They are both flawed, they both have great elements. Can't pick just one. It's a good thing we have both, it would be even better if we had one version with the good parts and fewer flaws.
@19:00 I worked with John on CHEERS and asked him about that. (He's also in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK) He told me that it was because the union require that the film have a certain amount of American actors, and he was an American ex-patriot living in England at the time, so he got a lot of work on American productions.
Okay, wow cool! Thanks so much for that. Yeah I was kicking myself during the edit that we didn't mention John's appearance in EMPIRE because we highlight two other Star Wars actors (Angus McInnes and Richard LeParmentier). What a trip to see you in the comments, btw -- great fan of your work, I just watched "Ackbar's Eleven" late last night and love it -- BRILLIANT editing work on that piece, monsieur! CHEERS 👊
The TV version had a lot of extras too that are hard to find. In the small town Zod is taking over, the little kid gets on a horse and goes for help. Non throws a police light from a car at him and he blows up. A townsperson says, “but he was just a boy.” And Ursa says, “who will never become a man.” Cold!
I wish Donner would have kept some more of the small town scenes, especially the (incredibly dark) kid on the horse scene and Ursa’s reaction, the reversing of time in the Donner Cut would also show the ‘resurrected’ kid, adding a bit to the good ending.
@@raystantz2471 That would make sense, although, I'm glad that sequence made it in. It has real gravitas and now I've got it in HD, so I can seamlessly add it to my fan cut of S2.
@@heartofalegend Yeah there's a really long write up by The Caped Wonder who discussed the extra scenes added and the fact that this digital version can't be bought anymore, and the fact that whoever added them did it without Donner's approval, because he's passed away, and also that they don't know why they were added.
The story how Ratzenberger got his Cheers job is amazing. He was auditioning for another character and was bombing and as he was leaving. He turned around and said do you have a know it all patron character? They said no and he litterally created the character Cliff Clavin right there at the casting call.
One piece of dialogue you didn't mention is the icing on top of the cake when Clark enters the diner at the end. He see's the bully and says 'gee, that's funny, I've never seen garbage eat garbage before'. It's funny and corny all at once and completely fits the tone of his one liners.
@henrywallacesghost5883 He certainly could have if he was actually prepared to defend himself as a non-powered human being, but he wasn't. He also clearly wasn't thinking straight in the moment. He had no reflexes to block the guy, he just stands there and takes a punch to the gut thinking he could take it, because with powers he never had to worry about that, and he was completely overwhelmed by the pain. Imagine being reduced to maybe 1% of your normal strength, resilience and stamina. He had no idea what pain was until that moment.
That is correct and like I said Pepper Martin was big, 6'2 224 as billed in the ring, when he stand up to Clark at the end you can see he's almost the same height bout an inch and a half shorter.
One of the reason the Lester cut didn't include more Donner footage (even though it would've worked fine, story-wise) is that according to DGA rules, Lester had to have the dominant percentage of footage in the final version to gain single directorial authorship.
In Donner's version when Superman turns back time why would Clark even mention that the bully was sitting in his favorite chair? the bully wouldn't even remember him from before.
@raulzavala9061 I only meant in the theatrical, since I think the guys were calling Clark petty for going after the guy in that version. It could potentially make sense that Clark would want to set the guy straight in the Donner Cut, but it makes no sense that he doesn't say why, and there's no reason to announce that he'd been lifting weights since nobody ever saw him before.
@@raulzavala9061 Yes....but only Clark knows the reference. Since the bully doesn't acknowledge that comment, the bully doesn't care at all and just wants to fight Clark.
Alright so thanks to you guys I finally got around to watching the Donner Cut. I definitely have some thoughts. While some of the Lester Schtick is silly, I missed some of the silliness... Not all of it. but some of it. I didn't like that they eliminated the scene where the Kryptonians first arrive on planet houston and wreak havoc, but rather just cut to the little town burning and going crazy. Stuff I really liked was that we finally learn why superman was able to get his powers back. It always bugged me in the original version that he just grabs the green crystal and next scene he has his powers back. That said, I did NOT like the turn back time ending. My issue is, it seems to me that in the hierarchy of Jorel rules superman might break, messing with human history ranks a little higher than having a human girlfriend. So if he's so willing to TWICE turn back time and mess with history, why then is he unwilling to say "screw you dad, I'm gonna be with lois and keep my powers". Now, perhaps if he went the spiderman route of saying he doesn't want to put Lois in danger since he'll always have enemies, maybe. Another thing that hit me, somehow more in this version, was that I didn't buy that Superman would let go of his powers to be with lois and not even consider the possibility that, maybe, one of the reasons she's so hot for him is because of his powers. I mean, she's this gorgeous "career gal" that won't look twice at Clark, but falls head over heals for Superman. Maybe, just maybe, him flying her around the night sky in superman 1 had something to do with that. Now, no more powers, it would never occur to him that she might find him a lot less appealing?
Cool, glad you finally saw it! Yeah, I think I agree with everything you're saying. I have many problems with the whole giving-up-his-powers thing, but I do like the high stakes situation it puts him in, so I'm kind of torn. The time reversing ending of the Donner Cut is definitely problematic, but I choose to look past it because in reality, there isn't an ending for the Donner Cut, as he was never able to finish the movie. Turning back time was the original ending for II, but once they halted production on II and moved the time reversal moment to the first movie, they were planning to write and shoot a totally new ending for II. Lester's answer was the magic kiss (probably concocted by screenwriter David Newman), but we'll never really know what Donner and Mankiewicz would have done. I think of it like a lost Beatles album or something like that... we can piece together what it might have been, but ultimately it's just fragments of a great movie that was never finished.
I loved the scene when the villains enter the diner and the guy says "The Circus is in town" and Ursa arm wrestles the guy and destroys him and the table.
Let's Just Hold Hands. Let me know if this tickles. SMASH! I think my arms broken. Girl or no girl, your gonna spit teeth, Get Up! And Zod with just his fingers sends that big dude flying, crashing thru the wall, thru the chicken fence and outside infront of Sherriff Floor Walker! Is that you Boog?
The Donner cut doesn't have John Williams score over the fluttering news papers when Superman returns which was a goose bump moment for me as kid. I also prefer "step outside" to "freedom of the press" because it feels more like Superman means business. Overall the Donner cut doesn't work for me and that's probably due to watching the original so much in the early 80s.
I actually like “Freedom of the Press” more in that he’s not making it about him. In the Donner Cut he prioritizes Lois, Jimmy, and Perry’s lives over him reasserting his mojo…
Another change in the Donner cut is in the before the opening credits, where they show the original ending for Superman: The Movie. Superman tosses one of the missiles into space, which destroys the phantom zone containing Zod, Ursa, and Non, allowing them to escape. In the theatrical Lester Cut, it's the hydrogen bomb in the Eiffel Tower elevator that is thrown into space.
I like Luthor so much better in Superman 2 compared to the first film. He's really funny, clever and wasn't constricted by a generic rich guy villain plot. He got to show more personality and entertainment value making deals with the more physically powerful Kryptonians.
@@williamavitt8264Yeah, Hackman and Kidder were both very upset when Donner was fired. Unlike Kidder, Hackman was already a established star and gave two shi*s who he offended.
The Donner Cut was interesting, but I think Lester’s version was better. The only thing I wished Lester would have put in was Clark regaining his powers at the Fortress. Superman returning to Metropolis miraculously having his powers back even as a kid left me scratching my head.
I think Lester's version works the best as we see Clark all helpless and all of a sudden he sees the glowing crystal and the music swelling indicating his powers are coming back.
Oh man! Thrilled you found us, I LOVE the first series and can’t to read the latest! We have another clip where you see me flipping out when I learn that “Metal Curtain” exists. I hope y’all keep that series running, it’s so brilliant. Cheers 👊
Just found your show and I’m thrilled!! Algorithm pays off sometimes! I’m 53. Saw Superman 1&2 in the theater. Superman 1 is one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time. I watch it every year. It’s SORELY underrated, and as a comic book junkie, it’s still the GREATEST comic book adaptation ever and set the template for every adaptation since. Superman 2 was enjoyable, but even while watching it at 10 years old, I wished I was watching that “new” movie Raiders of the lost Ark. For years, I always felt “ If only Donner got to finish the sequel “. Well, we finally got to see it in the box set a few years back. I enjoyed it despite the limitations and last year saw a double bill of 1 and the Donner cut of 2 on the big screen. The Kryptonian criminals encounter with the astronauts always felt off to me. Lex in jail is outright dumb. Lois jumping out the window is silly but ok. I appreciate the more serious tone. The Brando scenes are MUCH better. I was also disappointed to find out powered Clark beating up the truck driver was a Donner choice. Not very heroic. Lois discovering Clark is Superman is soooo good, even the test footage works. You can see why Kidder was the perfect choice. If I’m watching Superman 2? It’s the Donner cut, flaws and all. I LOVE Richard Lester as well. Head canon tells me Jor El was right. Superman altered time and created his own inferior movie multiverse, where each sequel got worse and worse. So glad to find this channel, but m I’m looking forward to deep diving all the STMP videos!!
When I was a kid getting to watch Superman the movie & Superman 2, when they were released in theaters was awesome! Getting older, you release Lester's version has way too much slapstick in Superman 2. Getting to finally see the Donner Cut, as Donner intended Superman 2 to be. Donner's Cut (for story wise and look) is the superior version. If Warner's can release the Superman 3-hour TV version on DVD, I wish Warner's would do a Special Superman 2 Ultimate Cut, using both of the Lester & Donner versions into one complete movie.
Well you are opening a can of worms now; Warner has left it too late now, as both directors have sadly passed. So hypothetically, who would be authorised to do the editing in their absence? WB would have been better served trying to 4K the 3 hour International cut of Superman 2, which we all saw on TV back in when, 1982?
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Since both Lester & Donner have passed away, it would take a very talented director that would respect the source material and be unbiased to either director and could use CGI tech to blend certain scenes, also using deleted scenes and the 3 hour International cut to create the Ultimite version of Superman 2.
To me, the goofiest scene was Perry White being knocked unconscious when his head was driven through a ceramic ceiling tile that was only 1 mm thick. 😆🤣😂
A “Best Of All Possible Worlds” version of Superman II does exist, and I think it’s available in Europe. It aired as a complete television version of the movie on ABC in the early 80’s. I think “The Richard Donner Cut” maybe could have restored that entire television rendition of the movie, but Donner wanted to exclude as much Lester footage as possible.
I also as a kid thought the Zoners fell down into some sort of Fortress holding cell type thing. Which I guess is a very action figure playset way to view it right? Castle Greyskull had a holding cell for bad guys, I think the Super Powers Collection Hall Of Justice also had one, the GI Joe base etc. I also remember thinking that maybe falling down those shafts maybe led to the Phantom Zone somehow and he’d set that up just like he did the thing with the power chamber.
When the Kryptonian villains were turned human, a 20+ foot fall would have done serious damage to their bodies, especially if they landed on a hard crystal surface, like the chutes.
The Donner films are coming at the Clark/Superman dynamic from a Pre-Crisis standpoint. The now more familiar idea of Clark being who he is started Post-Crisis. I realize those terms are gonna be jibberish to anyone who doesn’t read comics but in a nutshell there was a reboot in 1986 and before that Clark was basically the disguise with Superman/Kal-El being the real person. At the end of day both are extensions of the same person it’s just that Daily Planet Clark is a couple gears down whereas Superman is a high-gear. Think of it like when you’re at work, you’re yourself but an adjusted version of yourself for the sake of being professional or being customer servicey or whatever. Clark adjusts himself to help facilitate that disguise.
In the commentary for Superman The Movie, Donner and Mankiewicz say the plan was originally for part 1 to end with Superman sending the first missile into outer space and it setting the supervillains free from the Phantom Zone, then part II would end with him turning back time. But because 80% of the way through filming the budget had gone insane, the Salkinds said forget about part II, just give us a good part I, so they moved the turning back time ending to part I.
I don't care what everyone says. The theatrical LESTER cut is MUCH better than the Donner cut. For that we already have the masterpiece "Superman The Movie" Superman II is about Paris, Niagara falls and lots of fun.
Lester did a fine job finishing Donner's vision but his comedic sensibilities dominated part 3 and took us away from the realism Donner created. There was almost no action in the Smallville scenes in 1, but are some of the most beautifully shot and acted scenes in the movie. I just love the slow burn where young Clark creates the fortress and spends years learning from his father and Krypton scholars. Then you see Reeve for the first time flying away. I was hooked as a kid from that moment on.
I'll defend Superman's "soft" magic system. We know the hard rules, but his stranger, more loose and even humorous abilities add to the fun. And I think it goes along with a mysterious, Kryptonian set of technology and abilities that we dont quite understand. A Kryptonian trap or weapon would seem strange to us. Same with the capabilities of the Fortress.
