Are Survive! Knives claims about CPM Magnacut legit?
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- This is a dive into my experience with Magnacut as compared to Survives issues.
Here is a statement from Niagra-
In case you were wanting to hear our side of the story:
Niagara Specialty Metals (NSM) has processed over 600,000 pounds of CPM MagnaCut since its inception in 2020.
From October 2021 until January 2023 NSM has sold or given Survive Knives 1,240 pounds of MagnaCut.
Survive complained about MagnaCut back in the fall of 2022. Since then, NSM has offered three times to take back anything they didn’t want to risk using. Survive did not take NSM up on the offers.
Survive had a large batch of MagnaCut decarbed at Peters in early 2023. This material was analyzed and found to be fine if .002” per side was removed. (Half the diameter of a human hair.)
Survive started posting videos about MagnaCut defects so we asked our business lawyer to reason with him to settle the matter. We made a generous offer despite not having evidence that the material was defective. They rejected the offer and said they wanted much more.
Guy claimed in a later video that NSM and Crucible are potentially supplying defective material to the aerospace industry. This is why we hired a litigation attorney and issued a cease and desist letter.
Further attempts were made to resolve the matter, but we couldn’t reach agreement.
This is the first time in our 42 year history we haven't been able to come to terms with a customer or had to get a lawyer involved. NSM ceased discussing the matter with Survive and made the business decision to stop spending money on legal fees.
Here is a statement from Niagra-
In case you were wanting to hear our side of the story:
Niagara Specialty Metals (NSM) has processed over 600,000 pounds of CPM MagnaCut since its inception in 2020.
From October 2021 until January 2023 NSM has sold or given Survive Knives 1,240 pounds of MagnaCut.
Survive complained about MagnaCut back in the fall of 2022. Since then, NSM has offered three times to take back anything they didn’t want to risk using. Survive did not take NSM up on the offers.
Survive had a large batch of MagnaCut decarbed at Peters in early 2023. This material was analyzed and found to be fine if .002” per side was removed. (Half the diameter of a human hair.)
Survive started posting videos about MagnaCut defects so we asked our business lawyer to reason with him to settle the matter. We made a generous offer despite not having evidence that the material was defective. They rejected the offer and said they wanted much more.
Guy claimed in a later video that NSM and Crucible are potentially supplying defective material to the aerospace industry. This is why we hired a litigation attorney and issued a cease and desist letter.
Further attempts were made to resolve the matter, but we couldn’t reach agreement.
This is the first time in our 42 year history we haven't been able to come to terms with a customer or had to get a lawyer involved. NSM ceased discussing the matter with Survive and made the business decision to stop spending money on legal fees.
That Tracks 100%, I believe transparent knives actually reproduced Survive Knives’ “defects” by not removing enough decarb from one of his knives and tumbling it, he removed a little bit of material and tumbled the knife and there was no issue. Everything I have seen survive post just looks like routine manufacturing challenges when bring a new material into a manufacturing process, the conspiracist overtones appeal to the ignorant and provide an excuse for Survive being extremely late on orders.
Well said and WAY more diplomatic than that other party deserves, especially considering they have 10 year old unfulfilled orders yet have time for 6 video updates a day.
We have zero ten year old orders. We have only been in business for 10 years. Also, the supposedly unbiased reporting seems funny, since my entire counterpoint was deleted from these comments. Anyway, they are addressed here. Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
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Very well spoken Gary.
Concise, polite, informative and professional.
I wouldn't believe a goddam word coming out of survives mouths. I can't believe that survive is still able to take money from people or that anyone in their right mind would willingly hand it over.
ETA: Per usual, the owner / his wife deflecting and making excuses. Never change.
I waited 8 years for my GSO 10 Survive knife….they surprisingly delivered it….but I wouldn’t trust another dime to them. Saying that…. Thank you for being another voice in what is seemingly a 1 sided argument….i’ll watch from the sidelines.
EIGHT years?!! Damn! I'm pretty patient, but no way I could be that patient! Amazing! Seriously...
Materials defects can’t create a delay that long. It’s a business practices issue.
This is the third steel Guy has labeled as “unusable”. I think it’s a him problem. Also, he should take his own advice with transparency and actually answer customer emails along with processing refunds.
Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
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@@Roland_D “because of this we cant keep track of each and every single order for everyone.”
LMAO. How the hell is this a thing in 2024?! I’ve dealt with businesses ran by one or two individuals that were able to bring up order information at a moment’s notice. There is no excuse for this level of incompetence. Dude, contact whatever service you used to purchase the knife and try to get your money back! Show them that message if you have to.
@@Surviveknivesnice thing to know that you have time to answer on a comment on youtube but can’t answer one of the 3 mails i sended you asking for a refund!
@@SurviveknivesMaybe if you got off your ass and got to work instead of constantly making videos full of excuses, you could clear that years-long backlog, pal. Just throwing out suggestions here. LOL
I ordered two knives from survive knives over 2 years ago and still haven't got them. I call them, email them no response. They always have some sort of manufacturing excuse for everything on their videos.
I ordered a single knife from them 11 months ago…still waiting!
However, i did email them in January and they confirmed that my order was still on file and waiting to be fulfilled!
I saved the email just in case they drop the ball and i have to seek remedy!
@@Bacnowyou'll probably never get it
@@HammerSmashedFace92 - That’s very possible! Not a big deal tho. I’ve already come to grips with that reality!
@@Bacnow if I were you..id go ahead and reach out to whatever payment processor you used to see about a refund before its too late for that.
@@Bacnowdon’t listen to the trolls. You’ll get your knife and will be perfect. I waited 2 years for knife from them before and it’s awesome. I have three of their knives and ordered a forth. It’s frustrating to say the least, but they will deliver.
You are an example of a knife maker with class and integrity. Survive! Knives is not. I’m one of those with a years-old I”infilled order with no end in sight.
Survive is probably trying to skip out on paying their bill with Niagara. Or blame Niagara for their shot comings. Survive has done this in the past.
