In the US receptacles are permitted close to the sink basin and would be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker or receptacle to trip off with current draw imbalance over 5ma. phase to neutral or conductors to earth.
In Hungary I notice the light switches for a bathroom tend to be placed outside the bathroom. In my house there's also an LED indicator on the bathroom lightswitch that shows if the light is switched on in the bathroom. However, we invariably have socket outlets in bathrooms as it's the most common location here for the washing machine.
The zones around the hand basin that you mentioned are a requirement under AS/NZ 3000:2007 . That might be where the lighting company got the info from. I am surprised that you don't have a zone around the hand basin. Years ago the S.E.L.V razor units were allowed to be about 2.5 feet above the surface of the wash basin. Not any more they have to be 1.5 m away from any water source.
In Ireland the standard practice is to put the switch outside the bathroom door. This also seems to be the practice in Germany even though they're not as squeamish as us about putting socket outlets inside bathrooms (sometimes quite near to sinks as well -I'm not sure if the concept of "zones" is a thing there ?) Proper 16A CEE 7/3 Sockets too and not those transformer isolated things. Indeed in many European countries they put their washing machines/driers in the bathroom and think we're odd for having laundry appliances in the kitchen.
The 3 m rule with socket outlets in the bathroom is a rubbish rule, as i've seen many small bathrooms that do not comply. The socket outlet typical located above the vanity is for the shaver or hair dryer, to not have any outlets in the bathroom is massively inconvenient. All that happens I find is the customer runs an even more dangerous extension lead into the bathroom where the plug gets wet or the power board can get bumped into the vanity basin with water in it. or even dropped in the bath tub. I found one customer had the 4 way power board tied around the shower head in the shower. They all had RCD on them but the rules do not see that safe guard as sufficient protection. So the rules do not work they just get by passed.
Never seen a socket fitted above the vanity. Simply because it would be within the zones. Any electrician installing it would be prosecuted. If the customer wants to kill themselves, that's their business
In reply to your email, thank you John, much indebted. The power shower pump is completely enclosed and is only reached with the aid of a screwdriver, so must be outside the zones.
Hi John again I find you clearly explaining a topic, thank you for being here. Can I ask a question which you may have answered before given the 115 comments. I've recently had a EICR carried out on a property and they have come back with a C2 on the bathroom lights (not of correct IP rating) the ceiling height being 2.3 from FFL which has made the report unsatisfactory. Whilst appreciating it's probably advisable, from listening to your explanation it's not necessary. Could you advise please as I think I'm understanding correctly. Regards Alan
It’s so strange how the UK seems to have this irrational fear of putting in electrical sockets in bathrooms, we have them in New Zealand and all you need is for them to have an RCD. Very useful for hair driers and straighteners etc
Watching this now and looking at how many new builds are asking for socket outlets inside mirror cabinets for hair dryers and straightening irons etc. Most of those bathrooms aren't larger than 3m, but have a glass partition 2.2m high. So is it still taken that it's no different than a socket in the airing cupboard of bathrooms of old or should it be following Reg 413 and be separated, dedicated circuit with no shared cpc on an RCBO. As most of those hair dryers and irons have a lead a couple meters long they're still long enough for someone to commit suicide from the hallway socket if they wanted.
Ceiling mounted sockets would not normally comply as the plug may become loose and overheat. An external socket where the cover holds the plug in may be ok but would look rubbishy
Thanks Mr Ward for your videos. Just to assure what I understand. A light can be installed in the ceiling above the bath tub higher than 2.25 m. In my home the toilet ceiling is about 2.4 m will be ok. Correct? Many thanks
2.25m above the floor is outside the zones. Lights can be installed in the zones if they are suitable for that location. This only applies where there is a bath or shower. Not applicable to other rooms such as toilets.
Hi John - could you explain the regulations with regard to a bathroom that has been converted into a wet room. This is where the complete floor area is adapted to become the shower tray I am thinking specifically where you have a normal sized bathroom with an electric shower with outlet on a flexible hose, and not a fixed outlet which is covered in your blog above.
'Fixed outlet' includes the point where a hose would be attached, so it's still the same zones. Attaching a hose does not alter the dimensions of any zone.
Great videos: so informative. John, is it OK to install a standard 13A switched socket inside an enclosed cupboard within a bathroom? The cupboard contains the hot water cylinder and is accessed by a normal (room) door ie not secured shut but making the cupboard a bit like another room?? I was intending to fix a double socket inside so that the immersion heater and shower pump could be separately plugged in. The shower cubicle is adjacent to the cupboard and the bath is c.2m away so both within 3m.
Yes, it then is the same as a socket installed outside of the bathroom (which in reality could be directly outside of the doorway and in close proximity to the bath).
