Rereading Wheel of Time (books 1-3): How does it hold up?
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- I reread The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn by Robert Jordan in prep for Amazon's tv show. I was surprised by how much my opinion on certain aspects have changed over the years! I'd love to hear about what you changed your mind on if you've reread the books - and what things (like Faile) you hate and hope the show changes 😆
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:39 - Characters (Nynaeve)
02:13 - Characters (Mat)
02:53 - Romances
06:12 - Pacing
08:13 - Comparing the first three books
09:12 - Some same annoyances
10:30 - Some questions for you
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The sequence with Matt and Rand traveling from village to village was my favorite part of the first books. The atmosphere was captured perfectly.
It's so good! My opinion just totally changed on it. It was such a good way to make the reader feel how desperate they became.
It also deepened the readers understanding of this living world they are in that is not sitting around twiddling thumbs in anticipation for these lost boys to come save them from a threat they are clueless to. These are people just trying to live. It gave perspective.
Agreed.
And yet they basically left it out of the TV adaption. Which was unfortunate.
@@Bookborn that's why it's such a shame the cut it from the series, it feels like it take's them a few days from Emond's Field to Tar Valon
ONE.MONTH. LATER. Give these fools an Emmy.
As requested, I actually like Faile, and I like her relationship with Perrin. I think a lot of her personality at first is both because of and in reaction to her upbringing. She matures a lot over the course of the books, particularly in book 4, as she and Perrin begin to understand each other and as she begins to understand his background as well. She goes from rebellious teenager to an adult over the course of a few books.
Though Jordan doesn’t write it as well as it could be done, but my head canon adds in the scenes he glosses over.
I really liked her at the very beginning, in book 3, when she was just introduced. I hated her when she manipulated Loial about the ways, and the whole beginning of book 4. I get that this was supposed to be a young romance, and young people in love are annoying, but it was just too much. Later in book 4 she gets somewhat better, once they start to improve their communication thanks to the teachings of Egwane's parents (although these were way too much on the nose and started this annoying "women are always so", "men are always so" that Jordan really lets loose in books 5 and 6.
Faile is physically abusive, manipulative, narcissistic, a hypocrite, and is continently trying to get Perrin to abandon his duties to Rand. Yeah great person.
That said she is still better than Egwene.
@@berlineczka Perrin is overly protecting her like, she may not go anywhere “because she may be in danger”. From that perspective I totally understand her using Loial for example and while her character isnt very likeable by appearance, actually Jordan gives some Saldean background, Saldean women being different to others. For example, Bashere’s wife, also being Saldean, illustrates this in my opinion. I say we can’t forget her Saldean origin since that’s part of her, while also being of high birth. I think it’s great how in the Two Rivers she is Lady Faile and how Perrin doesn’t want the Lord-thing (just like Mart, by the way) but still doing a great job. I think it takes AGES from Faile’s capture to actually freeing her, and while Jordan might want to let us feel Perrin’s sorrow, it might just be TOO long a digression, especially since Faile is NOT one of the very main characters but more sort of a side character. This being said, Tuon would be far more interesting as a side character, I think.
What's interesting with the Lan and Nynaeve is that it feels like it comes out of nowhere, but thinking about it: most of the book is from Rand's POV. When we do get Nynaeve POV there is usually some interaction with Lan. But a lot of their interactions will have been off screen in Eye of the World.
This is a really great point, and the show is doing a great job of addressing this issue so far.
Specific opinions aside, it's so great to hear someone talk about how opinions of pop culture can change over time, and that's OK. Nostalgia has its place, but it's ok to grow and change as a person, too!
Absolutely. It can be sad if things we love feel different now, it's happened to me before. I still love WOT, but I am recognizing more weaknesses haha
One thing I noticed after rereading WOT several times - Jordan wrote every scene that focused on one person from that persond POV with that person's colorings and biases. It changes perception once I noticed that.
I'm a big Faile fan! I recently wrote out a whole essay about this to a friend in Twitter DMs explaining why. I'll copy/paste that here. Spoilers for books 4-11:
The only time where the relationship between Perrin and Faile is actually toxic is the first half of TSR (and maybe TDR though I don't remember that as well). Once Perrin’s family is killed, that stuff shuts down, and Faile and Perrin actually become a strong couple that have trauma bonded. They still have shit to work through but they’re not gonna be total assholes to each other.
Their book 6-8 arc is about learning to overcome miscommunication and cultural differences that are problems in their marriage, which are exacerbated by Berelain. So the fundamental problem here is that Faile is a jealous person-BUT! Faile rarely lets her jealousy show. She keeps a lid on it because she KNOWS it’s not a productive emotion. Unfortunately, Perrin can smell emotions, and keeps smelling her jealousy, and keeps trying to fix it, and she is flustered because she KNOWS she is doing a good job hiding it, so to her Perrin is randomly accusing her of a toxic emotion that she is doing her best to dampen, and she doesn’t want it to be a problem.
Then comes the ways in which he tries to fix it: shouting at Berelain, which is a sign of respect, and talking calmly to Faile, which is how you treat a child in Saldaean culture. This is where Faile’s jealousy turns into anger and frustration because SHE wants that respect from her husband. But she doesn’t bring it up because she knows Perrin doesn’t get Saldaean culture, and just stews silently. Don’t get me wrong, this IS a problem. Not communicating what you want in a relationship, bottling up your emotions, letting them out in frustrated bursts-definitely bad. But not devilish, most everyone’s done it, and Faile is, what, 18? This kinda thing is expected from her.
Book 6 we see Faile’s parents tell him about Saldaean culture and husband-wife relations. Perrin should’ve been overcoming these cultural differences then. Book 8 Perrin meets Elyas and Elyas spills the beans on how Saldaean culture works. Perrin is taken aback, but then he takes Elyas’s advice and boom! Many of their relationship issues are resolved, and they actually kind of become a power couple, with Faile even starting Cha Faile and building a spy network. During captivity she massively expands Cha Faile and Perrin is absolutely shocked in 11 at how much she is about to help him.
So if you ask me, Faile is the most misunderstood character in the series. Yes she starts out quite toxic in book 4-but so does Perrin, where in the Ways he even spanks her. Then it is just a steady progress of them working on their relationship to improve it. It’s very good representation of how constant and consistent working on a relationship can lead to overcoming differences and conflicts, and how that is really worth it when you truly love someone.
Definitely. Only on my first read and I still liked Faile from the start (shocker I know) and I think that's because her and Faile's relationship reminded me of one of my past relationships. You can view that negatively... which it kind of was. We were a mess. But it was a real relationship. And that's what Faile feels to me. A real person with real faults. Same with Perrin. Sure they were toxic, but so was my past relationship. Seeing them grow out of it was strangely vicarious for myself as it reminded me of my younger and dumber self dating someone who was also young and dumb. I can see why that's not very appealing to a lot of people, but I still enjoyed their interactions. Granted, they aren't my favs or anything 😅
Well said. The unreliable narrator strikes again! We mostly interact with Faile through Perrin’s perspective, so we can’t learn to understand her well. It’s like Mat not being as likable or well-understood in the first 2.5 books. It’s not just the dagger that does him in. It’s the fact that we don’t have his perspective. Same goes for Faile. Perrin’s wolf sniffing is a blessing and a curse, and it can stink up our understanding of those around him too.
Well said. I have heard some comments from people hoping Faile does not make it into the show, or gets heavily changed, but I think the show could really explore her character and help the fans better understand not only her, but the problems she faces with Perrin in their relationship.
When it comes to the male and female dynamics in The Wheel of Time I think many people misunderstand. Ofcourse this is a heavily complex world with many threads and directions it goes in. But one strong theme throughout is celebrating the differences between men and women and how eventhough they are completely different, but with unity they are stronger. The women characters are really strong and independent but when you spend time in the male perspective you think that they are whiny and annoying and that's why I think Faille is hated so much. You rarely spend time in her perspective. But the male characters also seem to have this whiny irrational feel from the other perspective. So I feel like this is an exploration of the differences between the sexes and how they learn to interact with each other when times get difficult.
^ This.
I always really loved how the characters just could NOT understand each other, as it seems pretty plainly true to life. Even when we *know* we're never entirely sure.
The way that the men and women think about each other fits VERY closely to my experiences, both observing my aunts and uncles growing up AND speaking to people since. And even being taken into the confidence of women many times, I still have my moments of thinking men and women might as well be aliens to each other.
The fact the boys all think that the other two are great with women also always amuses me.
I can't update this hard enough. It's something that is really difficult to do on screen.