Survive knives as a business is a joke.
He says he is being “transparent” but Guy limits or deletes comments on his social platforms.
I trust Survive Knives as much as I trust Hoback’s country of origin.
Survive has accused me of deleting comments on this video, I have not deleted one.
Have you even watched their content on YT? It seems like he legitimately shows that some of the sheets have consistency and void issues. They are making blades with MC, so they can do it. They are doing it. They’re just paying attention to QC IMO
Thank you ! , you, sir , showed what being a gentleman of class is .
Enough said
@@frostriver4547 I watched all the Magnacut content. There is no doubt they may have received some bad material. They state their loss rate @ 20%, but that seem pretty high to me. But even at that, it should not cause major delivery delays.
Good to hear it. I've carried a knife ever since I got my first cub scout pocketknife in 1971. Your Mako was my first magnacut blade and I love it. I've only had it for around a year but it has gotten pretty much daily use on a small ranch opening feed bags, cutting cardboard, trimming twine/leather, shaping pvc, etc. I've only had to strop it 3 times. Granted, I do use an old Izula 2 for the beater tasks but I can't ask for much better results with the magnacut. I have picked up two other magnacut blades, an Axial Shift otf and a leatherman, and have been very happy with them as well. I can't speak for what goes on in the industry but as an end user I've been more than satisfied with magnacut.
Since my responses to this video have apparently been deleted, I addressed some of what he is saying in this morning's video. Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
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@surviveknives isn't this grand pot calling the kettle black!!! You don't like not being able to respond 😅 kind of how you don't allow people to comment on your posts and your "updates" 😂 taking people's money in order to keep your flawed business afloat is the only scandal. Just my opinion. 🤷♂️
@@Surviveknivesgood, taste of your own medicine then. You deleted my comments and so many others over on your channel. If they're even remotely critical, seems you'd rather not have to deal with them or let other potential marks get scared off by them. You don't answer phone calls or emails, delete comments from your socials, duck requests for refunds, and continue to sit on all of our hard earned money with no product delivered for YEARS after the stated delivery window. These problems predated Magnacut. The problem isn't the steel; the problem is and always has been you and your sleazy business practices. Your complete unwillingness to accept any personal accountability is the real cherry on top. You've made your own bed and it's all gonna come back around to bite you in the a$$.
@@Surviveknives Guy, you are not the victim. You are deleting people's comments and posts.
Just be honest man.
They jst have to many peoples orders not fulfilled. Waiting 2-3yrs and longer without being told that upfront with promised sooner. Its jst theft at this point without refunds as well..
I ordered a knife so long ago I forget they even existed as a company until I heard about this latest dust up over the Magnacut. Looking at Blade Forums, I see the name of the company is mud there...
@willbrink That's crazy so so many stories of this happening. And people paying and getting nothing. Did you pay for it or jst an order made..
Really appreciate your education on this issue!!! Thanks for doing this video, now I have to pick up one of your blades!!!
My whole thing is why aren’t other manufacturers like reeves, schwarz, anyone else having these issues
Because these issues are very overstated in the linty of survive videos.
Because SURVIVE! needs controversy to hide their shady business model. They are con artists and using a ponzi type scheme.
Ask yourself why UA-camrs like WhatsthePOINT-EDC, HeavysetTsctical, and Choirboyz, are getting test knives...because he has to drum up new suckers to scam.
He's spent the preorder money on God knows what.
Pre-orders are drying up with the truth getting out.
Now he needs to flip the script and get new eyes on his knives. All while trying to hide reviews, comments, and keep them off Bladeforum.
Thank you very much Mr. Creely. The problem affected me because I have quite a few Magnacut knives. I have been happy with most of them so far. Only one knife had a small optical problem. However, the manufacturer offered me a replacement immediately. It was nothing that couldn't have happened with other steels.
I have three Mako. Out of Lc200n (Böhler N360), Vanax and Magnacut. I use all three. All three are great.
I find your statements to be objective.
Your video helps to remove some of my uncertainty on the subject.
I am not a manufacturer. But I buy a lot of knives. I am one of the people that the knife industry lives from. And it's simply not ideal for the knife industry to make people like me feel insecure. Maybe that's why I'll buy fewer knives one day.
Despite all the differences, the knife industry should not lose sight of the buyer.Unfortunately, this is exactly what SURVIVE does.
As I have been waiting a long time for my Magnacut order from SURVIVE, I know what I am talking about
Best regards Jörg
I really appreciate this perspective after watching the Survive! drama unfold. I found out about Creely Blade not long ago…I came across a Mako second hand, and I love everything about it. The way it fits my hand, the edge, the balance. I loved it so much, I put in a pre order for a Folklore right away, and looking forward to use it!
Words to live by, “The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.”
Thanks for trying to bring balance to the situation. As a small production knife maker, it’s hard to tell what’s what in this situation and it causes me to doubt my using of CPM steels.
I’m glad you shared your perspective and your confidence in these American made steels.
And guys like you are exactly why I made this video.
This supposedly unbiased party deleted my comments responding to this, so I'm not sure what to think of that. I do respond to his words in this video this morning though. Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
ua-cam.com/video/r-C6IxcjMLQ/v-deo.html
I hope the video below clarifies a few things contained in this content from Gary: Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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I have not deleted one of your comments, or any other.
I'm glad you spoke up about this. Nobody should take survive seriously. I have your Folklore and Mako, both in magnacut and they are performing perfectly.
Thanks for a very good explanation of your position. I enjoyed watching this video. I have two questions: was the footage of hot rolling steel sheets generic or specific to powder steel? second question: is it possible to heat treat several sheets and then use wire EDM to cut out blade profiles from several sheets at once to achieve less warpage and reduced after processing?
The footage is of facility actual Niagra facility. At this point most of us have figured out how to keep it straight. Wire EDM would be very costly.
Bravo Gary, IMO CPM Steels are world class! Survive Knifes on the other hand; not so much.
The Creely Blades I saw at the show where incredible. While some makers don't even bother to attend.
