Symbolism Happens!
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- One of the criticisms I get is how by saying something is symbolic, I am somehow suggesting that it is not describing an event in the world. This stems from a deep misunderstanding of what symbolism is. Symbolism is not so much an arbitrary allegorical representation of something, but rather the very pattern by which we notice meaning.
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The music at the opening is Russian Eastern Overture, by Rimsky Korsakov.
I'm still listening to this video, but you made a statement that I don't think is entirely correct (though I don't think it's detrimental to your larger point). You said that the belief that Elijah would be the precursor to the Messiah was not rooted in the Old Testament, but merely a tradition.
Malachi 4:5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
Also, I just finished listening to your video, and I'm very grateful for your perspective. I've been a fiction writer full time for the last four years or so, and the deeper I get into the nature of story, the more I'm coming to a similar understanding of symbolism as you describe it. The "higher meaning" of stories that might not align 100% with a purely forensic truth, but actually can align with that truth if you're willing to look at the world through different lenses.
Thanks for this, not sure why I did not know that.
@@erichamilton1024 A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness.
- Alfred Korzybski, Science and Sanity, p. 58.
It just struck me right now, that Jordan B. Petersons book is called "Maps of Meaning" and how well it fits into this quote.
@@pu3he Yes! That's it. Once you find Korzybski, you unlock the secret to Peterson and many other authors. It's a shame general semantics has fallen out of favour so much.
@@pu3he I'm grateful for this comment! Thanks for putting some thoughts together for me. And I'm currently (slowly) making my way through Maps of Meaning. A map is made up of symbols, too. I kind of feel foolish that I hadn't put some of it together earlier in my own head!
A map can end up looking much different than the territory, but if the symbols are meaningful and point to something true, the map can give us a deeper more nuanced perspective on geography than without it. It's not in conflict with a more "standard" map, but simply looking at the world with a different focus in mind. Symbolism in story (and especially the Bible) is much the same.
"The world is glowing with meaning. That's what we need to see if we want to regain our culture, if we want to regain our world, if we want to regain our hearts. "
What a beautifully expressed plea for our souls and sanity. Thank you
To use a non-religious example, Caesar crossed the Rubicon in history. The story of Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon is very capable of functioning as a myth - actually, it follows the water crossing pattern of Noah, Moses, Joshua, and Elisha passing from an old mode of being to the new VERY closely. The elements of the story function very well symbolically.
None of this negates the idea of Caesar crossing the Rubicon as history in any way.
And that is a meeting of heaven and earth!
@@maxpitchkites I love it here 😂💯
@@maxpitchkites Haha I'm saying this all the time, it drives my husband crazy :'D
It could prove extremely useful to compile a list of secular "symbolism happens" examples.
Just went to the third service this week for Lent, Jonathon. Your videos, and the facebook group, are the main reason i got through the door. Dont get frustrated, your videos are very important.
Jonathan, JBP was to me the Elijah for your channel ;-)
Thank you for these videos on symbolism. Please don’t stop making them even though you get flack from some people. I feel like these talks could be described as a lifeline for me because I feel like the light is finally turning on in my head. I am reading your brother’s book and everything is making more sense. Please don’t stop, whatever you do. God bless.
*flak
Symbolism is Logos acting in the real world.
You stated " ... the entirety of all creation will be filled with the spirit of God ..." this seems like another "form" of animism. That is me, a former Western evangelical Christian interpreting your remarks. I have just limited myself to taking your words literally - too much so. I think you're fighting a Western, literal, materialistic culture that is not educated in what symbolism is. Your brother's book has helped me. When he said that they did not think of these things as metaphors but as symbols I thought - what is the difference? I was confused until I started to understand what symbolism is and how it is not just a metaphor. You're video is right on point. We are too left brained about the world. We need to understand context and patterns. Bravo to you.
Have you read Iain McGilchrist's the master and his emissary? Is extensive research into different pattern understanding related to brain hemisphere. Worth a read or he has a number of youtube videos
@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 I have read his book. His book (McGilchrist) seems to tie all this together. My entire adult life has been lived through a materialistic (left brain) lens. It has helped me in my career (engineer) but has not provided much deeper meaning. Matthieu's book The Language of Creation, McGilchrist, Vervaeke .... I'm seeing a deeper world. I'm liking what I see.
