"Springs wear out through cycling" Again with this nonsense. CREEP DEFORMATION Do you reject the entire field of material science, or are you just willfully ignorant.
I have never seen a comment about the rug... I just tought it was one of those things better not mentioned. I wish you well and know you have no thoughts of suicide. (just kidding)
Actually the spring is under neither tension nor compression. It's a torsion spring. It reacts load only via twisting. The very long very long torsion spring is then coiled into a shape that is useful (cylinder). Cheap springs will sack when under continuous load for long periods of time because of creep, but that isn't an issue in properly design springs.
As a military Armorer, I was taught to store "Rack Safe", bolt forward, ejection port cover closed, safety on semi and hammer fired. This was not to prevent mythical damage to springs, it was to prevent anything else from happening. If the bolt is already closed, it can't slam closed because the rack gets jarred or bumped. If the hammer is already down, it can't fall for any reason. You mentioned if storing in a vehicle. First of all, that's a good way to lose a gun so don't, but again, any bump or jarring of the weapon could cause the bolt to fall or hammer to fall. Rack safe is the safest way to transport. If the rifle is to be a defensive arm in the truck, carry it "Patrol Ready." That is bolt closed on an empty chamber and a loaded magazine installed. Just a technical note: The springs in question are Compression Springs and are under compression, not tension. A tension spring is like the spring used to hold a screen door closed, it's a spring that pulls. A compression spring Pushes.
You can have your ar on safety while the bolt is charged. Even if you bump the bolt release and load a round, you should still be on safety and still finger off the trigger and still pointed in a sage direction. It's perfectly safe unless youre not
I know that it may be common knowledge to some people, but if not sure - ask!! There's no stupid questions ... Especially for the new to owning people! Great job on your explanation! Love y'all! Please keep up the great job! Thank You!
This is the first time I've heard of storing a rifle with the bolt open. When I think 'storage', though, I think of in the rack or safe for an extended period. There's also 'condition 2' [edit] or 'half loaded' for bolt closed on empty chamber with mag inserted
My only experience with this was in a workshop, where the owner had everything racked open, after a couple mishaps. IDK why he didn't do chamber flags.
they made us do it at times in the Army. I stopped complying the first time it bumped closed. They'd tell people to lock them open to put them in the racks, but in the process of putting them in the racks, the bolt would close, either due to slight shock or due to bumping the catch. absolutely stupid.
Yeah but, you'll get flat spots on tires stored for long periods. Plus, even gun makers when you report stiff springs on guns they make they'll tell you to leave the mag loaded, or store the gun with the slide back to alleviate the issue. So... are both of those busted aslo?
@@CalebSavant Yes. There is a difference between the spring's intended resting point and it's maximum intended compression. It's fine to say that spring creep likely won't be an issue in properly engineered firearms because of the wide safety margins. What you're saying is that it doesn't exist at all which is demonstrably false. There's plenty of old guns and mags left in the closet that malfunction after sitting compressed for years.
Makes too much sense and a rule to follow. I'd do that instead. Last time I checked springs are made of "metals" and metals do "relax" over time of changing temperatures. so YES it will damage the spring. The alignment of metal particles will change under pressure and temperature changes. I would much prefer PROOF and tests that SHOW the results instead of blindly accepting Brownells word for it. That's no different than believing the so called "MYTH". Unless there is scientific evidence through testing then why should we accept their word for it?
I have a HK MP5SD that I purchased about 35 years ago and also have a magazine that has been loaded and sitting for 35 years. Back in the late 1980s, there was this same discussion, so I loaded a magazine and put in storage to test the theory at a later date. One of these days I will do a full-auto magazine dump to put the issue to rest permanently. I am retired from working in the electric power generation field and I have seen springs the size of a 55 gallon drum that are under tremendous pressure for decades without failure.
People don't understand metallurgy or engineering. It's sad but these pearls of wisdom are cast before ignorant, superstitious swine and you're more likely to get a dozen arguments from video game players who watch UA-cam idiots for all their information than a single person actually looking to learn something.
If you take the magazine out of your gun and manually remove all of the rounds from it, you will notice that as you get to the bottom of the magazine, when there are only one or two rounds left in it, there will be barely any pressure from the follower. Storing a mag loaded, or any spring compressed for many years, shortens the overall length of the spring by a few percent. This makes the spring less effective as you get down to the last few rounds in the magazine. It isn't always enough of a pressure difference to cause a failure but sometimes it is. The more rounds stored in the magazine (fully loaded vs downloading by 1 or 2 rounds) also affects how much the spring is shortened. I'm not sure why people keep saying springs wear out from use, not from being compressed for many years, when compression is changing the overall length and affecting it in a different way... Glock magazines, when left fully loaded for 15 years will have almost zero follower pressure when you get down to the last one or two rounds in the magazine.
@@Rezolution01 What people are saying is this is negligible in the grand scheme of operating your platforms, and taking care of and maintaining your kit and gear necessitates you pay enough attention to replace springs and other parts when they need it, but doing this one action is not what is going to wholly negate the longevity of the parts.
@@RichardCranium321 I don't think it's the "best". He seemed most concerned with lubricity, which I think was an error. Any firearm that NEEDS lubrication to function will jam after it fires enough to blow the lubricant out. The "P" in CLP is its most important characteristic.
