This style of marker training is working well with my two year old GSD. If he does not come to the heel position correctly I say "no" and he knows to square off.....and look at me. He stays motivated. Thank you for the video...and the crickets in the background sound nice
I did not know that this was a recognised method. I use clicker training and click when right. I have been taught by some trainers never to say "no" or just to keep waiting for dog to give the right move and have tried working with different methods to teach heelwork to music. I find that always using the word no said in the same way makes the dogs more eager to please and like the dog on the video the move is learnt quicker.
Negative markers make total sense. I mean what is that game that we all play when we were kids? How funny, I don't even know the name of it but it's where you've hidden something and then you say "hot or cold, warmer, warm, cool cold, freezing!..." That game would be harder to play without the "colder" parts, so... Make sense it would help! 😁
I'm VERY hopeful this will work with my Maltese because he's just so tiny. I'm really not comfortable putting things like shock or choke collars on him!
Applied behavioral science has provided us something called the four quadrants of operant conditioning, which is a series of terms relating to the various influences that increase or reduce certain behaviors from happening. In short, here is what they are: Positive punishment - adding something aversive to a situation to reduce unwanted behavior (i.e., hitting a dog) Negative punishment - removing something desirable to reduce unwanted behavior (i.e., taking food or a favorite toy away from a dog) Positive reinforcement - adding something desirable to increase the likelihood of wanted behavior reoccurring (i.e., giving a dog a food reward for responding to your cue, such as when you ask a dog to sit) Negative reinforcement - removing something aversive to increase the frequency of a wanted behavior (i.e., stopping a continual shock in order to get a dog to return)
the dog certainly doesn't loose his drive, which means he isn't understanding the cue 100% with the - the marker word, though in the moment, showed the dog that what he just did wasn't right, it didn't seem to decrease the frequency that the dog repeated the wrong choice in the future. Would it not have been more effective to cue the dog with hand signal after the first "no" to show him that you wanted stand, rather than him spending time guessing? wouldnt it speed up the successful reps?
I use negative markers all the time with Ruby. I think its super important to use the no marker in teaching its just communication with your dog. Most of us accidentally teach this to our dogs anyways. Why not use it in training? How ever its important that when you do negative markers dont use in anger or frustration. I know when am teaching Ruby a new word. She will cycle through all her other words she knows. She never loses energy in our teaching lessons. I prefer the term teaching over training. Because what we really are doing is teaching them what words are anyways. Not much different than when teaching a human kid how to speak at first. Except dogs take a lot longer to learn our words and they say at this stage of developement.
Cindy is Amazing! Love Leesburg! Common sense communication with dogs. Most everything I have come across for behavior borderlines into abuse. I thank you guys so much for your continued dedication to dogs
Abuse??? Have you ever trained a dog doing this and there are multiple distractions? I train this way too, but during the early stages. I still use it during the later stages, but I promise you this... If a distraction such as a cat were to cause the dog to chase it across a busy highway, I promise you that a treat or tug toy is “Not” going to change the dogs minds no matter how many times you give the command/even scream bursting vessels in your neck. Fact,Fact,Fact. That’s where pressure release training comes in or for short, avoiding a ass whooping. Fact,Fact,Fact...
Ugh. I've officially been obsessively studying dog training vids for too long - I read your comment "if I REcall" and trying to figure out what you meant. Then realized "oh. reCALL" 😆
my young puppy gets a bit frustrated when he gets the negative marker. nope. he will whine continually until he gets it right and then will stop whining when I say yes and move to reward him. this is always when moving from a sit to a down or from stand to a down. I'm worried that he will continue this anticipation/frustration whine as he ages? he is a 11 week old puppy.
Isn't a negative marker still a correction? I may need to look into the classifications, but to me anything made towards the dog, verbal or otherwise, in order to change a behaviour Ive always seen as a correction. Do 100% agree with this video though. Attitude is everything!
It depends how you condition your markers. Most people define a correction as a leash pop, or the use of some other aversive tool.This would be considered positive punishment and if you paired your punishment marker (No) with a leash correction then yes, a punishment marker would still have the same physiological effect on the dog as an actual leash correction due to classical conditioning. However, a lot of people pair their punishment marker with the withholding of a reward (negative punishment) which would by most peoples definition not be a 'correction'. So to answer your question, yes, it can be, but it just depends on how you condition your dog to the punishment marker (No/Nope) and how you define a 'correction'. Hope that helps!
