum (Atem) and Adam
The fall of Man and the Destruction of Mankind by Ra
The dog-headed Anubis guide of the afterlife (salvation)
The eye of Horus.
Links were already posted in a separate post.
I think this video is incredible, having the power to completely shift a person’s understanding of what is real. Amazing.
16:40 and yet Paul states very strongly in 1 Cor 2:4-5 and many other places that it was precisely through experiencing literal supernatural events the way the a witness to a murder would witness it, that he spread the faith. This does not preclude these actions from being symbolic, but their relevance supercedes the symbolism.
Your comment is hilarious. Read that whole chapter again. I don't think it means what you think it means. In the whole chapter he speaks of the revelation of hidden mysteries, "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived", he talks about knowing the thoughts of God revealed by the Spirit and speaks of having the mind of Christ. Hilarious that you would interpret such a lofty text by using the word "literal supernatural events" as if those three words put together were not sufficiently contradictory in themselves.
Thank you for your reply.
I reread the passage. The "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I'm using RSVCE) is for the "mature" but when he first "came to" the Corinthians they were immature like a baby unable to eat meat as St. Paul says in 3:1-3. So the "demonstration of the Spirit and power" is not the same thing as the "hidden wisdom." In fact is it juxtaposed with wisdom, a worldly wisdom yes but still wisdom. The reason that Paul "came to" them with "demonstration of the Spirit and power" and "not lofty words or wisdom" is made clear in chapter 1:22 "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". He came to them like a Jew in order to stand in contradiction to the teaching of the philosophers, after all just before St. Paul came to Corinth in Acts 18:1ff he had just been embarrassed by Greek philosophers in Athens Acts 17:16-34. Therefore these "demonstration of the Spirit and power" are signs like a Jew would demand. What kind of sign would a Jew demand? Well according to Mk 8:11-12 it is a supernatural event to show his ability to master the laws of the universe and in John 4:46-54 the literal healing of a dying son. When they come looking for signs in John 6 Jesus says they are interested in filling their stomachs, that was the draw for the immature, only then does he try to draw them into the hidden wisdom of the mature.
I also want to add I mean no disrespect by my first comment on this video (I don't know if you read it), I just get frustrated with double speak amongst what we Catholics call Modernists. It's ok if that is how you feel about it or if you don't feel that way, I just wish people would be explicit on this topic.
I believe Christ is risen from the dead according to the scripture. I hope that is enough for you.
I certainly respect what I imagine in charity is your unwillingness to put the mysteries of God in a box, and that it is very likely limiting your ability/willingness to speak because of course we speak in delineated categories. Nor do I want to push you beyond what you feel morally comfortable with, there have been one of two Catholic dogmas to which I have assented to like this (as in I don't know what that means but I think that it is true), and I think that you mean it with no intended subterfuge.
My concern is that there are many Protestants and Catholics (or at least those who call themselves Protestants and Catholics) who would say those very words but mean nothing more than "The Church/members thereof is/are less morally evil than it/they has/have been in the past" or in the case of Hegel something like "Humanity's self-awareness of the connection of the human mind to the laws of the universe continues to be synthesized in the collective consciousness". Those two things (esp. the first) may very well be symbolic meanings of the Resurrection and in that sense "what the Resurrection means" and the Resurrection may be their efficient cause perhaps even formal cause, but they are not "the event". And as far as I can tell it is the event that St. Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15.
This one might be my favorite. I’m on a quest to listen to every podcast over this next year. But if they are anything like this. Wow!
That was very Impressive. Subscribed.
Thank you for this video and please don't stop.
Very profound. Thank you, Mr. Pageau :)
I’m new to Jonathan’s postings and maybe I’ll find his answer to my biggest question as I continue following him. But, what I want to know is, what does he think about the patterns and stories of other religions? Does the same apply with regards to other religions?