Honestly the fact that you haven't seen III and IV might make it extra interesting to do, just to see the contrast between the two. Oddly, IV was the one I had on VHS as a kid and so watched over and over, I only occasionally watched the others as I rented them.
You guys are discussing in depth my absolute favourite movies as a kid. Some friends of the family had taped it off the TV with beta max and paused the adverts out. You know you love something properly when you can keep watching after so many times, know it word for word, and all the emotions you experienced get doubled up. First with your anticipation of the bit you know is coming, and then amplified during the aforementioned bit. Sheesh Christopher Reeves was so perfect for this role and I love Henry Cavill. I've never read a comic book in my life. I was obsessed with Smallville at the time it was airing. Bought the box set seasons and I don't think I've even watched them. The first movie is so fantastic. It's the superhero version of A New Hope
"Superhero version of A New Hope"... you're so right! Star Wars came the year before and those two films have often been tied at number one for me. Lately Superman has taken over the #1 spot. And yes, wow, pausing the commercials out... that was kind of like using the Force, mastering that skill. Often you kinda had to feel the show about come back on. Cheers, thanks for your comments. 👊
The thing to remember about "why did Lester cut that or add that" was his need to get the percentage of his work into it. So yeah, cutting a 2-3 minute scene may seem like a little, but actually it all adds up.
Lester actually only accepted the job because the Salkinds still owed him money for the 3 Musketeers and agreed to pay him for that. Literally a director for hire. None of the problems was his fault.
The Bully in the bar, it doesn't make sense that Superman goes back for revenge in Donner cut, because after turning back time, it never happen, so it has the feel that people could think something like: what's up with this tall guy with glasses that we just met for the first time in our lives, came and gave a beating to that truck driver. At least he paid the damages afterwards.
When I was a kid, I used to think that the stuff in the fortress was set up by Superman as traps for Zod. He knew that Luther had been there and knew he would lead them to it. So, he “retreated” to the fortress and set some traps for them. Of course the whole telekinesis stuff is dumb but I did try to rationalize it. I also like the cellophane S shield trap. It’s Kryptonian tech! 😂😂
Yeah that is one way to look at it! And to be fair, for as goofy as Superman III was, Lester didn't bring back any of those made-up powers in that movie. It's basically just the tried-and-true heat vision, super breath, super hearing and so forth.
Yes that’s true. On a side note, my older brother and I still punch in the air and say: “Ever herd of parachutes?!” To this day. We always thought that was funny and not Hackman.
The original Donner ending was supposed to be the beginning of the Donner cut. The missiles free the villains and the movie ends with the three headed to earth.
I love this movie but my only pet peeve is that he doesn’t move his glasses when using his heat vision, Dean Cain always did. This annoys me even more than the cellophane S disappearing after he throws it. That could have neutralised him completely.
Even though 70 percent of *Superman II* was shot by Richard Donner before his firing, in order for Richard Lester to receive director credit, he had to finish the remaining 30 percent in addition to another 19 percent to achieve filming 51 percent of the movie. Therefore, many of Donner's scenes were reshot and rewritten in addition to dumping Marlon Brando's footage to save money.
It's my understanding that the phantom zone jail Zod was in never made it to the phantom zone due to Krypton's destruction and was pulled along the course of Superman's ship the same as the Kryptonite fragments. my preference is the Donner cut, it's a little more serious and Non feels like much more of a menace and less like odd incompetent goof.
I like both the Lester and Donner versions. 1-There is a clear difference in how they both view how a Superman version should be. 2-Lester probably threw in a couple extra, unneccessary scenes, to get credit as Director of the movie (50%+ of the footage), such as flying past an airplane, while making a loopty loop..or making a souffle at the Fortress of Solitude. 3-I feel like Margot Kidder's appearance changed in a couple of the scenes (likely made by Lester)...compared to Donner sequences..how much change can a person have in appearance, in less than 3 years??
I always thought the one where Lois walked through Superman is actually a hologram which is a well-known technology even then and I happen to like the cellophane S, but I do think it could’ve been designed to look more like energy than a cellophane S.
As a kid, I always wondered,when Supes turns back time,who(or what) does he not save to make up that time to save Lois?.I always pictured him let someone else maybe die to save her?.And if Supes can turn back time,why not go back a little further and stop Lex Luther’s plan before he can hatch it
If no one else has mentioned it, the scene in the Donner Cut where Clark goes back to take revenge on the guy in the diner is not only petty, but he's taking revenge for something that NEVER HAPPENED.
Richard Donner specifically said that the 'Turn Back Time' scene was meant to be in "Superman Ii" because it was the best way for Kal-El to fix what happened when The Phantom Zone was shattered. However, when alexander and ilya salkunt saw the time reversal footage, they insisted that it be used for the first movie! Lois was never supposed to die in "Superman: The Movie"!!!
Yeah, although I've heard different stories about who came up with that idea, moving the ending to the first movie. There was at least one interview I heard where Donner made it sound like it was his idea, but he might have been misremembering how the idea it started. Funny thing is, I think it works so much better in the first movie than how it was originally scripted for II. I think by that point Donner and "Mank" were really on a roll, so the revisions to the first script to fit that in work so, so damn well.
I agree with you guys. A combination of the 2 films would be perfect. Each has elements I like. The theater release scene where Superman challenges Zod has a better line than in Donner's version, but Donner has more things I like in his version.
A lot of people forget that a lot of Richard Lester's Superman 2 footage was filmed by Richard Donner himself so Lester had to film footage to allow him to be credited as the Director.....so for me the Original footage/is Richard Donner's so the Donner Cut is the one to go for.
I have the Superman 2 theatrical release on vhs and recently purchased the the collection of all 4 movies with the Richard Donner cut on dvd. I personally didn't like the Donner cut because of dragged out scenes that was not really necessary to make a great movie. I think you have to maintain a balance in your production with fast paced scenes but also getting your point across not revealing alot which is called imagination.
One other thing I forgot to mention was.... 1.There is film footage that Lester shot that is in Donner's Cut because Donner was sacked/fired and therefore he could not film it at the time. 2.Donner's Cut has two crucial footage that is NOT in Lester's cut and they are ALL the Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando footage .....you will not see ANY footage of both actors in Lester's cut and that is what makes the Donner Cut the best.🙂👍
Yep, we talk about that in the episode. Cheers 👊 Just edited to add THANK YOU! Sorry I've been replying to comments for hours today, I'm getting a little dizzy.
You guys didn't talk about it but John Williams also did not return to score instead he allowed for Ken Thorne to use his musical arrangement which in my opinion actually works well in the movie, yeah sure the orchestra was smaller but everytime I listed to the soundtrack CD it's like I'm playing out the movie in my mind it placed better here than in Superman The Movie, yeah I don't care what John Williams' fans think about.
11:11 When I was in my late teens, my grandmother sent me to rent Superman 1 for my much younger cousin. They had a copy of Superman 2, and he'd watched it a million times, so he wanted to see part 1. I did as they'd asked and sat in the room as the movie began, and both my grandmother and my 5-6yo cousin told me "You got the wrong movie! This is the same movie!" I was quite familiar with these movies, and I assured them that I had not made a mistake. This _WAS_ Superman 1. This was a different movie than the one that he'd been watching. But it took them a good 10 minutes or more to begin to even contemplate that I might be right, and they might be wrong.
Donner Cut without a doubt. I do really like the theatrical as well, but Donner Cut shows a more cohesive story. Only downside of Donner Cut is no "care to step outside". Awesome vid guys.
Many of us did that back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released on DVD. We didn't want to have to choose between both versions, but instead, just wanted to have one movie that contained the best of both versions. My original re-edited, re-scored opening title sequence is still on Rumble, as far as I know, and other fans' original title sequence for their fan cuts is also still available for viewing, as well.
Like the Godfather saga that came out years ago. It is chronologically cut and is awesome. I'm a big Breaking Bad fan and still tell people do not watch Better Call Saul first because it's both a prequel and sequel.
IIRC Lester had to be responsible for at least 50% of the film to be able to put his name on it, hence he needed to reshoot Donner scenes even if he might not have otherwise wanted to.
Yeah I read something along those lines but according to the Hollywood Director's Guild the film needs at least 70% for it to be considered under Lester's name.
If you watch Donner's _Scrooged_ with Bill Murray, there's a subplot in there of rival tv executive named Bryce Cummings [played deliciously by John Glover] that the big boss brings in to "help" Murray's character, and once I really dove in hard on the whole thing between Donner and Salkinds/Spengler, it's _really awesome_ how Donner incorporated the Richard Lester situation that he went through on _Superman_ into _Scrooged_ . . . it's really funny, and there are a couple moments where the Cummings character says, word-for-word, what Lester said to Donner after the Salkinds brought Lester in to "help" out on the first one [Donner felt, correctly, that they'd brought him in to spy on him and eventually replace him]. Anyhooo, I think a great idea for you guys would be to actually do a video where you do a deep dive on that element of _Scrooged_ , and a deep dive on the Donner/Lester thing, because it's really fascinating, and it's also really funny.
@prodigioussaps There's something I like to call "Citizen Kane pixie dust" and it means that any film that has a connection to _Citizen Kane_ can't be all bad. Mank's uncle Joseph wrote the screenplay to Kane, so therefore _Superman_ has Citizen Kane pixie dust. The cool thing is that there's also such a thing as "Superman: The Movie pixie dust" . . . that dust doesn't necessarily mean that a film that has it will be good [sometimes it will] but it'll probably be interesting. I love the moment in Goonies when Sloth rips open his shirt, reveals his Superman shirt, and the theme plays gloriously. Doesn't happen if Donner doesn't direct that film.
After watching this video, I decided to revisit both versions last night... specifically paying attention to the excessive use of ADR. Besides Luthor's heavy ADR, it seems like Ursa's voice was much higher pitched in many of the Donner shots. Lester may have had her use a deeper (more menacing) voice.
Good catch! Wouldn’t surprise me… he definitely did that with Zod as well. You can totally hear the difference in his voice in the Donner footage. Either it’s ADR or some kind of studio trickery to down pitch their voices slightly. Someone here in the comments knows, I’m sure.
OMG SUPERMAN III would have been awesome if Lex Luthor and Lois Lane had gotten super powers from the Kryptonian rays that took away the powers of the villains in Superman II. And Superman and Lois had to defeat Lex in Superman III. That would have been much better than what we got with Richard Pryor in the actual movie.
Margot was absolutely Amazing in Superman 78. Sadly, she was clearly going through a great deal personally during the period of shooting the Lester footage, she looked nothing like herself, besides the terrible wig she was wearing, poor lighting and makeup. The weight loss in her pretty face was striking when watching the movie with adult eyes and shifting between the Donner and Lester footage. I would go as far as to say that she would have likely never been cast by Donner if she had tested appearing as she did in S #2. It’s strange because she looked herself for her role during amityville horror in 79. In the end, the truth is that we will never know what Donner and Mank would have invented for S#2 if had been given the time and opportunity to elevate the material. Case in point both versions that were shot for Luther’s escape from prison for #2. Having had missed the summer release in 78, they were racing wildly during most of 78 to make the Christmas release. Only Chris could have possibly saved the post for Donner on S#2, had he put his foot down, but it just didn’t work out that way. The baby got thrown out with the bath water.
I remember noticing the difference in Margot's appearence when I watched this movie at about ten years old. I couldnt really figure out why she looked so different between scenes til I learned the whole story about how the movie(s) were made.
Kidder was great for sure, BUT... if we could turn back time [maybe some pun intended lol...) then Anne Archer would have been a more classy choice for Lois Lane
Here's my take on it, I was 5 when I first saw the theatrical cut and I loved every minute of it as a kid I didn't pick up on things like the cellophane \S/ and the blatant product placement, why did I care I was only 5 years old. Now as an adult I can appreciate Donner's cut as an unfinished "lost" film and it's great to finally see more new scenes of Brando but IMO I will always go with the theatrical cut to this day it is the best superhero sequel thus far and the Metropolis battle isn't over the top as Zack Snyder's ridiculous Playstation version of it in Man Of Steel.
Well said. I always like Lester's version but I have to say I've come away with a new appreciation for what he accomplished after digging into all this so deeply for these videos. I just wish Lester had pushed for a better script in Superman III. More on that coming soon...
How does he cook anything in the fortress of solitude, do we not see the kitchen in the back with plates and cutlery and glasses and buckets for champagne or is all that in one brown bag?
You guys ever notice how _completely different_ Margot Kidder looks in the Lester footage as opposed to what Donner shot? When I saw the film when it first was in theaters, I didn't know about all the behind-the-scenes stuff, but I noticed how different Kidder looked. It's odd, but she looks noticeably worse in the Lester footage.
@@prodigioussaps Yeah, skinnier definitely. Buy her hairstyle just doesn't look the same at all, and her lips really look different. It's odd, as if when they reconvened to film Lester's stuff in 1979 and 80, they cut corners even on hair and makeup. The Metropolis and Fortress sequences at the end, which cuts back and forth quite often between Donner/Lester, is really strange. I felt it subconsciously when it was in theaters, but as I've gotten older, it's a kind of schizophrenic experience, one I've never really seen to that extent in any other film.
