THE Bow Design For Faster Bows
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 лют 2024
- Thank you for watching!
Shatterproof Archery Speed Vid
• Faster Bows Explained ...
HELPFUL LINKS BELOW 👇🏽
I started an Archery Manufacturing Company Check it out below!
SHATTERPROOF ARCHERY 👉 www.shatterproofarchery.com/
Under $20 Useful Archery Gear
Arrow Puller - geni.us/arrowpuller
Perfect Bowstring Wax - geni.us/perfectwax
Brass Nocking Points - geni.us/brassnocks
Beaver Silencers - geni.us/5QlQ
Arrow Recommendations
Cheap Arrows - geni.us/Arrows30
High Quality Arrows - geni.us/Arrows
Target Recommendations
MY ALL-TIME FAVORITE - geni.us/Highrollertarget
Best Value - geni.us/Blocktarget
Most Affordable - geni.us/Blackholetarget
Most Durable - geni.us/Rineheart
Camera Gear
Favorite Camera - amzn.to/3twNG1x
Favorite Mic - amzn.to/48D0dka
Favorite Lights - amzn.to/3rIpeKg
For Brand Deals and business inquiries Email
caleb@smallscreenmarketing.com
Affiliate links were used in this description
“As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
”Thank you for your support
#kramerammons
#bowmaking
#traditionalarchery - Навчання та стиль
I love the energy and excitement that Kramer has.
I agree
You should look into a Design of Experiment (DOE) concepts. I am a scientist that often deals with problems like this that have many variables that cannot be isolated. DOE can allow you to design and analyze the relationships between variables like brace height and draw weight especially when they are nonlinear. Your dataset is already tailored for it so it might be really helpful.
If you set up a simple energy balance, you can greatly reduce the number of variables in the design here.
Extremely good idea!
The shorter distance, the faster the bow is. I saw this video on a channel of a bow maker.
He was making traditional Native American bows and he made a test using the same arrow each time he was shooting a Sioux Bow (quite similar to european long bows) and then sawed of the limbs of this exact same bow, turning it into a short bow (similar to Comanche style), used the same arrow and realized that the arrow was going faster at the same draw length.
But of course the amount of stress on a short bow is bigger than it is on a longbow, the longbow gives you the possibility to have longer draw length.
I love the physics behind bows, that's so cool XD
Fred Bear found that for him the 60” Kodiak recurve was the best blend. Howard Hill was a proponent of the 68” bamboo core longbow. After experimenting for 5 decades I like shooting a 52” Kodiak magnum, weird choice. I made my own for a decade, now I just enjoy shooting. Good luck, should be fun.
As a fellow Kodiak Magnum enjoyer, I tip my hat to you, good sir.
It is a very light bow to carry and wield about but packs quite the punch, I love it both for field target and for hunting, albeit the latter I've done very sporadically.
One of the more compact.and fun to shoot bows I've owned.
Thanks for this and just want you to know between you and clay Hayes i was able to accomplish building my first self bow it's a short 44in ntn and draws 60lbs at 22in now i am getting lots of staves and really enjoy my new hobby thanks for helping me get started in this
I'm really enjoying this series!
You got me to make a bow and I just placed an order for a couple items. Just letting you know that all your work on this channel is much appreciated and not in vain. Best wishes to you, man ✌️
Instructions unclear. I shoot bows with an arrow now.
That is called a boomerang or throwstick Atlatl!
Kramer. Love the video. It’s complicated. But now clear as mud. Now I know why I like archery so much… I think.
I have an idea for a bow design where the string is slightly off-set to the side, so that the string can move past the bowhandle and keep pushing the arrow until the bow has reached it’s original «un-braced» very reflexed shape.
WOW! This is exactly the kind of information I've been curious about and just asked you about a few days ago on another of your videos. I guess I should have watched the videos of yours that I hadn't seen yet first! haha. Great stuff! Thank you!
Let's do it! I'm in. Loving the journey. Num 6:24-26
Love this video. I’ve shot everything from Korean bows, Hungarian bows, trad long bows and recurves and the speeds are always surprising me. I do think the limb wood/ material used is a HUGE factor. I can’t wait for your results. Awesome!
