Honestly, the longer I have my snakes (8 years now), the more guilty I feel. Their life seems so meaningless, living in a box 24/7. At the same time, I'm still obsessed with them and I enjoy watching them every day and sometimes I'm even playing with the idea of getting another one (which I won't do). Also, I've travelled a few times to SE Asia to go herping and when I'm there, seeing these snakes in the wild, it feels really weird that I have them in a box over in Europe. I just don't believe in it anymore and I've shifted towards herping more instead of keeping, which is way more satisfying. I used to be proud that I kept snakes but now I don't tell anyone anymore. So yeah, I feel very conflicted because snakes (pythons) are still my biggest passion in life.
@@JBVG1978 I really appreciate your honesty and saying these thoughts out loud. I'm also on the same boat with you. I've had my snakes for 11 years now and during the recent years I've started to feel bad for them. The relationship I have with my snakes feels mostly one-sided. I love them, but they will at best just tolerate me in return (the species I have don't live in social groups). I've upgraded their enclosures many times, but it's not never going to be as spacey or stimulating as in the wild - not even close. I feel like I've gotten much more out of them being in my life, than they have gotten from me. As an act of love for snakes/reptiles, I'm also leaning towards herping rather than keeping. I also don't really talk about my snakes anymore to people, since I don't want to encourage people to start keeping reptiles. The more I know about the pet industry in general and how rampant animal neglect/ab*se is in the animal keeping scene, the more I've been moving away from it. The last snake I took in was a rescue that I adopted. I can't imagine taking in any animals anymore other than rescues.
The only thing I keep is a beardie, so no I don't feel guilty. Obviously even "beginner pets" still deserve as much enrichment in their lives as possible. I feel infinitely more guilty about all the poor reptiles who suffer and die in the wild, alone and afraid.
I don’t feel guilty because most false chameleons are coming from “farms” and I take wonderful care and also breeding them so that others can have healthy babies.
I would say that the tiny geckos I keep and breed in my shed are critically threatened in the wild and actually need hobbyists and breeders to keep the species from going extinct...so I feel proud to be part of the devotees keeping and breeding these specific geckos. Bioactive, fully planted and scaped habitats with all perches and hiding spots they could ever want and need, I give them the best light quality that I can afford, feed them a diverse diet of live and prepared food and hand spray their enclosures twice a day. I monitor their health...and have noticed I need to tone down the portion sizes a notch. No guilt here. Having said that...I do wish they could be released in large numbers back in the wild to thrive in their native habitat, but that is not possible.
You should always feel guilty about keeping pets because you are responsible for them. Not only for the care but their mental well-being as well, and you can always do more. My reptiles are pets and family just as my dogs are. I'm always trying to provide them more enrichment and more experiences the best way that I can. I think with reptiles, it's just harder to have faith in your care because you don't have that immediate feedback that's present with say a dog...and although I'm convinced there is some level of bond with reptiles, it's nothing like the love you can share with a dog. I think everyone in the reptile keeping space feels guilt to some degree...I also think that's precisely the reason people go after each other so much on their differences in care. It's projection... they all feel that same guilt and some people deal with that guilt by going after others for the specific areas where they know their care is superior just to feel better about whatever it is making themselves feel guilty. That energy is always best served, going back into your own animals. I know there is abuse out there as well and I'm not diminishing that or saying it shouldn't be called out, but someone adding 2 more sq feet to an enclosure to match your idea of the "minimum enclosure size required" isn't you confronting abuse...it's just you avoiding your own guilt.
Never thought I would find such a nuanced and sophisticated conversation on keeping reptiles. Even though I am not big in the hobby, I am eager to listen to more, great guest!
Dillon, Phil…thanks for a very thought-provoking episode! After decades of keeping, the reward and fulfilment of producing/preserving some critically endangered species and sharing the knowledge I’ve acquired offsets the guilt.
There is a sect of Hindu where breast feeding baby deer is part of their practice. That might be what Phil was thinking of. Fantastic episode, gentlemen. Phil is always a great guest. There is so much that can be said about this issue I could talk all day....LOL. Maybe one useful thing I could add has to do with how we treat other keepers regarding the specific issue of money. Time and again I see people post a question about how they can do something or provide something for their reptile cheaply or on a budget. And immediately they get flamed with..."If you can't afford whatever it is then you shouldn't have a pet". How is that possibly helping this person or their animal? You don't know anything about their situation or how they manage their finances. HELP them. Be creative. But be honest. Of course your bearded dragon really does need UVB. Helping them figure out creative ways to provide decor, hides, enrichment might allow them to afford a good UVB fixture. Anyway..thanks again for a great video!
Growing up,I mostly had birds and sometimes had those feelings,finally realizing that this is all the birds knew and would not be pining for the great outdoors...I seldom feel guilty about keeping any pet in captivity now.