I understand this viewpoint, but honestly the stereotypes that are used really don't translate well to the real world. There really isn't a huge divide of understanding between the sexes. From personal observation, the only reason there are any miscommunications between men and women are because one or both sides begin a communication with fixed preconceptions and are (consciously or subconsciously) intransigent in those beliefs, views, and goals. I suspect the narrative was more accurate a depiction of the world 30-40 years ago, but when a man (or woman) purports not to understand the other these days, it's usually because at least one party is so involved in their own POV that their brain will not process correctly what the other is saying. It is more common in communications between the sexes (at least among those of straight orientation), but it occurs among those of the same sex too.
For me, it really detracted from the narrative because it used such an archaic and, at least from my own experiences, demonstrably false (at least as a universal generality, or even as a reflection of what is the norm) construct to artificially create conflict. I still love the story, and I think the underlying story has huge merit, but there are better ways that could have been expressed than the heavy handed and frequently silly reduction of stereotypes used in the story.
As to individual characters, I actually don't think that Robert Jordan was anywhere near as frustrating in attributing stereotypical gender traits. For example, Rand is literally one of the most emotional and frequently irrational characters in the book, quite nicely balanced with Nynaeve who I think is equally emotional and often irrational. Mat and Birgette have very similar character traits (which is why I assume they got along in the book). Elaida and Niall are also very similar in their character arc, at least in how they are immensely goal driven, very proud of themselves, and also very keen to dismiss reports that disagree with their world view.
I think the short of it is, I think Jordan recognized on some level that the stereotypes he attributed to the genders (and possibly believed were true based on his own world view) didn't really translate on an individual level, which is why his characters tend to display such varied personalities and characteristics which do not break down by gender lines, except on those instances where he was trying to create a distinction by gender lines, where it ended up coming across very heavy handed and artificially constructed.
My favorite parts of the characters in WoT are that they are all flawed in their own ways. I hate that in new media women aren't allowed to be wrong, or show jealousy. The men and women in the books feel like real people and that's why I can connect to them regardless of their gender. As for Fail (misspelled on purpose) on my rereadings of the books I always skim through anything with her except the stuff in the Two Rivers. Everything else with her is pointless and does nothing for the story.
I'm really hoping if the TV series lasts that long, that when Fail is taken, the show let's allow that happen off screen and then we just find out about it when she gets back to Perrin.
@@gnomedeguerre2482 I wouldn't mind seeing it. Just don't let it take 3 seaons to conclude, hah.
I loved Faile when she helped Perrin greave and forced him to take responsibility in the two rivers. The fact that no one comunicates in the books and that Perrin goes by her sent rather than speaking to her causes a lot of unnecessary conflict. And Berilane can die in a fire.
Berilane. Is. also. the. worst. Although, the ending scene with her and her Aes Sedai is pretty great
@@Bookborn Berelain is the Cleopatra of the Wheel of Time... combined with a Mata Hari... a touch of Joan d'Arc... and more than just a touch of Machiavelli.
Her "saving grace" is that there is NOTHING she WON'T do for her people.
As best I remember right now, she attaches herself to Perrin in order to secure RAND'S protection for Mayene... because she feels Perrin is reliable, Rand is already taken AND he's the Dragon Reborn and CLEARLY too dangerous, and Mat is UNreliable... which only leaves Perrin.
She does that, not for herself, but to protect Mayene from Tear and others.
IIRC, when she first starts chasing Perrin, he and Faile aren't quite (yet) a couple.
She also ends up being a key teacher, in matters of politics and such, which becomes necessary to both Perrin and Rand.
It seems as if I remember her also making some very important negotiations for both Rand and Perrin... and gets far worse than she deserves from the Shaido.
She's also the somewhat flawed heroine who helps to balance the "flawless" heroines of Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Egwene.
@@Bookborn Actually, I totally hated Berelain the whole time I first read the series. Remarkably, while reading the whole series for the third time, I’m becoming more and more appreciative of her, I now think she’s a great character - something which I wasn’t mature enough to be able to really grasp. Besides, I didn’t like the endless Perrin-Faile-Berelain-story at all, only now I really took the time to take it in slowly, without having my mind diverted to more exciting plot stuff, now I get to see Berelain really does a great job of organising, firstly for Rand, later for Perrin while Faile is gone. Frankly spoken, parts of the Faile-Perrin-Berelain-story in later books I didn’t really read at all at first, too slow paced and boring. So quite obviously, I didn’t like it right then. This might not be really my fault, since somewhere around books 7 - 10 the pacing is sooooo slow that it can be pretty difficult to , for example, appreciate some sudden new story line of a never heard before character like the great Arab Doman general. Just like you spoke, the structuring of the world is perfect, but, mainly at the first read, the plot is progressing sooo slowly. On a note, I loved the final coming together of Berelain and Galad, by the way. Two characters I didn’t really like at the time, so I was fine with the two of them coming together. Moiraine and Thom, at the contrary, I thought very weird. But perhaps, like your conception of Nynaeve + Lan having changed, Moiraine + Thom might too. In my opinion they fit each other pretty well, both being Cairhienin AND excellent plotters. Although I tend to agree with you about Jordan not doing a great job of describing romances.
Fiele: you can call me Mandarb.
Perin: laughing hysterically
Fiele: what's so funny
Perin: points towards horse, HIS names Mandarb!
Love that scene so much. It never gets old. I like a constant banter. The fact that ALL relationships in the books have it, shows Jordan and his wife must have been that sort of couple. Avienda and Rand and Min and Rand are my favorite couples in the books. Min is awesome, because she gets away with soy much because Rand is so clueless. Avienda, because she isnt searching for a relationship, but finds one and the scenes between them are so cute. As an adult who read them in high school then returned, these two couples stand out. I also like Suiane and her love interest. She goes from top of the world, and he smacks her down to reality and shows her how to be a person again. She needed an asshole like him that wasn't really an asshole.
He would have just shown her the joker meme "You wont get it"
Faile.
The thing with LanNeve is that he feels that way, but is dead set on not getting involved with her, as he is set on dying. She pursues him, and doesn’t take his no’s as an answer.
I always adored the tension between Moiraine and Nynaeve.
They were two of my favourites on my first read, and subsequent reads reinforce it.
I personally *like* that Nynaeve can be a real b*tch. It resonates with some of the women in my life growing up. Tough as nails, hearts of gold, will do anything for you... but they ALWAYS think they know best and will treat you to a rather severe tongue lashing any time they please. The insecurity coupled with the arrogance made her so interesting.
I also like her development as she rediscovers that she's a young woman, not JUST the Wisdom, and how she struggles with that identity crisis (typically with denial :P)
Both women have to deal with people they perceive (usually correctly) as immature, ignorant or out of their depth. They both become horribly frustrated, both are desperate for control and how they deal with or (or don't) always struck me as very "real"
On the romance, I honestly think people judge it too harshly, or against romance fiction, or the FANTASY of what romance is.
Fact is, most people aren't particularly romantic. In any sense of the word. I am, and I like to see people in love to the point I NEVER expect difficulties because to me "love conquers all"
I am VERY MUCH in a minority. Most of the "romance" I see is either just flagrant jealousy/possessiveness, or material virtue signaling. (my mum is extremely unromantic, wanting jewelry etc for some reason, but then being very attached to it, like a cross between Smaug and Mr T, because she IS sentimental)
Lan and Nynaeve makes total sense to me. Nynaeve went for the least available man she could. Somebody to match her strength... and somebody she could take away from Moiraine. Lan found a woman who saw him as a man, not as a king or a symbol. She also went hard after him, which can even be read into culturally, from New Spring (Malkeiri were very big into the woman choosing)
Perrin and Faile is *actually* amazing. The petty jealousy, the constant arguing. I've seen that kind of couple a thousand times and typically they're stronger than the ones that are all "lovey-dovey"
Sure, she's childish... but I honestly see this from women older than me, and I'll be 40 in a few short years. Picking fault with their partner, becoming jealous over nothing, being possessive, making arguments over nothing, but then seeming to *like* things that would trouble me (like when Perrin gets angry with her)
I guess I have a soft spot for "difficult" women though :P
But we also need to remember that the EF4 (sans Nynaeve) are little more than kids.
Of course Rand and Egwene are awkward and besotted. How was YOUR first crush?
Rand and Elayne is also a good trope. Princess falling for a peasant who is really a "prince." She's being rebellious and I can't think of a bigger bad boy than the Dragon Reborn.
Min is SUPPOSED to be a bad romance. She feels forced into it, but she ALSO genuinely feels for the sheepherder with the weight of the world on his shoulders.
Aviendha is probably the best romance of the 3 as it's "hate" that erodes into affection as the two are forced together.