Thank you for pushing us so to think with you correctly. I hadn't realised what a materialist I was until I had listened to you for a couple of years and only recently comprehended what you are saying (in fact I would have strenuously denied I was a materialist). Jonathan your channel has enriched my faith, my public ministry, and my love & commitment to Christ and His church...blessings and prayers for you and your family.
Wow Jonathan. I haven’t listened to this yet, but I’m about to. If it’s what I think it’s about, that’s very exciting. I have been going through an RCIA program at a local Catholic parish. That’s in large part due to our conversations. So I have you to thank for that.
As I’ve been getting deeper into traditional Christianity, I’ve had the same thought about your content, and I’ve been meaning to ask you. I was actually considering sending an email today. So, this is good timing. It’ll save you some work in responding. 😂
I hope everything is great!
Just finished watching. This is helpful. As somebody who is learning about traditional Christian teachings, it can be difficult to parse out the signal from the noise. For example, what you said about textual analysis and the historical Jesus. How should I think about those efforts? Is there any validity there? Are they worth understanding? Or, is there another point of view that I could take that would bear better fruit? It seems like that’s what you’re outlining here. As a newbie, I’m tempted to fall into black-and-white thinking about this. Can you make any suggestions on making these discernments specifically for newbies?
You are using "symbol / symbolism" rather like the original greek sense of σύμβολον, which would be something like "representation". Even "creed": indeed, the Nicean Creed was originally called "Σύμβολο της Πίστεως", "Symbol of the Faith", and it is still called that in Greek. Clearly the Church didn't mean that the Creed was a metaphor, an allegory, but was thinking really hard about how to best represent, or encapsulate, or compress, the Faith in a meaningful, brief and accessible way. How to cut through the "noisiness", as you say, of thousands of specific facts, narratives, traditions, personalities etc and come up with an ultimate representation of the Faith.
Really enjoy your work btw!!
Since I've been watching these videos and others like it I have seen symbolic patterns happening in life all around me. My two sons are the perfect archetypes of Jacob and Esau. Understanding that has given me a new weapon or tool in teaching them to not hate each other. So I can say symbolism does happen and thank you for making these videos, they are of more help than you may know.
I see it in my life, too. A new layer involves finding the medicine in the story. The problem provides a metaphorical mouth for nourishment to enter your life. I believe this is work humanity has on its plate atm.
2 boys 15 and 16.
"Irish twins" - still acceptable slur.
"Stop reenacting Jacob and Esau!" Has definitely come out of my mouth
Thank you, Jonathan. This video, while not completely within my grasp to understand with my blue-collar brain, is addressing some specific questions I had. I'll watch this a few more times and hopefully the light will eventually come on.
1:13 Symbolism 3:52 Meaningful
6:02 Patterns Amidst Chaos
7:18 The Bible Is Describing Events
9:51 Why are Legends building around someone?
13:56 Manifestation
15:31 The Icon of Pentecost
23:28 Description, Story. Revealing Higher Truth.
25:18 Seeing how talk fits with patterns.
Time Stamp Guy, you’re not the hero we wanted. But you’re the hero we need. Thank you.
Jonathan, I am a Christian, (presently Calvinist) and I grew up in a Pentecostal Assemblies of God denomination. After I encountered Jordan Peterson’s work I heard of yours. Hearing the way you’ve laid out symbolism has been unbelievably refreshing for my own spiritual walk. Thank you for the work you’re doing; it’s given me a tremendous amount of hope for embracing life.
How's it fairing along sir? I relate to this comment right now. I need to understand this symbolic reality more
Here's one unlikely case where your work, Jonathan, has helped me to understand myself better through better understanding symbolism. I was just thinking of this before I noticed you'd uploaded this video.
I'm a mother of three, and when I had my daughter, I looked at her brand new baby face and into her dark eyes and felt like looking back at me was this sharp lady trapped in a baby's body. I got the impression this lady wasn't too happy about the situations, the limitations of being a baby, being subjected to all the baby things and having me as her mother. I found these thoughts quite silly, but it was still too strong a feeling to ignore. I jokingly even mentioned it to someone, that I had the distinct sense that she had been here before and was silently judging me, mentally scoring me for how well I do the mothering thing. How many seconds it takes for me to change a nappy and how quick I am to answer her cry. I didn't get this feeling with my boys when they were babies, they felt like helpless infants and bonding with them came more easily. With her I felt like she saw through me. It took some weeks or months for my daughter's own personality to come through more and for this feeling to entirely vanish.
