I agree, the Old Republic history is awesome! The Disney trilogy is a failure in terms of Star Wars lore. The Jedi Knight games Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast do a better job with post Return of the Jedi lore. Not to mention the comics and graphic novels. Mara Jade Skywalker and Darth Caedus were far better characters then Rey and Kylo Ren were. Disney ruin every franchise they've acquired. They ruined both Star Wars and Marvel. I disregard any Star Wars lore written after 2012 and dismiss it as non canon because George Lucas did not write the main characters and it does not have plots that make any sense in the grand aspect of the franchise.
Truly the most underappreciated character in all of Star Wars. I'd love and hate to see a movie adaptation about her. I'd love it because her character would finally get more attention-- attention she deserves. I'd hate it because I don't trust writers and actors to represent her properly with the current state of the Star Wars series. They'd do her dirty, I can already see it. They'd turn her into a two dimensional villain, which is the antithesis of who she is.
@@Kevin-jb2pv Natalie Dormer played Margaery, the granddaughter. Diana Rigg was the one that played Olenna -- sadly, she had already passed away back in 2020.
People who think Kreia is a cold hearted manipulative "god is dead" bitch might as well have quitted at the beggar scene. The more you talk with her the more you realise where her sentiments and humanity lie. Culminating at the end of the game where if you have high influence and express your forgiveness, she responded: "I have thought of this moment, more than you know, that here, at this ending between us. If you could find it within yourself to spare one who has fallen so far. I wanted you to say those words and for that, I am grateful. But I dont want your mercy, I want you to be complete, as you were meant to be. To let the echoes die, and here the sound of the force again"
She is cold and manipulative, though. She tramples everyone and anyone. The only person she really cares about are Surik and Revan, and even the former she manipulates and deceives
@Mackey It is possible she wanted it do die until she saw all that the Exile could be. If the Force's will could be denied, then it didn't need to die.
Kreia draws heavily from Nietzsche’s philosophy, but she is not a nihilist, just as Nietzsche wasn’t either. She wants to kill the “god” of the Star Wars universe, but not because she believes there’s no meaning, but because she wants the galaxy to find its own meaning, free from the will of the force. Further comparing to Nietzsche, I suppose you could call the Exile Kreia’s version of the Übermensch, one who forges their own path and destiny freely. I think it’s very fitting considering that KOTOR’s an RPG.
@@hammerheadtheseawing3263 Absolutely, and importantly, she knows that life currently has a meaning under the Force. That is her problem. It is not a self-selected meaning, it is an unchosen assigned meaning that can destroy everything you know and love because of factors you never chose to be a part of. You're a pawn in it's grand game. It's the fusion of "you pass butter" and "a man chooses, a slave obeys", wanting to kill god for nonconsensually using everyone as toys and puppets. It's as close as you can get to the fictional characters being horrified that they're fictional characters without it getting meta like that.
Kreia was willing to be a genocidal monster to offer all sentient life a chance at freedom. It was a sacrifice she was willing to make, and did so consciously Edit: you are also misplacing apathy with abstinence. Abstinence is actively, and knowingly, refraining from making a choice, while apathy is a complete lack of care, abject indifference. That is why apathy is death.
Kreia feels like someone that was supposed to be in the OG Dune Saga or Legacy of Kain series but ended up in SW and said "Im here night as well drop some heavy philosophy and intellectual humility on the dorks"
I always felt kind of bad for Zez-Kai Ell. Of all the remaining Jedi masters, he seemed like the only one who was very much not on board with how The Exile was treated and not super pumped with everything else the council did but he just kept getting out-voted. I always got the impression that he was probably open-minded enough to eventually become an ally to a light-side Exile if he wasn't already duty-bound to go along with the rest of the council.
I agree with this. Kreia also specifically talks about how close Zez-Kai Ell was to giving up the force, which would make him probably the least indoctrinated of the three.
Oh s... I had never considered the whole "apathy is death" to not be Kreia, at first glance it seems like something she would say. However in a similar situation, on Dantooine when leaving the cave and encountering the Merc leader, you can "side with him" and still join the other side later, she even congratulates you on controlling the situation - she always praises/values understanding the situation and looking for the out of the box solutions over just choosing a side even if that side was hers. Anyway, amazing video, thank you.
One small point about the whole apathy is death thing, just because I did not understand if that is also how you presented it. Kreia is indeed a dark vision of the cave, but I think it aligns with her philosophy pretty well, here's why: In the vision, your choice is not simply Kreia or your allies. Your allies appear, and they (well, atton, and then the rest pile up) are adamant on punishing Kreia for falling to the dark side, as if that alone is a crime, regardless of whether she has taken any specific "evil" action yet. As I see it your choices are to either act dogmatically against the dark side, and judge someone for what they are rather than their actions, stand with Kreia, who granted is a bit trigger happy but did not initiate the aggresive dialogue "Atton did" or stand aside, and let your companions kill eachother in the name of dogma, and I think Kreia would hate that... anyway just a thought, I agree on the fact that Kreia is possibly one of the best characters in all of fiction, she has deffinately been my favourite for years now, also you might need to chill a little about the whole Revan thing, his history is still there, even though the conclusion of his saga in the Revan book was indeed dissapointing (and Meetra Surik's even more), plus maybe we should not expect the kind of philosophy that can be developed in 10-20 hours of gameplay from a 2 and a half hour movie? That's just setting yourself up for dissapointment. Just saying that I enjoyed the the Kreia analysis too much and then there was this whole "thing" in the middle like trying to listen to a great song, and suddenly my mother bursts in the house to put on the vacuum cleaner... anyway sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language and I simply could not put in the effort of checking again a comment :-p
Hey man thanks for the comment! No worries on your English I understand it perfectly. As for the dilemma of apathy, I think you make some good points however I still wouldn't be so quick to assume what Kreia would agree with. As I said, I don't necessarily think Kreia would teach apathy, I'm just not sure she would necessarily agree with "apathy is death". As you said, if we take no action, our companions would slaughter themselves in the name of dogma. Kreia, I believe, would actually prefer you allow that to happen than arbitrarily select a "side" and thus lowering yourself to their level. Not to mention, if taken literally within the context of the cave, the "correct" answer (in Kreia's mind) is usually the one which turns all of the visions hostile and thus apathy could be seen as the "correct" answer. As for the Revan thing I was primarily disappointed not because the MMO didn't add much, but because it took much away. By having Revan "brainwashed" by Vitiate rather than what was presented in Kotor 2, it takes away from the idea that Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity to unite the galaxy, weakening his character and the story of Kotor 2 massively. Either way, I appreciate your comment friend.
@@probablyswifty209 Cool! Since I really like talking about Kotor, I will just say that if I were to write the continuation for the MMO, I would never have written the Revan book. Instead I would start the MMO as it did, with the empire attacking a few centuries later, and throughout the 8 stories, I would have installed journals and holocrons, where the players would slowly piece together a story (not very detailed) about how Revan and Meetra Surik waged a shadowy war against the Empire (in the kind of obscure way that Kreia often talked about past wars to make them more epic) at the peak of it's power, when it was probably able to overtake the republic. They even made political aliances and created artificial powerplays to the point where they created an opening along with plenty of allies (they were both natural leaders after all) and they met the Godlike emperor in battle, where Meetra managed to wound his connection to the force and they both willingly sacrificed themselves to Kill him (Revan's final sacrifice). Then his far less powerful successor could not unite them and the Empire was in turmoil for centuries, during which time the republing was recovering from the mandalorian wars (as planned by both characters, and Meetra's companions were recreating the jedi order, since they were the lost jedi). Now it does not sound very impressive, but I believe that if you managed to add only a few personal messages from the characters, and a few ghost appearences ingame to help the main characters it would add a lot to the mysterious atmosphere around Revan, who in my opinion should never be treated as a character after the first game, but rather as a legend. You know, the classic less is more. Also, one more problem with Kreia, is that her conclusion, that the Force is pertty much the vilain, betraying every side when the time comes in order to maintain balance is spot on, and the story is 4000 years b4 the movies, so her knowledge had to be lost somewhere in time, accurate as it was. So I would also put an easter egg, where Kreia has hidden several Holocrons of her teachings in the Gallaxy, and People could come across them whenever.... Books, games, comics, movies etc. sorry for going on and on... but you know... it's Star Wars.