All those signs and coincidences re: a new born child. Awesome! I was given a premonition one year in advance that my father would die. (and I'm not a mystical person) It's something very real. I've been getting these "vibes" about my own death lately. I'm trying to get my house in order.
Love your talk Jonathan. God bless your efforts and you. (I got steered in your direction through Paul VanderKlay, and Jordan Peterson)
How are you doing now man?
@@ThiagoCT9 Still alive. :)
@@kennorthunder2428 Still Alive?
@@surfbirdie5759 I am. Yes
It's so hard to listen to you because you're so nice to watch and I love the way you speak. Then, when I finally do grasp what you're saying... it's even more intense!
Can you recommend a good introductory book on icons and iconography?
those that know don't reveal those that don't know write books about guessing
The answers were left by the ancient's in your cortices echoing Mum to daughter eternally
but The Roman Slavers taught you to focus on lies written in books and that those words are the literal truth
Those Slavers EH! so simple to discredit a teaching, that needs to be encoded as part of the lesson , to teach the children in schools that words are to be taken literally
This is why I subscribed to your channel! I am I a Christian and in seminary but I also love symbolism and it has opened my eyes and made life “magical” as you say. I am forever thankful for gentlemen such as yourself, Jung, Peterson, etc.
Thank you and may God bless all you di
I think of the Bible the same way as I think about Shakespeare. Did Romeo and Juliette truly exist as two lovers from rival families who killed themselves? No. But did the pattern occur, family feuds causing needless death? Absolutely. That event did not occur once to an individual family, but millions of times in different forms across the world.
I think that distinction is the key to a modern take on religion. There's no question that the fundamentalists, teaching that the Bible is literally true and that the stories represent individual events, are doing a major disservice to society. But there is incredible value to the symbolic view that treats these stories as patterns.
Elisha except it’s not. You’re literally telling me that Genesis makes sense according to what we actually know about the world today? That man was created from dust and woman from man’s own body? That there was a talking serpent? That we were one of the first creatures on this planet? (a planet that is billions of years old) You don’t believe that many things are symbolic, metaphorical and simply exaggerated as human beings who believed in God wrote the Bible, not God himself? Who would have been around to see God do all that in Genesis? You think he whispered in Moses’ ear exactly how he created everything? When? And why? He’s God, why would he even share that? He doesn’t need to, he’s God, he’s too big and too great. To think we know everything there is to know about the creator of the world is absurd, and to think we’ll find that in a book written by humans is even more absurd. Yes, the Bible is a book with great stories that convey God’s greatness, some of them I believe have truth, but to believe everything happened exactly like that and that it’s the literal word of God... I’m scared of how unintelligent so many human beings are.
There’s a difference between making the Bible fit into your world view and having the Bible be your world view.
Anyone can interpret the Bible anyway they want but at the end there can only be one absolute truth.
In my opinion, the less literally you take the Bible the less meaning it becomes to an individuals life.
Did God really create everything in 7 days? I don’t see why not, is he not God? The problem now becomes scientism as a religion of itself and world view, that contradicts literal Bible events. And you can keep going further and further.
Did Jesus exist in physical form? Is there really a need for repentance for salvation or is it just a suggestion to living a proper moral life?
I see a struggle for people who don’t accept the Bible literally to dance around anything they want because it’s all made up and not God’s word, picking and choosing what they want to subscribe to and what they would rather throw away.
It gets difficult cause Jesus was a real person. I suppose I don’t believe he walked on water. And that was more of a symbol for the miracle he was. A poetic way of talking about the prophet. The son of God title to me is more metaphorical than real. I don’t think God gives birth like that. Not do I think it would be moral for a God to impregnate a woman. Pretty rapey.
David Keith How can you accept the story of Jonah and the Whale literally though? I suppose that’s where I would make a point of debate. There’s a reason people can’t take it as literally the word of God.
Translation... King James Version... I mean it literally says on the book it’s a mans version. How can it be Gods direct word but King James Version of it?
It seems silly.
