I think Otto's idea for having all the low stars together is a good idea. I think the 1 and 2 stars should have their own list. I feel like the 3 stars for classes should be bundled with their gold counterparts, as theres quite a lot of cases where they are in the range of comparison for use with them.
Here's hoping Medea gets an SSR version, summer or otherwise. If they won't fix her NP then we should at least get a different version. Medusa has enough versions for an FSN Servant. Maybe she would be more popular if FSN had a Caster Medea romance route.
Castoria is really funny, for some reason I thought her np gain up from her second skill was just for the targeted servant, but for some reason they made it party wide. I use Castoria all the time for my pick up support since shes so busted, especially with Reines providing overcharge. She also provides an extra layer of protection with her arts up 50% also having an Invul for no reason.
New fgo player. Was heavily debating of getting Merlin cuz I like him, so I saw the 2023 caster tier list. Literally just got him 5 minutes ago, to just after get this video in my recommendation lol. Great tier lists. Very understandable.
At least you like the character, because he sure isn't good. Only good for CQs/bosses, and there you can just use supports and free full team revive to skip any challenge.
@@Aggerr no he isn't he legit doesn't work for raids without plug since oberon makes him miss skills. For farming 3t he always sucked but now there are so many better options that its sad. For CQs he is still good, but you can skip that with sups and revives. I have him, and really hope he gets some good buffs and removal of the oberon downside.
👍My boy Otto swinging for Illya! Love Illya as a character and the one who introduced me to the Fate series.❤ Even with other issues present, my only real complaint with Illya is her debuff on the NP starts with the Atk down, then the Def down. So in order to clear the Atk down from her, i either have to use a specific CC that clears Atk debuffs, or use 2 any debuff-clear CC’s to clear it. Honestly though, it’s negligible. Just a pet-peeve of mine with heavy experience of my hyper Illya.
Making a 1-2 stars only tier list is definitely an amazing idea from Otto, and it will help make the tier lists shorter considering that this one is 8 hours lmao
Another thing is that while she can't reuse her battery, Sanzang can actually farm 1/1/1 nodes with double Koyan, Oberon and Cranking, like Illya. The order of skills is Wave 1 - Sanzang Skill 2, Koyan 1 Skill 1 and 3, Koyan 2 Skill 3, Sanzang NP Wave 2 - Koyan 2 Skill 1, Sanzang Skill 2, Switch Oberon in, Oberon Skill 2, Sanzang NP Wave 3 - Sanzang Skill 1, Oberon Skill 3, Sanzang NP The average neutral damage for a level 90 NP2 Sanzang in this setup, using Decisive as MC, is 130641/152414/507271 As a comparison, NP2 Illya with double Koyan, Oberon, Cranking deals 112814/156094/324588
yeah lol. idk what plushie was on about while talking about looping coz they both loop 3 times with exact same setup just different skill order. just because u can't use her charge twice doesn't mean she can't loop the same as illya lmao.
I watched the vod on twitch and just had to comment here. The whole discussion about Ilya and sanzang is just pure gold. Some people may don't like otto and Plushie being there but seriously... these kind of discussions just make my day. xD
"Wouldnt It be funny to roll a multi while watching and get Merlín?" I just got Merlin while watching with a single multi. Oh my God. The ritual works.
Otto's talk about the "Win Conditions" towards the end of the Ilya debate was really insightful imo. I'm an NA Only player, and I like a lot of that stuff. The dispels and ignore defenses and cleanses and all that. Sometimes you hear the JP Players (not necessarily our other hosts) talking about how the game is gonna develop and it sounds like none of that stuff is gonna be useful anymore. Where to hear Otto tell it, even in the most current "meta" sometimes a powerful damage dealer can be stymied by lacking the appropriate utility for this encounter. I'm gonna be honest, as it developed I wasn't entirely clear on how this all related back to Ilya anymore, but it was still cool to hear a different take on just, you know, what's even valuable in a servant. I thin probably what's become most clear listening to the three of you is how many different ways there are to play the game. Like the talk about Lady Crane, and how each of you use her but you all use her for different things. I'm gonna have to experiment a bit more with her myself after this.
Imo this is best tier list by far. The discussions were on point and the arguments made sense! My alternative suggestion to splitting the low rarities would be to ranking the permanent 1-3 stars and welfares seperately cause everyone gets them. That way the discussion in class tier lists would be around the limiteds and story locks. I personally believe you should always roll for your faves than gameplay, but the discussion could be a cool reference guide for people to know what they're rolling for
One thing not mentioned with Avicebron is that his 3rd skill becomes much worse if you grail him since it's harder for him to die now. also 👍 Otto section
Heh, just realised Aesc's skill 3 is Salome's party big np charge done right. Unlike Salome, you can actually control how soon Aesc's skill 3 charges the entire team with the right Servants and Mystic Codes.
👍 I love the Illya brainrot, but the problem with Illya's kit is that NP causing her to ramp down. On T1, the Start column, she deals more damage, but then starts falling off because of those ATK Downs she has no reliable way of curing without making a setup specifically to do so (Face Cards with CCs, backline Castoria setup to use her NP). And her S3 doesn't do enough to fix her debuffs, as the chance of the Immune landing is RNG and it only works for 1 time. And the fact that she can 3T doesn't matter. When do you ever need to loop with a Single Target Servant? And when is it so important that you'd use Illya over Kintoki, who does what she does while being a Berserker and not having any of the BS that causes her to fall off? You wanna fix her? Start with that S3. Make the Guts and Immune guaranteed effects, which the latter working 3 times, and give it some other RNG effects since that's her gimmick apparently before Rin Faces stole it. S1 isn't desperate for a buff, but either make the Buster buff 3 Turns so she can stack it, or just give it NP Damage on top of the Buster buff so she can hit like a truck on T2 and T3.
