Showing my age here but OG Invoker came out when I was in high school. Before dota 2. I had a printed-out page with all his spells . he had far more than 10
decided not only by which orbs you are using, but also by their orders... so exactly like it is in dota 2? He has 10 spells only because they left only 3 at each starter (q/w/e) + qwe as it easy to remember and use without having to make a character with 30 own spells as it's hard and op to both use and fight against. Invoker was always about order of his orbs.
@@zloybojok Not exactly, order matter means that qww ≠ wqw ≠ wwq, each of them would result in a different spell. In modern Invoker - all three of them would result in Tornado.
Invoker is peak design An awesome hero that is only overpowered if you have the adequate skill and top awareness...which means absolute rewarding game play.
I wish more heroes were high skill (mechanical, awareness, etc.) = high reward. More often than not mechanical skills are not enough... a braindead bristleback can own a game by essentially doing the same thing over and over, spam quills OR a braindead huskar almost always win lanes by default cause attack modifiers not pulling aggro...🤬
I mean, the higher the MMR, the more ppl know how to counter them. People just don't want to buy various items that are mostly going against their main build.
@@luishurtado2170 90% of dota heroes are braindead easy to play compared to the hardest 10%. Huskar and Bristle also are lane dominators but scale to a pile of crap with the same item that your pos1 should get asap
I think the beauty of invoker is that the mechanical act of queueing the orbs correctly and the encyclopedic knowledge required to know the combinations by heart to play him effectively alligns pretty much with the imagined feeling of being a battle mage. It's grounded in a way that is very rewarding and rewards good flow wth satisfying loops.
@@emmandiaz3495 Honestly, go for it. You don't have to use all 10 spells, so get comfortable with a couple of combos and you're good. You prepare Tornado (WWQ) into Meteor (EEW). Start the fight with Tornado, then you hit QWER to swap Tornado for Deafening Blast. Then you cast Meteor on the people about to land and Deafening Blast once they hit the ground so they are pushed with the meteor. If you want to expand from there, You can use Cold Snap(QQQ) to lock down a support or anyone without a BKB or you can use EMP (WWW) to force the enemy to disengage. That's already 5 spells you learned to use during teamfights that don't require that much input, since Deafening Blast, Cold Snap and EMP are pretty easy to input, and you have your combo starters already invoked (with Tornado being invoked first so it's swapped out first). You don't need to think much about Ice Wall (QQE), Alacrity (WWE) , Forged Spirits (QEE), Ghost Walk (QQW) or Sun Strike (EEE) early on. Just get comfortable with the first 5. Once you learn those, you add in another one (recommend learning Ghost Walk then because it's a life saver) until you get all of them
About gameplay design, I've never played Hwei so I can't talk about him but playing invoker surely feels like you always have the right tools for the job, the soft counter for every hero part couldn't be more true. He's not limitless but I do get carried away by his arrogance when I'm doing well with him. They got that arrogant personality in him completely right. I feel that I can always have a spell in my arsenal to overpower other inferior minds- I mean, other players XD
In reality, usually 10 seconds after the fight you realize you forgot to use something with invoker. Be it spells or it items, there's always something - this is coming from a Magicka player btw. God help you if you play refresher Invoker.
hwei is like, invoker for newbies, his kit are easy to understand. i tried invoker back then and it hurts my head. on top of that, i tried playing him on both OG DoTA all stars and DoTA 2. invoker is way more painful in OG DoTA due to the how awkward his skill hotkets are. that wasnt present in DoTA 2 but he is still hard to play and i mostly manage to cast 2 spells, the meteor and the silence wave thingy ;-;
Hwei difficulty is overrated compared to other champions. He's really easy compared to the average Riven combos, which requires animation cancels. All his damage spells have different uses (QQ for poke, QW for long range that deals more damage to CC'd/Isolated targets (EW will be your best friend if you want to hit this spell) and QE is for waveclear, so you can gain lane priority. Utility spells are situational, WQ is for gank setup/getting back to lane faster, WW is for shielding (which is barely any useful and very hard to find a situation where it can be useful) and WE is for more passives procs + Mana because he gets OOMed really fast before first item. For CC, EQ is a gtfo card against assasins, EW is for zoning or setting up QW, and EE is for teamfights or if you suck at the game and you can only do QW + EE Hwei is just Invoker if he wasn't Aphelios, which has 5 separate guns (like the orbs Invoker has), each having their own synergies, as you can carry 2 of them at once. All of them have a specific ammo count, putting the gun in the back of the rotation of the guns and getting the next one. In conclusion, imagine Invoker if he had 5 orbs, 2 slots for each combo cast, and can carry 2 at the time. In my opinion, Invoker is still king of difficulty and Aphelios/Hwei are nothing compared to Invoker
@@i_saidmeow2469 i have 500 games on invoker i needed the first 100 to fast cast abilities the other 100 to understand good when and where to use those abilites, i played hwei i needed 2 games to learn spells and undertand when and where use them XD
@@rskrzz6233 you are just spamming QWE orbs out of habit because we both know Tinker or any mildly micro intensive hero has at least 10x actions per minute thanInvoker has.
Being GOOD at Invoker is dishing a lot of spells in quick succession. Being GREAT at Invoker is by knowing when to use your spells at the perfect moment. You summed everything up in the video and managed to tell everyone what Invoker truly is, a Jack of all Trades.
I think what sets apart good invoker is they can play the hero how the game demands it. You can be a sneaky assassin with orchid and ghost walk terrorising the enemy. Or you can be the ultimate team fighter, going for scaling instead of orchid. A hero that is truly dependent mostly on levels rather than items. Also some of the absolute best invoker use only 20% of his kit most of the time. Because they use his kit like a scalpel, rather than just key smashing and hoping for the best.
What i think makes hwei feel like imposter is that his "versatility" stems from artificial restrictions. You are just choosing which restriction to your ability is the least detrimental. Where as with invoker, his restrictions come from his versatility and not being able to choose everything. Hwei's design feels subtractive, Invoker's feels additive.
Hwei versatility is simplified to, you have 10 options where others have 4. Invoker has more, at the cost of a steep skill floor. Hwei's is simplified thus being versatile to player satisfaction, no restrictions. I thought the title was going to slander Hwei, but I only saw the clickbait. I think this is the dota area, circle, where ppl can freely say their strengths to yes men. Ah the ending is slanderous, my gloves come off. This is the circle jerk dota creator, for purpose of this video, he is supposed to be a Dota engagement bait.
@@IPromiseTomorrowYeah dude just bait 😅 thought it was a video showing how different is one from the other but half the way his just slandering lost all of his points on it yeah they're different one was created a few months ago while the other was created on a mod from warcraft also OG invoker has 27 combo valve just needed to pick which spells invoker needed 😅 LoL whole script on hwei is a magical painter so they need to take or make a few abilities from others to make a new one his combo feels overwhelming but playing him it's really not compare to invoker and I played Dota 1 for years so can can say the two are different invoker can be a master piece for people that likes his play style but comparing him to hwei is not great point just cause they have close to the same count as abilities one is a utility/situation mage while the other is just a artillery mage that spams colors at you from range hwei is closely similar play style as Lina or Zeus I know Zeus is a like karthus and Viktor cause his ult and scepter ability but Zeus is a freaking range spammer.
Fun fact: Invoker was a Magus by the title Arsenal Magus. Rubick, the Grand Magus, comments on it when they meet in lane on the same team by saying "Invoker now, eh? No longer the Arsenal Magus?" I also remember seeing somewhere that Invoker was the only Magus that didn't care when Rubick threatened to kill a Magus and maybe he was the intended target of the threat.
Iv played both but play more league. I really find invoker a much better design n every level. Firstly hwei has a visual design problem. All of his spells are paint. It doesn’t look skillful, it looks like a maniac splattering pain everywhere. He doesn’t paint a mouth to bite you or a meteor or anything, it’s all just splattering paint. It also means many of his abilities look the same. Whilst all of invokers abilities are very different and you can tell what’s being used. Even though dota champions lore by design are paper thin.. (Correct choice) I still find invoker more compelling. Arrogant obsessed wizard is better than sensitive twink.
Dota Lore is strange yet great in its own way. The game takes place in a universe where the Ancients rewind time after each match to avoid being the loser. That means that all Dota games are canon. This also means that all cosmetic items are canon. In one reality, Drow was Luna's nemesis, killing and skinning her ride to make her garments. In another one, Invoker was an obsessed father who destroyed the universe to save his daughter. Some heroes and items have this aspect of lore tailored into them, such as Spectre and CK, who summoned themselves from another reality to battle, or PA's Arcana lore, which resulted in Spectre creation. This means everything in the game is canon, spanning all patches since the game's creation, all matches, all cosmetics, and every iteration of every hero, which is terrific.