Thanks for delving into this topic more! I've always wondered about this (mainly from a fantasy roleplaying perspective, including things like unusual materials or bows made for superhumanly strong people,) and always found there to be a surprising lack of information about it, or even contradictory information. I guess it's one of those things that maybe isn't as well understood as one might think.
Loved it! So, it is a balancing act for sure. Just a thought on the Bear K4, patent design. In that, my take was that they were going for the power stroke to still have a lot of gas toward the point where the arrow leaves the string. But that design is a PIA to string, had a lot of hand shock too. Plus, those issues may have been a challenge for the early and developing archery public. On top of design elements, they were developing glass; woven to linear strand. Then to working recurve. Leading edge stuff. Looks like you have a great mentor, excellent ideas and a burning desire to figure it out. Now you have the best materials to date along with a rich design history to draw from. I am really looking forward to the results!
I’m loving this path you’ve chosen! 😊
I think it would be better, if you shoot every bow with a 10 gpp arrow and calculate the Energie. This is way better to compare than only the speed if you have different draw weights.
I ve been wondeing why most people preferred recurve bow over longbow, this is an interesting video, thank you.
Beautifully put, and very professional ! Love from Hungary 😀❤️
Im currently in my junior year of mech engineering so this is my take. If you go to openstax university, go to college physics one. This will have all that you need in terms of spring constants, conservation of momentum, and impulse. You'll see with your spring (the bow) a longer distance that spring travels, the more energy that spring will deliver to your mass. So shorter brace heights will generally deliver more speed. Now your spring constant isnt constant, it goes from lighter to heavier so you'll need to likely take the derivative of the spring energy function and set up an integral for your spring constant between your minimum at the start, and your largest point. In the ideal sense however, the closer you can get to a constant to your maximum poundage, the more energy it will deliver.
Amazing video. Keep it up, I wanna see what else we can learn these experiments 😉
Very, very interesting ! Very much thanks !
Hi Kramer, love your content and specifically this video, i have never made any good bows but i have been thinking about efficiency of bows a lot. The mass to limb length ratio has also been on my mind a little and a solution i can think of is using profiled shapes for the bow limbs instead of making them flat, i believe its something worth experimenting with and i think you would also have the skill to try it out. big love from Austria
personally i think a t shaped profile with the ridge on the back of the bow and the flat of the profile on the belly, most of the ridge would have to probably be carbon fiber, but i think it could work
Take a look at how Turkish flight bows are made, as far as I know those are the fastest standard bows - can go up to 270-300 fps (so excluding compounds).
Are you ever to make more bow to by or restock the bare bones. I’ve wanted one of your recurve bow for so long
Cool content Kramer! Your extreme backset experiment bow looks a lot like an American Indian horn-backed bow. Theiir bows were 40-45" long, but they also just drew to about 20", so also shot shorter arrows.
this is gonna be epic!
Graphing acceleration as a function of arrow travel on release would be informative too. The arrow is accelerating throughout the shot, but investing in faster acceleration early in the shot (closest to full draw) will be better than having greater acceleration later in the shot. Shooting from a shootng machine with a high speed camera and a 1 cm grid placed behind the arrow in the slow motion video would get you a LOT of new data.
12:46
Great video. Kramer.
I would add... I think that one benefit to understanding how the bow design, affects its Speed... Can be beneficial,
Because then instead of increasing Poundage in pursuit of increased speed, but not necessarily achieving it efficiently...
Despite paying the cost for more mass and/or more poundage...
It might be possible to start with a 40 pound bow design... And instead of adjusting to a 50 pound design for some increase in speed...
Discovering how much speed can be gained with a more efficient design, might allow us to increase or retain arrow speed, with Lower Poundage.
Then we might be able to. Achieve similar or faster Arrow Speed, with a lighter draw weight.
Which is very intriguing.
this has been a super interesting (and confusing) great video, please post your results fast ASAP.
thank you
So many variables. With as many different weightings. And changing for every archer.