Regarding zone 2. If you have a shower enclosure would you measure 60 cm from the opening of the enclosure? i.e. a rectangular shower enclosure 120cm long with the opening at the end, would you measure 60 cm from the opening?
Hi, very informative video, thank you. I would like to confirm if shower extractor fan can be installed in zone 1 ? I am looking to install just above the shower head in zone 1, please advise, thank you.
Yes, if the fan is rated to at least IPX4 and the manufacturer's instructions state it is suitable for installing in zone 1. If the space above is accessible (loft or attic), then the fan can be located up there with a duct to the ceiling inlet. Fan doesn't have to be rated anything specific in that situation as the fan isn't in the bathroom.
Hi John, great video as always. I am rewiring a house and running cables for the sparky to connect and test. In my bathroom I am trying to place the wall extractor fan, am I right in placing this above the bath as long as it is over 2.25m high and above the shower nozzle height? I am wiring a 3 pole switch outside the bathroom for it. Oh, and thanks for the info on the basin zones. I am wiring in an illuminated light with demister over the basin and some of the diagrams confused me (fused spur outside the bathroom next to the fan switch, onto the ring main) Thanks
+James Garlick Fine above 2.25m as that is outside the zones. Many extractors can be used within zone 1 and 2, provided they are at least IPX4 and the manufacturer states they are suitable.
Great Vid - very informative. It seems that I would be able to install a mains switch for a mirror demister near the wash basin correct? I don't HAVE to comply to the 60cm radius rule?
Yes, the restriction is at least 60cm from the bath or shower, the distance from the basin is something invented by lighting manufacturers and has never appeared in BS7671.
I am staying in Portugal! On holiday, in our bathroom we have 2 plug sockets. 1 has a water proof cover; the other is exposed but is not in direct contact with water. The shower is built into the wall deep around 1.5 meters, the plug socket is on the wall against this deepened area. The room can get steamy. I try to ventilate it. Could I get an eletric shock? Please help.
I want to change pull cord light switch to normal switch outside bathroom as inside wall is tiled so much easier to go to outside as a stud wall ,can i just run the 3 wires in the pull cord to a normal light switch ,as the fan is connected to pull cord with it affect the fan ?
I was curious about if regulations change if the only water outlet of a shower is via a flexible hose, and can be moved about and aimed in any direction. Or would the only factor be where the hose attaches to the water outlet, but obviously that could be much further away than where the water is actually going to be used?
+jayja45 It's where the shower hose connects, which is the 'fixed water outlet' referred to. Not really any different to a shower with flexible hose mounted over a bath - shower hoses are generally fairly short anyway. However if a shower hose is used, consideration should be given to the water resistance of items installed nearby, even if they are outside of the zones as water can be sprayed over a much larger area that those defined by the zones.
This regulation sounds familiar, german regulation DIN VDE 0100 part 701, is completely identical. The zones and the dimensions are exactly the same. This is part of the european harmonization (CENELEC). There's only one difference in Germany which you would not find in any other EU-country: The fixed installed water heaters could be installed without an RCD, even in zone 1 and 2. But only in case of a TN-grid, and if the time for disconnecting (fuse, MCB) is less than 0.4 seconds. In case of a TT-grid you would not get such low disconnecting times, so you must install a 30mA RCD. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Electrotechnical_Standardization
But we here in Germany can use socket outlets in small bathrooms. As lang as the are more then 60 cm away from the bath tub (that's zone 3)An 30 mA RCD protection ist required
Is it still a requirement for a socket outlet to be at least 2.5 metres away from a shower cubicle within a bedroom? It certainly was during my apprentice training. Yet a restriction of 3 metres now exists within a bathroom. Some younger people may find it strange to have such a strange regulation, but shower cubicles within a bedroom were once common especially in the '70s.
That particular regulation was removed starting with the 16th edition, where the concept of 'zones' was introduced. From the 16th, sockets had to be outside of the zones, which was at least 3m away. Today the zones are much smaller and only extend to 0.6m from the bath or shower, but there is now an additional requirement that all socket outlets must be at least 3m away.
Hi John we’ve got a situation whereby sockets were recessed in a kitchen but right next door they had the bathroom, more precisely the exact are for showering. Unfortunately, the cavity wasn’t very deep between the two rooms and thus the sockets are sitting very thinly against the tiles of the bath tub. How thick does the wall have to be between the bath and the kitchen bearing in mind the recessed socket sitting just behind the tiles in the bathroom? Thanks.