@@XoLiTlz the ultimate multiverse is the granad scheme, the minor scheme is every hero have their own story and their own connection to one another, which making this game have very very vast story
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Did you play LoL before 2016, buddy? Back then, the game didn’t even have a proper storyline or lore system. Even later, many heroes in LoL had to get their backstories rewritten to fit the game’s lore and avoid plot holes. Meanwhile, Valve has been building a complete lore system for Dota 2 since 2011, and to this day, not a single hero has had their biography replaced like LoL’s characters. In Dota 2, there’s a dynamic dialogue system where heroes exchange banter when they encounter each other, depending on the situation in the game. This helps players understand the backstory without requiring too much explanation, something Riot has been trying to emulate. Although Riot hasn’t been able to create such a vast and flexible dialogue system like Valve’s, they have implemented a similar feature where heroes confront and exchange lines with each other. Personally, I don’t like the lore of fantasy games because, to me, it feels over-the-top and exaggerated compared to reality. But to claim that Dota 2’s lore is “thin” is downright ridiculous, at least when compared to LoL. Creating a fictional world with many characters isn’t difficult, but connecting them in a logically cohesive way is the real challenge. Riot’s writing team is honestly quite weak, which is why so many characters have had their backstories rewritten.
Dota lore was thin because it doesn't originally exist. Dota was a mod from Warcraft 3, so their original form was highly tied to that of their old models and forms, which, after dota 2, they can't fully reuse it because of copyright problems. Juggernaut, axe was originally one race. Troll warlord (jahrakal) and dazzle, was of the troll race. There were so many lores tied to their origin, all lost in transition
I'd say I'm doing well in my bracket. probably 6 out of the match 10 match i dominate my lane, 3 match where it's even-ish, 1 match where i got dominated on my lane. it's easy to win your lane when you have gold/item advantage because you're hitting your Sunstrikes. also, I barely know how well people are playing him in my bracket because i almost always pick him lmao.
@@luccavalentinw.fiorini2302 hi, here main invoker 500 games ahahaah the only problem is that to learn how to play it very good i needed 150 games and of those about 120 were lost so my wi nrate is something like 50.5% XD
OG invoker was made by Guinsoo. The guy behind League. He was broken af at launch with 20+ permutative spells. Icefrog balanced it to what it is known today. Guinsoo literally told heroes like Invoker were a knowledge barrier and therefore wouldn't be in league but here we are today.
He has a point tho. Character being heavy on knowledge checks doesn't make him cool or interesting (remember that rewarding knowledge =/= rewarding skill). It's good to see he learned his lesson
@@TrollFaceLaunch0 I clearly remember the blog post about 'the burden of knowledge' (the exact term they used) from them -Riot; and it had no single reason to exist. They literally declared themselves as puss*es looking for a casual audience and not looking into complicating things just a little because that's what brings money for them. So I don't know what lesson are you talking about.
Not only you have 10 different spells to use but you also want to juggle your orbs effectively. Want to ego fight a carry hero? Use 3 exort to out damage them you need a bit more attack speed? Use 3 wex. maybe you want to balance your dmg and atk speed? How about 2 exort and 1 wex. Want to heal up fast to join the fight again? Use quas. You want to regen while dealing dmg? Use 2 quas and 1 exort. Plus dont forget that most of invoker's item builds are active. Blink dagger, shiva's guard, boots of travel/power threads, eul's scepter, force staff, and many more. You can build him as a support like topson did, or you can build him like a carry/mage build like miracle does or maybe you wanna build it like a mid that can always be around the map like how w33 does.
It's a cool comparison because invoker doesn't have skills that are similar to other heroes in DotA while with Hwei you can clearly see similarities from other champs
QQQ= Enigma Malefice QQW= any invis QQE= Jakiro's Q and E WWW=any illusion hero with diffusal WWE= Bloodlust from Ogre WWQ= Euls or any setup disable EEE= skillshot zeus ult EEQ = Beastmaster's summons, or Visage's EEW= any AoE ult like Jakiro''s QWE= Huskar's Q ability
@@doriangrayest QQW invisible and healing, before inv movebonus and aura slow the enemy, cold wall is more Treant grasp or Brood aghanim. Copy of Huskar Invoker has defensive blast since dota 1, huskar has healing, burning spear and damage and attack speed for life lost a few years ago, only a few years ago he changed his healing to be together with his passive and changed the first for inner fire.
@@MrNatsuDragneel No invoker uses Ghost Walk for healing, just use Quas orbs. The ms bonus is cool but the aura, in my opinion, is just a Dust alarm for the enemy team, a huge troll. Ice wall is better than both skills but specially the garbage brood aghs. And I know the history of Huskar. As a meepo spammer, deafening blast was a huge problem if I didnt win early because the disable was very long and I just couldnt believe Huskar got lvl 25 Talent Boosted DeafBlast for free by lvl 7. (then meepo got all his braindead broken aghanim shard and scepter and life was easy again)
@@doriangrayest qqw is actually used to regain mana and hp, i assume you either dont play dota or are slow(quas orbs don't regen shit for almost half a year already) qqe is definetly not jakiro q and e because 1) it is an object on map, not a projectile 2) it lasts for 12 SECONDS!!! 3) it serves a different purpouse. You can kinda compare it to new jakiro's aghanim but it came out 10 years later than invoker's wall www is not the diffusal, it takes 30 over 50 hits from 1 illusion to 1 hero(5 hits each to each hero if you have 10 illusions) to burn the same amount that emp burns in it's range to everyone, and it also pulls the enemy in with shard making it also a control spell eee serves different purpouse, unlike zeus ult that gives out every players position and is used to get map control and used to have a guaranteed kill on low hp unless they have magic damage shield like glimmer enemy sunstrike cant kill a person without info about their position, cant be beaten by invisibility, is a skillshot(not the only difference huh?) qwe is not huskars ability for over half a year, again you are very slow which is ok for low mmr player so there you have it, you are completly wrong on 4/9 spells and kinda wrong on 2 more spells, wwe also gives damage which is crucial for many interactions and you provided bad analogy with jakiro q and e although he has ability that is kinda sililar to slow wall with aghanim. Also eew is not a aoe ability but a nuke more like a puck's orb but there are really similar alternatives so i wont count it as being incorrect. Do better.
I used to have trouble to memorize them but Icefrog actually a genius : Forge spirit : 2 fire 1 ice because even they are mostly fire, they are still creature which made from water (liquid or whatever) Ice wall : 2 ice 1 fire. It look like mountain and every icy mountain (probably) have lava (fire) inside etc
yeah but in my mind fire = dmg ice = int and slow cause ice itself so forge spirit is dmging creature with intellect and ice wall is slowing and damaging wall so it make sense itself
Fire=damage Ice= CC or have form (physical body) Storm=AOE or buff Fire fire fire = sun strike= do damage Fire fire ice = Ice wall = a form of ice that can slow and do damage Fire fire storm = meteor = aoe fire damage Ice ice ice = cold snap = cc Ice ice fire = forge spirit = damage unit Ice ice storm = ghost walk = buff that can slow and invis Storm storm storm = EMP = AOE Storm strom ice = tornado = AOE cc Storm storm fire = Alacrity = damage buff Ice storm fire = Deaf. Blast = AOE damage disarm
if you draw a circle, 3 orbs around, you can pretty much see his every spells. connect the 3 ords toward center(qwe), connect 2 orbs 2 lines for orb1(qqw, qqe, wwq, wwe, eeq, eew), draw 3 lines in each orb outwards(qqq, www, eee)
IMO classic composers are more related to micro intensive heroes, specially if they have different roles, like Brewmaster ult or Chen's creeps and require a lot of rehearsal and prep time but is worth it Invoker would be a classic instrument musician, perfecting his repetetitive repertoire to perfection, like Tinker or some really farm intensive pos1 with their timings While Rubick and Morphling are jazz musicians that need to know how to improvise in any situation on the spot
Great video! One thing you could add is also how Invoker's autoattacks are a core part of his "arsenal." In League, Hwei is classified as an artillery mage like Xerath, thus he's commonly played as a backline spell bot and his job is to just chuck spells behind his frontliner. You pretty much never need to autoattack as Hwei outside of the lane or farming as this would also expose you and your squishy self. In a low TTK game like League, this is the way to play Hwei optimally--and can be kind of boring to some people. And when your spells are on cooldown, you just wait for them to come back online and spam buy Ability Haste. In contrast, Invoker loses out on a lot of damage if he doesn't incorporate autoattacks. He is a universal hero and one of his facets does nothing but improve his autos. Even before these changes were implemented, triple exort Invoker would still hit surprisingly hard for a mage. And when your spells are on cooldown, you can still throw hands and put out decent damage. It really just adds to the idea that Invoker needs to use everything at his disposal to be able to push this hero to his limit.
well, thats just false :D AA are a huge part of hweis kit thanks to his W-E. it's not only a tool to get the mana back, but also used to get ur passive onto the enemy. if you weave your AA correctly with ult, q and e you can procc hweis passive up to 3 times in one rotation on one target, instead of once, which you would get from only using spells. Thats one of the reasons why hwei consistently becomes quite oppressive at higher mmr in the hands of otps, while in lower elo it is often a coinflip between feast and famine.
@@ederofempires8793 All of your abilities on Hwei have longer cast range than your AA, you should absolutely not get in AA range after laning phase unless you are already jumped on and want to utilize the extra passive proc in hopes of killing the enemy before they get to kill you.
@@abdush3268 Hwei is not meant to go toe to toe and chase people. Hwei thrives on being the one chased, Similar to Xayah, thats why he has movement and AA-amplify spells on him His optimal condition is having beefcake tanks peeling for him as you slowly back away while slinging spells (making you quite in-range to hit his autos as well) Again, similar to Xayah
Its not just invoker's arsenal, riot also doesnt understand what make rubick's spell/skill mimicry works. Sylas is so strong and loaded by himself that counterpicking with a team comp with weak ultimate abilities barely make a difference for sylas. And since he only steals the ultimate ability he doesnt need any skill to time when he is about to rob your ultimate like rubick needs to wait for you to use an useful skill for him to copy and then be fast enough to copy you before you use something else.
