a polling update re: the statistics i mentioned at the top of the episode about men swinging red this election -- the tufts university CIRCLE analysis of the AP votecast survey shows that trump received 56% of the young male vote to harris's 42%. in 2020, the reverse was true: young men voted for biden at 56% and trump at 41%. for more analysis on how young people voted: www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/11/08/2024-election-young-voters-data/76115224007/
This video convinced me to vote Republican, and I'm a liberal. Your guest showed 0 empathy. I'm pro-LGBT pro-feminism but I see zero respect coming the other way. If my personhood doesn't matter to the left, then so be it. I'll vote right-wing.
@@Eskers32 No joke, I think that that was a bot comment. The election is already over. It would be weird for this video to suddenly convince them to vote Republican 12 days after the fact.
Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that the male loneliness epidemic discourse seems to focus entirely around romantic relationships? I can’t help but think this is a big part of why single men report being lonelier than single women. Single men seem to put all of their hopes and dreams into romantic relationships while women seem to build support networks much more broadly.
Because women are communal by nature, and men only want to have control and the power to change their immediate situations and worlds, it’s very simple, a man who can be left alone to build his cabin, make his own food, and be busy, be productive is the most happy and content. For the ones who claim to be so “educated” you have 0 understanding of human nature
Why is it even considered in the first place? Minorities are treated 10x worse and they have to work extremely hard to be accepted in society. Men just need to be nice to others and drop their ego. Minorities get insulted and called all types of names by men in addition to having laws enforced against them, but these men feel degraded from hearing "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity"? Give me a break.
I can think of one very practical reason why people who aren’t straight white men should care about the well-being of straight white men. Ask yourself this, would you rather share an elevator with someone who has been vaccinated against Covid or someone who hasn’t? The answer should be obvious. You would pick the vaccinated one because you don’t want to be trapped with a sick and possibly contagious person. Loneliness and alienation are very much like debilitating diseases. Healthy, well adjusted people of all demographics are going to make for better people to share the world with. They are going to be less violent, less hateful and less vulnerable to radicalization. In other words healthier men make for a safer world for everyone.
@@evanallison3235 There's also a big difference between people that are alienated due to their bigoted, close-minded views and people that are lonely due to things like social anxiety. Keep that in mind.
@evanallison3235 I agree, we can't just treat these people as lost causes, they're still around and a big part of society I don't quite know how, but they need healthy communities to be part of
I think the thought that "I deserve a woman" really is the most important part of the incel community. It's so important to emphasize that that's not how we should think about other humans. It's really dehumanising and as we see dehumanising fosters all kinds of violence.
The sodomy, the genital mutilation… that freak show Richard Levine (fat Jewish guy playing as a woman…made an ADMIRAL by Joe Biden and HEALTH SECRETARY…literally a mentally ill, demon possessed man) The “fire all cops stuff”. People are SICK of the demonic agenda. Demonic
How do we explain this to less educated people? I feel like "dehumanized" is too big a word for them. I'm trying to think of how to teach young children empathy because that's the level that some people are at.
@@sleepyspacegremlinI wonder the same. It's blasphemous for them to hear "You're not entitled to people's time/body/etc" aswell. I feel like it takes conscious effort to deprogram this type of worldview
@@sleepyspacegremlin Idk I think less educated people in general understand the concept of dehumanization but just don't care. Children on the other hand just need it broken down to them in a way they understand (I know, easier said than done) but I think (thinking back to me being a kid) often this is done through actual lessons from school counselors but also notably stories. Stories in books, in games, in tv shows and in movies since its an easier way to conceptualize and idea and how it might help/hurt someone as you literally see it described and play out on screen. I'm no expert with kids but maybe people can start there.
Being condescending and empathyless(is that a word?) by assuming what's most important to them is not the way to go about things. Respecting their intelligence by telling people that the problem is capitalism is what should be done.
@oF-KoRn "as a this" "as a that" still drowning in identity politics i see. Thank you. You make it so easy to win now 😀. My side is growing with everyone so please continue 🙏
As a gay man who is almost 50 just remember this, we have experienced this before and we are strong…we will thrive again once these Trump supporters will turn on one another….it won’t be easy but we have this as long as we keep uplifting each other and keep our eye on the real enemies…the best we can do is support our community and rebuild it in real life and take care of each other….much love to everyone who feels a bit defeated right now…remember we are strong….keep your head up and stay proud
Keep uplifting each other implies the queer community is a monolith when you had members of them voting for trump as well. In my experience that community didn’t exist, if you don’t fit their mold of what queer is they couldn’t care less about you. I know because that happened to me.
I'm a youngish straight white cis man from Tennessee....who used to never miss a Joe Rogan episode. I'm basically the target demographic for this manosphere MAGA movement. And yet, there's literally nothing about it that appeals to me. Nothing. This isn't me virtue signalling. I'm genuinely baffled by my fellow demographic. What is _happening??_ Not to sound like a luddite, but I'm more convinced than ever that our phones and social media are literally *_destroying_* our psychology. I've absolutely had periods of my life where my romantic life was in the gutter. Or moments when my self esteem was shattered. But....I didn't get my first smartphone until 2022. I didn't get on Instagram and TikTok till early 2023. I simply held out until then....for no particular reason. I just never felt compelled by peer pressure to embrace all that. As a result, I think that afforded me SO much space and clarity to develop as a human being. It immunized me to a lot of the terrible arguments so many young men are now falling for. I feel profoundly lucky in that regard. And now that I'm older and DO have a smartphone and AM on social media....I use all that for purely positive affirming connection to people and ideas that speak to my curiosity and creativity. I got lucky. But it's scary how most young men are being lead down such a supremely dark road.
it's the algorithms. There was a test where they created 2 accounts, one male, one female: I don't remember what happened to the female account but the male account was immediately flooded with right wing content. Why does the algorithms work this way: Who funds the right wing politician -> billionaire. Who runs social media -> billionaire. Who benefit the most on right wing policies -> billionaire.
thanks for your comment and perspective. it's great to hear that you escaped being inundated by this stuff, good on you bro. i've had a smartphone since i was 12. i've only recently started to untangle some of the knots that social media and 24/7 unfettered internet access have tied up in my brain. i have a tendency to avoid unpleasant emotions, so for about 10 years near nonstop i used music, youtube videos, podcasts, etc to listen to ALL the time. things i had already seen 20x over, just anything to block out my thoughts + feelings. not very good for the mind i must say - it stunted my ability to identify and manage my emotions, on top of existing mental health issues. i shudder to imagine that experience combined with manosphere content + the right wing pipeline. from my experience, i would never take time for myself if the option of instant stimulation was right there in my pocket, which it always was. i often worry about the younger generation growing up like this, never knowing a day without an ipad or phone, especially in today's social media landscape which intends to get you addicted. what disconnect from the self and the world, it makes me sad to think.
I think staying away from social media and as u said, having had the time to develop outside of it, is part of the key. Dont get me wrong, on the one side, social media (specially insta and youtube) have allowed me to learn so much by listening to other people. On the other hand though... there are precisely so many ppl preaching so much BS that I guess all roads are possible. And dont even get me started on the fake news... its become hard even for me ( a polysci/cultural studies graduate with media training and 8+ years of high ed) to untangle the amount of garbage I hear everyday. Its scary man.
@@chudpunter Who was in charge of the de part ment of ed uca tion 12 of the last 16 years again? Why do half of US adults read at a sixth grade level or less?
It explains so much. It explains some of the things that my middle school age boys tell me about school, things that I didn't believe. It is so heartbreaking.
The thing that gets me is when it's over and he does a stupid Dreamworks "welp isn't this wacky?" face to the camera. Any normal human being should have been haunted by the experience of seeing literal children espousing virulent hatred apropos of nothing, but he's such a soulless husk it's all just content to him.
@@zahraaa.khaliq8985 I thought he actually believed all the hateful things that he says. Was completely surprised that he said, "No! We love everybody!" He seems like an entirely different person.
This is so incredibly sad and worrying to see as someone who has actually been through that same right wing pipeline when I was in my teens to early 20s (I made it out & I’m 24). Those years in that pipeline were miserable and filled with so much insecurity & hatred towards myself and others. I’m a gay man, and it also disgusts me how bigoted I was towards myself and others. I literally used to think being gay was a punishment and an obstacle I had to “overcome” in my life. Going through college, becoming more educated, and opening myself up to other people’s perspectives, ideologies, and cultures was the arm that pulled me out of it. I’m now a much better, happier, more confident, more mature, and more welcoming person because of it. And don’t worry, I love myself for who I am now & am in the process of coming out. We need to work harder towards providing these exit doors to other young men who are in the pipeline, and we need to work on preventing them from entering it in the first place. Young men should be comfortable in being themselves and embracing what makes them unique.. not being the same aggressive, machismo robot they’re “programmed” to be by these right wing/manosphere creators.
I would love for you to elaborate on what the "exit doors" could be. I've been thinking about how to help with this in my own life and it's hard, especially because it can take longer and because many men don't want to listen to me as a woman. Props to you for making it out, I know that even I fell for it for a short while and I've always been a rather progressive woman.
It’s really hard to say because those doors could look differently to everyone based on their surrounding environment. I was privileged to physically be in an environment (college) that challenged my views and was conductive to critical thinking, nuance, and reaching across the aisle to see different perspectives. Those circumstances made me curious to then go do my own research. I started reading more left wing articles online instead of my typical go-to right wing sites, listening to more left wing podcasts, watching left wing creators & hearing what they were saying. I slowly began to realize the flaws and ignorance within the views I previously held. What I think would be good to have, like Matt and Taylor mentioned in this video, is more investment into populist creators and personalities in alternative media that young people can relate to and identify with without being pumped with toxic sentiments, rhetoric, and means of living. Something different than the Neo-liberal legacy media and Hollywood personalities that have constantly failed to resonate with the average youth. It’s super complicated & I wish I could give a more clear-cut answer, but it’s going to take some exploring and trial/error to find the exit doors that work specifically for you
@@meeomelovescookiesandhisto459 From my personal experience losing a close friend to these sorts of pipelines, there is no social progressive exit door outside of actually improving the quality of life for middle/working class people(in general, individuals will have their own exit doors through personal relationships like OP mentioned). No matter how right we are about the social ills of the world as long as young men(and men in general) don't see hope for a compelling future for themselves economically they will turn towards ideologies that offer them easy targets to blame. In my specific circumstance my former friend knows that capitalist influences have the largest role in the problems they have in their life, but the rightwing culture warriors have done such a good job tying corporate interest to things like DEI or "woke" ideologies that these men are pushed away from embracing any real progressive stance that doesn't cater specifically to their own personal interest. I've heard arguments that we have spent too much time on the left on social issues being too large a portion of our rhetorical strategy, and while i dont fully agree with that assessment, there is some truth to the fact that many young men don't feel like they have the resources available to care about anything other then "what is going to make my life better/worth living". To me standing up for and embracing progressive social values is something that makes my life better and more worth living even if I were to end up living on the streets, but for many men in order to feel any sense of security in themselves or value in their life they need to achieve certain economic goals just to have that sense of self worth. This is of course by design, it disempowers the working class and causes the fractures that manifest as young men turning away from positive social values. This is all much more cynical then I wanted to be but I suppose that is to be expected at a time like this lol I'm not sure how we are meant to engage with the people caught in these traps and I hope someone can share some better ideas than I've been able to implement myself. Until then I feel all we can do is support one another in whatever ways we can, disengage from arguing senselessly with men who choose not to listen and fight for better economic conditions for working class people. Doing so will hopefully open more of these exit doors for young men so that we can pull them through when their curiosity leads them to those doors.
Hey…. A popular UA-camr named FD Signifier, has a huge video essay on the Black Manoshpere… I believe it is four hours, in two parts… I wish you two would do a collab, talking about possible solutions to this problem…
Matt Bernstein is one of the only people who can talk about some of the most terrifying events in my life right now in a voice calming enough to make me feel better.
As a cis straight white dude, I can't understate how important shows like this are for countering a lot of things far-right media push on an everyday basis. I was lucky enough to avoid the red-pilled community because of the queer people in my life, but its sad to see how many guys I'm surrounded by that spew misogyny so easily and expect me to be onboard. I wish guys had the capacity to watch episodes like this without being threatened in their masculinity, because it lays out a lot of the fallacies that we are exposed to and deconstructs them so easily.
I unfortunately think so many of the people that have fallen into that trap wouldn’t even give this a chance bc it’s a fem-presenting gay man and a woman. We need more people like Hasan to model these ideas, otherwise I worry they won’t listen. Am I wrong? I’m a gay leftist so idk 😂
I don't know which country you're from but as a European I can surely say that it's spread to multiple European countries if not all. The communities differ in size but are more prominent than before.
This. There recently has a survey asking men: "do women deserve the violence they based on their looks, clothing, behaviour etc" and around 25% of men aged 35 or under answered Yes. The amount of misogonyst answers among men that age bracket was higher than other groups too. We also had the Blue and black party run last election. Luckily their registration as a party was revoked.
My partner lives in Australia right now, and it is affecting people there, too. They have less familiarity with their own politicians and are so easily propagandized by the U.S. politics. The tendrils of brainwashing are far and wide for people vulnerable by not having an identity of their own. People choosing to live in delusion instead of accepting the chaos of the universe and choosing love anyway are not limited by borders.
2 дні тому+22
Its not spreading because of th US. It's more because the situation is the same for young men in most western countries.
im a tgirl and honestly i roll my eyes everytime people tell me that “things are more accepted now” “we have to wait for all the old generations to die out all the kids love lgbt people” trust me i live in a city where everyone tells me their opinions to my face and i see no age range for the people who bully me. that clip of sneakos kid fans reminds me of that. the world doesn’t “always get more progressive over time”
I also get irritated when people talk about the “pendulum”. It’s not a pendulum it’s a god damned hammer that fascists keep trying to crush us with, and if we don’t ACTIVELY push back, they will succeed.
this, i remember being in high school (2017) and people saying stuff about a trans girl in my grade. but according to them, they never said shit to her face so it didn’t matter. she could feel the isolation, i know because i felt it too as the only black girl in my grade. on the surface sure we are more accepted but behind closed doors we know how they truly feel about us.
i'm commenting for the algorithm and will let this play, but I don't know how much I can watch it. The whole topic makes me feel broken, not to mention fearful for the future of my child who has to deal with this first-hand with everybody they meet.
I think the interview touched on this a little bit, but also spent a lot of time dancing around it. manosphere freaks are mostly a symptom of larger problems with our political landscape. the reason people are drawn to this fascist crap, and why everything keeps getting worse is because our "left" (no, not actually) political party is run by a bunch of conservatives who fundamentally think things are mostly pretty good as is, and who do not want to change anything. but for most people, things _are not_ good right now and haven't been for a while. the Dems have no answer to this dissatisfaction because any sort of genuinely left wing populism is anathema to their donors and the corporate ghouls running the party. so they mostly ignore or dismiss (not to mention condescend to) people's anger. that's certainly worked out well... the right also has no actual solutions or desire to improve anything, but they're perfectly willing to embrace their own brand of populism and channel that anger toward [insert minority group] by inventing narratives where "normal" people are being victimized by "wokeness" or whatever boogieman they make up next. liberalism has no answer to this, the last decade has been an unambiguous demonstration of its total impotence, with the recent election as one of its most utterly embarrassing examples.
You seem to of dropped this 👑 Chud, great comment. As a democrat who voted trump how you described the last 10-15 years is SOOOOO true. When someone like a Bernie sanders gets popular, they throw in hillary. Hillary wasn't going to change much, and that's why they wanted her to be the president, and not Bernie. Bernie would of actually done stuff.
I live in the town where the Elliot Rogers shooting happened and my heart sank when Matt said the Isla Vista Shootings. It’s such a beautiful place with so many amazing people, it just sucks that it’s now associated with this evil and hateful person.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Prepare for the worst. Get all your paperwork in order just in case. So you don't leave your loved ones with a mess to deal with, along with their grief. ❤
* hugs * Your life is still worth maintaining with dignity, in case you needed to hear that. I too have a chronic condition that will eventually lead to disability, so I'm a bit uncertain about the future myself. The only thing giving me hope right now (besides sheer denial) is the fact that good humans still exist and mutual aid is still possible. We just don't know how bad it's going to get yet.