I hope whenever it is you make this mythical bow; that you make it in not only with a left/right hand shelf but an arrow pass too for us thumb draw folks.
Love this video series! Would you mind sharing your Chart? Provide a link here or on you company website!
Cool video man. There's load rigging concepts that I think would give you some more really valuable insight. Look up sling rigging angles if you have the time.
Uukha and Backwoods Composites have dome a lot of research into carbon fiber limbs and the shaoe of the curve of the limbs that provide the smoothest draw and fast arrow flight. Carbon fiber helps withe mass portion of the discussion in this video.
Hey I have have been compound bow hunting for a little while and I was just wondering what is a good budget recurve bow good for deer hunting
Consider also that after certain draw weights you get diminishing returns, i read somewhere that diminishing returns begin at about 55lb draw weigt, another source was saying after 70lb. There was also a video on youtubes early days where a guy tested recurve bows and he came to the conclusion that the sweet spot was at about 35lb and results showed diminishing returns after that. Can you please investigate this topic ?
Krammar i'm really really enjoying this series.
But, even years ago I could have told you that super reflex longbow was not going to be your fastest bow, just from reading the TBB. At a glance, that thing would suffer real problems with instability.
One of the most unexpected components I found that increased the speed of my wooden recurves was the addition of string bridges. It's really weird how the act of dampening vibration forces that lost energy to go somewhere else. I'm leaning toward substantial contact recurves, deflexed limbs with light stable tips, very little flex to brace height, string bridges with late lift-off. So hard to balance the choices between energy storage, mass, instability/stability, length, etc.
Would love to see in a future Video how good of a bow you could build in a „survival“ situation with limited tools - it would be interesting to see which material you would choose and how your approach would be, just Paracord as bow string material and no advanced tools other than a knife and a saw
Thanks for your content!
Pvc bow... Escelent material 😉..
It would be worth looking at how the limb tips travel along an arch/curve in relation to the arrow travelling along a straight line. The center point and radius of that arch will probably have a lot to do with bow speed.
Nice video
Yeah there has to be a great deal of physics there, i have noticed that a stiffer spine actuality slows down the string because of less compression. I think that you could also deal with a slower start acceleration or an uneven acceleration path, there would be a lot of factors that could impact. Perhaps the recurve gives a really fast initial acceleration (faster than the longer stiffer limb portion can accelerate) and then only remains constant or even slower than the initial where the arrow compression could probably be the indicator of the string speed that is going on. I cool test would be to place accelerometers on the limbs and string and arrow to measure movement.
Good video, Can someone point me to any videos discussing force/draw curves for various bow designs?
Is there a way to make the riser shorter? I wonder how would that affects speed and other things...
have you tried horn for bows
do the designs matter between arrow weight like gas vs diesel engines where different grains arrow mean similar speed
You could save a lot of time by starting with a Wilcox "Duoflex" design it has a lot of the attributes you are shooting for.
7 and 13 16th sounds like some crazy medieval measurement😂
I have a question which chronograph are you using.
No holds bard mate,go hard,
I would highly recommend you use a simple energy balance. It would greatly reduce the number of variables you have to consider.
The better way to think of the bow travelling for longer when the string is let go uses more stored energy to move the string the distance as well as the limbs itself.
Kinda like saying its easier to carry a small 50kg weight, vs one as big as your body as u have to move That weight further with more muscles etc. Just using more energy to do the same work
The Tommy Wiseau of bowyery. ❤
The fastest Asian Traditional Bow i tried is Old Persian Bow by Lucas Nawalny for short bow
For long bow is assyrian Af bow
Opa long bows! He is no longer alive but a very interesting guy. Hard to get information on his bows, let alone by one. He was all over making bows light draw weight but incredibly fast. Static tips with back set.
ok i am mechanical engineering student and I thing I can pring my own view here. first I think it could be cool to create a cad model of the desighns you want to make and create some precise mesurements. also this way you can run the models through so simulation and get data like weight destibution of the bow, balance points, points of maximum and minimum flex and alot more stuff. i would also recomns looking into spring physics. bows are in the end just spring that shoot arrows so the physics applys. I am no expert by any means but I think that with the right people you can realy optimize the bow. think of minmaxing every aspect of the bow through a modular cad desighn so you can enter parametrs and the model will update itself to fit those needs to a dagree humans cant realy think of, you can then program the model to export the optimal form to create the bow and make the production process more efficiante, thats a production engineers specialty but still, cool stuff that I think for you is worth looking into.