Pretty sure malacor was part of revan a plan all along. He sent those he couldn’t trust to be destroyed along with his enemies while his most loyal followers would be turned to the dark side by experiencing through the force what happened at malachor. I don’t think he predicted the wound in the force tho
Yea I’m pretty sure you are correct. I suppose in my drunken stupor I failed to take into account the fact that Kreia herself said that to the Jedi council. Thanks for letting me know!
@@probablyswifty209 as far as I'm concerned, darkside Revan is the canon one. He's this sort of Grand admiral Thrawn who, for a moment, did consider to abandon his old ways. But as he saw the little self-control the Republic held within its own structure, he decided to once again return to the Darkside.
@@JabamiLain More accurately, mostly Dark Side, with some major Light Side choices where Dark Side choices have no benefit. His actions were motivated by what he believed was most beneficial rather than adhering to a singular ideology or teaching. He learned the teachings of his enemies to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and in turn find out how to exploit them. The Dark Side has power to him, but he also learned that sometimes strength and control isn't the solution. I believe Revan canonically chose to destroy the Starforge later, only because fighting to control it and the Sith would prove difficult when Malak's followers were taught to constantly plot to betray their master's when given the opportunity. They would constantly challenge him for control of the Starforge and the Empire, except for when they are distracted by a common enemy. Light Side Revan destroys Malak's Empire by destroying the Star Forge, but Dark Side Revan in Kotor 2 seemed to have abandoned his Sith followers on Korriban to collapse without leadership when he disappeared to face the True Sith. Malak's Empire was not the army he needed, he wanted followers he could trust to wait for his call when he returns. Not people who would forget their loyalties to him without constant reminders.
Kreia should be treated on the same scale as actual irl philosophers, she would have loved debating and discussing with figures such as Nietzsche and Ayn Rand
Much of Kreia's philosophy is more or less based on a multitude of real world philosophies but molded into a Star Wars format with "the force". One reason I love KOTOR 2 so much is that by making the nature of reality a tangible "force" it is far easier to have deeper discussions on reality, it's just a shame that very few Star Wars IP's bother.
I've watched someone describe Kreia as an anti-villain, not necessarily evil, but her plan to end the force is kinda evil-ish to say. She has her own goals and ideals, rather dark if you ask me.
The early story of KotOR 2 isn't as complicated to understand as you imply: * The Exile was on the Harbinger because the Republic found her and wanted her help (namely to find Revan, per Onasi), but they didn't want her to know how important she was so they kept the nature of the help they needed vague. * Kreia somehow escaped Malachor V and got onto the Ebon Hawk (from what can be gathered from how she and T3 discuss that situation). Sion pursued her immediately with the Sith Warship; resulting in Kreia sending out a distress signal when they got near the Harbinger before she went into her death trance. The Sith likewise took a stealth approach when the Harbinger approached to raid the ship, and Sion (like Kreia) played dead.
“If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea.” “To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned.”
this is probably the best-written character in fiction and I'll die on this hill if I must. Chris Avelone is a genius and no one will convince me otherwise. this character is so deep. I must have watched 20 videos about her and I still find something new in each one. She is not my favourite, but she is the best-written character, sort of like Sylvanas for World of Warcraft. I hate Sylvanas, because she's well written, or you can say, I love to hate her and I want her to die every chance she gets. That tells you she is a great villain. However, Kreia is on a whole other level. unlike Sylvanas, she is not cartoonishly evil, she is so much deeper than that. my favourite Star Wars character is written by Chris Avellone and later on "Drew Karpyshyn". I don't know why, I just really like the Jedi Exile the best, my second favourite is Revan.
In many ways Darth Kreia is a character to look at as a role model not because of her ambition or her powers but because her philosophy has real world potential and it can help make anyone who feels they were lesser a chance to rise.
True tho, the mmo ruined Revans story 😢. I wish it had been different. Tho I like the idea of Vitiate and some of the mmo, the writing should’ve been better overall.
The whole return of the Exile was organized by Atriss so she was on the Harbinger because Atriss wanted to draw out the Triumvirate and manipulated the exile while spreading rumors of her existence.
Having a family/getting married went against the the Jedi council's policy but said it was "against the code" I want them to show me WHERE in the code it goes against. The force is a paradox. It empowers & imprisons, it binds the galaxy together & tears people apart
Emperor Vitiate is a character from the book named "Revan" by Drew Karpyshyn (writer for a KOTOR). Book is actually pretty good, so don't set Vitiate aside just because he also happen to appear in SWTOR.
So I want to know your thought’s on this question and like to know your answer. What would happen if Darth Revan, Alek and Meetra Surik were not dark during the Mandalorian Wars, the affect of the war, 2 war’s after it. By not sacrificing soldier’s, the destruction of Malachor V, how will this affect K.O.T.O.R.1 & K.O.T.O.R.2? I would like to know how this will affect character’s such as Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion and Kreia and Meetra Surik and more.
By not destroying malachor V, Kotor 1 and 2 fundamentally change. First off, sion and nihilus are non existent seeing as they were born of the echo which originated from malachor’s destruction. Secondly, meetra surik would’ve never been cut off from the force as she did, meaning she too would never of reached her abilities as in Kotor 2, though she would still likely be a Jedi. What would happen to Kreia I have no idea. However, if we assume the republic wins the war anyways (and revan never turns) then Kotor 1 and 2 never happen. This does, however, open up the galaxy to attack from the phantom threat from the unknown regions (the true sith). If you follow SWTOR canon, that means the infinite empire (although I don’t because I hate SWTOR lol)
@@probablyswifty209 Well I’ve started continuing the K.O.T.O.R.3 fanfic, here’s the backstory, not much different from the S.W.T.O.R Revan novel I feel. Copy & paste comment: Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic) (Backstory) Meetra Surik has ended the Dark Wars after defeating the Sith Triumvirate. The planet of Malachor V was destroyed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated once again. Meetra and some of her companion’s started rebuilding the Jedi Order, bringing the life to it after the Jedi were nearly wiped out by the Sith Triumvirate. (A year passed) T3 reveal’s to Meetra that he know’s about Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabouts, but wouldn’t tell her unless Bastila is with them. Meetra & T3 went to talk with Bastila of Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabout’s. T3 reveal’s that Prodigal Knight Revan is planning on something, something to fight the true Sith. He wanted T3 to tell everyone, remaining Jedi and the Republic of the True Sith Empire. [Showing a hologram of Prodigal Knight Revan’s message] He talk’s about how the True Sith Empire is even worse then what he remembered when he was Darth Revan. Their Sith Trooper’s are stronger then Darth Revan’s, they’re specially trained to fight the Jedi and resist the power of the Light Side. These Sith Lord’s and their order are far more vicious, powerful, uses a specially designed Crossgaurd Lightsaber that they wield, but believe more of the power of the Dark Side is enough to conquer and destroy the Jedi. Their ship’s are far more powerful, even their weakest ship’s are far stronger then even the greatest that the Republic has. This is the same Sith that existed 3,000 year’s ago and fought the Republic from the Great Hyperspace War. This Sith Empire, it’s ruled over by something far worse, powerful and terrifying. [End of Prodigal Knight Revan message] Bastila told Meetra that she sent T3 to go with Prodigal Knight Revan and must’ve returned to known space after being attacked when trying to return to the Republic. When Prodigal Knight Revan speak’s of something that is “far worse, powerful and terrifying”, she is reminded of something. She tell’s Meetra that she share’s a bond with Prodigal Knight Revan, and because of that, his vision is shared with her. She saw a vision that of something she couldn’t understand, something she couldn’t describe. She wanted to go with Meetra, but she has a child (Venar) to take care off so she put her trust in Meetra to find Prodigal Knight Revan. She give’s Meetra Darth Revan mask’s, worn during the Mandalorian Wars up until the Jedi Civil War. She hid it so Prodigal Knight Revan couldn’t regain all of Darth Revan’s memories at once, still she believe’s he’s close to gaining all of Darth Revan’s memories. (A day later) Meetra took the Ebon Hawk, brought along some of her companion’s (T3, Bao-Dur’s Remote & HK). She then starting venturing off far, far deep into the Unknown Region’s, following the path of where Darth Revan & Darth Malak once went when they became the Dark Lord’s of the Sith. The difference start’s with the prologue. Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic) [Torkross - prologue planet no.1] It has been a month since Meetra had left Republic space, she has ventured deep into Unknown Regions. She rested within the Ebon Hawk, then started to feel the Dark Side, but the thing is that she isn’t on a planet. Meetra is confused, concerned, she believe’s that she had entered the Sith Empire territory. But how can the Dark Side even be felt in space, not only that but doesn’t feel like it’s in just the area Meetra is in. It could be spread even further, maybe even throughout the entire galaxy, but how she asked herself. She put’s on her robe’s, grab’s her Purple Lightsaber and head’s to the Cockpit. Continue to travel throughout the empire and continue’s to feel the Dark Side. Meetra then sense’s a ship heading toward’s her way and was about to activate the HyperDrive to get out of there. However the Sith ship (called the Chaos Star) arrived and attack the Ebon Hawk and was damaged. Meetra drove the ship toward’s a planet and away from the Chaos Star, she crashed land into a mountain of a planet called Torkross. Meetra managed to keep the Ebon Hawk intact but it is still extremely damaged, she doesn’t believe that she can continue riding it. She and her companion’s (T3, Remote and HK) got out of the Ebon Hawk, Meetra feel’s the threat coming and they run off, hiding. Meetra use’s Force Cloak in order to hide from the Sith that are coming for her. She see’s a large city ahead, Meetra and her companion’s hid within a cave, which lead to the city. They traveled deep into the cave, fought off against beast’s and found their way into a tunnel which then lead into an underground mining facility which the worker’s are slave’s. These slave’s are mining for metal while in a very dangerous place and are looked over by these Sith Trooper’s who are far more dangerous then the once Darth Revan and the Sith Triumvirate had. She couldn’t stand and watch but she know’s she can’t fight against them, it’s too risky and so she reluctantly stealth their way around the facility and got out of there and found their way onto the surface of the city. This city reminded her of Nar Shaddaa, however it’s even worse, it is strong with the Force yet so lifeless and dangerous. City is so muted, darken grey, sky is very dark, it’s like nighttime but even darker. She travel’s through the city, yet while hiding and see’s Sith Trooper’s all over, no civilian’s, just slave’s and doesn’t feel like the world has any freedom to anyone. Prodigal Knight Revan was right, it feel’s like the Sith are focusing on making the Empire extremely powerful. They head into a building, head’s to the docking bay, tried to steal a ship but Meetra was hit by an immense Force Lightning and went unconscious. T3, Remote and HK were about to fight back but were quickly damaged.