@@prodigioussaps There are rumors that Margot started going a little overboard with certain substances in '79. I'm with you on her performance, though: her actual work in II is wonderful. She never phones it in, and her chemistry with Reeve is fantastic. I dunno, man . . . for me, Donner's work [which means Mank, Reeve, Hackman, Brando, Kidder, Unsworth] on Superman, and not just John Williams but John Williams _and_ the LSO . . . that troupe of people constitute the _absolute definition_ of Superman. It's impossible for me to seriously consider any other film iterations of that character, and it all boils down to how Donner decided, once he was on board, that they were gonna give that character the respect he deserved.
You’re absolutely right man. Firing Donner was like breaking up the Beatles, but like in 1964 or something, right as they were getting off the ground. The world was robbed.
Superman II : the Donner cut It’s the only one I can watch without cringing. Because Superman the movie and Superman II were supposed to be one saga Mario Puzo. You had people at the top of their game working on the first film and the second would have been a beautiful ending. Thank God, we were able to see it in theform it is currently in at least. There is no iteration of Superman that has been done since the first film that has not taken from it because it was so forward thinking and visionary. Shot together, written as one piece…. They blend perfectly together as masterpieces. I applaud the effort to make the Donner cut a reality. To remove him from the film, from Superman II and completing his vision in 1979 was disgraceful. but even worse, was to replace him with Richard Lester, who was following him around set during the shooting of Superman the movie. It’s such an ugly business. Hollywood is an ugly place. No loyalty.
Superman II is always gonna be a "Frankenstein" type film because of how Margot Kidder looks between either cut. She's physically different in the Lester footage than she is in the Donner footage.
One interesting difference I saw between the 2 versions was how Superman dealt with Non in the fight scene over Metropolis. In Lester's version he comically kicks him, while in the Donner footage, after Ursa says she doubts he'd hit her because she is a woman, Superman turns right around and hits Non with a clenched fist, just what one would expect the Man of Steel to do.
That line by Ursa is from the extended ABC broadcast airing of S2 directed by Lester, the Metropolis fight in the theatrical is still the best whereas the fight in the Donner version is clearly hobbled together using whatever footage was at hand and looks clunky and unfinished.
Yeah that could definitely explain some of those things, Kryptonian tech, etc. But even then we’re left with weird stuff like the levitating finger laser thing that the villains do.
@@prodigioussaps Truw there is a lot of Nonsenes happening, its just my way of thinking of the strange crap that's going on lol.. anyway great video guys
Overall I prefer the Lester version, the Donner cut just seems like a vanity project, but does have some good additional footage/alternate takes. I edited the two versions together to form my own Ultimate Cut which is now the version I watch.
There's something you didn't notice about the endings of both Theatrical and the Donnor Cut in regard to the Truck Driver. Yes, the Mighty Superman is getting petty Revenge on this Bully, however one of these endings should not have happened at all and Superman looks even worse when you realize it. In the Donnor Cut, Superman altered history which undid ALL the damage Zod & Co. had done and Lois's memories, essentially the events of the film. Which means what happened the Diner never happened. Clark is bullying a guy who ultimately did nothing to him. Another thing to consider, with history being altered is the Jor-El A.i. still alive and the Fortress not destroyed? This is why Time Travel solutions can be frustrating when proper thought isn't put into them.
Oh we mentioned that discrepancy with the truck driver briefly towards the beginning of the video. But yeah, we didn't go into detail about it. That's one of several really weird problems with Mankiewicz's original script for Superman II... I love Mankiewicz, he was brilliant screenwriter and had a lot to do with what makes those first two movies so good, but he wasn't very good at writing science fiction. The time travel thing works a hell of a lot better when they moved it to the first movie, IMO... and if Donner and Mank had been able to finish shooting II back in the day, the time travel thing wouldn't have happened again. I like to think they would have come up with something a lot better... but we'll never know what it could have been.
Richard Donner Directed 100% of Superman the Movie and also Directed 80% of Superman 2 so Donner only needed to complete 20% more before he was sacked.....Then Lester comes along and has to take out 40-45% of Donner's footage and then film his footage to be credited as Director of Superman2.
I would tell people that like or love Christopher Reeve too watch Somewhere in Time. This man was a solid actor and deserves to be known as more than Superman(which is awesome on its own).
I think it’s just a joke, at most a reference to plain old hide-and-seek. But I think he was playfully messing with Lois, because at this point he was basically just toying with Zod, waiting for the right moment to pull his reverse molecule chamber trick.
love your guys videos, BUT i got to point out what i consider the biggest plot failure. why would Lois want to be with "Clark" after he gives up his powers??? sorry to make her out to be shallow, but the only reason Lois ever fell in love with "Superman" is because he is THE ultimate ALPHA male? they first met as part of him rescuing her. so come on, as soon as she heard him bargaining away his powers i think she would have been saying: "wait wait wait, ugh, lets talk about this". or maybe after clark gets his butt kicked, lois says: "ya know, i have been thinking about doing this story on a playboy billionaire from Gotham, i think i will be on assignment for a couple weeks - see ya"
Haaaa yeah that is a great point. They do kind of hint at it a little bit in that overdubbed dialog as they’re driving to the diner afterwards, Clark’s awkward “Hey you’re awfully quiet over there…” I don’t know if it’s a plot failure really, because the point seems to be the whole thing was a huge mistake to begin with, and the dire consequences start playing out almost immediately, with him totally unprepared to defend her without his powers, and then of course the Zod drop. But yeah it would have been good to have Lois vocally expressing doubt about it right before he steps in the chamber. And thanks!! 👊
@@prodigioussaps In "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut", when Kal steps into the chamber to remove his powers, Marlon-El looks at Lois with actual anger!
I like the Richard Donner cut. However, there are things I preferred about the Richard Lester version. Some of the romantic moments with Sup and Lois were a bit choppy and could have lasted several seconds longer in the Donner cut. Some of the alternate takes in the original Superman 2 were better.
Lester needed to shoot more than half the film with his own style as Donner refused to share credit with him. That's why Lester has to reshoot scenes differently. The ending where we see the Kryptonians alive wasn't in the Donner Cut & was in the deleted footage section. As a kid I always felt Superman killed them because as you guys mention, they are vulnerable humans now & the fortress is built on top of the freezing Arctic waters. Even if the falls don't kill them, the hyperthermia will. It's also quite interesting how people will justify torture sinply because it's not death, even though they are being tortured. Superman in the comics for the most part wouldn't torture them by breaking their human hand & throwing them across the room. Superman also has killed in the comics (he's killed Zod the most) too but again rarely. To be fair though since he turns back time, their deaths & the entire film becomes pointless as it never happened. Funny enough the powers we see have shown up in the comics, I think the cellophane S was new, but the super kiss & beams in the Silver Age. Keep in mind that in the Silver Age, tiny versions of Superman would come out of his hands, so it got nuts. We do see what the Phantom Zone looks like in Supergirl (1984) The Donner Cut version of the identity reveal is a cool moment, however you have the added issue that somehow Superman can't feel a bullet hit him but he could feel a crowbar hit him. It doesn't make sense. In that case, while the Donner Cut version is cooler, the Lester Cut makes more sense. But in reality both are stupid because Lois is a well known writer & should've just been able to figure it out without circumstances like those. The Paris scene I always felt like it was movie time. Basically while Lois is doing what we see her doing, that's happening at the same time as Clark discovering that Lois is there & changing into Superman. So while it is building tension, as soon as Superman leaves Lois is already under the elevator & he gets there in time. Also Paris & Metropolis being in the same time zone sticks out like a sore thumb. Lois jumping out of the window is just stupidly on her part. The Clark persona we see in the Reeve films was unique, it's not a comic book trait. It was something Christopher Reeve created to add to why people are fooled by the glasses. I think it's a poor choice, not that he's terrible but Clark bumbling around sticks out like a sore thumb. Clark as in the comics doesn't stick out. He's very much just another person. Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Henry Cavill, Tom Welling, Dean Cain all played Clark without the clumsiness & I felt were all better because of it. Even Tyler Hoechlin, who originally played Superman & Clark like Christopher Reeve changed his portrayal when he got his own show & is great. The Donner Cut version of losing his powers is a better scene, as you stated it has nothing to do with sex. It's a rebellious moment for him because Jor El is telling him he can't have a relationship because he's meant for greater things. It's a moment where he goes against his father's wishes for his own needs. Which is diluted a bit because we already seen him do that in Superman: The Movie when he makes the choice to reverse time to save Lois. With the Lester version he's basically just horny. Again this is a story point I don't like in either version but I do think Donner handled it better. Smallville also used the idea that Clark gives up his powers to be with Lois and have kids on the Crisis on Infinite Earths saga on CW. Since the Donner years we've seen Lois and Clark have children with Clark having powers. In fact even during this time Clark and Lois have had a child already in the comics Clark Kent Jr, so not sure why this was even a plot point. Terrence Stanp is amazing, he's even great as the voice of Jor El in Smallville. I do prefer Michael Shannon in Man of Steel, simply because he has a more emotional journey through the film. Like Thanos or Magneto, you understand his mindset but he's just the villain so you have to be against him. There was a Donner Cut scene that surprisingly didn't make it into the film & that's the child who's killed by Non. Now why didn't Lois drive Clark back to the fortress? She just went back while he was freezing on foot? There's no reason for Lex Luthor to know that Superman & Lois are a couple or have feelings. The only thing he knows is Lois interviewed Superman initially. The fight is great, it's a funny fact if you watch this fight & the fight in Man of Steel, Superman causes more destruction here than in MOS. Most of the destruction in MOS was caused by the World Engine & when Superman is fighting Zod he's trying to stay alive. He's literally never fought anyone before & just got his full powers whereas in Superman 2 he's been with his full powers for a while. I do suggest that you watch both fights back to back & you'll see Superman causes more destruction in Superman 2 than he does in MOS. I'm also not someone who even has a problem in either film because I am a fan of both & the eras in comics they are pulling from (mainly Golden Age, Post Crisis & New 52). Superman can't just lead Zod away in MOS as Zod made it clear he'll kill the humans because Superman chose Earth over his own kind. In Superman 2, Zod would've followed because he doesn't really care about the human beings until he notices that Superman cares AND when Superman does leave, they go back to threaten them, they don't even consider following Superman until Lex tells them he knows where they are, so essentially Superman leaves them to possibly be killed. Think about it. Zod tells them Superman fled & next time they seem him they'll kill him. Superman saved the whole planet in MOS. And we did see him save people throughout the film, so not sure why so many fixate on just the fight at the end where he has little control over anything and is mostly on the defense. Now Superman crushing Zods hand, I have no issue with but with all the "Superman is supposed to be perfect" crowd, it really makes me question why no one complains about him crushing his hand & throwing him to the wall? And in the Donner Cut Clark goes back to the diner to beat up the driver who now doesn't know him. Again, superheroes (only DC, Marvel can do anything) can't kill but they can torture. Superman 2 The Donner Cut isn't as mind blowing as Zack Snyder's Justice League, but that's only because Donner couldn't finish it while Snyder did, but it is ultimately a better cut of the film tonally, even with their being a toilet in the fortress. In the comics Superman went to another Earth, de powered Zod, Faora & a 3rd Kryptonian so they became human & than killed them because they threatened to find a way to his Earth & destroy it like they did theirs. Superman may 9 out of 10 times find another way, but there's always that once that he'll do something he normally doesn't do. Great video guys, while I may disagree in areas it was great to watch. MY SUPERMAN RANKINGS (The 1st 2 are equally great giving us a true to life Superman of the time) Man of Steel Superman: The Movie BVS: Ultimate Edition Superman 2 (both cuts) ZSJL Superman 3 Superman Returns Superman 4
Cheers man, thanks so much for your thoughts. 👊 You clearly have spent a lot more time watching MoS than I have, so I'm not going to argue with you. That film is just not my jam, as the kids say. But again, thanks for commenting.
@prodigioussaps fair enough Superman has always been my favorite of the Trinity, so I do get passionate about the films. Sorry for the long post, I commented as I watched.
Great recap, but I think you missed the point with the diner scene. When Clark goes back to punish the dinner bully after regaining his powers, he didn't do it because he had been personally humiliated. He did it because the trucker had bulled a person -the fact that the person was himself is irrelevant. Imagine if the Clark had gone to the diner when he didn't have powers and he saw the trucker bullying some other guy and Clark knew he was powerless to stop him. Do you really think he wouldn't have avenged that person once he got his powers back?
y'all got to watch and review Superman III and IV. I will give Superman IV this credit for creating a villain that's not part of Superman's rogue gallery. I thought the costume and Nuclear man's theme music sounded so good. I have all of the Superman movies and would watch Superman III and 4 but not all the time. I love the theatrical cut of Superman 2 and like some stuff in Donner's Superman 2. I wish he had just worked on the first movie, finish it and then working on Superman 2.