👍 I'm glad to see that I'm not the only on who gets passionate about the caster list. Some of that banter between Plushie and Otto was really fun. Only strong opinion I have is CasGil. I haven't used him myself but on paper he doesn't feel like EX. He's definitely stacked enough for an A+ but I don't see him really bringing anything unique or special enough for higher than that.
👍bro this is hilarious also thank you so much for making these I've been playing for about 2 years and these tier lists really help with deciding what to raise next
@@xenoemblem7 Don't get me wrong i love using Quick servants, i just feel & i'm not the only one who think they are lacking compared to the other card types. They really need to buff their survivability in some way so they can be used more viably in challenge quests or harder content.
@@xenoemblem7Buster is replete with star bombs, Arts has decent options for stargen, and everyone has access to star gen/bomb CEs. Crit stars are barely an advantage for Quick at all now, and Buster tends to make better use of crits.
The Illya debate lmao. The one thing I really like about her is her survival tbh. Even tho the 3rd skill is RNG she carried me through so many boss battles with using Merlin + Tamamo spam
Aesc is by far my favorite dps Caster servant for farming. Not only farming is consistent for her being a Buster servant but also because of Atlas mystic code she can do 3 turns without the need of a third support.
I am a hard asec supporter she could have been the best support/dps in the game, but they put a built in nerf on her so she wouldn't be game breaking with her third skill, but also I've run damage calcs and on neutral farming she would out damage kuku if she had no starting restrictions on her skill 3 even as a caster.
Medea should be higher. All the other low rarity casters are AOE, so she can still compete despite her gimped modifiers. Her attack stat isn't just the highest among the 3* casters, it's over 500 more (even after considering caster modifier), which kind of makes up for her lack of self buffs as long as you have enough supports. When fighting a single assassin enemy, I honestly think she might still be the best option among low rarities. She can spam her np very easily, and since low rarity casters probably won't break with only np, she is probably the most consistent, since she can practically guarantee back to back nps to break a bar in 2 turns (or 1t with good rng), and her refund not being entirely dependent on her face cards lets you use castoria face cards to also get her np. Other low rarity casters would have to rely on their own cards, which is less consistent and doesn't let you go for support nps.
I was waiting for this caster tier list. I'm very happy for Tonelico/Morgan potential, right now playing through lb6 and next year for np5 Tonelico/Morgan.
My favorite thing about tonelico is she has probably the most broken kit ever that they had to hold her third skill back so she wouldn't break the game. Also she can do kuku levels of damage as a caster so imagine if she wasn't one.
@@treybrady9134 Her skills does alot and her np as well. Her third skill may or may not activate on the first turn and it's on cooldown of 5 then go 10 but it's not a problem at all. More np level more damage against evil alignments, its really good. If she ever gets a buff it would be her third skill, who knows her np might be the one to get a buff that reduce all her skills cooldown.
Eh, I have a lot more disagreements with this one. Cu can loop from 0 and is way easier to get up on NP levels (scarce banners aside) than his SR/SSR competition. Tonelico is awkward and requires a lot from team members to work for farming. Merlin is not a Buster support. He is a support who happens to havd better synergy with Buster by virtue of his skill and Arts by virtue of his deck. Skadi's use case outside of 3-turn lopping is rare; Merlin's is not.
Missed the stream will watch the whole vod. Hopefully i can catch the Berserker tier list live, thats the one I'm most exicted for. Edit: Ilya and Sanzang 👍
ngl Asclepius has been one of those surprisingly good units for me. Thanks to his low cost due to being a 3*, I love slapping him on the backline as an emergency help out. I love using him a lot 👍
The funniest thing about these lists is that they're true, but don't take the abnormal into account. Like for instance, I have np 1 Sanzang, but because I tried to get np 3 Miyu, I have an np 5 Illya. She still feels very rough to use, but good lord that np hits like a freight train. Great list as always, can't wait for Sunday, when I will be in chat coping for Kerry next week!!
👍otto goated, definitely gonna hear Episode 27 now also want to add that sheba is indeed A, yui isnt account changing but makes quick/buster mix buffs and rainbow buffs a lot better (i myself have been wanting a EX tier quick/arts support for a while) and i would like a 1-2 or 1-3 stars tier list next year Great content as always, will watch the entire thing everytime and maybe a 2nd time
Another idea to build on Otto's 'low-star tier list' idea; perhaps the low-star tier list could be 'permanent F2P'-oriented, only including 1*, 2*, and permanent 3* units. The class tier lists would then include *all* 3* units (speed through the permanent 3* units since you covered them, and have them be points of reference for other servants) and all gold units.
I would argue against the fact that Tonelico's Charisma given so many buffs being stupid...It actually good if you get buff removal (not the all buffs removed at once) and you don't lose everything because they are spread out into many buffs.
Honestly, I would love to see Skadi get either a heal(1k per turn 3 turns) on her Skill 1 or a targetable evade(1 time, 3 turns) or the like. She does need something for the sake of sustainability.
As someone who has both np1 Sanzo and Illya i don't use either honestly, even against zerks in 90++ I'd just bring someone else. I think if they ever fixed Illya's 3rd skill or did something with Sanzo's first skill I'd consider it. Although as far as Merlin is concerned I used to do a weird comp with regular Abby with Tamamo and Merlin that kind of worked for CQs as funny as it sounds. Loved the nearly 20 minute Illya rant and I hope we get another hot take for the last few classes. 👍
I think adding an S tier would solve a lot of issues with servant placements. Theres a lot of top tier dps servants that make perfect sense in an S tier. Especially when theyre too strong for A tier, but arent metadefining to warrant the Ex rating.