I wonder if the ranking would stay the same if you doubled your arrow weight? Seems like the heavier limbed bows would do better with more weight to work against.
Would draw length be a factor? Wouldnt someone with a long draw length need a different design from someone with a shorter draw length?
I expect the length needs to scale with draw, but otherwise optimal design won't change much if at all.
Manchu bow is the with the HEAVIEST draw weight during early draw and mid draw but that bow shoot slow-ish. It will NOT shoot a light weight arrow that fast and if you do, it would only result in a lot of handshock. Manchu Bow is only meant to shoot heavy GPP like 15 or 16 GPP at 170-180 fps
Did you take into account the elastic characteristic of your bow materials? If you are comparing different bows, that's a variable that should be considered.
Yeah you got all our inner nerds squirming with anticipation.
Are you like this when you interact with people or is this just your on-camera persona?
Are you really in the springs?
Got here fast
Should keep it as a running stat every bow you make or get to try you should plug it in to the table of stats. Eventually you will have your few thousand bow test stats
I recommend The Traditional Bowyer's Bible, Vol4.
Chapter 5 The mass principle Steve Gardner
Chapter 7 Design and performance revisited Tim Baker
Also, you might be interested in the Perry reflex by Dan Perry
If we are talking about target shooting, then aren't arrow weight and stiffness important too??
Yes actually. Most bows work best with arrows with a certain mass range. The arrow mass and stiffness both plays a role in efficiency of transfer of energy from the limbs to the bow.
Does all this change if you have a longer draw length or draw to your ear?
Bow weights are measured at 28" draw. Generally, in a recurve bow, you gain about 2 pounds of draw weight for every inch beyond 28. So, to get your arrows properly matched to your bow, you have to consider the bow weight at your actual draw length. If I understand your question correctly, yes. Your bow/arrow speed will be different at your full draw if it is greater than 28 inches. So, if your release is a little early, your arrow will strike low. If you really haul it back; high.
- Unstrung tip setback should correspond to strung energy, stored in the limbs just by stringing the bow, but not directly useful to shooting an arrow. This is undesirable as it represents extra load the limbs must carry.
- Draw energy corresponds to shooting speed, all else equal, simple physics. All else isn't equal, as early draw weight likely relates to strung energy.
- Limb speed at arrow release represents energy not delivered to the arrow. Total limb movement relates to this, but isn't the complete picture. Bow string combined with limb geometry shifts the leverage from arrow to bow limb.
In an idealized case of the limbs pulling lengthwise you may even get the limbs coming to a stop as the arrow releases from the bowstring, giving very high efficiency of energy delivery. But this also likely works better with geometry giving little to no limb tip setback, and a poor draw weight vs. draw curve for conventional bows. I have a couple designs in mind that should achieve bow limbs coming to a stop with decent early draw weight, but one involves pulleys and the other a weird arrangement of limbs.
I personally don’t worry about arrow speed I just try to be accurate and have fun, love his videos though.
These videos are getting me hyped for archery, but my skills tell me to sit back down. Lol (6 foot shot diameter at 20 yards)
Why aren't you using a shooting machine for accurate bow speeds?? You should also consider using Draw Force Curve charts to tell what weight your bow is drawing per inch of draw... Most bowyers use 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of bow to test arrow speed... Using this method if you hit 185 fps and over you are doing great... If you go over 190 fps you have a very fast bow... Also use infrared lights on your chronograph for accuracy... Speeds will vary with the sunlight...
You missed something... Siyah bows are meant to be of a higher poundage that you tried.