Sheesh😣 I’m soo sorry. That’s what makes me mad about all this. People didn’t think that it would affect vulnerable people. Even VA benefits will be dismantled.
that's why i feel furious that young men voted for trump just to make a statement about "stop blaming cis white men for everything" like it's insane to me the complete lack of awareness/empathy for people who could be seriously harmed by their vote. im disabled as well, im very lucky that my disabilities are dynamic and treatable and im able to work as a special ed teacher, but im very worried about the students i work with. public schools are more than just a place to learn, for many kids it is the only safe place where their needs are met. it's insane that he wants to completely abolish the department of education and these chronically online men are choosing NOW of all times to "make a statement" about their issues when they are not the ones who's lives are at risk. not even gonna get into how women and lgbtq people are in danger now too because that's a whole other rant. it's so frustrating and im so sorry. i know what it's like to feel like people just don't care. i promise a lot of us do care and are fighting to protect you.
18:36 I think it's worth remembering that this 'more concrete idea of masculinity' -- that is, a monogamous man with a house and a wife and 2.5 kids that he fully financially supports on his one income -- was only ever available to a very small slice of even cishet men, even in the 50s. You had to be white and you had to be at least middle class and you had to live in the suburbs. This concept of historical masculinity is largely a construct built off of media and marketing (including wish fulfillment advertising at the time). Most families had both parents working in some form or another because they didn't have the means to survive off of one income. Most people didn't live in their own nuclear family unit in a house that they owned; many people lived with multiple generations because that's how you afforded a place to live and the hands to deal with the cooking and cleaning and mending and childcare. There's no way to 'return' because this was never a reality to begin with. The Behind the Bastards podcast has a couple of episodes on the history of masculinity grifters and part of what they talk about is that masculinity has kind of always been in crisis. We construct these idealized concepts of what masculinity 'is' which makes people who don't measure up to this fictional standard--which very few people actually meet--feel inadequate. (This is a general 'we'.) (Also they are far from the first people to point this out, it's just the most recent example I am personally aware of.)
THIS PARTTTTT. Thank you!!! And it’s so interesting (though depressing) to see how this idea of masculinity is used to shame THE most privileged demographic in this country, this is absolutely not me defending the straight white hateful incels AT ALL, but it’s ironic that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are absolutely doing it to themselves, at this point, & not realizing that they are being PLAYEDDD by a system that wants them angry, wants them doubtful, insecure, incompetent, unfulfilled, etc. to further divide & separate us so that none of us can coexist peacefully & focus on fighting towards change that would benefit EVERYONE. Instead they’re feeding on this tired idea of “masculinity” that, like you said, never REALLY existed in the first place.
And in many other cultures to this day, women work. In pretty much all indigenous cultures, women worked and continue to work. They have always been hard workers.
Absolutely. "Yes, and..." This reminds me of some of the Robert Bly-era Men't Movement rhetoric. You know about the crisis of masculinity? You know how sad it is that men no longer work with their hands or serve in the military, or fight in wars? (Which is basically Fight Club)...but the thing is...working class men still do all these things...and they always have. Whereas the men complaining about not working with their hands or being in the military are middle class white men who never did those those things in the first place.
Currently in a relationship (5years) with a man who’s fallen into this right wing media propaganda, incapable of seeing through the false rhetoric and having a logical conversation. It’s been difficult to decide if I should continue or end things, considering we were about to buy a house together and get engaged. It’s just so unfair that I have to advocate for myself to even my partner.
No amount of time spent together is worth continuing a relationship with someone who fundamentally doesn't respect you as a person. Thankfully, 5 years is not that long at all in the grand scheme of things (I've been with my partner for 8 years), and it'll be a lot easier to break things off now compared to going through a divorce later. If you have these types of concerns now, they'll only grow as you entangle yourself more with him.
This is so spot on. So many people I know who were previously not right leaning are now. My sister, who *used* to hate trump now supports him and that really hurt bc she was one of the first and only family member to support my gender identity.
So many ppl believe a trump presidency is going to fix everything. They think Republicans actually care about citizens. Seeing my sister turn to the right was really eye opening to me, but she said something about how it's the economy, it's the fact she'll "never go to college" (not true, she absolutely can and wont--shes dropped out twice) and bc of the way things have been going between 2020 to now, she thinks it's a Democrat issue. She thinks he'll end foreign wars as if he didn't say he's actually going to make things worse and "help finish Palestine off" It's really sad the right wing stuff. It's like we didn't learn anything from gamergate or anything.
@@phoenixritchie3670I appreciate you so much. She claims she still supports me but idk anymore :( she didn't vote and lives in Pennsylvania, a swing state. Her vote really mattered. She said if she would have voted she would have chosen trump
17:56 I have to agree! I think EVERYONE has experienced loneliness more after 2020 especially. But I think the big difference is women actually invest in relationships outside of their partner so even if we’re single, we have community. It’s not our fault that men don’t do that as much and not our job to fix but they want to blame it on women.
Women are more open and vulnerable, and toxic masculinity culture (redpill content) tells men to not be open, vulnerable, or in touch with their feelings, which causes them to be disconnected from themselves and, therefore, everyone else.
Even as a very lonely, autistic woman, it's never occurred to me to become an extremist. I don't understand this argument (not attacking you, just discussing) like how does loneliness lead to misogyny, racism, and anti-semitism? I understand most people are just people, no one has an agenda against me for not wanting to be around me or be by friend, the world isn't stacked against me. I'm just shy and awkward, I don't understand social interaction as much as other adults do and that's a turn off. It's unfortunate but it's the way things are. Even in all of my loneliness, it's never occurred to me to hate ANYONE.
Even women without community behave differently. I've lost some friends in the last years and I have trouble keeping up with friendships, so I have very little social interaction and am terribly lonely. I've been bullied growing up, so I've basically always felt this way. It's horrible, but I can still control how I act and if I felt myself not being able to do that anymore I'd try to access urgent mental health care. I can empathize with other lonely people to an extent, but yes there's no excuse for hatred! Plus, in my experience it's so hard to talk to lonely men because they will invalidate your suffering and punish you for theirs. I've been trying to help, but I'm just tired and want them to leave me alone.
@@alyssamendoza7708 I think it's important to understand that men are socialized to not be emotionally open and when they do they are ignored if not punished for it by misogynistic men and women. It is not in their nature to do those type of things.
(Disclaimer: just started the ep, so there’s a good chance you cover this!) But, can I just vent about how absolutely EXHAUSTED I am with trying to appeal to men by the way of relating women back to them? Like the whole, “think about your sister or mother or daughter while voting” reasoning. Like… no! You should care about women because they are human beings. It just furthers the idea that we are only important as to the extent we can relate back to men. Especially the kind of young, white, privileged men you cover in this video. It further supports the societal structure that things need to be made to work for them. I saw it time and time again during the election season and it drove me (a little) insane.
I mean.... one side said to men "you must vote me for the sake of women! Otherwise you are worthless", the other side said "you are not terrible." And now we live with the consequences. And people still wonder why young men voted the way they did.
@ulizez89 Trump said vote for me or you are the "enemy within". Or "poisoning the blood", or insert some other nasty nickname. And you wonder why we call him a fascist. Trump voters may not all be fascists, racists, ra pists, etc but they are all carrying water for fascists, racists, rap ists.
This Channel was not a pro Kamala Voting … I’m find odd some people are disappointed by the results of this election!?! How?!?! Did people really another candidate was going to win besides Donald Trump if they didn’t vote for Kamala ??? We got exactly what the majority wanted !!! Trump even won by the popular vote!!!
can't wait to watch the whole thing, just wanted to say thanks for making this video! a friend who works in Quebec schools just shared how boys here are obsessed with Tate and other misogynists and asked me for some content countering that. so worrisome.
I'd want to do more reading to really formalize this take, but I really suspect that it's not so much that the right is "winning" men, as much as... this is already the mindset they're socialized to have. Like, the freaking manosphere is really just the distillation and amplification of all the messaging towards mascs in the last century. The situation to me is much clearer when you think of it as patriarchal systems trying to repel change, rather than trying to grapple with individual reasons why someone might be drawn in. They were already in it, the system is just getting desperate EDIT: Lorenz's point about how much the right dominates online spaces where young men are actually interacting probably does a lot to explain this lol
Historically the internet was primarily left wing and male. It really changed and switched up around 2016ish. Why do you think that is if the current situation is a reflection of men's "true nature"
Leftists value accurate research and actually doing the work to get things right. When all you do is make up BS all day and lie lie lie, it is a lot easier to push out "content" with mass repetition.
I’m in Canada and things are getting bad here too. Our election is next year and I’m so scared. I hope things will get better somehow, but I’m so heartbroken.
I really hoped Canada would be spared but then i remembered how you had your conservative truckers block a city and thought, "welp, it's in canada, too". I hope Canadians learn from our experience, and Trudeau does something different and goes on your Canadian version of Joe Rogan.
@@s.a.w5493I’m also in Alberta, I’m non binary and have lots of binary trans people as friends. People have restarted hormones before they can afford them because they’re worried about access if they’re not grandfathered in
@@toddsutherland my best friend was trans, he passed away in 2020. Everyday I’m so scared of Canada becoming a country that wouldn’t be kind to him, Poilievre’s takes on trans rights are not it.
"Ironically first then not so" I see this pattern both in extreme right wing movements as well as closeted queer people and afaik it's unnamed and unstudied, I think people use irony to embody what they're both compelled to be and afraid to be seen as
with right wing politics, its called "schrodinger's douchebag". everything's a sincerely held belief until they get called out, then it's "just a joke".
After watching my little brother go right wing it’s been really sad. I think it’s partially a sense of frustration about economic opportunities and the way capitalism is squeezing us all. I think what really is the kicker is all the right wing people taking the worst fringe examples of people on the left saying “white men are all cancer you, get the bullet” and playing that on repeat until they are under the impression that the left thinks that as a whole. Now should young cis young guys look at that with a more critical eye and be like that’s clearly not representative of the left and I’m being played in order to market overpriced creatine supplements? Yes. Will that introspection happen organically? Probably not.
One thing you can say to him is that most progressives agree those people are annoying. It really is possible to ignore them, they are addicted to failure and incompetence and it’s a total waste of time to worry about them. They will never cause change because they’re deeply unlikable. I mean maybe show him someone like destiny who’s hated by the left but isn’t a right wing weirdo? That might get him out of it
Yeah that's the thing, trying to police speech is kinda useless when it comes to optics because there will always be some dickhead on the internet saying inflammatory shit, and the right can just easily blare it on repeat on all channels and it doesn't matter how everyone else behaves. Instead the trick is drowning out their propaganda with our own.. the issue is that they're well funded by shady billionaires and have platform owners supporting them and censoring us.
I mean, there are some young men who avoid that trap without outside help. My younger cousin was able to avoid falling for those snake oil salesmen. But its bitter sweet because he's just become completely disillusioned with politics. So he decided not to vote in this election at all. I think that for every young man whose gone right wing. There's another young who is so jaded that he doesn't want to touch politics at all.
I mean.... are they wrong though? I don't like Trump, or republicans or democrats (they are super right on my view). But I can't deny that the left and democrats have spent the past 2 decades demonizing men, and in particular young men, nothing but hate towards them. Hell, in this very podcast they started talking about how maybe male teenagers need a little empathy from them and not one second later they spent like a minute talking about how much they would hate doing that and how awful that sounds so.... yeah, no wonder young males voted for Trump, how could they not when the other side only hates them!
The introspection goes both ways. Why the F is a whole party demonizing men on such a regular basis? When was it ok to be misandrist? We took down Andrew Tate... PLEASE take down THE VIEW and the ppl that started the "choose the bear thing"... Also look at what happened to Bernie Sanders. He has black and white pictures of him marching for women's right... Yet he was branded a misandrist and misogynist... If the media that support a "progressive" party can do that... YEH it is BAD... Look at joe rogan supporting berine... He has not changed his political views btw... So ask yourself.What happened... WHO NEEDs to introspect...
I started at UCSB the year after the shooting, meaning all of my teachers and most of my classmates were present for it. I remember hanging out with friends one day and looking up our “name + the hedgehog” (part of a popular internet meme at the time) to see fanart that went with our names. One of the results we clicked on was fanart of a hedgehog with the first paragraph of the shooter’s manifesto pasted in, and not recognizing it at first, I started reading it off before my friend (whose had lost a friend in the shooting) stepped in and told me the source of the text. I know there’s a lot of writing about people accidentally encountering specific trauma or shooting jokes on the internet, but I hadn’t connected the memeification of incels with this experience. I don’t know if this will resonate, but I felt the need to share and to thank you.
I attended UCSB when that happened. It was the first time many of truly found out about incels and manosphere. Scary stuff and its disgusting to see how much worse this has gotten.
@@UniquelySustainable i am so sorry that you had to endure that! sending you the biggest virtual hugs!!! if you need an internet friend to talk to, i am here.
commenting for algorithm and to mention that Matt, I want you to know that on election night I cried in a bar with guys I had met that night and bonded with over your videos and tweets. Community is still here, and you're part of the glue. Thank you for all you do.
I've gotta say, as someone who is the direct result of two families where marriages WERE more egalitarian and equal than what I'm starting to gather was the norm of my grandparents' generation, my patience for raging misogyny is already at a damn minimum. Did my either of my grandfathers ever talk about their feelings? No. Did they do their own ironing and cook breakfast for the kids when both grandmas were too busy without bitching about feeling emasculated? yes according to my parents. My dad and brother are both (mostly) healthy male role models, an overwhelming majority of the men in my family are normal about women and other genders (even if in an awkward old person they got the spirit if not the vocab). The guys I grew up with had a very healthy respect for the farm girls who could kick their asses. Doing better is very accessible and easy as far as I'm concerned and I want some more consequences for con artists poisoning young guys' minds like Andrew Tate, AND the social media platforms who have enabled it.
Tate has been taken down most men and women and ANYBODY sees him as the demon he is... NOW THE VIEW... The people who started the "CHOOSE the bear" The ppl who somehow think it is OKAY to be racist and sexist toward white guys... The gender politics that went too far it became PC sexism and racism... YEH, please WE ALL NEED TO DEAL WITH THAT! Go watch Joe rogan... Just pick 3 random interviews... He has done. You will see what i mean... How can THAT GUY be seen as a right conservative? Makes no sense.
As someone who's not from the US the discussion about the relationship of the Democrat party and corporate media vs the internet was so interesting. You also confirmed my feelings that a large issue is that the Democrat party isn't even left wing to begin with.
Oh, thank god, you're here. Talk me down, Matt. Talk me DOWN. (P.S. New fan, but I have no idea how I'm only just now finding you. You're incredible. ❤️)
so, my perspective comes as a bi trans man whos been on T for ~4 years. while i'm aware that complaints about men within left or queer community spaces aren't directed towards me, i still get a little skeeved out at times. it feels like i have to out myself, but in doing so it can feel like they have to rationalize me as Not A Man. it makes me want to disengage from my communities. so i cant say i don't understand why the archetypical cishet white man could feel turned off. this doesn't mean they're right, though. i'll never be pushed towards the right because of this, and it is certainly not womens' (or other minotiries') faults in the slightest. but it leaves me feeling like i have minimal space within any community. i unfortunately feel it a LOT within trans spaces especially, as they seem to mostly be geared towards feminine leaning people. i'm a chubby, hairy, not particularly gnc man. if you saw me on the street id just be another white man. but i also don't feel fully welcome in cis male spaces, queer or otherwise. i am lonely, but so are many others. i just wish i had a community. it feels like my own treats me differently now that they can no longer pretend i'm not a man. i've rambled enough and this is probably only tangentially related, but i feel like people forget about trans men frequently. apologies for the word vomit in your comments
Thank you for saying this, def a perspective I haven’t seen before. I rarely see people discuss how masculinizing hormones by themselves are so effective for presenting as a man, but I’ve never considered how that might pressure people to out themselves to avoid getting grief in casual conversations. And yes, it’s aggravating to spend your energy researching your positions, educating yourself about social justice, voting blue your whole adult life, to be rewarded by being told you are the problem, you suck, and maybe you’re “one of the good ones”
Hey I don't forget about trans men :) but yeah I heard this from cis men too that "patriarchy" is an insult to them. The problem with this is, like, it's not true? Something being a problem on a societal level doesn't mean it's an insult. People being racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, whatever can be an insult towards people but it's not meant like this in general discussions if you say people have homophobic attitudes for example. Like a lot of people would be like "I'm not homophobic, excuse me?!?" but it's a societal problem. In building up societal structures, most fundamentally laws, certain groups of people get forgotten and it won't impact the lawmakers fault, but it will impact a lot of people. Sorry, it's kinda difficult to explain, and I'm a bit drunk and tired, so forgive me😅
Valid, and understandable. I'm transfemme, and while I really dislike the manosphere, I also find it troubling when our own community sometimes responds to misogyny by bashing masculinity in general, without even considering how disrespectful it is to our transmasc siblings, not to mention all the cis guys who aren't part of that obnoxious culture.