Another of Rubick's main features is that he uses YOUR abilities better than you. He has an almost instant cast animation for any ability (for example, Earthshaker's Fissure has a 0.69 second cast time, imagine that with 0.1), as well as a passive that increases damage and cast range.
Stumbled upon this video thanks to the algo. I have been playing Dota since WC3 days and LoL for a brief period from 2013 to 2016. I can say that the kind of players Dota and League attracts are two absolutely different types. I would say that League is way more "family friendly" by design, even now watching current League content I can see that their DNA is to make characters as easy to digest as possible. Dota on the other hand, does not give you training wheels. Similar to learning programming, you have to learn so many concepts and the initial early player experience can be quite overwhelming. But it is definitely a lot more rewarding and I still will deviate to Dota every time as you're rewarded for learning game mechanics and putting in time to get good at it. You can see the sheer skill difference between different ranks purely on how higher ranked players understand more and more of the game's concept better. (SEA servers are still full of trash though haha) I think the design of Dota to sum it up is "if everything is overpowered, then everything is balanced" whereas League's design is leaning more towards "every character needs to fit their archetype in order for us to balance the game". Hence why Hwei is design to be a generic mage and Invoker even though he is a POS 2, can be played as POS 1 to 5 even in Pro Tourneys. Good video nonetheless.
8:10 Yep,when they tried to create a master piece that doesn't play it safe, not mediocre, not average. You'll get K'sante that ruins the game. Truly the best experience
Answering your question about design: You chose Hwei if you daydream about "hot" characters from video games. I hate the constant appeal to cuteness and sexyness and whatever in the art industry but I do get why they keep doing it, because people like it. I have a bunch of friends who play a certain character because they look cute or hot or how they would marry them or whatever. Like "I wouldn't play Malphite because he is ugly". M'dude, that mf is a rock. In my opinion, Grimstroke has way better design, but I try not to judge people who like other designs because of cuteness and stuff.
The reason Invoker is designed so well is because he used to have 27 spells meaning when the spell count was reduced to 10 the 10 spells which where kept where the best and had the best synergied and most uniqueness and usefulness.
100% Agree. Games made by fans tend to hit the mark more. As gamers, the DOTA devs know what gamers want. As corporate clowns, the LOL devs know jack squat.
Some champs are better than others when it comes to having a cohesive idea. But given the far more accessible way league plays, it's actually suprising how much each champs kits match to the lore and idea of the champ. There is artistic integrity in the base champ design and gameplay idea synchronicity. However, the gameplay itself is aggrovatingly stilted, with simple champs and difficult champs almost randomly being strong. You could play the most technical champ the most impressive way, and still lose, and play the easiest champ the least skillful way and win, just as much as you could just learn one combo on Hwei, win lane, and snowball you lead to a win, and just as much play Yuumi and win based on the design of the champ. The champs themselves are very well designed, but the game they're in is very unreliable and lame most of the time.
@pitchblack2744 That is something I didn't paid close attention to. That's a very good point that you bring up. can't confirm that if its true or not but ML does have something of a similar problem.
I have 8000 hours in dota and I was very disappointed with the release of Hwei. I thought he was like an invoker in the league, but he didn't live up to my expectations.
Plus you need to time it depending on the skill lvl.. the "lift time" changes, so you need to keep up with it to avoid missing skills xD sometimes you need to invert the skill order to hit them! (like EMP first, tornado later.. in late game is always tornado first, EMP later.. sunstrike is the same, early game you can miss the combo if using tornado first.. the enemy drops very fast and can dodge your sunstrike) so yeah, invoker is hard to master but veeeeery rewarding
Well edited, great pacing, thoroughly and clearly explained. You make it seem so obvious now (not that I play League or Hwei tbf). This was a great video.
Not just that invoker has 10 skills, but if you also bought 6 items with each of them having active effects, with additional aghanims and shard, it is really a chaos
Nothing quite matches the feeling of ripping off a huge epic combo with a tornado, flaming meatballs, an EMP blast, an orbital laser, a wall of ice, and an omnidirectional shockwave...then mashing Refresher Orb to do it again.
The feeling of finally doing it in one fluid motion is quite rewarding. i have seen people in pubs spending hours in training mode just to be able to do the 3 or 4 spell combo only to completely lose composure in the actual game. Invoker is a hero for a player who is either truly talented or a pure sweatlord.
Dota players : invokers is a masterpiece and league is not good. league player: i don't think about you ever.
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Of course, because when you play Dota, you actually have to use your brain-something LoL players don’t need as much. So, it makes sense that LoL players never think about Dota 🤣.
The thing that i love of the main honor tittle of Invoker is "The arsenal mage" and they give him the love he show in game, love dota, miss my home, no computer for the moment
I studied invoker spells back in highschool, with a paper and a pen. Yes his spells creates a pattern that looked like witchcraft circle. If you draw a circle, 3 orbs around, you can pretty much see his every spells. Connect the 3 ords toward center(qwe), connect 2 orbs 2 lines for orb1(qqw, qqe, wwq, wwe, eeq, eew), draw 3 lines in each orb outwards(qqq, www, eee)
Honestly invoker is a hero that when played right can be played anywhere and can carry from any position. The scariest thing about him is his versatility and unpredictable play depending on who plays him.
i saw a video comparing hwei's abilities to other champions' skills. his kit is basically a compilation of other skills with paint aesthetics. he even has sett's pull ability, he can just use it from a longer range. EDIT: 7:34 i think they designed him to be a pretty boy considering that MOST of the recent skins released by this company are pretty, e-boy/e-girl, sexy designs.
As a dota player who playes league occasionally i really love Hweis design, as its a bit simpler to understand but has really cool mechanics you can use, that come with experience. Same goes for invoker of course, but i dont think that Hwei is badly designed.
LoL player here, Invoker is for sure an insane design and it has a lot of subtilities but the thing with hwei is just how league works, his gimmick is the 3 different abilities in each key, it would be crazy if he could cast 10 abilities. Also, the mana regen on w is bc his abilities require a huge mana amount, so you would run out of mana in every rotation for probably 10 minutes every game.
@@gabrielnovais871and all they needed to do was instead of splashing paint, had like painted images of his spells subject matter appearing in his casts to make him interesting but it’s easier to just splash particle effects and call it a day
@@gabrielnovais871Very much subjective, he also doesn't really lack personality, he's the loner cute artist archetype whose parents were murdered by Jhin and because of that, he thinks of Jhin as the one who opened his eyes to all the colours of the world (he still hates Jhin though, but respects what he does).
dont forget those orbs skills they are not just to cast invoke for spells, every orbs combination has its bonus stats for normal attacks, basically its like power treads
Invoker is the mechanical masterpiece and maybe the hardest hero to play in any moba because we need to add the fact that invoker also uses items and has new combo with some of them. Scepter and shard change his abilities, scythe of vyse, eul scepter, etherial blade, blink dagger, so many items that make Invo even harder. Fun to play and overpowered af when it's on the right hands
playing invoker is like harmony every instrument(spells) are decent., but if you put them on top of each other they make more than sum of their value. simply mixing 2 instruments is good, but you can also make quartet or huge orchestra but this imposter’s spells are just the sum of their value and it’s not even unique. what a joke there are huge amount of more possibility if you put some items, which league don’t have my last league game was years ago but im sure they don’t have items like blink or eul(don’t even talk about hourglass) or e-blade or refresher
I would add, that actually all of incoker spells besides ghost walk deals damage, just low amount of it. So when you deal the damage you also need to use every spell (in many situations) but you make youself exposed while them on cooldown so you can also think about spell economy in exchange for damage
You sound very pinoy. Greetings from Malaysia. When you talk about small counters against heroes, you can add that cold snap interrupts hero such as Earthshaker who has awful casting animation. EMP drains Medusa's Mana Shield. Ice Wall and Forged Spirit depletes Templar Assassin's Refraction quickly. Tornado dispels enemies too, for example Windrunner's Windrun and Scurry of Hoodwink. You also should mention Catacalysm which is the highest damage single cast spell in DotA, higher than Thundergod's Wrath I believe.
Just 10 spell already OP bro. Before I stop play Dota 2, I used to cast 5-6 spell at once. For me its basic combo. Tornado -> EMP -> Meatball (Chaos Meteor) -> Deafening Blast -> Force staff (self)-> Ice Wall -> Sunstrike. To me, thats basic combo. All my friend can cast more but for me just average player. Stop play Dota 2 cause a lot of changes in the game like talent tree (correct if Im wrong) and Invoker nerf. Nowadays see a lot player need to use refresher orb just make do damage to enemy. well good old days. BTW thanks for video
I played invoker back in wc3 dota. Although i wasn't very good at the game, I still remember the first time I landed a tornado meteor defeaning blast combo and one-shotting someone, so satisfying.