Cool, yeah we definitely will. Should be interesting at least! I haven't seen 4 since it came out. Watched III dozens of time on cable TV when I was a teenager. It's funny watching it again now because all the Richard Pryor humor hits me and I'm like mannn I remember using that line!!
@@prodigioussaps am not sure if a lot of people knew this, years ago CW channel used to be the WB channel, they would show a lot of movies, I remember around October, they would have one week they would show Nightmare on Elm St movies and the next week they would show the halloween movies. They did the same thing for all of the Superman movies. Superman 3 and 4 had tv movies. What I mean by that is if you watch Superman 3, the how it started is completely different from the beginning of Superman 3 they have right now on streaming and Blu etc.
Yes, there were added scenes to pad the broadcast out so long to be able to include ad breaks. I recorded 3 in 1988 or something and that’s the version I grew up with. You can find a montage of the cut scenes in YT. I have no idea why the longer version wasn’t released on video or DVD but it doesn’t feel the same watching the cut version.
I am literally astounded that you have not seen superman 3. You will probably see the shorter version with cut scenes. 42:29 I always wondered why Lois just stood by while superman decides to give up his powers. Why not intervene? Also 19:56 I’m no physicist, but I think maybe the kryptonians are so heavy that with the low gravity of the moon they would walk pretty normally unaffected? We see in Supergirl that the guy can’t even pick her up, and Superman weighs 225 as revealed in 1.
Good point about Lois in that scene, I think maybe she was just speechless at what she was witnessing. She does reveal later that she’s basically just stunned that he gave up his powers for her. Also good point about their weight! While we’re talking about this scene, I wonder has anyone come up with an explanation as to how they can speak in a vacuum…
@ Haha. There is no explanation for that one. But it happens again briefly in 4 as you’ll see. I’m still flabbergasted you haven’t seen the last 2. Like wow 😵💫 I enjoyed this vid, many good points that I had thought of but never heard discussed before. 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼(stayed up til 3am to watch)
Thanks so much! It’s Brendan that hasn’t seen III or IV yet, and yeah I was surprised to learn that myself. I haven’t seen Superman IV since it was in theaters, but it’s also been many many years since I’ve watched Superman III all the way through. I watched it on cable TV dozens of times when I was a teenager.
@@prodigioussaps It always bothered me that Lois seems so nonchalant about Superman denouncing his Kryptonian heritage, too - not even a step forward and cry "no!" Wouldn't they be lighter on the moon ..just as we are? now I am confused. It's seems an accepted convention in Superman that Kryptonians can speak in a vacuum. I've seen it in recent iterations also. Superman and Lois in the second season. Superman speaks to his brother, Tal-Rho when they reach the sun. Lois and Clark, he speaks to his clone in space. They shouldn't be able to breathe in a vacuum, either. (Lois and Clark mentions he has to hold his breath but then totally forgets in in other episodes.) Superman has never been a hard-science fiction story - it's like the pulp fiction of the 1920s and 30s or even earlier - science-fantasy?
I can go with the multiple Superman’s in the fortress as I just see it as some tech that Jor El made in the fortress. After all he can project himself as a hologram so why couldn’t Kal be able to utilise similar technology? I definitely prefer the Theatrical cut over the Donner Cut but really there’s a great version of Superman II if they combined elements of both as I feel the Brando scenes would elevate the film. Lastly the kiss, it’s silly but it does bizarrely have comic origins.
Sorry reacting as I’m watching The artic police scene is deleted therefore isn’t canon. It’s not in either cut, the Donner Cut features it as a deleted scene on the disc but not as part of the movie. The only version it exists in is the Restored International Cut. I don’t really see an issue with the way Zack Snyder did things. It’s just a different approach, his is how would this go down in the real world? And buildings would certainly get absolutely demolished. I can understand if it’s not for you but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation and shouldn’t be mocked for doing it differently imo. Also the kiss from Man of Steel always gets brought up but again I don’t see an issue with it. They’ve just been through hell together and it’s a moment of relief for them. It’s much worse in Aquaman when Arthur kisses Mera amongst all the killing happening right as they’re locking lips. Yet nobody ever brings that up.
Yeah, to be clear I personally don't WANT the Arctic Patrol scene to be canon, because the idea that the Fortress is easily accessible to anyone other than Superman is very silly. However I don't consider Zod's death to be canon, BUT at the same time I also don't consider his survival to be canon... because we don't really see either result. It's kinda like Schrödinger's Zod. I prefer the latter because that's how it was scripted, but ultimately nobody's wrong or right on that score, IMO. Sorry if our MoS takes offend you... we're just being honest! If we think something's stupid or bad we're not going to pull punches. We poke an almost equal amount of jabs at movies we love, as well. Keep in mind nothing we say is ever meant to be a reflection on your tastes or your fandom.
@ Schrödingers Zod I like that 😂 I don’t have issues with people disliking stuff I like. Or poking fun at, heck I poke fun at stuff I like. It’s when the validity of it something isn’t accepted that I take issue. Not that you were doing that.
IMO the biggest issue is that they decided to make this a two movie story. They should of just been stand alone. For one everything feels rushed. Continuity issues are everywhere. 1. Why is Luthor serving 25 to life without a trial? 2. In Donners version the 3 criminals escape WHILE Superman is saving California. I could write an essay on how much this story makes no sense. I just feel that love connection happens way too soon. Especially with him giving up his powers. It's too fast.
@henrywallacesghost5883 agree. And this was also a time before Sequels were common place, and Franchises virtually unheard of. Sequels usually cost more too. My thought was just go in a different direction. Not necessarily tie Superman 2 into the 1st movie. As it worked out neither Hackman nor Brando did any work for Lester and Brando was cut completely. Superman the Movie was such a big success and made a ton of money. About 1.3 billion today and that's with about 2000 less screens available. So I'm sure everybody deserves a raise. To me the 2 movies just seem rushed. They didn't come out back to back. At least Lester's version has a probable time jump from the end of Superman 1. Donner cut is immediately after . Which leads to many plot holes, and inconsistencies. But thats the Salkinds. Notoriously cheap.
About the three kryptonians, I would connect that with what they show on Smallville series, although there's a big time difference. In smallville the type of encasement those three are in seem to be some sort of "waiting hall" to later get to the Phantom Zone, so if this is the case they never get to the Phantom Zone in the Donnerverse, instead they are trapped in this "no mans land" encasement. I take it that with the destruction of Krypton the order of the transition from the encasement to the Phantom Zone never came to be.
So to clarify... is The Phantom Zone supposed to be a destination they were banished to by Jorel, and never arrived at; OR is it simply that thin square they were entrapped in, or was that only the vessel, and NOT the actual Phantom Zone as such...? Me still trying to learn stuff at 54 lol...
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Accourding to Smallville, that thin square is the vessel and from there they had to go to that entire dimension that is the Phantom Zone, but they remained in the square instead. Phantom Zone, at least in Smallville looks like some sort of wasteland filled with planes and small hills, were you get to meet all the people felt there befora, as aging doesn't happen in that dimension.
@@AndrewDyson-u2u And this is to complete it, but this is my guessing only: I think this devioce need to have a point of origin and a destination point to act correctly. In a Smallville episode two soldier of Zod trap Clark in this square, with Earth as origin point and the Phantom Zone as destination. At the end of that episode, Clark is trapped in that square, but at the beggining of the next one, its floor opens and he falls to an arid terrain. The three evil Kryptonians from Superman II are sent from Krypton to the Phantom Zone, but by the time that floor has to open Krypton is no more, so the process gets interrupted. This is just my guessing, but I think it fits with the story.
I think you should review Superman 3. It's worth checking out and despite the critics trashing it the way they did, they didn't give it a fair shot, all because it wasn't viewed as strong as the previous two films. That said, the comedy element does dominate the storyline, due to the Richard Pryor character being a computer hacker. However there are some good strong, dark moments in the film that I feel do not get the respect they deserve, such as Superman's fight with his "evil" self in the auto graveyard. I won't spoil it, but you'll see how he manages to overcome this entity and complete his mission. I saw Superman 3 when it came out and I was six years old and thought it was really cool. Over time, I've noticed what scenes work and the ones that do not. to push the plot forward and could have been omitted.
Which is your preferred version and why:
* SUPERMAN II or
* SUPERMAN II: The Donner Cut?
Superman II: The Adventure Continues.
@@prodigioussaps Donner Cut. It seems to have a more serious tone.
They are both flawed, they both have great elements. Can't pick just one. It's a good thing we have both, it would be even better if we had one version with the good parts and fewer flaws.
A better edited Donner Cut with about 5-10% more Lester footage to cover awkward parts I think is the ideal version.
Theatrical.
Not sure the beef with Supes made up powers. The character was defined by confidently made up powers.
@19:00 I worked with John on CHEERS and asked him about that. (He's also in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK)
He told me that it was because the union require that the film have a certain amount of American actors, and he was an American ex-patriot living in England at the time, so he got a lot of work on American productions.
Okay, wow cool! Thanks so much for that. Yeah I was kicking myself during the edit that we didn't mention John's appearance in EMPIRE because we highlight two other Star Wars actors (Angus McInnes and Richard LeParmentier).
What a trip to see you in the comments, btw -- great fan of your work, I just watched "Ackbar's Eleven" late last night and love it -- BRILLIANT editing work on that piece, monsieur! CHEERS 👊
The TV version had a lot of extras too that are hard to find. In the small town Zod is taking over, the little kid gets on a horse and goes for help. Non throws a police light from a car at him and he blows up. A townsperson says, “but he was just a boy.” And Ursa says, “who will never become a man.” Cold!
I wish Donner would have kept some more of the small town scenes, especially the (incredibly dark) kid on the horse scene and Ursa’s reaction, the reversing of time in the Donner Cut would also show the ‘resurrected’ kid, adding a bit to the good ending.
It's included in the alternate Donner version on Vudu, or at least it was. Hopefully, Warner Bros didn't pull it, yet.
@@heartofalegend From what I've read, anything added to the Donner Cut was done without his approval and should not have been added to it.
@@raystantz2471 That would make sense, although, I'm glad that sequence made it in. It has real gravitas and now I've got it in HD, so I can seamlessly add it to my fan cut of S2.
@@heartofalegend Yeah there's a really long write up by The Caped Wonder who discussed the extra scenes added and the fact that this digital version can't be bought anymore, and the fact that whoever added them did it without Donner's approval, because he's passed away, and also that they don't know why they were added.
Terrence Stamp as General Zod is the quintessential comic villain. He was so perfectly in character.
Yes, hard to think of anyone better.
Kneel before Terrence Stamp!
I couldnt stand Michael Shannon in Man of Steel! Forever Stamp, infact I really wished he were in The Flash (2023).
The story how Ratzenberger got his Cheers job is amazing. He was auditioning for another character and was bombing and as he was leaving. He turned around and said do you have a know it all patron character? They said no and he litterally created the character Cliff Clavin right there at the casting call.
One piece of dialogue you didn't mention is the icing on top of the cake when Clark enters the diner at the end. He see's the bully and says 'gee, that's funny, I've never seen garbage eat garbage before'. It's funny and corny all at once and completely fits the tone of his one liners.
Yeah, I do like that line! Cheers
I always felt a human Clark Kent could have still taken that guy out. Reeve was a big dude.
@henrywallacesghost5883 He certainly could have if he was actually prepared to defend himself as a non-powered human being, but he wasn't. He also clearly wasn't thinking straight in the moment. He had no reflexes to block the guy, he just stands there and takes a punch to the gut thinking he could take it, because with powers he never had to worry about that, and he was completely overwhelmed by the pain. Imagine being reduced to maybe 1% of your normal strength, resilience and stamina. He had no idea what pain was until that moment.
So was Pepper Martin, he was a Wrestler!
That is correct and like I said Pepper Martin was big, 6'2 224 as billed in the ring, when he stand up to Clark at the end you can see he's almost the same height bout an inch and a half shorter.
One of the reason the Lester cut didn't include more Donner footage (even though it would've worked fine, story-wise) is that according to DGA rules, Lester had to have the dominant percentage of footage in the final version to gain single directorial authorship.
Yep, you’re right, we didn’t touch on that detail.
That is basically what I said above.🙂
They could have got a waiver for that but that would of needed Donner's permission and I'm sure the producers and Richard were not talking.
Yeah Donner was just over it, and I don’t blame him.
@@MrEchoes1962
Look at mr. Know it all…
SMH
It's made clear that the truck driver beats up weak guys on a regular basis.
So I thought Clark was justified to go back and beat him up.
They kept that truck driver who needed a lesson in "Man of Steel" also, but Clark decided not defeat him in public just destroyed his rig.