There are no electrical regulations which apply in that situation. There are plenty of others such as for structure, fire resistance, sound resistance and so on. The wall must be exceptionally thin for that situation to occur, standard blocks/bricks are around 100m depth, and the deepest backbox used is 47mm, and that's without the additional thickness of plaster, tiles and other finishes.
so what happens if you install a wetroom and you partition off an area to house a pump for the waste can the switched spur that feeds/isolates the pump be in the box so 240 into the switched spur and 240 to the pump
Great clarity, thank you John. Please may I ask you about that zone under a completely boxed-in bath? This might seem a possible location for electrical apparatus, e.g. a shower pump, given suitable precautions. But would the regs concur?
No socket-outlets within 3m of zone 1? Where do you plug in your electric toothbrush charger, hair-dryer, hair curling iron, water pik, melt warmer and all the other bathroom accessories?
Hi John. The 3m distance to any sockets is an interesting one. I know of one recent loft conversion incorporating a shower that under this rule shouldn't have any sockets but does, and I'm told it has building regs approval. Also what about sockets in adjoining rooms? Here I've got an outlet in the bedroom next to the bathroom that's exactly 3m horizontally to the edge of the bath but measured around two corners and two doorways. What's the situation here? Edit: Should add that the shower above is in a sliding door enclosure, but I don't think that has any bearing on the situation.
+John Ward Ta for that. It's obvious that the 3m rule is to prevent say a hairdrier with a normal 2m or so flex being used anywhere near a bath/shower, but I've always wondered if a socket outside the bathroom but within 3m was considered to be too much of a temptation.
Does the rule of no socket outlets within 3 meters of zone 1 preclude the installation of a socket outlet on a ceiling too? Assuming the ceiling is higher than 2.25m then would a socket be permitted? It's mainly the part that says "horizontally from zone 1" and does not mention vertically any restrictions, and especially since above 2.25m is considered out of zone
+John Smith Not that I specifically would want one myself. But I was asked before if a socket could be put in the bathroom for a radio to be plugged in. I said probably best not to put a socket in there but I just wondered if in special cases of bathrooms with very high ceilings would it actually be compliant with the regs if mounted into the ceiling and as such out of zones?
+CrimsonTrainer Most radio's come with a 1 meter lead, so it would essentially be dangling from the roof. Good question though. I guess it would be permitted but no sane electrician would implement it.
My bath side panel has a bad habit of the end popping out when I shut the door. Does this make this area zone 1 rather than outside the zones? I haven't checked if there is anything electrical under the bath.
German here, and I don't know the German regulations, but I've never seen a bathroom without sockets. How do you use hair dryers, toothbrushes and so on if you don't have sockets in bathrooms in the UK?
They have to be used in other rooms. The only permitted socket in UK bathrooms is a 2 pin shaver socket with an isolating transformer, and they are limited to only a few watts, shavers and some rechargeable toothbrushes only.
Hello JW, Thanks for the information; it's really useful and clearly explained. I have a question: am I allowed to locate my boiler and washing machine (both in a cupboard) in my bathroom? They will both have individual FCU's which will be protected by individual 30mA RCDs. The boiler and washing machine will be in a cupboard located outside of Zone 2 but not 3m from the edge of the bath I have read the regulations but am still unsure. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Cheers
Thanks a lot for the video. I have a question too, 1. Does 3 meters restriction for main plugs includes shaver sockets too ? 2. I heard that, if shaver socket with isolating transformer can be used in zone 2 ? 3. Should I use 12V or 230v downlights in bathroom ? Thanks
+Selim Dogan Isolated shaver sockets can be used in zone 2, the 3m restriction does not apply to them. SELV outlet can also be used. Either 12v or 230v lights can be used provided they are suitable for use in bathrooms.
I'm in Thetford, Norfolk and trying to find an electrician that is aware of this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. If anyone can recommend would be helpful.
what if my tower radiator it has internal AC heating element with external digital controller and isolator switch that is located more than 60 cm from the bath?
It's all a load of pants,cos if they change the layout of the bathroom after the electrics are installed, or a wet room is installed later the whole place could become wrong and potentially dangerous with switches sockets and lights in the wrong zones
Yes, the zones only apply within the bathroom, not outside of it. And yes, that does make a nonsense of the whole thing if the bathroom is small and there is a socket directly outside the door.