27:13 the funniest thing is that they saw their flaws and teachings when you talk to them individually but when they get together it’s business as usual. They end up going into their old habits.
Amen brother, amen. When Disney took over and relegate everything into legend, taking out the crap that drag Revan through in the MMO is the only bright spot.
For anyone who appreciates philosophy, perhaps take a moment to read this short comment. Strength that is not your own is a fallacy. What exactly defines "your own?" I would argue that having a trusted friend who is willing to help you, and relying on them is not "relying on strength that is not your own." If your friend is willing to follow you, it's because of who you are. Here is an example. A person is typically born with 2 legs and 2 arms, because that is what they are. A human. Basically, when you're born, you receive certain species-specific body parts because that is what you are. Those parts are loyal to you and will do anything you ask of them until they're severed, you're paralyzed, or you die. So by Kreia's logic, the fact that you can lose these limbs in ANY circumstance makes them inherently not worth relying on. I really hope I was able to convey that coherently. I'm a little buzzed atm.
I understand what you mean, in fact, so does Kotor 2. The philosophy you have outlined is practically exactly in line with how Visas views things and explains her consistent debate with Kreia. I’m not saying either one is correct, but if I were to play devil’s advocate and argue from Kreia’a perspective I would say that although it may be true that having companions is a sort of “strength” it is not one which comes from within or one you can learn from. By doing things yourself, you become stronger and more resilient. By relying on others, you make yourself, in a way, dependent on them (no matter how small that may be). Of course, these are the views of Kreia, not mine. Personally, I would say that are both are correct to certain degrees. I tend to side more with visas on this point but I would say that if you can get something done on your own, there is certainly a strength to that.
@@probablyswifty209 Appreciate the response, the contents of it even moreso. I agree with you and Kreia about how we can grow dependent on companions. My idea was that we also grow dependent on our limbs, just as we do our friends. And that the dependence ultimately strengthens us for a net positive. It really is simply two different mindsets, I'd say. One sees the strengths of interdependence, and one sees the strengths of independence. Regardless of if I agree with all her points, I do love Kreia because she makes you think.
Kreia hates the force, and yet she uses the force, she *needs* the force in order to be able to see. For her eyes are blind. I don't think of this as hypocrisy on her part, but rather, I think she sees it as an unavoidable weakness within herself, I think it frustrates her. But just because it is unavoidable, that does not mean it is not a weakness. In fact, you could argue it makes it even more of a weakness. I think this also apply to what you say about our limbs. We *have* to rely on our limbs in order to accomplish the things we wish to accomplished. True enough, there are people who live without some or all their limbs or who are blind, or deaf, but while they are stronger in the sense that they do not rely in the limbs, in exchange they are forced to rely on other things,. The very reason we have ramps for people on wheel chairs, or blind canes, or braile text, etc is to accommodate for people who are disabled. In this sense, the weakness is unavoidable, abled people are weak because they depend on their limbs/senses, disabled people are weak because while they don't have one or more limbs/senses to depend on, they still depend on other things, be those things tools to allow them to more easily interact with the world or with others, or be those things other people to create a structure for accommodate for the special necessities that come from being disabled. So I think that to Kreia your own strength is specially your ability to use the tools at your disposal to achieve your goals, without relying on those tools. Be those 'tools' parts of yourself or your body, such as your limbs, be they actual tools, or be they your allies or friends, or even your enemies, if you can manage to use them to further your goals. I think she would say that there are none who are infinitely strong, who can rely on nothing at all besides themselves, and indeed, if you attempt this to its fullest, you'll end up following the path of the sith, attempting to accrue power to control all there is, but in truth be controlled by your own desire to control. Yet that, none the less, you should strive to be more independent rather than reliant.
@@nivircescrittore8304 I love your thoughts and I agree. Very well spoken. Hell, you've got me wanting to do a millionth playthrough. Thought provoking!
Revan wasn’t brainwashed in Swtor. He was held in prison for 300 years where the emperor probed his mind and used the darkside with the help of the dread masters to keep Revan alive. He was freed and then was killed and his light side half passed on. Due to the emperor probing Revans mind and keeping him alive for 300 years Revan split up into two halves and his dark side half took up a physical form after he was killed at the foundery and went a little nuts because that half still had the goal of killing the emperor like he did 300 years ago. After darkseid Revan was beaten he returned to the real revan who was a force ghost and Revan finally became whole again
I understand and you are correct, “brainwashed” probably wasn’t the correct term but i was just oversimplifying it. The point of what i was saying though was that the removal of Revan’s kotor 2 story greatly diminishes the character and the overall themes present in the old republic setting, as explained in the video.
They were a bunch of uncoordinated buffoons. Kreia and Nihlus weren't true sith and Sion was easy to talk down. The Original Sith and Reconstituted Sith were best.
@@matro2 Yet they did what no other Sith before them could do, although the Jedi/Republic were super weak after several wars, they did the first Jedi Purge.
So then if we r going to dismiss SWTOR by BioWare… then where was Reven at the end of these events in Kotor 2 there still a big plot whole there… unless I haven’t found the book or game that fills that in, which I am willing to accept. Just wondering. Loved ur video by the way
Hey thanks for the comment! If dismissing SWTOR, as far as I know the KOTOR timeline ends at KOTOR 2 in which it is hinted that the exile goes to find Revan on his quest somewhere in the unknown regions. What this quest was likely would've been featured in the since cancelled KOTOR 3. While I admit a somewhat unsatisfying conclusion to the timeline, I would still rather have an ambiguous ending than deal with all of the strange plot choices found in SWTOR. Of course, not all of them are awful, I just particularly dislike how most KOTOR characters were treated.
Hey. Liking the content though I do think the music is a bit too empowering and drowning out your voice volume 😅 Also i think the mic quality sounds different compared to your KOTOR 2 review video. That one sounded a bit more crisp and clear.
Hey Sam, thanks very much I’m glad you liked the video! I will admit I tend to get a bit carried away with the music but in my defense the volume is always a bit different in the actual editing software before I render it, I will take greater caution in the future to make it right however. As for the mic quality you are absolutely right, I have moved since the kotor 2 video and my room has far more echo lmao. Either way I appreciate the feedback greatly!