In Donner's version when Superman turns back time why would Clark even mention that the bully was sitting in his favorite chair? the bully wouldn't even remember him from before.
@raulzavala9061 I only meant in the theatrical, since I think the guys were calling Clark petty for going after the guy in that version.
It could potentially make sense that Clark would want to set the guy straight in the Donner Cut, but it makes no sense that he doesn't say why, and there's no reason to announce that he'd been lifting weights since nobody ever saw him before.
@@kathleenhensley5951 That's ridiculous, much like the rest of that movie.
@@raulzavala9061 Yes....but only Clark knows the reference. Since the bully doesn't acknowledge that comment, the bully doesn't care at all and just wants to fight Clark.
Alright so thanks to you guys I finally got around to watching the Donner Cut. I definitely have some thoughts. While some of the Lester Schtick is silly, I missed some of the silliness... Not all of it. but some of it. I didn't like that they eliminated the scene where the Kryptonians first arrive on planet houston and wreak havoc, but rather just cut to the little town burning and going crazy. Stuff I really liked was that we finally learn why superman was able to get his powers back. It always bugged me in the original version that he just grabs the green crystal and next scene he has his powers back. That said, I did NOT like the turn back time ending. My issue is, it seems to me that in the hierarchy of Jorel rules superman might break, messing with human history ranks a little higher than having a human girlfriend. So if he's so willing to TWICE turn back time and mess with history, why then is he unwilling to say "screw you dad, I'm gonna be with lois and keep my powers". Now, perhaps if he went the spiderman route of saying he doesn't want to put Lois in danger since he'll always have enemies, maybe.
Another thing that hit me, somehow more in this version, was that I didn't buy that Superman would let go of his powers to be with lois and not even consider the possibility that, maybe, one of the reasons she's so hot for him is because of his powers. I mean, she's this gorgeous "career gal" that won't look twice at Clark, but falls head over heals for Superman. Maybe, just maybe, him flying her around the night sky in superman 1 had something to do with that. Now, no more powers, it would never occur to him that she might find him a lot less appealing?
Cool, glad you finally saw it! Yeah, I think I agree with everything you're saying.
I have many problems with the whole giving-up-his-powers thing, but I do like the high stakes situation it puts him in, so I'm kind of torn.
The time reversing ending of the Donner Cut is definitely problematic, but I choose to look past it because in reality, there isn't an ending for the Donner Cut, as he was never able to finish the movie. Turning back time was the original ending for II, but once they halted production on II and moved the time reversal moment to the first movie, they were planning to write and shoot a totally new ending for II. Lester's answer was the magic kiss (probably concocted by screenwriter David Newman), but we'll never really know what Donner and Mankiewicz would have done. I think of it like a lost Beatles album or something like that... we can piece together what it might have been, but ultimately it's just fragments of a great movie that was never finished.
I loved the scene when the villains enter the diner and the guy says "The Circus is in town" and Ursa arm wrestles the guy and destroys him and the table.
Good, but even Over the Top still didn't beat the best arm wrestling scene in The Fly remake.
Let's Just Hold Hands. Let me know if this tickles. SMASH! I think my arms broken. Girl or no girl, your gonna spit teeth, Get Up! And Zod with just his fingers sends that big dude flying, crashing thru the wall, thru the chicken fence and outside infront of Sherriff Floor Walker! Is that you Boog?
@buddymckane1179 That's right! From Cool Hand Luke.
Yep. Any man whom didn't know that spends a night in the Box!
The Donner cut doesn't have John Williams score over the fluttering news papers when Superman returns which was a goose bump moment for me as kid. I also prefer "step outside" to "freedom of the press" because it feels more like Superman means business. Overall the Donner cut doesn't work for me and that's probably due to watching the original so much in the early 80s.
I actually like “Freedom of the Press” more in that he’s not making it about him. In the Donner Cut he prioritizes Lois, Jimmy, and Perry’s lives over him reasserting his mojo…
I call the paper flutter/music 'our generations portal scene'. It's far superior to the "Freedom of the Press" version.
Another change in the Donner cut is in the before the opening credits, where they show the original ending for Superman: The Movie. Superman tosses one of the missiles into space, which destroys the phantom zone containing Zod, Ursa, and Non, allowing them to escape. In the theatrical Lester Cut, it's the hydrogen bomb in the Eiffel Tower elevator that is thrown into space.
I like Luthor so much better in Superman 2 compared to the first film. He's really funny, clever and wasn't constricted by a generic rich guy villain plot. He got to show more personality and entertainment value making deals with the more physically powerful Kryptonians.
@@Weezing336 Gene Hackman didn't film a single minute of film for Richard Lester, so that was all Donner stuff
@@williamavitt8264Yeah, Hackman and Kidder were both very upset when Donner was fired. Unlike Kidder, Hackman was already a established star and gave two shi*s who he offended.
The Donner Cut was interesting, but I think Lester’s version was better. The only thing I wished Lester would have put in was Clark regaining his powers at the Fortress.
Superman returning to Metropolis miraculously having his powers back even as a kid left me scratching my head.
I think Lester's version works the best as we see Clark all helpless and all of a sudden he sees the glowing crystal and the music swelling indicating his powers are coming back.
I understood when he found the green crystal what happened and I was 5😂
I appreciate you featuring our comic in the background! Making the Superman ‘78 comic sequels with the full cast has been a boyhood dream come true!
Oh man! Thrilled you found us, I LOVE the first series and can’t to read the latest! We have another clip where you see me flipping out when I learn that “Metal Curtain” exists. I hope y’all keep that series running, it’s so brilliant. Cheers 👊
@@artmonkeys I am envious of everyone working on that comic!
@ChristopherJonesArt Holy crap, another DC star! Cheers, Mr. Jones - means the world to us that you guys are finding our stuff. 👊
@ Always interested in making more comics!
@@prodigioussaps you should get the two series artists to come on your show! They’re both very affable!
Just found your show and I’m thrilled!! Algorithm pays off sometimes! I’m 53. Saw Superman 1&2 in the theater. Superman 1 is one of my top 3 favorite movies of all time. I watch it every year. It’s SORELY underrated, and as a comic book junkie, it’s still the GREATEST comic book adaptation ever and set the template for every adaptation since.
Superman 2 was enjoyable, but even while watching it at 10 years old, I wished I was watching that “new” movie Raiders of the lost Ark.
For years, I always felt “ If only Donner got to finish the sequel “. Well, we finally got to see it in the box set a few years back. I enjoyed it despite the limitations and last year saw a double bill of 1 and the Donner cut of 2 on the big screen.
The Kryptonian criminals encounter with the astronauts always felt off to me. Lex in jail is outright dumb. Lois jumping out the window is silly but ok. I appreciate the more serious tone.
The Brando scenes are MUCH better. I was also disappointed to find out powered Clark beating up the truck driver was a Donner choice. Not very heroic.
Lois discovering Clark is Superman is soooo good, even the test footage works. You can see why Kidder was the perfect choice.
If I’m watching Superman 2? It’s the Donner cut, flaws and all. I LOVE Richard Lester as well.
Head canon tells me Jor El was right. Superman altered time and created his own inferior movie multiverse, where each sequel got worse and worse.
So glad to find this channel, but m I’m looking forward to deep diving all the STMP videos!!
Cheers George! Thanks so much - glad you found us. I like your head canon about the consequences of time travel being crappy sequels.
When I was a kid getting to watch Superman the movie & Superman 2, when they were released in theaters was awesome!
Getting older, you release Lester's version has way too much slapstick in Superman 2. Getting to finally see the Donner Cut, as Donner intended Superman 2 to be. Donner's Cut (for story wise and look) is the superior version. If Warner's can release the Superman 3-hour TV version on DVD, I wish Warner's would do a Special Superman 2 Ultimate Cut, using both of the Lester & Donner versions into one complete movie.
Well you are opening a can of worms now; Warner has left it too late now, as both directors have sadly passed.
So hypothetically, who would be authorised to do the editing in their absence?
WB would have been better served trying to 4K the 3 hour International cut of Superman 2, which we all saw on TV back in when, 1982?
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Since both Lester & Donner have passed away, it would take a very talented director that would respect the source material and be unbiased to either director and could use CGI tech to blend certain scenes, also using deleted scenes and the 3 hour International cut to create the Ultimite version of Superman 2.
@@UPCM01 As long as Kathleen Kennedy doesn't go near it; then it still might be viable!
@@AndrewDyson-u2u 😂
To me, the goofiest scene was Perry White being knocked unconscious when his head was driven through a ceramic ceiling tile that was only 1 mm thick. 😆🤣😂
Yeah that was odd.. Lol
In all fairness I think Perry kept a bottle of whiskey in his desk drawer and was probably close to passing out anyway😂
I'm surprised that you didn't catch it on your IMDB search, but the TV reporter/SW Death Star officer is Sarah Douglas' (Ursa) real-life husband.
A “Best Of All Possible Worlds” version of Superman II does exist, and I think it’s available in Europe. It aired as a complete television version of the movie on ABC in the early 80’s. I think “The Richard Donner Cut” maybe could have restored that entire television rendition of the movie, but Donner wanted to exclude as much Lester footage as possible.
I also as a kid thought the Zoners fell down into some sort of Fortress holding cell type thing. Which I guess is a very action figure playset way to view it right? Castle Greyskull had a holding cell for bad guys, I think the Super Powers Collection Hall Of Justice also had one, the GI Joe base etc.
I also remember thinking that maybe falling down those shafts maybe led to the Phantom Zone somehow and he’d set that up just like he did the thing with the power chamber.
When the Kryptonian villains were turned human, a 20+ foot fall would have done serious damage to their bodies, especially if they landed on a hard crystal surface, like the chutes.
No, Supes deceased them 😂 I think Zack Snyder was a young AD on set and was put in charge of the ending with all the on set turmoil. 😉
The Donner films are coming at the Clark/Superman dynamic from a Pre-Crisis standpoint. The now more familiar idea of Clark being who he is started Post-Crisis. I realize those terms are gonna be jibberish to anyone who doesn’t read comics but in a nutshell there was a reboot in 1986 and before that Clark was basically the disguise with Superman/Kal-El being the real person.
At the end of day both are extensions of the same person it’s just that Daily Planet Clark is a couple gears down whereas Superman is a high-gear. Think of it like when you’re at work, you’re yourself but an adjusted version of yourself for the sake of being professional or being customer servicey or whatever. Clark adjusts himself to help facilitate that disguise.
In the commentary for Superman The Movie, Donner and Mankiewicz say the plan was originally for part 1 to end with Superman sending the first missile into outer space and it setting the supervillains free from the Phantom Zone, then part II would end with him turning back time. But because 80% of the way through filming the budget had gone insane, the Salkinds said forget about part II, just give us a good part I, so they moved the turning back time ending to part I.
I don't care what everyone says. The theatrical LESTER cut is MUCH better than the Donner cut. For that we already have the masterpiece "Superman The Movie" Superman II is about Paris, Niagara falls and lots of fun.
I think I prefer the theatrical cut myself.
I agree. I don't know if Donner had already done a lot and the other director didn't do much or what, but Superman II was already my favorite.
Had Donner's Cut came out first (as it was intended to be in 1980) would you say the same?
@@davidm4566Donner filmed 80% of S2 before he was sacked/fired
Lester did a fine job finishing Donner's vision but his comedic sensibilities dominated part 3 and took us away from the realism Donner created. There was almost no action in the Smallville scenes in 1, but are some of the most beautifully shot and acted scenes in the movie. I just love the slow burn where young Clark creates the fortress and spends years learning from his father and Krypton scholars. Then you see Reeve for the first time flying away. I was hooked as a kid from that moment on.
Just found the channel with one of the cut down clips, searched for the full episode. Great video and channel just subbed and catching up
Oh cool! Thanks Patrick, glad you found us. 👊
I'll defend Superman's "soft" magic system. We know the hard rules, but his stranger, more loose and even humorous abilities add to the fun. And I think it goes along with a mysterious, Kryptonian set of technology and abilities that we dont quite understand. A Kryptonian trap or weapon would seem strange to us. Same with the capabilities of the Fortress.
Honestly the fact that you haven't seen III and IV might make it extra interesting to do, just to see the contrast between the two. Oddly, IV was the one I had on VHS as a kid and so watched over and over, I only occasionally watched the others as I rented them.
When it comes too superman's heat vision as Clarke his glasses didn't get melted in superman 2
Yeah I remember thinking that as a kid... why didn't he tilt his glasses down first?
You guys are discussing in depth my absolute favourite movies as a kid. Some friends of the family had taped it off the TV with beta max and paused the adverts out. You know you love something properly when you can keep watching after so many times, know it word for word, and all the emotions you experienced get doubled up. First with your anticipation of the bit you know is coming, and then amplified during the aforementioned bit. Sheesh Christopher Reeves was so perfect for this role and I love Henry Cavill. I've never read a comic book in my life. I was obsessed with Smallville at the time it was airing. Bought the box set seasons and I don't think I've even watched them. The first movie is so fantastic. It's the superhero version of A New Hope
"Superhero version of A New Hope"... you're so right! Star Wars came the year before and those two films have often been tied at number one for me. Lately Superman has taken over the #1 spot.