Invoker went through a lot of iterations since he was released in dota 1, then to dota 2. I still remember that you can only use your spells after you hit lvl 6, because you need to be lvl 6 to lvl up invoke spell, and you can't cast spells without invoke so u can only lvl up ur orbs in the first 8-10 mins. of the game, then they change it so you can lvl up invoke when you are lvl 1 or 2?, then they change it again so that you already have invoke when you start the game and you just need to worry about what 2 combination of orbs are you going to build in early games....Since Hwei is a new hero they can change his spell mechanics or revamp his spells if they want him to be a viable hero in game, they can test or have as many iterations so that it will be a unique but playable hero,
Invoker originally had 27 spells, some strong as hell, some useless than useless. Instead of the now QWE, WQE, EQW= Deafening Blast, before each of those orb placements have a different spell related to it. So they made it easier to combine the spells, as well as mentioning it in the lore where Invoker uses an incantation to forget most of the useless spells he has, which leaves to the 10 we have now
Wait so you think you can't combo those 4 abilities like Ivoker can? I would argue Hwei has even more utility than ivoker for example: 1. Team chasing down an enemy WQ 2. Teammate getting chased QE/WQ or WW/EW 3. Warwick has ulted someone EQ 4. If you want make sure your ult hits multiple people you can combo it with EE/EW 5. Maybe you are play with an Amumu you can wait until he ults then R and EE/EW to make sure they all get hit 6. His QQ is made for hitting people that are full HP or Tanks %max hp 7. His QW is made for executing low health champs 10-15% or below %missing HP 8. Nunu is casting ult and you want to cancel it EQ/EE 9. Running out of mana is a very common occurrence in league so WE is very useful 10. WW is very useful if your allies are getting hit with burns or they are getting combo'd by the enemy team because it provides more shield the longer you stand in it. Hwei is a very usuful champ and he has many uses but similar to invoker he requires a lot of play time and game knowledge.
I have 1000 games on Invoker and memorized even the lift time of Tornado basing on his Quas' level. I have played many other games but nothing comes close to the always-thinking playstyle approach of Invoker and how versatile he is.
I rarely played Invoker. And when I do, my fingers decides to have stroke individually. The LoL version just gives you 3 sets of skills with 3 individual skills but with Invoker you have 3 skills that you can used to make combinations to "invoke" a skill. it may sound easy but it is frustrating if you cant get the timing. there's also changes in stats according to what "orb" is being used and the lvl of the "orb", the damage, duration, cd also changes according to the lvl, then there's aghs and shard and talent tree. Invoker is mental. A really good hero and also a frustrating one.
I remember when Invoker was released in dota1 and we are mind blown coz how awesome he was designed, a hero with lots of abilities but you have to mix your orbs first and you have to remember each ability's orb combinations 😂 In wc3 dota1, his model is the hero called Blood Mage/Kael'thas Sunstrider using a custom skin
I think the equivalent of Invoker for me is Ryze before the multiple reworks, he had tons of combo and versatility with his abilities, but was nerfed to death due to one pro player spamming him in competitions.
@@HighLanderPonyYT To be fair, BKB had a long cooldown while Force Staff is just stupidly good since the cooldown is 19 sec. AND if more than one hero has it, they can just chain it to get allies far away.
@@NormalHatter thats why people just play autoattack invoker :) especially since he's universal now and gets insane amount of stats from manta style XDXD
The thing i see with league is that it mostly consist of [Area damaging skills, slows, dashes, enhanced attack for damage], and YES theres a BIT more to it but there's not depth, its generic stuff all over the place, it felt underwhelming when i played it
I think now you can update with the newest DotA hero, kez. And even he can only use 3 out of 6 spell at one time, the purpose of the design is still make sense to have 6 spell.
I play both and the biggest issue with this is that hweis abilities all serve similar specialized roles to invokers,the difference is that hwei isn’t really the invoker of the game as much as ppl think he is. He has reagents and such but aphelios actually does have similar combinations to invoker and has more complexity with his ammo mechanic. Hwei is there to make you feel like you are doing invoker combos but the feel of invoker is all aphelios. Keep in mind once items are taken into acc it’s a whole diff discussion
Showing my age here but OG Invoker came out when I was in high school. Before dota 2. I had a printed-out page with all his spells . he had far more than 10
27 to be exact, because the orb's order also mattered 😂
3×3×3=27
Yea i heard of that, but icefrog wanted to make him playable for most people and not be gamebreaking with people casting 27 spells in just a few sec.
there's a dota mod which lets you play the old invoker Idk how to use the mod but I watched baumi played the mod
Nisiquiera se podia seleccionar de forma natural, te tenia que tocar a travez de la selección aleatoria.
Fun fact: The old Invoker had 27 spells, decided not only by which orbs you are using, but also by their orders (which is 27 different combinations)!
Damn i cba to memorize the simple qwe combinations. The order of them would be nuts
decided not only by which orbs you are using, but also by their orders... so exactly like it is in dota 2? He has 10 spells only because they left only 3 at each starter (q/w/e) + qwe as it easy to remember and use without having to make a character with 30 own spells as it's hard and op to both use and fight against. Invoker was always about order of his orbs.
@@zloybojok Not exactly, order matter means that qww ≠ wqw ≠ wwq, each of them would result in a different spell.
In modern Invoker - all three of them would result in Tornado.
27 permutations. 3 slots/members of 3 possible items have 10 combinations and 27 permutations max.
But I like how they scrapped that idea. 27 spells with no synergy among them, which made Invoker lame back then. Hahaha.
Invoker is peak design
An awesome hero that is only overpowered if you have the adequate skill and top awareness...which means absolute rewarding game play.
I wish more heroes were high skill (mechanical, awareness, etc.) = high reward.
More often than not mechanical skills are not enough... a braindead bristleback can own a game by essentially doing the same thing over and over, spam quills OR a braindead huskar almost always win lanes by default cause attack modifiers not pulling aggro...🤬
I mean, the higher the MMR, the more ppl know how to counter them. People just don't want to buy various items that are mostly going against their main build.
And still he's not overpowered. Or at least he is as overpowered as 90% of the dota 2 heroes.
@@luishurtado2170 90% of dota heroes are braindead easy to play compared to the hardest 10%. Huskar and Bristle also are lane dominators but scale to a pile of crap with the same item that your pos1 should get asap
@@luishurtado2170 Tinker was one of them, but Gaben decided to kill him
I think the beauty of invoker is that the mechanical act of queueing the orbs correctly and the encyclopedic knowledge required to know the combinations by heart to play him effectively alligns pretty much with the imagined feeling of being a battle mage. It's grounded in a way that is very rewarding and rewards good flow wth satisfying loops.
Imagine how it was back in the days each ability was on a different hotkey
@@PsychoMachado you mean legacy keys? I still use that 😐
I wanna try and learn to play invoker but he seems extremely hard to use😐😭
@@emmandiaz3495 Honestly, go for it. You don't have to use all 10 spells, so get comfortable with a couple of combos and you're good.
You prepare Tornado (WWQ) into Meteor (EEW). Start the fight with Tornado, then you hit QWER to swap Tornado for Deafening Blast. Then you cast Meteor on the people about to land and Deafening Blast once they hit the ground so they are pushed with the meteor. If you want to expand from there, You can use Cold Snap(QQQ) to lock down a support or anyone without a BKB or you can use EMP (WWW) to force the enemy to disengage.
That's already 5 spells you learned to use during teamfights that don't require that much input, since Deafening Blast, Cold Snap and EMP are pretty easy to input, and you have your combo starters already invoked (with Tornado being invoked first so it's swapped out first).
You don't need to think much about Ice Wall (QQE), Alacrity (WWE) , Forged Spirits (QEE), Ghost Walk (QQW) or Sun Strike (EEE) early on. Just get comfortable with the first 5. Once you learn those, you add in another one (recommend learning Ghost Walk then because it's a life saver) until you get all of them
@@emmandiaz3495 you can focus on a specific skill build for easier use like quas wex, or exort wex builds.
About gameplay design, I've never played Hwei so I can't talk about him but playing invoker surely feels like you always have the right tools for the job, the soft counter for every hero part couldn't be more true. He's not limitless but I do get carried away by his arrogance when I'm doing well with him. They got that arrogant personality in him completely right. I feel that I can always have a spell in my arsenal to overpower other inferior minds- I mean, other players XD
In reality, usually 10 seconds after the fight you realize you forgot to use something with invoker. Be it spells or it items, there's always something - this is coming from a Magicka player btw. God help you if you play refresher Invoker.
then you run out of spells, but guess what? Invoker can deal decent auto attacks😂
Just like knowing every specific slur for every ethnic and niche geographic group
hwei is like, invoker for newbies, his kit are easy to understand. i tried invoker back then and it hurts my head. on top of that, i tried playing him on both OG DoTA all stars and DoTA 2. invoker is way more painful in OG DoTA due to the how awkward his skill hotkets are. that wasnt present in DoTA 2 but he is still hard to play and i mostly manage to cast 2 spells, the meteor and the silence wave thingy ;-;
@@cat4890I'm out of spells but not out of options - Invoker with Parasma and Alacrity buff
Invoker teaches you how to play piano with your keyboard.
Hwei makes it harder for you to use the spell you want.
fr, by the time im done spamming invoker for a while, the top of my left hand is tired from how many keys you have to press during every match.