Thanks for the 6 micron diamond dust it; smells good and makes for a hair cutting edge.
Great video. That is something we really needed to hear. Let me restate that something i needed to hear. From someone that actually works with this steel as well. I was wondering why i haven't heard anything from barkriver or LT they all use CPM.
Im more a budget knife guy. An my smithing is old car springs.
Don't really care about corrosion resistance for my use. I prefer toughness and easy to sharpen. You did peak my interest on the 8670.
Good to hear a honest opinion.
This is why i sold my survive knives
Ditto
Thanks for your take on this. I really appreciate it. Keep up the good work.
I appreciate your input on this matter.
Thank you! I was really wondering why Survive was the only one having these "issues"
Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
ua-cam.com/video/bk_ka27ZnXM/v-deo.html
Excellent Video! Thanks for sharing this information.
I believe the problems survive is facing has little to nothing to do with the steel and everything to do with the owner's lack of accountability.
I mean, the owner has been posting updates. 🤷🏻♂️ I wonder if Creely Blades will respond to Survive Knives' recent video, it sorta contradicts this video. ua-cam.com/video/bk_ka27ZnXM/v-deo.html
good to get another view, I was thinking about making a couple of knives with Magnacut and the Survive thing had out me off, I will now go back to it and give it a go, Cheers!
Great info and well presented.
It's amazing to see how much noise survive's drama campaign has generated. And I'm not even all that plugged in to knife social media.
I'm glad to hear from someone in a position to know what he's talking about, and this lines up with what I have suspected. Of course, I'm not an expert by any means, not a knife maker, not a metallurgist, not a manufacturing process specialist, just a simple farmer familiar with the smell of ßul$hit.
I’m a manufacturing process development specialist, their claims are routine issues encountered when developing a new process not showstoppers.
Awesome video bud, thanks for your input. 😊
#SurviveBackLogCrew checking in. I’m just glad that the discussion is being had by others in the industry who are makers working with the same steels.
CONGRATS❗️VERY WELL PUT❣️
once I get my money back from them I will be looking at checking your product cause I had done that few years back when you had only three models , communication with them is extremely stressful the excuse is that they are small company and yet to involve his customers with a dispute and arguments with his steel supplyer does not do good nor for him nor for his customers to the point that at the end all I want is out and to be free from feeling sorry for him and myself and stressed out .All i want is to purchase a well made product and sincerely and with all decency and honesty is wishing the manufacturer and craftsman all the best in everything they desire because of product warranty and build customer and manufacturer trusted business relation for further purchasing from him
I have ordered a magnacut gso 5.1 from them 1 and a half years ago. Contacted them for updates/refund twice through email, not a single reply. Commented on their UA-cam channel to request for a refund, probably got me blocked. Because if I log out on UA-cam, my comments are not there. In their video, they made themselves victims who got bullied as a small business by a large manufacturer. Fact is, they are bullying me, a single customer, as a company.
I'm in the same situation. I already contacted the attorney general. Survive makes more money from the useless "production update" videos than the actual blades.
Doesn't Peters envelope the Magnicut in SS pouches when heat treating or use a vacuum furnace?
commercial heat treaters do not envelope steel, that’s a practice for makers, they use a vacuum furnace. Peters is an enormous commercial operation. I even had a kiln that had a nitrogen purge system so I did not have to use stainless envelopes.
@@Creelyblades I'm a hobby knife maker and do everything in house. I've made perhaps 10 blades with Magnacut, and had nothing but great success. I take payment when the blade is delivered, & this keeps my stress very low.
Should we check our magnacut knives in search of voids?
Makers and users are reaching out with photos and reports, illustrating exactly what we've seen observing. We will get to the bottom of this, our lab reports will be back shortly.
Very even handed! Thanks for the insight!
Hello, thank you for this video. If only I had this insight over a year ago when I foolishly ordered a blade from Survive and not from you.
Great video great explanation
Words from a man with integrity speak loudly.
Survive Your-Order-Hasn't-Been-Filled-After-Three-Years Knives? THAT Survive Knives? I see no credibility problems there.
The problem is a lot of people don’t know the context, and start to believe a particular narrative that may not be representative of reality.
Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
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Good analysis.
Thank you!!!
Yeah i bought a survive knife before i knew about all the drama. I don't mind waiting a bit, but hopefully it won't be 8 years 😅
My hat is off to you. Common sense and thoughtful insight.
My take on it is primarily that Guy/Gary/?? over at Survive! went into the manufacturing side without a grasp of the loss and waste realities in manufacturing. Perhaps a fair analogy would be the dude who decides to open up a restaurant because he absolutely loves cooking shows, and then loses his shit when he can't get produce as perfect as he sees in the cooking shows. In REAL manufacturing, like real restaurants, you don't get 100% perfect materials. Things go wrong occasionally in the processes. Tooling breaks at inopportune times, etc, etc. Planning with insufficient margin of error is a risky proposition.
I like the look of a number of his knives, and I hope that he can get it all together. I won't say he's his own worst enemy, but he has done more than a few things that may have made sense to him at the time, but, from the outside, have been counterproductive. The secondary aspect of my take is simply this: He's gotta change his attitude. Embrace the suck, be a happy warrior.
Oh, and I don't have any concerns about CPM steels. I have a Magnacut fixed blade winding its way through the postal/package system as I write this, and am eagerly looking forward to Spyderco's Salty PM2. I'm this close to pulling the trigger on a 3V fixed blade as well.
I work doing manufacturing process development and I have the same observation.
He should be able to price in scrap and rework into the final price of his product. I feel like he hasn’t done a cost of goods analysis that accounts for loss.
This explanation is probably the closest to reality.
