Broken by Concept - Episode 115 - What Is The Hardest Role? ft.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- Wow 3 coaches.
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Twitter: / coachcurtislol
Twitter: / nathanimott
Timestamps:
00:00 - 00:10 // Intro
00:00 - 1:00:00 // Timestamps coming soon
1:00:00 - 1:01:00 // Outro - Ігри
So if I understand correctly, people first name Coach get blue seats and first name Nathan get swagged out gamer chair. Interesting
Where is my blue chair 💺?
I loved the discussion later in the episode about finding the "best" decision in any given scenario. I think Nathan and Cupcakes perspectives were from not any lack of experience or anything like that, I agree with a lot of their thinking. I think their perspectives come from simply playing jungle and support. Those roles are known to be the most macro focused roles, you have a lot of times in every given game as a jungler or as a support, where you HAVE to make a decision and stick to it. If it doesn't work out, you made the wrong decision, for any number of reasons. That's how these roles work, they are focused on opportunity cost.
Mid Lane doesn't work like that. Curtis says mid is 70% feel and I agree, there are many times as a mid laner where something is happening and you just have to go, or you just have to out play the opponent mechanically. There is no time to think if you are making the "best" decision.
Ultimately these perspectives just lie in how macro focused you are in each game. For the fizz example, if a mid laner had the time to weigh the options between going topside or bullying fizz. I bet you could figure out what would be best for that game. But it's hard to go from, focusing on wave state, winning this trade, going all in, winning the all in, and making this decision, in the span of less than a minute. For Jungle you will always go back to farm camps, you have time to consider options, for support you will always go back to lane, you have time to consider options.
As I watch and conclude the discussion, I just wanna say that man this Podcast is so legendary. I loved this episode so much!
I'm looking for the Coach Curtis of Top Lane👀
Closest I've seen is Coach Eragon, but his content is very good!
Eragon is really solid. Bizyze is good in general and esp for adc and support.
Coach Eragon is the best top lane coach on UA-cam so far imo
I’ll still pick neace as top lane coach esp for split push champs ie jax Fiora GP
On the optimal play/solving the game debate: let's take chess into account for a second, since it is a good example of a game that could be solved in theory.
So how does one go about that?
We figure out every possible game state, and the number i found while browsing is 7*10^45, meaning a 7 with 45 zeroes. This is a ridicolously large number.
If we were to look at every possible configuration and try to find the most optimal play, we could technically solve the game. The problem here is that we would have to build a branching tree with all possible ways the game could play out, and that number is estimated to be about 10^120. This is a lot more than the known atoms in the universe, just to give you an idea of size.
Now keep in mind that chess only allows each player 1 move per turn, no information is hidden, and each piece has very specific movesets.
Comparing this to league, consider that the amount of possible permutations for champ select only.
I used data from lolalytics.com to determine the amount of champs per role, keep in mind that this also factors extremely fringe playable champs. Nontheless we have 93, 59, 97, 40, 73 "playable" champs per role from top to support.
This would mean 28106 possible permutations for champs picked. This does not factor in bans, and optimal combos, counterpick, meta etc. Either way, this means the possible initial gamestates are 28k. Chess only has 1 possible initial gamestate.
We could also throw in runes, for an additional 1125 permutations, bringing us to 31 million possible permutations of an initial gamestate.
Now factor in runes, skill order, items, powerspikes, how you play the lane, lasthitting and all the factors that influence just the first minutes of the game, and factor in that every second 10 players perform these actions at the same time.
If we assume chess has the same complexity as league, even tough i think league is way more complex, we would have something in the order of 31619250*10^120 possible gamestates.
We can't even begin to imagine how big this number is, so i think it is reasonable to assume that our limited minds are nowhere even close to figuring out how to solve this game.
Also factor in that there's changes every 2 weeks, so you don't even have the timeframe to analyze every possible configuration.
In conclusion, we don't have the tools to even fathom solving the game and probably never will.
This is a very good topic 46:20
I'll give one clear example of what Curtis was saying about gold not being the best metric, lets say u're fizz and instead of staying mid and getting a kill u go top, and it is warded, the enemy jg was about to gank top and kill your fiora and destroy her lane phase, but he backed down, u prevented that, u didn't gain any gold, u might even have lost gold, but long term u probably won the game cause fiora carried the game late.