People shouldn’t essentialize you, identity isn’t a straightforward proxy for beliefs and experiences. There is a 2010s tumblery obsession with identity above all other forms of organizing that is now strongly associated with anything left of center. I still think the Democratic Party is largely responsible for this by moving focus away from alleviating material concerns to going all in on demographic destiny and empty social gestures. I will say, if some communities view men skeptically, it is at least partially from trauma. Male communities tend to demean outgroups much more brutally than the parallel examples we’re talking about. The unfortunate reality, however, is that the alienation of men results in reactionary politics and the increased dominance of an already powerful group at the expense of minority rights. This isn’t to say that men should just suck it up and behave, but it is politically expedient for minorities to figure out how we can get enthusiastic participation from people who can easily become our oppressors.
To me the male loneliness epidemic is moreso caused by a culture of people telling men that it’s gay to cry and love your friends, so they become increasingly isolated in the world and feeling like they can’t express themselves because they have to be strong and move through the world without showing pain. But then that same society turns around and tells them they’re monsters or weird for showing pain and wanting love. It’s more nuanced than that obviously, but that’s how it feels
Funny Tyler Durden in Fight Club was like " Let's blow up credit card companies to wipe debt off the face of the earth " but modern men are looking up to dudes who in there true form are just Jordan Belfort or other scammers. Hyper masculinity in fight club was bad but at least the dude wanted everyone to be debt free lol. Now these guys want to be the very rich dudes Tyler Durden would tell his male followers " Your not your fucking khakis " like lol how things have shifted not gonna lie.
For real. As a man, I thank my family every day for the fact that they raised me right. If it wasn’t for them and their advice, I would’ve fallen into the manosphere trap a long time ago.
My grandma and I both love your videos! As a trans person, I sometimes struggle to explain what's happening in the world and in our politics. I share your videos with my family, and they find them really informative. Thank you so much!
sneako is honestly even worse than that. I saw him arguing that the age of consent should be lowered to basically "whenever you reach s*xual maturity". Dude is not even gross, he's straight up dangerous.
If you're looking at the last four years, understand that stress makes you more conservative. I've seen in it in my brothers and sisters, who through the pandemic lost all romantic relationships, had several month-long sequences where no one amongst my siblings were working, and some of them were trying to look after their children. One went apocalyptic and has ended up currently homeless and on the streets of another city, one has turned to conspiracy theories because he has broken trust with any mainstream media, one who has moved on to a much more conservative church and went claustrophobic living in the city, and another who is ho-hum but that is because she is autistic like me. It's going to take a decade of work to get them more well adjusted. If we're talking about the last decade and some, then we have to factor in that a lot of men lost prospects because of unstable work and a loss of public spaces to practice sociability because of the recession and stalled recovery.
The problem is that, in general, we raise girls and boys differently. Girls are taught about emotions and relationships. Boys are taught that the only acceptable emotion is anger. Why are we still doing this?? I don't have kids, so I don't understand.
It’s getting better slowly but it takes a while to see the results. And social media can inhibit people’s ability to recognise and manage their emotions. But yeah, I wasn’t soothed as a boy, my dad said I was seeking attention whenever I was upset and treated me like my emotions were just annoying
I can't believe this talking point is still a thing. Even from youth I was taught about my emotions and handling whichever one came up. It was during all the online feminiwt rhetoric about toxic masculinity that made myself and other men feel awful and sometimes s**cidal.
Men being socialised into seeing anger as the only acceptable emotion is because people only take men seriously about their emotions when they show anger If you are sad? Disappointed? Frustrated? Upset insecure? Anxious? No one really cares unless you show that as anger and now people care. Overtime everything is expressed as anger or seen as anger by others People have to start letting men explore and express their feelings more profoundly and start taking them seriously
I’m also a gay, and I’ll just say that I do think shows like yours are actually extremely important, even to straight men. Once upon a time, I made videos and I was always shocked at how many straight guys tuned in? Tbh I never fully figured out why. Maybe they were bi curious and had a crush on me? Or maybe they got an ego boost when they compared themselves to me? I don’t really know, but Id like to think that part of the reason was that I illustrated that there are many ways to be a man beyond traditional gender roles. And I have to think the same is true for you. Like you can be a man who’s buff and logical and thoughtful while also having a lot of emotional intelligence and sickening nails. Like what’s NOT bad ass about that? So while I do agree with Taylor’s point that Hasan (and other stereotypical hetero men) may be more palatable to a broad audience at first glance, I also think men who break away from this mold serve a really important role too. It’s folks like us who show what alternative expressions of being a man can look like. And that becomes especially important when you’re trying to explain things like “toxic masculinity”. If men think there’s only one acceptable way to be a man, then “toxic masculinity” is a hard sell because it sounds like you’re saying all men are toxic. Anyway.. great podcast as always 😊 I always love hearing what you and Taylor have to say about these issues
As somewhat a transmasc I’m kinda obsessed with the idea of masculinity haha. The right grifter often asks what is woman, but it’s weird that they rarely look into what is a man in the same scrutiny they do to invalidate trans woman. Anyway I’m personally empathetic a little bit with ‘the male loneliness epidemic’ when the frame to show socialization in men is so oppressive. But also because they’re in a position that they can easily shy away from actual problems, it’s kinda fascinating. One of the things being a woman gave me was the intense hopelessness of my situation. Women are weaker and easily assaulted and oppressed as they say. However because of that it’s easier to see the flaw in our structure of patriarchy. Men though, they feel like shit for sure, but not in a way that the society groomed women to tolerate with. They’re taught to challenge frustrations through anger and oppression maybe? Because the frame of what it means to be a man is so small, young men probably are told that’s the only thing they have to be. However being a man is not constantly putting down like being a women, so idk it’s easier to deal with your own hopelessness, existential pain and lack of your own mission in this world through blaming the others: women, gays, trans, queers whatever, instead of facing the problem heads on which is largely our system. Not to mention the nature of storytelling as we humans telling ourselves often glorifies either the great man, or the under dogs right? For the marginalized and oppressed it’s easy to feel a strong mission to seek back power that’s been stolen. But most of these guys are somewhat privileged from the system, but not privileged enough to escape fundamental human grievances. They are not taught to be a victim, but they are not the chosen great men either. It’s easier to choose to deal with it by being this toxic radicalized male than seeking to understand what is actually wrong with our system. They also get a sense of community on top of that by being a vile misogynistic men. In the world that’s made for them, it’s more comforting to have the feeling like their problem is at most importance than turn around and just realize that we humans are fucked no matter what gender we are. At least that’s my take.
fellow trans guy here!! i will say, I think that the general attitude on the left has been dismissive of men, not maliciously but in a way that feels rather frivolous until you're seen in society as just another white dude? it's not oppressive by any means but there are moments where men's feelings are hurt and overlooked and I think that the left could be more tactful in their approach to men, particularly young white men. that being said, the ignorance is the bigger problem here; women have every reason to be angry with men, and men have basically nothing but this "aw man women are allowed to stand up to me now??" bitterness to stand on by contrast. the left lacks both the reach and also the appeal (the right tells men they deserve the world handed to them and are superior to the rest of society, and the left tells men they are the problem; I know which one is right, and I know which one probably sounds better to a teenage white boy) to have appealed to those young white men. I do my best to reach out to them as "just some white guy" it feels like being some kinda agent in disguise sometimes. to be empathetic to women is super easy if you've experienced it but a lot of guys don't know I have and are much more willing to hear out just some other white man
this was a really great episode about a topic a whole lot of people are weighing in on at the moment. taylor is absolutely spot on about the media landscape and how difficult it is for truly “left” voices to become influential. people who are genuinely critical of wealth and power are more often suppressed, not propped up.
I’ve been following stuff like this since about 2015/2016, and I will say I saw this coming after GamerGate and that’s why a lot of the people involved are gamers and twitch streamers. After GamerGate, there was an insurgence of “Anti-SJW” rhetoric on UA-cam with guys like Leafy.
Ok that influencer infographic is WILD. I consider myself very left politically/chronically online and I haven’t heard of a single one of the left influencers but I have heard of ALL of the right ones. 😳
I can’t believe V from Under The Desk news is on there - they are staunchly centrist! No wonder so many of those people have no pull, most of them are just pushing the same old Dem talking points
One of the best things that got me away from reactionary thinking when I was a younger guy was reading bell hooks. She really does a great job explaining how patriarchy hurts everyone.
based on the fact you literally only subscribe to conservative channels im pretty sure that was your plan already lol....just showing up loud and in bad faith
i audibly cheered "YES!" when you said taylor would be on this episode. i adore her work and you guys have such great chemistry and conversations on this show
They way they talk about this is part of the problem. Like I really don't think they understand the male loneliness epidemic. It's not that men weren't lonely then, it's that now the old ways are eroding and people don't know what to do. Add to that all the ways people are being isolated now and the messaging men deal with and it's no surprise they turn to the right. The Left, to be blunt, sucks at messaging. Using words like patriarchy and capitalism, while right, isn't how you're gonna move people. You have to talk to them like you're a human being. THat's something the Right is VERY good at.
Respectfully, the right don't talk to them like human beings, they coddle and comfort them like parents who tell their children they'll defeat the monsters in their closets. The point that the two hosts in the video make is that this is a lie; we are all lonely and alienated. And once these obscenely wealthy and powerful people see no more use for them, they will be discarded along with the rest of us.
@@nabilahalshari7880 They're wrong. Both of them, and this talk is an example is why the right is winning them over. They talk to them like people whether you accept it or not.
i agree, I think that conversations within this part of the internet community, and especially in smaller communities like queers, are secluded, so although we may understand what we mean by patriarchy and capitalism, for other people is just buzzwords. For example, I think a lot of people see us queers based on the corporate rainbow capitalism rather than our culture, thought, etc, because it is what is right in front of them, they don't know the full extent of the nuance these conversations have in the actual community, that we denounce rainbow capitalism while also supporting things like greater representation and pride as its original form, as a form of protest, only what is right put in front of them, so ive seen a lot of people conflating that with the actual community.
@ I think you have to let go of the notion of queer culture and “our”. That only represents a small portion of that population, the culture always did. It didn’t welcome all queer people. There is also no “our” as evidenced by all the different stances and groups queer people have. People to have stop pretending there is some unifying thread queer people have when it never existed. There is no mutual support in that community, only for those who fit in .
Excellent video. As touched on by Taylor and Matt, recognising and understanding the atomising effects of capitalism and how it ties into sexism and homophobia can appear quite abstract, impersonal, and even disempowering; it forces you to go against the grain, as most media and popular ideas prop up or accept the status quo - Meanwhile, placing all the blame on those who seem to have "directly hurt you" can feel way more empowering and obvious. It gives you a clear target to direct your pain at.
I honestly think that on the left we have this problem of not really being open to men while also trying to be like "well misogamy and the patriarchy hurts men to" only to never actually bring up these problems outside of trying to get men on our side
as a neurodivergent woman seeing the "male loneliness epidemic", i can only think: im lonely too! i struggle to socialise with others because i feel so different to them! i feel like i cant connect with others because im so weird! ive heard this from others, but i also do think a lot of incel men are autistic and struggle to make interpersonal connections for the same reason - feeling fundamentally different to fellow humans. maybe thats why this movement appeals to younger men too, who are also struggling socially because theyre still developing and havent learned all the social rules yet surrounding dating and maintaining relationships. it gives them a quick, easy tip which is advertised as flawless
You can't actual see the problem. If your answer to "Why are men feeling lonely" and you response with a "well I'm lonely too" you're in a bobble and you need to break out
If you want to genuinely want to to understand why young men are shifting right, you need to actually talk to them. Why would you invite Taylor Lorenz, a person who is clearly bias against this topic, to discuss their issues? This is like inviting a white supremacist to talk about black issues. 🤦🏾♂️
This conversation about the political inclinations of men feels inherently unfair, because male communities demean outgroups much more brutally than any of their parallel experiences of marginalization on “the left”. Despite this, men uniquely leverage their feelings of exclusion into antisocial violence. But that can’t be where the analysis stops. It is politically expedient for minorities to figure out how we can get enthusiastic participation from people who can easily become our oppressors. The alienation of men results in reactionary politics and the increased dominance of an already powerful group at the expense of minority rights - it isn’t fair, but we have to learn to avoid it.
That is true, but it is also true that men in general are automatically the ingroup of such groups. Hence how easy it is to radicalize to a violently hateful ideology when you are behind the gun.
I am a millennial who lives under a rock. Every time you say, "I probably don't have to explain this, but there's one person who doesn't know..." Hi, it me. I'm that person
First of all, thanks for the video. It was a really cool and important conversation. Second, I'm realizing how impossible it is to build community in youtube. I was going to write something adressing some of the ideas in the video but then I thought "what for, I'm gonna get bombed with trolls and the video authors are not gonna engage anyway". I feel like it's impossible now to connect productively with people in the internet as an audience member, even with other people from the audience. Man I miss forums and blogs...
I feel you, the amount of times I spend 20 minutes writing something detailed and well thought out and then delete it because the thought that someone is going to either skip past everything but the first sentence or start a senseless argument is too emotionally draining for the kind of person I am lol UA-cam could do a lot more to foster a forum and blog style system within comment sections or channels, but thats less time people watch videos and ads so it'll never happen i guess :(
As a straight, cis, gen z man, you guys absolutely nailed the reasons for the “male loneliness epidemic” and articulated why a left Joe Rogan can’t work. Although something I will say is that even if they had a bench of talent and the infrastructure aping Joe Rogan just wouldn’t work. It has to be genuine, authentic and strongly based on the creators communications style and personality. Like Hasan and this platform as well. Trying to “mirror” the right will seem hollow, fake and obvious.
That’s the characterization of it, but the truth is that men and women alike enforce a paradigm in which male suffering is dismissed as weakness or defect. Women are not innocent in this.
This reminds me to a podcast i was listening the other day, and It was about this topic that said that if s3x w0rk was legalize there' would be no incels, and that he was saying that wouldn't ve the solution because that Will be a simple way of thinking but in reality that's not the solution necause that won't do anytying to stop them for being radicalize, in fact that would radicalize thek more because they would think that with the right amount of money they can treat women as slaves. I Hope you understand, english IS not my first language.😂😂😂
I’m just going to spit ball into the void I’m not really expecting much to come of this and that’s fine. It seems like a fine line, where the snake is eating itself. This is coming from a young man (18 going on 19 in January) myself who is lonely and by all technicality fit most of the description for boys vulnerable to the manosphere thinking especially after the pandemic, I don’t have friends irl, never dated, I’m an average joe in the looks department just a fat though, never had a girlfriend, and the only communities I’ve known like that were online spaces, especially after the pandemic, and etc. If we strip down the manosphere redpill space to the basic reasons of why it exist it’s a response to a loneliness crisis felt by everyone, combined with probably not the best childhood but that varies, sometimes boys don’t have either parent, maybe they have one but it’s not a functional one, and etc. Me personally I grew up without a biological father who’d go around sleeping with women so much he’d cross state lines to do so, changing his identity, lying, and having a new past that he’d tell everyone other woman he met. I have a stepfather but he not a good role model, in fact he shows me almost everyday since I was twelve in what not to do. Having anger spikes and constantly drinking, getting pissed at the smallest things. I’ve lived on the poverty line my entire life, I’ve lost whatever male and female friends I had to a combination of the pandemic and the manosphere thing. My ex best friend literally moved schools just because he couldn’t get a girlfriend in the 6th grade. The other friend crashed out and became “blackpilled” way before it was popular. I watched that way of thinking destroy their lives. But going back to why I said was a snake eating itself, a self inflicted prophecy is because it promises thing nine times out of ten it can’t offer young men. They say I can get you mad rich if you follow my step and unplug yourself from the matrix. Boys end trading a sad reality of how the world truly works for a pathetic lie that siphons even more of their time, energy, and even money away from them. They say I can make you drown in women, if you treat them like trash. These are thing I can’t understand even in my the position I’m in now, by all means I should be an incel but I’m not, I’m just not interested in that in all that stuff. The goal is lost on the community, is getting a girlfriend even the goal anymore? Idk I just don’t know about anything. I just know one thing, boys will continue to get exploited by these types and it ends up in a illusion of reality that also parallels it as well. More well to do men in some ivory high castle will exploit less stable men, men of earth to giving up everything, it’s no different to being drafted to war or expecting to live to work, a lot of those systems more often then not have men at the helm blinded in their own hubris to exploit others under them to make us do their bidding. Recent events especially with the Tates only confirmed my original thoughts when they started to explode on the scene. It’s sad because those men haven’t escaped the matrix… Id argue they’ve entrenched themselves deeper into it, deeper into being exploited by the already powerful, Tate can’t give you a girlfriend who will truly care for you as a person, those people like fresh and fit can never give money, they just take it away, the list can go on. I don’t know what it takes to get a girlfriend, I don’t known what takes to be respected, or anything really. What I do know is that whatever the manosphere has nine time out of ten is most likely counterproductive, I mean just think about it, if their ideals worked why do incels who listen to types like Tate not have girlfriends, respect, wealth, or anything he’s promised yet? If there is one lesson that’s I’ve kept for years is to treat people the way you want to be treated. Telling women “your body my choice” just tells me you want to be treated as property as well, that you enjoy being exploited by people more powerful then you. You haven’t woken up from any matrix, you doubled down on it. Women are just going to end up clamping down in return, why date anyone when they run the risk of running into someone like yourself? There’s a difference between being confident a man, and being a jackass, especially for the types who want a family if you were to have a daughter would you really send her out in a world with people like yourself now? I don’t have any answers I just had my own story to share, cause ultimately I just don’t know, I don’t understand either.