I never had any issues with Faile. Listening to more youtubers recently kind of surprised me at the hate she in fact gets. I feel like she is very important to Perrin's arc personally and is the reason he grows up. Also i find she is the strong woman behind the powerful man trope which i personally enjoyed.
Agree here...I had/have some "issues" with Perrin simping after Faile but not with the character herself.
A lot of the characters get undeserved hate in the fandom, Faile and Gawyn being the most prominent among them. I think it’s a residue of the communities discussing the books as they came out, I’m willing to bet most WoT fans hated Gawyn when Book 4 had just been released (he admittedly makes a pretty bad, although understandable, choice in that book), and the Faile hate probably came from her receiving a lot of chapters that people consider pointless or meandering during the middle section of the series, which would have been really frustrating for fans reading as the books came out. However, most of those characters are much better if you evaluate them apart from the community’s consensus and read the series as a whole as it is now (this was totally not a personal comment due to me really liking Gawyn despite everyone hating him, nope, not at all)
I think she has what is called "The Scrappy do Syndrome" over-the-top precocious and obnoxious behavior that one should not get way with, but somehow does.
She was indeed horrible to Perrin in Caemlyn(?), and it was painful to read about him being tortured by her. Even switching to Berelain then would have been better- he would no longer have to deal with toxic Faile. Instead, maybe Berelain would have finished up with her if Faile came to kill Perrin.
I love Faile! I do, I admit. Yes, "the reveal" came out of nowhere and was ridiculous, but as long as I suspended that, I was plenty happy with them as a couple. Maybe I was wrong.🤷
It's great you're doing this comparison. I read the series during the 90's and 2000's and have began rereading them again. Time has lent a different perspective to many of the storylines. Also the rereading has highlighted how different the show Is from the books. Names only are the same. Very little else
Faile is one of my favourite characters. Udy Kumra's post below covers most of the points I'd make, probably better than I do, but I'll try.
1> She's ride or die. I too started these books in my early 20s, although it was 30 years ago...and especially after Emond's Field, her devotion to the relationship is really appealing to me.
2> She's a plot device for two aspects of WoT: different cultures and how lack of communication leads to trouble. In a way she's the meta character for these two themes we see throughout all the books.
3> I like the Saldaean culture and how it presents in her personality. I'm biased towards strong women characters, and she's a good one.
Having said all that, I can TOTALLY understand the reasons people don't like her. I just don't agree with those reasons or at least don't give them as much strength as I do what I see to be the positives.
Just found your channel. Love your analysis. Better than the others I've seen so far. Or perhaps more aligned with my perceptions.
Wheel of Time is hands down the best epic fantasy series I've ever read. I started the series in the late '90s, so you were probably just a kid. I've not reread the books since The Memory of Light came out. But after I did my initial read in the '90s, I always re-read the entire series from start to finish before reading the newest book, so I feel like I still know most of these characters intimately. Your view of them seem spot on to me.
I have these books packed up in the garage somewhere (along with the audio books). I think you and the Amazon series have encouraged me to find and reread them again.
I love hearing from people who’ve read the series since the beginning. I didn’t find them until right before the last book came out. I think I read the entire series then only had to wait a few weeks for 14.
First off, just found your channel and have watched everything you've put out, looking forward to more.
Due to the popularity of the show, I've decided to do a re-read too. Excited to re-kindle my love for it all, getting entrenched in the details and appreciating the payoffs of little details throughout the story.
Yesss it's actually super fun! I thought it might feel overwhelming because of how long the series is, but once you get started you remember all the great things about them.
@@Bookborn Book 1 done for 2022. Enjoyed it quite a bit more than the first time. I also liked the journey of Mat and Rand better this time. It does a good job making you feel stressed out along with them. Also, knowing about Nynaeve and Lan in the future, I saw a lot more hinting at it this second time around than I had in the past. Increasing the rating by a star based off of the second re-read, hoping the others continue to surprise me more too.
Great video! Your perspective is interesting to me even though I haven't read the series :)
Great recap! I'm re-reading as well, and this was fun to watch
Thanks for watching :)
I read the whole series back in high school (35 years old now!) So my memories were vague and out of order too. I work on the road so I decided to hit up the audiobook read my Michal Kramer just before the series started. I really appreciated the long setups more this time around, and am really enjoying the "reread"
I did a reread last year during lockdown, this was the 2nd time I read the series. I loved the entire reread, there's so much foreshadowing with satisfying pay off, which I feel is something they seem to be doing in the tv series right now as well. I had something similar as you where I still had a vague idea of certain events, but I was lost on when they would happen. I thought Lan's Malkier plotline was going to get going around book 10 and I kept waiting for 4 books for it to actually happen. :D
About Faile, I'm all here for the hate. On my reread I hated there relation even more than the first time; it's like you said, she's just bullying him, nothing but nastiness and then Perrin is just magically in love with her and then she just magically warms up to him and they have a relation. There's literally zero events that even imply that this could be a reasonable outcome. On the question what I like about her and what's a redeeming part of her. Once they're together long enough that you lose the vitriol over how it happened and start seeing them as an established couple, I appreciate how she's adulting while Perrin is being petulant about being a lord. Her competence of running the camp/Two Rivers from the backseat while keeping Perrin on the straight path redeems her slightly for me.
Yeah, I'll be super curious as Fail's storyline continues what I'll think. I remember hating the stuff in the Two Rivers, but maybe she'll be redeemed this time around lol. But yes, I totally agree about the foreshadowing. As this is my first reread, I never had the chance to notice it before. There's SO much!
I just reread the first three books after 10 years going from mid 20s to mid 30s and had the exact same reaction as you.
Enjoying your book verse show difference videos. Keep it up!
Thanks for watching!
This has been my first reread since A Memory of Light. I started reading from when TEotW was first printed. so every time a new book came out I reread every book before the new book. Yes I read EotW 15 times now. I think Min's viewings always glossed over many aspects of the relationship building between many of the couples; Lan/Nyneave off book romance, Perrin/Faille rocky start. This made it more forgiving to me when they actually got together. Moiraine and ?? also was the only relationship that had me scratching my head. This reread for the show I am looking for clues and like you said seem more filled out as you have future knowledge or where their respective journeys are going.
As many others have stated each character has their flaws and this makes them more relatable. I never hated Faille as she gave us insight into the Saldaean culture. Robert Jordan wrote very Matriarchal cultures with strong female characters from the Women's Circle/Wise Ones, to Saldaean Fan Language, to Tar Valon. Women controlled most of the narrative/power in the series but always the greatest works were done by men AND women both in the cultures and with the One Power. Faille complimented who and what Perrin was and made him better and stronger.
i am glad you are enjoying the reread i cant get myself to watch the show. i have reread from the start every few years when i would notice a book coming out and wasnt already reading anything. so ive read the first 3 books four times. from what i have gathered the romances are written from the perspective of soul mates being a completion of the other person, meeting time and time again and they need each other to become there full selves. in my opinion as robert jordan understood and viewed some classic u.s. cultural architypes of young men in rural upbringings being the base for the three boys. i believe that is why faile is written the way she is, it is the classic she pushes him and in doing so makes him feel less in control but free to express everything that is repressed by his generally timid way of getting by with out causing harm. also there is that she has a type of emotional and social intelligence that he draws on greatly later on in the books without her he would never have truly made himself available to lead as carefully/brashly he did in books 9 and on. so i dont think the attraction is about it being good to be coy to a minorly abusive level but i get why she is not your favorite. i am really pretty lukewarm on her as a character though i do like her last interaction with masema.. lol.. kind of dark but hey she is saldaean. love the vids, thanks for making them.
I read Eye of the World in 1991 (and finished the series in 2014). I admire your stamina in attempting a re-read! You've piqued my interest in perhaps giving Eye another read. I just have to wait a couple of weeks until I get my first pair of reading glasses(!). I never worked out how to pronounce Nynaeve either - I think I tended to read Nineveh when I saw the name ;) Thank you for your video!
I'm surprised at how fun the reread has been. I highly recommend it! The slower parts don't seem as slow when you know what will happen; you can kind of enjoy the journey a bit more.
Faile is one of my favourite characters. The loyalty and protectiveness they had for each other. A strong man needs a stronger woman
I have yet to finish my first read through of the wheel of time but I'm super excited not only to finish it, but also to reread it someday! I feel like when you reread big epic fantasy series like WoT, SA, or First Law, you catch so much foreshadowing and you're amazed by how much the authors planned ahead and dropped hints all along the way! I reread SA 3 years after my first read through and I picked up on sooooo much more the second time. I'd honestly say I enjoyed my second read through more than the first! Same goes with movies too! The first time through is always where I think you feel the emotions the strongest, but the second time is filled with all the aha moments and the "how did I not catch that foreshadowing" 😂
SA is for SURE more excellent on a reread. Sure, there are a couple moments that are super epic the first time around, but the foreshadowing and clues are just SO deep that catching them is just as fun. Oathbringer in particular, imo, is better on the reread.