Loved the part when you said everytime you drive your vehicle in the garage, lift the wheels off the ground lol. So true, things get silly out there. I believe some people get too caught up overthinking this platform and there is way too much misinformation out there. Only springs I've ever had an issue with was those damn garage door opener springs that would always ONLY break / pop in the middle of the night!
I've seen many of the Smyth Buster's and your other videos, have enjoyed them all, and have learned a lot. I always chuckle at the sip from the coffee cups in unison at the end. Keep up the good work fellas. And thanks.
What ever you do, make it you SOP for everything you own. So when the time comes there is no question on what your actions are to get the platform ready to go.
100%. I store all of my off-body firearms loaded in condition 3. Nothing in the chamber but a loaded mag in and ready to go. Any accessible firearm not on my person needs only to be racked and it’s ready to go.
If you want a visual cue showing that your weapon is unloaded, instead of storing it with the bolt locked back, just use a chamber flag. They are usually high vis colors and with that inserted it shows there is no round in the chamber.
I have always stored rifles bolt home, hammer down on an empty chamber, dust cover closed. To my mind it keeps the oils on the rails in place, and the dust or other contaminates out. I wondered more about the strain on the bolt catch for LONG term storage, more than the springs...but that was just me. I have always thought that relieving as much tension on the springs for long term storage was not a bad thing, but it was more knowing the condition of each rifle and having a standard practice that made more sense to me. Good info as always
I used the M16/AR15 platform professionally for 40 years, 20 as an Army Infantryman and 20 as a police officer. I store my home defense AR "Cruiser Ready". Magazine inserted, bolt closed on an empty chamber safety on. All you need to do to be ready to use the weapon is pick it up and run the charging handle. The myths about springs will never die. During my time in the Army if an inspector found a weapon in the rack that was cocked (they used to randomly press triggers when inspecting the arms room) it would cause the armorer to fail. The rational was saving the hammer springs. I had friends from the USMC who told me that wasn't a gig for them.
My department had colt 6520s. The senior arms guy at my station insisted that the bolts be locked open on our colts and our 11/87s. When I got transferred there I took over the arms locker. Out of 4 colts 2 had recoil springs that had developed a set 3/4 of an inch shorter and the 11/87s which were seldom used had 3 out of eight that the recoil spring was so bad you could visibly see and hear the bolt was slower. Short term bolt open no effect long term as in months and or years yep it will screw up the spring. Saw Same on a beretta 96d
@@user-wt9il2xl4g bro I did not critique Paul, I said he has said these sort of folks are out there, who worry and come up with these scenarios just to panic over them.
I can’t believe this is the first time that I have watched this channel. I’ve had so many questions about my weapons and would ask and get numerous answers and walk away more confused than I was before I asked. I’ll be back .
Like James said, I always remember handing my rifle to the armorer, he did a functions check, put the selector switch on fire, pulled the trigger, and put it on the rack. I remember thinking that storing it that way took the tension off of the firing pin, not the recoil spring.
I was an armorer, and one of the division edicts (forty years ago) was, “M16 shall be stored in racks with bolt locked to the rear, muzzle cap stored in the “A” of the front sight”. Their reasoning was air circulation, and it was superseded a few months later.
Imagine how startling it would be if in the dead of night one of the rifles in your safe/cabinet slid over a smidge, bumped into the AR and slammed the bolt foward on it. 🤣🤣🤣
No sir, the spring is not "always under tension". It is under compression. "Tension" describes stretching the spring - the opposite of compressing it. Sorry for being *that* guy, but when talking about technical aspects, it's important to understand the nomenclature. As always, thanks for sharing. Steve
Feel like the obvious point to make is that bolt locked to the rear is still significantly less compression of the buffer spring than the spring is made to handle, when the bolt comes back fast enough during operation to "throw" the buffer rearward and further compress the buffer spring. Anyway, thanks for the video, Steve and Caleb!
the spring is only compressed for like half a second when the gun is cycling. if you leave it locked to the rear for long term storage it may damage it. then again bear in mind that 80 year old ww2 guns found in armories with the hammer cocked still fired after decades of storage.
@@Slava_Ukraini1991 It's not the duration that matters, it's the amount of compression. A tenth of a second of 101% safe compression is more harmful than fifty years of 25% compression. What matters most about spring wear is number of cycles; next most important is how close to 100% maximum compression you get. Time spent stationary and compressed matters not at all.
Today I learned that mortaring the rifle is a really cool way to release the bolt. This is another video that would been better with data instead of just assertions.