Ah OK, yes perfect sense - I've always considered negative punishment to be a correction too as I'm manipulating the environment and therefore still 'doing' something (withholding) to elicit a different response to the one that I've received. Glad to know it's not seen as a correction. Absolutely awesome installing this when they are a pup. Thanks.
Likely because the dog did not do the correct behavior upon the initial command. If she rewarded, the dog could learn to sit and then stand instead of standing right away.
Ok this is good for teaching a behavior, for teaching the dog not to do things, i dont think it be very quick and usefull. I absolutely ok with this but i think it is necessary to use some correction sometimes
I don't really think so, at least based on what I understand of the principles of operant conditioning. The word "correction" usually equals positive (additive) punishment, where the correction itself is a bad experience for the dog and makes the wrong behaviour less likely to occur. I think saying "nope" calmly does not count as a "correction" because it is not in itself aversive to the dog. Instead, it is merely a *marker* of negative (subtractive) punishment - ie. a word that merely marks the withholding of reward, which is a punishment by not giving the food/toy. On the other hand, a verbal correction (ie. positive (additive) punishment) would be saying "no!" harshly and loudly with the intent to scare/startle/negatively affect the dog, and the harsh sound itself is the punishment (rather than the withholding of the treat being the punishment). (Edit: Leerburg replied to another comment along a similar vein.)
Please enlighten me on your term 'negative' in my experience with animal training (over 25 years) and particularly operant conditioning...seals, lions, tigers, bears etc in the zoo industry...and of course dog training, negative means the removal of something i.e - and positive means the addition of something i.e +. The basis of all animal training is, positive reinforcement and positive punishment as well as negative reinforcement and negative punishment. Videos like this and most others continue to be confusing for me because of the incorrect use of the words 'positive' and 'negative'. Most people understand that positive is good and negative is bad, this is incorrect unless I have missed a generation or two of animal training. And on another note, the 'word' you use is only a 'sound' to your dog until your dog associates it with an action followed by reinforcement or punishment, so no or nope could be replaced by bad, wrong or any other sound you wish....even good, your dog knows no different as it is only a sound until it starts to associate it with the behaviour. Your help in my understanding of the terms would be greatly appreciated.
Not sure where you missed the point or got confused. In reward based training (which is how we train - its not operant conditioning in the true sense) the dog gets a reward for the mark. You would probably call this a positive communication. The dog learns this through what we call 'charge the mark'. When teaching a behavior we use successive approximation to reward and refine behaviors up to the point where we feel the dog understands the behavior we want it to do. We use positive markers and high value rewards to accomplish this. If the dog makes a mistake in training the handler needs to determine if he help through luring, or does the handler use a negative marker of NO or NOPE. Which means "if you want your high value food reward you will need to try again". So in essence we are withholding the food reward. So we are taking the reward away. I have been training dogs for over 55 years and come up through "the yank and crank era of dog training." Twenty or so years ago it took me awhile to wrap my head around this concept of this style of dog training. It has changed the way we communicate with our dogs. I hope this answers your question. If you want to learn how to do this correctly I would recommend the video I did titled THE POWER OF TRAINIGN DOGS WITH FOOD. on Leerburg.com - 20 years ago people thought we were crazy to train dogs with food - simple because they didnt understand the system. Its simple b ut its not easy to master.
@@efrawley55 Thanks for your reply, I know how to train this way and teach it in my classes. Your terminology as far as animal training is what I am questioning here. Too many people use the words positive and negative incorrectly. People who aren't as educated think that positive is good and negative is bad. This is incorrect and you with your 55 years experience should know this. I am not against your technique, I think the terms that you and other trainers use should be clearer. I am all for reinforcement based training, note I use the word reinforcement not positive. Your 'negative marker' is simply a reprimand (which is actually a positive punisher) indicating to the dog it has failed the command (request as 'positive trainers' like to put it). I guess we are all in it for the good of the dog so each can use whatever words sound good to the youtube watching public.
Leerburg Enterprises, Inc Do you guys have any books based on Michael Ellis' training techniques? I am a huge fan and want to learn marker training for my dog.