Elisha I will fully admit I do fear men. Probably more than God. I think the fact I didn’t believe in God most of my teenage years impacts that though. The fear of God was almost taken from me so to speak.
Why do I find your videos all the time??? Its like I stress out over a topic and then bam! Even word for word sometimes the titles are the same as what I am thinking about
3 phonecalls ? 3 children? Illuminati confirmed
omglolzbbqsauce *cue X Files music...
Exactly
If by which you mean God is the Illuminati😜
Only God could have manifested all those synchronisities.
And you omglolz have 33 likes on your comment so yes indeed you must be one too ;)
PhoenixRising323 Susan Burnley You don’t understand God’s role.
WoW! I just found you, two days ago! Have watched 4-5 of your videos. Thank you, I often felt lonely in my faith. So much more to literal and symbolic, it is about application in the simplest of ways every day….as you do! Merci
💕🙏🕊🌏🌎🌍🕊🙏💕
Just to be clear: to the question of do you believe Jesus was a historical individual who physically rose from the dead at a particular time (in the way atheists and most people think of it), your answer is no?
You answer yes to whether you the "event" occurred, but your definition of the event is different from the way most people conceive it. When the question is asked, most people take the event to mean the Jesus and Resurrection as described in the Bible, taken literally.
I love your content, but I think it would be helpful to make clear that your answer is no, to the way the question is commonly understood. Otherwise, many people will walk away feeling confused, and the secular types will accuse you of obfuscation.
I believe you misunderstood what he said. From what he says he does believe the resurrection is a literal event. His mention of it was saying it's not described. It's not told the exact model of how it happens, and he continues that it doesn't need that type of forensic description. And the description isn't important. But it is taken as a real historical event.
@@isaiahpoe Precisely, and to use our relatively modern ways of doing history is at odds with how the stories are meant to be perceived. Yes, Christ did ressurect, but to boil it down to a set up observable factors such as time and place, and to know the intimate details of how it happened all misses the point. In fact, you reduce the Truth to something much meaner and in essence less true. We cannot expect the world and the eternal to conform to our utterly finite and limited ways of perception.
It all comes down to the meaning of words in the context of Christianity. As Jonathan said in other videos, it's all symbolic. It's never litteral. It's never metaphorical. It's only symbolic. What does that mean? It means that the event itself happened symbolically. And it's still happening right now as we speak and it has always happened. It's timeless. There is no physicality to it. The Bible is the story of how our brain created the world we live in. It's the story of how an ape became aware of itself. It's a story on how to behave in the context of our evolution from animals to something more. It's a praise to humanity and it's a social tool.
So, did Jesus rose from the dead?
It's all packed like a software is compiled.
What is the meaning of "Jesus"?
What is the meaning of "rose"?
What is the meaning of "death"?
What is the meaning of "event"?
What is the meaning of "body"?
It's a program made out of a complex set of subroutines called "jesus", "rose", "death", "event", "body", etc, and only the combination of all of those makes up the whole story. The more you unpack each of these subroutines, the more you understand what is the true meaning of resurrection.
Here is an anlogy: When you open spotify and play a Mozart piece, did spotify really played mozart music?
It's a complex system of Software + Speakers + Recording + Rewriting of scores + Mozart writing the music + what is creativity + etc etc
You can unpack eveything and then, maybe you'll have the full answer. So, did spotify just played some Mozart music? You can say yes, it happened, you heard it. Or you can be cynical and say that no, it wasn't really mozart, it's only a program and it wasnt real instruments in front of you, we can't know if the song was played perfectly, etc etc etc. But our brain doesn't work like that. It makes generalisation so we can make something useful out of all the information we have.
It's all symbolic. Never litteral. Never metaphorical.
I believe the Bible is written in a way that you can get something out of every level of unpacking. New atheists are mad at the first degrees of interpretation because our society (in it's own first degree of interpretation) has nothing to do with the societies back then. But when you digg a little (into both our own values and the Bible messages), the story is still the same. Nothing has changed. We are still humans. And that's the story of the Bible.