I've ordered from Guy at Survive and yeah, I did wait a long time for a few orders. What I can also say is I can never complain about the quality of what I got from them. What I don't get is why Guy would need to sign an damned NDA and why they won't give him his material samples back or material reports that confirm what they say, that's he is doing this. I have worked in manufacturing and I can't think of one damned way he could be doing this or why it would only be magnacut. I mean, have you seen the request he made in this video? He looks like he wants answers to real questions. The video is recent, Magnacut Q & A: Our Next Steps ua-cam.com/video/2SuiZJ2R2f4/v-deo.html
Is it Gary here at Creely Knives? Didn't he invite you to his shop? I feel like that would've cleared up a lot, before you made this video. He recently made a response video, I think, almost directly to you, buddy. Are you going to respond with a follow up or go visit his shop? Here is that video, Magnacut Q&A: Our Finishing Process
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Like I said, I'm only a customer but this video looks to be misleading.
When u said magnacut moved a little bit after heat treat, what does that mean? What’s your straightness/flatness number over, say, 9”?
At this point, knowing the processes that need to happen to keep it straight, I would say on a 9 inch blade I might see anything from .025” to next to nothing. That’s very manageable for my process.
@@Creelyblades from tip to tip? Or from the choil to tip?
@@Genesislights from butt to tip
@@Creelyblades Makes sense. No straightening prior bevel grinding? .025” if it is consistent is one thing, but if it varies, it’s challenging to maintain bevel symmetry in high volume CNC grinding applications. Bevel symmetry determines your sharpened edge quality too.
I waited 3 yrs to get my knife from Survive and when I finally got it I received the wrong knife made from the wrong steel and was told it would take a while to fix the error on their end. That was 14 mos ago. Still waiting.
what about making a knife out of maraging steel?
That does not move and is supertough?
Much thanks for making this..
*SubD*
Is there something in particular about knives and knife making that attracts...unique character types? I see the attitude (and business model/work ethic) from Survive! knives quite often in this industry
Ya? who else were you thinking of?
At this point with all the people who have ordered and paid for knives from the company mentioned in this video , and have not recieved said knives. Sounds to me a class action lawsuit for fraud should be filed. If said company were to be in communication with its customer base that might not be an issue . But i have heard countless people complain on almost every knife channel that said company ignores repeated attempts at communication . Maybe a district attorney should look into said allegations also ... just a couple thoughts and ideas for anyone who is having these problems with said company .
To be honest I like Survive!. The knives I have from them are good quality, but all the hate videos being put out lately by them has not been productive. They have some work to do and it is clear that they are still learning and catching up to the manufacturing side of the business they only recently brought in house. 1st knife i bought took 6ish years to arrive and I honestly forgot about it until I got the email. The second took 7 months which was an improvement after they took over manufacturing. Like you said Gary, Guy specifies in his videos the voids and issues become apparent after their peening process which I (a non knife maker) would think as a business would redirect efforts into a different process that doesn’t have a negative impact on this particular blade steel since other major manufacturers moving more massive amounts of the stuff are not having widespread issues. Transparency into the process is important especially with the wait times however, venting on the internet is not the right call. I respect Guy but I feel overwhelming negativity towards his wait times over the years is wearing him down to this point.
Six years ! 😮
@@Hungrybird474 There are still outstanding orders from 2015, 2016, and 2017 that still have not been completed, so that's about right.
I hope this video clarifies some things. This isn't only coming up in finishing. Some folks are trying to create that narrative, but it is simply not true. Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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@@SurviveknivesDude, you're a bum, and the kit knives you sell are mediocre, or rather they would be if anyone ever received theirs. Where are the orders from four, five, six years ago? Let me guess, need to put out another preorder so you can get some spending money to finally get those done? LOL Just kidding, we all know it sure won't go towards making knives, because you are a bum. And since this isn't your channel, you can't delete this comment. Oops!
@@SurviveknivesI love how you continue to blame others, the same as you've done to all your previous suppliers.
Dutch bushcraft knives shot a bark river magnacut knife and it snapped in half at the gimping area of the blade. They were genuinely surprised and disappointed. They blamed the gimping, which to me is illogical, but they hadn’t yet heard about the voids. There seems to me to be a problem here.
It is not illogical , gimping or any hard angle creates stress risers which are weak points.
It broke during batoning due to material defects (they discuss it towards the end of the video).
We had already been seeing Magnacut anomalies during production in late 2022, as you can see in email communications we've released, between our company and Niagara Specialty Metals. That DBK video is when I became hyper aware of what those anomalies could mean and we began rigorously inspecting blades. Any meaningful anomalies are pulled from production as soon as we see them. Minor issues are marked as a Factory 2nd, for greater traceability. Anything major is scrapped.
As a response to some insinuations made in this Creely video, we made this response. I hope this clears up any confusion this video may have caused. Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
ua-cam.com/video/bk_ka27ZnXM/v-deo.html
I had a GSO 5.1 ordered in Magnacut 2 years ago. About two months ago, was fustrated with all their DRAMA and excuses over Magnacut and told them to switch my order to CPM-3V! Two weeks ago finally fed up and asked for a full refund, a few days later, got an email my GSO 5.1 in CPM-3V was shipping! Whew! Got it and it was BEAUTIFUL! But I will never pre-pay 100% for a knife ever again! I know our economy is getting ready to collapse and I figured I'd never see the knife anyway, but I lucked out! I have a bad feeling , many knife companies are going to get hit hard by the upcoming Wall Street/Banker Armegedon! We ALL will be!
I work in manufacturing process development specifically in scaling process development. The issues they are facing are routine manufacturing challenges, you just price in the cost of scrap and secondary processes and keep rolling. It shouldn’t delay production for years.
I feel like survive knives is deflecting blame and using people’s ignorance of manufacturing and process development.
No it's not. He's claimed 50+% rejection of contracted work before. He's a liar. Nobody is that bad.
Please, clarify where were are falling short: Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
ua-cam.com/video/bk_ka27ZnXM/v-deo.html
@@Surviveknives I think are falling short in your business practices, the full payment for preorder thing is trapping you in a situation where you can’t make money if a manufacturing process is more expensive than you anticipated. Even with the claimed 20% reject rate you can price it into your product and consumers would happily pay because you produce one some of the most excellent knives on the market and your prices would still be below a company like bark River honestly I don’t know how you guys make money with your prices being as low as they are.