7:48:00 Idk how you can say they were never going to add Olga because she was still important in the story when Castoria was released a year before LB6 lmao
Paracelsus can be a better loop support than Xu Fu for cases where an extra 20% NP Gain is better than a 30% charge. Plus his own NP, which he can get with only Mana Loading + his own self battery, can be used to overcharge the looper one time. I don't understand how Edison is A+. He stinks as both a DPS and a looper, and while he does have some neat Support abilities, I don't see how they can be enough to qualify him for A+. Maybe I just don't do stall comps enough. And what do you mean you can't get 3 Nitocris NPs back to back? Wave 1: Kscope. Wave 2: Self-battery. Wave 3: 2x 50% chargers. Change Kscope to a 30-50% CE if you swap in a 3rd 50% charger. And, Big Brain/Meme 6CE farming comp against 3 Bronze waves: Wave 1: Self-battery. Wave 2: 2x KoyanLight Batteries. Wave 3: Atlas Cooldown reduction + Battery.
7:46:45 The more distasteful thing about Tonelico is actually that they had the hubris to give us a Morgan version that only has one real ascension art. Hoping one day she gets a costume with a proper Final art for her.
Otto had some great points in this one when it came to Illya.👍 Skadi still needs help getting to her NP which is why I wish she would get charge from her own battery no matter who you used it on or make it like Tez’s battery skill
Okey so, I used to have a JP account just to try out some servants, and I remember Waver was so powerful in longer fights as a support for both mochizuki and Summer erice. Like, he was going reaaaaaally hard xD I also have an NP1 da Vinci and I do think she's very good for multi core teams as she has everything you want
5:21:33 She's not a universal support though. Buster can't use her at all because of how buster functions. You need a combo of Koyans and Oberons to loop with all buster units. Even 130% chargers like Melu requires it. For cq, losing a Koyan's human/man niche would tank damage by a lot. Even quick is not a fit for her since they'd be down a large of amount of charge from removing a Skadi, most quick already struggle to loop 3 caster waves as is. Even most arts servants wouldn't be bringing her in 90++ because that's a lot of arts up, charge and np gain to lose. If cq is all it took to make a servant ex, then a lot of characters should move up several spots, especially when you keep reiterating that they only compete with their rarity. Heck, most people would bring stall to cq to begin with since min turn runs are for whales. She's basically a pretty niche use case. You also forgot to factor that she's a limited "collab" servant. Who knows when she'll ever get a rerun, if ever.
I'm not gonna lie, the bias towards Miyu is so insane I could never agree that she's good She can be used decently but like, the only places she's ever used in are like fights where any other support can take her place and just do better it's not like an Andersen case where her utility is that good or brings value to justify it, all you're really doing is stalling until she can reach her high point and stat stick your way into out sustain and beat the opponent which is just Art servants doing Art things but I feel like there wasn't a good enough explanation to convince her high placement Where exactly does she perform well that people remember her? And despite being NP1 for the criteria I honestly think even at NP5 she's still a meme servant that's just bad as a pure servant Would you really set up an entire team just for Miyu because that's what I feel when using her, I feel like the entire party has to commit into allowing her to set up her gimmick or her purpose of being in the team just doesn't function and Plushie even said himself there are some people who think Merlin out of all people isn't fast enough to setup his NP buff stacking, why is Miyu so high I could never understand but that's just my opinion it's not like she gives anything other than attack buffs so spamming the same buff type isn't even that much of a big deal unless you're black grail with Oberon or something so like Otto said, despite the difficulty for actually setting her up, the return investment isn't that high, the hell are you gonna do if you get debuffed more than once? The setup instantly falls apart because her teammates are the ones who are gonna be affected by the lost heavily as much as any other team but Miyu can't provide anything else. I was honestly shocked when you said her NP scales better than Reines NP because she realistically doesn't even need copies for everyone to admit she's a top tier support and function properly, while everyone needs to emphasize Miyu's so called "potential" at Np5. Tho even then Reines's NP actually does a lot for the team. And also really talking about NP5 Miyu to compare with Np1 5 stars supports was so random for me because what was the point of bringing it up, can I just bring Kriemhild to EX tier because technically she can kill almost every boss within her anti trait and is stronger than NP1 Kintoki, Vlad, Draco, Berserker Castoria? With the comparison with Lady Avalon, I think the comparison shouldn't just be a 1v1 but more like, Lady Avalon goes extremely well for almost every arts support you could possibly synergize with, while with Miyu, it's really just the NP stacking that's benefiting the team in a universal sense and like I said before, you usually pair her with servants(Like Voyager, another Miyu, any team Np charge support really) who can help her setup not because she has the ability to achieve it herself until after 4 turns into battle or something which is retarded at this point and I think her being a 4 star actually hurts her more than anything because her high party cost isn't that worth it I'm gonna be real If there was a counter argument to this, I think I would've been using her myself. Literally when it comes to dps, Use case is like the number 1 factor while there was like little to none to be said about Miyu other than "She heals the team really good" I honestly laughed when the chat says she was useful when they say that she was used in their Castoria Invincible team when that's not really a real achievement for Miyu herself. I think if you need to defend a character for the entire showcase of her valuation, the criteria shouldn't have been Np1 because the consistency just broke at that point for me. Meanwhile Asclepius had to keep being brought up because he's a story lock Which probably doesn't even matter cuz at the end of the day it's just a video for fun and entertainment I laughed so hard at second time when Plushie said Ryou trying to solo with Miyu died against an Assassin boss and said "He should've used Habetrot" I can't believe soloing was brought up because to me it felt like bringing up WIlliam Tell's anti evade damage as an actual argument everyone knew Plushie was dying inside and gave up
Sanzang can Buster Loop with a 50% CE. She also doubles up her 20% attack up on turns 1 and 2. Using her own battery on turn 3 allows Oberon to double the 20% NP Damage up on it. 1st turn: 50% CE + Koyan A 50% battery 2nd turn: Koyan B 50% Battery + Oberon 50% Battery 3rd turn: Oberon 20% Battery + Sanzang 80% Battery.