Matt, thank you for covering these topics the way that you do. I've had a hard life, and it's really emotionally difficult for me to engage with the dark realities of current events if it's not coming from a voice that I can feel, deep in my bones, is on my team. Thank you so much for the work you do and the way you do it. Also, my husband came in while I was listening and said, "Wow, that person looks just like Natalie Portman," and meant it as a real compliment.
Tate's ancestory may not be "the point all along" but his father and their relationship sure does explain a lot about how he became a colossal a-hole. His father sounded like a terrible human that treated his family horribly but was somewhat successful so his sons worshipped him and took him as a role model. Could have gone to therapy but they started Misogyny Inc instead
Men think that they are good at hiding their pain & brokenness. They are not, and most mature adult women can see right through it. I am sorry if you're a man and you're hurt and don't understand how to deal with your emotions (my parents didn't teach me that, either). But it's time to learn! Stop making dumb excuses and pretending to be tough! Read a book about dealing with your emotions! Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a good one to start with. Brene Brown writes really good books, too. Listen to women for once.
Modern Psychology has been proven to not work for men. Also, ignoring the fact that hormones have a higher influence in behavior then socialization is the main proof of my first argument.
It's a minor detail but 4chan was certainly not ever the front page of the internet (that is Reddit's slogan)-- by the time it hit the mainstream media, it was already far too consumed in its own identity as the gallows of the internet to be any kind of front page. This DID appeal massively to young men at the time though. It was inevitable you'd end up there if you were interested in games and/or anime or were invested in internet culture in general.
4chan was never the front page of the internet, but it used to be the first place where culture used to manifest and assume a form, and its derivatives got passed down to other sites, like reddit, tumblr etc. where they either got disseminated, or reformed, or pushed against. Now, X (twitter) performs the same function more effectively, and 4chan is almost defunct.
As a white straight cis guy myself here's my take on the male loneliness epidemic. As you guys said, it's really just a loneliness epidemic in general, what makes it harder for a lot of white men though, especially white men, is they don't have an identity it's okay to be proud of making even the online community harder for them. As I white straight cis man I don't have the right to be proud of any part of my born identity. Now as a well adjusted person with an understanding of the history of oppression I understand why that is the case and I can focus on the parts of my identity I choose myself (husband, father, runner, gamer, game developer, ally) and for a community from that. However that is work other groups don't have to put in and when I was younger and not comfortable in my own skin I was definitely a prime target for these grifters. In fact, and I'm a bit ashamed of this, but what got me out was not the open bigotry, but the time Petterson said he believes ancient civilizations had knowledge about DNA through hallucinogenic drugs and that is why a lot of cultures depict snakes wrapped around each other. That was so looney I started questioning everything he ever said and slowly I worked my way to full-blown leftist with friends and family from all colors, creeds and spectrum. I don't really buy into the "the left failed white men" narrative, but I do think this is something that needs to be communicated more clearly. When I believed men's rights were valid and necessary I was so much more miserable when I am now. Now I have friends who love who I am, I don't need to prove myself to them every single day. My closest friend is a gay dude that admitted he thought I was gay in the beginning and tried to hit on me, and still I regular gym with him and get naked in the changing room and it's just so nice not to care.
Feel like u redirected a lot of the anxieties and fears these right wing influencers prey on surrounding cis/white/male identity outwards and used that energy to invest back into ur community which made you a lot happier and less bothered about having an identity etched in things that become so arbitrary when u genuinely embed urself within diverse relationships and friendships. A lot of right wing rhetoric tries to convince white men that they’ve been erased from the public sphere just bc other identities r represented more when in reality there is space for everybody and more, &always has been. Happy for u!!!
As a cis gendered left leaning guy I’ve become more and more uncomfortable with a huge swath of my own gender. I suppose I’ve never fit in and in many ways never liked most other guys most of my life but the divide has grown so much and what I see being spewed by so many stereotypical fellow men out there feels so toxic and frankly threatening and scary and disconnected from any kind of world I want to live in.
If you’re a young man and feeling lost or struggling to make connections, look no further than the phone you’re probably watching this on. How do you stop feeling lonely when you’re too scared to put yourself out there and make friends and build relationships? I agree that the frustration is totally misplaced on women and marginalized communities, but they’ve basically been groomed for this shit since they were children. These boys don’t know how to behave in regular society and it’s really sad. The brainwashing by the manosphere is literally melting their little unformed brains.
I swear that I come in peace with this comment, but I want to add my 2 cents into this topic. I used to work as a social worker for 10 years up until last year. Worked primarily with younger men. In the last few years in particular, this subject has come up frequently with Younger Millennials and Gen Z. There is just a growing sense that they are being blamed for every conceivable wrong thing in society no matter what they say or act. I cannot count how many times young men have talked about this and have said something akin to: “I don’t even know what it is to BE a “man” today because we’re constantly told that we are the scum of the earth for just being here”. And unfortunately, there has been enough of this male hating/blaming sentiment in culture that has reinforced this that they genuinely start to believe it to their very soul and unfortunately, much of this finger pointing at them has come from the Left side of the political spectrum. So, when the Far Right Strong Man arrives and looks them dead in the eye and tells them: “You’re right. They hate you. And it does NOT need to be this way anymore if you put ME in power”, you should not be surprised that so many young men are taking a risk with that side. Is there misogyny that needs to be talked and discussed? Of course. But there has most certainly been a massive amount of unintended backlash to the way it’s been talked about where many younger men now feel like they are being told that their struggles and problems don’t matter because TOXIC MASCULINITY is the REAL problem: Translation: The problem always has been, is, and always will be YOU. Whether people on this channel want to admit this or not, you’re going to NEED young men and male support in general on your side and to aid in your cause by voting for or against things that put you in harms way and right now from what I have seen, they not only do NOT feel seen and heard by the Left, but the takeaway from most of them is that the left and all that push it’s agenda out right despise them. The vast majority of rationalization I’ve seen from this last election is misogyny and racism were the ONLY things that made Harris lose. Although there is an element of truth in this, I would ask all to exercise caution as casting that as the ONLY reason she lost because you are unintentionally again spitting in the face and talking down to the same group that you’re going to need in the future and the more you keep that up, the more younger men are just going to shrug their shoulders and continue to vote against you. I ran into a former client of mine a week before the election and asked him what he thought about it and his answer should give you insight into what is happening out here in the male community: “Well, our choices are Crazy vs Preacher. And I am going with Crazy. Because Crazy doesn’t look down on me….and the Preacher does”. Thank for the video, Matt.
I agree with your assessment around the 20 minute mark that the "source of men's loneliness is capitalism and patriarchy" but what I fear you might be missing is the fact that a man, or any person listening to that, is absolutely powerless to do anything about that by themselves. Any person would feel even more lonely when faced with that as their struggle. And that makes them an easier target for grifters selling them an easy solution like blaming women or queer people or immigrants. I would love to hear a conversation like this that includes a straight man in the discussion. Because, whether we like it or not, if we want to understand and address men's issues, or what led them to vote for Trump like they did, we have no choice but to center men's voices and perspectives. At least for a little while. And that's something I'm not really hearing in discussions like this one.
capitalism, patriarchy, and well, the innate biological drive to seek out a sexual partner, lol. i'm not sold on this utopian ideal that abolishing oppressive social structures will magically make men content with being celibate
Wooo Taylor! As a trans person I feel comforted knowing that people like you two are out there doing real work unpacking these things. I don't really feel very safe out there, but at least I don't feel alone.
Man i liked the last time this guest was on but tbh I felt a little disappointed this time. I felt like the solutions at the end were pretty funny in how vague they were, and tbh I felt like a lot of the analyzing of men's complaints got reframed as 'well everyone feels this way' as if we didn't just talk about how patriarchy works to keep men isolated and less socially connected than women. And I get it, most of us don't have the capacity for empathizing w people who so easily adopt hateful ideologies towards us and it's unreasonable to expect it generally. But she even identified that the right gives young men a path, a vision of manhood, and we on the left basically give nothing if they want to embrace that (unless teenage boys are suddenly into hours long video essays or all day leftist politicking to follow Hasan). And as a genderfluid/trans masc person myself, I've seen and experienced so much misandry type attitudes in leftist spaces just bc of my proximity to maleness that it's insane. And yeah misandry doesn't exist on a national systemic level, but we create our own walled gardens online where the only way to gain credibility is to reveal ur marginalized identities or trauma, otherwise u get blindly labeled as priveleged or whatever, ESPECIALLY if u have a dissenting opinion or question. And I tbh I felt gross when Taylor laughed away so many complaints that men seem to have, even when Matt try to sympathize w them. And I bring all this up bc I think, in general, we as the left don't really give a way into our politics unless you've got a lot of feminist theory already under ur belt (we are considered the party of out of touch elites). I feel like sometimes we're so concerned w being right that we don't think we need to sell our ideas the way the right does. Idk maybe it's not even possible, idk if what I'm saying is even a solution, but it is an issue I have that let's me sympathize w men. Also, i feel like some (white especially) women are getting away w murder as we, the left, analyze these results. Even when canvassing in Pennsylvania, women would proudly tell me that they don't believe women are stable enough to be leaders, at the same rate as their male counterparts. Which isn't a critique of this video per se, but is something I constantly see missing when we talk about patriarchy, often leading to this false binary of patriarchy as men, women a collective against it. I did really like how she pointed out that we need to stop being so purist/tipper gore in our approach to media (ppl yelling at Bernie for Rogan). Loved that
Young men are not babies and they know what they're doing perfectly well. Let's stop pretending that we need to walk them through the concept of basic respect for women like they're kindergarteners ffs this is ridiculous.
@@tinycatfromhell Basic respect for women? wth are you talking about? Imagine if you said this crap to a man and they just tell you "You need to learn the concept of basic respect for men." Respect has always been and will always be EARNED.
@@tinycatfromhell Young woman, however, apparently *are* babies because you clearly do need someone to to walk you through the concept of basic respect for men like you're kindergarteners. You are, indeed, ridiculous.
A lot more of this is about untreated male trauma than most people want to admit. Reducing it to male loneliness is missing the point of the depth of pain and disturbance at stake.
18:39 I think it’s definitely not that men of those times weren’t lonely. Traditional masculine values are individualistic and isolating. I think the difference is that today’s young men are lonely without a blueprint. Even if the original blueprint didn’t address loneliness
I also love your phrasing of “I want to encourage them to deal with it,” like yes! It is not this insurmountable problem, it’s something we are all working to deal with. Loneliness is a key struggle right now.
a polling update re: the statistics i mentioned at the top of the episode about men swinging red this election -- the tufts university CIRCLE analysis of the AP votecast survey shows that trump received 56% of the young male vote to harris's 42%. in 2020, the reverse was true: young men voted for biden at 56% and trump at 41%.
for more analysis on how young people voted: www.usatoday.com/story/graphics/2024/11/08/2024-election-young-voters-data/76115224007/
This video convinced me to vote Republican, and I'm a liberal. Your guest showed 0 empathy. I'm pro-LGBT pro-feminism but I see zero respect coming the other way. If my personhood doesn't matter to the left, then so be it. I'll vote right-wing.
Reminds me of this video, ua-cam.com/video/T3BTT_W0OPw/v-deo.html *
@@lisdolannetherlands sure, jan
@@lisdolannetherlands The election is over. With all due respect, is this a Russian bot comment?
@@Eskers32 No joke, I think that that was a bot comment. The election is already over. It would be weird for this video to suddenly convince them to vote Republican 12 days after the fact.
Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that the male loneliness epidemic discourse seems to focus entirely around romantic relationships? I can’t help but think this is a big part of why single men report being lonelier than single women. Single men seem to put all of their hopes and dreams into romantic relationships while women seem to build support networks much more broadly.
Because women are communal by nature, and men only want to have control and the power to change their immediate situations and worlds, it’s very simple, a man who can be left alone to build his cabin, make his own food, and be busy, be productive is the most happy and content. For the ones who claim to be so “educated” you have 0 understanding of human nature
Why is it even considered in the first place? Minorities are treated 10x worse and they have to work extremely hard to be accepted in society. Men just need to be nice to others and drop their ego.
Minorities get insulted and called all types of names by men in addition to having laws enforced against them, but these men feel degraded from hearing "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity"? Give me a break.
I can think of one very practical reason why people who aren’t straight white men should care about the well-being of straight white men. Ask yourself this, would you rather share an elevator with someone who has been vaccinated against Covid or someone who hasn’t? The answer should be obvious. You would pick the vaccinated one because you don’t want to be trapped with a sick and possibly contagious person. Loneliness and alienation are very much like debilitating diseases. Healthy, well adjusted people of all demographics are going to make for better people to share the world with. They are going to be less violent, less hateful and less vulnerable to radicalization. In other words healthier men make for a safer world for everyone.
@@evanallison3235 There's also a big difference between people that are alienated due to their bigoted, close-minded views and people that are lonely due to things like social anxiety. Keep that in mind.
@evanallison3235 I agree, we can't just treat these people as lost causes, they're still around and a big part of society
I don't quite know how, but they need healthy communities to be part of
I think the thought that "I deserve a woman" really is the most important part of the incel community. It's so important to emphasize that that's not how we should think about other humans. It's really dehumanising and as we see dehumanising fosters all kinds of violence.
The sodomy, the genital mutilation… that freak show Richard Levine (fat Jewish guy playing as a woman…made an ADMIRAL by Joe Biden and HEALTH SECRETARY…literally a mentally ill, demon possessed man)
The “fire all cops stuff”.
People are SICK of the demonic agenda. Demonic
How do we explain this to less educated people? I feel like "dehumanized" is too big a word for them. I'm trying to think of how to teach young children empathy because that's the level that some people are at.
@@sleepyspacegremlinI wonder the same. It's blasphemous for them to hear "You're not entitled to people's time/body/etc" aswell. I feel like it takes conscious effort to deprogram this type of worldview
@@sleepyspacegremlin Idk I think less educated people in general understand the concept of dehumanization but just don't care. Children on the other hand just need it broken down to them in a way they understand (I know, easier said than done) but I think (thinking back to me being a kid) often this is done through actual lessons from school counselors but also notably stories. Stories in books, in games, in tv shows and in movies since its an easier way to conceptualize and idea and how it might help/hurt someone as you literally see it described and play out on screen. I'm no expert with kids but maybe people can start there.
Being condescending and empathyless(is that a word?) by assuming what's most important to them is not the way to go about things. Respecting their intelligence by telling people that the problem is capitalism is what should be done.
That opening, the sound of exhaustion is i think how everyone feels right now.
I'm pretty damn ecstatic!!
Cry about it
As a straight white male i see this as an absolute win
@oF-KoRn "as a this" "as a that" still drowning in identity politics i see. Thank you. You make it so easy to win now 😀. My side is growing with everyone so please continue 🙏
@@Funfare454 your side is growing? Lmao the poles say otherwise queer, your time is ending, the white man is back
As a gay man who is almost 50 just remember this, we have experienced this before and we are strong…we will thrive again once these Trump supporters will turn on one another….it won’t be easy but we have this as long as we keep uplifting each other and keep our eye on the real enemies…the best we can do is support our community and rebuild it in real life and take care of each other….much love to everyone who feels a bit defeated right now…remember we are strong….keep your head up and stay proud
Except it's ALWAYS the left that turns on each other. The right is United it's why we won the election.