I don’t think people would hate on you guys for charging 20% more for a knife in magna-cut if they got it in a timely manner because you guys are widely seen as being on par with if not better than most custom knife makers.
Interesting survive blames cpm steels, we all have been using them for years with great results. One company has an issue with it. Company seems to have many issues. Maybe new management for survive. Terrible history it seems.
My response comments in this video have been deleted, but I did respond to these words in my own video this morning. Morning Reflections 2.20.2024
ua-cam.com/video/r-C6IxcjMLQ/v-deo.html
@@Surviveknivessuuuure sure. "Deleted" right right
I'm a hobby maker, and I have had great success using Magnacut and other CPM steels as well.
I bought 2 mkm knives in magnacut both seem fine to me, I have a vault full of knives from really cheap to expensive. Survive has had my money since 11/7/22, the full amount!
I really respect the transparency that you shows and the way you handle some of these things.
How with the compressive peening as I understand it from what they have said (which is to say I don't understand it on my own at all) their process doesn't create the voids but it makes imperfections and inconsistencies like carbon stringers etc visible- so a process that makes otherwise invisible issues visible.
With that being said when DBK broke the brk&t in magnacut it did have voids in the steel on the inside.
NOT that a SINGLE example proves ANYTHING and I'm not saying that or even that what Survive is saying is legit- honestly I don't even know.
It's an interesting situation and maybe I can do a video with guy and get some things clarified.
I bought a survive in 3v at a shop in Maryland several years ago, it's good quality and I like it. Liking a knife however does not excuse what he is doing now and the decade long backorders and continual lies regarding fulfillment. It's also incredibly misleading to put up lists with refunded orders listed as "fulfilled" in order to encourage people to do full price preorders. What is most troubling however, even this very week there was a request from a customer saying he was unable to get a refund and guy essentially told him too bad in a big long paragraph, which is actually illegal. Many companies put out an equal or often superior product without these issues and there is no place for that sort of behavior, certainly not when it has grown into bashing small American businesses that actually delivery good products and employ people. Shame on him and anything less than full accountability isn't of interest to most of us who are aware of the entirety of the circumstances. I would also advise him to make fewer videos and fulfill people's back orders or refund them.
If the ball peening process exposes issues with the material, just price in the cost of scrap to the final product. It doesn’t stop you from rolling out product. failing to do so it a business practices defect not a materials defect.
@nandayane that's what they are attempting to do- but there is a certain point where losses are to much to remain profitable.
Well-done and common-sense video that avoids the emotion that surrounds others' commentary on this issue.
I’ve been waiting 15 years to get my GSO knife. My mom ordered it for me when I was in pre school and I still never got it.
🤣
Great info. New subscriber.
U get steel from niagra?
Yes, directly. And from many other suppliers.
Interesting. Thanks. toronto canada.
Good video
Yeah, he said he was stopping manufacturing knives with the Delta protocol cpm3v but apparently they resolved this and are making them again.
Survive! has a terrible rep all around from what I see on the big forums, so this seems another nail in ye coffin for them.
Not sure I want a blade that has been hammered and stressed to straighten it
That’s a pretty standard accepted practice, I have another video about that specifically actually. There’s some pretty high-end knife makers you would recognize that do that a standard practice.
I had some issues with magnacut on the first batch. Seems like it's all good now though.
I did as well, it was a matter of me, working out my process, and then working out theirs. I will say I was able to make all of it work.
Professionally said.
Survive Knives reminds me of one of those “Guy’s” (pun-intended) that never developed the ability to see their own destructive nature. There seems to be a fear of internalizing anything that effects the narrative they create, causing any problems to be externalized to anything but themselves. This delusion is typically their downfall in that they make everything about themselves and end up alienating the relationships around them. Part of their delusion is that they think their smarter than most, and tend to think they can fool the world into seeing things their way... I’m guessing you know to type and are just being too kind.
They seem to have more problems with steel than any other companies who use the exact same steels.
Well, honestly I'm a bit biased towards most stuff that comes out of America, it's a sort of cultural prejudice but I think that no one can really complain about Zippo lighters and MagnaCut steel.
Survive! Never made knives. They bolted parts together. They took money and never bought parts. Now they are there own "manufacturer" and they can't do it...I guess it was Survive! that was the issue all along...now it's the steel. What's next?
Wow, that's pretty low, even coming from you. Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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@@Surviveknives Not responding to emails, not making blades you owe, BUT defending your lies online...how about you issue one of the hundreds of refund requests...better yet, allow open comments on YT or Instagram. You can't because it would ruin your BS narrative. It's all coming crumbling down soon.
@@Surviveknivesalso, how many knives are you sending to UA-camrs hoping to get new people to scam?
I am a knife maker and survive gso 6 owner. I love the knife but I wouldn’t be able to get away with 10% of the backhanded customer service and shady practices they do. I’m hoping you all get your knives you paid for.
I’ve made tons of blades w magnacut and he is waaay overstating the issues w the steel. He just needs to learn to surface grind better. I could have made those turn out just fine. You need people in house who know how to use a grinder. I’m not saying they don’t but it seems him giving up on those blades says different.
As much as his arrogance and ignorance kind of shines through there’s no way in hell any of his processes is causing inclusions in the metal like that!
The inclusions seem to have come by 2 ways. One is appearing durring the grinding process. They grind there bevels with a mill with a cupped wheel which is pretty rare, especially for fixed blade. The other comes by way of what they call "compresive peening" blowing out chunks. No denying they had issues with the steel that came from imperfections in the steel, but......... does that equal a 100% loss of a batch, by there own admision the said the had a 20%. My questioning is with scope of the issues, not that there were in fact legit issues. In production there are always legit issues to be dealt with, but the idea that CPM is so problematic that the could not produce blades from dozens of sheets is way outside of the vast majority of the industries experience (and reality).