I agree about the romances all seeming to come out of nowhere. I also thought it was too cheesy that every single one of the Emond's Field Five married royalty. It's like RJ wanted them all to have Disney princess endings, even when they have to be shoehorned in, just in time to die.
That said, I actually thought Faile/Perrin was the most understandable. They seemed real to me. I can't count how many couples I've met that are so much like them. The man in the relationship just wants to keep to himself, his wife is the only reason he has any social life outside of work, and if not for her, he'd just be happy as a clam, eating pizza and drinking beer in a filthy shoebox apartment. Perrin is blessed and cursed at the same time to have Faile, and you don't get more real than that.
Ok, maybe I'll see that side more when I reread it. All I can remember is her being angry that he doesn't yell at her and it just annoyed me so much.
I've always loved Nynaeve. I'm the oldest in my family (I have 2 sisters and a brother) and was big brother to them and all of their friends. I'm also a taurus. I don't place much belief in that stuff, but Nynaeve, to me, was also taurus and played a similar role to the Emond's Fielders that I did to my younger siblings.
I just started rereading the series again last week. I started reading it in high school back when it first came out, but I stopped at book 9, because work and life happened. Every time a new book came out my brother and I would reread the series from the start, so this is now my 10th reading of The Eye of the World, albeit after about 20 years of having not read any of it.
Personally, I've loved every reread of the series. The foreshadowing blows me away every time, and I pick up on other things every time as well - I'm constantly in awe of just how much RJ is able to pull into the series, from different cultures and mythologies and history. WOT and the tabletop RPG Mage: The Ascension were the two properties that most amazed me with their breadth of influences growing up.
Oohhh have you made it past book 9 yet? That's going to be so exciting for you to finally finish the series!
First time seeing your videos.. This was really really well done - Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
I reread almost immediately due to the last book coming out. I loved all the foreshadowing crammed into the first book. Currently doing another reread now. I just take everything in stride. One of the surprises was how little screen time Rand gets in The Dragon Reborn!
I love your thoroughness.
My only gripe with this video is Nynaeve is actually pronounced “bad ass” 😝 But for real, don’t stress about pronunciations too much, we all know who you’re talking about and that’s what matters IMO. As always, loved hearing your thoughts!
I reread the first three books before/during the tv series to keep it as fresh as possible in my brain. It really did the show more of a disservice than it would have had I just had a vague recollection of the events. In saying that, I enjoyed the books even more than I did the first time around. Like you, I was able to keep track of the characters better this time. I also enjoyed picking up the foreshadowing of events that occurred in later books. Some characters were stronger than I remembered and others weaker. I remember not liking Mat at all through the first three weeks books, but now I have a lot more sympathy for him and enjoy watching him transform into what he will eventually become.
So happy your reading skills have increased. I’m mid 20s now and hope I can say the same in a decade. This video is perfect for me cos after watching the show last Nov I listened to the first 3 books and finished the dragon reborn about a week ago. I think the TV show fleshed our Lan and Nyaneve really well considering it’s so random in the books but I still found it random in the TV show lol but way better in comparison. As for the falcon I don’t hate her but she does seem so random lol but it makes sense given Perrin is Tavaren that she’d be drawn to him. I like how she wasn’t entirely wrong they had found the horn lol but my favourite thing about her is how she hears dragon and dark hounds and is like NOPE I’m out but can’t because as Moiraine said she’s tied to them now. I think that was realistic. But the relationship is from nowhere although I can relate to teasing boys I like lol
The foreshadowing is so amazing you pick up more every time you reread. I love this series. I was about 30 when I started reading it so loved the first book and as each book came out loved it more until some of the wondergirls chapters and Faile's kidnapping. It just took too long. Perin at the end going to the Seanchan and rescuing he was great but it took way too long.
Yeah, a lot of stuff takes a little too long later in the series. Especially when you compare it with the earlier books, like the Great Hunt, where events happen pretty quick.
@@Bookborn I wonder if this was done intentionally. The earlier books deal with individuals or smaller groups doing things which can be done quickly while the later books deal with armies or very large groups and everything takes longer with more people.
I just started my latest re-read, spurred by my frustration with the Amazon show and the converting of my library from paperback to hardcover. The last time I re-read the series was after the release of the last book. I'm on book 3 right now. The biggest change for me so far has been on my perception of pacing. Eye of the World felt evenly-paced, while Great Hunt started slow this time around, but picked up pretty quickly. I also mis-remembered when certain events happened, so that has helped keep things fresh.
It’s funny how you’d think a reread would make slow parts slower, knowing what happens - instead it sort of makes them easier to enjoy
I love Faile! Easily one of my favorite female characters.
Ok, I def need you to expand on this. WHY?!
She’s passionate and gets things done! Sure she can be a little harsh, but she knows what she wants and doesn’t take no for an answer. I respect that. She helped save the Two Rivers and made it a prosperous nation!
And honestly, the main reason is that I’m a sucker for a jealous woman with a romantic rival in books. 😅 As predictable and drawn out as it is, I love the Faile, Perrin, and Berelain dynamic.
@@Bookborn She makes him stronger, every time he starts being silly she does something to make him think, it seems like she wants him to workout what he is doing wrong. She actually tells him this. Faile was good, because Perrin was my least favourite character for many many books, because he keeps on doubting himself too much
@@Bookborn for me it helps that I share the Saldaean view on arguments and that it is a sign of trust and respect if you don't trust someone or if you are holding something back you don't fight. So when she goads Perrin into an argument she is trying to see if Perrin trusts and respects her. But Perrin is a man of restraint both a virtue and a flaw for Perrin this allows Faile to serve as a catilist for growth in knowing when and how to cut loose. Also being Saldaean she is not afraid to call Perrin on his bullcrap. I also like how she becomes a fish out of water when faced with shadow spawn and forsaken. She also has to learn to understand Perrin an action that helps her grow past her insecurities. I have a criticism for Robert Jordan as while I think the couples are believable and fun and interesting he doesn't give the relationships the time they need to be set up which makes them feel like they come out of nowhere. Faile and Perrin are my favorite couple as they have the most set up of them all and I don't think Faile should be changed.
I read Eye of the World again after reading the whole series. I was surprised how many characters that appeared later in the series were actually in book one. Bayle Doman would be one of those. I think one good thing about Faile was that she was good at negotiating with the royals. That might be a little something in her favor. Great video!
who’s Bayle Doman
nvmmmm
Yes, I forgot Domon comes so frequently in later books! I'll be curious to see if I'll soften on Faile in the coming books. Right now, it's not looking great lol
First time reader here! Up to A Crown of Swords (just started). A couple of my thoughts:
- Nynaeve is definitely my favourite character, I love her passion and motivation for making sure the Emond's Field folk are safe. Even though she can be abrasive, I love the fact that she still thinks of herself as the Wisdom, these characters (despite their destinies) are still villagers and her friends who she helped raise (even if she still snaps at "Matrim Cauthon!"). I don't know her future (no spoilers please!), but excited to see where her journey goes (and the romance with Lan... )
- Like you with the Town Crawl in Eye of the World, I felt it a bit slow, but appreciated the tone and feeling of anxiety that the threat was always right there behind them, and constantly on the verge of catching them.
- Liked Faile initially, but very quickly despise her and Perrin's relationship. I can't deal with relationship conflict where the main conflict arises because the couple cannot communicate like rational adults
Thank you for explaining the repeating cart driver in EotW. I am just doing my second read through these books as well, not having touched them since Memory of Light was released. I didn't catch the cart driver's name, but he gave the boys scarves and that detail was repeated in both chapters in a way that threw me.
I was so confused. And honestly, after looking up the way it's written, I'm still confused. So, I just realize it's a flashback and am good with that lol
@@Bookborn IIRC, it wasn't a flashback with the cart driver who gave them scarves. I think Mat and Rand had gotten delayed, allowing the cart driver to get ahead of them until they caught up to him later on.
I finished re-reading it earlier this year after a 8+ year gap and I agree 100% about reading it in my early 20s and now reading in my early 30s. I hated Nynaeve for the first half of the books but I related a lot more with her now and actually liked her from the start. I also agree with the pacing. I remember how bad the slog was but now I was able to go through it without issue and actually enjoy it somewhat. My biggest joy came from the fact how much I still enjoyed and how it still was able to get me excited for the events and scenes in the book.
Yes 100%! I'm really excited for the later books. I'm sure some will still feel like a slog, but I'm betting some books will be better on the reread.