Yall should do one next on the "sniper button" myth. Its about how some think holding the FA during firing turns an AR into a bolt action! I'd love to see it tested also lol
@jason200912 I'm genuinely curious. I guess most of the pressure spike is contained by the bolts lugs until its unlocked and begins the travel rearward. That by then is technically soft enough that the spring and buffer are enough to absorb. So we're not talking full power like the FA would be holding back all the force of the round going off. But still enough to yeah cause some sort of damage at least. So my guess would be it will likely bend or shear the FA claw to some degree. At least over time it will. Just inpescted the claw on my Noveske build and it's pretty robust. It's likely pretty strong enough to eat up the serrations on the bolt. So it's possible. Supposedly in Afghanistan and places near it, it's a thing they do. Not sure how they got the idea. They call it the sniper button tho for real lol. I'm guessing they do it enough that's it's repeatable to some degree enough that it's a thing there. So maybe it don't harm much right away? Whatever the case tho it makes a shooter have to pause and reload manually. So maybe the US military dropped some bogus leaflets over them so the enemy reads it and thinks it's a thing and causes them to not only be slower snipers with ARs, but also causes them to tear thier shit up as they do so lol. I wonder how much it affects a shooters accuracy also if they're having to press that while shooting lol. So yeah it may phuk up thier aiming also, which may be another reason why to start the myth too lol. Who knows really. But yeah whoever does the video first showing it will get lots of views from people who are curious also too. Even if these guys talk about and don't do a demo it may still get tons of views. I'd watch it for sure. I'd test it myself but... all my guns I own now cost too dam much lol. The rich YT gun channels tho love to destroy nice stuff. So this will be right up thier alley for big views. So hopefully some read this and we'll see!
@@hughgrection3052 It became a thing because the people doing that are used to shooting more traditional stocked rifles, and having their thumb on the outside/thumb on right side of stock, while shooting right handed. It's comfortable for that kind of setup and even for AR's at times. The forward assist just happens to be in a spot that is pretty comfortable to rest that thumb as well, and even has some springiness to provide some tension. The accuracy effect is really just them being more comfortable shooting that way. So for them, more accurate in their shooting, but the rifle's accuracy isn't effected at all.
Hey Steve and Caleb, I've got a good friend who stores his rifles muzzle break down in his safe! I've never seen anyone do that and it drives me BONKERS everytime I see it. I've always seen EVERYONE store their firearms with the muzzle end up" sitting on the stock"!! Yall should do a video on how to properly store a rifle!
Springs actually wear out from BOTH, cycling probably more so though. Keeping them compressed for a long time causes ‘creep’ where constant stress causes the metal to slowly deform however modern high quality alloys resist this to a larger degree. This can lead to reduced tension overtime
Only reason I could think is that people don't want to store with a round in the chamber, but also don't want to have to manually operate the charging handle to load a round. However, that just screams half-hearted methods to me. You either want to be locked and loaded ready to go, or you don't. There isn't going to be any significant reaction time difference between charging the bolt as you pick up the rifle and picking up the rifle to then hit the bolt release switch. Both are going to give clear audible indication of where you are and what you are doing, so it isn't a tactics thing.
In humid Florida I have had AR bolt lugs rust into the extension over weeks or longer in storage. I usually use some sort of chamber flag to keep the bolt lugs and extension from being locked. Only takes a tiny amount of rust between the lugs and extension to mess up your morning.
I live in Florida too. I keep my rifles and shotgun rack safe, but I also pull them out every couple of weeks to check them and re-lube as necessary. No frozen bolt lugs..
You glossed over it but the argument of do you keep your car on jack stands to relieve the tension is a very good argument. The only downside is if someone figured out the metal compounds were low grade and led to premature metal fatigue.
I keep my guns under lock and key in a custom glass cabinet I had built into our closet, so I'll store them without a magazine, bolt & dust cover closed. If I'm shooting every week and keeping the guns in my bags/cases for more frequent use, I'll leave it with bolt open, cover open. Just depends, but I never thought of holding it open as a 'bad' thing, but I could see how new people to the hobby can be led to believe that. As you nicely pointed out, same with mags. Many parts on a gun are meant to be used and replaced, springs being just 1 of them! Good video.
Don't know if you've made a video on mortaring an AR but I think that'd be a good one. Explaining pros and cons on doing it. One con would be charging handle breaking.
Don't usually comment but figured I might be able to help here. The idea behind mortaring is that you use the inertia of the bolt to move it backwards and hopefully eject the stuck case/round. This is in addition to the standard amount of force you are applying to the charging handle. In other words you are not applying any more force to the charging handle than if you were attempting to pull it back without mortaring. So no the charging handle is not at a higher risk of breaking.
@@pgeorg01 buddy of mine did it and somehow it snapped. Murphy's law at work. He got chewed out and because of it we weren't allowed to do it. The majority of us wouldn't do it but higher didn't like it.
@@wtfserpico could be. I would never store my rifles like that (not saying it is wrong, just never occurred to me) so I never thought through all the details. I wouldn't want some chunky spider to take up residence in it or something, so I want all the ports closed. of course when you take it out of storage, you likely would clean it and lube it, so probably not even that much of an issue (unless a chunky spider runs up your arm or something) 😱
@@theoverunderthinker With all of the quirks and opinions in the gun community it's not really a stretch to think someone might actually recommend that.
First it was the magazine spring, then the buffer spring. Next we will need to store it with the hammer down so it's spring can rest... These are good Spring time discussions.
I leave my home defense AR locked back with a full mag, safety off. That way if I ever need to use it, I can just grab it, slap the catch, and shoot. And if I want to take it out or clean it, I can just take the mag out, and now the gun is fully clear. It's my preferred staging setup.
Agreed on the dust cover being open. For the magwell, rubber band or paper tape around a lintfree cloth (e.g. blue shop towel or electronics cloth wipe) at the base; easy to remove and keeps dust out. Same thing for the muzzle. Then again, mine is always kept in a range bag to keep dust and pet hair off/out of it.