Is ,my Bruno look like Rush,his mother was German shepherd,pls reply _lh3.googleusercontent.com/3Ru5CosRhJ82NG4GyEsfXHkfq4m2Jr-Y7_j9KS1I3vr_I4-C-AFYsByeJXiXvwLqb3ZAxRkZxA_
Drive is simply desire. If my dog sees a toy and instantly all thought process goes out the window and she lunges for the toy that is drive. Her little dog brain clicked and immediately she said 'GO GET THAT' Prey drive. My dog is paying attention to me, we may be playing a game, suddenly she catches a scent, her nose flies to the ground and she things "OOH SMELL. FOLLOW IT" Thats drive. Training them in drive is harnessing the natural desire for these things and rewarding it. A dog trained in drive is going to be more energetic, and fast. (watch IPO obedience) a dog not trained in drive will be slower and more methodical (watch AKC obedience) Humans have drive, every living thing has drive. We are born with it. Drive to eat, chase, fight, mate. It doesnt make us mindless. It makes us animals.
Foamy Opals Dogs are capable of thinking and are very smart and people like you do them a disservice when you say "oh dogs are highly intelligent and then proceed to say that they act only out of "drive" and don't think at all.
This style of marker training is working well with my two year old GSD. If he does not come to the heel position correctly I say "no" and he knows to square off.....and look at me. He stays motivated. Thank you for the video...and the crickets in the background sound nice
I second the cricket sound 😁
Thank you for keeping these videos up. Really like coming back to these every now and then.
The best negative marker training.....
Very illustrative...video
Thankyou very much for making this video.
Great examples of how to give negative markers and rewarding with great timing! Thanks for the videos and information.
if it wasn't for the audio, anyone unfamiliar with this breed might think its sped up lol
Excellent. Thank you!
I did not know that this was a recognised method. I use clicker training and click when right. I have been taught by some trainers never to say "no" or just to keep waiting for dog to give the right move and have tried working with different methods to teach heelwork to music. I find that always using the word no said in the same way makes the dogs more eager to please and like the dog on the video the move is learnt quicker.
Negative markers make total sense. I mean what is that game that we all play when we were kids? How funny, I don't even know the name of it but it's where you've hidden something and then you say "hot or cold, warmer, warm, cool cold, freezing!..." That game would be harder to play without the "colder" parts, so... Make sense it would help! 😁
I'm VERY hopeful this will work with my Maltese because he's just so tiny. I'm really not comfortable putting things like shock or choke collars on him!
I think marking to say "no, try again" can help some dogs from becoming frustrated if you just stand here and wait for them :)
Try again is implied by giving the commsnd again.
Applied behavioral science has provided us something called the four quadrants of operant conditioning, which is a series of terms relating to the various influences that increase or reduce certain behaviors from happening. In short, here is what they are:
Positive punishment - adding something aversive to a situation to reduce unwanted behavior (i.e., hitting a dog)
Negative punishment - removing something desirable to reduce unwanted behavior (i.e., taking food or a favorite toy away from a dog)
Positive reinforcement - adding something desirable to increase the likelihood of wanted behavior reoccurring (i.e., giving a dog a food reward for responding to your cue, such as when you ask a dog to sit)
Negative reinforcement - removing something aversive to increase the frequency of a wanted behavior (i.e., stopping a continual shock in order to get a dog to return)
the dog certainly doesn't loose his drive, which means he isn't understanding the cue 100% with the - the marker word, though in the moment, showed the dog that what he just did wasn't right, it didn't seem to decrease the frequency that the dog repeated the wrong choice in the future. Would it not have been more effective to cue the dog with hand signal after the first "no" to show him that you wanted stand, rather than him spending time guessing? wouldnt it speed up the successful reps?
I use negative markers all the time with Ruby. I think its super important to use the no marker in teaching its just communication with your dog. Most of us accidentally teach this to our dogs anyways. Why not use it in training? How ever its important that when you do negative markers dont use in anger or frustration. I know when am teaching Ruby a new word. She will cycle through all her other words she knows. She never loses energy in our teaching lessons. I prefer the term teaching over training. Because what we really are doing is teaching them what words are anyways. Not much different than when teaching a human kid how to speak at first. Except dogs take a lot longer to learn our words and they say at this stage of developement.
I really love this kind of work! Thanks for sharing
Cindy has LOVELY home!!!
beautiful training session
@MegF142857
Operant conditioning works on most animals, and has been used on hermit crabs, turtles, goldfish, lizards, horses, etc.