For instance, you need 90# to take part of a manchu bow to have the advantages of the siyahs lever without being nerf by siyahs weight.
Try to take away as much material away from above the knock string grooves without sacrificing structural integrity. Plus probably close to 10fps
I get incredible performance out of my compact woodland recurve due to my bottomless quiver enchantment and the legolas mod (painstakingly acquired through hours of bow crafting) and thus everything I shoot becomes an instant pincushion. Very effective. Would recommend
Poundage at each inch of draw, side view profile, draw length less the brace height, distance of travel of bow tips, mass of bow, mass of string mass, arrow mass, air friction, hysterisis (internal friction), fletching drag = a decent rule of thumb for arrow speed. I believe but haven't the technical skills to prove that leverage plays a role as well.
There may be some super slow-motion videos of what a recurve and arrow look like through the power stroke. It is amazing to watch all that physics in action,
Very cool. Easy to explain what it does, hard to explain how it does it. Story of my life!@@paullewis5045
Archery topics always bring a twinkle to the eye. I have a 45 pound Bear Super Kodiak recurve 60 inch with a 9 1/2 inch brace height. I also have a 40 pound Kodiak Magnum 52 inch with a 7 inch brace height. They shoot the same weight arrow THE SAME SPEED. I suspect three different reasons. 1. Shorter bow, lighter limbs. 2. Shorter bow stacks weight quicker, earlier in the draw. 3. Shorter bow has a shorter brace height and therefore a longer power stroke. Have no idea if any of these factors contribute, nor how much they contribute. Just theories. Side note: Bows that have a radical forward recurve limb seem to have a higher capacity to torque and get a limb twisted while stringing?
This is a supervillan backstory
Then by this logic, wouldnt making a recurve bow with a more pronouced twist almost coil like bow ends make it faster?
Because while the main body of the bow has already finished its travel. The recoil action of the ends will give the string a burst of speed as it coils
Can you make a supersonic bow that can penetrate tank armor?
Rambo bow? 😂😂😂
I will report this as secondhand info: I worked with an archer who helped build tanks in Detroit during WW2. He reported that when the armor steel was tested, they would build very heavy arrows with hardened broadheads and stick them in the new steel very much to the surprise of the engineers.
it is great to see, such free and open use of a bow, in a car park. the uk gov has just announced they are trying to ban bows! Swords and Knives!, ironically, more people have been killed by police, in the last year, than killed by a bow or crossbow in 10 years. work that one out!
make a ottoman flight bow. 300 fps plus with 3 gpp
Very fast but hard to shoot. The archers used thumb releases to cope with string angle/pinch. There was a time, modern, where Flight shooting was heavily contested. Guys built short fast bows that were called foot bows because they lay on their backs, held the bow with two feet and launched "footed" shafts to great distances. However, the bows often blew up after one shot.
@@paullewis5045 yep
Someone is left eye dominant, so used to close their left eye they do it throughout the video on multiple occasions
My OMA Symphony Carbon bow at 30 pounds 60 inches shoots faster than my Ragim Black Bear bow at 45 pounds 58 inches (but i do have less drop on the Ragim as to be expected i suppose). I think becaue the Symphony is a Carbon bow it has less mass and therefore shoots quicker
Make a Korean bow
Bro .can you make Korean bow
It's a spring... talk to some mechanical engineers...
What would be really interesting is a bow of any sort, hand drawn, say an advanced compound bow, that can break in low handgun velocities... say 600-700 FPS.
At that point then gunpowder, compressed air, etc. become unneeded.
If you want a super fast bow think crossbow. ;-)
Thats my kinda of bible quote, need to try some long bows with pencil width tips, that greatly reduces the mass and speeds up the bow
I can really see why this is hard to quantify considering how many variables there are lol. You'd need a lot of time and money to make every bow design out of the same material and same draw weight.
Howard Hill had it right
I wonder how changing the arrow weight would change these numbers. Would the optimal brace height change with heavier arrows?
An instant , if expensive way, to learn what makes a fast bow would be to buy a Border bow with CV9 limbs... Ambiguity on the majority of factors will disappear.