Thank you for this important reminder, much love 💛
Right - we have been here before, and we will overcome again
Thank you for your perspective. It feels hopeless but justice will prevail.
Keep uplifting each other implies the queer community is a monolith when you had members of them voting for trump as well.
In my experience that community didn’t exist, if you don’t fit their mold of what queer is they couldn’t care less about you. I know because that happened to me.
I'm a youngish straight white cis man from Tennessee....who used to never miss a Joe Rogan episode.
I'm basically the target demographic for this manosphere MAGA movement.
And yet, there's literally nothing about it that appeals to me. Nothing. This isn't me virtue signalling. I'm genuinely baffled by my fellow demographic. What is _happening??_ Not to sound like a luddite, but I'm more convinced than ever that our phones and social media are literally *_destroying_* our psychology.
I've absolutely had periods of my life where my romantic life was in the gutter. Or moments when my self esteem was shattered. But....I didn't get my first smartphone until 2022. I didn't get on Instagram and TikTok till early 2023. I simply held out until then....for no particular reason. I just never felt compelled by peer pressure to embrace all that. As a result, I think that afforded me SO much space and clarity to develop as a human being. It immunized me to a lot of the terrible arguments so many young men are now falling for. I feel profoundly lucky in that regard.
And now that I'm older and DO have a smartphone and AM on social media....I use all that for purely positive affirming connection to people and ideas that speak to my curiosity and creativity. I got lucky. But it's scary how most young men are being lead down such a supremely dark road.
it's the algorithms. There was a test where they created 2 accounts, one male, one female: I don't remember what happened to the female account but the male account was immediately flooded with right wing content. Why does the algorithms work this way:
Who funds the right wing politician -> billionaire.
Who runs social media -> billionaire.
Who benefit the most on right wing policies -> billionaire.
thanks for your comment and perspective. it's great to hear that you escaped being inundated by this stuff, good on you bro.
i've had a smartphone since i was 12. i've only recently started to untangle some of the knots that social media and 24/7 unfettered internet access have tied up in my brain. i have a tendency to avoid unpleasant emotions, so for about 10 years near nonstop i used music, youtube videos, podcasts, etc to listen to ALL the time. things i had already seen 20x over, just anything to block out my thoughts + feelings. not very good for the mind i must say - it stunted my ability to identify and manage my emotions, on top of existing mental health issues. i shudder to imagine that experience combined with manosphere content + the right wing pipeline.
from my experience, i would never take time for myself if the option of instant stimulation was right there in my pocket, which it always was. i often worry about the younger generation growing up like this, never knowing a day without an ipad or phone, especially in today's social media landscape which intends to get you addicted. what disconnect from the self and the world, it makes me sad to think.
44, from the UK, and same.
You have good parents maybe ??
I think staying away from social media and as u said, having had the time to develop outside of it, is part of the key. Dont get me wrong, on the one side, social media (specially insta and youtube) have allowed me to learn so much by listening to other people. On the other hand though... there are precisely so many ppl preaching so much BS that I guess all roads are possible. And dont even get me started on the fake news... its become hard even for me ( a polysci/cultural studies graduate with media training and 8+ years of high ed) to untangle the amount of garbage I hear everyday. Its scary man.
I wish we could stop conflating 'left' and 'liberal', the two are really not the same
It’s all garbage
It's all the same to conservatives
@@lawfulgoodnun1646 yeah, but maybe we should challenge that political illiteracy rather than reinforcing it though, don't you think?
@@chudpunter Who was in charge of the de part ment of ed uca tion 12 of the last 16 years again? Why do half of US adults read at a sixth grade level or less?
youll realize they are the same once you start trying to come up with effective solutions to these problems
I'm gonna be honest, I don't think I realized that Jake and Logan Paul were different people until this podcast
Bliss
Cant say I blame you lol
Obligatory "Everything I've learned about the Paul Brothers has been against my will"
What do you mean, one is his given name and the other his stage name. No?
Nope, they're brothers @@francookie9353
That clip of sneako interacting with his child audience is genuinely such a real and heartbreaking video holy shit
It explains so much. It explains some of the things that my middle school age boys tell me about school, things that I didn't believe. It is so heartbreaking.
The thing that gets me is when it's over and he does a stupid Dreamworks "welp isn't this wacky?" face to the camera. Any normal human being should have been haunted by the experience of seeing literal children espousing virulent hatred apropos of nothing, but he's such a soulless husk it's all just content to him.
At this point, I am for banning kids from social media until they are at least 18 years old. That video made me even more sure of that stance.
He is become Muslim I think 😂😂
@@zahraaa.khaliq8985 I thought he actually believed all the hateful things that he says. Was completely surprised that he said, "No! We love everybody!" He seems like an entirely different person.
This is so incredibly sad and worrying to see as someone who has actually been through that same right wing pipeline when I was in my teens to early 20s (I made it out & I’m 24).
Those years in that pipeline were miserable and filled with so much insecurity & hatred towards myself and others. I’m a gay man, and it also disgusts me how bigoted I was towards myself and others. I literally used to think being gay was a punishment and an obstacle I had to “overcome” in my life.
Going through college, becoming more educated, and opening myself up to other people’s perspectives, ideologies, and cultures was the arm that pulled me out of it. I’m now a much better, happier, more confident, more mature, and more welcoming person because of it. And don’t worry, I love myself for who I am now & am in the process of coming out.
We need to work harder towards providing these exit doors to other young men who are in the pipeline, and we need to work on preventing them from entering it in the first place. Young men should be comfortable in being themselves and embracing what makes them unique.. not being the same aggressive, machismo robot they’re “programmed” to be by these right wing/manosphere creators.
I would love for you to elaborate on what the "exit doors" could be. I've been thinking about how to help with this in my own life and it's hard, especially because it can take longer and because many men don't want to listen to me as a woman.
Props to you for making it out, I know that even I fell for it for a short while and I've always been a rather progressive woman.
@@meeomelovescookiesandhisto459same
Not reading allat cornball
It’s really hard to say because those doors could look differently to everyone based on their surrounding environment. I was privileged to physically be in an environment (college) that challenged my views and was conductive to critical thinking, nuance, and reaching across the aisle to see different perspectives.
Those circumstances made me curious to then go do my own research. I started reading more left wing articles online instead of my typical go-to right wing sites, listening to more left wing podcasts, watching left wing creators & hearing what they were saying.
I slowly began to realize the flaws and ignorance within the views I previously held.
What I think would be good to have, like Matt and Taylor mentioned in this video, is more investment into populist creators and personalities in alternative media that young people can relate to and identify with without being pumped with toxic sentiments, rhetoric, and means of living. Something different than the Neo-liberal legacy media and Hollywood personalities that have constantly failed to resonate with the average youth.
It’s super complicated & I wish I could give a more clear-cut answer, but it’s going to take some exploring and trial/error to find the exit doors that work specifically for you
@@meeomelovescookiesandhisto459 From my personal experience losing a close friend to these sorts of pipelines, there is no social progressive exit door outside of actually improving the quality of life for middle/working class people(in general, individuals will have their own exit doors through personal relationships like OP mentioned). No matter how right we are about the social ills of the world as long as young men(and men in general) don't see hope for a compelling future for themselves economically they will turn towards ideologies that offer them easy targets to blame. In my specific circumstance my former friend knows that capitalist influences have the largest role in the problems they have in their life, but the rightwing culture warriors have done such a good job tying corporate interest to things like DEI or "woke" ideologies that these men are pushed away from embracing any real progressive stance that doesn't cater specifically to their own personal interest.
I've heard arguments that we have spent too much time on the left on social issues being too large a portion of our rhetorical strategy, and while i dont fully agree with that assessment, there is some truth to the fact that many young men don't feel like they have the resources available to care about anything other then "what is going to make my life better/worth living". To me standing up for and embracing progressive social values is something that makes my life better and more worth living even if I were to end up living on the streets, but for many men in order to feel any sense of security in themselves or value in their life they need to achieve certain economic goals just to have that sense of self worth. This is of course by design, it disempowers the working class and causes the fractures that manifest as young men turning away from positive social values.
This is all much more cynical then I wanted to be but I suppose that is to be expected at a time like this lol I'm not sure how we are meant to engage with the people caught in these traps and I hope someone can share some better ideas than I've been able to implement myself. Until then I feel all we can do is support one another in whatever ways we can, disengage from arguing senselessly with men who choose not to listen and fight for better economic conditions for working class people. Doing so will hopefully open more of these exit doors for young men so that we can pull them through when their curiosity leads them to those doors.
Hey…. A popular UA-camr named FD Signifier, has a huge video essay on the Black Manoshpere…
I believe it is four hours, in two parts…
I wish you two would do a collab, talking about possible solutions to this problem…
I love FD Signifier! That was a great series he did.
Wow another fan on FD. Matt we need a Collab the people have spoken ❤❤❤
Just don't bother trying to get invited to the cookout. Pretty sure invitations to the cookout are on hold for the next four years.
Anything would be better than Taylor’s achingly stupid permateen attitude towards internet ephemera
@@matthewcaldwell8100 Are you okay, buddy? Everything cool in the Caldwell8100 household?
Matt Bernstein is one of the only people who can talk about some of the most terrifying events in my life right now in a voice calming enough to make me feel better.
Big agree
and fail so miserably
As a cis straight white dude, I can't understate how important shows like this are for countering a lot of things far-right media push on an everyday basis. I was lucky enough to avoid the red-pilled community because of the queer people in my life, but its sad to see how many guys I'm surrounded by that spew misogyny so easily and expect me to be onboard. I wish guys had the capacity to watch episodes like this without being threatened in their masculinity, because it lays out a lot of the fallacies that we are exposed to and deconstructs them so easily.
I unfortunately think so many of the people that have fallen into that trap wouldn’t even give this a chance bc it’s a fem-presenting gay man and a woman. We need more people like Hasan to model these ideas, otherwise I worry they won’t listen. Am I wrong? I’m a gay leftist so idk 😂
Hahaah you will never win young men again by using the word cis
They still don’t get why they lost
@@Funfare454 so manly to be threatened by a three letter word
Literally the girl in the video is body shaming a man, there is no need of far-right influencers with this kind of people around...
what i hate the most is the US young men garbage has spread everywhere and is forming the fascist base for many countries, including my own.
I don't know which country you're from but as a European I can surely say that it's spread to multiple European countries if not all. The communities differ in size but are more prominent than before.
This. There recently has a survey asking men: "do women deserve the violence they based on their looks, clothing, behaviour etc" and around 25% of men aged 35 or under answered Yes. The amount of misogonyst answers among men that age bracket was higher than other groups too.
We also had the Blue and black party run last election. Luckily their registration as a party was revoked.
My partner lives in Australia right now, and it is affecting people there, too. They have less familiarity with their own politicians and are so easily propagandized by the U.S. politics. The tendrils of brainwashing are far and wide for people vulnerable by not having an identity of their own. People choosing to live in delusion instead of accepting the chaos of the universe and choosing love anyway are not limited by borders.
Its not spreading because of th US. It's more because the situation is the same for young men in most western countries.
What’s the same?
im a tgirl and honestly i roll my eyes everytime people tell me that “things are more accepted now” “we have to wait for all the old generations to die out all the kids love lgbt people” trust me i live in a city where everyone tells me their opinions to my face and i see no age range for the people who bully me. that clip of sneakos kid fans reminds me of that. the world doesn’t “always get more progressive over time”
I also get irritated when people talk about the “pendulum”. It’s not a pendulum it’s a god damned hammer that fascists keep trying to crush us with, and if we don’t ACTIVELY push back, they will succeed.
What's a tgirl?
World is like cycle,,...
this, i remember being in high school (2017) and people saying stuff about a trans girl in my grade. but according to them, they never said shit to her face so it didn’t matter. she could feel the isolation, i know because i felt it too as the only black girl in my grade. on the surface sure we are more accepted but behind closed doors we know how they truly feel about us.
This right here, I never believed Gen Z was going to be progressive.
i'm commenting for the algorithm and will let this play, but I don't know how much I can watch it. The whole topic makes me feel broken, not to mention fearful for the future of my child who has to deal with this first-hand with everybody they meet.
same
yeah...
Literally same, this is depressing. Ignorance is bliss, but ignorance also got us in this situation...
I think the interview touched on this a little bit, but also spent a lot of time dancing around it. manosphere freaks are mostly a symptom of larger problems with our political landscape. the reason people are drawn to this fascist crap, and why everything keeps getting worse is because our "left" (no, not actually) political party is run by a bunch of conservatives who fundamentally think things are mostly pretty good as is, and who do not want to change anything. but for most people, things _are not_ good right now and haven't been for a while.
the Dems have no answer to this dissatisfaction because any sort of genuinely left wing populism is anathema to their donors and the corporate ghouls running the party. so they mostly ignore or dismiss (not to mention condescend to) people's anger. that's certainly worked out well...
the right also has no actual solutions or desire to improve anything, but they're perfectly willing to embrace their own brand of populism and channel that anger toward [insert minority group] by inventing narratives where "normal" people are being victimized by "wokeness" or whatever boogieman they make up next. liberalism has no answer to this, the last decade has been an unambiguous demonstration of its total impotence, with the recent election as one of its most utterly embarrassing examples.
YES. I'm so fucking sick of it.
Thank you for saying, i was tired of reading the comments and seeing people using this bs conservative rethoric.
You seem to of dropped this 👑 Chud, great comment. As a democrat who voted trump how you described the last 10-15 years is SOOOOO true. When someone like a Bernie sanders gets popular, they throw in hillary. Hillary wasn't going to change much, and that's why they wanted her to be the president, and not Bernie. Bernie would of actually done stuff.
As a Marxist, all I can say is:
FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!
Thank you for your service Chud Punter
I live in the town where the Elliot Rogers shooting happened and my heart sank when Matt said the Isla Vista Shootings. It’s such a beautiful place with so many amazing people, it just sucks that it’s now associated with this evil and hateful person.
I'm disabled and chronically ill. My community is freaking out because many of us could **fucking die** if the ACA is repealed...
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Prepare for the worst. Get all your paperwork in order just in case. So you don't leave your loved ones with a mess to deal with, along with their grief. ❤
Feel u
* hugs * Your life is still worth maintaining with dignity, in case you needed to hear that. I too have a chronic condition that will eventually lead to disability, so I'm a bit uncertain about the future myself. The only thing giving me hope right now (besides sheer denial) is the fact that good humans still exist and mutual aid is still possible. We just don't know how bad it's going to get yet.
Sheesh😣 I’m soo sorry. That’s what makes me mad about all this. People didn’t think that it would affect vulnerable people. Even VA benefits will be dismantled.
that's why i feel furious that young men voted for trump just to make a statement about "stop blaming cis white men for everything" like it's insane to me the complete lack of awareness/empathy for people who could be seriously harmed by their vote. im disabled as well, im very lucky that my disabilities are dynamic and treatable and im able to work as a special ed teacher, but im very worried about the students i work with. public schools are more than just a place to learn, for many kids it is the only safe place where their needs are met. it's insane that he wants to completely abolish the department of education and these chronically online men are choosing NOW of all times to "make a statement" about their issues when they are not the ones who's lives are at risk. not even gonna get into how women and lgbtq people are in danger now too because that's a whole other rant. it's so frustrating and im so sorry. i know what it's like to feel like people just don't care. i promise a lot of us do care and are fighting to protect you.
18:36 I think it's worth remembering that this 'more concrete idea of masculinity' -- that is, a monogamous man with a house and a wife and 2.5 kids that he fully financially supports on his one income -- was only ever available to a very small slice of even cishet men, even in the 50s. You had to be white and you had to be at least middle class and you had to live in the suburbs. This concept of historical masculinity is largely a construct built off of media and marketing (including wish fulfillment advertising at the time). Most families had both parents working in some form or another because they didn't have the means to survive off of one income. Most people didn't live in their own nuclear family unit in a house that they owned; many people lived with multiple generations because that's how you afforded a place to live and the hands to deal with the cooking and cleaning and mending and childcare. There's no way to 'return' because this was never a reality to begin with.
The Behind the Bastards podcast has a couple of episodes on the history of masculinity grifters and part of what they talk about is that masculinity has kind of always been in crisis. We construct these idealized concepts of what masculinity 'is' which makes people who don't measure up to this fictional standard--which very few people actually meet--feel inadequate. (This is a general 'we'.) (Also they are far from the first people to point this out, it's just the most recent example I am personally aware of.)