I've seen sinks in bedrooms and hotels. Does that mean, people can have a 13 amp socket above a sink, because it is not in a bathroom (which also means the 3 metre rule doesn't apply)? I wouldn't myself, but there would be nothing in the regs to stop me fulfilling my customers' wishes? My brother has a funeral business. I think he would be grateful for my strict adherence to the regs.⚡💀
@@jwflame Yes, I know John. But, the way you delivered it, as you appear to be doing now, you seem to support the fact that the regs are unimpeachable in the same way biblical adherents follow their perfect book (which it is absolutely not). It may be in the regs but, would you put a socket above a sink so that your wife can plug in either hair dryers or hair straighteners? Are the regs correct because they at least do not "note" my concerns as outlined. And, neither should they, you suggest. You appear to be saying it is perfectly acceptable to ignore a sink in every circumstance regards sockets etc. I'm sure you don't mean your wife, my child or anyone are potentially expendable because the regs are unquestioningly right. And, many houses don't have RCDs, so the power will not disconnect. Let's take another step into ridiculous danger. I take there is no zone 0 in a sink? Really! There must be something somewhere in the regs that cautions against sockets or lights or other electrical accessories in sinks. And I don't mean general rules about safety etc
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers Then you end with overregulations like: don't put your cat in the microwave. You have to rely also on commen sense of users.
Outside the zones (above 2.25m) SELV not required for anything. 230V lighting and many other items can be installed in zone 1 or 2 provided it it suitable for the environment according to the manufacturer.
I have a question. I am thinking of buying a cabinet from Germany to be used in UK. The cabinet comes with lights and also a plug/electrical outlet in the cabinet. The plug/electrical outlet from my understanding is German standard 240V outlet. My question is is the lights and plug/electrical outlet permitted to be used in UK? This is the product I am thinking of buying en.reuter.de/keuco-royal-reflex-mirror-cabinet-w-65-h-70-d-15-cm-a309669.php
Cabinet and the lights are fine, the only problem with using it in the UK is that BS7671 requires that socket outlets are at least 3m distance from the bath or shower. Type of outlet is not specified, so would apply to the German type as well.
Thank you for the information. I would like to know a little more. The electrical plug for shaver/electrical appliances is 240V which is located in the cabinet. From my understanding fir UK standard it is 110-120V for shaver. Is this still legal/appropriate to use? This is the link to the product schematic www.keuco.com/KEUCO/PRODUCTS/MIRROR_CABINETS/ROYAL_REFLEX/p486273l4/images/artikel_dokumente/KEMA6162366.pdf
Sockets for shavers in the UK must contain an isolating transformer, and generally have both 120V and 240V outputs. Those in the cabinet are not isolated, so its either disconnect the sockets and comply with BS7671, or leave them connected and not comply.
I have a mirror with a plug and a light inside it (outside plug). I was testing my RCD and found that the mirror light and plug was still live. Is this fine? My lights and not an a RCD my the plugs are
+C00m7ee Fairly common for lights not to have an RCD in older installations, and mirrors/cabinets with lights are often connected to the lighting circuit.
These zones only apply to installations wired to BS7671 17th edition. The wiring from the incoming supply all the way to the wiring in the bath or shower room has to comply with the 17th edition regulations in full. Without this you could be creating a dangerous situation. DON'T DIY in bath or shower rooms, the consequences can be lethal!
Not only it is a pleasure to listen at you but the video quality, presentation and composition are very high.
Many Thanks
Jo
In the US receptacles are permitted close to the sink basin and would be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker or receptacle to trip off with current draw imbalance over 5ma. phase to neutral or conductors to earth.
Your videos are very informative and professional.
Thanks John.
In Hungary I notice the light switches for a bathroom tend to be placed outside the bathroom. In my house there's also an LED indicator on the bathroom lightswitch that shows if the light is switched on in the bathroom. However, we invariably have socket outlets in bathrooms as it's the most common location here for the washing machine.
The zones around the hand basin that you mentioned are a requirement under AS/NZ 3000:2007 . That might be where the lighting company got the info from. I am surprised that you don't have a zone around the hand basin. Years ago the S.E.L.V razor units were allowed to be about 2.5 feet above the surface of the wash basin. Not any more they have to be 1.5 m away from any water source.
In Ireland the standard practice is to put the switch outside the bathroom door. This also seems to be the practice in Germany even though they're not as squeamish as us about putting socket outlets inside bathrooms (sometimes quite near to sinks as well -I'm not sure if the concept of "zones" is a thing there ?) Proper 16A CEE 7/3 Sockets too and not those transformer isolated things. Indeed in many European countries they put their washing machines/driers in the bathroom and think we're odd for having laundry appliances in the kitchen.
The 3 m rule with socket outlets in the bathroom is a rubbish rule, as i've seen many small bathrooms that do not comply. The socket outlet typical located above the vanity is for the shaver or hair dryer, to not have any outlets in the bathroom is massively inconvenient. All that happens I find is the customer runs an even more dangerous extension lead into the bathroom where the plug gets wet or the power board can get bumped into the vanity basin with water in it. or even dropped in the bath tub. I found one customer had the 4 way power board tied around the shower head in the shower. They all had RCD on them but the rules do not see that safe guard as sufficient protection. So the rules do not work they just get by passed.