Hwei difficulty is overrated compared to other champions. He's really easy compared to the average Riven combos, which requires animation cancels. All his damage spells have different uses (QQ for poke, QW for long range that deals more damage to CC'd/Isolated targets (EW will be your best friend if you want to hit this spell) and QE is for waveclear, so you can gain lane priority. Utility spells are situational, WQ is for gank setup/getting back to lane faster, WW is for shielding (which is barely any useful and very hard to find a situation where it can be useful) and WE is for more passives procs + Mana because he gets OOMed really fast before first item. For CC, EQ is a gtfo card against assasins, EW is for zoning or setting up QW, and EE is for teamfights or if you suck at the game and you can only do QW + EE
Hwei is just Invoker if he wasn't Aphelios, which has 5 separate guns (like the orbs Invoker has), each having their own synergies, as you can carry 2 of them at once. All of them have a specific ammo count, putting the gun in the back of the rotation of the guns and getting the next one. In conclusion, imagine Invoker if he had 5 orbs, 2 slots for each combo cast, and can carry 2 at the time. In my opinion, Invoker is still king of difficulty and Aphelios/Hwei are nothing compared to Invoker
@@i_saidmeow2469 i have 500 games on invoker i needed the first 100 to fast cast abilities the other 100 to understand good when and where to use those abilites, i played hwei i needed 2 games to learn spells and undertand when and where use them XD
@@rskrzz6233 you are just spamming QWE orbs out of habit because we both know Tinker or any mildly micro intensive hero has at least 10x actions per minute thanInvoker has.
@@i_saidmeow2469 Invoker is hardly hard. Most of LoL players consider him very easy though. If anything, the likes of Meepo and Chen is way harder
Invoker is peak design, no moba will ever come close to replicating him unless they literally copy his every move set
Being GOOD at Invoker is dishing a lot of spells in quick succession. Being GREAT at Invoker is by knowing when to use your spells at the perfect moment. You summed everything up in the video and managed to tell everyone what Invoker truly is, a Jack of all Trades.
I think what sets apart good invoker is they can play the hero how the game demands it. You can be a sneaky assassin with orchid and ghost walk terrorising the enemy. Or you can be the ultimate team fighter, going for scaling instead of orchid. A hero that is truly dependent mostly on levels rather than items.
Also some of the absolute best invoker use only 20% of his kit most of the time. Because they use his kit like a scalpel, rather than just key smashing and hoping for the best.
@@abhitejveloreThis is what I was trying to convey on my second sentence. You expounded it way better than I could have. Thank you for that.
Or as Baumi Phillip Baumgart Says I. My own paraphrasing
Invoker is the entire fucking storage.
Then what am I? I know when its the right time to use which spell but I often misinvoke and cant do long combos.
The real reason of Hwei ever existed "oh really? we also have a hero with 100 skills"
"but the spells are all very generic and serve no unique purpose. take it or leave it."
What i think makes hwei feel like imposter is that his "versatility" stems from artificial restrictions. You are just choosing which restriction to your ability is the least detrimental. Where as with invoker, his restrictions come from his versatility and not being able to choose everything. Hwei's design feels subtractive, Invoker's feels additive.
Well said🎉
Hwei versatility is simplified to, you have 10 options where others have 4. Invoker has more, at the cost of a steep skill floor. Hwei's is simplified thus being versatile to player satisfaction, no restrictions.
I thought the title was going to slander Hwei, but I only saw the clickbait. I think this is the dota area, circle, where ppl can freely say their strengths to yes men.
Ah the ending is slanderous, my gloves come off.
This is the circle jerk dota creator, for purpose of this video, he is supposed to be a Dota engagement bait.
Hwei wasn't supposed to be invoker in the first place. I want whatever this clown of a creator is smoking.
@@IPromiseTomorrowYeah dude just bait 😅 thought it was a video showing how different is one from the other but half the way his just slandering lost all of his points on it yeah they're different one was created a few months ago while the other was created on a mod from warcraft also OG invoker has 27 combo valve just needed to pick which spells invoker needed 😅 LoL whole script on hwei is a magical painter so they need to take or make a few abilities from others to make a new one his combo feels overwhelming but playing him it's really not compare to invoker and I played Dota 1 for years so can can say the two are different invoker can be a master piece for people that likes his play style but comparing him to hwei is not great point just cause they have close to the same count as abilities one is a utility/situation mage while the other is just a artillery mage that spams colors at you from range hwei is closely similar play style as Lina or Zeus I know Zeus is a like karthus and Viktor cause his ult and scepter ability but Zeus is a freaking range spammer.
Fun fact: Invoker was a Magus by the title Arsenal Magus. Rubick, the Grand Magus, comments on it when they meet in lane on the same team by saying "Invoker now, eh? No longer the Arsenal Magus?" I also remember seeing somewhere that Invoker was the only Magus that didn't care when Rubick threatened to kill a Magus and maybe he was the intended target of the threat.
Probably lost his title when they reworked him
@@soep19 Nah, it's just lore. Because he was also Invoker in Dota 1
It's Karl now not Invoker or Arsenal Magus.
@@Krieze_Gamer It has always been Carl.
"Throughout the aeons, i've been known by many names. But my true name of power... Is Carl"
@@PsychoMachado I love that voice line and "Behold the MEATBALL!"
Iv played both but play more league.
I really find invoker a much better design n every level.
Firstly hwei has a visual design problem. All of his spells are paint. It doesn’t look skillful, it looks like a maniac splattering pain everywhere. He doesn’t paint a mouth to bite you or a meteor or anything, it’s all just splattering paint. It also means many of his abilities look the same. Whilst all of invokers abilities are very different and you can tell what’s being used.
Even though dota champions lore by design are paper thin.. (Correct choice) I still find invoker more compelling. Arrogant obsessed wizard is better than sensitive twink.
Dota Lore is strange yet great in its own way. The game takes place in a universe where the Ancients rewind time after each match to avoid being the loser. That means that all Dota games are canon. This also means that all cosmetic items are canon.
In one reality, Drow was Luna's nemesis, killing and skinning her ride to make her garments. In another one, Invoker was an obsessed father who destroyed the universe to save his daughter. Some heroes and items have this aspect of lore tailored into them, such as Spectre and CK, who summoned themselves from another reality to battle, or PA's Arcana lore, which resulted in Spectre creation.
This means everything in the game is canon, spanning all patches since the game's creation, all matches, all cosmetics, and every iteration of every hero, which is terrific.
@@XoLiTlz the ultimate multiverse is the granad scheme, the minor scheme is every hero have their own story and their own connection to one another, which making this game have very very vast story
Did you play LoL before 2016, buddy? Back then, the game didn’t even have a proper storyline or lore system. Even later, many heroes in LoL had to get their backstories rewritten to fit the game’s lore and avoid plot holes. Meanwhile, Valve has been building a complete lore system for Dota 2 since 2011, and to this day, not a single hero has had their biography replaced like LoL’s characters. In Dota 2, there’s a dynamic dialogue system where heroes exchange banter when they encounter each other, depending on the situation in the game. This helps players understand the backstory without requiring too much explanation, something Riot has been trying to emulate. Although Riot hasn’t been able to create such a vast and flexible dialogue system like Valve’s, they have implemented a similar feature where heroes confront and exchange lines with each other.
Personally, I don’t like the lore of fantasy games because, to me, it feels over-the-top and exaggerated compared to reality. But to claim that Dota 2’s lore is “thin” is downright ridiculous, at least when compared to LoL. Creating a fictional world with many characters isn’t difficult, but connecting them in a logically cohesive way is the real challenge. Riot’s writing team is honestly quite weak, which is why so many characters have had their backstories rewritten.
Dota lore was thin because it doesn't originally exist. Dota was a mod from Warcraft 3, so their original form was highly tied to that of their old models and forms, which, after dota 2, they can't fully reuse it because of copyright problems.
Juggernaut, axe was originally one race. Troll warlord (jahrakal) and dazzle, was of the troll race.
There were so many lores tied to their origin, all lost in transition
"Riot's writing team is weak" LoL has Arcane, Dota has what? Sit down.
Invoker is a great hero but GOD I WISH NOBODY PICKS HIM in my bracket. Because these spells don't mean shit when you miss them!
Fr 😂😂😂
I managed to find 10 on almost 10 years in Dota who were actually really good with it.. probably mains or smurfs
@@luccavalentinw.fiorini2302 And they like to pick him for POS4 or even POS5 and buy greedy items. It enrages me more than anything else.
I'd say I'm doing well in my bracket. probably 6 out of the match 10 match i dominate my lane, 3 match where it's even-ish, 1 match where i got dominated on my lane.
it's easy to win your lane when you have gold/item advantage because you're hitting your Sunstrikes.
also, I barely know how well people are playing him in my bracket because i almost always pick him lmao.
his winrate is very bad at low ranks and it gets higher as mmr goes up
@@luccavalentinw.fiorini2302 hi, here main invoker 500 games ahahaah the only problem is that to learn how to play it very good i needed 150 games and of those about 120 were lost so my wi nrate is something like 50.5% XD
OG invoker was made by Guinsoo. The guy behind League. He was broken af at launch with 20+ permutative spells. Icefrog balanced it to what it is known today. Guinsoo literally told heroes like Invoker were a knowledge barrier and therefore wouldn't be in league but here we are today.