I terms of Otto and Plushie's "bring a defense support too" arguement for why its fine that Skadi lacks defense, I feel like thats glossing over party cost, managing whos on the front line when, etc. (Example below) Take Sima YI, since she was suggested as the answer to Skadi lacking defense in her kit. So you can borrow a friend's copy (which cant always be reliable for events in terms of CE amd such), or that means having to pull 2 limited SSRs which arent on rate up often. Then sink double the resources to level up their skills. Then using them will take 32 team cost as opposed to 16 and take up the entire frontline along with one dps. I feel like while normally valuing a servant based on synergy with a support is fine, this feels like valuing a servant based on their ability to support a dps well as long as you also use a different support along with that first support because the first support isn't good on its own.
watched just to see what yall thought of Aesc's kit and found out some people really are salty over her being anniversary... she has one ascension in a swimsuit and nothing else close to summer related... like at best we could have gotten one more Aesc ascension but there really isnt any criteria for anniversary so making them usable in the event story seems like a real silly reason to be upset especially when its just your headcanon. things im pretty sure are planned out far in advance really crying over nothing mate.
The Cu Caster thing is an Odin lore. Odin sacrificed himself on the Yggdrasil tree to obtain the runes. I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run. No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn, downwards I peered; I took up the runes, screaming I took them, then I fell back from there.
Both Skadi are Ex+, let's fucking go. Also looking back at last year, why wasn't Santa Martha ex back then? Didn't you use her that much or were there more cqs that made her relevant? On the topic of separating the tier lists, I am not against throwing all the bronze servants into one big pot. They are mostly there to use their skills and immediately die afterwards. With that reasoning, their class doesn't really matter. Edit: oh yeah, Otto was technically the first guy to alter the tier list by using the birthday card. So taking bribes is fine in my book lol.
what Skadi really needs is a self battery per turn like rider Da Vinci or a big np gain up... also it's weird for Myst to ask of Quick to play slow, because you know... it's quick
Separating low stars into their own tier list sounds like a good idea, although the number is pretty bloated since you're taking from all classes. Someone suggested leaving out story locked 3 stars, which I agree with, I'm not sure about welfares though since the standard varies so greatly from okay or decent(the majority if I'm not mistaken) to stupid good without being crazy like Santa Martha.
Before this list I never thought I'd see Skadi in EX+, but that's probably the placement I agree the most here (other than the obvious ones). Skadi's kinda underrated nowadays, but whenever I use her she's still so freakin awesome, and the numbers prove that. She's still good for farming, but for CQ she's definitely better than Summer Skadi, so they should be on the same EX+ level.
I think Miyu could really use a double buff. I think its really silly how Xu Fu is better than her in a lot of situations just due to her buffing the entire party with her kit (minus the NP). Miyu has the higher cost, with the only thing keeping her up being the nice support NP. Its funny too because Xu Fu's second skill is just Miyu's first skill but target able.
I love how every list seems to just get longer lol, glad you're doing better Myst
These videos just keep getting better 😂
Has science gone too far lol
I think at this point just call it magecraft
I just got to the part lol 👍
@@joebyne6061 I think we're breaking into sorcery territory now bruh 💀
Somebody on the youTube mentioned before; if you max Cu Caster's 2nd append, you can not just farm with black grail but with any mystic code as well!
I’ve come to check on the placement of my 16 wives
sup goatman!
Insane
As long as Castoria is still in the "best in the game" tier then all is good.
Its just showing that castoria is too broken fgo after castoria is too easy
I'm saying this in bad way tho
@@mbagas1835i just dont use her unless i need to.
castoria was a mistake, it should be banned from story and cqs
@@sebastianchavez1225 My man spitting facts
I think Otto's idea for having all the low stars together is a good idea.
I think the 1 and 2 stars should have their own list. I feel like the 3 stars for classes should be bundled with their gold counterparts, as theres quite a lot of cases where they are in the range of comparison for use with them.
You mean like how literally Honako Green makes his lists
what does TA stand for?
Gil went from B+ to EX real quick now it's time for kid Gil's redemption arc
Soon when they give a rank up to his Charisma and Golden rule.
i think they're saving his buff for either Hollow Ataraxia anniversary next year or the new Prillya anime/3rei manga finale
I thought plushie brating the "TA brainrot" allegations with Martha was funny but then the Illya one happened. Gold, absolute gold 👌
I love the little chibi animations on the bottom right representing Otto and Plushie! Thank you guys for putting in the time and work in making these.
I've been up all night summoning for exams and "Also did anyone mention Yui synergy?" fucking killed me. Geronimo defense of the century right there
Here's hoping Medea gets an SSR version, summer or otherwise. If they won't fix her NP then we should at least get a different version.
Medusa has enough versions for an FSN Servant.
Maybe she would be more popular if FSN had a Caster Medea romance route.
that change in background lighting 😂 8 hrs. is brutal
The day just goes by 😂
This stream in my timezone went from 2 PM to 10 PM.
@@MystFGO If you do it at winter, you could start at night, go through the entire day and end at night.
Basically, just a day job lol
Castoria is really funny, for some reason I thought her np gain up from her second skill was just for the targeted servant, but for some reason they made it party wide. I use Castoria all the time for my pick up support since shes so busted, especially with Reines providing overcharge. She also provides an extra layer of protection with her arts up 50% also having an Invul for no reason.
New fgo player. Was heavily debating of getting Merlin cuz I like him, so I saw the 2023 caster tier list. Literally just got him 5 minutes ago, to just after get this video in my recommendation lol. Great tier lists. Very understandable.
I got np5 merlin, good luck using him, he's a fun lad to put in stall and damage comps
The tierlist is JP so it ahead in NA most of other servant in the list already got buff, Merlin Castoria always fun to use in stall setup.
At least you like the character, because he sure isn't good.
Only good for CQs/bosses, and there you can just use supports and free full team revive to skip any challenge.
@@GS_CCC He's still really good, just got power crept. Stop being cringe
@@Aggerr no he isn't he legit doesn't work for raids without plug since oberon makes him miss skills.