@@probablyswifty209 What editing software do you use? Adobe Premiere i think has some pretty good tools to auto-adjust volumes and even have the music DUCK when you're talking. Not sure about Da Vinci tho...
@@probablyswifty209 What mic are you using by the way? I think most issues with microphones can be managed by good mic technique. Of course, not every mic is the same so I'd need to know what it is first :p
SamBlips I am currently using the free version of Da Vinci Resolve and a MAONO brand USB 192KHZ/24Bit microphone. I would provide more details but I’m in class right now lmao. The mic was around 50 bucks all things included but I purchased it on sale so it was normally more expensive. I am sure I could equalize my audio within the editing software itself but I’m just not very good at it as I’m sure you could tell.
never was able to listen to her at the time of playing the game myself like in retrospect I understand the value of her teachings and efforts but at the time I had too strong of a "fuck you then I got better shit to do than listen to you piss and moan and second-guess me no matter what I do" syndrome had no patience to be constantly negged and picked at still dont tbh
While I understand that the Exile is intended to be canonically female, i think the romance option between the male exile and Breana is way more interesting
It’s hard to say. I’d think that Kreia would respect Jolee to an extent considering he refused to follow the dogma of the Jedi order. However, I think that they would have very different outlooks on how to deal with situations. Particularly, I think Jolee would find Kreia to be a miserable old woman and Kreia would see Jolee as somewhat of a weak-willed fool. Thing is, Kreia sees basically everyone as an idiot so comparatively speaking they would get along better than most.
@@probablyswifty209 Thank’s for the answer, I was thinking about how Jolee wouldn’t agree with Kreia like on Nar Shaddaa with the Exile helping someone with credit’s.
@@probablyswifty209 Sorry for asking more question’s, but I feel like your answer’s are staisfying (misspelling) due to how knowledgable you are of Kreia and seem’s like for the other cast of both K.O.T.O.R game’s. Idk if you’d answer some here, short and sweet to the point (if that’s possible). 1. What would Kreia think of Anakin / Darth Vader as a character / person and his life? 2. What would Kreia think of the K.O.T.O.R.1 cast? 3. What would Kreia think of Yoda & Palpatine? 4. What does Kreia think of Player / Prodgial Knight Revan? 5. Would Kreia respect Jolee the most but under Darth Revan & Meetra Surik / Jedi Exile?
@@75JUNAKI Very true. I’d say the biggest disagreement between Kreia and Jolee would be on love, romantic or otherwise (love for thy neighbor). Jolee, much like Visas in Kotor 2, would advise you to take great care of your relationships with others, since they would see that interconnection as a strength. Kreia, on the other hand, would think that no matter how apparently immediate and beneficial, relying on others is a weakness. Whichever is correct is left purposefully vague and one of the many reasons I love these games.
I was a foolish teenager when I first started to try and analyse Kreia, so I couldn't even start to grasp the correct meaning behind her philosophy. But I've learned since then. I'm finally starting to understand what she wanted to teach. How can I be so sure about that ? -"Serial Experiments Lain" taught me how there are actually many "us", we can choose which ones we want to give meaning to, and how we can't base our identities solely on someone else's idea on us; "Youjo Senki" taught me the importance of freedom from the metaphysical in favor of our own evolution; -Spartan history taught me the importance of strenght in brain, brawn and spirit; -In "Mass Effect", I tried to put these lessons into practice, refining their meaning and application; -And throught "Shin Megami Tensei", I learned a perfect status quo is completely and utterly unachievable, even if you are a transhumanist. All I have left to know, is if I would be the apprentice she wanted me to be.
I unironically hate that it is impossible for so many content creators to talk about KOTOR2 and Kreia now just entirely on its own merits with out having to make asides attacking TLJ. Literally its a baseline assumption anyone who likes SW enough to make content about it probably didnt like that movie, we know. You dont like TLJ. This was assumed before I got here. And don't get me wrong, I don't mean this to read as an attack, Just a poorly communicated attempt at saying: I at least, Come for the love and the hate detracts.
if i recall correctly i only mentioned tlj as a point of contrast rather than just throwing it in there but yea i do get that tlj hate is pretty stale at this point lmao
@@probablyswifty209 yeah and I happened to have just watched another video on it right before hand that also brought it up and I'm in the minority camp of liked the sequels for what they were, sure it's no KOTOR, or Deceived but I had fun. And I think tlj has the best cinematography in the films so it hits me weird y'know
@@katmannsson that’s totally cool i mean i happen to really dislike the sequels but who am i to stop someone from enjoying something meant to be fun. for instance as much as i think rise of skywalker is an awful movie it was a super fun watch with me and my buddy when we saw it in theaters. i just wanted to point out tlj as a poor example of subverting expectations and the idea of “deconstructing” star wars whereas kotor 2 did it much better in my opinion.
Dude maybe if you tried to think about the criticism of that film and acknowledged them you couldn’t be mad when somebody compares a vastly better executed story with the same purpose to rian johnsons fat homeless fanfic
without listening to know what this means, I say right off the bat everything is ideology, thus it's futile to not adopt one given you'll be given one by existence itself regarless therefore be manipulated
it more so has to do with the idea that following an arbitrary set of ideals rather than doing what is right in any given situation weakens people. obviously, what is “right” depend on the individual but the rejection of imprisoning oneself to a single set of beliefs is a core teaching of kreia.
@@probablyswifty209 the core idea of Kreia is betrayal, meaning ironically the idea that one cannot trust any idea less one be betrayed eventually just as Kreia was betrayed, and that is supposedly the ultimate secret of power. I deny that, the idea of truth is absolute. As any teaching itself is the truth also, so the idea that ideology is futile is saying any teaching is futile, a self contradiction. Truth is inexorably God, forever. Embrace it or dispair. The truth is that the infinite truth is difficult to impossible to hold by finite beings, therefore there is always a higher degree of truth to be had, and holding to any half truth is of course betrayal to the idea of truth which is an endless journey. As Jesus Christ said, be a passerby
Looking back on Kotor, especially after the Disney trilogy, is pretty awesome. As far as I'm concerned that was the Golden age of Star wars.
I agree, the Old Republic history is awesome! The Disney trilogy is a failure in terms of Star Wars lore. The Jedi Knight games Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast do a better job with post Return of the Jedi lore. Not to mention the comics and graphic novels. Mara Jade Skywalker and Darth Caedus were far better characters then Rey and Kylo Ren were. Disney ruin every franchise they've acquired. They ruined both Star Wars and Marvel. I disregard any Star Wars lore written after 2012 and dismiss it as non canon because George Lucas did not write the main characters and it does not have plots that make any sense in the grand aspect of the franchise.
Until you remember vitiates brainwahsing revan and the exile being jobbed borderline offscreen.
Kreia is definitely the most complex character in Star Wars. I never felt like I should hate her. In many ways I admire her.
She's stopod.
@@Th3BigBoy
What's a stopod is that like a nerf herder
@@morbidlyobeserobocop3038 You are very smurty pants!
@@Th3BigBoy no u stopod.
@@Kevin-jb2pv Yes. Me stopod but you stipid.
Truly the most underappreciated character in all of Star Wars. I'd love and hate to see a movie adaptation about her. I'd love it because her character would finally get more attention-- attention she deserves. I'd hate it because I don't trust writers and actors to represent her properly with the current state of the Star Wars series. They'd do her dirty, I can already see it. They'd turn her into a two dimensional villain, which is the antithesis of who she is.
I'd love to see her played by Natalie Dormer, who played Olenna Tyrell in Game of Thrones. She'd be great for the part.
@@Kevin-jb2pv Natalie Dormer played Margaery, the granddaughter. Diana Rigg was the one that played Olenna -- sadly, she had already passed away back in 2020.
The wouldn’t do her justice. She doesn’t fit the woke narrative as she is way too much of a nuanced character.
People who think Kreia is a cold hearted manipulative "god is dead" bitch might as well have quitted at the beggar scene. The more you talk with her the more you realise where her sentiments and humanity lie. Culminating at the end of the game where if you have high influence and express your forgiveness, she responded: "I have thought of this moment, more than you know, that here, at this ending between us. If you could find it within yourself to spare one who has fallen so far. I wanted you to say those words and for that, I am grateful. But I dont want your mercy, I want you to be complete, as you were meant to be. To let the echoes die, and here the sound of the force again"
I agree, while some of Kreia's viewpoints are definitely nihilistic, to reduce her entire philosophy to "Star Wars Nihilism" would be foolish.