Never seen a socket fitted above the vanity. Simply because it would be within the zones. Any electrician installing it would be prosecuted.
If the customer wants to kill themselves, that's their business
In reply to your email, thank you John, much indebted. The power shower pump is completely enclosed and is only reached with the aid of a screwdriver, so must be outside the zones.
Fantastic video. Very insightful, especially the debunking of the incorrect extensions of the zones.
Hi John again I find you clearly explaining a topic, thank you for being here. Can I ask a question which you may have answered before given the 115 comments. I've recently had a EICR carried out on a property and they have come back with a C2 on the bathroom lights (not of correct IP rating) the ceiling height being 2.3 from FFL which has made the report unsatisfactory. Whilst appreciating it's probably advisable, from listening to your explanation it's not necessary. Could you advise please as I think I'm understanding correctly. Regards Alan
It’s so strange how the UK seems to have this irrational fear of putting in electrical sockets in bathrooms, we have them in New Zealand and all you need is for them to have an RCD. Very useful for hair driers and straighteners etc
I agree it's a pain in the ass here
Watching this now and looking at how many new builds are asking for socket outlets inside mirror cabinets for hair dryers and straightening irons etc. Most of those bathrooms aren't larger than 3m, but have a glass partition 2.2m high. So is it still taken that it's no different than a socket in the airing cupboard of bathrooms of old or should it be following Reg 413 and be separated, dedicated circuit with no shared cpc on an RCBO. As most of those hair dryers and irons have a lead a couple meters long they're still long enough for someone to commit suicide from the hallway socket if they wanted.
Ceiling mounted sockets would not normally comply as the plug may become loose and overheat. An external socket where the cover holds the plug in may be ok but would look rubbishy
Very good info, I wonder what electrical things people would install inside the bath? O.o
Thanks Mr Ward for your videos. Just to assure what I understand. A light can be installed in the ceiling above the bath tub higher than 2.25 m. In my home the toilet ceiling is about 2.4 m will be ok. Correct?
Many thanks
2.25m above the floor is outside the zones.
Lights can be installed in the zones if they are suitable for that location.
This only applies where there is a bath or shower. Not applicable to other rooms such as toilets.
Ok, thanks. So any kind of light can be installed above 2.25m in the bath ceiling up the bath tub.
Hi John - could you explain the regulations with regard to a bathroom that has been converted into a wet room. This is where the complete floor area is adapted to become the shower tray I am thinking specifically where you have a normal sized bathroom with an electric shower with outlet on a flexible hose, and not a fixed outlet which is covered in your blog above.
'Fixed outlet' includes the point where a hose would be attached, so it's still the same zones. Attaching a hose does not alter the dimensions of any zone.
Thanks John... I will have to sharpen up some of the electricians we use - I hate pull cords like you! One criticism - more blogs please!
Great videos: so informative. John, is it OK to install a standard 13A switched socket inside an enclosed cupboard within a bathroom? The cupboard contains the hot water cylinder and is accessed by a normal (room) door ie not secured shut but making the cupboard a bit like another room?? I was intending to fix a double socket inside so that the immersion heater and shower pump could be separately plugged in. The shower cubicle is adjacent to the cupboard and the bath is c.2m away so both within 3m.
Yes, it then is the same as a socket installed outside of the bathroom (which in reality could be directly outside of the doorway and in close proximity to the bath).
Regarding zone 2. If you have a shower enclosure would you measure 60 cm from the opening of the enclosure? i.e. a rectangular shower enclosure 120cm long with the opening at the end, would you measure 60 cm from the opening?
Another very helpful video there John, keep them coming. Thanks
Hi, very informative video, thank you.
I would like to confirm if shower extractor fan can be installed in zone 1 ?
I am looking to install just above the shower head in zone 1, please advise, thank you.
Yes, if the fan is rated to at least IPX4 and the manufacturer's instructions state it is suitable for installing in zone 1.
If the space above is accessible (loft or attic), then the fan can be located up there with a duct to the ceiling inlet. Fan doesn't have to be rated anything specific in that situation as the fan isn't in the bathroom.
Thank you John, I shall install ipx5 or better, suitable to install in zone1, the fan will be on the wall which will duct to outside through the wall.
Hi John, great video as always. I am rewiring a house and running cables for the sparky to connect and test. In my bathroom I am trying to place the wall extractor fan, am I right in placing this above the bath as long as it is over 2.25m high and above the shower nozzle height? I am wiring a 3 pole switch outside the bathroom for it. Oh, and thanks for the info on the basin zones. I am wiring in an illuminated light with demister over the basin and some of the diagrams confused me (fused spur outside the bathroom next to the fan switch, onto the ring main) Thanks
+James Garlick Fine above 2.25m as that is outside the zones. Many extractors can be used within zone 1 and 2, provided they are at least IPX4 and the manufacturer states they are suitable.