I definitely feel guilty about keeping reptiles. I didn't feel that way until I got my olive python, who is easily the most inquisitive, active, and intelligent snake I've ever seen. I began to realize that this animal (and probably this entire species) does not belong in captivity. It made me realize there are likely many, many other species who need more space and enrichment than we can reasonably provide in a captive setting, which will lead to boredom and depression in the animal. Then there's the fact that many reptiles depend on rodents as feeders, which means there is now a whole industry that breeds these smart and social creatures in largely subpar conditions just to feed our pets. On the other hand, I'm likely giving my olive python a better life than she would of had if someone else bought her. She has her own room with plenty of enrichment and I take her outside for 30-60 min a day, weather permitting. However, I'll never buy from another breeder. I'll only adopt reptiles going forward. I just adopted a tegu from a rescue, and even though this is another intelligent and active species, I feel better keeping her knowing that I'm not contributing to the breeding of these animals for the pet trade.
@@princevermilion8799 maybe, maybe not. Yes, she's free from predators and parasites, but she lacks autonomy. If I had the choice between a jail cell where I was safe and well-fed versus freedom I would choose freedom everytime. But I'm not a snake. I don't know what goes on in her head. All I see is her trying to get out and explore as much as she can. She still glass surfs the window in her room despite having a ton of space.
@@ronaldkichurchak3833 gaol and freedom for you are massively different than they are for a wild animal. I would rather live in a prison with guaranteed safety and food than be dropped in the African savannah with nothing where starvation, parasites and predation are a constant concern.
@@princevermilion8799 I would choose the Savanah. But our desires are irrelevant. Neither of us know what a reptile wants. My guess, though, is that my python has little understanding of the dangers of the wild, but she does know she wants to explore places that are just out of reach.
Guilt implies that you are doing something wrong, and you know that you should be doing better, but you aren't. That is very different from feeling the weight of responsibility, which is a much healthier attitude towards husbandry.
Love hearing someone rhink the same way I do. I have been criticized for my as they said " stressing my pets." But I have found that it is a type of natural enrichment. I see the difference in the animals behaviors. And I feel that it is my responsibility to let them do and be their best. It has been proven in all my many years that those stressors have benefits.
Phil is very astute, that was an enjoyable episode. Love the comment about the incidents of reptiles in huge cages not breeding. I have seen that too with certain snakes.
The same synonimity (if thats even a word) should apply to husbandry, diet, and enrichment. They shouldn't be view as separate entities. Its "interesting" how separation of these aspects impact how captive care is generally applied. These should all form part of the animals daily care regime at a species-specific level. Give the animal opportunities to live its best life. Also, we shouldn't underestimate the power of language.
Phil, you probably know that you would have a huge positive impact on people by offering them "internship/mentorship" opportunities. It doesn't matter in what capacity either. Many passionate, up-and-coming young herpetoculturists wouldn’t care if it was just 6 months of poop-duty. The sooner you get it rolling, the better for the community.
Never had animals known cages before I turned 30 & I still think it's wrong to do so even though i got alot of reptiles & inverts. I Never changed my mind about animals in cage's it will always be wrong. 💙🤘😗🤙
I would disagree with him on one point though, that early humans “stole” wolf pups. I’m sure it did happen but I’m actually more inclined towards the idea that humans befriended them and they accepted early man in a voluntary way. You can befriended any animal, our ancient ancestors had nothing but time to sit and talk with the animals.
My lizards deserved a wild life until I saw many videos where lizards are killed for oil or hated and killed because they are “ invasive” or poached for their skin, etc. Yes reptiles have natural predators but humans are the worst predators out there. So I guess some humans should be there to make up to reptiles what wrong other humans do to them. Reptiles matter too and its my desire to show them care and love. But will I always feel guilty, yes.
Reminds me of the story about the kid walking down the beach after a storm and there were thousands of starfish washed up on the shore. She was picking them up and bringing them back down to the rock pools and a man walks past and scoffs, "you're not making any difference!" to which she replied, "well I have for this one".
*Do you feel guilty about keeping reptiles? Do you feel proud to be a reptile keeper? or somewhere in between?*
Honestly, the longer I have my snakes (8 years now), the more guilty I feel. Their life seems so meaningless, living in a box 24/7. At the same time, I'm still obsessed with them and I enjoy watching them every day and sometimes I'm even playing with the idea of getting another one (which I won't do).
Also, I've travelled a few times to SE Asia to go herping and when I'm there, seeing these snakes in the wild, it feels really weird that I have them in a box over in Europe.