Cindy is Amazing! Love Leesburg! Common sense communication with dogs. Most everything I have come across for behavior borderlines into abuse. I thank you guys so much for your continued dedication to dogs
Abuse??? Have you ever trained a dog doing this and there are multiple distractions? I train this way too, but during the early stages. I still use it during the later stages, but I promise you this... If a distraction such as a cat were to cause the dog to chase it across a busy highway, I promise you that a treat or tug toy is “Not” going to change the dogs minds no matter how many times you give the command/even scream bursting vessels in your neck. Fact,Fact,Fact. That’s where pressure release training comes in or for short, avoiding a ass whooping. Fact,Fact,Fact...
And I promise this. During a correction, the dog will not die.
But it could get splattered all down the highway and will surely die.
Great training!
if i recall, they do train their horses with markers. got to their website to see the vid.
Ugh. I've officially been obsessively studying dog training vids for too long - I read your comment "if I REcall" and trying to figure out what you meant. Then realized "oh. reCALL" 😆
Excelent !
my young puppy gets a bit frustrated when he gets the negative marker. nope. he will whine continually until he gets it right and then will stop whining when I say yes and move to reward him. this is always when moving from a sit to a down or from stand to a down. I'm worried that he will continue this anticipation/frustration whine as he ages? he is a 11 week old puppy.
Isn't a negative marker still a correction? I may need to look into the classifications, but to me anything made towards the dog, verbal or otherwise, in order to change a behaviour Ive always seen as a correction. Do 100% agree with this video though. Attitude is everything!
It depends how you condition your markers. Most people define a correction as a leash pop, or the use of some other aversive tool.This would be considered positive punishment and if you paired your punishment marker (No) with a leash correction then yes, a punishment marker would still have the same physiological effect on the dog as an actual leash correction due to classical conditioning. However, a lot of people pair their punishment marker with the withholding of a reward (negative punishment) which would by most peoples definition not be a 'correction'. So to answer your question, yes, it can be, but it just depends on how you condition your dog to the punishment marker (No/Nope) and how you define a 'correction'. Hope that helps!
Ah OK, yes perfect sense - I've always considered negative punishment to be a correction too as I'm manipulating the environment and therefore still 'doing' something (withholding) to elicit a different response to the one that I've received. Glad to know it's not seen as a correction. Absolutely awesome installing this when they are a pup. Thanks.
Do you know if anyone uses this method with horses or other animals?
How do you stop barking on little dog? Tanks
I get it but it the dog doesn’t seem to be increasing the frequency of correct behaviour.
What research do you have to support your training? Dale Hubbard, Ph.D.
Lol! Idiotic!
Well - Where is your research?
good luck mate
Dr. Dale Hubbard, Ph.D. As
Dr. Dale Hubbard, Ph.D. 😂😂😂 is that a joke..?
where can i buy your dvds ?
+Dinosaur Love Our DVDs can be purchased at leerburg.com
Does anyone know why she puts the dog in a down after uing the negative marker, even though the dog correct itself to the right poition? As in 03:58
Likely because the dog did not do the correct behavior upon the initial command. If she rewarded, the dog could learn to sit and then stand instead of standing right away.
I get it, but negative markers ARE corrections
Ok this is good for teaching a behavior, for teaching the dog not to do things, i dont think it be very quick and usefull. I absolutely ok with this but i think it is necessary to use some correction sometimes
Negative markers are corrections basically. Both communicate to a dog what you want vs. what they are doing.
Donelle DAMS that's what I was thinking. It's just a verbal correction.
I don't really think so, at least based on what I understand of the principles of operant conditioning. The word "correction" usually equals positive (additive) punishment, where the correction itself is a bad experience for the dog and makes the wrong behaviour less likely to occur.
I think saying "nope" calmly does not count as a "correction" because it is not in itself aversive to the dog. Instead, it is merely a *marker* of negative (subtractive) punishment - ie. a word that merely marks the withholding of reward, which is a punishment by not giving the food/toy.
On the other hand, a verbal correction (ie. positive (additive) punishment) would be saying "no!" harshly and loudly with the intent to scare/startle/negatively affect the dog, and the harsh sound itself is the punishment (rather than the withholding of the treat being the punishment).
(Edit: Leerburg replied to another comment along a similar vein.)
Why put the dog back in a down after the negative marker?