Great Vid - very informative. It seems that I would be able to install a mains switch for a mirror demister near the wash basin correct? I don't HAVE to comply to the 60cm radius rule?
Yes, the restriction is at least 60cm from the bath or shower, the distance from the basin is something invented by lighting manufacturers and has never appeared in BS7671.
Hi John. Thanks for the video and the information. If the socket outlet is inside a cabinet in the bathroom. Is it allowed? Thanks
I am staying in Portugal! On holiday, in our bathroom we have 2 plug sockets. 1 has a water proof cover; the other is exposed but is not in direct contact with water. The shower is built into the wall deep around 1.5 meters, the plug socket is on the wall against this deepened area. The room can get steamy. I try to ventilate it. Could I get an eletric shock? Please help.
I want to change pull cord light switch to normal switch outside bathroom as inside wall is tiled so much easier to go to outside as a stud wall ,can i just run the 3 wires in the pull cord to a normal light switch ,as the fan is connected to pull cord with it affect the fan ?
I was curious about if regulations change if the only water outlet of a shower is via a flexible hose, and can be moved about and aimed in any direction. Or would the only factor be where the hose attaches to the water outlet, but obviously that could be much further away than where the water is actually going to be used?
+jayja45 It's where the shower hose connects, which is the 'fixed water outlet' referred to. Not really any different to a shower with flexible hose mounted over a bath - shower hoses are generally fairly short anyway.
However if a shower hose is used, consideration should be given to the water resistance of items installed nearby, even if they are outside of the zones as water can be sprayed over a much larger area that those defined by the zones.
This regulation sounds familiar, german regulation DIN VDE 0100 part 701, is completely identical. The zones and the dimensions are exactly the same. This is part of the european harmonization (CENELEC). There's only one difference in Germany which you would not find in any other EU-country: The fixed installed water heaters could be installed without an RCD, even in zone 1 and 2. But only in case of a TN-grid, and if the time for disconnecting (fuse, MCB) is less than 0.4 seconds. In case of a TT-grid you would not get such low disconnecting times, so you must install a 30mA RCD.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Committee_for_Electrotechnical_Standardization
But we here in Germany can use socket outlets in small bathrooms. As lang as the are more then 60 cm away from the bath tub (that's zone 3)An 30 mA RCD protection ist required
Is it still a requirement for a socket outlet to be at least 2.5 metres away from a shower cubicle within a bedroom? It certainly was during my apprentice training. Yet a restriction of 3 metres now exists within a bathroom. Some younger people may find it strange to have such a strange regulation, but shower cubicles within a bedroom were once common especially in the '70s.
That particular regulation was removed starting with the 16th edition, where the concept of 'zones' was introduced. From the 16th, sockets had to be outside of the zones, which was at least 3m away. Today the zones are much smaller and only extend to 0.6m from the bath or shower, but there is now an additional requirement that all socket outlets must be at least 3m away.
Hi John we’ve got a situation whereby sockets were recessed in a kitchen but right next door they had the bathroom, more precisely the exact are for showering. Unfortunately, the cavity wasn’t very deep between the two rooms and thus the sockets are sitting very thinly against the tiles of the bath tub.
How thick does the wall have to be between the bath and the kitchen bearing in mind the recessed socket sitting just behind the tiles in the bathroom? Thanks.
There are no electrical regulations which apply in that situation.
There are plenty of others such as for structure, fire resistance, sound resistance and so on.
The wall must be exceptionally thin for that situation to occur, standard blocks/bricks are around 100m depth, and the deepest backbox used is 47mm, and that's without the additional thickness of plaster, tiles and other finishes.
so what happens if you install a wetroom and you partition off an area to house a pump for the waste can the switched spur that feeds/isolates the pump be in the box so 240 into the switched spur and 240 to the pump
Great clarity, thank you John. Please may I ask you about that zone under a completely boxed-in bath? This might seem a possible location for electrical apparatus, e.g. a shower pump, given suitable precautions. But would the regs concur?
If it's only accessible with tools, then it's outside of the zones.
No socket-outlets within 3m of zone 1? Where do you plug in your electric toothbrush charger, hair-dryer, hair curling iron, water pik, melt warmer and all the other bathroom accessories?
+Murray Fraser Toothbrush chargers can be plugged into a shaver outlet, everything else must be used outside of the bathroom.
The shaver socket has to be one with an isolating transformer in it also
No sockets under 3m from the bath or shower, is this canceled if the shower has a door or curtain?
Only if the door makes the shower into a separate room.
Hi John. The 3m distance to any sockets is an interesting one.