THIS PARTTTTT. Thank you!!! And it’s so interesting (though depressing) to see how this idea of masculinity is used to shame THE most privileged demographic in this country, this is absolutely not me defending the straight white hateful incels AT ALL, but it’s ironic that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are absolutely doing it to themselves, at this point, & not realizing that they are being PLAYEDDD by a system that wants them angry, wants them doubtful, insecure, incompetent, unfulfilled, etc. to further divide & separate us so that none of us can coexist peacefully & focus on fighting towards change that would benefit EVERYONE. Instead they’re feeding on this tired idea of “masculinity” that, like you said, never REALLY existed in the first place.
And in many other cultures to this day, women work. In pretty much all indigenous cultures, women worked and continue to work. They have always been hard workers.
Absolutely. "Yes, and..."
This reminds me of some of the Robert Bly-era Men't Movement rhetoric. You know about the crisis of masculinity? You know how sad it is that men no longer work with their hands or serve in the military, or fight in wars? (Which is basically Fight Club)...but the thing is...working class men still do all these things...and they always have. Whereas the men complaining about not working with their hands or being in the military are middle class white men who never did those those things in the first place.
Coming to this video with a very, very heavy heart
Currently in a relationship (5years) with a man who’s fallen into this right wing media propaganda, incapable of seeing through the false rhetoric and having a logical conversation. It’s been difficult to decide if I should continue or end things, considering we were about to buy a house together and get engaged. It’s just so unfair that I have to advocate for myself to even my partner.
Run. If your partner is toxic and doesn’t respect you as an equal, RUN. He will only get worse.
Get out of there as quickly as possible.
I'm so sorry.
Please leave. A partner that will not respect you or see your humanity will inevitably mistreat and even be dangerous
No amount of time spent together is worth continuing a relationship with someone who fundamentally doesn't respect you as a person. Thankfully, 5 years is not that long at all in the grand scheme of things (I've been with my partner for 8 years), and it'll be a lot easier to break things off now compared to going through a divorce later. If you have these types of concerns now, they'll only grow as you entangle yourself more with him.
This is so spot on. So many people I know who were previously not right leaning are now. My sister, who *used* to hate trump now supports him and that really hurt bc she was one of the first and only family member to support my gender identity.
So many ppl believe a trump presidency is going to fix everything. They think Republicans actually care about citizens. Seeing my sister turn to the right was really eye opening to me, but she said something about how it's the economy, it's the fact she'll "never go to college" (not true, she absolutely can and wont--shes dropped out twice) and bc of the way things have been going between 2020 to now, she thinks it's a Democrat issue. She thinks he'll end foreign wars as if he didn't say he's actually going to make things worse and "help finish Palestine off"
It's really sad the right wing stuff. It's like we didn't learn anything from gamergate or anything.
That is so sucky, I'm sorry. I'll take her place in supporting your gender identity and I promise to resist the empire of cruelty 💙
@@phoenixritchie3670I appreciate you so much. She claims she still supports me but idk anymore :( she didn't vote and lives in Pennsylvania, a swing state. Her vote really mattered. She said if she would have voted she would have chosen trump
@@sleepysadpoetdoes she really support you if she votes for someone who want to take away essential rights from you? :/
How did that happen?
17:56 I have to agree! I think EVERYONE has experienced loneliness more after 2020 especially. But I think the big difference is women actually invest in relationships outside of their partner so even if we’re single, we have community. It’s not our fault that men don’t do that as much and not our job to fix but they want to blame it on women.
Women are more open and vulnerable, and toxic masculinity culture (redpill content) tells men to not be open, vulnerable, or in touch with their feelings, which causes them to be disconnected from themselves and, therefore, everyone else.
Even as a very lonely, autistic woman, it's never occurred to me to become an extremist.
I don't understand this argument (not attacking you, just discussing) like how does loneliness lead to misogyny, racism, and anti-semitism?
I understand most people are just people, no one has an agenda against me for not wanting to be around me or be by friend, the world isn't stacked against me. I'm just shy and awkward, I don't understand social interaction as much as other adults do and that's a turn off. It's unfortunate but it's the way things are.
Even in all of my loneliness, it's never occurred to me to hate ANYONE.
@ exactlyyyy. They just cannot take accountability. I love this comment!
Even women without community behave differently.
I've lost some friends in the last years and I have trouble keeping up with friendships, so I have very little social interaction and am terribly lonely. I've been bullied growing up, so I've basically always felt this way.
It's horrible, but I can still control how I act and if I felt myself not being able to do that anymore I'd try to access urgent mental health care. I can empathize with other lonely people to an extent, but yes there's no excuse for hatred! Plus, in my experience it's so hard to talk to lonely men because they will invalidate your suffering and punish you for theirs. I've been trying to help, but I'm just tired and want them to leave me alone.
@@alyssamendoza7708 I think it's important to understand that men are socialized to not be emotionally open and when they do they are ignored if not punished for it by misogynistic men and women. It is not in their nature to do those type of things.
(Disclaimer: just started the ep, so there’s a good chance you cover this!) But, can I just vent about how absolutely EXHAUSTED I am with trying to appeal to men by the way of relating women back to them? Like the whole, “think about your sister or mother or daughter while voting” reasoning. Like… no! You should care about women because they are human beings. It just furthers the idea that we are only important as to the extent we can relate back to men. Especially the kind of young, white, privileged men you cover in this video. It further supports the societal structure that things need to be made to work for them. I saw it time and time again during the election season and it drove me (a little) insane.
i mean we do exist but get constantly bundled in with all the other men who are morally challenged
That’s the tea, isn’t it? Most men don’t support women’s rights at all. They rather punish us instead and then blame us when women end up hating men 🫠
I mean.... one side said to men "you must vote me for the sake of women! Otherwise you are worthless", the other side said "you are not terrible." And now we live with the consequences.
And people still wonder why young men voted the way they did.
@@ulizez89Your comment doesn’t add anything to what I said. Yes, one side is pro women’s rights and the other is not. Solid observation.
@ulizez89 Trump said vote for me or you are the "enemy within". Or "poisoning the blood", or insert some other nasty nickname. And you wonder why we call him a fascist.
Trump voters may not all be fascists, racists, ra pists, etc but they are all carrying water for fascists, racists, rap ists.
just so frustrated and disappointed with people in this country right now. it’s sad that we’re heading down such a dark timeline rn
This Channel was not a pro Kamala Voting … I’m find odd some people are disappointed by the results of this election!?! How?!?! Did people really another candidate was going to win besides Donald Trump if they didn’t vote for Kamala ??? We got exactly what the majority wanted !!! Trump even won by the popular vote!!!
@@Horus070 not sure why you're replying to me
can't wait to watch the whole thing, just wanted to say thanks for making this video! a friend who works in Quebec schools just shared how boys here are obsessed with Tate and other misogynists and asked me for some content countering that. so worrisome.
He also made an episode specifically on Tate if I remember correctly!
Omg it’s in Quebec schools now ?
@@koolio21able I know! I was hoping French would serve as a language barrier to guys like Tate but apparently not :(
let’s not forget about école polytechnique 🥲
@@magicfaithdestinyThat was the one in which the female and male students were lined up on opposite sides of the room, right?
I'd want to do more reading to really formalize this take, but I really suspect that it's not so much that the right is "winning" men, as much as... this is already the mindset they're socialized to have. Like, the freaking manosphere is really just the distillation and amplification of all the messaging towards mascs in the last century. The situation to me is much clearer when you think of it as patriarchal systems trying to repel change, rather than trying to grapple with individual reasons why someone might be drawn in. They were already in it, the system is just getting desperate
EDIT: Lorenz's point about how much the right dominates online spaces where young men are actually interacting probably does a lot to explain this lol
Historically men have lent more left than women, men shifting right and women left is a recent phenomenon
Historically the internet was primarily left wing and male. It really changed and switched up around 2016ish. Why do you think that is if the current situation is a reflection of men's "true nature"
is there a leftist joe rogan? yes his name is hbomberguy but due to his angry chihuahua syndrome we can only let him out once every two years
Leftists value accurate research and actually doing the work to get things right. When all you do is make up BS all day and lie lie lie, it is a lot easier to push out "content" with mass repetition.
Listen I’m an enjoyer of his content but that is NOT the masculine populist role model for disenfranchised young men of the left
hmm, i don't think he has a rogan energy, he's just a great creator
His name is Joe Rogan
Considering that everyone means something different when they say „leftist Joe Rogan“ this is just as valid as everything I‘ve seen on the matter.
I’m in Canada and things are getting bad here too. Our election is next year and I’m so scared. I hope things will get better somehow, but I’m so heartbroken.
It does not look good, eh? I'm in Alberta and it's so bad...
I really hoped Canada would be spared but then i remembered how you had your conservative truckers block a city and thought, "welp, it's in canada, too". I hope Canadians learn from our experience, and Trudeau does something different and goes on your Canadian version of Joe Rogan.
@@s.a.w5493I’m also in Alberta, I’m non binary and have lots of binary trans people as friends. People have restarted hormones before they can afford them because they’re worried about access if they’re not grandfathered in
I apologize as an American because our bigoted fumes are leaking into Canada and making things worse
@@toddsutherland my best friend was trans, he passed away in 2020. Everyday I’m so scared of Canada becoming a country that wouldn’t be kind to him, Poilievre’s takes on trans rights are not it.
"Ironically first then not so"
I see this pattern both in extreme right wing movements as well as closeted queer people and afaik it's unnamed and unstudied, I think people use irony to embody what they're both compelled to be and afraid to be seen as
Yes!! It's also a way to test the waters with your audience and to make things that are not socially acceptable to say "say-able."
This. Bigoted people will test the waters with "punch down" jokes and if their audience laughs, gradually the jokes become* "truths".
with right wing politics, its called "schrodinger's douchebag". everything's a sincerely held belief until they get called out, then it's "just a joke".
After watching my little brother go right wing it’s been really sad. I think it’s partially a sense of frustration about economic opportunities and the way capitalism is squeezing us all. I think what really is the kicker is all the right wing people taking the worst fringe examples of people on the left saying “white men are all cancer you, get the bullet” and playing that on repeat until they are under the impression that the left thinks that as a whole. Now should young cis young guys look at that with a more critical eye and be like that’s clearly not representative of the left and I’m being played in order to market overpriced creatine supplements? Yes. Will that introspection happen organically? Probably not.
One thing you can say to him is that most progressives agree those people are annoying. It really is possible to ignore them, they are addicted to failure and incompetence and it’s a total waste of time to worry about them. They will never cause change because they’re deeply unlikable. I mean maybe show him someone like destiny who’s hated by the left but isn’t a right wing weirdo? That might get him out of it
Yeah that's the thing, trying to police speech is kinda useless when it comes to optics because there will always be some dickhead on the internet saying inflammatory shit, and the right can just easily blare it on repeat on all channels and it doesn't matter how everyone else behaves. Instead the trick is drowning out their propaganda with our own.. the issue is that they're well funded by shady billionaires and have platform owners supporting them and censoring us.
I mean, there are some young men who avoid that trap without outside help.
My younger cousin was able to avoid falling for those snake oil salesmen. But its bitter sweet because he's just become completely disillusioned with politics. So he decided not to vote in this election at all.
I think that for every young man whose gone right wing. There's another young who is so jaded that he doesn't want to touch politics at all.
I mean.... are they wrong though? I don't like Trump, or republicans or democrats (they are super right on my view). But I can't deny that the left and democrats have spent the past 2 decades demonizing men, and in particular young men, nothing but hate towards them.
Hell, in this very podcast they started talking about how maybe male teenagers need a little empathy from them and not one second later they spent like a minute talking about how much they would hate doing that and how awful that sounds so.... yeah, no wonder young males voted for Trump, how could they not when the other side only hates them!
The introspection goes both ways.
Why the F is a whole party demonizing men on such a regular basis?
When was it ok to be misandrist?
We took down Andrew Tate... PLEASE take down THE VIEW and the ppl that started the "choose the bear thing"...
Also look at what happened to Bernie Sanders. He has black and white pictures of him marching for women's right... Yet he was branded a misandrist and misogynist...
If the media that support a "progressive" party can do that...
YEH it is BAD...
Look at joe rogan supporting berine... He has not changed his political views btw...
So ask yourself.What happened...
WHO NEEDs to introspect...
I started at UCSB the year after the shooting, meaning all of my teachers and most of my classmates were present for it. I remember hanging out with friends one day and looking up our “name + the hedgehog” (part of a popular internet meme at the time) to see fanart that went with our names. One of the results we clicked on was fanart of a hedgehog with the first paragraph of the shooter’s manifesto pasted in, and not recognizing it at first, I started reading it off before my friend (whose had lost a friend in the shooting) stepped in and told me the source of the text. I know there’s a lot of writing about people accidentally encountering specific trauma or shooting jokes on the internet, but I hadn’t connected the memeification of incels with this experience. I don’t know if this will resonate, but I felt the need to share and to thank you.
I attended UCSB when that happened. It was the first time many of truly found out about incels and manosphere. Scary stuff and its disgusting to see how much worse this has gotten.
@@UniquelySustainable i am so sorry that you had to endure that! sending you the biggest virtual hugs!!!
if you need an internet friend to talk to, i am here.
commenting for algorithm and to mention that Matt, I want you to know that on election night I cried in a bar with guys I had met that night and bonded with over your videos and tweets. Community is still here, and you're part of the glue. Thank you for all you do.
I've gotta say, as someone who is the direct result of two families where marriages WERE more egalitarian and equal than what I'm starting to gather was the norm of my grandparents' generation, my patience for raging misogyny is already at a damn minimum. Did my either of my grandfathers ever talk about their feelings? No. Did they do their own ironing and cook breakfast for the kids when both grandmas were too busy without bitching about feeling emasculated? yes according to my parents. My dad and brother are both (mostly) healthy male role models, an overwhelming majority of the men in my family are normal about women and other genders (even if in an awkward old person they got the spirit if not the vocab). The guys I grew up with had a very healthy respect for the farm girls who could kick their asses. Doing better is very accessible and easy as far as I'm concerned and I want some more consequences for con artists poisoning young guys' minds like Andrew Tate, AND the social media platforms who have enabled it.
Tate has been taken down most men and women and ANYBODY sees him as the demon he is...
NOW THE VIEW... The people who started the "CHOOSE the bear"
The ppl who somehow think it is OKAY to be racist and sexist toward white guys...
The gender politics that went too far it became PC sexism and racism...
YEH, please WE ALL NEED TO DEAL WITH THAT!
Go watch Joe rogan... Just pick 3 random interviews... He has done.
You will see what i mean...
How can THAT GUY be seen as a right conservative?
Makes no sense.
As someone who's not from the US the discussion about the relationship of the Democrat party and corporate media vs the internet was so interesting. You also confirmed my feelings that a large issue is that the Democrat party isn't even left wing to begin with.
"i get demonitized automatically" nooo give him the money youtube
Oh, thank god, you're here. Talk me down, Matt. Talk me DOWN.
(P.S. New fan, but I have no idea how I'm only just now finding you. You're incredible. ❤️)
so, my perspective comes as a bi trans man whos been on T for ~4 years. while i'm aware that complaints about men within left or queer community spaces aren't directed towards me, i still get a little skeeved out at times. it feels like i have to out myself, but in doing so it can feel like they have to rationalize me as Not A Man. it makes me want to disengage from my communities. so i cant say i don't understand why the archetypical cishet white man could feel turned off. this doesn't mean they're right, though.
i'll never be pushed towards the right because of this, and it is certainly not womens' (or other minotiries') faults in the slightest. but it leaves me feeling like i have minimal space within any community. i unfortunately feel it a LOT within trans spaces especially, as they seem to mostly be geared towards feminine leaning people. i'm a chubby, hairy, not particularly gnc man. if you saw me on the street id just be another white man. but i also don't feel fully welcome in cis male spaces, queer or otherwise. i am lonely, but so are many others. i just wish i had a community. it feels like my own treats me differently now that they can no longer pretend i'm not a man.
i've rambled enough and this is probably only tangentially related, but i feel like people forget about trans men frequently. apologies for the word vomit in your comments
Thank you for saying this, def a perspective I haven’t seen before. I rarely see people discuss how masculinizing hormones by themselves are so effective for presenting as a man, but I’ve never considered how that might pressure people to out themselves to avoid getting grief in casual conversations.