She is cold and manipulative, though. She tramples everyone and anyone. The only person she really cares about are Surik and Revan, and even the former she manipulates and deceives
@Mackey It is possible she wanted it do die until she saw all that the Exile could be.
If the Force's will could be denied, then it didn't need to die.
Kreia draws heavily from Nietzsche’s philosophy, but she is not a nihilist, just as Nietzsche wasn’t either.
She wants to kill the “god” of the Star Wars universe, but not because she believes there’s no meaning, but because she wants the galaxy to find its own meaning, free from the will of the force.
Further comparing to Nietzsche, I suppose you could call the Exile Kreia’s version of the Übermensch, one who forges their own path and destiny freely. I think it’s very fitting considering that KOTOR’s an RPG.
@@hammerheadtheseawing3263 Absolutely, and importantly, she knows that life currently has a meaning under the Force. That is her problem. It is not a self-selected meaning, it is an unchosen assigned meaning that can destroy everything you know and love because of factors you never chose to be a part of. You're a pawn in it's grand game. It's the fusion of "you pass butter" and "a man chooses, a slave obeys", wanting to kill god for nonconsensually using everyone as toys and puppets. It's as close as you can get to the fictional characters being horrified that they're fictional characters without it getting meta like that.
Kreia was willing to be a genocidal monster to offer all sentient life a chance at freedom.
It was a sacrifice she was willing to make, and did so consciously
Edit: you are also misplacing apathy with abstinence. Abstinence is actively, and knowingly, refraining from making a choice, while apathy is a complete lack of care, abject indifference. That is why apathy is death.
I think that was the point of the dark side cave. It was trying to conflate the two in order to turn you.
"Worse than death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds the beasts and insects."
How it really was talking to kreia:
“Light side point gained”
“Dark side point gained”
“Influence gained: kreia”
“Influence lost: kreia”
Kreia feels like someone that was supposed to be in the OG Dune Saga or Legacy of Kain series but ended up in SW and said "Im here night as well drop some heavy philosophy and intellectual humility on the dorks"
I've heard this story so many times, but I couldn't stop listening to you. Well done man. Goosebumps.
I'm glad there's other people who, like me, cannot get enough kotor
Some of the best KOTOR content I've seen in a good long while. Keep it up!
I always felt kind of bad for Zez-Kai Ell. Of all the remaining Jedi masters, he seemed like the only one who was very much not on board with how The Exile was treated and not super pumped with everything else the council did but he just kept getting out-voted. I always got the impression that he was probably open-minded enough to eventually become an ally to a light-side Exile if he wasn't already duty-bound to go along with the rest of the council.
I agree with this. Kreia also specifically talks about how close Zez-Kai Ell was to giving up the force, which would make him probably the least indoctrinated of the three.
Oh s... I had never considered the whole "apathy is death" to not be Kreia, at first glance it seems like something she would say. However in a similar situation, on Dantooine when leaving the cave and encountering the Merc leader, you can "side with him" and still join the other side later, she even congratulates you on controlling the situation - she always praises/values understanding the situation and looking for the out of the box solutions over just choosing a side even if that side was hers. Anyway, amazing video, thank you.
Thanks very much I am glad you enjoyed it
One small point about the whole apathy is death thing, just because I did not understand if that is also how you presented it. Kreia is indeed a dark vision of the cave, but I think it aligns with her philosophy pretty well, here's why: In the vision, your choice is not simply Kreia or your allies. Your allies appear, and they (well, atton, and then the rest pile up) are adamant on punishing Kreia for falling to the dark side, as if that alone is a crime, regardless of whether she has taken any specific "evil" action yet. As I see it your choices are to either act dogmatically against the dark side, and judge someone for what they are rather than their actions, stand with Kreia, who granted is a bit trigger happy but did not initiate the aggresive dialogue "Atton did" or stand aside, and let your companions kill eachother in the name of dogma, and I think Kreia would hate that... anyway just a thought, I agree on the fact that Kreia is possibly one of the best characters in all of fiction, she has deffinately been my favourite for years now, also you might need to chill a little about the whole Revan thing, his history is still there, even though the conclusion of his saga in the Revan book was indeed dissapointing (and Meetra Surik's even more), plus maybe we should not expect the kind of philosophy that can be developed in 10-20 hours of gameplay from a 2 and a half hour movie? That's just setting yourself up for dissapointment. Just saying that I enjoyed the the Kreia analysis too much and then there was this whole "thing" in the middle like trying to listen to a great song, and suddenly my mother bursts in the house to put on the vacuum cleaner... anyway sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language and I simply could not put in the effort of checking again a comment :-p
Hey man thanks for the comment! No worries on your English I understand it perfectly. As for the dilemma of apathy, I think you make some good points however I still wouldn't be so quick to assume what Kreia would agree with. As I said, I don't necessarily think Kreia would teach apathy, I'm just not sure she would necessarily agree with "apathy is death". As you said, if we take no action, our companions would slaughter themselves in the name of dogma. Kreia, I believe, would actually prefer you allow that to happen than arbitrarily select a "side" and thus lowering yourself to their level. Not to mention, if taken literally within the context of the cave, the "correct" answer (in Kreia's mind) is usually the one which turns all of the visions hostile and thus apathy could be seen as the "correct" answer. As for the Revan thing I was primarily disappointed not because the MMO didn't add much, but because it took much away. By having Revan "brainwashed" by Vitiate rather than what was presented in Kotor 2, it takes away from the idea that Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity to unite the galaxy, weakening his character and the story of Kotor 2 massively. Either way, I appreciate your comment friend.
@@probablyswifty209 Cool! Since I really like talking about Kotor, I will just say that if I were to write the continuation for the MMO, I would never have written the Revan book. Instead I would start the MMO as it did, with the empire attacking a few centuries later, and throughout the 8 stories, I would have installed journals and holocrons, where the players would slowly piece together a story (not very detailed) about how Revan and Meetra Surik waged a shadowy war against the Empire (in the kind of obscure way that Kreia often talked about past wars to make them more epic) at the peak of it's power, when it was probably able to overtake the republic. They even made political aliances and created artificial powerplays to the point where they created an opening along with plenty of allies (they were both natural leaders after all) and they met the Godlike emperor in battle, where Meetra managed to wound his connection to the force and they both willingly sacrificed themselves to Kill him (Revan's final sacrifice). Then his far less powerful successor could not unite them and the Empire was in turmoil for centuries, during which time the republing was recovering from the mandalorian wars (as planned by both characters, and Meetra's companions were recreating the jedi order, since they were the lost jedi). Now it does not sound very impressive, but I believe that if you managed to add only a few personal messages from the characters, and a few ghost appearences ingame to help the main characters it would add a lot to the mysterious atmosphere around Revan, who in my opinion should never be treated as a character after the first game, but rather as a legend. You know, the classic less is more. Also, one more problem with Kreia, is that her conclusion, that the Force is pertty much the vilain, betraying every side when the time comes in order to maintain balance is spot on, and the story is 4000 years b4 the movies, so her knowledge had to be lost somewhere in time, accurate as it was. So I would also put an easter egg, where Kreia has hidden several Holocrons of her teachings in the Gallaxy, and People could come across them whenever.... Books, games, comics, movies etc. sorry for going on and on... but you know... it's Star Wars.
I love the super serious music playing while you go “the Jedi are fucking dumb!” Love your video bro hope you go far
Pretty sure malacor was part of revan a plan all along. He sent those he couldn’t trust to be destroyed along with his enemies while his most loyal followers would be turned to the dark side by experiencing through the force what happened at malachor. I don’t think he predicted the wound in the force tho
Yea I’m pretty sure you are correct. I suppose in my drunken stupor I failed to take into account the fact that Kreia herself said that to the Jedi council. Thanks for letting me know!
@@probablyswifty209 as far as I'm concerned, darkside Revan is the canon one. He's this sort of Grand admiral Thrawn who, for a moment, did consider to abandon his old ways. But as he saw the little self-control the Republic held within its own structure, he decided to once again return to the Darkside.
@@JabamiLain
More accurately, mostly Dark Side, with some major Light Side choices where Dark Side choices have no benefit. His actions were motivated by what he believed was most beneficial rather than adhering to a singular ideology or teaching. He learned the teachings of his enemies to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and in turn find out how to exploit them. The Dark Side has power to him, but he also learned that sometimes strength and control isn't the solution.