For farming 3t he always sucked but now there are so many better options that its sad.
For CQs he is still good, but you can skip that with sups and revives.
I have him, and really hope he gets some good buffs and removal of the oberon downside.
👍My boy Otto swinging for Illya! Love Illya as a character and the one who introduced me to the Fate series.❤
Even with other issues present, my only real complaint with Illya is her debuff on the NP starts with the Atk down, then the Def down. So in order to clear the Atk down from her, i either have to use a specific CC that clears Atk debuffs, or use 2 any debuff-clear CC’s to clear it. Honestly though, it’s negligible. Just a pet-peeve of mine with heavy experience of my hyper Illya.
Likewise. Well, not Illya technically, but someone from her show. You can guess who.
@@espurrseyes42could I hope to guess it is calm mapo tofu chef Kirei?
@@Akario3
Kuro
Making a 1-2 stars only tier list is definitely an amazing idea from Otto, and it will help make the tier lists shorter considering that this one is 8 hours lmao
that otto meltdown on illya is pure gold LMAO. thanks for the tier list once again, good sirs o7
The old man yells at cloud moment was my favorite.
Wowie. You guys are troopers. I will grind this out over the next couple days.
Another thing is that while she can't reuse her battery, Sanzang can actually farm 1/1/1 nodes with double Koyan, Oberon and Cranking, like Illya. The order of skills is
Wave 1 - Sanzang Skill 2, Koyan 1 Skill 1 and 3, Koyan 2 Skill 3, Sanzang NP
Wave 2 - Koyan 2 Skill 1, Sanzang Skill 2, Switch Oberon in, Oberon Skill 2, Sanzang NP
Wave 3 - Sanzang Skill 1, Oberon Skill 3, Sanzang NP
The average neutral damage for a level 90 NP2 Sanzang in this setup, using Decisive as MC, is 130641/152414/507271
As a comparison, NP2 Illya with double Koyan, Oberon, Cranking deals 112814/156094/324588
Thanks for the numbers, as someone with np2 sanzang that’s nice to know!
yeah lol. idk what plushie was on about while talking about looping coz they both loop 3 times with exact same setup just different skill order. just because u can't use her charge twice doesn't mean she can't loop the same as illya lmao.
I watched the vod on twitch and just had to comment here. The whole discussion about Ilya and sanzang is just pure gold. Some people may don't like otto and Plushie being there but seriously... these kind of discussions just make my day. xD
"Wouldnt It be funny to roll a multi while watching and get Merlín?"
I just got Merlin while watching with a single multi.
Oh my God.
The ritual works.
CasGil EX, Castoria still reigns supreme. Myst bascially advocating for a charisma rank up for CasGil. I am happy.
Otto's talk about the "Win Conditions" towards the end of the Ilya debate was really insightful imo.
I'm an NA Only player, and I like a lot of that stuff. The dispels and ignore defenses and cleanses and all that. Sometimes you hear the JP Players (not necessarily our other hosts) talking about how the game is gonna develop and it sounds like none of that stuff is gonna be useful anymore. Where to hear Otto tell it, even in the most current "meta" sometimes a powerful damage dealer can be stymied by lacking the appropriate utility for this encounter.
I'm gonna be honest, as it developed I wasn't entirely clear on how this all related back to Ilya anymore, but it was still cool to hear a different take on just, you know, what's even valuable in a servant.
I thin probably what's become most clear listening to the three of you is how many different ways there are to play the game. Like the talk about Lady Crane, and how each of you use her but you all use her for different things. I'm gonna have to experiment a bit more with her myself after this.
She was my first SSR. She became my boss killer. She murdered pillars. So worth it. yes.
It was awesome to watch all of this live, thank you for the hard work Myst, Plushie and Otto!
Thank you for doing this tier list. 8 freakin hours! You are a beast my dude
Imo this is best tier list by far. The discussions were on point and the arguments made sense!
My alternative suggestion to splitting the low rarities would be to ranking the permanent 1-3 stars and welfares seperately cause everyone gets them. That way the discussion in class tier lists would be around the limiteds and story locks. I personally believe you should always roll for your faves than gameplay, but the discussion could be a cool reference guide for people to know what they're rolling for
We'll prob do the lists like this until the end but if we do these again next year we might mix the formula up a little bit yeah.
One thing not mentioned with Avicebron is that his 3rd skill becomes much worse if you grail him since it's harder for him to die now. also 👍 Otto section
Heh, just realised Aesc's skill 3 is Salome's party big np charge done right. Unlike Salome, you can actually control how soon Aesc's skill 3 charges the entire team with the right Servants and Mystic Codes.
Pretty much
The Illya argument was the best one yet
👍
I love the Illya brainrot, but the problem with Illya's kit is that NP causing her to ramp down. On T1, the Start column, she deals more damage, but then starts falling off because of those ATK Downs she has no reliable way of curing without making a setup specifically to do so (Face Cards with CCs, backline Castoria setup to use her NP). And her S3 doesn't do enough to fix her debuffs, as the chance of the Immune landing is RNG and it only works for 1 time. And the fact that she can 3T doesn't matter. When do you ever need to loop with a Single Target Servant? And when is it so important that you'd use Illya over Kintoki, who does what she does while being a Berserker and not having any of the BS that causes her to fall off?
You wanna fix her? Start with that S3. Make the Guts and Immune guaranteed effects, which the latter working 3 times, and give it some other RNG effects since that's her gimmick apparently before Rin Faces stole it. S1 isn't desperate for a buff, but either make the Buster buff 3 Turns so she can stack it, or just give it NP Damage on top of the Buster buff so she can hit like a truck on T2 and T3.
3:16:25 True, I have Avicebron grailed and use him for 3t farming too.
For next year: 1-3* all classes at once, 4-5* one class at a time, and you do compare the 4* to the 5*, maybe assume NP2 for 4* and NP1 for 5*.