@@ShimrraJamaane I’m of the philosophy that your guns should be loaded and ready to use if that occasion arises. But in a long term storage situation I’d probably consider something like that.
@@tmartin3151 I keep my mags loaded: one set of 3x 300 BLK, a set of 3x 5.56 SP, and a set of 12x 5.56 M855. The firearms stay covered near those mags. I can have either of the two primary weapons ready to fire in a few seconds. The pistol is always fully loaded with a compact mag (as it is also my CCW), and 4 full standard mags on standby (all Hornady Critical Duty .40).
If you have an AR that is new or it has a new spring, locking the bolt back for a week will help if the rifle is short cycling. You can test this like I did by having two new springs that are the same length then put one in a rifle and lock it back for a week. It will be shorter when you take it out. This is called (taking a set) the spring will relax a bit but only to a point then it will stay there for years and not keep getting shorter. Your AR should kick the empty brass 90 degrees to the side or even a bit to the rear. If the brass is flipping forward like on an AK, just lock the bolt back until the next time you go shooting and it should fine. I hope this helps, I've been doing it for decades. By the way, I bought my first AR in 1976.
I just bought my first AR last week. It sits stored inside its bag with a cable lock through an open bolt. I really don't know if it damages it but i feel like it would be safer having the cable lock resting freely rather than with pressure on the lock with a bcg pushing on it.
Guy's like "James" let's you continue to give us great videos. I love your videos. After this video it makes me wonder if I should leave my truck door open in the garage when I'm done for the day.
If you’re going to have it loaded have it loaded. If you’re going to have it unloaded, then have it unloaded. Wow… my mind is blown with such insights.
I tried telling the armorer at one of my depts that it was the cycling that wore out out mag springs, it keeping rds in them and was basically told it wasn’t true and the ppl still had to load their shit up before shift. Good ole navy.
I don’t store mine that way because I don’t want the bolt & chamber getting kornhole hair from my cat all in there. It’s the same reason you wouldn’t crack an engine open, and store it that way.
People tend to really overthink these assembly line production, average, AR platform rifles. I store mine in my locked tool box on the bed of my 87 GMC 1500. Sits in between the bailing wire and the tow chain and come along. Works every time too.
2:29 same apples for the car springs, when its just sitting there it’s under a little bit of tension. Leave the trunk full of cement and see what happens to those springs.
Nothing will happen to those springs until you drive on them with your trunk full of cement. All multi-cylinder piston engines have at least one valve spring fully compressed when not running. Planes and automobiles have sat up for DECADES without damaging the valves springs. Springs wear out from cycling, not being left compressed.
For anyone who wants to store an AR platform rifle with a loaded mag: I'd argue that it'd be a good idea to take a couple of rounds out of the mag. When you push a fully loaded magazine into a gun with the bolt in battery your top round in the mag is making contact with the bolt and further compressing the magazine spring. When fully loaded with 30rds and placed in the gun you're pretty much bottoming the spring out on the disassembly plate of the mag. At least I've found this to be true with my Colt M16 style rifle.
compression springs are typically the most robust spring, when treated properly. An improperly treated compression spring can loose its compression strength over time.
Given modern springs I don’t see any problem with this, but why would you store your AR with the bolt to the rear? If you’re concerned about it being loaded out an empty chamber indicator in it.
Me seeing this after replacing the springs in my truck lol. If I’m on the range, I keep the bolt locked back, if I’m in a dusty area, bolt close and dust cover closed. Guns in my safe, only closed dust cover closed, just my preference
If anyone is worried about ruining their springs retention, just get a Geissele Super42 spring thats made out of piano sting and is known not to lose retention
@@msw5224 I don't believe in pianos or bees they are religious constructs in order to decieve people into believing music can come from a box and that there are things in nature capable of flight all which are false inventions of capitalism according to Carla marx formerly known as Karl Marx.......
I live in a country where you can own an AR-15, you can have it for self/home defense, but you aren't allowed to store it loaded, and you are only allowed to have 10 round magazines or smaller for defensive purposes. The magazine that came with my rifle can not be inserted with the bolt forward when loaded to capacity, so I was wondering whether it would be best for me to store the rifle with the bolt locked back so that small as that magazine is, I can at least keep it loaded to capacity without having to worry about locking the bolt back before inserting the magazine. Going to do it that way from now on.
The "Magazine Storage" video we are referring to- ua-cam.com/video/MgLxVqN9chY/v-deo.html
So is storing it with the bolt open the same as storing your pistol with the slide back? Lol
"Springs wear out through cycling"
Again with this nonsense.
CREEP DEFORMATION
Do you reject the entire field of material science, or are you just willfully ignorant.
I would like to know what the most accurate barrel is for the AR-10 , LR-308 or what ever you call it for the 308 Winchester.
@@tacticalrabbit308 well ar10 and lr308 are different receivers. You should study some more. Barrels are the same.
@@NosferatuandFriends Don't be rude.
I disassemble my arms after each use, melt them down to ingots and then reforge my arms when I need them again.
Living by Eugene Stoner's original maintenance directions I see
The only way to be sure! 👍
You store them as ingots vs restoring them to ore? Reckless laziness, SMH.