I’ve reread the whole series multiple (6?,7?) times, and listened to them at least as many times. I love the series, and I feel excited every time I start a new re-listen.
That said… Faille has 2 chapters in Emond’s Field and The two Rivers where she’s acceptable, and 1-2 chapters near the end of the series where I tolerate her.
Otherwise Faile is no good…..
Seafolk women
Shai’do
Gawyn
The battle for The Rose Crown of Andor
Details on dresses
How love and romance sometimes is portrayed.
All of the above are things I like the least.
Still: The Wheel of Times is a fantastic series/voyage with glorious writing and character-arcs that are on a level no one else in modern litterateur comes close to.
A great re read with tons of foreshadowing and multiple supreme moments each book to look forward to reading again.
Welcome back
And may you always find water and shade.🙏
Oh man I forgot about the battle for the Andor Crown. Not looking forward to that. I think I agree on all your dislikes although I'd add a lot of the Whitecloak perspectives. I usually get bored during those lol
Hoping to pick up the series soon1 Love your channel!
I had a similar experience about 20 years ago. I had read the first six or seven books in the 90s, then just stopped due to other reading interests (plus, I wanted to wait until Jordan wrapped it all up before I pressed on). Then, in 2004, while stationed an airbase in Qatar, I saw a copy of Eye of the World in a big box of used paperbacks that guys and gals had left while doing rotations. It was still good...but I could now see some of the flaws and tics that really started to crop up later in the series (braid-tugging, "wool-headed", etc...) I did appreciate some of the characters that were annoying the first time around (such as Nynaeve) and I was struck again at Jordan's vision for a huge, complex world that felt lived in and real. After I finish my current book (Malazan series Book 1, Gardens of the Moon), I'll probably have another go at Eye of the World and The Great Hunt.
As for the Amazon series....I've tried the first two episodes of the TV show and it's been rough going so far. Apparently, Brandon Sanderson and the head show-runner Judkins butted heads over the writing and overall story, and it seems obvious to me that Judkins really didn't appreciate having Brandon as a resource to tap into while trying to bring Jordan's work to the big screen. People want it to be good so badly, they are really glossing over some of the foundational problems with the world-building (big one for me: I don't think they're going to have male and female aspects of the One Power, it's going to stay unified in order to avoid the modern pitfalls of anything related to gender. Huge mistake if I'm right, but I really hope I'm wrong). I like the actors and actresses so far, I think they're doing a fine job with what they've been given, I just feel that the overall story will suffer the further it diverges from the themes Jordan set down for his series thirty years ago.....
I read the series again last year. like you i was surprised by how I received certain books or plot points. i always loved the Great Hunt because it was the book that made me fall in love with the series but on my second reread, I loved it even more. to me it's a perfect Wheel of Time book. it has great pace, secondary characters and compelling villains. the story opens up a lot and everything that is on the page is usually interesting and it culminates in a perfect 3rd act which Jordan has a knack for.
Nyneave had become one of my favorites by the end of the series when I first read it but on my reread I liked her even more. minus that interaction with Mat at the end of the Dragon Reborn. also Faile is the WORST. i didn't like Elayne as much as I did the first time but maybe that's because she is the worst by the end of the series
did you read the whole series in a year. Jeeeze that’s like half an inch a week
@@yay-cat it took more like 5 or 6 months. i had read the series twice before and was listening to the audiobooks this time around so it went much slower than a normal reread.
Love TGH. 9/10 at least. For me.
Great Hunt is my favourite book of the series. It probably appealed to me because of the faster pacing and because Lanfear excited me a bit too much. Also, Perrin and Faile are both in my top 5 favourite characters. As I couple, I absolutely love them.
Went back to my childhood home and picked up all my WoT books after watching the tv-show :) started reading the first book so far!
Exact same journey wrt Nynaeve on re-read. As a parent I fully grok her protectiveness now. Also, I had more sympathy for her lost youth, that is, her talent forcing her into a level of responsibility usually reserved for someone older. It made me her romance with Lan more compelling to me in a "yeah, she deserves something for herself" kind of way.
Absolutely. It also made their age difference come into more context for me, she's been older for so long, she probably doesn't *feel* her age.
I love fale (Falcon) she's a strong woman that's possessive of her man. Nothing wrong with that. Plus she's so loyal and faithful, who could ask for more?
Plus she was absolutely right to follow perrin. She saw how odd their party was and figured it had to do with taverin.shows how clever she is and how much foresight she had. She's almost like a modern day bergitta.
Maybe I’ll feel differently about her when I get more into the series! I love hearing people defend her!
@@Bookborn I hope so, she's a free spirit that chooses her own path. Something special in a book about fate.
@@Bookborn ps I really want to hear your take on books 4-6
Great idea for a video. I finished the series about three years ago and have wondered what I'd think on a re-read. (It's just so long and my TBR is massive!) I think I'd agree that Nynaeve would be much more likeable the second time around because of her full character arc. As for Faile, I liked her and Perrin for a book or so but the relationship was so drawn out over so many books that I tired of the whole plot thread. I'm not sure if that's a character problem or just an editing problem.
P.S. I'm also unsure about pronunciation so I tend to go with the audiobooks and they say "Nigh-Neeve" so that's it.....I guess!
"Nigh-neeve" is how I originally said it, so I'm very happy to go back to it!
And I totally get it. I've been meaning to reread the WOT for years, but the show is what finally pushed me over the edge. The one disadvantage of a series this long is that it's really hard to want to make time for a reread since it's going to take up ALL your time.
I started WoT in my teens and didn’t finish till my 30s. I’ve reread them years ago but don’t feel that who I am at the time determined my feelings on the characters and themes of the story. I have experienced what you talked about rereading other series but the big multi book series like The Darktower books, I aged along with the series release and in a lot of ways who I am was helped formed by all those books I consumed.
I wish my wife liked to read fiction, she’s a clinical research nurse and is often overloaded with academia so her leisure time is filled with other things. My dad introduced me to the series and even got me a signed copy of the first book. Miss him tons but glad he wasn’t around for the TV show. It would’ve broke his heart.
I think original fans of the book series who have been with it while it was being published are probably having the hardest time with the show; I don't think it's what a lot of book readers hoped for.
I totally understand why your wife wouldn't want to read on her off time. During University/Grad School my ability to read for fun was EXTREMELY hampered - I already had to do so much in my daily life.
I am currently in the middle of book 6 and I picked up Eye of the world again just to see how badly the show screwed up. I thought it would be boring since I remember at my first try thinking a lot of what happens was pointless. So less than a year after my first attempt, I was very surprised by how excited I was about all the details and explanations hidden everywhere since the very beginning. Now that I know what to look for, the bool is three times as fun as before.
Literally my same journey. I was expecting it not to be very good on a reread, but in fact, it's BETTER. That's always fun to find out. I've heard some of the slog books are better on a reread too, so I'm excited to get to them.
I had the same reaction to Nynaeve. I was maybe 19 or 20 when I first started reading the series and she just bugged the hell out of me. When I was around 30 I was shocked how much more sense she made. Now that I'm in my mid-40s she's my absolute favorite character, though I now realize as a parent to young adults myself just how much crap Moiraine and Lan have to put up with from all of them as the real adult in the room.
Oh yes, let's be clear, Moiraine and Lan are absolutely the real adults of the series 😂
@@Bookborn Moiraine is also manipulative and secretive. She's also an Aes Sedai, who are INfamous for those traits. Even Moiraine doesn't trust OTHER Aes Sedai (quite rightly), nor does Siuan.
She's also quite ruthless... and often arrogant.
These are not traits designed to inspire trust or affection.
You were spot on about Nynaeve. She is an unlikeable character. I'm not sure how one aspect of her going after the two rivers folks changes your view on her personality cause she only gets worse from one book to another. She is a bully (sometimes physically). She is controlling. She is arrogant beyond belief. She is the person you aren't available for when you see their name show up on your phone. Only time she is tolerable is when she is putting her attitude against the enemy. Other then that she treats her "friends" like dirt half the time.
I think all the romances in the book kinda come off awkwardly. But hey, that is how Jordan see's romance I guess. You are also spot on with the Lan and Nynaeve romance. It kinda comes out of no where.
100%. 4 reads, and Nynaeve is still a bully.
I began the series in 1993 and read all of the books that were out at the time. I continued to re-read the series again before each subsequent book came out and a couple of years ago while on a 2 week holiday I read through the entire series again. I also recently listened to the audiobooks. I am a big fan of this series and I am looking forward to listening to the audiobooks again soon.