I just don't believe in it anymore and I've shifted towards herping more instead of keeping, which is way more satisfying. I used to be proud that I kept snakes but now I don't tell anyone anymore. So yeah, I feel very conflicted because snakes (pythons) are still my biggest passion in life.
@@JBVG1978 I really appreciate your honesty and saying these thoughts out loud. I'm also on the same boat with you. I've had my snakes for 11 years now and during the recent years I've started to feel bad for them. The relationship I have with my snakes feels mostly one-sided. I love them, but they will at best just tolerate me in return (the species I have don't live in social groups). I've upgraded their enclosures many times, but it's not never going to be as spacey or stimulating as in the wild - not even close. I feel like I've gotten much more out of them being in my life, than they have gotten from me.
As an act of love for snakes/reptiles, I'm also leaning towards herping rather than keeping. I also don't really talk about my snakes anymore to people, since I don't want to encourage people to start keeping reptiles. The more I know about the pet industry in general and how rampant animal neglect/ab*se is in the animal keeping scene, the more I've been moving away from it. The last snake I took in was a rescue that I adopted. I can't imagine taking in any animals anymore other than rescues.
The only thing I keep is a beardie, so no I don't feel guilty. Obviously even "beginner pets" still deserve as much enrichment in their lives as possible. I feel infinitely more guilty about all the poor reptiles who suffer and die in the wild, alone and afraid.
I don’t feel guilty because most false chameleons are coming from “farms” and I take wonderful care and also breeding them so that others can have healthy babies.
I would say that the tiny geckos I keep and breed in my shed are critically threatened in the wild and actually need hobbyists and breeders to keep the species from going extinct...so I feel proud to be part of the devotees keeping and breeding these specific geckos. Bioactive, fully planted and scaped habitats with all perches and hiding spots they could ever want and need, I give them the best light quality that I can afford, feed them a diverse diet of live and prepared food and hand spray their enclosures twice a day. I monitor their health...and have noticed I need to tone down the portion sizes a notch. No guilt here. Having said that...I do wish they could be released in large numbers back in the wild to thrive in their native habitat, but that is not possible.
You should always feel guilty about keeping pets because you are responsible for them. Not only for the care but their mental well-being as well, and you can always do more. My reptiles are pets and family just as my dogs are. I'm always trying to provide them more enrichment and more experiences the best way that I can. I think with reptiles, it's just harder to have faith in your care because you don't have that immediate feedback that's present with say a dog...and although I'm convinced there is some level of bond with reptiles, it's nothing like the love you can share with a dog.
I think everyone in the reptile keeping space feels guilt to some degree...I also think that's precisely the reason people go after each other so much on their differences in care. It's projection... they all feel that same guilt and some people deal with that guilt by going after others for the specific areas where they know their care is superior just to feel better about whatever it is making themselves feel guilty. That energy is always best served, going back into your own animals. I know there is abuse out there as well and I'm not diminishing that or saying it shouldn't be called out, but someone adding 2 more sq feet to an enclosure to match your idea of the "minimum enclosure size required" isn't you confronting abuse...it's just you avoiding your own guilt.
Very well said.
Never thought I would find such a nuanced and sophisticated conversation on keeping reptiles. Even though I am not big in the hobby, I am eager to listen to more, great guest!
Glad you enjoyed it, thank you for watching!
Dillon, Phil…thanks for a very thought-provoking episode!
After decades of keeping, the reward and fulfilment of producing/preserving some critically endangered species and sharing the knowledge I’ve acquired offsets the guilt.
Glad you enjoyed this one, thanks for watching! Yes, that is an incredibly powerful way to offset the guilt
There is a sect of Hindu where breast feeding baby deer is part of their practice. That might be what Phil was thinking of. Fantastic episode, gentlemen. Phil is always a great guest. There is so much that can be said about this issue I could talk all day....LOL. Maybe one useful thing I could add has to do with how we treat other keepers regarding the specific issue of money. Time and again I see people post a question about how they can do something or provide something for their reptile cheaply or on a budget. And immediately they get flamed with..."If you can't afford whatever it is then you shouldn't have a pet". How is that possibly helping this person or their animal? You don't know anything about their situation or how they manage their finances. HELP them. Be creative. But be honest. Of course your bearded dragon really does need UVB. Helping them figure out creative ways to provide decor, hides, enrichment might allow them to afford a good UVB fixture. Anyway..thanks again for a great video!
Well, said Lorraine! Thank you for watching, glad you enjoyed this one
Growing up,I mostly had birds and sometimes had those feelings,finally realizing that this is all the birds knew and would not be pining for the great outdoors...I seldom feel guilty about keeping any pet in captivity now.
Yes, that’s a very interesting point!
No, what they know is their natural instincts, which tell them they should be flying freely.