Honestly I would love a game playing as someone like Invoker but with all 27 permutations. Quite literally a skill thing, eh
He has a point tho. Character being heavy on knowledge checks doesn't make him cool or interesting (remember that rewarding knowledge =/= rewarding skill). It's good to see he learned his lesson
@@himikojou5111 TBH most of the other 17 were kinda useless it basically narrowed down to how much damage you want to deal or how frequent.
@@himikojou5111it was funny when he met pugna,any spell used zap him for 1k dmg on a hero mostly with 3k hp
@@TrollFaceLaunch0 I clearly remember the blog post about 'the burden of knowledge' (the exact term they used) from them -Riot; and it had no single reason to exist. They literally declared themselves as puss*es looking for a casual audience and not looking into complicating things just a little because that's what brings money for them. So I don't know what lesson are you talking about.
Not only you have 10 different spells to use but you also want to juggle your orbs effectively. Want to ego fight a carry hero? Use 3 exort to out damage them you need a bit more attack speed? Use 3 wex. maybe you want to balance your dmg and atk speed? How about 2 exort and 1 wex. Want to heal up fast to join the fight again? Use quas. You want to regen while dealing dmg? Use 2 quas and 1 exort.
Plus dont forget that most of invoker's item builds are active. Blink dagger, shiva's guard, boots of travel/power threads, eul's scepter, force staff, and many more. You can build him as a support like topson did, or you can build him like a carry/mage build like miracle does or maybe you wanna build it like a mid that can always be around the map like how w33 does.
Ah yes, Grimstroke, the hero who throws his wife at you.
Oh.. Yeah, The father of hwei..
I really love his skills that make couples seerate
Thats why enemy get silence because his wife keep complaining
hahahahaha best comment ever hahahaha
cuckstroke
Invoker and Meepo are peak character design in video game industry.
It's a cool comparison because invoker doesn't have skills that are similar to other heroes in DotA while with Hwei you can clearly see similarities from other champs
Every lol ability is a skillshot, they all look the same
QQQ= Enigma Malefice
QQW= any invis
QQE= Jakiro's Q and E
WWW=any illusion hero with diffusal
WWE= Bloodlust from Ogre
WWQ= Euls or any setup disable
EEE= skillshot zeus ult
EEQ = Beastmaster's summons, or Visage's
EEW= any AoE ult like Jakiro''s
QWE= Huskar's Q ability
@@doriangrayest QQW invisible and healing, before inv movebonus and aura slow the enemy, cold wall is more Treant grasp or Brood aghanim. Copy of Huskar Invoker has defensive blast since dota 1, huskar has healing, burning spear and damage and attack speed for life lost a few years ago, only a few years ago he changed his healing to be together with his passive and changed the first for inner fire.
@@MrNatsuDragneel No invoker uses Ghost Walk for healing, just use Quas orbs. The ms bonus is cool but the aura, in my opinion, is just a Dust alarm for the enemy team, a huge troll. Ice wall is better than both skills but specially the garbage brood aghs. And I know the history of Huskar. As a meepo spammer, deafening blast was a huge problem if I didnt win early because the disable was very long and I just couldnt believe Huskar got lvl 25 Talent Boosted DeafBlast for free by lvl 7. (then meepo got all his braindead broken aghanim shard and scepter and life was easy again)
@@doriangrayest qqw is actually used to regain mana and hp, i assume you either dont play dota or are slow(quas orbs don't regen shit for almost half a year already)
qqe is definetly not jakiro q and e because 1) it is an object on map, not a projectile 2) it lasts for 12 SECONDS!!! 3) it serves a different purpouse. You can kinda compare it to new jakiro's aghanim but it came out 10 years later than invoker's wall
www is not the diffusal, it takes 30 over 50 hits from 1 illusion to 1 hero(5 hits each to each hero if you have 10 illusions) to burn the same amount that emp burns in it's range to everyone, and it also pulls the enemy in with shard making it also a control spell
eee serves different purpouse, unlike zeus ult that gives out every players position and is used to get map control and used to have a guaranteed kill on low hp unless they have magic damage shield like glimmer enemy sunstrike cant kill a person without info about their position, cant be beaten by invisibility, is a skillshot(not the only difference huh?)
qwe is not huskars ability for over half a year, again you are very slow which is ok for low mmr player
so there you have it, you are completly wrong on 4/9 spells and kinda wrong on 2 more spells, wwe also gives damage which is crucial for many interactions and you provided bad analogy with jakiro q and e although he has ability that is kinda sililar to slow wall with aghanim. Also eew is not a aoe ability but a nuke more like a puck's orb but there are really similar alternatives so i wont count it as being incorrect. Do better.
I used to have trouble to memorize them but Icefrog actually a genius :
Forge spirit : 2 fire 1 ice because even they are mostly fire, they are still creature which made from water (liquid or whatever)
Ice wall : 2 ice 1 fire. It look like mountain and every icy mountain (probably) have lava (fire) inside
etc
yeah but in my mind fire = dmg ice = int and slow cause ice itself so forge spirit is dmging creature with intellect and ice wall is slowing and damaging wall so it make sense itself
I color code the spells and the orbs. Tornado has more purple and little blue which means WWQ.
it sounds bot stupid and smart
Fire=damage
Ice= CC or have form (physical body)
Storm=AOE or buff
Fire fire fire = sun strike= do damage
Fire fire ice = Ice wall = a form of ice that can slow and do damage
Fire fire storm = meteor = aoe fire damage
Ice ice ice = cold snap = cc
Ice ice fire = forge spirit = damage unit
Ice ice storm = ghost walk = buff that can slow and invis
Storm storm storm = EMP = AOE
Storm strom ice = tornado = AOE cc
Storm storm fire = Alacrity = damage buff
Ice storm fire = Deaf. Blast = AOE damage disarm
if you draw a circle, 3 orbs around, you can pretty much see his every spells. connect the 3 ords toward center(qwe), connect 2 orbs 2 lines for orb1(qqw, qqe, wwq, wwe, eeq, eew), draw 3 lines in each orb outwards(qqq, www, eee)
Invoker = Mozart
IMO classic composers are more related to micro intensive heroes, specially if they have different roles, like Brewmaster ult or Chen's creeps and require a lot of rehearsal and prep time but is worth it
Invoker would be a classic instrument musician, perfecting his repetetitive repertoire to perfection, like Tinker or some really farm intensive pos1 with their timings
While Rubick and Morphling are jazz musicians that need to know how to improvise in any situation on the spot
Great video! One thing you could add is also how Invoker's autoattacks are a core part of his "arsenal."
In League, Hwei is classified as an artillery mage like Xerath, thus he's commonly played as a backline spell bot and his job is to just chuck spells behind his frontliner. You pretty much never need to autoattack as Hwei outside of the lane or farming as this would also expose you and your squishy self. In a low TTK game like League, this is the way to play Hwei optimally--and can be kind of boring to some people.
And when your spells are on cooldown, you just wait for them to come back online and spam buy Ability Haste.
In contrast, Invoker loses out on a lot of damage if he doesn't incorporate autoattacks. He is a universal hero and one of his facets does nothing but improve his autos. Even before these changes were implemented, triple exort Invoker would still hit surprisingly hard for a mage. And when your spells are on cooldown, you can still throw hands and put out decent damage.
It really just adds to the idea that Invoker needs to use everything at his disposal to be able to push this hero to his limit.
well, thats just false :D AA are a huge part of hweis kit thanks to his W-E. it's not only a tool to get the mana back, but also used to get ur passive onto the enemy. if you weave your AA correctly with ult, q and e you can procc hweis passive up to 3 times in one rotation on one target, instead of once, which you would get from only using spells. Thats one of the reasons why hwei consistently becomes quite oppressive at higher mmr in the hands of otps, while in lower elo it is often a coinflip between feast and famine.
@@ederofempires8793I must be facing shit Hweis then lmao, thanks for the info
@@ederofempires8793 All of your abilities on Hwei have longer cast range than your AA, you should absolutely not get in AA range after laning phase unless you are already jumped on and want to utilize the extra passive proc in hopes of killing the enemy before they get to kill you.
yeah invoker with hex or orchard hits like a truck.
@@abdush3268 Hwei is not meant to go toe to toe and chase people.
Hwei thrives on being the one chased, Similar to Xayah, thats why he has movement and AA-amplify spells on him
His optimal condition is having beefcake tanks peeling for him as you slowly back away while slinging spells (making you quite in-range to hit his autos as well)
Again, similar to Xayah
Its not just invoker's arsenal, riot also doesnt understand what make rubick's spell/skill mimicry works. Sylas is so strong and loaded by himself that counterpicking with a team comp with weak ultimate abilities barely make a difference for sylas. And since he only steals the ultimate ability he doesnt need any skill to time when he is about to rob your ultimate like rubick needs to wait for you to use an useful skill for him to copy and then be fast enough to copy you before you use something else.
Another of Rubick's main features is that he uses YOUR abilities better than you.
He has an almost instant cast animation for any ability (for example, Earthshaker's Fissure has a 0.69 second cast time, imagine that with 0.1), as well as a passive that increases damage and cast range.
Stumbled upon this video thanks to the algo.
I have been playing Dota since WC3 days and LoL for a brief period from 2013 to 2016. I can say that the kind of players Dota and League attracts are two absolutely different types. I would say that League is way more "family friendly" by design, even now watching current League content I can see that their DNA is to make characters as easy to digest as possible.