Now, looking back at that time, I'm now thinking it was in fact correct for me in that situation to see an older woman in her. It sounds weird but for a woman having a daughter is not entirely unlike giving birth to your own mother AND mother-in-law. The daughter is more of the women that have come before me than she is of me even if she is born through me. In my infant baby girl all the women in my lineage as well as in her father's lineage, I suppose, became manifest in my life and, indeed, my actions as a woman and as a mother were and still are being held up against the standard set by them. This child is growing up to be a woman and a mother and I'll be her greatest role model, for better and for worse, and my influence will live on in her. And they'll all be watching. I can read my scorecard, my successes and my failings, by looking at her and my relationship with her. That's what I was seeing, even if the way I made sense of it at the time was through ideas of my baby being the reincarnation of one grumpy old lady. It may have been unrefined but it wasn't untrue. Of course I am one of them as well, I'm part of the chain of mothers, and I think that's what I had to come to terms with before I was able to see her as my own little girl and me as her own mother. If she's every mother, so am I, and we're both also every daughter, and my relationship with my own mother is part of this. Initially I don't think I was prepared to take my place in the direct chain of mothers, getting to mediate ancient maternal and feminine patterns to her, to another female, and that's why I felt like she was critical of me.
Wow. I found your feeling about giving birth to your mother and your mother in law quite powerful and insightful.
@@rochelle9243 Haha, thank you! It's such a weird thing to say, I had to go read my comment again to remember what it was about :D. Now I'm remembering quite distinctly how my baby boys felt more like "simply" babies, I felt confident that I can mother them. Their needs weren't that complicated. With my baby girl it seems I was struggling with not just being the mother but also having to come to better terms with all of femininity.
Completely agree with this! My daughter was an "old soul" the moment she was born and was a pretty "serious" baby. She laughed and cooed and loved me but there was no doubt there was MORE going on. There is much trauma and wounding on my side of the family between mothers and their daughters, and I take my relationship with her both immediately (as in, our day to day interactions are just sometimes taking care of her physically and emotionally) and symbolically as I am showing her a new way to be a mother and restoring the love and connection between mothers and daughters in my ancestral line.
My son, who is only 6 months old now, is much "easier." I think that's just a personality difference though or maybe because he's the second and just seems happy to be included. I will say though that my husband knows that his role with our son is more "intense" than mine because it's his job to teach him how to be a man, much the way mine is to teach my daughter how to be a woman, wife, and mom.
@@n.c.9618 Yes, I felt like there was simplicity to my relationship with my boys, like it was uncomplicated from the get go. Of course I still have my issues with them too, especially seeing myself and my own flaws manifest also in them as they grow, but it wasn't there when they were infants.
While with my daughter it was different, me projecting onto her this deep rejection or at least a suspicion that wasn't there from her, she was as easy a baby as they come. I could've failed to really intimately bond with her due to being too insecure to claim her, really. One of the dreams I remember from when I was expecting my daughter was that I'd give birth to a baby who clearly doesn't look like me and I'll feel like it's someone else's baby. It was sort of the case for my mum, I came out looking like every female on my father's side and distinctly not like her, and I think it put some pressure on her because of her own insecurities and feeling inferior. I believe she saw me a little bit as the other and then she probably had trouble dealing with the negative aspects of herself she saw in me. I felt it growing up like I don't fully have a place in what I experienced as her world but meant womanhood. Nothing hugely traumatic but it chipped away at trust and confidence. I had to intimately work through what are the areas of femininity where I can confidently say that I do take after her just like she takes after her own mother and so on.
With that uneasiness about relationship with femininity there's the temptation to avoid rejection and failure and to keep the distance and stay guarded. I feel it takes a lot of courage to stand up and claim that space as a mother, to say my children are mine and I'm theirs, I'm their foundation even if I'm painfully aware of our own short-comings. I was lucky to be able to have children and be a mother to them, I could've easily decided it's not for me out of fear of rejection. Good for you for taking the steps to show your daughter a different way! Thanks for your comment :)
Another fantastic video. Thanks you. The key for me is that we are already doing the condensing in telling the story in the first place. This is irrefutable and should get anyone thinking along the right lines. Thanks for making the point!