I definitely feel guilty about keeping reptiles. I didn't feel that way until I got my olive python, who is easily the most inquisitive, active, and intelligent snake I've ever seen. I began to realize that this animal (and probably this entire species) does not belong in captivity. It made me realize there are likely many, many other species who need more space and enrichment than we can reasonably provide in a captive setting, which will lead to boredom and depression in the animal. Then there's the fact that many reptiles depend on rodents as feeders, which means there is now a whole industry that breeds these smart and social creatures in largely subpar conditions just to feed our pets. On the other hand, I'm likely giving my olive python a better life than she would of had if someone else bought her. She has her own room with plenty of enrichment and I take her outside for 30-60 min a day, weather permitting. However, I'll never buy from another breeder. I'll only adopt reptiles going forward. I just adopted a tegu from a rescue, and even though this is another intelligent and active species, I feel better keeping her knowing that I'm not contributing to the breeding of these animals for the pet trade.
She also has a better life than any wild olive python
@@princevermilion8799 maybe, maybe not. Yes, she's free from predators and parasites, but she lacks autonomy. If I had the choice between a jail cell where I was safe and well-fed versus freedom I would choose freedom everytime. But I'm not a snake. I don't know what goes on in her head. All I see is her trying to get out and explore as much as she can. She still glass surfs the window in her room despite having a ton of space.
@@ronaldkichurchak3833 gaol and freedom for you are massively different than they are for a wild animal. I would rather live in a prison with guaranteed safety and food than be dropped in the African savannah with nothing where starvation, parasites and predation are a constant concern.
@@princevermilion8799 I would choose the Savanah. But our desires are irrelevant. Neither of us know what a reptile wants. My guess, though, is that my python has little understanding of the dangers of the wild, but she does know she wants to explore places that are just out of reach.
@@ronaldkichurchak3833 I'm sure you would, and then you'd never be heard of again or seen again.
Guilt implies that you are doing something wrong, and you know that you should be doing better, but you aren't. That is very different from feeling the weight of responsibility, which is a much healthier attitude towards husbandry.
Great point
Yep!
Love hearing someone rhink the same way I do. I have been criticized for my as they said
" stressing my pets."
But I have found that it is a type of natural enrichment. I see the difference in the animals behaviors. And I feel that it is my responsibility to let them do and be their best.
It has been proven in all my many years that those stressors have benefits.
Phil is a class act. Great conversation
Phil is very astute, that was an enjoyable episode.
Love the comment about the incidents of reptiles in huge cages not breeding. I have seen that too with certain snakes.
Thank you for watching!
The same synonimity (if thats even a word) should apply to husbandry, diet, and enrichment. They shouldn't be view as separate entities. Its "interesting" how separation of these aspects impact how captive care is generally applied. These should all form part of the animals daily care regime at a species-specific level. Give the animal opportunities to live its best life.
Also, we shouldn't underestimate the power of language.
Very well said!
I just got the new ARCADIA LUMINIZE uvb I never been so excited for a uvb lol
Amazing!! Enjoy!
Phil, you probably know that you would have a huge positive impact on people by offering them "internship/mentorship" opportunities. It doesn't matter in what capacity either. Many passionate, up-and-coming young herpetoculturists wouldn’t care if it was just 6 months of poop-duty. The sooner you get it rolling, the better for the community.
Another really good one, great topic
Thanks for watching Nicholas!
I wish Phil (and others) would work with native desert iguanas. They seem like they would be great pets.
No kidding, that is an amazing species!
Well Done ,,,,,, I have enjoyed
Thank you!!
Never had animals known cages before I turned 30 & I still think it's wrong to do so even though i got alot of reptiles & inverts. I Never changed my mind about animals in cage's it will always be wrong. 💙🤘😗🤙
I would disagree with him on one point though, that early humans “stole” wolf pups. I’m sure it did happen but I’m actually more inclined towards the idea that humans befriended them and they accepted early man in a voluntary way. You can befriended any animal, our ancient ancestors had nothing but time to sit and talk with the animals.
My lizards deserved a wild life until I saw many videos where lizards are killed for oil or hated and killed because they are “ invasive” or poached for their skin, etc. Yes reptiles have natural predators but humans are the worst predators out there. So I guess some humans should be there to make up to reptiles what wrong other humans do to them. Reptiles matter too and its my desire to show them care and love. But will I always feel guilty, yes.
Well said, thanks for watching the episode!
Reminds me of the story about the kid walking down the beach after a storm and there were thousands of starfish washed up on the shore. She was picking them up and bringing them back down to the rock pools and a man walks past and scoffs, "you're not making any difference!" to which she replied, "well I have for this one".
I have missed Phil
PH should be back soon as well!
I really like the way this guy thinks. Id probably vote for him for president
Glad you enjoyed the episode, thanks for watching!