Dota on the other hand, does not give you training wheels. Similar to learning programming, you have to learn so many concepts and the initial early player experience can be quite overwhelming. But it is definitely a lot more rewarding and I still will deviate to Dota every time as you're rewarded for learning game mechanics and putting in time to get good at it. You can see the sheer skill difference between different ranks purely on how higher ranked players understand more and more of the game's concept better. (SEA servers are still full of trash though haha)
I think the design of Dota to sum it up is "if everything is overpowered, then everything is balanced" whereas League's design is leaning more towards "every character needs to fit their archetype in order for us to balance the game". Hence why Hwei is design to be a generic mage and Invoker even though he is a POS 2, can be played as POS 1 to 5 even in Pro Tourneys.
Good video nonetheless.
I agree with this.
Even then when all the heroes overpowered dota has so many variables that can help to overcome them.
That feeling of accomplishment when you run out of spells in a teamfight and need to refresh
8:10 Yep,when they tried to create a master piece that doesn't play it safe, not mediocre, not average. You'll get K'sante that ruins the game. Truly the best experience
What I like about Invoker is that he tries to describe or explain his invoked abilities when he casts it. It just shows so much of his character
Answering your question about design: You chose Hwei if you daydream about "hot" characters from video games. I hate the constant appeal to cuteness and sexyness and whatever in the art industry but I do get why they keep doing it, because people like it. I have a bunch of friends who play a certain character because they look cute or hot or how they would marry them or whatever. Like "I wouldn't play Malphite because he is ugly". M'dude, that mf is a rock.
In my opinion, Grimstroke has way better design, but I try not to judge people who like other designs because of cuteness and stuff.
Grimstroke looks badass Hwei looks like depressed gay painter
league of supermodels
But both Invoker and Hwei are extremely hot...
@@tysfalsehood one is Asian twink, the other is blonde nerd. Pick your favorite >:)
grim has better lore, he throws his dead wife to people, sometime twice
The reason Invoker is designed so well is because he used to have 27 spells meaning when the spell count was reduced to 10 the 10 spells which where kept where the best and had the best synergied and most uniqueness and usefulness.
100% Agree. Games made by fans tend to hit the mark more. As gamers, the DOTA devs know what gamers want. As corporate clowns, the LOL devs know jack squat.
They ran out of hero concept from the stolen allstar forum.
Some champs are better than others when it comes to having a cohesive idea. But given the far more accessible way league plays, it's actually suprising how much each champs kits match to the lore and idea of the champ. There is artistic integrity in the base champ design and gameplay idea synchronicity. However, the gameplay itself is aggrovatingly stilted, with simple champs and difficult champs almost randomly being strong. You could play the most technical champ the most impressive way, and still lose, and play the easiest champ the least skillful way and win, just as much as you could just learn one combo on Hwei, win lane, and snowball you lead to a win, and just as much play Yuumi and win based on the design of the champ. The champs themselves are very well designed, but the game they're in is very unreliable and lame most of the time.
@@awesomepsumeso you're saying hwei is well designed?
@@rayoscrost I've said exactly enough information to extrapolated what I feel is true about Hwei's design.
@@awesomepsume so you say hwei is well designed, okay.
grimm stroke throws his dead wife a t you to silence you peak lore on abilities
Hwei is exactly how MOBILE LEGENDS make heroes. Take one spell off of a champion in league, then mix them then call it a new hero in mobile legends.
@pitchblack2744 That is something I didn't paid close attention to. That's a very good point that you bring up. can't confirm that if its true or not but ML does have something of a similar problem.
The amount of fan-shaped skills in ML is ridiculous, even Assassin's and fighters have it, and they all do the same basic thing
I have 8000 hours in dota and I was very disappointed with the release of Hwei. I thought he was like an invoker in the league, but he didn't live up to my expectations.
also tornado does a simple dispell on the enemy, removing effects of skills, buffs and runes...
Plus you need to time it depending on the skill lvl.. the "lift time" changes, so you need to keep up with it to avoid missing skills xD sometimes you need to invert the skill order to hit them! (like EMP first, tornado later.. in late game is always tornado first, EMP later.. sunstrike is the same, early game you can miss the combo if using tornado first.. the enemy drops very fast and can dodge your sunstrike) so yeah, invoker is hard to master but veeeeery rewarding
Well edited, great pacing, thoroughly and clearly explained. You make it seem so obvious now (not that I play League or Hwei tbf). This was a great video.
Not just that invoker has 10 skills, but if you also bought 6 items with each of them having active effects, with additional aghanims and shard, it is really a chaos
A masterpiece.
First Blood, as indeed I was first in everything.
-Invoker
Nothing quite matches the feeling of ripping off a huge epic combo with a tornado, flaming meatballs, an EMP blast, an orbital laser, a wall of ice, and an omnidirectional shockwave...then mashing Refresher Orb to do it again.
The feeling of finally doing it in one fluid motion is quite rewarding. i have seen people in pubs spending hours in training mode just to be able to do the 3 or 4 spell combo only to completely lose composure in the actual game.
Invoker is a hero for a player who is either truly talented or a pure sweatlord.
Don't forget blink.. vyse.. orchid.. shivas.. etc xD
Dota players : invokers is a masterpiece and league is not good.
league player: i don't think about you ever.
Of course, because when you play Dota, you actually have to use your brain-something LoL players don’t need as much. So, it makes sense that LoL players never think about Dota 🤣.
When invoker gain full EMP ability and have good timing he Will force you go home coz emp Will clean up your mana
Kalthas also used to have 27 skills
The order of the orbs mattered on the involed ability
i've never played Dota but this video was super fun, sending love from Chile :)
The first time i experienced hand cramps was from playing only invoker for multiple days because I finally memorized his orb placement lol
Playing invoker is like playing through the fire and flames in guitar
as invoker main with more than 2k games i appreciate you giving my boy the respect he deserves
Invoker makes you FEEL like a master of mystic arts.
Hi Annov I'm making a moba of my own and I really appreciate this kind of videos, keeps me aware of how different people play this kind of games
ohhh can u show your progress ?
please make progress videos on youtube, i'm very interested in your though process
Bro for real? Can we see it?
Best of Luck!
Im doing one too, good luck bro, we need to rise to fuck riot
Cause he is a beacon of knowledge blazing across a black sea of ignorance.
The thing that i love of the main honor tittle of Invoker is "The arsenal mage" and they give him the love he show in game, love dota, miss my home, no computer for the moment
When we type LOL in a Dota game, our hero(Champion) laughs in the game.
I studied invoker spells back in highschool, with a paper and a pen. Yes his spells creates a pattern that looked like witchcraft circle.
If you draw a circle, 3 orbs around, you can pretty much see his every spells. Connect the 3 ords toward center(qwe), connect 2 orbs 2 lines for orb1(qqw, qqe, wwq, wwe, eeq, eew), draw 3 lines in each orb outwards(qqq, www, eee)
Honestly invoker is a hero that when played right can be played anywhere and can carry from any position. The scariest thing about him is his versatility and unpredictable play depending on who plays him.
NGL invoker is indeed a masterpiece hero in moba games no one top this hero in terms of complexity and how good he is in teamfight
Invoker just straight up overpowered but balanced out by how hard everything of his malfunction, and i like that
why the hell is this guy so underrated, I don't understand.
i saw a video comparing hwei's abilities to other champions' skills. his kit is basically a compilation of other skills with paint aesthetics. he even has sett's pull ability, he can just use it from a longer range.
EDIT: 7:34 i think they designed him to be a pretty boy considering that MOST of the recent skins released by this company are pretty, e-boy/e-girl, sexy designs.
As a dota player who playes league occasionally i really love Hweis design, as its a bit simpler to understand but has really cool mechanics you can use, that come with experience.
Same goes for invoker of course, but i dont think that Hwei is badly designed.
*Primary Skills (3)*
1. Quas (W)
2. Wex (E)
3. Exort (D)
*Invoke Spells (24)*
1. Meteor Hammer (Quas + Exort)
2. Tornado (Wex + Exort)
3. Cold Snap (Quas + Wex)
4. Ghost Walk (Quas + Wex + Exort)
5. Ice Wall (Exort + Quas)
6. Forge Spirit (Wex + Exort)
7. Sun Strike (Quas + Exort + Wex)
8. Alacrity (Wex + Quas)
9. EMP (Quas + Wex + Exort)
10. Deafening Blast (Exort + Wex + Quas)
11. Blast (Exort + Quas + Wex)
12. Wall of Text (Quas + Exort + Wex)
13. Purge (Quas + Wex)
14. Refresh (Wex + Quas)
15. Shield (Exort + Quas)
16. Deflection (Wex + Exort)
17. Spell Shield (Quas + Exort)
18. Magic Missile (Exort + Wex)
19. Soul Assumption (Quas + Wex + Exort)
20. Astral Imprisonment (Exort + Quas + Wex)
21. Silence (Wex + Quas + Exort)
22. Doom (Quas + Exort + Wex)
23. Hex (Exort + Wex + Quas)
24. Conversion (Quas + Wex)
LoL player here, Invoker is for sure an insane design and it has a lot of subtilities but the thing with hwei is just how league works, his gimmick is the 3 different abilities in each key, it would be crazy if he could cast 10 abilities. Also, the mana regen on w is bc his abilities require a huge mana amount, so you would run out of mana in every rotation for probably 10 minutes every game.