I remember in your interview with Nicholas Kotar, he said something like when I use the word myth that doesn't mean I think the event didn't happen. And you replied I something like I know or else I wouldn't be talking to you and you laughed. I've been following you for awhile and I've never had trouble understanding you. I always enjoy videos like this when you really break stuff down. Great stuff. Keep up the good work. I hope I get a chance to meet you someday.
Also, those critics 2000 years ago:
''So where is Elijah that was supposed to come?''
''If you would want to believe, John was Elijah.''
''So it's symbolic?''
''... yes.''
''... so it was a lie?''
''...''
1000 years ago. The dark ages never happened.
The year should be 1019.
Im returning to these symbolism videos / matthieu's book right now after a few years and I cant believe how much clearer things have gotten. Everything just clicks with the symbolism. Its like learning an entirely new language.
Your explanation of the icon reminded me that the word cosmos (κόσμος) in Greek also means “people”. That makes totally sense considering that those people by the door started being represented as κόσμος.
Literal meaning = exoteric reading of symbols. Great work Jonathan. Not everybody are ready to seek the Truth behind the veils. "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."
I do not think that non-orthodox people can understand the mistery of the icon - but nevertheless your explanation of the "compression" is a nice actualization at least for orthodoxes
What is your opinion on God's commandments to us about idolatry/ symbolism and worshipping that symbolism?
qed :)
@@TacticsTechniquesandProcedures Orthodox do not "worship" icons.
This cleared some things up with me. Maybe I can further clarify Jonathan’s views by way of example.
There is a book called “The Seven Basic Plots”, which claims every story adheres to at least one of the following plot types: overcoming monsters, rags to riches, quests, voyage and return, comedy, tragedy, and rebirth.
I think Jonathan is saying that just like all stories (*whether historical/factual or fictional*) belong to greater story categories, they also adhere to symbolic frameworks.
Thus, literary and symbolic truths manifest themselves through story, whether it is the historical narrative of “Lawrence of Arabia”, or the fantasy fiction of “Lord of the Rings.”
Or Willow lol
#symbolismhappens 😉
Yeah, I think you are the one who came up with the hashtag in the first place.
waiting for the bumper sticker...
Symbolism happens for sure. I don't think we can live without it. Our challenge is keeping our symbols sacred and alive so they don't lose their true meaning and power to lead us to proper worship ("worth"-ship). Keep up the good work on this mission!!!
Your name...it is awesome.
"we dont have those events anymore... all we have are the stories"
This is absolutely beautiful. Especially the last few minutes.
I believe people are learning how to mean things for themselves, but that's where the problem currently resides. I think a lot of people don't see symbols as meaningful because our symbols have become so ingrained that they appear to most of us as apart of our perception. It comes as a frightening shock to most nowadays to discover what influences them is mostly hidden from them but that using courage to understand that intending meaning into the world can offer patterns that help make sense of what we can't perceive directly, giving us more freedom after the fact.
Unfortunately, most people turn to other people for meaning, which isn't true meaning most of the time as the methods used to convey new means are presented with old symbols, and old combinations and patterns of symbols that don't evoke the new sense of meaning.
Maybe you should make some "Symbolism Happens" merch
Your review of compressed symbolism was helpful.
I love your channel dude, taught me so much about symbolism and helped shifted my entire world view.
I pray for you often since you are on the front lines and making an impact on our crazy culture. May God give you grace as you continue to speak truth, and may your listeners have grace to understand what you are saying.
If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Lol to deep
Excellent points! Thank you for sharing your wisdom
It's ALWAYS helpful. Thank you!
Excellent and hopeful. Life is full of meaning. I love that. I don't get the controversy. Why would anybody fight that?
Pulling them out of their...
This is so true. Thanks Jonathan!
calling for a deep shift in thinking.. I am about it
Please write a book!!!
I've read symbolism for years and you're correct. Unfortunately people really believe we live in the scientific worldview and if you can't hit it with a hammer then it's not "real". This is based on HUGE presumptions about what the world is. Keep it up mate.
the reason why a story is told in the manner it is told points you toward the deeper meaning of the story's message.