Have you read the Bible? How is it a story of evolution if God created man in his image?
One can believe man created God, or, God created man. How can nothing create something?
Your comment is like me saying Charles Darwin’s book is about salvation by faith in Christ? You can interpret the Bible however you please but at the end of the day there is one absolute truth. One person believes when we die there will be ‘nothing’ and another believes in a judgement; both cannot exist.
@@AlexxTehGreat The judgement at the end of someone's life is real. If you do bad things, people will most likely remember you as a bad person. If you do great things, people will most likely remember you as a good person. Men didnt created God nor did God created men. God IS men. Men IS God. God is the SYMBOL of what humankind is.
When "God" judges you at the end of time, it's MANKIND who judges you. It's just a reminder that you should do good in life. Hell is a concept added to christianity that was "stolen" from ancient Egyptian religion. Much like the date of birth of Jesus, corresponding to winter equinoxe... it's all old school religion based on the study of the movement of stars in the sky adapted to the new christian religion. It's all symbolic, never litteral. You will not "litterally" burn in hell and feel physical pain after you die... but God (humankind) might
Thank you Jonathan for putting your work on the internet.
"In things like movies and videos games, the story of the resurection is every where if you can see it"
LEGEND OF ZELDA BREATH OF THE WILD.
The hero literally wakes up after 100 years in the "Cave of Resurrection"
I never played it. But a friend said it was one of, if not the best game
ever!
The whole human narrative is echoing eternally via the cortices Mum to daughter
Its the Roman and Arabian Slavers that taught you to ignore the wives tales as stuff and nonsense and that truth is written
Yes the Slavers are the ones who taught us what to believe
Slavers , ill say it again Slavers
You reminded me of these verses: “One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. They told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.” Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.”
John 20:24-28 NLT
I was an atheist for a while. Recently I had come back around to spirituality but I still held some skepticism against Christianity. My entire view of the bible changed when a friend from college told me that the bible ought not to be read literally. He personally loves the idea of the bible being "the best story ever told" because that phrase reminds him that whether or not the events in the bible are historically accurate, they still have meaning beyond their historical accuracy. He opened my eyes to that it doesn't matter whether or not Jesus was actually real because whats important is that the story of Jesus is real.
So your friend is praying to someone he doesn't think is real?
gshooting Saying that god is real is such a loaded statement. God exists beyond real and unreal. God is beyond our comprehension. Trying to say that god is real is just as inaccurate as saying god isn’t real. The nature of humans and our words will never be enough to say exactly what the nature of god is. And I do not know if my friend prays but I’ll speak for myself when I say that I don’t see prayer as an act that one does but rather a a state of mind that one comes into.
If you read the Bible though, then you know that Paul warns that denying Jesus’ resurrection basically makes the faith useless. He wasn’t being symbolic. None of them were. It really does matter that Jesus is real, otherwise it really is “cleverly invented stories.” Otherwise, Christ died for nothing and you’re still in your sins because you don’t believe that he actually removed them…that you’re still your own source of righteousness. That tendency toward hyper spiritual interpretation isn’t Christianity, but Gnosticism.
thankyou jonathan. i may well join in with one of your classes on the new university! all best wishes for that. the four levels are also used in astrology and in understanding and indeed using its symbolic world for purposes of revealing divine wisdom. its amazing how all these worlds of truth meet no matter what particular lens we come to them. Richard
Could this be why dreams feel so real? They appear to be almost pure symbology; in hindsight irrational, but at the time, feel more real than waking experience.
Is this another example of the symbolic world being more real than material reality?
little Toe Thanks!
look into Carl Jung's work on dreams. They are often very heavily archetypal, kind of the psychological equivalent of a dive into the Unknown World of the Hero's Journey, or the unconscious, to fight dragons, confront death, and discover hidden treasures…
Cody McKibben I'm 9 volumes in, my brother ❤
Jung said you should treat dreams as things that actually happened to you 'cause, well, they did.