You guys got a support coach a jungle coach and a mid coach now you guys just need to bring up an adc coach and a top coach and you have the whole team :D of awesomeness
50:50 i mean i kinda get your point but in pro combat sports at a match you have your coach like in front of ring or octagone and he tells you like: grab his leg, preassure him now , keep jabing , back off now , move your hips this way etc
Learned a lot from Cupcake from the support video they made with Curtis, very eye-opening video, good player.
Hardest role? I'm mid laner, but i definitely think it's jungle... Jungle is like a mini-game by itself...
What a great episode, i love how u guys traded arguments, tried to find some answers, very juicy. I wish we could see this trio more often
Is no one talking about the calves of Curtis??? man has tree trunks attached to his knees haha
Even if the game were solved there would still be decisions that are not 100% set in stone. Due to the imperfect information there would be gankes/moves that you only have a %frequency of going for.
I know this is really late but the discussion about the "perfect" decision really intrigues me. I think a good example is chess; right now in chess we have incredibly powerful chess engines that are capable of giving as close as possible to perfect moves. Even these engines though aren't always right; it's impossible to calculate every possible move that could happen from any given move even in a game as comparatively simple as chess. Theoretical perfection absolutely exists in league but no human player is capable of it even in a purely theoretical level just like in chess. Of course larger decisions can be very obvious as almost certainly the best decision, but many times there will be multiple that will be (as far as any human could tell) equally good (equal chances at winning).
Finally coach cupcake is on again!
BEEN W8NG for da content let's goooo
Thank you so much bro. Sending virtual hugs ❤. Worked like a charm ;-)
The legends
you record with hardware outside of the program. Great tutorial btw it was very detailed but still just right for beginners.
Omg not only we get another episode with Cupcake, which is already great, but this time it's with everyone at the BBC studio! Let's go!
Real champs
YESSSSSSIRRRRRRRRRRR 🐐 🐐 🐐
Seriously though you 3 guys have changed my life and if I’m ever asked my role models it’s you boys thanks a lot.
@@vondoplays1630 same absolute role models changed my life view
My last 3 block was 2-1 but it felt like all wins cause last game (i made mistakes to be sure) my adc was trying to tell me which support to play, im glad they lost that game 😂
Get cupcake on every week!
I'm invincible, yeah, I win every single ga
You guys should really try and add cupcake to the roster this was a great episode
Best episode, totally unbiased opinion, it's not because i'm a supp main xd
Let’s go!
There probably is an optimal decision, but it's too theretical and abstract to even try to think about. There are WAY too many variables. Chess is an extremely simplified version of league in a way, and there are super engines who have calculated really strong moves, but even then you can't agree on a move being the optimal move, because there might be another super engine developed who comes to another conclusion of another move, etc, etc. It would be extremely naive to believe you can in league that is 10000x more complicated. Intuition and feel is a way to process all the numbers and roughly estimate them in real time. The best players are not or will never exactly calculate lethal all-ins with enemy HP, shield number, resitenceas, their ability lvl, ad and ad scaling, runes, what enemy possibly would do, how much times it takes to move from a certain point on summoners rift, their move speed their dash abilities, etc. The human brain will never be able to perfectly process all of these things, it's far too complicated. Because there's also an element of the enivronment not being fully visible where we have all the info as well. For example we don't know how many points someone has put into certain abilities or where they are in fog of war, or how well someone is going to play a certain situation, so plays will be percentage based, now there might be a play that has the highest percentage of working based on a million variables (player psychology involved even etc) but it's too theoretical. So I agree with curtis here, it doesn't make sense to speak in terms of optimal, maybe in terms of closer to optimal.
Whoa a cross over episode
Catcake is my man ❤
sooo what is the hardest role?
Hate to say it but….it’s obvious the other two don’t really know much about midlane. Def agree in Jg it’s almost always very obvious what the best decision is. The key is playing in a way that you can deviate from that if something changes.
This is legendary
I managed to make a simpel rythm in 3 hours… I tNice tutorialnk I will try more so I can get more EXP points ;D
Best quality vacuums ;)
curtis is quite disagreeable
Meh, they didn't even try ranking role difficulty. Are clickbait titles standard on this pod?
😍