@@danirizary6926 You are 100% correct. I should return them back to the earth and smelt them! lol
Too time consuming. I toss 'em and buy a new one for each use.
In my neighborhood, other people will store your car on blocks for you...
What nice people. Great area to be.
@@lifehacksformen8427 also a good reason to own an AR.
Do you live near Atlanta too? LOL
Awh how thoughtful, maybe they’ll even take the tires off so they won’t get too worn out from being in the elements
lol
Paul Harrell's jacket, Massad Ayoob's rug and Caleb's hair gel are national treasures.
I have never seen a comment about the rug... I just tought it was one of those things better not mentioned. I wish you well and know you have no thoughts of suicide. (just kidding)
@@EDKguy You have spoken truth, my friend!
😂😂👍
Massad ayoob's rug? Unfamiliar..
@@jthrelf Don't worry. Someone will be along shortly to explain.
If it's that much of a concern, use a chamber flag...
Bingo!
Was just gonna say that 😆
I use chamber flags for just that reason.
But it isnt.
Amen!
The spring is always under compression not tension.
I love you
Til your kid finds a spare and starts playing with it like a slinky...
Actually the spring is under neither tension nor compression. It's a torsion spring. It reacts load only via twisting. The very long very long torsion spring is then coiled into a shape that is useful (cylinder). Cheap springs will sack when under continuous load for long periods of time because of creep, but that isn't an issue in properly design springs.
As a military Armorer, I was taught to store "Rack Safe", bolt forward, ejection port cover closed, safety on semi and hammer fired. This was not to prevent mythical damage to springs, it was to prevent anything else from happening. If the bolt is already closed, it can't slam closed because the rack gets jarred or bumped. If the hammer is already down, it can't fall for any reason.
You mentioned if storing in a vehicle. First of all, that's a good way to lose a gun so don't, but again, any bump or jarring of the weapon could cause the bolt to fall or hammer to fall. Rack safe is the safest way to transport. If the rifle is to be a defensive arm in the truck, carry it "Patrol Ready." That is bolt closed on an empty chamber and a loaded magazine installed.
Just a technical note: The springs in question are Compression Springs and are under compression, not tension. A tension spring is like the spring used to hold a screen door closed, it's a spring that pulls. A compression spring Pushes.
You can have your ar on safety while the bolt is charged. Even if you bump the bolt release and load a round, you should still be on safety and still finger off the trigger and still pointed in a sage direction. It's perfectly safe unless youre not
Thank you sir for your service and thank you for confirming what I felt was a common sense method to store my ARs in my safe.
Didn’t even occur to me that people would do anything else.
I know that it may be common knowledge to some people, but if not sure - ask!! There's no stupid questions ... Especially for the new to owning people! Great job on your explanation! Love y'all! Please keep up the great job! Thank You!
This is the first time I've heard of storing a rifle with the bolt open. When I think 'storage', though, I think of in the rack or safe for an extended period. There's also 'condition 2' [edit] or 'half loaded' for bolt closed on empty chamber with mag inserted
My only experience with this was in a workshop, where the owner had everything racked open, after a couple mishaps. IDK why he didn't do chamber flags.
For “condition 3”, there is no magazine inserted. Bolt closed, empty chamber with mag inserted is “condition 2”
I've heard LEO's refer to condition 2 as "cruiser ready"
they made us do it at times in the Army. I stopped complying the first time it bumped closed. They'd tell people to lock them open to put them in the racks, but in the process of putting them in the racks, the bolt would close, either due to slight shock or due to bumping the catch.
absolutely stupid.
I.E.
With a fully loaded magazine, safety on and the bolt closed, no round in the chamber!! Locked, not cocked, and ready to rock.👍💯
That whole putting your car on blocks every night is a great point!
Great series gentlemen..
hey to James 🙆
No it isn't. Car suspension isn't fully compressed in your garage.
Yeah but, you'll get flat spots on tires stored for long periods. Plus, even gun makers when you report stiff springs on guns they make they'll tell you to leave the mag loaded, or store the gun with the slide back to alleviate the issue. So... are both of those busted aslo?
@@NosferatuandFriends But it is compressed.
@@CalebSavant Yes.
There is a difference between the spring's intended resting point and it's maximum intended compression.
It's fine to say that spring creep likely won't be an issue in properly engineered firearms because of the wide safety margins.
What you're saying is that it doesn't exist at all which is demonstrably false.
There's plenty of old guns and mags left in the closet that malfunction after sitting compressed for years.
Maybe just install a chamber flag. You can visually see it's empty, plus this would eliminate dropping the bolt unintentionally.
exactly.
Makes too much sense and a rule to follow. I'd do that instead. Last time I checked springs are made of "metals" and metals do "relax" over time of changing temperatures. so YES it will damage the spring. The alignment of metal particles will change under pressure and temperature changes. I would much prefer PROOF and tests that SHOW the results instead of blindly accepting Brownells word for it. That's no different than believing the so called "MYTH". Unless there is scientific evidence through testing then why should we accept their word for it?
It's a great but often-forgotten tool for sure!
Why should you care if you drop the bolt?
Bump your rifle butt on the ground. Bolt will drop and load a round if you have a mag in it.