And yes, wow, pausing the commercials out... that was kind of like using the Force, mastering that skill. Often you kinda had to feel the show about come back on. Cheers, thanks for your comments. 👊
@@nathangrund7216 Reeve, not Reeves
“ Scruffy, so morbid a sentimental replica of a planet long since vanished,no style at all?” General Zod on the fortress of solitude.
I do like that line, one omission from the Donner Cut that I miss.
The thing to remember about "why did Lester cut that or add that" was his need to get the percentage of his work into it. So yeah, cutting a 2-3 minute scene may seem like a little, but actually it all adds up.
True, that was a big part of it.
Lester actually only accepted the job because the Salkinds still owed him money for the 3 Musketeers and agreed to pay him for that. Literally a director for hire. None of the problems was his fault.
The Bully in the bar, it doesn't make sense that Superman goes back for revenge in Donner cut, because after turning back time, it never happen, so it has the feel that people could think something like: what's up with this tall guy with glasses that we just met for the first time in our lives, came and gave a beating to that truck driver. At least he paid the damages afterwards.
Also the sequence of Superman flying with the American flag and the replacement roof talking to the president was not there.
When I was a kid, I used to think that the stuff in the fortress was set up by Superman as traps for Zod. He knew that Luther had been there and knew he would lead them to it. So, he “retreated” to the fortress and set some traps for them. Of course the whole telekinesis stuff is dumb but I did try to rationalize it. I also like the cellophane S shield trap. It’s Kryptonian tech! 😂😂
Yeah that is one way to look at it! And to be fair, for as goofy as Superman III was, Lester didn't bring back any of those made-up powers in that movie. It's basically just the tried-and-true heat vision, super breath, super hearing and so forth.
Yes that’s true. On a side note, my older brother and I still punch in the air and say: “Ever herd of parachutes?!” To this day. We always thought that was funny and not Hackman.
I always felt it was stuff that the Fortress was equipped with that helped him get the upper hand too.
The original Donner ending was supposed to be the beginning of the Donner cut. The missiles free the villains and the movie ends with the three headed to earth.
I love this movie but my only pet peeve is that he doesn’t move his glasses when using his heat vision, Dean Cain always did.
This annoys me even more than the cellophane S disappearing after he throws it. That could have neutralised him completely.
Even though 70 percent of *Superman II* was shot by Richard Donner before his firing, in order for Richard Lester to receive director credit, he had to finish the remaining 30 percent in addition to another 19 percent to achieve filming 51 percent of the movie. Therefore, many of Donner's scenes were reshot and rewritten in addition to dumping Marlon Brando's footage to save money.
It's my understanding that the phantom zone jail Zod was in never made it to the phantom zone due to Krypton's destruction and was pulled along the course of Superman's ship the same as the Kryptonite fragments.
my preference is the Donner cut, it's a little more serious and Non feels like much more of a menace and less like odd incompetent goof.
That’s a cool theory!
I always looked at the weird powers as he continues to discover powers as he evolves.
I like both the Lester and Donner versions.
1-There is a clear difference in how they both view how a Superman version should be.
2-Lester probably threw in a couple extra, unneccessary scenes, to get credit as Director of the movie (50%+ of the footage), such as flying past an airplane, while making a loopty loop..or making a souffle at the Fortress of Solitude.
3-I feel like Margot Kidder's appearance changed in a couple of the scenes (likely made by Lester)...compared to Donner sequences..how much change can a person have in appearance, in less than 3 years??
"I'm the man they're protecting. I'm the president. I'll kneel before you if it will save lives"
"It will! Starting with your own" lol 😆
Great line!
The “magic kiss” was actually a power in the comics. Matter fact if u read older some Superman comix, they always made up goofy powers.
There’s a fan edit where they combine the best parts of both films and it came out fantastic.
I always thought the one where Lois walked through Superman is actually a hologram which is a well-known technology even then and I happen to like the cellophane S, but I do think it could’ve been designed to look more like energy than a cellophane S.
One thing about Clark in the comics is that he isn’t so goofy. I hate the way that he was portrayed in the original films.
As a kid, I always wondered,when Supes turns back time,who(or what) does he not save to make up that time to save Lois?.I always pictured him let someone else maybe die to save her?.And if Supes can turn back time,why not go back a little further and stop Lex Luther’s plan before he can hatch it
It's a movie. The term "the suspension of disbelief" is not only needed but required to enjoy your movies.
If no one else has mentioned it, the scene in the Donner Cut where Clark goes back to take revenge on the guy in the diner is not only petty, but he's taking revenge for something that NEVER HAPPENED.
Richard Donner specifically said that the 'Turn Back Time' scene was meant to be in "Superman Ii" because it was the best way for Kal-El to fix what happened when The Phantom Zone was shattered. However, when alexander and ilya salkunt saw the time reversal footage, they insisted that it be used for the first movie! Lois was never supposed to die in "Superman: The Movie"!!!
Yeah, although I've heard different stories about who came up with that idea, moving the ending to the first movie. There was at least one interview I heard where Donner made it sound like it was his idea, but he might have been misremembering how the idea it started.
Funny thing is, I think it works so much better in the first movie than how it was originally scripted for II. I think by that point Donner and "Mank" were really on a roll, so the revisions to the first script to fit that in work so, so damn well.
I agree with you guys. A combination of the 2 films would be perfect. Each has elements I like. The theater release scene where Superman challenges Zod has a better line than in Donner's version, but Donner has more things I like in his version.
A lot of people forget that a lot of Richard Lester's Superman 2 footage was filmed by Richard Donner himself so Lester had to film footage to allow him to be credited as the Director.....so for me the Original footage/is Richard Donner's so the Donner Cut is the one to go for.
Also there are continuity errors with Lois. In some scenes she looks kinda sickly and gaunt, and other times she looks more healthy.
I have the Superman 2 theatrical release on vhs and recently purchased the the collection of all 4 movies with the Richard Donner cut on dvd. I personally didn't like the Donner cut because of dragged out scenes that was not really necessary to make a great movie. I think you have to maintain a balance in your production with fast paced scenes but also getting your point across not revealing alot which is called imagination.
One other thing I forgot to mention was....
1.There is film footage that Lester shot that is in Donner's Cut because Donner was sacked/fired and therefore he could not film it at the time.
2.Donner's Cut has two crucial footage that is NOT in Lester's cut and they are ALL the Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando footage .....you will not see ANY footage of both actors in Lester's cut and that is what makes the Donner Cut the best.🙂👍
Yep, we talk about that in the episode. Cheers 👊
Just edited to add THANK YOU! Sorry I've been replying to comments for hours today, I'm getting a little dizzy.
You guys didn't talk about it but John Williams also did not return to score instead he allowed for Ken Thorne to use his musical arrangement which in my opinion actually works well in the movie, yeah sure the orchestra was smaller but everytime I listed to the soundtrack CD it's like I'm playing out the movie in my mind it placed better here than in Superman The Movie, yeah I don't care what John Williams' fans think about.
11:11 When I was in my late teens, my grandmother sent me to rent Superman 1 for my much younger cousin. They had a copy of Superman 2, and he'd watched it a million times, so he wanted to see part 1. I did as they'd asked and sat in the room as the movie began, and both my grandmother and my 5-6yo cousin told me "You got the wrong movie! This is the same movie!"
I was quite familiar with these movies, and I assured them that I had not made a mistake. This _WAS_ Superman 1. This was a different movie than the one that he'd been watching. But it took them a good 10 minutes or more to begin to even contemplate that I might be right, and they might be wrong.
Ha, that’s great. Cheers 👊
50:55 - You nailed it here. Zod carries this film. (Margot is great as well, but) Zod makes it amazing, and is a fantastic villain.
Great actor.
Well said!
Donner Cut without a doubt. I do really like the theatrical as well, but Donner Cut shows a more cohesive story. Only downside of Donner Cut is no "care to step outside". Awesome vid guys.
Thanks Bobby! 👊 Yeah that was a much better line, no question.
I hope someone puts together a “Super” cut of both versions to take the best of both movies.
Many of us did that back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released on DVD. We didn't want to have to choose between both versions, but instead, just wanted to have one movie that contained the best of both versions. My original re-edited, re-scored opening title sequence is still on Rumble, as far as I know, and other fans' original title sequence for their fan cuts is also still available for viewing, as well.
Like the Godfather saga that came out years ago. It is chronologically cut and is awesome. I'm a big Breaking Bad fan and still tell people do not watch Better Call Saul first because it's both a prequel and sequel.
Thank you 2 so much for this conversation.
Thank you for watching! Cheers 👊
IIRC Lester had to be responsible for at least 50% of the film to be able to put his name on it, hence he needed to reshoot Donner scenes even if he might not have otherwise wanted to.
Yeah I read something along those lines but according to the Hollywood Director's Guild the film needs at least 70% for it to be considered under Lester's name.
If you watch Donner's _Scrooged_ with Bill Murray, there's a subplot in there of rival tv executive named Bryce Cummings [played deliciously by John Glover] that the big boss brings in to "help" Murray's character, and once I really dove in hard on the whole thing between Donner and Salkinds/Spengler, it's _really awesome_ how Donner incorporated the Richard Lester situation that he went through on _Superman_ into _Scrooged_ . . . it's really funny, and there are a couple moments where the Cummings character says, word-for-word, what Lester said to Donner after the Salkinds brought Lester in to "help" out on the first one [Donner felt, correctly, that they'd brought him in to spy on him and eventually replace him].
Anyhooo, I think a great idea for you guys would be to actually do a video where you do a deep dive on that element of _Scrooged_ , and a deep dive on the Donner/Lester thing, because it's really fascinating, and it's also really funny.
Oh man. Thanks, I never knew that. I will definitely watch Scrooged and report back. I think I saw it once but it’s been decades.
@prodigioussaps There's something I like to call "Citizen Kane pixie dust" and it means that any film that has a connection to _Citizen Kane_ can't be all bad. Mank's uncle Joseph wrote the screenplay to Kane, so therefore _Superman_ has Citizen Kane pixie dust. The cool thing is that there's also such a thing as "Superman: The Movie pixie dust" . . . that dust doesn't necessarily mean that a film that has it will be good [sometimes it will] but it'll probably be interesting. I love the moment in Goonies when Sloth rips open his shirt, reveals his Superman shirt, and the theme plays gloriously. Doesn't happen if Donner doesn't direct that film.
He dropped his shoulders and a great performance and scene I love it still watches it today!
After watching this video, I decided to revisit both versions last night... specifically paying attention to the excessive use of ADR. Besides Luthor's heavy ADR, it seems like Ursa's voice was much higher pitched in many of the Donner shots. Lester may have had her use a deeper (more menacing) voice.
Good catch! Wouldn’t surprise me… he definitely did that with Zod as well. You can totally hear the difference in his voice in the Donner footage. Either it’s ADR or some kind of studio trickery to down pitch their voices slightly. Someone here in the comments knows, I’m sure.
Ursa was overdubbed by the actress in Suoerman III who plays the sister of the main villain. The one that gets turned into a robot. Name escapes me.
@reuvengershon6625 Ahhh right, Annie Ross! Thanks for that.
Some day you should watch Superman 3 and 4 but the next movie you watch should be Superman Returns which is a direct sequel to Superman 1 and 2.
Fair point!
Superman returns is still my favorite of the older movies.
@@kathleenhensley5951 Superman Returns is my favorite sequel to the original Superman.
OMG SUPERMAN III would have been awesome if Lex Luthor and Lois Lane had gotten super powers from the Kryptonian rays that took away the powers of the villains in Superman II. And Superman and Lois had to defeat Lex in Superman III. That would have been much better than what we got with Richard Pryor in the actual movie.
The actor who played the president was E. G. Marshall. His first name was Everett not Edward.
Margot was absolutely Amazing in Superman 78. Sadly, she was clearly going through a great deal personally during the period of shooting the Lester footage, she looked nothing like herself, besides the terrible wig she was wearing, poor lighting and makeup. The weight loss in her pretty face was striking when watching the movie with adult eyes and shifting between the Donner and Lester footage. I would go as far as to say that she would have likely never been cast by Donner if she had tested appearing as she did in S #2. It’s strange because she looked herself for her role during amityville horror in 79. In the end, the truth is that we will never know what Donner and Mank would have invented for S#2 if had been given the time and opportunity to elevate the material. Case in point both versions that were shot for Luther’s escape from prison for #2. Having had missed the summer release in 78, they were racing wildly during most of 78 to make the Christmas release. Only Chris could have possibly saved the post for Donner on S#2, had he put his foot down, but it just didn’t work out that way. The baby got thrown out with the bath water.