👍
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only on who gets passionate about the caster list. Some of that banter between Plushie and Otto was really fun.
Only strong opinion I have is CasGil. I haven't used him myself but on paper he doesn't feel like EX. He's definitely stacked enough for an A+ but I don't see him really bringing anything unique or special enough for higher than that.
👍bro this is hilarious also thank you so much for making these I've been playing for about 2 years and these tier lists really help with deciding what to raise next
I love these tier lists. Easily my favorite content by Myst.
Man i just wish Quick had more of an identity than being the forgotten child cause many of my fave servants to use are quick servants.
@@xenoemblem7 Don't get me wrong i love using Quick servants, i just feel & i'm not the only one who think they are lacking compared to the other card types. They really need to buff their survivability in some way so they can be used more viably in challenge quests or harder content.
@@xenoemblem7Buster is replete with star bombs, Arts has decent options for stargen, and everyone has access to star gen/bomb CEs. Crit stars are barely an advantage for Quick at all now, and Buster tends to make better use of crits.
The Illya debate lmao. The one thing I really like about her is her survival tbh. Even tho the 3rd skill is RNG she carried me through so many boss battles with using Merlin + Tamamo spam
Aesc is by far my favorite dps Caster servant for farming. Not only farming is consistent for her being a Buster servant but also because of Atlas mystic code she can do 3 turns without the need of a third support.
I am a hard asec supporter she could have been the best support/dps in the game, but they put a built in nerf on her so she wouldn't be game breaking with her third skill, but also I've run damage calcs and on neutral farming she would out damage kuku if she had no starting restrictions on her skill 3 even as a caster.
Medea should be higher. All the other low rarity casters are AOE, so she can still compete despite her gimped modifiers. Her attack stat isn't just the highest among the 3* casters, it's over 500 more (even after considering caster modifier), which kind of makes up for her lack of self buffs as long as you have enough supports. When fighting a single assassin enemy, I honestly think she might still be the best option among low rarities. She can spam her np very easily, and since low rarity casters probably won't break with only np, she is probably the most consistent, since she can practically guarantee back to back nps to break a bar in 2 turns (or 1t with good rng), and her refund not being entirely dependent on her face cards lets you use castoria face cards to also get her np. Other low rarity casters would have to rely on their own cards, which is less consistent and doesn't let you go for support nps.
I was waiting for this caster tier list. I'm very happy for Tonelico/Morgan potential, right now playing through lb6 and next year for np5 Tonelico/Morgan.
My favorite thing about tonelico is she has probably the most broken kit ever that they had to hold her third skill back so she wouldn't break the game. Also she can do kuku levels of damage as a caster so imagine if she wasn't one.
@@treybrady9134 Her skills does alot and her np as well. Her third skill may or may not activate on the first turn and it's on cooldown of 5 then go 10 but it's not a problem at all. More np level more damage against evil alignments, its really good. If she ever gets a buff it would be her third skill, who knows her np might be the one to get a buff that reduce all her skills cooldown.
Plushie was about to call in Koyan Dark to drop a meteor on the whole list 😂👍🏾
👍👍👍 that Illya segment was awesome!
8 hours...Let's go 🍷🗿.
Eh, I have a lot more disagreements with this one.
Cu can loop from 0 and is way easier to get up on NP levels (scarce banners aside) than his SR/SSR competition.
Tonelico is awkward and requires a lot from team members to work for farming.
Merlin is not a Buster support. He is a support who happens to havd better synergy with Buster by virtue of his skill and Arts by virtue of his deck. Skadi's use case outside of 3-turn lopping is rare; Merlin's is not.
This man alone is saving us from tiktok brain rot
👍😂 Plushie is not shy to say it out
Thanks as usual on the tierlist, breakdowns are really helpful!
congrats to the three yappaneers 👍
the Illya section was amazing
Now this is the real content we are looking for 👍
Missed the stream will watch the whole vod.
Hopefully i can catch the Berserker tier list live, thats the one I'm most exicted for.
Edit: Ilya and Sanzang 👍
ngl Asclepius has been one of those surprisingly good units for me. Thanks to his low cost due to being a 3*, I love slapping him on the backline as an emergency help out. I love using him a lot 👍
The funniest thing about these lists is that they're true, but don't take the abnormal into account. Like for instance, I have np 1 Sanzang, but because I tried to get np 3 Miyu, I have an np 5 Illya. She still feels very rough to use, but good lord that np hits like a freight train.
Great list as always, can't wait for Sunday, when I will be in chat coping for Kerry next week!!
Also, 👍
👍otto goated, definitely gonna hear Episode 27 now
also want to add that sheba is indeed A, yui isnt account changing but makes quick/buster mix buffs and rainbow buffs a lot better (i myself have been wanting a EX tier quick/arts support for a while) and i would like a 1-2 or 1-3 stars tier list next year
Great content as always, will watch the entire thing everytime and maybe a 2nd time
Another idea to build on Otto's 'low-star tier list' idea; perhaps the low-star tier list could be 'permanent F2P'-oriented, only including 1*, 2*, and permanent 3* units. The class tier lists would then include *all* 3* units (speed through the permanent 3* units since you covered them, and have them be points of reference for other servants) and all gold units.
I would argue against the fact that Tonelico's Charisma given so many buffs being stupid...It actually good if you get buff removal (not the all buffs removed at once) and you don't lose everything because they are spread out into many buffs.
lasagna : "OC prio battle with castoria, you say? hold my beer..."
*proceed to buff tamamo's np's cooldown reduction amount based on overcharge* :'v
Honestly, I would love to see Skadi get either a heal(1k per turn 3 turns) on her Skill 1 or a targetable evade(1 time, 3 turns) or the like. She does need something for the sake of sustainability.
Why waste a buff like that, give her 30% more flat charge and gain on skill 1.