I have a HK MP5SD that I purchased about 35 years ago and also have a magazine that has been loaded and sitting for 35 years. Back in the late 1980s, there was this same discussion, so I loaded a magazine and put in storage to test the theory at a later date. One of these days I will do a full-auto magazine dump to put the issue to rest permanently.
I am retired from working in the electric power generation field and I have seen springs the size of a 55 gallon drum that are under tremendous pressure for decades without failure.
People don't understand metallurgy or engineering. It's sad but these pearls of wisdom are cast before ignorant, superstitious swine and you're more likely to get a dozen arguments from video game players who watch UA-cam idiots for all their information than a single person actually looking to learn something.
If you take the magazine out of your gun and manually remove all of the rounds from it, you will notice that as you get to the bottom of the magazine, when there are only one or two rounds left in it, there will be barely any pressure from the follower. Storing a mag loaded, or any spring compressed for many years, shortens the overall length of the spring by a few percent. This makes the spring less effective as you get down to the last few rounds in the magazine. It isn't always enough of a pressure difference to cause a failure but sometimes it is. The more rounds stored in the magazine (fully loaded vs downloading by 1 or 2 rounds) also affects how much the spring is shortened. I'm not sure why people keep saying springs wear out from use, not from being compressed for many years, when compression is changing the overall length and affecting it in a different way... Glock magazines, when left fully loaded for 15 years will have almost zero follower pressure when you get down to the last one or two rounds in the magazine.
@@Rezolution01 What people are saying is this is negligible in the grand scheme of operating your platforms, and taking care of and maintaining your kit and gear necessitates you pay enough attention to replace springs and other parts when they need it, but doing this one action is not what is going to wholly negate the longevity of the parts.
@@Rezolution01no longer the case with modern spring steel. It’s the number of compressions that matter
You mean the same reason some say to keep your pistol slide locked back overnight to "loosen" it.
Next do an episode on how weather affects the lubricants on your rifle.
Good one
project farm did the best video on gunlube
Crisco
@Richard Cranium I know but I want one from brownell's
@@RichardCranium321 I don't think it's the "best". He seemed most concerned with lubricity, which I think was an error. Any firearm that NEEDS lubrication to function will jam after it fires enough to blow the lubricant out. The "P" in CLP is its most important characteristic.
Loved the part when you said everytime you drive your vehicle in the garage, lift the wheels off the ground lol. So true, things get silly out there. I believe some people get too caught up overthinking this platform and there is way too much misinformation out there. Only springs I've ever had an issue with was those damn garage door opener springs that would always ONLY break / pop in the middle of the night!
I mean the comparison is silly. Springs on vehicles were designed to have resting loads on them while buffer springs weren't.
@@yodaddy82daddy70 All springs are made to have loads thats why they springs lol
@yodaddy82daddy70 You must be joking. /s right? Lol.
Funny one.
I've seen many of the Smyth Buster's and your other videos, have enjoyed them all, and have learned a lot. I always chuckle at the sip from the coffee cups in unison at the end. Keep up the good work fellas. And thanks.
What ever you do, make it you SOP for everything you own. So when the time comes there is no question on what your actions are to get the platform ready to go.
My SOP...grab a mag,slap it in,rack that sucker and rock n roll 😊
Yes.
This is by far the most important thing
Sound advice
100%. I store all of my off-body firearms loaded in condition 3. Nothing in the chamber but a loaded mag in and ready to go. Any accessible firearm not on my person needs only to be racked and it’s ready to go.
Could you do a myth buster episode on the length of time spent on Caleb's hair regime. 🤣 wish I still had hair to practice it on.
Bondo!
Pretty sure it's injection molded.
It's put on every morning like Darth Vader helmet in episode 4
CLP
I seriously wouldn't doubt if it was CLP 😂
If you want a visual cue showing that your weapon is unloaded, instead of storing it with the bolt locked back, just use a chamber flag. They are usually high vis colors and with that inserted it shows there is no round in the chamber.
I have always stored rifles bolt home, hammer down on an empty chamber, dust cover closed. To my mind it keeps the oils on the rails in place, and the dust or other contaminates out. I wondered more about the strain on the bolt catch for LONG term storage, more than the springs...but that was just me. I have always thought that relieving as much tension on the springs for long term storage was not a bad thing, but it was more knowing the condition of each rifle and having a standard practice that made more sense to me. Good info as always
👌🏽
I used the M16/AR15 platform professionally for 40 years, 20 as an Army Infantryman and 20 as a police officer. I store my home defense AR "Cruiser Ready". Magazine inserted, bolt closed on an empty chamber safety on. All you need to do to be ready to use the weapon is pick it up and run the charging handle. The myths about springs will never die. During my time in the Army if an inspector found a weapon in the rack that was cocked (they used to randomly press triggers when inspecting the arms room) it would cause the armorer to fail. The rational was saving the hammer springs. I had friends from the USMC who told me that wasn't a gig for them.
My department had colt 6520s. The senior arms guy at my station insisted that the bolts be locked open on our colts and our 11/87s. When I got transferred there I took over the arms locker. Out of 4 colts 2 had recoil springs that had developed a set 3/4 of an inch shorter and the 11/87s which were seldom used had 3 out of eight that the recoil spring was so bad you could visibly see and hear the bolt was slower.