I remember noticing the difference in Margot's appearence when I watched this movie at about ten years old. I couldnt really figure out why she looked so different between scenes til I learned the whole story about how the movie(s) were made.
Kidder was great for sure, BUT... if we could turn back time [maybe some pun intended lol...) then Anne Archer would have been a more classy choice for Lois Lane
Here's my take on it, I was 5 when I first saw the theatrical cut and I loved every minute of it as a kid I didn't pick up on things like the cellophane \S/ and the blatant product placement, why did I care I was only 5 years old. Now as an adult I can appreciate Donner's cut as an unfinished "lost" film and it's great to finally see more new scenes of Brando but IMO I will always go with the theatrical cut to this day it is the best superhero sequel thus far and the Metropolis battle isn't over the top as Zack Snyder's ridiculous Playstation version of it in Man Of Steel.
Well said. I always like Lester's version but I have to say I've come away with a new appreciation for what he accomplished after digging into all this so deeply for these videos. I just wish Lester had pushed for a better script in Superman III. More on that coming soon...
How does he cook anything in the fortress of solitude, do we not see the kitchen in the back with plates and cutlery and glasses and buckets for champagne or is all that in one brown bag?
You guys ever notice how _completely different_ Margot Kidder looks in the Lester footage as opposed to what Donner shot? When I saw the film when it first was in theaters, I didn't know about all the behind-the-scenes stuff, but I noticed how different Kidder looked. It's odd, but she looks noticeably worse in the Lester footage.
As a kid, no, but it’s abundantly obvious to me now. I don’t think she looks worse IMO, she’s just way skinnier.
@@prodigioussaps Yeah, skinnier definitely. Buy her hairstyle just doesn't look the same at all, and her lips really look different. It's odd, as if when they reconvened to film Lester's stuff in 1979 and 80, they cut corners even on hair and makeup. The Metropolis and Fortress sequences at the end, which cuts back and forth quite often between Donner/Lester, is really strange. I felt it subconsciously when it was in theaters, but as I've gotten older, it's a kind of schizophrenic experience, one I've never really seen to that extent in any other film.
Yeah good point, that is strange that they chose to do her hair differently.
@@prodigioussaps There are rumors that Margot started going a little overboard with certain substances in '79. I'm with you on her performance, though: her actual work in II is wonderful. She never phones it in, and her chemistry with Reeve is fantastic. I dunno, man . . . for me, Donner's work [which means Mank, Reeve, Hackman, Brando, Kidder, Unsworth] on Superman, and not just John Williams but John Williams _and_ the LSO . . . that troupe of people constitute the _absolute definition_ of Superman. It's impossible for me to seriously consider any other film iterations of that character, and it all boils down to how Donner decided, once he was on board, that they were gonna give that character the respect he deserved.
You’re absolutely right man. Firing Donner was like breaking up the Beatles, but like in 1964 or something, right as they were getting off the ground. The world was robbed.
Superman II : the Donner cut
It’s the only one I can watch without cringing.
Because Superman the movie and Superman II were supposed to be one saga
Mario Puzo. You had people at the top of their game working on the first film and the second would have been a beautiful ending.
Thank God, we were able to see it in theform it is currently in at least.
There is no iteration of Superman that has been done since the first film that has not taken from it because it was so forward thinking and visionary.
Shot together, written as one piece….
They blend perfectly together as masterpieces.
I applaud the effort to make the Donner cut a reality.
To remove him from the film, from Superman II and completing his vision in 1979 was disgraceful.
but even worse, was to replace him with Richard Lester, who was following him around set during the shooting of Superman the movie. It’s such an ugly business.
Hollywood is an ugly place. No loyalty.
And then there's interfering, next level arrogant arseholes like the Salkinds and Pierre Spengler to deal with....
Superman II is always gonna be a "Frankenstein" type film because of how Margot Kidder looks between either cut. She's physically different in the Lester footage than she is in the Donner footage.
I bet Pepper Martin (Rocky) was a really nice guy, may he Rest in Peace.
One interesting difference I saw between the 2 versions was how Superman dealt with Non in the fight scene over Metropolis. In Lester's version he comically kicks him, while in the Donner footage, after Ursa says she doubts he'd hit her because she is a woman, Superman turns right around and hits Non with a clenched fist, just what one would expect the Man of Steel to do.
That line by Ursa is from the extended ABC broadcast airing of S2 directed by Lester, the Metropolis fight in the theatrical is still the best whereas the fight in the Donner version is clearly hobbled together using whatever footage was at hand and looks clunky and unfinished.
I still felt when he put the tower on Zon it was a mistake. Like Zon isn't just going to throw back off himself again😂
The Thing about his Powers like the Plastic S, he throws etc, I always believed his Powers are stronger and Differnt in the Fortress of Solitute
Yeah that could definitely explain some of those things, Kryptonian tech, etc. But even then we’re left with weird stuff like the levitating finger laser thing that the villains do.
@@prodigioussaps Truw there is a lot of Nonsenes happening, its just my way of thinking of the strange crap that's going on lol.. anyway great video guys
Thanks Sky!
Guilty pleasure: my father and I always loved the laughing guy in the phone booth.
Overall I prefer the Lester version, the Donner cut just seems like a vanity project, but does have some good additional footage/alternate takes. I edited the two versions together to form my own Ultimate Cut which is now the version I watch.
There's something you didn't notice about the endings of both Theatrical and the Donnor Cut in regard to the Truck Driver. Yes, the Mighty Superman is getting petty Revenge on this Bully, however one of these endings should not have happened at all and Superman looks even worse when you realize it. In the Donnor Cut, Superman altered history which undid ALL the damage Zod & Co. had done and Lois's memories, essentially the events of the film. Which means what happened the Diner never happened. Clark is bullying a guy who ultimately did nothing to him. Another thing to consider, with history being altered is the Jor-El A.i. still alive and the Fortress not destroyed?
This is why Time Travel solutions can be frustrating when proper thought isn't put into them.
Oh we mentioned that discrepancy with the truck driver briefly towards the beginning of the video. But yeah, we didn't go into detail about it. That's one of several really weird problems with Mankiewicz's original script for Superman II... I love Mankiewicz, he was brilliant screenwriter and had a lot to do with what makes those first two movies so good, but he wasn't very good at writing science fiction.
The time travel thing works a hell of a lot better when they moved it to the first movie, IMO... and if Donner and Mank had been able to finish shooting II back in the day, the time travel thing wouldn't have happened again. I like to think they would have come up with something a lot better... but we'll never know what it could have been.
Richard Donner Directed 100% of Superman the Movie and also Directed 80% of Superman 2 so Donner only needed to complete 20% more before he was sacked.....Then Lester comes along and has to take out 40-45% of Donner's footage and then film his footage to be credited as Director of Superman2.
If Superman killed them, then Lois is a murderer too. She “killed” Ursa.
I would tell people that like or love Christopher Reeve too watch Somewhere in Time. This man was a solid actor and deserves to be known as more than Superman(which is awesome on its own).
Yes, that is a wonderful film. Always loved that one.
Superman’s line ‘we used to play this game as kids.’ How is that possible since he left Krypton as an infant?😮
I think it’s just a joke, at most a reference to plain old hide-and-seek. But I think he was playfully messing with Lois, because at this point he was basically just toying with Zod, waiting for the right moment to pull his reverse molecule chamber trick.
love your guys videos, BUT i got to point out what i consider the biggest plot failure. why would Lois want to be with "Clark" after he gives up his powers??? sorry to make her out to be shallow, but the only reason Lois ever fell in love with "Superman" is because he is THE ultimate ALPHA male? they first met as part of him rescuing her. so come on, as soon as she heard him bargaining away his powers i think she would have been saying: "wait wait wait, ugh, lets talk about this". or maybe after clark gets his butt kicked, lois says: "ya know, i have been thinking about doing this story on a playboy billionaire from Gotham, i think i will be on assignment for a couple weeks - see ya"
Haaaa yeah that is a great point. They do kind of hint at it a little bit in that overdubbed dialog as they’re driving to the diner afterwards, Clark’s awkward “Hey you’re awfully quiet over there…”
I don’t know if it’s a plot failure really, because the point seems to be the whole thing was a huge mistake to begin with, and the dire consequences start playing out almost immediately, with him totally unprepared to defend her without his powers, and then of course the Zod drop. But yeah it would have been good to have Lois vocally expressing doubt about it right before he steps in the chamber.
And thanks!! 👊
@@prodigioussaps In "Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut", when Kal steps into the chamber to remove his powers, Marlon-El looks at Lois with actual anger!
On to Part 2 looking forward to this
Kal El
Is Superman and Clark Kent at the same time
Dude, spoiler alert!!!
47.08 had me laughing in tears
😀👊
I like the Richard Donner cut. However, there are things I preferred about the Richard Lester version. Some of the romantic moments with Sup and Lois were a bit choppy and could have lasted several seconds longer in the Donner cut. Some of the alternate takes in the original Superman 2 were better.
Lester needed to shoot more than half the film with his own style as Donner refused to share credit with him. That's why Lester has to reshoot scenes differently.
The ending where we see the Kryptonians alive wasn't in the Donner Cut & was in the deleted footage section. As a kid I always felt Superman killed them because as you guys mention, they are vulnerable humans now & the fortress is built on top of the freezing Arctic waters. Even if the falls don't kill them, the hyperthermia will. It's also quite interesting how people will justify torture sinply because it's not death, even though they are being tortured. Superman in the comics for the most part wouldn't torture them by breaking their human hand & throwing them across the room. Superman also has killed in the comics (he's killed Zod the most) too but again rarely. To be fair though since he turns back time, their deaths & the entire film becomes pointless as it never happened.
Funny enough the powers we see have shown up in the comics, I think the cellophane S was new, but the super kiss & beams in the Silver Age.
Keep in mind that in the Silver Age, tiny versions of Superman would come out of his hands, so it got nuts.
We do see what the Phantom Zone looks like in Supergirl (1984)
The Donner Cut version of the identity reveal is a cool moment, however you have the added issue that somehow Superman can't feel a bullet hit him but he could feel a crowbar hit him. It doesn't make sense. In that case, while the Donner Cut version is cooler, the Lester Cut makes more sense. But in reality both are stupid because Lois is a well known writer & should've just been able to figure it out without circumstances like those.
The Paris scene I always felt like it was movie time. Basically while Lois is doing what we see her doing, that's happening at the same time as Clark discovering that Lois is there & changing into Superman. So while it is building tension, as soon as Superman leaves Lois is already under the elevator & he gets there in time. Also Paris & Metropolis being in the same time zone sticks out like a sore thumb.
Lois jumping out of the window is just stupidly on her part.
The Clark persona we see in the Reeve films was unique, it's not a comic book trait. It was something Christopher Reeve created to add to why people are fooled by the glasses. I think it's a poor choice, not that he's terrible but Clark bumbling around sticks out like a sore thumb. Clark as in the comics doesn't stick out. He's very much just another person. Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Henry Cavill, Tom Welling, Dean Cain all played Clark without the clumsiness & I felt were all better because of it. Even Tyler Hoechlin, who originally played Superman & Clark like Christopher Reeve changed his portrayal when he got his own show & is great.
The Donner Cut version of losing his powers is a better scene, as you stated it has nothing to do with sex. It's a rebellious moment for him because Jor El is telling him he can't have a relationship because he's meant for greater things. It's a moment where he goes against his father's wishes for his own needs. Which is diluted a bit because we already seen him do that in Superman: The Movie when he makes the choice to reverse time to save Lois.
With the Lester version he's basically just horny.
Again this is a story point I don't like in either version but I do think Donner handled it better. Smallville also used the idea that Clark gives up his powers to be with Lois and have kids on the Crisis on Infinite Earths saga on CW.
Since the Donner years we've seen Lois and Clark have children with Clark having powers. In fact even during this time Clark and Lois have had a child already in the comics Clark Kent Jr, so not sure why this was even a plot point.
Terrence Stanp is amazing, he's even great as the voice of Jor El in Smallville. I do prefer Michael Shannon in Man of Steel, simply because he has a more emotional journey through the film. Like Thanos or Magneto, you understand his mindset but he's just the villain so you have to be against him.
There was a Donner Cut scene that surprisingly didn't make it into the film & that's the child who's killed by Non.
Now why didn't Lois drive Clark back to the fortress? She just went back while he was freezing on foot?
There's no reason for Lex Luthor to know that Superman & Lois are a couple or have feelings. The only thing he knows is Lois interviewed Superman initially.
The fight is great, it's a funny fact if you watch this fight & the fight in Man of Steel, Superman causes more destruction here than in MOS.