@@Creelyblades sir, people have ground steels on the most questionable things, with the most questionable materials. Cupped, flat, pointed..... voids are still voids. Hence issue within the metal itself. Same as if one was to not heat treat properly. Molecular voids or re-arrangememt of molecular compounds... softer steel, harder steel, big grain structures, small grain structures, etc. Voids = weakness. Weakness leads to blade breakage, edge chipping, etc. Why would one buy a blade knowing that there might be an internal integrity issue?
@@jakes255 They have shown very few blades with voids compared to the number of blade they have cut out. I suspect they may have had a bad sheet, but it was an anomaly at worst. Niagra gave them replacement sheets.
when you blame your materials and other people as much as this person has been doing....it's a pretty clear case of projection and deflection...
I'm going to believe the evidence in front of my eyes on this one. Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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well yea, isn't it your evidence if front of your eyes? @@Surviveknives
Great video for an OCD Narcissitic Sociophath to watch!!! Not naming any names but "Cry at Surprise Knife"!😎👍
Mr Creely, I have no dog in this Magnacut Survive Knives fiasco either. I also have not made NEAR the number of knives in Magnacut that they have, or that you have. I would say I have made about 12 knives in Magnacut. Out of that dozen, TWO of them had big inclusions in the steel that only manifested after grinding in the bevels. So one in six Magnacut blades in my shop showed inclusions. This was before I knew anything about the issues at Survive. I do not do the peening process that they do. My finishes are simply hand rubbed satin finishes. Luckly, on both occasions in my shop, the inclusion was high enough in the bevel that I was able to thin the knives out and remove the inclusions (It really is more like a void where something inside the steel has been torn out. I looks something like a 16 grit scratch in the steel, you can get your fingernail caught in it.) I contacted Bob at NSM and they made it right by me and sent another bar my way. But I just don't understand this whole thing. I am a little guy in the knife making community. One dude doing it all, every single process is done in house. But I have to say, I completely know where Guy is coming from. I am just shocked that no one else is seeing this in Magnacut. Again, I've only done maybe a dozen, but out of that dozen, two of them had inclusions. The only other steel that I ever had an inclusion in was CPM154. I have never used CPM 3V. So, from my perspective, something is rotten in Denmark. Anyways, that is my 2 cents.
Although I have not found any of those issues over many sheets of cpm steel, I do not doubt they can and have happened (including to survive). 2 in 12 is not the norm, especially considering those 2 were likely from same area of the same sheet. My contention is not that there is never issues in the steel, my contention is they are nowhere near the degree being described by survive. Why is survive worried about getting eight samples back, if it was so widespread, who would care? You would have tons of samples that are problematic. I don’t doubt there were some bad spots, especially in those early sheets, but that’s nothing that should be shutting your production line down and causing you to go out of business. The video was not so much to dispute the problem, rather to dispute the scope.
When I watched the survive video it sounded like they just hadn't set up their process for magnacut I've watched tons of videos on magnacut and every big knife maker had to totally revamp their process in order to use the steel because it is different to work with like any other steel would be. Sounds like they just expect all steels to operate the same and don't pay attention to the chemistry behind it😂 I bet if they change their processes and adjust for magnacut being what it is they wouldn't have these issues
I have asked the manufacturer of the steel to clarify what we could possibly be doing wrong. I have observed other company's processes and we are doing everything at least as well as they are. I hope this video clarifies a few things. Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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Survive just might not...well...survive...this scandal.
I'll see myself out.
Survive Knives is not well managed. They also don't keep their word and are not truthful. At least that was my experience with them. Unless everyone in that company is replaced, I will never do business with them again.
He is only talking about magnacut. 1000 knives is not near the amount of questionable magnacut blanks, in which survive has laying around. People are missing the entire point. Why would one continue labor on a questionable product, when it goes against their entire quality standards? .... I agree numbers would help. Knowing how many are truly bad vs how many good. But who is gonna eat the time and money to grind all of them to find the percentage of error. That's the main issue. Time = money. They are all survives blank models, so to be fair, they would all have to be finished using the exact same machines and processes. I agree the decarbonization issue is a totally different issue, nothing to do with this. My only other thing in the industry I have notice, just a observation; not many production knives in magnacut seem to be larger then folders. Sure there are kitchen knives and larger, but wouldn't you say more in small bladed production folders? So with this thought, less issues would be seen due to the less steel. Smaller surface area = a small error margin. Just curious. Lastly, the voids that were found...... Man those are voids. Not one person can say they are not. That does not happen in grinding. It doesn't take a huge knowledge of metal to see and understand those voids. Voids = weakness, which again goes against survives quality standards. He is not attacking anyone, he is asking questions on QC from the manufacturer of said product and being ignored and passed over. All they had to do was re-send some more sheets of metal and it would have been squashed along time ago. American businesses should stand behind their products and our businesses should stand with one another, even in times of QC issues, etc. Be present and be accountable for one another.
I am not sure what qualifies as “questionable”. Decarb was not a Magnacut issue and I believe that resulted in a large number of out of spec blades. In terms of inclusions there has only been a handful on camera, and the concern over getting just 8 back leads one to believe there were not that many in the first place. My skepticism is not of the existence an issue, rather is scope.
@@CreelybladesI'm sorry Man but after watching this video and reading all these comments, it feels more like you are working for the steel company over just giving information. You are overlooking a LOT to keep your story together.
@@The_Ken_Martin Well, I can see why you may feel that way, but I honestly believe the issue is overstated. You may want to reconsider who is over looking a lot as it relates to this situation. I make quality knives with these same materials and have not experienced any of the issues stated here outside of moving during heat treatment. Major manufacturers like Benchmade and Spyderco have not had major loss issues with the steel. Again, I am not denying or suggesting, they did not have issues, I’m suggesting that the scope of these issues is quite different than how they are being portrayed. If that makes a shill for the steel companies to you, then so be it. Consider this, this is the only company in the world I am aware of where issues with Magnacut were to a degree that they could not deliver knives.