Short term bolt open no effect long term as in months and or years yep it will screw up the spring. Saw Same on a beretta 96d
I can only imagine you two calling on every ounce of will to not crack up laughing on camera when discussing these myths...
As Paul Harell has said these sort of folks are called the "What if brigade" we will always have a plethora of scenarios like this one
NOT the same at all. Paul Harell is what you would call a professional.
@@user-wt9il2xl4g
I tried doing some the things he does, at home.
I couldn’t.
@@user-wt9il2xl4g Which is why I don't try this at home. Paul's jacket Massad Ayoob's rug and Caleb's hair gel are national treasures.
@@kodoan411 Indeed!
@@user-wt9il2xl4g bro I did not critique Paul, I said he has said these sort of folks are out there, who worry and come up with these scenarios just to panic over them.
Perfect timing. I inadvertently did this two weeks ago and couldn’t wait to close the bolt it bothered me so much
I can’t believe this is the first time that I have watched this channel. I’ve had so many questions about my weapons and would ask and get numerous answers and walk away more confused than I was before I asked. I’ll be back .
I simply disassemble the entire weapon to make sure ALL of those springs get the maximum service life.
😆
While no harm will occur by leaving the bolt open, it is better to leave closed with the dust cover closed. This is because this keeps dust out.
The dust cover can close with the bolt locked open. Probably won't encounter much dust in storage anyway.
You can open the bolt and close the dust cover … Genus .
@@panchopistola8298 Who's Genus? Kingdom Phylum and Class's brother?
@@michaelgomez3044 I’m just worried my family will think I’m a slut .
I just put up a Dust Free Zone sign in my safe.
3:34 "The weapon has fired" 😂 (totally unrelated video) 😂
I saw that clown too....
I thoght about the same thing
"Grandmaster J"
"This here is my bullpup..."
IYKYK 🤣
Guns is the safe are unloaded. Guns anywhere else... loaded. Very easy to remember that way.
Thanks for this video, this is my preferred storage. Makes for an easy check and they’re ready for the range.
I don’t even wait anymore. I hit like as soon as I begin watching any Smyth Busters video.
Well! Stupid is as Stupid does!
You guys are awesome and glad you brought back SMYTH BUSTERS
It's your gun, store it how you want to. In any case, the springs will be in compression... not tension.
You should open up your engine and release the valve springs every time you park it.
Like James said, I always remember handing my rifle to the armorer, he did a functions check, put the selector switch on fire, pulled the trigger, and put it on the rack. I remember thinking that storing it that way took the tension off of the firing pin, not the recoil spring.
Most people have and can identify with an AR-15 that is why we want more AR vids.
I was an armorer, and one of the division edicts (forty years ago) was, “M16 shall be stored in racks with bolt locked to the rear, muzzle cap stored in the “A” of the front sight”. Their reasoning was air circulation, and it was superseded a few months later.
Enjoyed the Magazine saga reference. Best season.
Cycling the springs, wears them out much faster than being under tension. It's really more about the number of cycles (and quality of spring)
Imagine how startling it would be if in the dead of night one of the rifles in your safe/cabinet slid over a smidge, bumped into the AR and slammed the bolt foward on it.
🤣🤣🤣
No sir, the spring is not "always under tension". It is under compression. "Tension" describes stretching the spring - the opposite of compressing it. Sorry for being *that* guy, but when talking about technical aspects, it's important to understand the nomenclature.
As always, thanks for sharing.
Steve
Oh kaka !!! Not synchronized coffee cup sipping ! Can't have it!
Feel like the obvious point to make is that bolt locked to the rear is still significantly less compression of the buffer spring than the spring is made to handle, when the bolt comes back fast enough during operation to "throw" the buffer rearward and further compress the buffer spring.
Anyway, thanks for the video, Steve and Caleb!
the spring is only compressed for like half a second when the gun is cycling. if you leave it locked to the rear for long term storage it may damage it. then again bear in mind that 80 year old ww2 guns found in armories with the hammer cocked still fired after decades of storage.
@@Slava_Ukraini1991 It's not the duration that matters, it's the amount of compression. A tenth of a second of 101% safe compression is more harmful than fifty years of 25% compression.
What matters most about spring wear is number of cycles; next most important is how close to 100% maximum compression you get. Time spent stationary and compressed matters not at all.
@@Slava_Ukraini1991 did you not watch the video?
Today I learned that mortaring the rifle is a really cool way to release the bolt.
This is another video that would been better with data instead of just assertions.
Such a good father and son team
Picky I know, but the bolt recoil spring is not under tension. It's under compression.
Yall should do one next on the "sniper button" myth. Its about how some think holding the FA during firing turns an AR into a bolt action! I'd love to see it tested also lol
Hmmm
@US2A_ARMS yeah. Ikr. Scared to try it myself. But yeah it's a thing. Put what looks like a button there and dumb people will misuse it eventually
I'm gonna guess it can cause your forward assist to break off and scratch the bcg?
@jason200912 I'm genuinely curious. I guess most of the pressure spike is contained by the bolts lugs until its unlocked and begins the travel rearward. That by then is technically soft enough that the spring and buffer are enough to absorb. So we're not talking full power like the FA would be holding back all the force of the round going off. But still enough to yeah cause some sort of damage at least.