Plus you have to take into account the archer what is his draw length will the bow stack on him? Is it too short for a tall guy with a long draw length , how much poundage can they draw , hunting or target weight arrows , its a lot . 🤯
Our ancestors used all kind of techniques to build things, not just bows. From the materials they had at the time.
But no material they had back then can compare to carbon fibers and glass fibers wich we have today.
The way i make bows now, and i made so many out of many things, even steel, wich are powerful, but will destroy your wrist.
I buy a good quality carbon fiber telescopic fishing rod, the process is way more tedious than making laminated bows, that is easy and i understand why everyone is making such bows.
But if you want a really fast powerful and well balanced bow, you need to change your view on making bows.
After i have the fishing rod, a 5,6 meter one would do.
I take out each segment, mark it and cut it in half on it's entire lenght like a semi circle.
So now i have a fishing rod split in half, each half will be a limb.
Then i take those halfs rods, clean the paint off them with wet sandpaper till i see the carbon fibers, on the outside and inside of each individual piece.
this ensures a good bond. Then i stack and glue all of those pices making one, you can use CA, lots of it. Or epoxy.
After you've done that, comes the entire magic of this kind of bow, making a handle and tillering the limbs, and remember, is carbon, you need good sandpaper, or a very corse dioamond plate.
And this is very important because if you don't make the limbs bend nice in a semi circle it will break after few shots, if you do it right, it will last as much as the glue in the fibers.
After you tiller the limbs you have to take a piece of thik woven fiberglass, pull out strains from it a little bit longer than your limbs, remove the limbs from the bow.
Place those fibers on something flat, a piece of glass, hold them stright with tape and stack them to made a band from it then soak them in resin, try to take out excess with paper towels.
When the band is cured, is hould be about half of a millimeter thick, you will glue this on the back of the limbs, where you sanded tillering the bow. This ensures the fibers from the fishing rod will
not come lose and start to split and will also give speed and power to the bow. Then you have to design some kind of tips to hold the string and you will have a bow wich will be very light, small and fast, and powerful.
To me a good balanced bow should not have recurved tips, recurved tips were used due to limitation in materials back then, to make longer bows short, to increase drow lenght and speed.
A balanced bow should be recuved on it's entire lenght before puting a string on it and look like perfect semi circle when it has a string on it. The tips should be the most fragile part of it and as light as possible. The profile of the limbs should be flat on the belly and semi round on the on the back(the face with faces you). This makes the limbs narrower and so it will slice through air faster, making it faster. To build a very good balanced bow is not easy, is very much trial and error.
The string is also important, the more stiff is the material the less vibrations you will feel.
And of course the arrows. No mater how much some people want to say bamboo, wood, whatever, nothing beats in acuracy speed and power the carbon fiber arrows.
And of course there is an entire science to how to balance arrows and how important is that.
But on short, recurved traditional bows, are just that. Traditional bows, and they use it in olympics because is a tradition. What makes those bows so precise is not the shape of the limbs, but the quality of the materials, and the arrows, especially the arrows.Basicly you want long draw on your bow because this will have more time and space to accelerate the arrow, and long and the thinest profile you can have wich is still safe to shoot without breaking or bending too much.
The bow i described, i build one and the first one i build over every other bow i've build was like wow, this thing is fast. I never measured the speed. But such a bow, i don't get why, it just doesn't work well with wood arrows. Is too snapy. For wood arrows you need a slower bow.
i just want a good fast shooting bow that isnt 15 feet long.
as bow string nears brace height string speed nears infinity
might be interesting to check speed on stacking draw lengths
The curve of the bow unstrung should not exceed 90° thats the mistake you made which resulted in it loosing its speed. It should not curve into itself
I'm a data scientist and I would love to get that data set you have and to some more statistical analysis.
Interesting, but complicated. I think some computer modeling software designed by mathematicians and engineers would negate the need for building and testing bows.
If you can design an efficient 30pound bow that outperforms your inefficient 45 pound bow...