Read Carl Jung. He inspired me to write down my dreams and it's only now, a month after I had them, that I am able to understand them. They also work in series. It's weird because understanding them hits you like an epiphany.
Excellent description of biblical symbolism. Much appreciated. Thank you.
Congratulations on the baby, what a blessing.
As an Orthodox Christian I Truly believe Orthodox is the true faith and is the only Solution for the Western Man, I do hope your listeners understand the impact of the Orthodox Church on your worldviews and consider converting themselves. We in the West have a bad habit of taking beliefs yet divorcing them from their source, cutting a flower from it's roots. We don't give credit where credit is due and I hope people understand credit is due to Yourself and the Orthodox Church with it's 2000 years of tradition that has helped shape your views.
Thanks for your heard work.
In Christ
Except Orthodoxy broke that 2000 years of Tradition over 900 years ago in the Great Schism. Remember that Christ built His Church on Peter, and that Chair of Peter (previously Chair of Moses, so the Catholic Church is actually about 3500 years old) has been passed down for generations, just as bishops lay hands. You Orthodox are so close to the truth; you have actual priests with apostolic succession, and the Real Presence..but you lack authority.
Check this out: ua-cam.com/video/faIB-sOBDKk/v-deo.html
Thanks I’d never thought about the resurrection in this way it’s really Helpful
Mr. Pageau,We cannot treat the symbolism of Genesis the same as the narrative telling of the gospels and the resurrection. While one could give much space to saying Adam may not be a literal Adam, because of the content, the age of the story, etc. The gospel narrative is much, much closer to a crime scene than your give credit. Jesus and his resurrection account is not a metaphor, symbolic or psychotic experience. It was real, physical, in the domain of time and space and yet outside that domain as well, as understood by his risen, glorified body that could eat, appear and walkthrough walls. If you believe the Gospel accounts of the risen Jesus were imaginations of what they believed, then so be it. They are NOT, however, in the same nuance that Peterson projects Genesis stories, that being traditions of being and logos. In essence, the coming of Christ, literally, is the fulfillment of that archtype, prophetic fulfillment, and transcendent reality. With the coming of Jesus, the archtypes are gone because they are fulfilled. Note the whole OT sacrificial system that pointed to the sins of Israel being cleansed by a sacrificial lamb were fulfilled by the ultimate sacrificial lamb, the real blood of Jesus was spilled, not symbolically... though the OT symbolism is seen as intended. So the question becomes, Why not interpret scripture as literal where it suggests and symbolic where it suggests? To have to force all scripture into non-literal symbolism is as bad as all literal, true? As humans, we want the benefits of truth, but not the price to have it. Jesus told the parable about the man who found a large pearl and sold all he had to get it. We must sell off our ideas of human diety, skepticism of a holy God who judges, and pursue the person of God? My 2C, thanks for your thoughts.DR
I am equally frustrated by his ambiguity, but why can't they be both literal and symbolic. Like when I make love to my wife, I'm literally and symbolically giving myself to her. We are literally and symbolically being joined together. If the archetypes are fulfilled then why aren't they more real now than ever?
Jonty Campbell, and yet the logos behind the Christian mythos explicitly denies that this is merely the case. If it is true then Christianity is a fundamentally bad myth.
"mere" as in nothing more than. Myth is very important but something could be more than a myth, and thus not merely a myth. My wife is a great mother and a great lover. Both of those are of fundamental importance and not be trifled with, but she could be merely a good mother, implying not that being a mother is not important but that she is not also the other thing.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "bad meaning...?" Is it how could a myth be bad or how is this myth bad?
Jonty Campbell, Your two comments are incongruous. If Christianity were simply a myth to the point that "whether God exists or not is not a useful question" or "You won’t gain any new converts by treating the bible [such as the Resurrection] as ACTUAL, historical occurrences" the Christianity is a mere myth.