I believe Revan canonically chose to destroy the Starforge later, only because fighting to control it and the Sith would prove difficult when Malak's followers were taught to constantly plot to betray their master's when given the opportunity. They would constantly challenge him for control of the Starforge and the Empire, except for when they are distracted by a common enemy. Light Side Revan destroys Malak's Empire by destroying the Star Forge, but Dark Side Revan in Kotor 2 seemed to have abandoned his Sith followers on Korriban to collapse without leadership when he disappeared to face the True Sith. Malak's Empire was not the army he needed, he wanted followers he could trust to wait for his call when he returns. Not people who would forget their loyalties to him without constant reminders.
Weird moment when I hear my own opinions just suddenly spoken out loud in someone elses voice
Kreia should be treated on the same scale as actual irl philosophers, she would have loved debating and discussing with figures such as Nietzsche and Ayn Rand
Much of Kreia's philosophy is more or less based on a multitude of real world philosophies but molded into a Star Wars format with "the force". One reason I love KOTOR 2 so much is that by making the nature of reality a tangible "force" it is far easier to have deeper discussions on reality, it's just a shame that very few Star Wars IP's bother.
I've watched someone describe Kreia as an anti-villain, not necessarily evil, but her plan to end the force is kinda evil-ish to say. She has her own goals and ideals, rather dark if you ask me.
This video is incredible🔥🔥🔥 Great work man. Kreia is my favorite Star Wars character of all time. Just a nonstop sea of knowledge
The early story of KotOR 2 isn't as complicated to understand as you imply:
* The Exile was on the Harbinger because the Republic found her and wanted her help (namely to find Revan, per Onasi), but they didn't want her to know how important she was so they kept the nature of the help they needed vague.
* Kreia somehow escaped Malachor V and got onto the Ebon Hawk (from what can be gathered from how she and T3 discuss that situation). Sion pursued her immediately with the Sith Warship; resulting in Kreia sending out a distress signal when they got near the Harbinger before she went into her death trance. The Sith likewise took a stealth approach when the Harbinger approached to raid the ship, and Sion (like Kreia) played dead.
“If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea.”
“To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned.”
Omg! Do a character analysis on Fortnite Jonesy next!
I don’t believe that’s gonna happen
Actually it will
@@probablyswifty209 thank y for changing your mind
Dude u dis not just disrespect kreia with a fortnite refrence lmao 🤣
this is probably the best-written character in fiction and I'll die on this hill if I must. Chris Avelone is a genius and no one will convince me otherwise. this character is so deep. I must have watched 20 videos about her and I still find something new in each one. She is not my favourite, but she is the best-written character, sort of like Sylvanas for World of Warcraft. I hate Sylvanas, because she's well written, or you can say, I love to hate her and I want her to die every chance she gets. That tells you she is a great villain. However, Kreia is on a whole other level. unlike Sylvanas, she is not cartoonishly evil, she is so much deeper than that. my favourite Star Wars character is written by Chris Avellone and later on "Drew Karpyshyn". I don't know why, I just really like the Jedi Exile the best, my second favourite is Revan.
Kreia taught me what they actually meant by 'bring balance' to The Force. She also taught me how to understand how The Force works.
a work of art!!!!!!!
In many ways Darth Kreia is a character to look at as a role model not because of her ambition or her powers but because her philosophy has real world potential and it can help make anyone who feels they were lesser a chance to rise.
Kotor took Star Wars lore and took it to a whole new level
True tho, the mmo ruined Revans story 😢. I wish it had been different.
Tho I like the idea of Vitiate and some of the mmo, the writing should’ve been better overall.
The whole return of the Exile was organized by Atriss so she was on the Harbinger because Atriss wanted to draw out the Triumvirate and manipulated the exile while spreading rumors of her existence.
Yes, I do believe I vaguely remember that from the game. Thanks for reminding me :)
Thanks for the video. Love it
Having a family/getting married went against the the Jedi council's policy but said it was "against the code"
I want them to show me WHERE in the code it goes against.
The force is a paradox. It empowers & imprisons, it binds the galaxy together & tears people apart
Emperor Vitiate is a character from the book named "Revan" by Drew Karpyshyn (writer for a KOTOR). Book is actually pretty good, so don't set Vitiate aside just because he also happen to appear in SWTOR.
I wasn’t aware of that, but the criticism was more about the story of SWTOR itself rather than any individual character
Holy shit, I'm stunned, this is a great video.
Thanks man! I’m glad you enjoyed it
Absolutely excellent analysis. 1 like from me
I’m glad you enjoyed my friend
So I want to know your thought’s on this question and like to know your answer.
What would happen if Darth Revan, Alek and Meetra Surik were not dark during the Mandalorian Wars, the affect of the war, 2 war’s after it.
By not sacrificing soldier’s, the destruction of Malachor V, how will this affect K.O.T.O.R.1 & K.O.T.O.R.2?
I would like to know how this will affect character’s such as Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion and Kreia and Meetra Surik and more.
By not destroying malachor V, Kotor 1 and 2 fundamentally change. First off, sion and nihilus are non existent seeing as they were born of the echo which originated from malachor’s destruction. Secondly, meetra surik would’ve never been cut off from the force as she did, meaning she too would never of reached her abilities as in Kotor 2, though she would still likely be a Jedi. What would happen to Kreia I have no idea. However, if we assume the republic wins the war anyways (and revan never turns) then Kotor 1 and 2 never happen. This does, however, open up the galaxy to attack from the phantom threat from the unknown regions (the true sith). If you follow SWTOR canon, that means the infinite empire (although I don’t because I hate SWTOR lol)
@@probablyswifty209
Well I’ve started continuing the K.O.T.O.R.3 fanfic, here’s the backstory, not much different from the S.W.T.O.R Revan novel I feel.
Copy & paste comment:
Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic)
(Backstory)
Meetra Surik has ended the Dark Wars after defeating the Sith Triumvirate.
The planet of Malachor V was destroyed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated once again.
Meetra and some of her companion’s started rebuilding the Jedi Order, bringing the life to it after the Jedi were nearly wiped out by the Sith Triumvirate.
(A year passed)
T3 reveal’s to Meetra that he know’s about Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabouts, but wouldn’t tell her unless Bastila is with them.
Meetra & T3 went to talk with Bastila of Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabout’s.
T3 reveal’s that Prodigal Knight Revan is planning on something, something to fight the true Sith.
He wanted T3 to tell everyone, remaining Jedi and the Republic of the True Sith Empire.
[Showing a hologram of Prodigal Knight Revan’s message]
He talk’s about how the True Sith Empire is even worse then what he remembered when he was Darth Revan.
Their Sith Trooper’s are stronger then Darth Revan’s, they’re specially trained to fight the Jedi and resist the power of the Light Side.
These Sith Lord’s and their order are far more vicious, powerful, uses a specially designed Crossgaurd Lightsaber that they wield, but believe more of the power of the Dark Side is enough to conquer and destroy the Jedi.
Their ship’s are far more powerful, even their weakest ship’s are far stronger then even the greatest that the Republic has.
This is the same Sith that existed 3,000 year’s ago and fought the Republic from the Great Hyperspace War.
This Sith Empire, it’s ruled over by something far worse, powerful and terrifying.
[End of Prodigal Knight Revan message]
Bastila told Meetra that she sent T3 to go with Prodigal Knight Revan and must’ve returned to known space after being attacked when trying to return to the Republic.
When Prodigal Knight Revan speak’s of something that is “far worse, powerful and terrifying”, she is reminded of something.
She tell’s Meetra that she share’s a bond with Prodigal Knight Revan, and because of that, his vision is shared with her.
She saw a vision that of something she couldn’t understand, something she couldn’t describe.
She wanted to go with Meetra, but she has a child (Venar) to take care off so she put her trust in Meetra to find Prodigal Knight Revan.
She give’s Meetra Darth Revan mask’s, worn during the Mandalorian Wars up until the Jedi Civil War.
She hid it so Prodigal Knight Revan couldn’t regain all of Darth Revan’s memories at once, still she believe’s he’s close to gaining all of Darth Revan’s memories.
(A day later)
Meetra took the Ebon Hawk, brought along some of her companion’s (T3, Bao-Dur’s Remote & HK).