Pretty sure she was training the specific down-to-stand cue, which is what the dog was having trouble with (while sit-to-stand was solid)
I have also same breed Bruno
Please enlighten me on your term 'negative' in my experience with animal training (over 25 years) and particularly operant conditioning...seals, lions, tigers, bears etc in the zoo industry...and of course dog training, negative means the removal of something i.e - and positive means the addition of something i.e +. The basis of all animal training is, positive reinforcement and positive punishment as well as negative reinforcement and negative punishment. Videos like this and most others continue to be confusing for me because of the incorrect use of the words 'positive' and 'negative'. Most people understand that positive is good and negative is bad, this is incorrect unless I have missed a generation or two of animal training. And on another note, the 'word' you use is only a 'sound' to your dog until your dog associates it with an action followed by reinforcement or punishment, so no or nope could be replaced by bad, wrong or any other sound you wish....even good, your dog knows no different as it is only a sound until it starts to associate it with the behaviour. Your help in my understanding of the terms would be greatly appreciated.
Not sure where you missed the point or got confused. In reward based training (which is how we train - its not operant conditioning in the true sense) the dog gets a reward for the mark. You would probably call this a positive communication. The dog learns this through what we call 'charge the mark'.
When teaching a behavior we use successive approximation to reward and refine behaviors up to the point where we feel the dog understands the behavior we want it to do. We use positive markers and high value rewards to accomplish this.
If the dog makes a mistake in training the handler needs to determine if he help through luring, or does the handler use a negative marker of NO or NOPE. Which means "if you want your high value food reward you will need to try again". So in essence we are withholding the food reward. So we are taking the reward away.
I have been training dogs for over 55 years and come up through "the yank and crank era of dog training." Twenty or so years ago it took me awhile to wrap my head around this concept of this style of dog training. It has changed the way we communicate with our dogs.
I hope this answers your question. If you want to learn how to do this correctly I would recommend the video I did titled THE POWER OF TRAINIGN DOGS WITH FOOD. on Leerburg.com - 20 years ago people thought we were crazy to train dogs with food - simple because they didnt understand the system. Its simple b ut its not easy to master.
@@efrawley55 Thanks for your reply, I know how to train this way and teach it in my classes. Your terminology as far as animal training is what I am questioning here. Too many people use the words positive and negative incorrectly. People who aren't as educated think that positive is good and negative is bad. This is incorrect and you with your 55 years experience should know this. I am not against your technique, I think the terms that you and other trainers use should be clearer. I am all for reinforcement based training, note I use the word reinforcement not positive. Your 'negative marker' is simply a reprimand (which is actually a positive punisher) indicating to the dog it has failed the command (request as 'positive trainers' like to put it). I guess we are all in it for the good of the dog so each can use whatever words sound good to the youtube watching public.
!!!!!
Hello,which breed is this
Rush is a Belgian Malinois
Leerburg Enterprises, Inc Do you guys have any books based on Michael Ellis' training techniques? I am a huge fan and want to learn marker training for my dog.
No we don't have any books by Michael, but we do have several videos with him - you can see them all here: leerburg.com/ellisdvds.htm
Is ,my Bruno look like Rush,his mother was German shepherd,pls reply
_lh3.googleusercontent.com/3Ru5CosRhJ82NG4GyEsfXHkfq4m2Jr-Y7_j9KS1I3vr_I4-C-AFYsByeJXiXvwLqb3ZAxRkZxA_
_lh3.googleusercontent.com/iR57svHRODNRGSOP9rx3HKefaPQEewHrFzXI0wP3DO94a21w5HtyYcP_nZIkDNTtQmrN3IjooA_
Intro is bad but so is all iphone ringtones deal with it
"out of drive" lol basically you're saying a dog is a mindless creature when you believe in drives.
+Lazerous You clearly have no idea what drive means.
Foamy Opals You're right I don't because it doesn't exist
Drive is simply desire. If my dog sees a toy and instantly all thought process goes out the window and she lunges for the toy that is drive. Her little dog brain clicked and immediately she said 'GO GET THAT'
Prey drive.
My dog is paying attention to me, we may be playing a game, suddenly she catches a scent, her nose flies to the ground and she things "OOH SMELL. FOLLOW IT" Thats drive.
Training them in drive is harnessing the natural desire for these things and rewarding it. A dog trained in drive is going to be more energetic, and fast. (watch IPO obedience) a dog not trained in drive will be slower and more methodical (watch AKC obedience)
Humans have drive, every living thing has drive. We are born with it. Drive to eat, chase, fight, mate. It doesnt make us mindless. It makes us animals.
Nope. Makes her an animal with instincts so strong she follows them before she thinks about her actions.
Foamy Opals Dogs are capable of thinking and are very smart and people like you do them a disservice when you say "oh dogs are highly intelligent and then proceed to say that they act only out of "drive" and don't think at all.