Much appreciated, thanks.
Jonathan Pageau -- bridging the gap between Heaven and Earth one video at a time.
Hey, Jonathan! Great video, as always.
Where can I find that "GOD'S DOG" poster? Looks very cool.
I also want to know. Reminds me of "Sol Justitiae" by Durer which is my favorite
Love all you work.thank you.
Great rant, and needed.
Love the beard, very well trimmed. Oh and great video too haha
Ruani Tafolla . I mean he is a carver...
@@Koolyococo he could work on my wood if you know what I mean
''So you're saying the Resurrection never happened?''
- They of Poor Hearing and/or IQ
It didnt happened physically. Now the symbolism of the résurrection is important. But no, earth isnt flat and flesh rots.
Ju Berry You aren’t going to get a scientific account of how but yes the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus occurred according to the gospels. Go to an Orthodox Church and they will tell you the same.
Great video, now more importantly - you seem slightly bigger and stronger than your brother. Have you tried forcing him to do more videos with brute strength?
hahahahaha x'D
That's not how their parents must have brought them up :)
The word you are searching for is not "noisy" but rather "fuzzy" paterns have different degrees of fuzzyness, but they kind of snap back to a main pattern which is clearer through its layers.
Dear Jonathan, have you ever done a video on the symbolism found in the holy books and texts of other religions, like the Qur‘an, Bhagavad-Gita, etc.? I would love to see that.
Most of this confusion comes from differences in language. It’s like one day the definition of metaphor became something that is not real. Instead of symbolic description.
If I say he was a bull as he charged through the crowd. Maybe he’s not a “literal” bull, but does that mean he didn’t charge? Nothing actually happened because I used a metaphor?
Very odd.
I think I'm more confused about your stance than before. But just maybe.
2:06 "Those patterns are really the patterns of how reality lays itself out".
Symbolism is rather about creating an image of how reality lays itself out in order for us to grasp it. Symbolism is a "funneling" of reality since raw reality is too immense for the brain to handle. Relying too much on the symbolic interpretation of reality you risk confusing the symbol for reality itself. This is what I noticed happens a lot in religious thinking. This might be also what happens with science at the edge of perception. We do science and religion with the same "hardware" and "operating system", different "apps" though.
"Hardware", "operating system", "apps", "software" are symbols. Applying the religious way of understanding symbolism to that sentence it would mean that you'd have to believe that in our heads there are actual hardware, operating system, apps and software, identical to computer related notions. So the symbolic understanding is incomplete without the understanding of reality behind the symbols. However, we have to face the fact that there are aspects of reality we have access to only through symbolic understanding. Which tells us that symbolic understanding are shortcuts, placeholders for keeping track of observations that are yet to be investigated.
Creating these "shortcuts" and "placeholders" is the reality of the supernatural: they are timeless and spaceless. And it is supernatural that we have the ability to manifest these "shortcuts" and "placeholders" into the physical reality through actions.
This is pretty good!
Now all we can see of God
is like a cloudy picture
in a mirror.
Later we will see him
face to face.
We don't know everything,
but then we will,
just as God completely
understands us.
- 1 Co 13,12
@@pu3he No, what we see is humanity in the context of reality. We don't believe we can be powerful but we trust we are weak. We project the weakness onto us, and the strength onto something else and call that God. Same thing about our wickedness, we call it Satan.
Being told the Bible was literally true drove me away. Hearing itd deeper interpretations & symbols has lured me (curiously & cautiously) back.
For me it seems to be the template for form and content interactions.
Awesome video. Keep up the great work!
Hey Jonathan love your videos, listening to you talking about symbolism is amazing. How did you learn to interpret symbolism in stories? and how can you be sure if the interpretation is somewhat correct or not?
@Jonathan Pageau, would you please make a Symbolism Happens sticker in your Creator Spring store?
Condensation seems to work better for me than compression.
Amazing
"the wind is cold like my heart in winter" wow so deep dude
And I was trying to come up with the least deep thing I could think of.
Random question: what do you make of the “entity” archetypes described by people who’ve undergone hallucinogenic trips, from a symbolic perspective? E.g. “the joker,” “machine elves/light entities,” a “god figure,” “being operated on,” etc.