It is great to here the opinions of other re-readers of the series and their experiences. As a fast reader many of the parts of the books that I've heard others have had issues with (including the slog which I didn't know existed until seeing other readers reactions) never bothered me as I could quickly get through them. Also, I had always felt that the annoyance readers felt about how the women treated Mat after the Tear rescue was written to reinforce how Matt felt he had been mistreated...because he was and his reaction was correct. Robert Jordan was very good at making the reader feel what the characters were feeling and to also make the reader feel from a different characters point of view concerning the first character when the point of view shifted. For example, your new feelings about Nynaeve and Moraines relationship may change when the point of view changes to Moraine's.
Another great video, thanks.
Ah, I love your point about how Jordan was really good at staying in-character when he writes from a specific character. Sometimes it's even hard to tell as a reader - I just start absorbing the characters feelings!
@@Bookborn I'm watching a book review of The Eye of the World by a couple who were show watchers first (Nerdy Nightly) and they make the same observation about Robert Jordan's writing. This is the first book by Robert that they have read and they have commented several times about his ability to maker the reader feel what the characters are feeling, even if the feelings are not ones that the reader has experience with.
I discovered the series when the 4th or 5th book was released and every time a new book was released I would read the whole series over again.
As for pronunciations, there is a guide in the back of each book, but even still, I feel you about how to pronounce Nynaeve - I got to the point when I was reading that I wouldn’t actually internally pronounce her name when reading, LOL.
I'm guilty in a lot of series of just seeing a string of letters and associating it with a character...but not always pronouncing it in my head 😅
Related, I realized a while back that I've re-read the Lord of the Rings trilogy at least once for every decade of my life, and it has changed and become more enjoyable for different reasons every time. I've read the WoT books at least 3x now (and am currently re-reading again!) as well as GoT 3x, and I get more and more from them every time. Sometimes I think 'man, you could be reading something completely new, why go back?' but there actually is great potential value and insight to be had with re-reads!
Re: WoT - personally the thing that always stuck with me was that for all the commentary about Jordan writing strong female characters (which they were) they were also somewhat infuriating to me, in that they were always angry and sharp with the men, treating them as adversaries or idiots a lot of times. Sometimes merited to be sure, but I felt very tense when one of the main female characters was on the page. I'm really interested in how I'll feel this time reading through, maybe with a bit of a different perspective now.
Nah I think you’re dead on. It’s interesting because all the female characters are strong and have great plots but they also have this weird sexist undercurrent of being super complaining about all the men lol. I think it’s sort of supposed to be “small town” thing but it gets really grating sometimes 😂 I won’t mind if the show leaves that behind
I don't know if I can ever re-read Wheel of Time because the pacing of some of the later books in the series is GLACIAL. My willpower to care about the story was broken after reading Crossroads of Twilight. I could not believe that I read 846 pages only to discover that the story basically didn't progress at all. Thankfully the film adaptation will almost certainly not have this problem.
I found crossroads one of the most painful of the whole series. I just finished it on this re-read and honestly, I think I speed read 3/4 of the book just to get through it.
I've read the series 3 times and never saw the middle books as glacial, with the exception of the whitecloaks. I skip any chapter with exclusively whitecloaks in them on the re-read.
I just reread EotW after over 10 years. I similarly liked Nyneave more and felt the attack happened faster. This time around knowing how things go I was looking for foreshadowing and I was happy it was there. I don’t think the first time around I realized Rand channeled multiple times before the ending. I also noticed that farmer twice, had to Google it, and shake my head at the flashback I never even noticed. I will say I enjoyed the ending more this time. I remember feeling confused by it last time but this time I got it, especially with the cords. I was fine with Nyneave’s and Lan’s relationship. They did spend a month together, mostly off screen, but it is mentioned. Overall I still love the book and I’m about 25% through tGh. So far I’m loving it.
I turned 30 this year and have never read this series, but I want to. I literally have no idea what this series is about, but I know that it's one of those that feels like a must read series being a fan of the genre. I do not mind slower paced books. Might be a bit of an odd question, but could you please help set my expectations for this series? I'm afraid that if I do research on the internet, I'll come across some spoilers which I would like to avoid if possible. BTW I do like the style of videos you put on your channel. You do a great job of conveying your ideas in a very straightforward way, and also in a way that sparks debate/conversation which I really appreciate.
I read the Eye of the World the year it came out. Afterwards, I set it down and didn't even think about WOT until years later when I struggled to find something to read at the bookstore and grabbed book 2. Surprised to have loved it and so I grabbed the Dragon Reborn. After reading everything available at the time, I reread it all. You miss so much the first time around, partially because lots of stuff you miss, you just don't know enough to know the significance when you first encounter it. I have to confess that when rereading, I tend to skip over chapters dominated by Elayne. Traveling with the carnival was difficult to tolerate the first time around. Currently, I'm on my 4th or 5th time around. I also like Faile. She's just one of those girls who hasn't come into her own when you meet her, but she's brave and intelligent, if pretty immature. I've dated my share of them. It's a love/hate thing... you have to admit the friction of a highbrow, worldly girl falling for a guy who's led a simple life until recent events changed all of that. Love how later in the books, Perrin speaks to Royals on a first name basis, in their minds showing them he's more powerful than they, while Faile silently laughs over how he isn't flexing his political muscles, he's just ignorant of the protocols, but how it works in his favor...
I started my WoT journey exactly a year ago, but took an 11-month break after I finished The Great Hunt (without any good reason, lol). Then this last October I got excited to return to the series because of all the hype for the show and I binged books 3, 4 and 5 back-to-back. So yeah, I can't speak on any changing views on reread, though I can support your claim about Nynaeve becoming more likeable as you get older, because I am 19 years old and she annoys me to no end hahah. That said, all the characters have their frustrating sides and the romances are just... horrible, but I have accepted that now and I can enjoy the series for what it is. I do have to say that the TV show made me like the characters a LOT more, so much so that Nynaeve is now actually my favourite character hahah. I can't wait to continue on with both the books and the show, it's so exciting to experience all the hype right now! Loved this video, hope you enjoy the rest of your reread as well :)
There's a guide to pronunciation at the end of the books (or at least the early books, IIRC). If you listen to anyone, listen to Robert Jordan. :) As I remember, Nynaeve is nigh-neev. Oh, and Seanchan is SHAWN-chan!
SHAWN?? Ugh, that's like when I learned how to pronounce Suin's name as SWAN...blew my mind.
All the relationships are either love at first sight or shown in a vision as fated. Never any reasons given why anyone likes anyone else. Except maybe Rand liking Min for not taking him seriously. Of course that takes until book 6.
Yeah, I'm on the fourth book and I've noticed that - I love romance in fantasy so it's been the least enjoyable part of the series so far
@@shesokayiguess I think the falling in love process is always bad to ok, but when a couple is formed the dinamic of the relationship is well done or at least better than the other part.
Faile - an opinion in 3 parts. First as a romance: What??? How?? Not a good relationship. Second as a character: Childish and not very likeable. Third as a feature of plot: *sigh* She's good.
The thing that I like most about Faile is how well her skills compliment Perrin. Ultimately, Perrin is able to be who we know and love because of the role and function Faile plays. I wish the romance were better. I wish she matured much faster. But I really appreciate her role in the story. She has some awesome moments.
You’re spot on about Nyneve. Love her now and hated her before
Remember the interactions with the Wondergirls and Mat at the end (and even earlier, when they ask him to take the letter to Morgase) are a legitimate problem that they will need to resolve in a later book. It's the setup for Nynaeve & Elayne to learn that they need to be more aware of how they deal with people, after they get on a hot streak and have a super-impressive run for the next three books. Up until book 7, they have to hide things from people and deal with lots of threats, and have a lot of success in the face of people doubting them, so they kind of get both a sense of superiority because they've been so successful and also an "us against the world" chip on their shoulders, and then they run into the Sea Folk and the Kin who don't just give them what they want because they show up and ask, and they don't get a quick or easy win. And it turns out they need Mat to get what they want from both groups, but Mat does not want to play, because they treated him like shit in Tear.