She then starting venturing off far, far deep into the Unknown Region’s, following the path of where Darth Revan & Darth Malak once went when they became the Dark Lord’s of the Sith.
The difference start’s with the prologue.
Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic)
[Torkross - prologue planet no.1]
It has been a month since Meetra had left Republic space, she has ventured deep into Unknown Regions.
She rested within the Ebon Hawk, then started to feel the Dark Side, but the thing is that she isn’t on a planet.
Meetra is confused, concerned, she believe’s that she had entered the Sith Empire territory.
But how can the Dark Side even be felt in space, not only that but doesn’t feel like it’s in just the area Meetra is in.
It could be spread even further, maybe even throughout the entire galaxy, but how she asked herself.
She put’s on her robe’s, grab’s her Purple Lightsaber and head’s to the Cockpit.
Continue to travel throughout the empire and continue’s to feel the Dark Side.
Meetra then sense’s a ship heading toward’s her way and was about to activate the HyperDrive to get out of there.
However the Sith ship (called the Chaos Star) arrived and attack the Ebon Hawk and was damaged.
Meetra drove the ship toward’s a planet and away from the Chaos Star, she crashed land into a mountain of a planet called Torkross.
Meetra managed to keep the Ebon Hawk intact but it is still extremely damaged, she doesn’t believe that she can continue riding it.
She and her companion’s (T3, Remote and HK) got out of the Ebon Hawk, Meetra feel’s the threat coming and they run off, hiding.
Meetra use’s Force Cloak in order to hide from the Sith that are coming for her.
She see’s a large city ahead, Meetra and her companion’s hid within a cave, which lead to the city.
They traveled deep into the cave, fought off against beast’s and found their way into a tunnel which then lead into an underground mining facility which the worker’s are slave’s.
These slave’s are mining for metal while in a very dangerous place and are looked over by these Sith Trooper’s who are far more dangerous then the once Darth Revan and the Sith Triumvirate had.
She couldn’t stand and watch but she know’s she can’t fight against them, it’s too risky and so she reluctantly stealth their way around the facility and got out of there and found their way onto the surface of the city.
This city reminded her of Nar Shaddaa, however it’s even worse, it is strong with the Force yet so lifeless and dangerous.
City is so muted, darken grey, sky is very dark, it’s like nighttime but even darker.
She travel’s through the city, yet while hiding and see’s Sith Trooper’s all over, no civilian’s, just slave’s and doesn’t feel like the world has any freedom to anyone.
Prodigal Knight Revan was right, it feel’s like the Sith are focusing on making the Empire extremely powerful.
They head into a building, head’s to the docking bay, tried to steal a ship but Meetra was hit by an immense Force Lightning and went unconscious.
T3, Remote and HK were about to fight back but were quickly damaged.
27:13 the funniest thing is that they saw their flaws and teachings when you talk to them individually but when they get together it’s business as usual. They end up going into their old habits.
Kreia as a fictional character is more compelling and deeper then most real people lol
Great video!
Much appreciated brother
Kreia predicted the events of episodes 1- 6
This break down was fire 🔥
12:00 Ok, you win. Anyone willing to shit on TOR is a friend of mine.
Amen brother, amen. When Disney took over and relegate everything into legend, taking out the crap that drag Revan through in the MMO is the only bright spot.
For anyone who appreciates philosophy, perhaps take a moment to read this short comment.
Strength that is not your own is a fallacy. What exactly defines "your own?" I would argue that having a trusted friend who is willing to help you, and relying on them is not "relying on strength that is not your own." If your friend is willing to follow you, it's because of who you are. Here is an example. A person is typically born with 2 legs and 2 arms, because that is what they are. A human. Basically, when you're born, you receive certain species-specific body parts because that is what you are. Those parts are loyal to you and will do anything you ask of them until they're severed, you're paralyzed, or you die. So by Kreia's logic, the fact that you can lose these limbs in ANY circumstance makes them inherently not worth relying on.
I really hope I was able to convey that coherently. I'm a little buzzed atm.
I understand what you mean, in fact, so does Kotor 2. The philosophy you have outlined is practically exactly in line with how Visas views things and explains her consistent debate with Kreia. I’m not saying either one is correct, but if I were to play devil’s advocate and argue from Kreia’a perspective I would say that although it may be true that having companions is a sort of “strength” it is not one which comes from within or one you can learn from. By doing things yourself, you become stronger and more resilient. By relying on others, you make yourself, in a way, dependent on them (no matter how small that may be). Of course, these are the views of Kreia, not mine. Personally, I would say that are both are correct to certain degrees. I tend to side more with visas on this point but I would say that if you can get something done on your own, there is certainly a strength to that.
@@probablyswifty209 Appreciate the response, the contents of it even moreso. I agree with you and Kreia about how we can grow dependent on companions. My idea was that we also grow dependent on our limbs, just as we do our friends. And that the dependence ultimately strengthens us for a net positive. It really is simply two different mindsets, I'd say. One sees the strengths of interdependence, and one sees the strengths of independence. Regardless of if I agree with all her points, I do love Kreia because she makes you think.
Kreia hates the force, and yet she uses the force, she *needs* the force in order to be able to see. For her eyes are blind. I don't think of this as hypocrisy on her part, but rather, I think she sees it as an unavoidable weakness within herself, I think it frustrates her. But just because it is unavoidable, that does not mean it is not a weakness. In fact, you could argue it makes it even more of a weakness. I think this also apply to what you say about our limbs.
We *have* to rely on our limbs in order to accomplish the things we wish to accomplished. True enough, there are people who live without some or all their limbs or who are blind, or deaf, but while they are stronger in the sense that they do not rely in the limbs, in exchange they are forced to rely on other things,. The very reason we have ramps for people on wheel chairs, or blind canes, or braile text, etc is to accommodate for people who are disabled.
In this sense, the weakness is unavoidable, abled people are weak because they depend on their limbs/senses, disabled people are weak because while they don't have one or more limbs/senses to depend on, they still depend on other things, be those things tools to allow them to more easily interact with the world or with others, or be those things other people to create a structure for accommodate for the special necessities that come from being disabled.
So I think that to Kreia your own strength is specially your ability to use the tools at your disposal to achieve your goals, without relying on those tools. Be those 'tools' parts of yourself or your body, such as your limbs, be they actual tools, or be they your allies or friends, or even your enemies, if you can manage to use them to further your goals.
I think she would say that there are none who are infinitely strong, who can rely on nothing at all besides themselves, and indeed, if you attempt this to its fullest, you'll end up following the path of the sith, attempting to accrue power to control all there is, but in truth be controlled by your own desire to control. Yet that, none the less, you should strive to be more independent rather than reliant.
@@nivircescrittore8304 I love your thoughts and I agree. Very well spoken. Hell, you've got me wanting to do a millionth playthrough. Thought provoking!
Revan wasn’t brainwashed in Swtor. He was held in prison for 300 years where the emperor probed his mind and used the darkside with the help of the dread masters to keep Revan alive. He was freed and then was killed and his light side half passed on. Due to the emperor probing Revans mind and keeping him alive for 300 years Revan split up into two halves and his dark side half took up a physical form after he was killed at the foundery and went a little nuts because that half still had the goal of killing the emperor like he did 300 years ago.
After darkseid Revan was beaten he returned to the real revan who was a force ghost and Revan finally became whole again
I understand and you are correct, “brainwashed” probably wasn’t the correct term but i was just oversimplifying it. The point of what i was saying though was that the removal of Revan’s kotor 2 story greatly diminishes the character and the overall themes present in the old republic setting, as explained in the video.
Please continue to make more star wars content
I am working on a kotor 1 vid right now :D
The Sith Triumvirate just seem way more dark and threatening than any other group of Sith i think
They were a bunch of uncoordinated buffoons. Kreia and Nihlus weren't true sith and Sion was easy to talk down. The Original Sith and Reconstituted Sith were best.
@@matro2 Yet they did what no other Sith before them could do, although the Jedi/Republic were super weak after several wars, they did the first Jedi Purge.
@@S1mply6 Pretty sure Malak set that up.