I'm aware that you are using myth to mean story, and behind every myth is a logos (meaning/moral/abstract principle behind the particulars). For example that habitable order is formed out of chaos is a logos of the Gen 1 myth. Although if I remember correctly he doesn't point out that mythoi have logoi behind them, Jean Pierre Vernant is a good place to look to understand this distinction, although I expect you are either already familiar with it or else get it without needing extra reading (still he is quite good).
The problem is that an inextricable part of the logos behind the Christian myth is that the historical particulars matter. This is in direct contradiction to Greco-Roman Philosophy which held that God (assuming that is an adequate referent) did not even know that particulars existed. He was completely consumed by abstractions and particularity was at best an inferior necessity of the divine overflowing and at worst the positively evil result of pride. By contrast Christianity claims that God not only is aware of the particulars, but deeply loves them and acts intentionally (as Maimonides mockingly puts it as "the purpose of one who purposes -- I believe he is referencing Isaiah but I can't find the passage at the moment) in relation to them. It's for this reason that it is only the Christian Philosopher Boethius who begins asking if God can know the future. The idea that God even knew the present or past was absurd to the Pagan Philosopher.
You see this most fundamentally in the incarnation where the Logos become a particular historical person ("was made flesh" Jn 1), Who was born in a particular time and place ("In the days of King Herod . . .when Quirin′i-us was governor of Syria" Lk 1-2). He died a particular death and according to 1 Cor 15 rose a particular resurrection, without which "our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain" which He did amongst other reasons because He "loved [the particular, Paul of Tarsus] and gave himself for [the particular, Paul of Tarsus]" (Gal 2).
This is not only seen in the NT but also in the OT as well, where God calls a particular man (Abraham) who is asked to sacrifice his particular son (Isaac) and chooses a particular brother (Jacob) to create a particular people (Israel) over all the other peoples (gentiles). And this particular people awaited a particular Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) son of the Particular King (David) with his particular dynasty, which Messiah fundamentally taught them the Logos is an intentional servant of particular humans, indeed "the great lover of mankind" as the liturgy of John Chrysostom put it, which God is known from all the other gods because He is the God of those very particular men, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
So if "whether ANY religious figure ACTUALLY existed or not . . . is not a useful question" then Christianity is a fundamentally and deeply flawed mythos because it conveys a fundamentally false logos.
Jonty Campbell, 1. I'm aware that myth as a genre conveys meaning which is true regardless of whether or not the narrative itself is historically accurate. But it is the nature of the Christian myth that if its narrative does not also happen to be historically accurate then its profound "verity" is actually a falsity. For example, the profound verities of Rapunzel is something along the lines of: "In order for a girl who is in the grasp of an Oedipal mother to transition to being a woman she must be whisked away by an unruly man whom she civilizes through marriage and fatherhood," and that "the motivating factor of the Oedipal mother is the fear of losing her youth by become a grandmother." These two things can be true whether or not there ever was such a person as Rapunzel. However, one of the profound verities of the Christian myth is "The Divine is personally concerned with the lives of historically particular individuals." It conveys this verity through examples. If these examples are not historically accurate, indeed if the historicity is irrelevant, it puts the lie to this profound verity. This profound verity cannot be true unless the narrative is historically accurate. This profound verity is at the heart of the Christian myth; if Pageau does not realize this, and I fear he doesn't, then he is mistaken.
2. I suspect it is accurate to say that when logos meets chaos it orders it and the ordering of chaos is creation. I would point out though that in the story humans are made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are not the things which primarily speak order into chaos. There is a transcendent principal capable of speech such that by the mere act of speaking what He says happens. Our speech is creative only insofar as it mimics His, as an image (is in accord with reality or true). His speech is true by fiat, ours is true by mimesis. Also it might help you to look into the difference between logos endiathetos and logos prophorikos.