Love the tier list Myst keep up the good work and also 👍
As someone who has both np1 Sanzo and Illya i don't use either honestly, even against zerks in 90++ I'd just bring someone else. I think if they ever fixed Illya's 3rd skill or did something with Sanzo's first skill I'd consider it. Although as far as Merlin is concerned I used to do a weird comp with regular Abby with Tamamo and Merlin that kind of worked for CQs as funny as it sounds. Loved the nearly 20 minute Illya rant and I hope we get another hot take for the last few classes. 👍
Love how Otto and Plushie where having the most heated discussion if all the tierlists so far and myst was just watching
I think adding an S tier would solve a lot of issues with servant placements. Theres a lot of top tier dps servants that make perfect sense in an S tier. Especially when theyre too strong for A tier, but arent metadefining to warrant the Ex rating.
7:48:00 Idk how you can say they were never going to add Olga because she was still important in the story when Castoria was released a year before LB6 lmao
Paracelsus can be a better loop support than Xu Fu for cases where an extra 20% NP Gain is better than a 30% charge. Plus his own NP, which he can get with only Mana Loading + his own self battery, can be used to overcharge the looper one time.
I don't understand how Edison is A+. He stinks as both a DPS and a looper, and while he does have some neat Support abilities, I don't see how they can be enough to qualify him for A+. Maybe I just don't do stall comps enough.
And what do you mean you can't get 3 Nitocris NPs back to back? Wave 1: Kscope. Wave 2: Self-battery. Wave 3: 2x 50% chargers. Change Kscope to a 30-50% CE if you swap in a 3rd 50% charger. And, Big Brain/Meme 6CE farming comp against 3 Bronze waves: Wave 1: Self-battery. Wave 2: 2x KoyanLight Batteries. Wave 3: Atlas Cooldown reduction + Battery.
You can get Nito to loop but with that setup the damage would be god awful so might as well pick one of the other way better options at that point.
@@MystFGO Well yes, that's why I said Bronze waves for instakill friendliness (and memes).
That tamamo face lmao
7:46:45 The more distasteful thing about Tonelico is actually that they had the hubris to give us a Morgan version that only has one real ascension art. Hoping one day she gets a costume with a proper Final art for her.
Otto had some great points in this one when it came to Illya.👍
Skadi still needs help getting to her NP which is why I wish she would get charge from her own battery no matter who you used it on or make it like Tez’s battery skill
Okey so, I used to have a JP account just to try out some servants, and I remember Waver was so powerful in longer fights as a support for both mochizuki and Summer erice. Like, he was going reaaaaaally hard xD
I also have an NP1 da Vinci and I do think she's very good for multi core teams as she has everything you want
5:21:33 She's not a universal support though. Buster can't use her at all because of how buster functions. You need a combo of Koyans and Oberons to loop with all buster units. Even 130% chargers like Melu requires it. For cq, losing a Koyan's human/man niche would tank damage by a lot. Even quick is not a fit for her since they'd be down a large of amount of charge from removing a Skadi, most quick already struggle to loop 3 caster waves as is. Even most arts servants wouldn't be bringing her in 90++ because that's a lot of arts up, charge and np gain to lose. If cq is all it took to make a servant ex, then a lot of characters should move up several spots, especially when you keep reiterating that they only compete with their rarity. Heck, most people would bring stall to cq to begin with since min turn runs are for whales. She's basically a pretty niche use case. You also forgot to factor that she's a limited "collab" servant. Who knows when she'll ever get a rerun, if ever.
I'm not gonna lie, the bias towards Miyu is so insane I could never agree that she's good
She can be used decently but like, the only places she's ever used in are like fights where any other support can take her place and just do better it's not like an Andersen case where her utility is that good or brings value to justify it, all you're really doing is stalling until she can reach her high point and stat stick your way into out sustain and beat the opponent which is just Art servants doing Art things but I feel like there wasn't a good enough explanation to convince her high placement
Where exactly does she perform well that people remember her? And despite being NP1 for the criteria I honestly think even at NP5 she's still a meme servant that's just bad as a pure servant
Would you really set up an entire team just for Miyu because that's what I feel when using her, I feel like the entire party has to commit into allowing her to set up her gimmick or her purpose of being in the team just doesn't function and Plushie even said himself there are some people who think Merlin out of all people isn't fast enough to setup his NP buff stacking, why is Miyu so high I could never understand but that's just my opinion it's not like she gives anything other than attack buffs so spamming the same buff type isn't even that much of a big deal unless you're black grail with Oberon or something so like Otto said, despite the difficulty for actually setting her up, the return investment isn't that high, the hell are you gonna do if you get debuffed more than once? The setup instantly falls apart because her teammates are the ones who are gonna be affected by the lost heavily as much as any other team but Miyu can't provide anything else.
I was honestly shocked when you said her NP scales better than Reines NP because she realistically doesn't even need copies for everyone to admit she's a top tier support and function properly, while everyone needs to emphasize Miyu's so called "potential" at Np5. Tho even then Reines's NP actually does a lot for the team. And also really talking about NP5 Miyu to compare with Np1 5 stars supports was so random for me because what was the point of bringing it up, can I just bring Kriemhild to EX tier because technically she can kill almost every boss within her anti trait and is stronger than NP1 Kintoki, Vlad, Draco, Berserker Castoria?