Also, I don't get the assertion that not much happened in The Dragon Reborn. It might have been a bit lighter on plot than the other two, but it has a LOT of character development. All three main PoV characters, Mat, Perrin & Egwene go through a LOT of growth, each of them "growing up" in a sense and coming into their own. Mat had previously been someone who had been dragged kicking and screaming into the adventures, only doing so out of necessity. It tDR, he learns to take the initiative, to act on his own, and to pitch in and do the right thing because it needs to be done, not because your life is in danger or an Aes Sedai says so. Mat always wanted to go off and do his own thing, and in this book he is on his own, with no "adult" like Moiraine or Verin telling him what to do, and he still ends up running across half the continent to stop an assassination and then infiltrating the strongest fortress in the world, because his friends are in danger. Perrin, by contrast was always dutiful and obedient, doing what he was told, and willingly going along with whatever the people in charge, especially Moiraine, said he had to do. In "The Dragon Reborn", his arc parallels and complements Mat's, in that he also has to step up and assume more responsibility, but in this case, it is in the nature of challenging Moiraine's authority and thinking for himself and making his own choices, rather than blindly following. Then there is Egwene, who is coping with the PTSD of her Seanchan captivity, and acting out badly, resisting advice or orders, pushing back wherever she thinks she can get away with it against anyone she thinks is trying to control her. She is looking for chances to assert herself, and seeking to control her fate with a readiness to use violence. She eventually comes to a place where she can cope with captivity and losing control, accept the comfort of a friend without perceiving it as condescension, and makes the choice not to respond with violence for its own sake, managing to effect the capture of two enemies without murdering either one. And for Mat & Perrin, a lot of their growth goes unnoticed by their companions, which ties in to why the girls treat him so poorly at the end, and in the next book, why Moiraine takes it for granted that Perrin will do what she wants and she doesn't have to watch him as closely as she does Mat & Rand.
Okay, I know I'm a month and a half late, but here are some of my thoughts.
TL; DR: random ramblings on the series and the first three books, as well as of my eagerness to finally finish reading it.
I started reading WoT twenty years ago. It was my first "real grown-upish book" to read, or so I thought of it back then. That's probably true, although WoT's not a Russian Classic in any way - thank the Light of that. I read the books in my native tongue, and there were so many books. They were a decade old first print hardback copies from the library, each of the originals divvied up to two or more books a piece. Thus for me the first three books were actually "the first six or seven books". That was an intense summer of reading, first the three and then all the rest available translations.
Rereading in English, and being a bit more mature and knowing, has been interesting. Through books 1 and 2 I kept watch for the translation-volume-borders, and was surprised to find how fastpaced the books are. Originally I got really into the serires only at the end of the second translation-volume, ie. the end of The Eye of the World. Somehow twenty years after the first book isn't slowpaced or from-time-to-time-boring at all.
I concur on the points on Nynaeve and Mat, although my knowing something of what they become might colour my opinion, I found them a lot more interesting than as a kid. Go figure, a preteen doesn't really like relationship stuff or a tale of recovery. I'm also very surprised how as a kid I didn't find Perrin as interesting as I find him now. The secne at the blacksmith's in Dragon Reborn is something that's kept with me and come to me often during these past decades, and rereading it was very touching. Then again it is an important scene.
Rereading I've tried to spy w/ my little eye (not of the world)for the reason why most of my acquaintances who know WoT bash it. Noöne would ever offer any explanation on their hating the series, so I wouldn't know for sure, but I've come to a working conclusion: WoT might somehow seem to some a clone of LOTR. That would be an illinformed opinion, but I don't really know, yet, what else it could be.
I fetched my book delivery earlier today. Putting them to their desighnated shelf I realized I just fulfilled one of my only dreams: owning the whole series and getting to finish it. I had read only half of the series b/f I caught up w/ the publishing and life caught up w/ me. This time I get to read it all the way through, Deo volenti, and I'm uncharachteristicly excited about it. WoT might not be the most elegantly written piece of literature, but it still gets me good.
I think the first book has a lot of LOTR parallels but after that I feel like it diverges wildly. So If people only real the first book I could understand. But I think it’s its own thing!
So cool about you reading the translations though - I didn’t know they turned the 14 book series into practically 28 😂
@Bookborn Very much its own thing! I only realized rereading that WoT has to have been my first ever favourite-book-series. Only Gaunt's Ghosts and the Inquisition enneracology have come to be added to the list, but WoT truly was the first.
Got to say. I understand they divided the books not to make the single volumes like tomes of old, but it truly was an inconvenience. No external sign indicated the division, no "Eye of the World pt. 1 of 2" or anything. It took a while for a slow kid to notice every other book beginning in a similar manner and every other book ending in a similar manner - it was very confusing at first. It also made every other opening and every other closing very dysfunctional. Wouldn't recommend to anyone considering such divisions - and luckily more-modern tech's made it unnecessary.
I have reread the series, just last year, and really enjoyed it. I thought it was much better on the reread. What I noticed was all the foretelling that I did not pick up the first time. Also, my reread was using the audio books, which are wonderful.
Yes, SO much foreshadowing! It makes the second read really fun.
On my first re-read, which was last year. My opinion of Elayne completely changed. I really liked her on my first read and then hated her on my re-read. I ended up liking Egwene a lot more on my re-read. On my first read I did really like the Gawyn Egwene romance, but on my re-read I absolutely hated it. She could have done so much better. On my re-read I liked Galad do much more than on my first read. Also I felt the only book that was rough getting through on my re-read was crossroads of twilight. All other "slog" books I ended up enjoying so much more on the re-read.
I'm SO interested to see how my opinion of Elayne changes. I remember her being one of my favs on the first read, but I've found out a lot of people dislike her and I'm wondering if my opinion will drastically change about her as things go on.
I re-read an epic every year. This year I did read Wheel of Time and Stormlight Archive. I found that I forgot enough to make the re-reads needed. Next year I plan to re-read the Mistborn series. There tends to be dead parts of a year where I don't feel like starting anything new and that tends to be a great time for a re-read.
Lan and Nynaeve's relationship was a great idea. She was so strong of will, that she was a perfect match for him. He was married to his duties, but then he meets a woman who was engaged to her responsibilities as wisdom. They were alot alike in this respect.
Yes, and I found myself really finding it sweet when Moiraine accuses Lan of helping Rand (when meeting the Amyriln) because he now cares about what's important to Nynaeve. It works well.
When Faile shows up with the army to save Perrin, I literally cried. Yeah she is kind of a bitch at times, but she comes from a borderland. Hard people. A tradition of women testing their men to make sure they are tough enough. So while yes its frustrating to see her treating Perrin like that sometimes, I think when you meet her parents that really shines light on those relationships.
Ok, I'll have to think about this as I continue reading! Maybe it'll change my mind on her!
I have started a new reread to see if my opinion changes.I started the first read when book 1 came out and loved book 1 through 6, but I decided in the middle of book 10 that I’d wait for Jordan to finish and start over when he did. I read all the way through once Sanderson finished it, but I could not believe how bad the editing was throughout the series. I got really good at skipping the rehashes, which cuts at least 25% of the normal books, and about half of the books in the slog.
The thing that struck me was that Jordan had managed to make all of the characters work at odds to each other in a frustrating but believable way. Once Sanderson takes over, the characterizations seemed to change so that everyone can work together to get to the end more quickly. It just felt like the inherent friction of having characters with different motivations was lost.
My opinion after the first 1 and a half times reading was that this is a great story that is made nearly unreadable at times by the poor editing (lack of editing?) and that the literal death of the author stripped away what would have been a fantastic ending and made it bland.
The enthusiasm of so many people has made me want to re-read and see if my opinion changes. About halfway through book one, and I’m enjoying it so far. Really interested to see if I enjoy the ending more this time.
I didnt initially like nynaeve but I never had an issue with faele. I understand her personality and culture as it is described.
One thing I picked up on that I feel I missed previously was more about an old man noal charin's backstory. A man helping them out in later books.
I also hated Nynaeve and Faile first time through. Haven't changed that on Faile.😏
The romances. Lan I got immediately when I first read the series back in High school in the early 90s. I completely understand all the nuance of why he was so taken with Nynaeve as well. Here is this war man- and completely given over to the prospect his death is waiting. This is a place many men live in. He meets this strong willed young woman who has tracking skills and field craft. Imagine t through Lans eyes. Even if the blight receded and Malkier could be re-built hed need a deeply pragmatic woman with skills like nynaeves to start a life. No doubt when he still had hope as a young man her type was right up his alley. Shes very responsible despite her living in denial about inner changes she needs and her much needed growth. Lan is also extremely decisive and no doubt decided to like her instantly because he saw his vision of a perfect women. Nyn on her end, had been so focused on life in the two rivers and measuring up and proving herself and being wisdom, she had no doubt completely neglected such important things like seeking a mate, Lan comes along and she sees this mountain, powerful, intense man of action, hes clearly very loyal to Moiraine and I believe that was her biggest issue with her, because as we see with Two Rivers people, their critical most important trait is loyalty. Nothing else comes close. They are my favorite and im slowly putting together ideas for some fan fiction where they settle Malkier after the last book.