Isnt his issue that magnacut was a rushed release with published data sheets being unreliable, which is why the decarb happened? And about the voids and compressive peening - I would sure want to have this investigated, not just waved off as a non-issue, because others do not have this particular process in their manufacturing setup. I was rather excited for magnacut, but still waiting it out. It really feels like modern gaming releases - release buggy product and deal with bugs for years after.
The decarb has nothing to do with the magnacut. Any stainless heated to that temp will decarb like that, to suggest that something particular to Magda cut is playing on the ignorance of listeners who don’t know how these things work. The idea that the steel was rushed to market is their characterization of the situation, it is not uncommon to tweak the data sheet as a new steel gets into broader production. i’m not suggesting there were not some issues with certain batches of Magnacut, I’m pushing back on the the characterization of the scale and the scope of those problems. Certainly it was a new steel, but one could also argue taking a mountain of presales on a steel. You don’t have much experience with, perhaps is a bigger issue than the steel supplier dialing in some of the handling processes.
Magnacut Q & A: Our Finishing Process
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Last year Magncut still was the holy Grail of steel and and a Knife company increase the price 10 20%
Magnacut is still probably one of the best all around stainless steel ever made.
Thank you for your perspective. However, Niagra's refusal to return Survive's defective samples that were sent to them is very dubious at best. This would imply that Niagra has confirmed, or at least been unable to explain, Survive's issues with the metal that was delivered to them.
I also find it strange that other manufacturers, such as yourself, have not had the same issues. I suspect that there is much more to Survive's issues with Niagra or CPM than both sides are divulging.
If the issues were so wide spread, why would they be so worried about 8 examples out of thousands of blades?
Survive mentioned that they had disposed of most of the defective materials that they had received, but it is unclear how much of their material was disposed of. In fact, I commented on their UA-cam channel to stop disposing of the defective materials and keep them as evidence for a future lawsuit.
However, it is odd that Survive is making such a big deal over a handful of samples. Perhaps these samples were the worse of the batch and they want them back to present later during litigation.@@Creelyblades
@@RV-ardvarkGuy shows piles of old stock blades he has transported across the country but not he threw away the bad steel samples? Why would you throw away the evidence? Especially if you were hoping for resolution... Guy is a liar.
There's only one real way to get to the bottom of it (the inclusions). There needs to be independent analysis of the shopfloor, shop machines and process and the steel that is affected. If it is the material, then appropriate actions need to be done. The same if it's the process. No one party is right, until such analysis, assessment is done. People can make mistakes but must be accountable and responsible for them.
There are issues in manufacturing any product, they’re always are. Is it possible survive got a few bad sheets of steel, maybe. From what it looks like they had a handful of parts, considering there have been dozens of videos done by them and we’ve only seen maybe a dozen or so parts out of many thousands with the voids. Having some loss should not shut down your production and create the kind of delays that they are having. At this point there are probably hundreds of thousands of blades out there with this steel, if there were catastrophic issues with the steel in any sort of widespread way, it would be very clear in the marketplace at this point. In other words, flawed steels would make flawed knives, and that is not what we are hearing about Magnacut in the marketplace. The idea that we need some kind of major study done because of the experience of this one company that has had a dubious track record is just insane to me. Nonetheless studies are being done, and we will have some results soon.
Just stumbled across this guy's channel but it looks like Survive plans to follow through with studies. I bought knives from them and I've had to wait but I can't find anyone who ever complains about their quality, especially at their price. This magna crap situation aside, they seem to be doing pretty good now that they're on their own. ua-cam.com/video/bk_ka27ZnXM/v-deo.html
Looking at their recent posts, it seems they are in fact having independent lab reports done.
@@The_Ken_Martin Those reports do not speak to scope
Good to not pay in full for something that takes over 2 months. You put yourself outside the chargeback rights of your credit card. Non starter for me. I only bought my Survive recently, and did so from the in stock inventory. Wouldnt do business any other way. $35 is a reasonable down payment that can be lived with. Full pay? No. Good choice on Creelys part. And good choice for Survive to move more to current stock. Live and learn in business, i guess.
Wow always some drama in the knife community. What's new. In today's eppisode.... THIS! There may be some issues with all the claims he's making. Like, legal issues. He may have already shot some holes in his hull. I wish everyone well.
Sorry jury is still out for me. Survive acknowledged the decarb issue with Peters heat treat. The warping issue you confirmed but essentially dismissed as not a big deal. The void issue, which to me is the more significant problem, you provided no insight at all. Survive is showing the voids in the videos and they are within the steel. Additionally your video literally looks to be made from Niagara specialty metals stock video complete with logo. You state that you don't have a dog in the fight and that you wish the best for survive. But the video and the defense of Niagara shows your bias. Which is fine we all have them. But the video in no way answers the problems being experienced. Specifically with regard to voids.
fair enough. The first two issues aren’t actually issues at all. The voids are definitely an issue, but I did shed some light on that issue in terms of it, not being a common issue. consider the fact that survive is trying to produce thousands of blades in Magna cut and we’ve only seen a handful of blades with those void issues. i’m not suggesting CPM steals or Niagra make the perfect product, I’m just suggesting the idea that the product is so bad that you can’t produce Knives is just ridiculous. Worst case scenario you have a certain percentage of loss which is pretty low, and you always have to bake in a little bit of loss anyway. I’m not saying they did not have issues, I’m just saying those issues are dramatically overstated, and are not responsible for all their issues.
