I feel like a lot of people (Joe included) kinda gloss over the less literal parts of the ending and the story in general. By far the biggest reveal in the game is that Scratch isn't some evil doppelganger of Alan but Alan himself. His tendencies to violence, anger and substance abuse (which we hear quite a bit about throughout both games) that The Dark Presence feeds on (as it seems to feed on the worst aspects of people, like self doubt in Saga's case) and manifests it as Scratch. The game ends with Alan finally realizing that ("The hero turns to look inside, is destroyed but what he sees, and is redeemed") which allows him to finally properly work on getting out of The Dark Place. Sure, physically not much have changed for him but in terms of character developement it's a huge leap. "It's not a loop, it's a spiral" at first glance has a negative connotation meaning that if we don't work on our destructive behaviours we're not just looping around but actually spiraling down, but it also means that a spiral can be travelled the other way around and used to get out, which is what Alice means at the end by saying "the only way out is destruction or ascension". I think it's a very hopeful "ending" for Alan and I quite like it. Now obviously it's also sequel/DLC baity which I'm not a huge fan of and I agree that the Casey part was a bit random. It's like the game really wanted a physical antagonist for the finale which is super odd considering that we don't even fight him. Overall though I think it's a pretty good ending. I'm glad Joe enjoyed the game even though he didn't really feel the ending. Maybe it will grow on him. I beat the game 3 days ago so I had more time to articulate my thoughts.
I think a decent bit will be elaborated on and expanded in New Game +; contains an "alternative narrative" according to the devs, and we already know it has a new ending, new manuscripts and new videos. It's funny to see that with new game plus you keep your gameplay and upgrade progression, but now also your narrative progression as well. Of course Sam Lake would do that lol
(Spoilers) Honestly I think part of the narrative involving Casey so heavily at the end is a trick Alan is pulling to save Casey from fictional degradation. Throughout base game and ng+, even Alan is worried and confused about his placement in reality and for good reason. There’s heavy implications in the first game that Alan isn’t real and there’s some implications in ng+ that Alan looks so much like Zane and sounds so much like dr darling because darling somehow found his way into the dark place and met Zane. This would be saying Alan is a collaboration between the two as a possible backdoor or window out for the both of them. The difference between all these creators though is while Alan initially thought of Casey as a tool for his plot previous to the first game, he came to understand that the differences between fiction and reality are not so easily defined. If I was told my creations were on some level of existence real and had and felt emotions I’d probably be a bit more wary to throw them at the wall for a solution too. When I first finished the game I had asked myself “was any of that even real?” And I think the answer(like when Alan asked himself if he’d get out) is a solid “yes and no”. Would it have happened in the reality of the fiction? Possibly, anything is possible in a fictional story which the Alan wake universe is but I think it’s not so easy to define that since the first game established rules that the second game breaks. They kinda get away with this because of the clicker 4th dimensional plot device but I think that with this narrative you have to remember “Outside of everything im seeing, Wake has written this to happen and for a reason.” The last scene where wake, saga, and Casey get their happy ending is a way out for all of them that wake had envisioned the whole time. They had to get through the horror story though to earn it. Its a way for wake to in a way save himself and trap the dark presence, have saga play her part as the hero to the end by saving everyone, and essentially bringing Alex Casey to life as a real person. The horror story is over but Casey is still asking saga if it is. I have a feeling if Alan was a bit more careless we wouldn’t have gotten that last question out of Casey. Now the real question is “is Casey outside of the story real” which is again imo “yes and no” it might be confusing but remember that we’re dealing with a fictional world where reality is changed with a magic clicker.
I'm on a very similar boat here with the exception that I'd place the gameplay as "barely serviceable" instead of more than that. Especially towards the latter half of the game, gameplay was truly lacking (zero enemy variety, no special encounter design, entertaining exploration but with very little payoff, etc). I also loved Saga and i hope we see more of her. As for the ending itself, i pretty much agree with Joe here. To me the whole "Alan is Scratch, Scratch is Alan" thing just seemed so obvious that I really didn't feel shocked or surprised at all and since that's kinda the "big reveal" the whole final third of the game lacked any significant payoff and the ending sequence itself for me was like "so.. we're basically at almost the same point as at the start of the story??" That felt bad to me. Great game otherwise, enjoyed it a lot.
Just saying but the "its not a loop, its a spiral" makes no sense because a spiral has an end point in which a loop doesn't so it should be "its not a spiral, its a loop".
I thought that was the point though? Alan is going through the same loop over and over but by doing so he's getting closer to the end where he can finally leave the dark place, that's why it's a spiral and not a loop.
@LastEsis But that's not what the ending seemingly trying to convey. What you brought up make sense but it's obvious that they're trying to do the "it's not a lake it's a ocean" line again. Thus it's supposed to mean that there's multiple other layers to this loop that He's in... which is just wrong considering what a spiral actually is.
@@aytony4090 How is that not what the line means? In the post-credit scene Alice says that Alan is going to get out of the dark place through ascension bit by bit, that it's going to take a long time but that he's making progress and that he has to go through the loop again, and then Alan says "it's not a loop it's a spiral", it's pretty obvious that that's what he was referring to. It's true that they were mirroring the "it's not a lake it's an ocean" line from the first game but that's because they are both reinterpretations of the nature of the dark place, that doesn't mean that they mean the exact same thing.