The problem is Hwei's lack of personality. His design is boring, his gameplay is boring, his skills are boring
@@gabrielnovais871and all they needed to do was instead of splashing paint, had like painted images of his spells subject matter appearing in his casts to make him interesting but it’s easier to just splash particle effects and call it a day
@@gabrielnovais871Very much subjective, he also doesn't really lack personality, he's the loner cute artist archetype whose parents were murdered by Jhin and because of that, he thinks of Jhin as the one who opened his eyes to all the colours of the world (he still hates Jhin though, but respects what he does).
Remember, invoker for the last 6 years has had almost no reworks and major patch changes. Hes that good and balanced.
Agreed! keep up the great vids🔥
dont forget those orbs skills they are not just to cast invoke for spells, every orbs combination has its bonus stats for normal attacks, basically its like power treads
I subscribed to you and liked this video because:
1. Its Invoker, and I main Invoker.
2. I see god Miyazaki in the video.
Invoker is the mechanical masterpiece and maybe the hardest hero to play in any moba because we need to add the fact that invoker also uses items and has new combo with some of them. Scepter and shard change his abilities, scythe of vyse, eul scepter, etherial blade, blink dagger, so many items that make Invo even harder. Fun to play and overpowered af when it's on the right hands
Ubisoft catching strays man. I can't. lol.
fun fact : Invoker has so much skills that in the lore, he is known as the Arsenal Magus.
playing invoker is like harmony
every instrument(spells) are decent., but if you put them on top of each other they make more than sum of their value.
simply mixing 2 instruments is good, but you can also make quartet or huge orchestra
but this imposter’s spells are just the sum of their value and it’s not even unique. what a joke
there are huge amount of more possibility if you put some items, which league don’t have
my last league game was years ago but im sure they don’t have items like blink or eul(don’t even talk about hourglass) or e-blade or refresher
Not to mention with items like Vyse, Orchid, Euls, Etc. You basically have at most 18 spells at your disposal in an engagement.
I would add, that actually all of incoker spells besides ghost walk deals damage, just low amount of it. So when you deal the damage you also need to use every spell (in many situations) but you make youself exposed while them on cooldown so you can also think about spell economy in exchange for damage
Invoker is like a yugioh duelist, he can summon Heavy Storm, Nibaru the primal being. can special summon fire monsters to fight for him. xD
You sound very pinoy. Greetings from Malaysia.
When you talk about small counters against heroes, you can add that cold snap interrupts hero such as Earthshaker who has awful casting animation. EMP drains Medusa's Mana Shield. Ice Wall and Forged Spirit depletes Templar Assassin's Refraction quickly. Tornado dispels enemies too, for example Windrunner's Windrun and Scurry of Hoodwink. You also should mention Catacalysm which is the highest damage single cast spell in DotA, higher than Thundergod's Wrath I believe.
Just 10 spell already OP bro. Before I stop play Dota 2, I used to cast 5-6 spell at once. For me its basic combo. Tornado -> EMP -> Meatball (Chaos Meteor) -> Deafening Blast -> Force staff (self)-> Ice Wall -> Sunstrike. To me, thats basic combo. All my friend can cast more but for me just average player. Stop play Dota 2 cause a lot of changes in the game like talent tree (correct if Im wrong) and Invoker nerf. Nowadays see a lot player need to use refresher orb just make do damage to enemy. well good old days. BTW thanks for video
A ONE OF THE GREATEST VIDEO ON UA-cam ABOUT A MOBA's AND ABOUT INDUSTY
invoker is the most unique and brilliant hero design ever.
We've joked that we need a chart of Hwei's spells, but Invoker is a whole another level
invoker is a peak game hero from character to a design he is just HIM
I played invoker back in wc3 dota. Although i wasn't very good at the game, I still remember the first time I landed a tornado meteor defeaning blast combo and one-shotting someone, so satisfying.
Hitting sunstrike on a low hp enemy as they reach base and killing them is one of the satisfying things.
This video about to blow up, once arcane s2 is over
Invoker went through a lot of iterations since he was released in dota 1, then to dota 2. I still remember that you can only use your spells after you hit lvl 6, because you need to be lvl 6 to lvl up invoke spell, and you can't cast spells without invoke so u can only lvl up ur orbs in the first 8-10 mins. of the game, then they change it so you can lvl up invoke when you are lvl 1 or 2?, then they change it again so that you already have invoke when you start the game and you just need to worry about what 2 combination of orbs are you going to build in early games....Since Hwei is a new hero they can change his spell mechanics or revamp his spells if they want him to be a viable hero in game, they can test or have as many iterations so that it will be a unique but playable hero,
Invoker originally had 27 spells, some strong as hell, some useless than useless. Instead of the now QWE, WQE, EQW= Deafening Blast, before each of those orb placements have a different spell related to it. So they made it easier to combine the spells, as well as mentioning it in the lore where Invoker uses an incantation to forget most of the useless spells he has, which leaves to the 10 we have now
I played dota ever since dota 1. My favourite is invoker. No other hero gives me more mental excitment than playing invoker.
Wait so you think you can't combo those 4 abilities like Ivoker can? I would argue Hwei has even more utility than ivoker for example:
1. Team chasing down an enemy WQ
2. Teammate getting chased QE/WQ or WW/EW
3. Warwick has ulted someone EQ
4. If you want make sure your ult hits multiple people you can combo it with EE/EW
5. Maybe you are play with an Amumu you can wait until he ults then R and EE/EW to make sure they all get hit
6. His QQ is made for hitting people that are full HP or Tanks %max hp
7. His QW is made for executing low health champs 10-15% or below %missing HP
8. Nunu is casting ult and you want to cancel it EQ/EE
9. Running out of mana is a very common occurrence in league so WE is very useful
10. WW is very useful if your allies are getting hit with burns or they are getting combo'd by the enemy team because it provides more shield the longer you stand in it.
Hwei is a very usuful champ and he has many uses but similar to invoker he requires a lot of play time and game knowledge.
5:25 looksmore like a knockoff of Orphea's second heroic, Crushing Jaws.
Also in Lore, Invoker uses all the spells to 1 v 1 with Full Fat Terrorblade equipped with Skadi and Butterfly
Euls is great on invoker, makes landing combos easy and you can preserve tornado. When I played that was my first item
I have 1000 games on Invoker and memorized even the lift time of Tornado basing on his Quas' level. I have played many other games but nothing comes close to the always-thinking playstyle approach of Invoker and how versatile he is.
I rarely played Invoker. And when I do, my fingers decides to have stroke individually. The LoL version just gives you 3 sets of skills with 3 individual skills but with Invoker you have 3 skills that you can used to make combinations to "invoke" a skill. it may sound easy but it is frustrating if you cant get the timing. there's also changes in stats according to what "orb" is being used and the lvl of the "orb", the damage, duration, cd also changes according to the lvl, then there's aghs and shard and talent tree. Invoker is mental. A really good hero and also a frustrating one.
Not for nothing is Invoker above the Arsenal Magus, he is The Invoker
I remember when Invoker was released in dota1 and we are mind blown coz how awesome he was designed, a hero with lots of abilities but you have to mix your orbs first and you have to remember each ability's orb combinations 😂
In wc3 dota1, his model is the hero called Blood Mage/Kael'thas Sunstrider using a custom skin
I think the equivalent of Invoker for me is Ryze before the multiple reworks, he had tons of combo and versatility with his abilities, but was nerfed to death due to one pro player spamming him in competitions.
Plus, all of Invoker’s quotes are pretty good!
remember how topson was shacking the ti8 with his invented combo quas 1st and vassel spirit.
then everybody start to try it.
Invoker: Masterpiece ✨
Prince Kael'thas: Legend 👑
When you said Invoker has 10 spells, I was like no, 27. Damn I'm old 😂
back then when the orb order matter, 27 spells for invoker was really something.
possibilities aren't endless it is limited and all of it gets countered by a simple force staff. INVO players coping
Or BKB lul.
@@HighLanderPonyYT To be fair, BKB had a long cooldown while Force Staff is just stupidly good since the cooldown is 19 sec. AND if more than one hero has it, they can just chain it to get allies far away.
@@NormalHatter thats why people just play autoattack invoker :) especially since he's universal now and gets insane amount of stats from manta style XDXD
Thats why you play with u team
The thing i see with league is that it mostly consist of [Area damaging skills, slows, dashes, enhanced attack for damage], and YES theres a BIT more to it but there's not depth, its generic stuff all over the place, it felt underwhelming when i played it
-Invoker giving problems
- *Viper enters the chat*
I think now you can update with the newest DotA hero, kez.
And even he can only use 3 out of 6 spell at one time, the purpose of the design is still make sense to have 6 spell.
I play both and the biggest issue with this is that hweis abilities all serve similar specialized roles to invokers,the difference is that hwei isn’t really the invoker of the game as much as ppl think he is. He has reagents and such but aphelios actually does have similar combinations to invoker and has more complexity with his ammo mechanic. Hwei is there to make you feel like you are doing invoker combos but the feel of invoker is all aphelios. Keep in mind once items are taken into acc it’s a whole diff discussion
@deadeye7924 btw I was hyped for Hwei when they told me he will be similar to invoker. But I was disappointed in the end.