As an aside, I’ve been seeing hair symbolism in the most unexpected places in media, it’s... disturbing, haha. Not sure why it’s emerging so consistently and congruously with the notion of glory.
I have an intuitive guess that there's meaning in, say, a DMT entity aligning with the metaphysical worldview you've been most exposed to and internalized. So for example if you're Hindu you may encounter Shiva, if you're Christian you may encounter the biblical God or Jesus
Also Huston Smith in his book Forgotten Truth, chairs that God is infinite and is therefore ineffable. So it's impossible for finite beings like us to grasp of that and encounter that directly. So what we do encounter and we will we do worship and what we do live under is personalized or particularized manifestations of the infinite. So it doesn't really matter what form a psychedelic entity has, what matters is how can that encounter lead to an increase in the quality of your sober life. Maybe you'll double down on your faith, maybe you'll get specific message. Maybe you'll get a feeling and that feeling will contain many messages
Can you do a video on the symbolism of cats? Felines - ancient Egyptian gods, ect?
Are you saying that forensic accuracy is a form of noise?
Ken NorThUnder don't spoil the fun, the pseudo intellects are lapping it up
Just got it…after the thousandth time.
Please talk about the symbolism of Lazarus in the Bible!!
Brilliant video!
I thought this was pretty obvious until I read the comments, and yet a lot of people still just seem to ignore your hints in between speeches of those videos that the whole point is symbolism, not whether these are events or myths.
Awesome..... Thank you
I've read a few Orthodox authors and watched a few Orthodox Christians on UA-cam and it seems to me that symbolism is the native tongue of Orthodoxy. Catholics are (more often than not) comfortable with symbolism, but Protestants and atheists (who are so obsessed with a forensic manner of describing) seem to have difficulty with symbolism. I think Carl Jung shows that Protestants can get it though, if they "become like little children."
Which is a weird way of phrasing it, because if you ask me, little children have a much better, intuitive, grasp of symbolism than adults do…
Kinda backwards since Catholics are the ones who take the eucharist as literal -- which many consider blasphemous -- while Protestants understand it as a memorial.
@@AllOtherNamesUsed they misunderstanding it. Hot nothin to do with wine or bread lol
This was great. Totally makes sense. The meaning of how the event (compressed potentially) transformed reality. Yes. As long as you are doing Alex Jones/flat Earth, how about one on the Simulation "theory" that's going around?
Amazing video!
We behave, think, and communicate in patterns that were designed by the Creator/Architect/Logos/Elohim/YHVH.
Hello Jonathan, thank you for the thought-provoking video!
I‘m new to symbolism. Can you use it for facilitating creative processes, e.g. inventing new products?
I read somewhere that we should not be a nation of signs and symbols. It can cause confusion and deception. The same book talks about not been of other nations traditions.
“The wind was cold in my heart of winter” 😂 is that what he just said?
I love it btw! Not trolling. Off the cuff is always best!
What's that Illustration in the background?
God's Dog?
With the ominous figure lurking in the shadow backing the knight..hmm
Hey Jonathan, is sticking st Paul on the Pentecost something kind of like postmodernism but done delicately and incorporated fairly
Thanks
Lots of biblical stories refer to events, but there are obvious ones that are clearly not historical events (Moses for instance - in a country that has been more excavated probably than any other, no one has ever found Remains of Jewish settlements in Egypt. No evidence of slavery of the Jews, no evidence of them building the pyramids etc etc.
But there are clearly other that have good archaeological evidence.
Moses never existing would be terminal for Judaism IMO.
The Bible does not say that Israelites built the pyramids, only that they were slaves.
Jonathan Pageau sorry yes that’s true, I meant more generally, no evidence whatsoever of Jewish people living in Egypt at that time.
How could there be Jews anywhere in a time before the house of Judah?
MMM 16:30 is this where we get the idea of microcosm?
That's unfortunate...that people think you're saying it's all myth.
I found you a while back, and you've connected everything I knew together. ...symbolism just happens
I think some of that "noise" you speak of within patterns is just the expression of various other patterns, no?
I just thought that might be the case because for the analogy you used regarding the variation within seasons that is the case. Think El nino pattern or the madden julian oscillation...