Lore of Kreia - The Futility of Ideology - A Brief Character Study momentum 100
I'm a simple man. I see JFJ video, I watch it, I smile.
it's always funny to me when people can't help but take a swipe at the sequels.. they just can't resist :)
Algorithm also support the rest of his channel
hopefully the spell works
18:28 ahh, the deserving poor. kreia thatcher
So then if we r going to dismiss SWTOR by BioWare… then where was Reven at the end of these events in Kotor 2 there still a big plot whole there… unless I haven’t found the book or game that fills that in, which I am willing to accept. Just wondering. Loved ur video by the way
Hey thanks for the comment! If dismissing SWTOR, as far as I know the KOTOR timeline ends at KOTOR 2 in which it is hinted that the exile goes to find Revan on his quest somewhere in the unknown regions. What this quest was likely would've been featured in the since cancelled KOTOR 3. While I admit a somewhat unsatisfying conclusion to the timeline, I would still rather have an ambiguous ending than deal with all of the strange plot choices found in SWTOR. Of course, not all of them are awful, I just particularly dislike how most KOTOR characters were treated.
Hey. Liking the content though I do think the music is a bit too empowering and drowning out your voice volume 😅 Also i think the mic quality sounds different compared to your KOTOR 2 review video. That one sounded a bit more crisp and clear.
Hey Sam, thanks very much I’m glad you liked the video! I will admit I tend to get a bit carried away with the music but in my defense the volume is always a bit different in the actual editing software before I render it, I will take greater caution in the future to make it right however. As for the mic quality you are absolutely right, I have moved since the kotor 2 video and my room has far more echo lmao. Either way I appreciate the feedback greatly!
@@probablyswifty209 What editing software do you use? Adobe Premiere i think has some pretty good tools to auto-adjust volumes and even have the music DUCK when you're talking. Not sure about Da Vinci tho...
@@probablyswifty209 What mic are you using by the way? I think most issues with microphones can be managed by good mic technique. Of course, not every mic is the same so I'd need to know what it is first :p
SamBlips I am currently using the free version of Da Vinci Resolve and a MAONO brand USB 192KHZ/24Bit microphone. I would provide more details but I’m in class right now lmao. The mic was around 50 bucks all things included but I purchased it on sale so it was normally more expensive. I am sure I could equalize my audio within the editing software itself but I’m just not very good at it as I’m sure you could tell.
Revans story in swotor is not bad 😅
KOTOR II was based. Kreia more so.
Not Revanchists
never was able to listen to her at the time of playing the game myself
like in retrospect I understand the value of her teachings and efforts but at the time I had too strong of a "fuck you then I got better shit to do than listen to you piss and moan and second-guess me no matter what I do" syndrome
had no patience to be constantly negged and picked at
still dont tbh
I felt that way the first time around but I grew to love her lmao
lol everyone and their mother has a kreia video now wtf
While I understand that the Exile is intended to be canonically female, i think the romance option between the male exile and Breana is way more interesting
Revanites
Orgawiudie?????? Yes!
6 and a half minute amv just to wind up with some shit-ass mic quality.
your dad drowned
Would Jolee and Kreia get along?
It’s hard to say. I’d think that Kreia would respect Jolee to an extent considering he refused to follow the dogma of the Jedi order. However, I think that they would have very different outlooks on how to deal with situations. Particularly, I think Jolee would find Kreia to be a miserable old woman and Kreia would see Jolee as somewhat of a weak-willed fool. Thing is, Kreia sees basically everyone as an idiot so comparatively speaking they would get along better than most.
@@probablyswifty209
Thank’s for the answer, I was thinking about how Jolee wouldn’t agree with Kreia like on Nar Shaddaa with the Exile helping someone with credit’s.
@@probablyswifty209
Sorry for asking more question’s, but I feel like your answer’s are staisfying (misspelling) due to how knowledgable you are of Kreia and seem’s like for the other cast of both K.O.T.O.R game’s.
Idk if you’d answer some here, short and sweet to the point (if that’s possible).
1. What would Kreia think of Anakin / Darth Vader as a character / person and his life?
2. What would Kreia think of the K.O.T.O.R.1 cast?
3. What would Kreia think of Yoda & Palpatine?
4. What does Kreia think of Player / Prodgial Knight Revan?
5. Would Kreia respect Jolee the most but under Darth Revan & Meetra Surik / Jedi Exile?
@@75JUNAKI Very true. I’d say the biggest disagreement between Kreia and Jolee would be on love, romantic or otherwise (love for thy neighbor). Jolee, much like Visas in Kotor 2, would advise you to take great care of your relationships with others, since they would see that interconnection as a strength. Kreia, on the other hand, would think that no matter how apparently immediate and beneficial, relying on others is a weakness. Whichever is correct is left purposefully vague and one of the many reasons I love these games.
@@75JUNAKI For your second comment, give me one moment and I will do my best to respond lol
I was a foolish teenager when I first started to try and analyse Kreia, so I couldn't even start to grasp the correct meaning behind her philosophy.
But I've learned since then. I'm finally starting to understand what she wanted to teach. How can I be so sure about that ?
-"Serial Experiments Lain" taught me how there are actually many "us", we can choose which ones we want to give meaning to, and how we can't base our identities solely on someone else's idea on us;
"Youjo Senki" taught me the importance of freedom from the metaphysical in favor of our own evolution;
-Spartan history taught me the importance of strenght in brain, brawn and spirit;
-In "Mass Effect", I tried to put these lessons into practice, refining their meaning and application;
-And throught "Shin Megami Tensei", I learned a perfect status quo is completely and utterly unachievable, even if you are a transhumanist.
All I have left to know, is if I would be the apprentice she wanted me to be.
channel sorba! 🤗
I unironically hate that it is impossible for so many content creators to talk about KOTOR2 and Kreia now just entirely on its own merits with out having to make asides attacking TLJ. Literally its a baseline assumption anyone who likes SW enough to make content about it probably didnt like that movie, we know. You dont like TLJ. This was assumed before I got here. And don't get me wrong, I don't mean this to read as an attack, Just a poorly communicated attempt at saying: I at least, Come for the love and the hate detracts.
but also, I only bothered to comment *for* engagement because Video WAS good, Did Like and Comment~
if i recall correctly i only mentioned tlj as a point of contrast rather than just throwing it in there but yea i do get that tlj hate is pretty stale at this point lmao
@@probablyswifty209 yeah and I happened to have just watched another video on it right before hand that also brought it up and I'm in the minority camp of liked the sequels for what they were, sure it's no KOTOR, or Deceived but I had fun. And I think tlj has the best cinematography in the films so it hits me weird y'know
@@katmannsson that’s totally cool i mean i happen to really dislike the sequels but who am i to stop someone from enjoying something meant to be fun. for instance as much as i think rise of skywalker is an awful movie it was a super fun watch with me and my buddy when we saw it in theaters. i just wanted to point out tlj as a poor example of subverting expectations and the idea of “deconstructing” star wars whereas kotor 2 did it much better in my opinion.
Dude maybe if you tried to think about the criticism of that film and acknowledged them you couldn’t be mad when somebody compares a vastly better executed story with the same purpose to rian johnsons fat homeless fanfic
It was Vitiate. Revan was broken by Vitiate. Everyone else in Kotor only knows Revan from their warped persepctives.
Great video.
However, both qui-gon and bindo are lightside jedi who rebelled against the jedi. There is no such thing as a grey jedi.
Intro was way too long. Not interested in inspiring music set to quotes. Wanna hear your dissertation lol
without listening to know what this means, I say right off the bat everything is ideology, thus it's futile to not adopt one given you'll be given one by existence itself regarless therefore be manipulated
it more so has to do with the idea that following an arbitrary set of ideals rather than doing what is right in any given situation weakens people. obviously, what is “right” depend on the individual but the rejection of imprisoning oneself to a single set of beliefs is a core teaching of kreia.
@@probablyswifty209 the core idea of Kreia is betrayal, meaning ironically the idea that one cannot trust any idea less one be betrayed eventually just as Kreia was betrayed, and that is supposedly the ultimate secret of power.
I deny that, the idea of truth is absolute. As any teaching itself is the truth also, so the idea that ideology is futile is saying any teaching is futile, a self contradiction. Truth is inexorably God, forever. Embrace it or dispair. The truth is that the infinite truth is difficult to impossible to hold by finite beings, therefore there is always a higher degree of truth to be had, and holding to any half truth is of course betrayal to the idea of truth which is an endless journey. As Jesus Christ said, be a passerby
Very interesting video! Wonder if you’ve also watched .’s video essays on Kreia’s philosophy and Star Wars
I’ve watched them a bit I feel but I don’t remember all too well