@@Creelyblades If I recall correctly Survive claims the failure is about 20%. Which is significant. I have no way of knowing if this is accurate. Or if he is including all perceived defects, warping etc. I work in manufacturing using various types and grades of steel. Not knife manufacturing so it’s not apples to apples. But we have experienced problems with sourced materials many times. Some of the suppliers try to deny the problem and it becomes a battle to get restitution. With that said we are a very large company and the potential loss of our business is significant enough to typically get a supplier engineer in for a joint examination. When the failures we claim are confirmed. They then issue a credit. The typical/ avg. scrap percentage we sell off as scrap at scrap prices. Which is less than the purchase/manufacturing price. So it’s sold as scrap at a loss. Those losses are added to the purchase price of our completed product. So more expensive for the consumer. We can do that within reason. But if our scrap percentage was at 20% it would be an issue. In our industry it would affect our competitive pricing. With that said for the product Survive produces their prices seem reasonable. The question would be if he could add cost to compensate for the scrap and remain profitable at those prices. I would like to see both parties resolve this. I would think an independent lab could easily x-ray the material and confirm voids. But perhaps that is too expensive for these companies. Finally I would say that the points that stick out to me. 1) He allegedly has no issues with the Bohler 890. If it was all about him being a bad businessman why would that matter. 2) To the latter part of that point too many people seem to want to deflect from the defect and point to order problems. It is always suspect to me when people ignore a specific separate problem with “what about x”. Clearly there are defects, however minimal. As a manufacturer you would work to address them. Lastly question for you being a knife maker. Regarding the warping. Which looks fairly significant in some of the samples. I would expect the material would need to be relieved some to straighten it. Does doing so affect the composition or durability of the steel in any way however minimal? What process is typically used and what are, if any the negative effects? Are there any positive effects, other than straightening the blade? Sorry for the long post. Like you I don’t have a dog in the fight other than curiosity on the failure. And for educated purchasing of knife and steel types.
Have you been following Survive for quite a few years or just recently? All the drama with Magnacut could very well be fully justified. However, when you add up all the public drama they have had over the years, it is extremely suspect. There was the shop fire. The move/moving expenses. The predatory loans. The issues and fallout with Millet. The supply issues. The kydex sheath delays. The second shop move. The leasing issue. The issues they had with two other steels. Employee/staffing issues. The machinery breaking down. People asking for refunds because they felt 6+ years was way too long to wait for a fixed blade knife paid in full up front...
They do make a great product, but has been over a decade of one thing after another and after a while, it starts to come across as more excuses to justify the 10 year outstanding orders@@user-ml4ry8zi7o
@@KandKo I have not followed them for a long time. Nor have I purchased one of their knives. I’m looking at the matter specifically reviewing nature of the failure. If they (Survive) are as bad at business as folks are saying then they will not be around long. With that said it still doesn’t put Magnacut or the supplier in good light if there is a clear defect and they choose to not make good on it. If the accusations Survive makes are false then the supplier could end it fast via legal means. But it appears that hasn’t been done and instead I just see posts on back orders etc. It’s possible for both to be true. I have had poor quality experience with Bark River to the point I will never purchase another. And have heard of the same experiences from others. Yet some fans rave about them. Any company can run into problems with manufacturing or materials. It’s how they deal with the problem that can make the difference.
Survive knives are overrated and over priced. I’ll take an Esee over a Survive knife all day!!
Different strokes for different folks. For what survive is trying to deliver their price is probably too low. The issue with survive is that they are blaming tons of production issues on material quality. My reply is simply to say the quality of the materials is not what they are saying it is.
@@Creelyblades True
@@Creelybladesthe price is part of their scam...too good to pass up. Then they have your funds and you can't get communication or refund.
Personally think these kinds of Gucci knives are hugely overrated.
There is no point paying vast amounts of money for a "theoretically" better knife ..... that isnt.
I have seen way too many destruction videos of high end knives where "something went wrong" because heat treat, steel quality etc etc etc. Nobody cares.
Only the other day I saw a Falkniven delaminating and Im sure the company has excuses about that.
If you are paying top dollar you want a better knife, not a nicer box and a fancy brand.
Frankly I would rather roll with an older design, with worse steel, by a company that has been churning them out reliably for decades.
You dont hear anyone complaining about bad batches of M95s or Glock knives.
CPM steels are more predictable ... period.
Not your original intent, but this still doesn’t answer why people with 3V orders are waiting 5-8 years for delivery.
mine 10 is to say that CPM steel quality is generally pretty consistent and certainly not an excuse for any significant delay, no last one that lasts for many years.
Lol. Sounds like some knife drama. 🎉
post deleted. cute.
I have not erased one comment on this entire video, even when survive Knives was on it pretending to be somebody else.
@@Creelyblades my comment was deleted. not pointing fingers at who deleted it.
@@TeeBone-xo6jw I have had a few people say that on this video. I have not removed any, but apparently youtube does it sometimes.
HOW DOES CHIP OUTS AND WAAAY TO FAST DULLING IN A MAGNA SEB 31
what’s the hrc?
Test@@Creelyblades
Well thay now all depends where you measure it.@Creelyblades
@Creelyblades mostly I'm saying that magnacut is a nice ideal but it's not our lord and savior. It's still made with a large scale industrial process that can have issues ... like any thing else
What do you make of his claims that Böhler’s microclean steel is far superior to CPM steels? Furthermore he claims he has had no issues with Böhler K890 during production, from parts coming back from heat treat straight to his compressive peening process during finishing.
Now at first I thought maybe he was on to something but then it quickly dawned on me that K890 has a very different composition and overall properties versus magnacut. K890 is a non stainless steel, very high toughness, high compressive strength, lower vanadium with a decent amount of both tungsten and cobalt added, plus according to the data sheet the heat treatment and tempering are fairly simple and no cryo required. So it’s probably much better suited for “compressive peening” or any other aggressive finishing practices. So comparing the two really doesn’t feel like an honest comparison if your just presenting them at face value to someone who doesn’t understand the differences or how those differences would play a role in your manufacturing processes.
bohler makes a good product, and I’m confident in their steel as well. There’s a couple things to consider here. The big thing to know about Boller is that, although they have a couple of analogues of CPM products, there are a lot of grades that they do not make a direct equivalent of. Magna cut is the most obvious one of those grades, but there are several others. I have had great luck with their product, but the issue with them is availability, CPM is much more reliable in that regard.
Just send the dude some new sheets. And he can then start shipping peoples blades again.
they did