I know of one recent loft conversion incorporating a shower that under this rule shouldn't have any sockets but does, and I'm told it has building regs approval.
Also what about sockets in adjoining rooms? Here I've got an outlet in the bedroom next to the bathroom that's exactly 3m horizontally to the edge of the bath but measured around two corners and two doorways. What's the situation here?
Edit: Should add that the shower above is in a sliding door enclosure, but I don't think that has any bearing on the situation.
+Graham Langley Adjoining rooms are not part of the bathroom, so no restrictions, even if the sockets in the next room are less than 3m away.
+John Ward Ta for that. It's obvious that the 3m rule is to prevent say a hairdrier with a normal 2m or so flex being used anywhere near a bath/shower, but I've always wondered if a socket outside the bathroom but within 3m was considered to be too much of a temptation.
Does the rule of no socket outlets within 3 meters of zone 1 preclude the installation of a socket outlet on a ceiling too? Assuming the ceiling is higher than 2.25m then would a socket be permitted? It's mainly the part that says "horizontally from zone 1" and does not mention vertically any restrictions, and especially since above 2.25m is considered out of zone
+CrimsonTrainer
Why would you want a socket on the ceiling of a bathroom?
+John Smith Not that I specifically would want one myself. But I was asked before if a socket could be put in the bathroom for a radio to be plugged in. I said probably best not to put a socket in there but I just wondered if in special cases of bathrooms with very high ceilings would it actually be compliant with the regs if mounted into the ceiling and as such out of zones?
+CrimsonTrainer
Most radio's come with a 1 meter lead, so it would essentially be dangling from the roof. Good question though. I guess it would be permitted but no sane electrician would implement it.
My bath side panel has a bad habit of the end popping out when I shut the door. Does this make this area zone 1 rather than outside the zones?
I haven't checked if there is anything electrical under the bath.
Yes, as no tools required to access that area. However it doesn't matter unless there are electrical items under the bath.
Thank John really needed information your a life saver
German here, and I don't know the German regulations, but I've never seen a bathroom without sockets. How do you use hair dryers, toothbrushes and so on if you don't have sockets in bathrooms in the UK?
They have to be used in other rooms.
The only permitted socket in UK bathrooms is a 2 pin shaver socket with an isolating transformer, and they are limited to only a few watts, shavers and some rechargeable toothbrushes only.
Hello JW,
Thanks for the information; it's really useful and clearly explained.
I have a question: am I allowed to locate my boiler and washing machine (both in a cupboard) in my bathroom? They will both have individual FCU's which will be protected by individual 30mA RCDs. The boiler and washing machine will be in a cupboard located outside of Zone 2 but not 3m from the edge of the bath I have read the regulations but am still unsure.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Yes that's fine. The 3m distance only applies to socket outlets, not applicable if using FCUs.
hi there gud vids. could you do a video on IP codes please? I am struggling a bit with this . thx.
Thanks a lot for the video. I have a question too,
1. Does 3 meters restriction for main plugs includes shaver sockets too ?
2. I heard that, if shaver socket with isolating transformer can be used in zone 2 ?
3. Should I use 12V or 230v downlights in bathroom ?
Thanks
+Selim Dogan Isolated shaver sockets can be used in zone 2, the 3m restriction does not apply to them. SELV outlet can also be used.
Either 12v or 230v lights can be used provided they are suitable for use in bathrooms.
Thanks a lot.
I'm in Thetford, Norfolk and trying to find an electrician that is aware of this is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. If anyone can recommend would be helpful.
Hi John, great and well prepared video. Is it possible to put a washing machine in Zone 2?
Yes, provided the machine is suitable for use in a bathroom. It would need to be connected via fixed wiring as sockets are not permitted.
what if my tower radiator it has internal AC heating element with external digital controller and isolator switch that is located more than 60 cm from the bath?
Hi John these digital showers ,are we allowed to fit fuse spur under bath 2020
Yes, provided the space under the bath is enclosed and can't be accessed without using tools.
It's all a load of pants,cos if they change the layout of the bathroom after the electrics are installed, or a wet room is installed later the whole place could become wrong and potentially dangerous with switches sockets and lights in the wrong zones
Can you install a socket on the bathroom wall, but on the outside right next to the door?
Yes, the zones only apply within the bathroom, not outside of it.
And yes, that does make a nonsense of the whole thing if the bathroom is small and there is a socket directly outside the door.
I've seen sinks in bedrooms and hotels.
Does that mean, people can have a 13 amp socket above a sink, because it is not in a bathroom (which also means the 3 metre rule doesn't apply)?
I wouldn't myself, but there would be nothing in the regs to stop me fulfilling my customers' wishes?