Faile is an interesting one. Ive come across relationships like this before. You got a gentle giant guy, who is order personified, just stable and steady, who meets a woman who is complete chaos. This is why the attraction and why they work. She stuck around and annoys the hell out of Perrin, but its also the first girl who has ever just stayed with him despite all else. Sure, its a toxic relationship and shes just awful at times. I liked though how Jordan made that characteristic of Saldean culture, so we need to step outside ourselves and remember this culture has bizarre concepts of marriage, dating and life. The Two Rivers and Andor, at least in my eyes was supposed to be most like our north American culture, not the multicultural thing the show gave us but its middle America, small town USA. Going out into the wide world in real life yields experiences that are strange and new.
I like the idea of chaos/order, and maybe that will help me as I reread the books to not hate her so much lol
Haven’t read the books in ages but I remember liking Faille. Perrin is my favorite character and I liked them together though I hated the plot line where they were separated and she was a captive.
I first read these books back when they first came out, and my opinions on it certainly changed. The Great Hunt, for example, wasn't as good of a reading experience since reading the books again. But as far as Nynaeve never really changed much. I've always like her, but I never supported her with Lan.
Also I am doing a slow reread and just finished book 6: Lord of Chaos which was my favourite so far. I totally get what you mean with all my memories of the books almost all have taken place already, I am heading into 7-10 with hardly any recollection except for amazing thing that happens in 9 with Rand, don't want to spoil
Oh man, book 9 - I know EXACTLY the event. Tbh, the highlight of the series.
@@Bookborn i totally agree, made the slump worthwhile... almost haha
I think I’m okay with faile as is. The problem for me personally is that the book treats her personality as a cultural difference instead of abusive. If the show were to present her as abusive (because she is) and allow her to change or Perrin leave her, I would be on board. In the books, she’s awful to Perrin, and Perrin is the one who has to get over it and adapt to her way of doing things. It should be the other way around.
Yeah, it's all bad. I'm hoping that they just...make her less abusive, tbh. They can make a character that's abrasive without being abusive.
Faile is awesome. She's a strong woman that pulls a the strong man out of Perrin. Without her he never becomes a leader or Lord of anything. She is simple. She is a strong woman and expects her man to be stronger than her. She sees that potential in Perrin and is correct, but I'm 100% certain that it would never come out of him without her pushing him.
Did you ever read Adam Roberts' reviews of The Wheel of Time books? He brought up an interesting point about The Eye of the World that I hadn't thought of before. He said that (at least book 1 in particular) it was very derivative of lots of classic fantasy that had come before, but that was kind of the point. He said that we read for exploration and to challenge ourselves, and we re-read for comfort and to unwind. The Eye of the World was so similar to a lot of other books (like Fellowship of the Ring) that it gave its readers all of the comfort of a re-read whilst still technically being something new. That's probably why it helped to captivate so many readers out of the gate.
I have mixed feelings about Robert Jordan's actual writing style, because a lot of it involves poorly worded phrasing, tonnes of run-on sentences with numerous subordinate clauses, mixed metaphors, confused tenses and imprecise descriptions that should have been left on the cutting room floor. I haven't seen the TV series yet (is it good?) but I would be interested to see if they manage to flesh out a lot of that stuff that's a bit awkward to read as an adult.
The TV series is wonderful. IMHO the books were good, but this retelling is great.
It's a hot mess. Wait for Witcher season 2.
The writing in the show is horrendous. Bad dialogue filled with pregnant pauses for dramatic effect. Inconsistencies within their own established rules / lore. Inexplicable character motivations (or lack of character motivations). Forced melodrama that is hard to care about. Rushed / awkwardly place info dumps. Brand new story beats that are nowhere near as good as what they could have adapted from the books. And on and on.
It's wild. I kinda wonder if I'm the only person that likes Faile because I've heard so many book-tubers loath her. She's one of my favorite characters. Her relationship with Perrin has the same problem all of Jordan's relationships do. They all go from 0 to 100 without any real foreshadowing or context to ground the relationship. Once they're in the relationship though, I find Perrin and Faile's relationship to be the most believable. Faile's ride-or-die nature also clicks with me. She very much feels tacked onto book 3 and it's painfully clear she's going to be Perrin's love interest, but I fell in love with her in book 4 because she stood by some of Perrin's dumbest decisions and helped him while doing so on her own terms. I've heard a lot of people complain about her specifically in book 4, but Perrin's entire arc in that book is learning he needs to trust her instead of acting like a single act of martyrdom is going to miraculously make bad people stop acting in their own self-interest. Faile understands this from her own background, something she literally tells Perrin and gives context. He won't listen until it is literally too late and she pulls his paws from the fire because she's his ride-or-die and will *literally* bring an army down onto anyone that fucks with him.
Of all the relationships so far (I'm mostly through book 5) no one irritates me besides Min. I've hit a point where I groan every time I end up in her head, not because she's lusting after someone, but because she never has anything new to say. In general I don't think the romance is done very well at all in WoT but ironically, if any relationship had glimmers of something special to me, it's actually Faile and Perrin's. lol.
On the point of pronunciations I started reading this series in the early nineties and in the back of the editions I owned there were pronunciation guides. They show doesn't seem to follow any of them so I figure pronounce it any way you like. I was also 14 when I started reading it and do I ever see the characters in The Eye of the World differently now I'm in my forties!
Yeah, there are pronunciation guides, and I'm trying to be better about paying attention to them now that I'm on youtube 😅 I usually just say whatever in my head, because before I wasn't saying the names out loud lol!
I've always loved Nynaeve, but I started on book 4, so when I went back to book 1. She was already established as one of my favorites
I’m so curious to why you started at book four!?
@@Bookborn I'm not the person who started on book 4 but since you were curious I thought I would share one such reason. I started on book 6 which was tough because of all the stuff you are assumed to know by then. As to why, I was on a Navy ship out to see and someone (I don't know who) had discarded it. When we pulled back into port I started getting the other books.
I think that I am going to read the prequel book and also the first book or two but I'm not sure if I should jump way ahead of the Amazon Originals Series. Maybe just those first two books and than wait for Season 2.
I read Eye of the World a few years ago but didn't get far into Great Hunt before putting it down. I've been thinking about picking it back up with the show out.
Great Hunt is one of the best ones, imo. So...if you end up not liking that one, I wouldn't continue with the series necessarily 😅
When I 1st read WoT, I only made it to book 9. A few years later and couldn't even get that far. With the Prime series out, I've started rereading the 1st one and so far, so good 😂
When Sanderson took over for the last novels there was still a lot of ground to cover but he was able to tie up a lot of loose ends very satisfyingly. You might give the end of the series a try.
I love the Falcon! She’s a takes no crap exterior who obviously deeply cares for Perrin. She also Is great at forcing Perrin to man up.
I had about 20 years between my first read and a re-read (the re-read was because of the show). Probably what stood out to me the most was how the main characters are all kids at the beginning - they are intentionally childish - for example, Matt is an annoying prankster who constantly makes dumb decisions. So there actually is a ton of character development in the books, to the point that, by the time you get to Lord of Chaos, Matt/Rand/Perrin are pretty much entirely different characters who are sooo much more likeable. I also found Nynaeve to be more relatable (probably for the same reason you did, I'm an adult now and can identify more with her POV). And, I too, appreciated the beginning SO much more, because in that "slow" first one-hundred pages Jordan sets SO much up, that I knew would happen later. Like, little things with Padan Fain and with Thom and with the Tam fever dream - I appreciate them so much more now!
Who u calling a nerd! LOL. Loved the vid.. I had to quit around book 5. Too many descriptions of food from what I remember. Might give it another shot.
I read the series twice and sold my hardback collection 12 years ago. I will probably buy the
DVD collection in a few years.
Even with the pronunciation guides I thought of her as Nin-a-vay for a long time.
And Faile is the worst, that relationship is the worst. If the show can rewrite her, that would be amazing.
I agree on all your points. My last read was when A Memory of Light came out, and even then only the few books before it, not a full restart. I started my reread in anticipation of the show, and found some things I love, some things that grate, but overall it's been a delight.
Favorite part of rereading... Verin.
Verin is the true hero of the books. Her story line, and eventual conclusion, is on of the highlights of the books.
The sequence of Mat and Rand traveling, I caught it was the same guy, but I thought that was more to show that if they had just stayed with him hiding out they would have made it just as quickly as they did with trying to go on their own at a faster pace, due to all the issues they encountered.
*thr is 40 years between my mom & dad; are you saying they dont really love each other?* do they really love me? 🥺 😢
I agree with your revised Nynaevopinion
I had the exact same experience as you - what characters I identified and sympathised with were not the same ones as during my first read a decade earlier.
There is a glossary in the back of the each book telling you how to pronounce things, which I didn’t come across until actually getting to the end of the first book. Ny-neev is correct.