With the comparison with Lady Avalon, I think the comparison shouldn't just be a 1v1 but more like, Lady Avalon goes extremely well for almost every arts support you could possibly synergize with, while with Miyu, it's really just the NP stacking that's benefiting the team in a universal sense and like I said before, you usually pair her with servants(Like Voyager, another Miyu, any team Np charge support really) who can help her setup not because she has the ability to achieve it herself until after 4 turns into battle or something which is retarded at this point and I think her being a 4 star actually hurts her more than anything because her high party cost isn't that worth it I'm gonna be real
If there was a counter argument to this, I think I would've been using her myself. Literally when it comes to dps, Use case is like the number 1 factor while there was like little to none to be said about Miyu other than "She heals the team really good" I honestly laughed when the chat says she was useful when they say that she was used in their Castoria Invincible team when that's not really a real achievement for Miyu herself. I think if you need to defend a character for the entire showcase of her valuation, the criteria shouldn't have been Np1 because the consistency just broke at that point for me. Meanwhile Asclepius had to keep being brought up because he's a story lock
Which probably doesn't even matter cuz at the end of the day it's just a video for fun and entertainment
I laughed so hard at second time when Plushie said Ryou trying to solo with Miyu died against an Assassin boss and said "He should've used Habetrot" I can't believe soloing was brought up because to me it felt like bringing up WIlliam Tell's anti evade damage as an actual argument everyone knew Plushie was dying inside and gave up
Sanzang can Buster Loop with a 50% CE. She also doubles up her 20% attack up on turns 1 and 2. Using her own battery on turn 3 allows Oberon to double the 20% NP Damage up on it.
1st turn: 50% CE + Koyan A 50% battery
2nd turn: Koyan B 50% Battery + Oberon 50% Battery
3rd turn: Oberon 20% Battery + Sanzang 80% Battery.
👍 Watching that part live was hilarious! Love the tier list.
I terms of Otto and Plushie's "bring a defense support too" arguement for why its fine that Skadi lacks defense, I feel like thats glossing over party cost, managing whos on the front line when, etc.
(Example below)
Take Sima YI, since she was suggested as the answer to Skadi lacking defense in her kit.
So you can borrow a friend's copy (which cant always be reliable for events in terms of CE amd such), or that means having to pull 2 limited SSRs which arent on rate up often. Then sink double the resources to level up their skills. Then using them will take 32 team cost as opposed to 16 and take up the entire frontline along with one dps.
I feel like while normally valuing a servant based on synergy with a support is fine, this feels like valuing a servant based on their ability to support a dps well as long as you also use a different support along with that first support because the first support isn't good on its own.
watched just to see what yall thought of Aesc's kit and found out some people really are salty over her being anniversary... she has one ascension in a swimsuit and nothing else close to summer related... like at best we could have gotten one more Aesc ascension but there really isnt any criteria for anniversary so making them usable in the event story seems like a real silly reason to be upset especially when its just your headcanon. things im pretty sure are planned out far in advance really crying over nothing mate.
Thanks for video! waiting for the berserkers tier list
Still remember "save for castoria"
The Cu Caster thing is an Odin lore. Odin sacrificed himself on the Yggdrasil tree to obtain the runes.
I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows
from where its roots run.
No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes, screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there.
Username checks out lol
I like Otto’s suggestion.
A single tier list for Mango, 1-Stars, and 2-Stars. And then keep the class lists for 3-Stars through 5-Stars
👍
@1:19:37 Why is Seigfried the only Servant with 2 skills at level 1 bit other Servants need max ascension to get their 3rd skill I wonder.
Both Skadi are Ex+, let's fucking go.
Also looking back at last year, why wasn't Santa Martha ex back then? Didn't you use her that much or were there more cqs that made her relevant?
On the topic of separating the tier lists, I am not against throwing all the bronze servants into one big pot. They are mostly there to use their skills and immediately die afterwards. With that reasoning, their class doesn't really matter.
Edit: oh yeah, Otto was technically the first guy to alter the tier list by using the birthday card. So taking bribes is fine in my book lol.
Holy shit 8 hours 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 you guys are mad lads
sanzang vs illya is content 👍
Where is Illya on the thumbnail after that intense debate over her vs. Sanzang :p
I did not expect the most heated discussion on this tierlist to be on Illya's segment 💀👍
Otto, may you sometime tries George-Gong-Gong comp for infinite taunt comp :'v
what Skadi really needs is a self battery per turn like rider Da Vinci or a big np gain up... also it's weird for Myst to ask of Quick to play slow, because you know... it's quick
Have to say, Otto, you’ve got me on the Phantom train. He’s pretty okay.
I think one tier list for all 1-3 Servants and then individual lists for every 4-5 Class is very good idea.
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼 great content, as always!
i got merlin after 2 multis today wooooooooooooooooo time to save for castoria and kirei
Plushie at the end lmao, can't stop laughing 👍
Separating low stars into their own tier list sounds like a good idea, although the number is pretty bloated since you're taking from all classes. Someone suggested leaving out story locked 3 stars, which I agree with, I'm not sure about welfares though since the standard varies so greatly from okay or decent(the majority if I'm not mistaken) to stupid good without being crazy like Santa Martha.
Earlier in the stream: "There isn't much to discuss about casters. This list should be quick"
_"see vid length over 8 hours*_ LOL
19:30, wait, he have a debuff, so Hans have a higher chance to debuff HIMSELF with his 3rd unpgraded skill.
Before this list I never thought I'd see Skadi in EX+, but that's probably the placement I agree the most here (other than the obvious ones).
Skadi's kinda underrated nowadays, but whenever I use her she's still so freakin awesome, and the numbers prove that. She's still good for farming, but for CQ she's definitely better than Summer Skadi, so they should be on the same EX+ level.
That illya segment had me laughing so hard 👍
Illya discussion was amazing 👍🏻🤣
I think Miyu could really use a double buff. I think its really silly how Xu Fu is better than her in a lot of situations just due to her buffing the entire party with her kit (minus the NP). Miyu has the higher cost, with the only thing keeping her up being the nice support NP. Its funny too because Xu Fu's second skill is just Miyu's first skill but target able.
The things Tonelico could do if her S3 doesn't have an initial Cooldown. Or if her NP can either stack the Buster or have its Invul lasted 3 Turns
I would love a all classes low star tierlist 👍
just 4 turned the current challenge quest from white days event with Gong. he's still Gong Tier!
Returned in game after 4 years break, and just got Merlin :D
The ritual works indeed