HE LOVES IT
He LOVES ALAN
@@nanashi7779 LOVES ANAL
I feel like a lot of people (Joe included) kinda gloss over the less literal parts of the ending and the story in general. By far the biggest reveal in the game is that Scratch isn't some evil doppelganger of Alan but Alan himself. His tendencies to violence, anger and substance abuse (which we hear quite a bit about throughout both games) that The Dark Presence feeds on (as it seems to feed on the worst aspects of people, like self doubt in Saga's case) and manifests it as Scratch. The game ends with Alan finally realizing that ("The hero turns to look inside, is destroyed but what he sees, and is redeemed") which allows him to finally properly work on getting out of The Dark Place. Sure, physically not much have changed for him but in terms of character developement it's a huge leap. "It's not a loop, it's a spiral" at first glance has a negative connotation meaning that if we don't work on our destructive behaviours we're not just looping around but actually spiraling down, but it also means that a spiral can be travelled the other way around and used to get out, which is what Alice means at the end by saying "the only way out is destruction or ascension". I think it's a very hopeful "ending" for Alan and I quite like it.
Now obviously it's also sequel/DLC baity which I'm not a huge fan of and I agree that the Casey part was a bit random. It's like the game really wanted a physical antagonist for the finale which is super odd considering that we don't even fight him. Overall though I think it's a pretty good ending.
I'm glad Joe enjoyed the game even though he didn't really feel the ending. Maybe it will grow on him. I beat the game 3 days ago so I had more time to articulate my thoughts.
I think a decent bit will be elaborated on and expanded in New Game +; contains an "alternative narrative" according to the devs, and we already know it has a new ending, new manuscripts and new videos. It's funny to see that with new game plus you keep your gameplay and upgrade progression, but now also your narrative progression as well. Of course Sam Lake would do that lol
(Spoilers) Honestly I think part of the narrative involving Casey so heavily at the end is a trick Alan is pulling to save Casey from fictional degradation. Throughout base game and ng+, even Alan is worried and confused about his placement in reality and for good reason. There’s heavy implications in the first game that Alan isn’t real and there’s some implications in ng+ that Alan looks so much like Zane and sounds so much like dr darling because darling somehow found his way into the dark place and met Zane. This would be saying Alan is a collaboration between the two as a possible backdoor or window out for the both of them. The difference between all these creators though is while Alan initially thought of Casey as a tool for his plot previous to the first game, he came to understand that the differences between fiction and reality are not so easily defined. If I was told my creations were on some level of existence real and had and felt emotions I’d probably be a bit more wary to throw them at the wall for a solution too. When I first finished the game I had asked myself “was any of that even real?” And I think the answer(like when Alan asked himself if he’d get out) is a solid “yes and no”. Would it have happened in the reality of the fiction? Possibly, anything is possible in a fictional story which the Alan wake universe is but I think it’s not so easy to define that since the first game established rules that the second game breaks. They kinda get away with this because of the clicker 4th dimensional plot device but I think that with this narrative you have to remember “Outside of everything im seeing, Wake has written this to happen and for a reason.” The last scene where wake, saga, and Casey get their happy ending is a way out for all of them that wake had envisioned the whole time. They had to get through the horror story though to earn it. Its a way for wake to in a way save himself and trap the dark presence, have saga play her part as the hero to the end by saving everyone, and essentially bringing Alex Casey to life as a real person. The horror story is over but Casey is still asking saga if it is. I have a feeling if Alan was a bit more careless we wouldn’t have gotten that last question out of Casey. Now the real question is “is Casey outside of the story real” which is again imo “yes and no” it might be confusing but remember that we’re dealing with a fictional world where reality is changed with a magic clicker.
HE LOVES IT
(in his very critical way that's always enjoyable to listen to)
Pretty much spot on for how I feel having just finished the game.
I wonder if he changed his mind after the new ending?
I'm on a very similar boat here with the exception that I'd place the gameplay as "barely serviceable" instead of more than that. Especially towards the latter half of the game, gameplay was truly lacking (zero enemy variety, no special encounter design, entertaining exploration but with very little payoff, etc). I also loved Saga and i hope we see more of her.
As for the ending itself, i pretty much agree with Joe here. To me the whole "Alan is Scratch, Scratch is Alan" thing just seemed so obvious that I really didn't feel shocked or surprised at all and since that's kinda the "big reveal" the whole final third of the game lacked any significant payoff and the ending sequence itself for me was like "so.. we're basically at almost the same point as at the start of the story??" That felt bad to me.
Great game otherwise, enjoyed it a lot.
its a Mid story with the DLC and Control 2 obviously being set up to finish off the story.
Just saying but the "its not a loop, its a spiral" makes no sense because a spiral has an end point in which a loop doesn't so it should be "its not a spiral, its a loop".
I thought that was the point though? Alan is going through the same loop over and over but by doing so he's getting closer to the end where he can finally leave the dark place, that's why it's a spiral and not a loop.
@LastEsis But that's not what the ending seemingly trying to convey. What you brought up make sense but it's obvious that they're trying to do the "it's not a lake it's a ocean" line again. Thus it's supposed to mean that there's multiple other layers to this loop that He's in... which is just wrong considering what a spiral actually is.
@@aytony4090 How is that not what the line means? In the post-credit scene Alice says that Alan is going to get out of the dark place through ascension bit by bit, that it's going to take a long time but that he's making progress and that he has to go through the loop again, and then Alan says "it's not a loop it's a spiral", it's pretty obvious that that's what he was referring to. It's true that they were mirroring the "it's not a lake it's an ocean" line from the first game but that's because they are both reinterpretations of the nature of the dark place, that doesn't mean that they mean the exact same thing.