My brother has a funeral business. I think he would be grateful for my strict adherence to the regs.⚡💀
Zones apply around a bath or shower. There are no zones around basins or sinks, and a room without a bath or shower isn't a bathroom.
@@jwflame Yes, I know John.
But, the way you delivered it, as you appear to be doing now, you seem to support the fact that the regs are unimpeachable in the same way biblical adherents follow their perfect book (which it is absolutely not).
It may be in the regs but, would you put a socket above a sink so that your wife can plug in either hair dryers or hair straighteners?
Are the regs correct because they at least do not "note" my concerns as outlined. And, neither should they, you suggest.
You appear to be saying it is perfectly acceptable to ignore a sink in every circumstance regards sockets etc. I'm sure you don't mean your wife, my child or anyone are potentially expendable because the regs are unquestioningly right.
And, many houses don't have RCDs, so the power will not disconnect.
Let's take another step into ridiculous danger. I take there is no zone 0 in a sink? Really! There must be something somewhere in the regs that cautions against sockets or lights or other electrical accessories in sinks. And I don't mean general rules about safety etc
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers Then you end with overregulations like: don't put your cat in the microwave.
You have to rely also on commen sense of users.
when was the need for pull switches removed, and does that include the shower cutoff?
Outside the zones come under the general regs, if a switch is likely to be operated with wet hands then a pull cord is a good idea
A pull cord shower switch may be installed outside the zones with the cord entering the zones.
Is it allowed to have a normal socket near a wash hand basin? even if the basin more that 3m from the shower.
+Kentish Coolen Yes, no restrictions on hand basins or sinks.
if 230V equipment (eg light) installed above 2.25m is it ok or does it need SELV protection?
Outside the zones (above 2.25m) SELV not required for anything.
230V lighting and many other items can be installed in zone 1 or 2 provided it it suitable for the environment according to the manufacturer.
I have a socket under the bath behind a panel for the electric shower Pump. I guess this is not allowed?
+hyperion8008 If the panel is fixed and can only be removed with tools, then the socket is allowed, as that area is not part of any zone.
I have a question. I am thinking of buying a cabinet from Germany to be used in UK. The cabinet comes with lights and also a plug/electrical outlet in the cabinet. The plug/electrical outlet from my understanding is German standard 240V outlet. My question is is the lights and plug/electrical outlet permitted to be used in UK? This is the product I am thinking of buying en.reuter.de/keuco-royal-reflex-mirror-cabinet-w-65-h-70-d-15-cm-a309669.php
Cabinet and the lights are fine, the only problem with using it in the UK is that BS7671 requires that socket outlets are at least 3m distance from the bath or shower. Type of outlet is not specified, so would apply to the German type as well.
Thank you for the information. I would like to know a little more. The electrical plug for shaver/electrical appliances is 240V which is located in the cabinet. From my understanding fir UK standard it is 110-120V for shaver. Is this still legal/appropriate to use? This is the link to the product schematic www.keuco.com/KEUCO/PRODUCTS/MIRROR_CABINETS/ROYAL_REFLEX/p486273l4/images/artikel_dokumente/KEMA6162366.pdf
Sockets for shavers in the UK must contain an isolating transformer, and generally have both 120V and 240V outputs.
Those in the cabinet are not isolated, so its either disconnect the sockets and comply with BS7671, or leave them connected and not comply.
Is this still up to date with the new regs?
Yes, still valid for the 18th edition.
So you can't have any outlet within 3 meters even if it is GFI protected?
+stefantrethan Yes, in most cases UK bathrooms do not have any outlets.
I have a mirror with a plug and a light inside it (outside plug). I was testing my RCD and found that the mirror light and plug was still live. Is this fine?
My lights and not an a RCD my the plugs are
+C00m7ee Fairly common for lights not to have an RCD in older installations, and mirrors/cabinets with lights are often connected to the lighting circuit.
Have these regulations since changed? Or are the regs covered in this video still current.
Still valid now, and still will be from the new version in January 2019.
@@jwflame Thanks John, another excellent video, and with relevant comments, You could pin the one that I am replying to one to the top!
Can a gas boiler be installed in zone 2?
Yes, if it meets IPX4 or better, and the manufacturer of the boiler states it's suitable for installing in a bathroom.
Great video John, as usual
Another great video, thanks John
Great video, thanks for sharing
Just the ticket.. So much I didn't realise I didn't know.
Will you relax and play piano for us sometimes?
so usefully video, appreciating
LOL at 'international protection'. It's always been ingress protection. Wackypedier...
These zones only apply to installations wired to BS7671 17th edition. The wiring from the incoming supply all the way to the wiring in the bath or shower room has to comply with the 17th edition regulations in full. Without this you could be creating a dangerous situation. DON'T DIY in bath or shower rooms, the consequences can be lethal!