And yes, it’s aggravating to spend your energy researching your positions, educating yourself about social justice, voting blue your whole adult life, to be rewarded by being told you are the problem, you suck, and maybe you’re “one of the good ones”
Hey I don't forget about trans men :) but yeah I heard this from cis men too that "patriarchy" is an insult to them. The problem with this is, like, it's not true? Something being a problem on a societal level doesn't mean it's an insult. People being racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, whatever can be an insult towards people but it's not meant like this in general discussions if you say people have homophobic attitudes for example. Like a lot of people would be like "I'm not homophobic, excuse me?!?" but it's a societal problem. In building up societal structures, most fundamentally laws, certain groups of people get forgotten and it won't impact the lawmakers fault, but it will impact a lot of people. Sorry, it's kinda difficult to explain, and I'm a bit drunk and tired, so forgive me😅
Valid, and understandable. I'm transfemme, and while I really dislike the manosphere, I also find it troubling when our own community sometimes responds to misogyny by bashing masculinity in general, without even considering how disrespectful it is to our transmasc siblings, not to mention all the cis guys who aren't part of that obnoxious culture.
People shouldn’t essentialize you, identity isn’t a straightforward proxy for beliefs and experiences. There is a 2010s tumblery obsession with identity above all other forms of organizing that is now strongly associated with anything left of center. I still think the Democratic Party is largely responsible for this by moving focus away from alleviating material concerns to going all in on demographic destiny and empty social gestures.
I will say, if some communities view men skeptically, it is at least partially from trauma. Male communities tend to demean outgroups much more brutally than the parallel examples we’re talking about. The unfortunate reality, however, is that the alienation of men results in reactionary politics and the increased dominance of an already powerful group at the expense of minority rights.
This isn’t to say that men should just suck it up and behave, but it is politically expedient for minorities to figure out how we can get enthusiastic participation from people who can easily become our oppressors.
always interesting to hear other perspectives
To me the male loneliness epidemic is moreso caused by a culture of people telling men that it’s gay to cry and love your friends, so they become increasingly isolated in the world and feeling like they can’t express themselves because they have to be strong and move through the world without showing pain. But then that same society turns around and tells them they’re monsters or weird for showing pain and wanting love.
It’s more nuanced than that obviously, but that’s how it feels
this is so depressing. they would rather sink further than change their ways.
Funny Tyler Durden in Fight Club was like " Let's blow up credit card companies to wipe debt off the face of the earth " but modern men are looking up to dudes who in there true form are just Jordan Belfort or other scammers.
Hyper masculinity in fight club was bad but at least the dude wanted everyone to be debt free lol. Now these guys want to be the very rich dudes Tyler Durden would tell his male followers " Your not your fucking khakis " like lol how things have shifted not gonna lie.
That's because your entire ideology is cooked. What does the left have to offer young men that they want?
For real. As a man, I thank my family every day for the fact that they raised me right. If it wasn’t for them and their advice, I would’ve fallen into the manosphere trap a long time ago.
You cannot force someone to change.
My grandma and I both love your videos! As a trans person, I sometimes struggle to explain what's happening in the world and in our politics. I share your videos with my family, and they find them really informative. Thank you so much!
All we have now, globally, is each other. We have to stop fighting each other over petty shit and really stick together.
sneako is honestly even worse than that. I saw him arguing that the age of consent should be lowered to basically "whenever you reach s*xual maturity". Dude is not even gross, he's straight up dangerous.
He's a troll. Saying stuff like this for clicks.
Sneako might unironically be a PDF. He's disgusting.
You know that some people might not take it as him trolling, right? His audience is mostly kids.
If you're looking at the last four years, understand that stress makes you more conservative. I've seen in it in my brothers and sisters, who through the pandemic lost all romantic relationships, had several month-long sequences where no one amongst my siblings were working, and some of them were trying to look after their children. One went apocalyptic and has ended up currently homeless and on the streets of another city, one has turned to conspiracy theories because he has broken trust with any mainstream media, one who has moved on to a much more conservative church and went claustrophobic living in the city, and another who is ho-hum but that is because she is autistic like me. It's going to take a decade of work to get them more well adjusted.
If we're talking about the last decade and some, then we have to factor in that a lot of men lost prospects because of unstable work and a loss of public spaces to practice sociability because of the recession and stalled recovery.
Yaaay!! Taylor is back! ^w^ I love your guys' conversations.
The problem is that, in general, we raise girls and boys differently. Girls are taught about emotions and relationships. Boys are taught that the only acceptable emotion is anger. Why are we still doing this?? I don't have kids, so I don't understand.
It’s getting better slowly but it takes a while to see the results. And social media can inhibit people’s ability to recognise and manage their emotions. But yeah, I wasn’t soothed as a boy, my dad said I was seeking attention whenever I was upset and treated me like my emotions were just annoying
Hormones have a higher influence in one's behavior then socialitation.
I can't believe this talking point is still a thing. Even from youth I was taught about my emotions and handling whichever one came up.
It was during all the online feminiwt rhetoric about toxic masculinity that made myself and other men feel awful and sometimes s**cidal.
Men being socialised into seeing anger as the only acceptable emotion is because people only take men seriously about their emotions when they show anger
If you are sad? Disappointed? Frustrated? Upset insecure? Anxious? No one really cares unless you show that as anger and now people care.
Overtime everything is expressed as anger or seen as anger by others
People have to start letting men explore and express their feelings more profoundly and start taking them seriously
I’m also a gay, and I’ll just say that I do think shows like yours are actually extremely important, even to straight men. Once upon a time, I made videos and I was always shocked at how many straight guys tuned in? Tbh I never fully figured out why. Maybe they were bi curious and had a crush on me? Or maybe they got an ego boost when they compared themselves to me? I don’t really know, but Id like to think that part of the reason was that I illustrated that there are many ways to be a man beyond traditional gender roles. And I have to think the same is true for you. Like you can be a man who’s buff and logical and thoughtful while also having a lot of emotional intelligence and sickening nails. Like what’s NOT bad ass about that?
So while I do agree with Taylor’s point that Hasan (and other stereotypical hetero men) may be more palatable to a broad audience at first glance, I also think men who break away from this mold serve a really important role too. It’s folks like us who show what alternative expressions of being a man can look like. And that becomes especially important when you’re trying to explain things like “toxic masculinity”. If men think there’s only one acceptable way to be a man, then “toxic masculinity” is a hard sell because it sounds like you’re saying all men are toxic.
Anyway.. great podcast as always 😊 I always love hearing what you and Taylor have to say about these issues
Why this insistence on practically "forcing" another idealization of what a men "should" be?
As somewhat a transmasc I’m kinda obsessed with the idea of masculinity haha. The right grifter often asks what is woman, but it’s weird that they rarely look into what is a man in the same scrutiny they do to invalidate trans woman.
Anyway I’m personally empathetic a little bit with ‘the male loneliness epidemic’ when the frame to show socialization in men is so oppressive. But also because they’re in a position that they can easily shy away from actual problems, it’s kinda fascinating. One of the things being a woman gave me was the intense hopelessness of my situation. Women are weaker and easily assaulted and oppressed as they say. However because of that it’s easier to see the flaw in our structure of patriarchy. Men though, they feel like shit for sure, but not in a way that the society groomed women to tolerate with. They’re taught to challenge frustrations through anger and oppression maybe? Because the frame of what it means to be a man is so small, young men probably are told that’s the only thing they have to be. However being a man is not constantly putting down like being a women, so idk it’s easier to deal with your own hopelessness, existential pain and lack of your own mission in this world through blaming the others: women, gays, trans, queers whatever, instead of facing the problem heads on which is largely our system.
Not to mention the nature of storytelling as we humans telling ourselves often glorifies either the great man, or the under dogs right? For the marginalized and oppressed it’s easy to feel a strong mission to seek back power that’s been stolen. But most of these guys are somewhat privileged from the system, but not privileged enough to escape fundamental human grievances. They are not taught to be a victim, but they are not the chosen great men either. It’s easier to choose to deal with it by being this toxic radicalized male than seeking to understand what is actually wrong with our system. They also get a sense of community on top of that by being a vile misogynistic men.
In the world that’s made for them, it’s more comforting to have the feeling like their problem is at most importance than turn around and just realize that we humans are fucked no matter what gender we are. At least that’s my take.
fellow trans guy here!! i will say, I think that the general attitude on the left has been dismissive of men, not maliciously but in a way that feels rather frivolous until you're seen in society as just another white dude? it's not oppressive by any means but there are moments where men's feelings are hurt and overlooked and I think that the left could be more tactful in their approach to men, particularly young white men. that being said, the ignorance is the bigger problem here; women have every reason to be angry with men, and men have basically nothing but this "aw man women are allowed to stand up to me now??" bitterness to stand on by contrast. the left lacks both the reach and also the appeal (the right tells men they deserve the world handed to them and are superior to the rest of society, and the left tells men they are the problem; I know which one is right, and I know which one probably sounds better to a teenage white boy) to have appealed to those young white men. I do my best to reach out to them as "just some white guy" it feels like being some kinda agent in disguise sometimes. to be empathetic to women is super easy if you've experienced it but a lot of guys don't know I have and are much more willing to hear out just some other white man
this was a really great episode about a topic a whole lot of people are weighing in on at the moment. taylor is absolutely spot on about the media landscape and how difficult it is for truly “left” voices to become influential. people who are genuinely critical of wealth and power are more often suppressed, not propped up.
Well, good job spending this entire podcast doubling down on the BS that lost you this election. You’re clearly learning a lot!
I’ve been following stuff like this since about 2015/2016, and I will say I saw this coming after GamerGate and that’s why a lot of the people involved are gamers and twitch streamers. After GamerGate, there was an insurgence of “Anti-SJW” rhetoric on UA-cam with guys like Leafy.
Good point. The likes of Alex Jones, leafy, and others at that point THRIVED off of it. It's because it garnered views and attention.
Ok that influencer infographic is WILD. I consider myself very left politically/chronically online and I haven’t heard of a single one of the left influencers but I have heard of ALL of the right ones. 😳
I can’t believe V from Under The Desk news is on there - they are staunchly centrist! No wonder so many of those people have no pull, most of them are just pushing the same old Dem talking points
It was really cathartic hearing Taylor go off about the disconnect between the Democratic Party and the online progressives.
online proggressives have a intrinsic repeling effect to men
The cousin of a former coworker of mine is one of the people who arrested Andrew Tate
How they feel about it? Were they happy? I know I’d be giddy 😂
@@Wraiven22 She was pretty proud of her cousin after recognizing him in the video of Tate's arrest and getting him to confirm her observation
One of the best things that got me away from reactionary thinking when I was a younger guy was reading bell hooks. She really does a great job explaining how patriarchy hurts everyone.
Why are you capitalizing her name?
@ I didn’t know she stylized her name in lowercase, corrected it
Bell Hooks is outdated.
This podcast just secured a JD Vance vote from me.
based on the fact you literally only subscribe to conservative channels im pretty sure that was your plan already lol....just showing up loud and in bad faith
I’m so confused, elections already happened, how will you vote for Vance? A bot?
i audibly cheered "YES!" when you said taylor would be on this episode. i adore her work and you guys have such great chemistry and conversations on this show
They way they talk about this is part of the problem. Like I really don't think they understand the male loneliness epidemic. It's not that men weren't lonely then, it's that now the old ways are eroding and people don't know what to do. Add to that all the ways people are being isolated now and the messaging men deal with and it's no surprise they turn to the right.
The Left, to be blunt, sucks at messaging. Using words like patriarchy and capitalism, while right, isn't how you're gonna move people. You have to talk to them like you're a human being. THat's something the Right is VERY good at.
Respectfully, the right don't talk to them like human beings, they coddle and comfort them like parents who tell their children they'll defeat the monsters in their closets. The point that the two hosts in the video make is that this is a lie; we are all lonely and alienated. And once these obscenely wealthy and powerful people see no more use for them, they will be discarded along with the rest of us.
@@nabilahalshari7880 They're wrong. Both of them, and this talk is an example is why the right is winning them over.
They talk to them like people whether you accept it or not.
i agree, I think that conversations within this part of the internet community, and especially in smaller communities like queers, are secluded, so although we may understand what we mean by patriarchy and capitalism, for other people is just buzzwords. For example, I think a lot of people see us queers based on the corporate rainbow capitalism rather than our culture, thought, etc, because it is what is right in front of them, they don't know the full extent of the nuance these conversations have in the actual community, that we denounce rainbow capitalism while also supporting things like greater representation and pride as its original form, as a form of protest, only what is right put in front of them, so ive seen a lot of people conflating that with the actual community.
@ I think you have to let go of the notion of queer culture and “our”. That only represents a small portion of that population, the culture always did. It didn’t welcome all queer people.
There is also no “our” as evidenced by all the different stances and groups queer people have.
People to have stop pretending there is some unifying thread queer people have when it never existed. There is no mutual support in that community, only for those who fit in .
@@Njirimara in other words:
Modern politics of the Left inadvertently ended up creating another minority - cis-het white men.
Im not an angel but I don't see what's wrong with saying I deserve love in the same way women deserve love
Excellent video. As touched on by Taylor and Matt, recognising and understanding the atomising effects of capitalism and how it ties into sexism and homophobia can appear quite abstract, impersonal, and even disempowering; it forces you to go against the grain, as most media and popular ideas prop up or accept the status quo - Meanwhile, placing all the blame on those who seem to have "directly hurt you" can feel way more empowering and obvious. It gives you a clear target to direct your pain at.
love ur pfp 💛
Who better to understand young men than a very flamboyant gay man and Taylor Lorenz 🙄
AHHHHHHH TAYLORRRRR I AM SO LOCKED IN GIRLIES LETS GO HAVE A CHIT CHAT WITH THESE MEN
I honestly think that on the left we have this problem of not really being open to men while also trying to be like "well misogamy and the patriarchy hurts men to" only to never actually bring up these problems outside of trying to get men on our side
as a neurodivergent woman seeing the "male loneliness epidemic", i can only think: im lonely too! i struggle to socialise with others because i feel so different to them! i feel like i cant connect with others because im so weird! ive heard this from others, but i also do think a lot of incel men are autistic and struggle to make interpersonal connections for the same reason - feeling fundamentally different to fellow humans. maybe thats why this movement appeals to younger men too, who are also struggling socially because theyre still developing and havent learned all the social rules yet surrounding dating and maintaining relationships. it gives them a quick, easy tip which is advertised as flawless
connecting with other humans is a skill gen z and beyond.lack because of isolation
You can't actual see the problem. If your answer to "Why are men feeling lonely" and you response with a "well I'm lonely too" you're in a bobble and you need to break out
If you want to genuinely want to to understand why young men are shifting right, you need to actually talk to them. Why would you invite Taylor Lorenz, a person who is clearly bias against this topic, to discuss their issues?
This is like inviting a white supremacist to talk about black issues. 🤦🏾♂️
The description of Aiden Ross killed meeee! The yappy dog comparison is spot on.
i really appreciate your content matt ,, despite how dark everything seems right now its been a good reminder that our community will be our light ❤❤
This conversation about the political inclinations of men feels inherently unfair, because male communities demean outgroups much more brutally than any of their parallel experiences of marginalization on “the left”. Despite this, men uniquely leverage their feelings of exclusion into antisocial violence.
But that can’t be where the analysis stops. It is politically expedient for minorities to figure out how we can get enthusiastic participation from people who can easily become our oppressors. The alienation of men results in reactionary politics and the increased dominance of an already powerful group at the expense of minority rights - it isn’t fair, but we have to learn to avoid it.
That is true, but it is also true that men in general are automatically the ingroup of such groups. Hence how easy it is to radicalize to a violently hateful ideology when you are behind the gun.
the longer you pathologize other ppl the longer you wont get it.
I am a millennial who lives under a rock. Every time you say, "I probably don't have to explain this, but there's one person who doesn't know..." Hi, it me. I'm that person
First of all, thanks for the video. It was a really cool and important conversation. Second, I'm realizing how impossible it is to build community in youtube. I was going to write something adressing some of the ideas in the video but then I thought "what for, I'm gonna get bombed with trolls and the video authors are not gonna engage anyway". I feel like it's impossible now to connect productively with people in the internet as an audience member, even with other people from the audience. Man I miss forums and blogs...