Most of the destruction in MOS was caused by the World Engine & when Superman is fighting Zod he's trying to stay alive. He's literally never fought anyone before & just got his full powers whereas in Superman 2 he's been with his full powers for a while. I do suggest that you watch both fights back to back & you'll see Superman causes more destruction in Superman 2 than he does in MOS. I'm also not someone who even has a problem in either film because I am a fan of both & the eras in comics they are pulling from (mainly Golden Age, Post Crisis & New 52). Superman can't just lead Zod away in MOS as Zod made it clear he'll kill the humans because Superman chose Earth over his own kind. In Superman 2, Zod would've followed because he doesn't really care about the human beings until he notices that Superman cares AND when Superman does leave, they go back to threaten them, they don't even consider following Superman until Lex tells them he knows where they are, so essentially Superman leaves them to possibly be killed. Think about it. Zod tells them Superman fled & next time they seem him they'll kill him.
Superman saved the whole planet in MOS. And we did see him save people throughout the film, so not sure why so many fixate on just the fight at the end where he has little control over anything and is mostly on the defense.
Now Superman crushing Zods hand, I have no issue with but with all the "Superman is supposed to be perfect" crowd, it really makes me question why no one complains about him crushing his hand & throwing him to the wall? And in the Donner Cut Clark goes back to the diner to beat up the driver who now doesn't know him. Again, superheroes (only DC, Marvel can do anything) can't kill but they can torture.
Superman 2 The Donner Cut isn't as mind blowing as Zack Snyder's Justice League, but that's only because Donner couldn't finish it while Snyder did, but it is ultimately a better cut of the film tonally, even with their being a toilet in the fortress.
In the comics Superman went to another Earth, de powered Zod, Faora & a 3rd Kryptonian so they became human & than killed them because they threatened to find a way to his Earth & destroy it like they did theirs. Superman may 9 out of 10 times find another way, but there's always that once that he'll do something he normally doesn't do.
Great video guys, while I may disagree in areas it was great to watch.
MY SUPERMAN RANKINGS (The 1st 2 are equally great giving us a true to life Superman of the time)
Man of Steel
Superman: The Movie
BVS: Ultimate Edition
Superman 2 (both cuts)
ZSJL
Superman 3
Superman Returns
Superman 4
Cheers man, thanks so much for your thoughts. 👊 You clearly have spent a lot more time watching MoS than I have, so I'm not going to argue with you. That film is just not my jam, as the kids say. But again, thanks for commenting.
@prodigioussaps fair enough Superman has always been my favorite of the Trinity, so I do get passionate about the films.
Sorry for the long post, I commented as I watched.
No worries man! I see your passion and I admire it! That’s why we’re here 👊
Cliffs?
I definitely think you should watch & review III & IV.
Yes, please review Superman III, Supergirl, and Superman IV: TQFP. Great review guys!
Thanks! Cheers
Nothing looks cooler then reeve on the cover of superman 2
Great recap, but I think you missed the point with the diner scene. When Clark goes back to punish the dinner bully after regaining his powers, he didn't do it because he had been personally humiliated. He did it because the trucker had bulled a person -the fact that the person was himself is irrelevant. Imagine if the Clark had gone to the diner when he didn't have powers and he saw the trucker bullying some other guy and Clark knew he was powerless to stop him. Do you really think he wouldn't have avenged that person once he got his powers back?
The Lester Cut > The Donner Cut
y'all got to watch and review Superman III and IV. I will give Superman IV this credit for creating a villain that's not part of Superman's rogue gallery. I thought the costume and Nuclear man's theme music sounded so good. I have all of the Superman movies and would watch Superman III and 4 but not all the time. I love the theatrical cut of Superman 2 and like some stuff in Donner's Superman 2. I wish he had just worked on the first movie, finish it and then working on Superman 2.
Cool, yeah we definitely will. Should be interesting at least! I haven't seen 4 since it came out. Watched III dozens of time on cable TV when I was a teenager. It's funny watching it again now because all the Richard Pryor humor hits me and I'm like mannn I remember using that line!!
@@prodigioussaps am not sure if a lot of people knew this, years ago CW channel used to be the WB channel, they would show a lot of movies, I remember around October, they would have one week they would show Nightmare on Elm St movies and the next week they would show the halloween movies. They did the same thing for all of the Superman movies. Superman 3 and 4 had tv movies. What I mean by that is if you watch Superman 3, the how it started is completely different from the beginning of Superman 3 they have right now on streaming and Blu etc.
Oh really, what was different?
Yes, there were added scenes to pad the broadcast out so long to be able to include ad breaks. I recorded 3 in 1988 or something and that’s the version I grew up with. You can find a montage of the cut scenes in YT. I have no idea why the longer version wasn’t released on video or DVD but it doesn’t feel the same watching the cut version.
Ah thanks, I see - the opening credits aren't played over the goofy slapstick sequence.
I want a joke version where the lights go on in the fortress and the villains clothing changes to dress shirts and slacks.
I am literally astounded that you have not seen superman 3. You will probably see the shorter version with cut scenes.
42:29 I always wondered why Lois just stood by while superman decides to give up his powers. Why not intervene?
Also 19:56 I’m no physicist, but I think maybe the kryptonians are so heavy that with the low gravity of the moon they would walk pretty normally unaffected? We see in Supergirl that the guy can’t even pick her up, and Superman weighs 225 as revealed in 1.
Good point about Lois in that scene, I think maybe she was just speechless at what she was witnessing. She does reveal later that she’s basically just stunned that he gave up his powers for her.
Also good point about their weight! While we’re talking about this scene, I wonder has anyone come up with an explanation as to how they can speak in a vacuum…
@ Haha. There is no explanation for that one. But it happens again briefly in 4 as you’ll see. I’m still flabbergasted you haven’t seen the last 2. Like wow 😵💫
I enjoyed this vid, many good points that I had thought of but never heard discussed before. 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼(stayed up til 3am to watch)
Thanks so much! It’s Brendan that hasn’t seen III or IV yet, and yeah I was surprised to learn that myself. I haven’t seen Superman IV since it was in theaters, but it’s also been many many years since I’ve watched Superman III all the way through. I watched it on cable TV dozens of times when I was a teenager.
@@prodigioussaps It always bothered me that Lois seems so nonchalant about Superman denouncing his Kryptonian heritage, too - not even a step forward and cry "no!"
Wouldn't they be lighter on the moon ..just as we are? now I am confused.
It's seems an accepted convention in Superman that Kryptonians can speak in a vacuum. I've seen it in recent iterations also. Superman and Lois in the second season. Superman speaks to his brother, Tal-Rho when they reach the sun. Lois and Clark, he speaks to his clone in space. They shouldn't be able to breathe in a vacuum, either. (Lois and Clark mentions he has to hold his breath but then totally forgets in in other episodes.) Superman has never been a hard-science fiction story - it's like the pulp fiction of the 1920s and 30s or even earlier - science-fantasy?
I can go with the multiple Superman’s in the fortress as I just see it as some tech that Jor El made in the fortress. After all he can project himself as a hologram so why couldn’t Kal be able to utilise similar technology?
I definitely prefer the Theatrical cut over the Donner Cut but really there’s a great version of Superman II if they combined elements of both as I feel the Brando scenes would elevate the film.
Lastly the kiss, it’s silly but it does bizarrely have comic origins.
Sorry reacting as I’m watching
The artic police scene is deleted therefore isn’t canon. It’s not in either cut, the Donner Cut features it as a deleted scene on the disc but not as part of the movie. The only version it exists in is the Restored International Cut.
I don’t really see an issue with the way Zack Snyder did things. It’s just a different approach, his is how would this go down in the real world? And buildings would certainly get absolutely demolished. I can understand if it’s not for you but it’s a perfectly valid interpretation and shouldn’t be mocked for doing it differently imo.
Also the kiss from Man of Steel always gets brought up but again I don’t see an issue with it. They’ve just been through hell together and it’s a moment of relief for them. It’s much worse in Aquaman when Arthur kisses Mera amongst all the killing happening right as they’re locking lips. Yet nobody ever brings that up.
Yeah, to be clear I personally don't WANT the Arctic Patrol scene to be canon, because the idea that the Fortress is easily accessible to anyone other than Superman is very silly.
However I don't consider Zod's death to be canon, BUT at the same time I also don't consider his survival to be canon... because we don't really see either result. It's kinda like Schrödinger's Zod. I prefer the latter because that's how it was scripted, but ultimately nobody's wrong or right on that score, IMO.
Sorry if our MoS takes offend you... we're just being honest! If we think something's stupid or bad we're not going to pull punches. We poke an almost equal amount of jabs at movies we love, as well. Keep in mind nothing we say is ever meant to be a reflection on your tastes or your fandom.
@ Schrödingers Zod I like that 😂
I don’t have issues with people disliking stuff I like. Or poking fun at, heck I poke fun at stuff I like. It’s when the validity of it something isn’t accepted that I take issue. Not that you were doing that.
Cheers Bob, glad to have you here 👊
IMO the biggest issue is that they decided to make this a two movie story. They should of just been stand alone. For one everything feels rushed.
Continuity issues are everywhere.
1. Why is Luthor serving 25 to life without a trial?
2. In Donners version the 3 criminals escape WHILE Superman is saving California.
I could write an essay on how much this story makes no sense. I just feel that love connection happens way too soon. Especially with him giving up his powers. It's too fast.
When you're dealing with Reeve and Kidder I agree. When you're dealing with Brando and Hackman, time is alot of money.
@henrywallacesghost5883 agree. And this was also a time before
Sequels were common place, and Franchises virtually unheard of. Sequels usually cost more too. My thought was just go in a different direction. Not necessarily tie Superman 2 into the 1st movie. As it worked out neither Hackman nor Brando did any work for Lester and Brando was cut completely. Superman the Movie was such a big success and made a ton of money. About 1.3 billion today and that's with about 2000 less screens available. So I'm sure everybody deserves a raise. To me the 2 movies just seem rushed. They didn't come out back to back. At least Lester's version has a probable time jump from the end of Superman 1. Donner cut is immediately after . Which leads to many plot holes, and inconsistencies. But thats the Salkinds. Notoriously cheap.
About the three kryptonians, I would connect that with what they show on Smallville series, although there's a big time difference. In smallville the type of encasement those three are in seem to be some sort of "waiting hall" to later get to the Phantom Zone, so if this is the case they never get to the Phantom Zone in the Donnerverse, instead they are trapped in this "no mans land" encasement. I take it that with the destruction of Krypton the order of the transition from the encasement to the Phantom Zone never came to be.
So to clarify... is The Phantom Zone supposed to be a destination they were banished to by Jorel, and never arrived at; OR is it simply that thin square they were entrapped in, or was that only the vessel, and NOT the actual Phantom Zone as such...? Me still trying to learn stuff at 54 lol...
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Accourding to Smallville, that thin square is the vessel and from there they had to go to that entire dimension that is the Phantom Zone, but they remained in the square instead. Phantom Zone, at least in Smallville looks like some sort of wasteland filled with planes and small hills, were you get to meet all the people felt there befora, as aging doesn't happen in that dimension.
@@AXSLA3 Excellent; thanks for prompt reply here!
@@AndrewDyson-u2u And this is to complete it, but this is my guessing only: I think this devioce need to have a point of origin and a destination point to act correctly. In a Smallville episode two soldier of Zod trap Clark in this square, with Earth as origin point and the Phantom Zone as destination. At the end of that episode, Clark is trapped in that square, but at the beggining of the next one, its floor opens and he falls to an arid terrain. The three evil Kryptonians from Superman II are sent from Krypton to the Phantom Zone, but by the time that floor has to open Krypton is no more, so the process gets interrupted. This is just my guessing, but I think it fits with the story.
@@AXSLA3 Smallville was another series I wanted to see, but haven't found the time...
I think you should review Superman 3. It's worth checking out and despite the critics trashing it the way they did, they didn't give it a fair shot, all because it wasn't viewed as strong as the previous two films. That said, the comedy element does dominate the storyline, due to the Richard Pryor character being a computer hacker. However there are some good strong, dark moments in the film that I feel do not get the respect they deserve, such as Superman's fight with his "evil" self in the auto graveyard. I won't spoil it, but you'll see how he manages to overcome this entity and complete his mission. I saw Superman 3 when it came out and I was six years old and thought it was really cool. Over time, I've noticed what scenes work and the ones that do not. to push the plot forward and could have been omitted.
We definitely will, aiming to get the review recorded this week. Cheers 👊
I'd like if WB could release a remaster of the international cut, much as they did with the first movie.
4K the extended Superman II International TV cut, you WB assholes! We've waited long enough; what's the freakin' holdup?!
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Even 2K would be plenty enough for me.
@@fnjesusfreak 100%; a remastering of sorts; anything better than these grainy 4:3 ratio VHS dregs we have been left with...
@@AndrewDyson-u2u Some time ago I tried to reconstruct as much of the RIC as I could...then I think I ran out of hard drive :/
@@fnjesusfreak "ran out of hard drive..." yeah tell me about it! I might have to invest in an 8TB seagate in 2025
TV version shows the villains being arrested by the police
4K the extended Superman II International TV cut, you WB assholes! Enough already!