I know analogies aren't always perfect, so I wanted to know what others thought about this idea I've postulated regarding patterns. ...maybe I'm just confused and I'm insane
I think the pushback, especially from western Christians is understandable. What people want is a consistent pattern or methodology for approaching scripture that takes these ideas seriously.
As an ex-fundamentalist, where do I look for interpretations and traditions that are built on this way of thinking? Is there historical precedence for it? Did the biblical “authors” view the text in this way?
Hi Jonathan! Love your videos! Thank you so much for all your effort to share with us! 😆Dont allow Trolls to distract u. Just ignore the critics or lunatics.... u don't have time to make a video spelling everything out for people who make uninformed knee jerk reaction comments. Its just an unfortunate element to UA-cam comment sections... everyone has a soap box. Just DELETE/BLOCK 😁😀😃
Ironic that these rationalist fanatics complain about your use of symbolism when their entire mode of being is based upon believing in a “compressed” narrative of rational, detail obsessed, “truth seekers” fighting off the sin of symbolism.
Symbalism is nothing more than the abstraction of reality.
What would Homer have to say about the symbolism of his works? We see symbolic structure, and yes even metaphors, in the Illiad and the Odyssey; but to Homer, this was a literal story of literal events that literally happened.
Is there any chance you might take on describing the symbolism throughout Ovid's Metamorphoses?
That would be truly great.
I believe his brother has them covered in his book. Good read.
@@villiestephanov984 Thanks for letting me know. I'll check it out.
Edit: I looked at it but from the contents page it looks like it deals exclusively with Bible stories, which is all well and good, but not quite what I had in mind with my original comment. I'll still buy it though 😊
As I understand it now, the language of symbolism (because it is a language) is a language distinct from the spoken or written word. The symbol, as Jonathan describes, can be properly seen as a pure image--an image that evokes a meaningful pattern by actually *showing* us the pattern without resorting to describing it using words.
As moderns it seems we tend to assume that a symbol is there to "tell" us something, or refer to something else, either in the sense of a metaphor (a stand-in), or as something to be taken literally. Maybe this is a consequence of the Enlightenment-era bifurcation of fact/fiction, or "Newton vs. Shakespeare" if you will. It seems we have a tendency to view symbols in terms of spoken/written language so we assume the symbol must be either a literary device or a literal signifier. While metaphor and literal interpretations can totally be valid, they are still "nested within" the broader category of the symbol as a pure image evoking a pattern.
Pure gold
Thank you! :D
Video Suggestion: Meaning of solstice
The bible has, more recently to me, come across as a VERY loose historical narrative told in such a way to emphasise a symbolic message (and the symbolic nature of existence) rather than to preserve a record of factual occurrence. It is a text that preserves interpretations of creation, man’s relationship to the universe and what a ‘good’/true life looks like.
Bonsoir Jonathan,
First of all I would like to say thank you for your work.
As a psychology student who is interested in religion, your videos helped me to understand it in a deeper manner.
However I ran into a problem when I tried to discuss symbolism with my friends.
I'm french and I find myself unable to translate the word "pattern" from english to french.
There are a lot of words that I apparently use (motif, modèle, patron) but none of which seem to me to really contain the whole meaning that I find in the word "pattern".
I think you speak french too. What word would you use to translate "pattern" in french if you had to do it ?
Cordialement,
Un simple étudiant.
Je dirais structure. Il y a une structure symbolique.
@@JonathanPageau Merci !
Hmm maybe you can try translating them from other languages
Образ
Orden
نمط
Track (alternative English word - I took a few liberties with this one)
@@azzamalmarzouq9522 : pamphlet?😁
Why is it so important that the events in the Bible actually happened, but for any other symbolic story, it doesn’t matter? Is the reality, which is beyond space and time, which the scriptures point to dependent upon those biblical stories having actually happened?!? Or is it simply that the religion and its teachings are dependent on the historicity of the supposed events? Of course, the answer is obvious.
Unfortunately, if the events didn’t literally happen, then the religion falls apart. On the other hand, if the scriptures are actually understood symbolically, then the historicity of the events has absolutely no bearing on the truth to which they point. Religion is stuck in dualistic thinking. Reality is non-dual. The differences and implications couldn’t be more vast.
I think I accused you of this as well. Please forgive me.
I love this.
1:13 i think that's called similism
But is it real Jonathan?? Is it?? Did Rome literally fall??