I feel you, the amount of times I spend 20 minutes writing something detailed and well thought out and then delete it because the thought that someone is going to either skip past everything but the first sentence or start a senseless argument is too emotionally draining for the kind of person I am lol UA-cam could do a lot more to foster a forum and blog style system within comment sections or channels, but thats less time people watch videos and ads so it'll never happen i guess :(
Welcome back! I really have appreciated your positivity throughout this week on Insta. Thank you Matt ❤
As a straight, cis, gen z man, you guys absolutely nailed the reasons for the “male loneliness epidemic” and articulated why a left Joe Rogan can’t work. Although something I will say is that even if they had a bench of talent and the infrastructure aping Joe Rogan just wouldn’t work. It has to be genuine, authentic and strongly based on the creators communications style and personality. Like Hasan and this platform as well. Trying to “mirror” the right will seem hollow, fake and obvious.
Its rlly funny to me that the “male loneliness epidemic” seems to imply that men are depressed bc they’re not given complete access to women anymore.
That’s the characterization of it, but the truth is that men and women alike enforce a paradigm in which male suffering is dismissed as weakness or defect. Women are not innocent in this.
This reminds me to a podcast i was listening the other day, and It was about this topic that said that if s3x w0rk was legalize there' would be no incels, and that he was saying that wouldn't ve the solution because that Will be a simple way of thinking but in reality that's not the solution necause that won't do anytying to stop them for being radicalize, in fact that would radicalize thek more because they would think that with the right amount of money they can treat women as slaves.
I Hope you understand, english IS not my first language.😂😂😂
Right? It's like cishet w. men cant thrive UNLESS other identities are subjected to them. This sounds like a skill issue to me.
🤦🏾♀️
I’m just going to spit ball into the void I’m not really expecting much to come of this and that’s fine. It seems like a fine line, where the snake is eating itself. This is coming from a young man (18 going on 19 in January) myself who is lonely and by all technicality fit most of the description for boys vulnerable to the manosphere thinking especially after the pandemic, I don’t have friends irl, never dated, I’m an average joe in the looks department just a fat though, never had a girlfriend, and the only communities I’ve known like that were online spaces, especially after the pandemic, and etc. If we strip down the manosphere redpill space to the basic reasons of why it exist it’s a response to a loneliness crisis felt by everyone, combined with probably not the best childhood but that varies, sometimes boys don’t have either parent, maybe they have one but it’s not a functional one, and etc. Me personally I grew up without a biological father who’d go around sleeping with women so much he’d cross state lines to do so, changing his identity, lying, and having a new past that he’d tell everyone other woman he met. I have a stepfather but he not a good role model, in fact he shows me almost everyday since I was twelve in what not to do. Having anger spikes and constantly drinking, getting pissed at the smallest things. I’ve lived on the poverty line my entire life, I’ve lost whatever male and female friends I had to a combination of the pandemic and the manosphere thing. My ex best friend literally moved schools just because he couldn’t get a girlfriend in the 6th grade. The other friend crashed out and became “blackpilled” way before it was popular. I watched that way of thinking destroy their lives. But going back to why I said was a snake eating itself, a self inflicted prophecy is because it promises thing nine times out of ten it can’t offer young men. They say I can get you mad rich if you follow my step and unplug yourself from the matrix. Boys end trading a sad reality of how the world truly works for a pathetic lie that siphons even more of their time, energy, and even money away from them. They say I can make you drown in women, if you treat them like trash. These are thing I can’t understand even in my the position I’m in now, by all means I should be an incel but I’m not, I’m just not interested in that in all that stuff. The goal is lost on the community, is getting a girlfriend even the goal anymore? Idk I just don’t know about anything. I just know one thing, boys will continue to get exploited by these types and it ends up in a illusion of reality that also parallels it as well. More well to do men in some ivory high castle will exploit less stable men, men of earth to giving up everything, it’s no different to being drafted to war or expecting to live to work, a lot of those systems more often then not have men at the helm blinded in their own hubris to exploit others under them to make us do their bidding. Recent events especially with the Tates only confirmed my original thoughts when they started to explode on the scene. It’s sad because those men haven’t escaped the matrix… Id argue they’ve entrenched themselves deeper into it, deeper into being exploited by the already powerful, Tate can’t give you a girlfriend who will truly care for you as a person, those people like fresh and fit can never give money, they just take it away, the list can go on. I don’t know what it takes to get a girlfriend, I don’t known what takes to be respected, or anything really. What I do know is that whatever the manosphere has nine time out of ten is most likely counterproductive, I mean just think about it, if their ideals worked why do incels who listen to types like Tate not have girlfriends, respect, wealth, or anything he’s promised yet? If there is one lesson that’s I’ve kept for years is to treat people the way you want to be treated. Telling women “your body my choice” just tells me you want to be treated as property as well, that you enjoy being exploited by people more powerful then you. You haven’t woken up from any matrix, you doubled down on it. Women are just going to end up clamping down in return, why date anyone when they run the risk of running into someone like yourself? There’s a difference between being confident a man, and being a jackass, especially for the types who want a family if you were to have a daughter would you really send her out in a world with people like yourself now? I don’t have any answers I just had my own story to share, cause ultimately I just don’t know, I don’t understand either.
@@raltzei8120very well said
Matt, thank you for covering these topics the way that you do. I've had a hard life, and it's really emotionally difficult for me to engage with the dark realities of current events if it's not coming from a voice that I can feel, deep in my bones, is on my team. Thank you so much for the work you do and the way you do it. Also, my husband came in while I was listening and said, "Wow, that person looks just like Natalie Portman," and meant it as a real compliment.
You do speak to the boys I'm a 43 year old straight white British male. Love your show x
Tate's ancestory may not be "the point all along" but his father and their relationship sure does explain a lot about how he became a colossal a-hole. His father sounded like a terrible human that treated his family horribly but was somewhat successful so his sons worshipped him and took him as a role model. Could have gone to therapy but they started Misogyny Inc instead
Men think that they are good at hiding their pain & brokenness. They are not, and most mature adult women can see right through it. I am sorry if you're a man and you're hurt and don't understand how to deal with your emotions (my parents didn't teach me that, either). But it's time to learn! Stop making dumb excuses and pretending to be tough! Read a book about dealing with your emotions! Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a good one to start with. Brene Brown writes really good books, too. Listen to women for once.
I was gonna say that, i have empathy but It has a limit, if i educated myself in a lot of things, why can't they? It's just so tiring.
lol just coating every bit of advice with venom, we appreciate the advice but jeez
Modern Psychology has been proven to not work for men.
Also, ignoring the fact that hormones have a higher influence in behavior then socialization is the main proof of my first argument.
It's a minor detail but 4chan was certainly not ever the front page of the internet (that is Reddit's slogan)-- by the time it hit the mainstream media, it was already far too consumed in its own identity as the gallows of the internet to be any kind of front page. This DID appeal massively to young men at the time though. It was inevitable you'd end up there if you were interested in games and/or anime or were invested in internet culture in general.
4chan was never the front page of the internet, but it used to be the first place where culture used to manifest and assume a form, and its derivatives got passed down to other sites, like reddit, tumblr etc. where they either got disseminated, or reformed, or pushed against.
Now, X (twitter) performs the same function more effectively, and 4chan is almost defunct.
I have to be honest: The question "Is there a leftist Joe Rogan?" has bothered me, because Joe Rogan endorsed Bernie Sanders in 2020
It’s just hard to reach out to young men when they call you slurs for doing so.
^
As a white straight cis guy myself here's my take on the male loneliness epidemic. As you guys said, it's really just a loneliness epidemic in general, what makes it harder for a lot of white men though, especially white men, is they don't have an identity it's okay to be proud of making even the online community harder for them. As I white straight cis man I don't have the right to be proud of any part of my born identity. Now as a well adjusted person with an understanding of the history of oppression I understand why that is the case and I can focus on the parts of my identity I choose myself (husband, father, runner, gamer, game developer, ally) and for a community from that.
However that is work other groups don't have to put in and when I was younger and not comfortable in my own skin I was definitely a prime target for these grifters. In fact, and I'm a bit ashamed of this, but what got me out was not the open bigotry, but the time Petterson said he believes ancient civilizations had knowledge about DNA through hallucinogenic drugs and that is why a lot of cultures depict snakes wrapped around each other. That was so looney I started questioning everything he ever said and slowly I worked my way to full-blown leftist with friends and family from all colors, creeds and spectrum.
I don't really buy into the "the left failed white men" narrative, but I do think this is something that needs to be communicated more clearly. When I believed men's rights were valid and necessary I was so much more miserable when I am now. Now I have friends who love who I am, I don't need to prove myself to them every single day. My closest friend is a gay dude that admitted he thought I was gay in the beginning and tried to hit on me, and still I regular gym with him and get naked in the changing room and it's just so nice not to care.
Feel like u redirected a lot of the anxieties and fears these right wing influencers prey on surrounding cis/white/male identity outwards and used that energy to invest back into ur community which made you a lot happier and less bothered about having an identity etched in things that become so arbitrary when u genuinely embed urself within diverse relationships and friendships. A lot of right wing rhetoric tries to convince white men that they’ve been erased from the public sphere just bc other identities r represented more when in reality there is space for everybody and more, &always has been. Happy for u!!!
men gain positive feelings thru camraderie.
I am sorry, but this woman doesn't understand young men at all.
Really good insight for Taylor around 12:00 that Tate is basically a more misogynistic Bilzerian.
thanks for posting a new episode, i've been watching reruns all week lol
As a cis gendered left leaning guy I’ve become more and more uncomfortable with a huge swath of my own gender. I suppose I’ve never fit in and in many ways never liked most other guys most of my life but the divide has grown so much and what I see being spewed by so many stereotypical fellow men out there feels so toxic and frankly threatening and scary and disconnected from any kind of world I want to live in.
Thank you for sharing.
If you’re a young man and feeling lost or struggling to make connections, look no further than the phone you’re probably watching this on. How do you stop feeling lonely when you’re too scared to put yourself out there and make friends and build relationships? I agree that the frustration is totally misplaced on women and marginalized communities, but they’ve basically been groomed for this shit since they were children. These boys don’t know how to behave in regular society and it’s really sad. The brainwashing by the manosphere is literally melting their little unformed brains.
When men are bashed by women in a daily basis for merely existing, what do you expect?
im fucking dying at the hasan thirst going off the rails near the end like ok same
I swear that I come in peace with this comment, but I want to add my 2 cents into this topic. I used to work as a social worker for 10 years up until last year. Worked primarily with younger men. In the last few years in particular, this subject has come up frequently with Younger Millennials and Gen Z. There is just a growing sense that they are being blamed for every conceivable wrong thing in society no matter what they say or act. I cannot count how many times young men have talked about this and have said something akin to: “I don’t even know what it is to BE a “man” today because we’re constantly told that we are the scum of the earth for just being here”. And unfortunately, there has been enough of this male hating/blaming sentiment in culture that has reinforced this that they genuinely start to believe it to their very soul and unfortunately, much of this finger pointing at them has come from the Left side of the political spectrum.
So, when the Far Right Strong Man arrives and looks them dead in the eye and tells them: “You’re right. They hate you. And it does NOT need to be this way anymore if you put ME in power”, you should not be surprised that so many young men are taking a risk with that side. Is there misogyny that needs to be talked and discussed? Of course. But there has most certainly been a massive amount of unintended backlash to the way it’s been talked about where many younger men now feel like they are being told that their struggles and problems don’t matter because TOXIC MASCULINITY is the REAL problem: Translation: The problem always has been, is, and always will be YOU.
Whether people on this channel want to admit this or not, you’re going to NEED young men and male support in general on your side and to aid in your cause by voting for or against things that put you in harms way and right now from what I have seen, they not only do NOT feel seen and heard by the Left, but the takeaway from most of them is that the left and all that push it’s agenda out right despise them. The vast majority of rationalization I’ve seen from this last election is misogyny and racism were the ONLY things that made Harris lose. Although there is an element of truth in this, I would ask all to exercise caution as casting that as the ONLY reason she lost because you are unintentionally again spitting in the face and talking down to the same group that you’re going to need in the future and the more you keep that up, the more younger men are just going to shrug their shoulders and continue to vote against you. I ran into a former client of mine a week before the election and asked him what he thought about it and his answer should give you insight into what is happening out here in the male community:
“Well, our choices are Crazy vs Preacher. And I am going with Crazy. Because Crazy doesn’t look down on me….and the Preacher does”.
Thank for the video, Matt.
I agree with your assessment around the 20 minute mark that the "source of men's loneliness is capitalism and patriarchy" but what I fear you might be missing is the fact that a man, or any person listening to that, is absolutely powerless to do anything about that by themselves. Any person would feel even more lonely when faced with that as their struggle. And that makes them an easier target for grifters selling them an easy solution like blaming women or queer people or immigrants.
I would love to hear a conversation like this that includes a straight man in the discussion. Because, whether we like it or not, if we want to understand and address men's issues, or what led them to vote for Trump like they did, we have no choice but to center men's voices and perspectives. At least for a little while. And that's something I'm not really hearing in discussions like this one.
capitalism, patriarchy, and well, the innate biological drive to seek out a sexual partner, lol. i'm not sold on this utopian ideal that abolishing oppressive social structures will magically make men content with being celibate
Wooo Taylor! As a trans person I feel comforted knowing that people like you two are out there doing real work unpacking these things. I don't really feel very safe out there, but at least I don't feel alone.
I really enjoy the two of you together. Such great chemistry!
Man i liked the last time this guest was on but tbh I felt a little disappointed this time. I felt like the solutions at the end were pretty funny in how vague they were, and tbh I felt like a lot of the analyzing of men's complaints got reframed as 'well everyone feels this way' as if we didn't just talk about how patriarchy works to keep men isolated and less socially connected than women. And I get it, most of us don't have the capacity for empathizing w people who so easily adopt hateful ideologies towards us and it's unreasonable to expect it generally. But she even identified that the right gives young men a path, a vision of manhood, and we on the left basically give nothing if they want to embrace that (unless teenage boys are suddenly into hours long video essays or all day leftist politicking to follow Hasan). And as a genderfluid/trans masc person myself, I've seen and experienced so much misandry type attitudes in leftist spaces just bc of my proximity to maleness that it's insane. And yeah misandry doesn't exist on a national systemic level, but we create our own walled gardens online where the only way to gain credibility is to reveal ur marginalized identities or trauma, otherwise u get blindly labeled as priveleged or whatever, ESPECIALLY if u have a dissenting opinion or question. And I tbh I felt gross when Taylor laughed away so many complaints that men seem to have, even when Matt try to sympathize w them. And I bring all this up bc I think, in general, we as the left don't really give a way into our politics unless you've got a lot of feminist theory already under ur belt (we are considered the party of out of touch elites). I feel like sometimes we're so concerned w being right that we don't think we need to sell our ideas the way the right does. Idk maybe it's not even possible, idk if what I'm saying is even a solution, but it is an issue I have that let's me sympathize w men.
Also, i feel like some (white especially) women are getting away w murder as we, the left, analyze these results. Even when canvassing in Pennsylvania, women would proudly tell me that they don't believe women are stable enough to be leaders, at the same rate as their male counterparts. Which isn't a critique of this video per se, but is something I constantly see missing when we talk about patriarchy, often leading to this false binary of patriarchy as men, women a collective against it.
I did really like how she pointed out that we need to stop being so purist/tipper gore in our approach to media (ppl yelling at Bernie for Rogan). Loved that
Love this pod, love when you have Taylor on
*Repeatedly calls young men who are voting right-wing incels*
"How is the right winning over young male voters?"
Young men are not babies and they know what they're doing perfectly well. Let's stop pretending that we need to walk them through the concept of basic respect for women like they're kindergarteners ffs this is ridiculous.
@@tinycatfromhell 👏👏
@@tinycatfromhell Basic respect for women? wth are you talking about? Imagine if you said this crap to a man and they just tell you "You need to learn the concept of basic respect for men." Respect has always been and will always be EARNED.
@@tinycatfromhell Young woman, however, apparently *are* babies because you clearly do need someone to to walk you through the concept of basic respect for men like you're kindergarteners. You are, indeed, ridiculous.
I highly recomend whatching fd signifier's recent video about the manosphere right after this one. They complement each other very well.
Joe Rogan did have a transwoman on his show…but it was Blaire White
A lot more of this is about untreated male trauma than most people want to admit. Reducing it to male loneliness is missing the point of the depth of pain and disturbance at stake.
18:39 I think it’s definitely not that men of those times weren’t lonely. Traditional masculine values are individualistic and isolating. I think the difference is that today’s young men are lonely without a blueprint. Even if the original blueprint didn’t address loneliness
I also love your phrasing of “I want to encourage them to deal with it,” like yes! It is not this insurmountable problem, it’s something we are all working to deal with. Loneliness is a key struggle right now.
Thank you for making this video. I hope it reaches the people it needs to.