So my guess would be it will likely bend or shear the FA claw to some degree. At least over time it will. Just inpescted the claw on my Noveske build and it's pretty robust. It's likely pretty strong enough to eat up the serrations on the bolt. So it's possible.
Supposedly in Afghanistan and places near it, it's a thing they do. Not sure how they got the idea. They call it the sniper button tho for real lol. I'm guessing they do it enough that's it's repeatable to some degree enough that it's a thing there. So maybe it don't harm much right away?
Whatever the case tho it makes a shooter have to pause and reload manually. So maybe the US military dropped some bogus leaflets over them so the enemy reads it and thinks it's a thing and causes them to not only be slower snipers with ARs, but also causes them to tear thier shit up as they do so lol.
I wonder how much it affects a shooters accuracy also if they're having to press that while shooting lol. So yeah it may phuk up thier aiming also, which may be another reason why to start the myth too lol. Who knows really. But yeah whoever does the video first showing it will get lots of views from people who are curious also too. Even if these guys talk about and don't do a demo it may still get tons of views. I'd watch it for sure.
I'd test it myself but... all my guns I own now cost too dam much lol. The rich YT gun channels tho love to destroy nice stuff. So this will be right up thier alley for big views. So hopefully some read this and we'll see!
@@hughgrection3052 It became a thing because the people doing that are used to shooting more traditional stocked rifles, and having their thumb on the outside/thumb on right side of stock, while shooting right handed. It's comfortable for that kind of setup and even for AR's at times. The forward assist just happens to be in a spot that is pretty comfortable to rest that thumb as well, and even has some springiness to provide some tension.
The accuracy effect is really just them being more comfortable shooting that way. So for them, more accurate in their shooting, but the rifle's accuracy isn't effected at all.
Steve, always straight to the point. I like it.
Do you recommend remove all springs & loosen all the screws for storage, to relieve tension?
GREAT ! Especially for the locking systems such as th ARm15 ! Awesome! Thank you.
Well done!
Hey Steve and Caleb, I've got a good friend who stores his rifles muzzle break down in his safe! I've never seen anyone do that and it drives me BONKERS everytime I see it. I've always seen EVERYONE store their firearms with the muzzle end up" sitting on the stock"!! Yall should do a video on how to properly store a rifle!
Actually that is kind of smart. I do that right after I clean a gun. If there’s excess oil on it
... it will run down instead of into the internals or soak into the stock
Nooooooo!!!!! Not upside down you'll warp the rodsponder and it'll vibrate out of timing and then the kick stand won't close properly......
Springs actually wear out from BOTH, cycling probably more so though. Keeping them compressed for a long time causes ‘creep’ where constant stress causes the metal to slowly deform however modern high quality alloys resist this to a larger degree. This can lead to reduced tension overtime
The better question is.... Why would anyone want to store the rifle with the bolt locked back?
Only reason I could think is that people don't want to store with a round in the chamber, but also don't want to have to manually operate the charging handle to load a round. However, that just screams half-hearted methods to me. You either want to be locked and loaded ready to go, or you don't. There isn't going to be any significant reaction time difference between charging the bolt as you pick up the rifle and picking up the rifle to then hit the bolt release switch. Both are going to give clear audible indication of where you are and what you are doing, so it isn't a tactics thing.
thank you both
I bought a silent capture spring, it made the operation of my AR ten times better
In humid Florida I have had AR bolt lugs rust into the extension over weeks or longer in storage. I usually use some sort of chamber flag to keep the bolt lugs and extension from being locked. Only takes a tiny amount of rust between the lugs and extension to mess up your morning.
I live in Florida too. I keep my rifles and shotgun rack safe, but I also pull them out every couple of weeks to check them and re-lube as necessary. No frozen bolt lugs..
googled this very question. glad it's answered!
Great points, thanks for sharing.
Now do the myth that 22LR "bounces inside a .223 / 5.56 barrel" when using drop in 22 conversion kits causing MOB (minutes of barn) accuracy.
Sounds like a loaded question 😂
Lmfao " hard to argue with that " I love these guys!
You glossed over it but the argument of do you keep your car on jack stands to relieve the tension is a very good argument. The only downside is if someone figured out the metal compounds were low grade and led to premature metal fatigue.
Excellent, excellent as always, Caleb you are good thanks a lot for the info
I keep my guns under lock and key in a custom glass cabinet I had built into our closet, so I'll store them without a magazine, bolt & dust cover closed. If I'm shooting every week and keeping the guns in my bags/cases for more frequent use, I'll leave it with bolt open, cover open. Just depends, but I never thought of holding it open as a 'bad' thing, but I could see how new people to the hobby can be led to believe that. As you nicely pointed out, same with mags. Many parts on a gun are meant to be used and replaced, springs being just 1 of them! Good video.
Regan Ohen,
"...under lock and key..." and "...custom glass cabinet..." are oxymorons
A small hammer will " unlock" glass . . .
@@fjb4932 except that it's just to prevent my 18 month old son from getting in there... so, try again clown shoes :)
Don't know if you've made a video on mortaring an AR but I think that'd be a good one. Explaining pros and cons on doing it. One con would be charging handle breaking.
Don't usually comment but figured I might be able to help here. The idea behind mortaring is that you use the inertia of the bolt to move it backwards and hopefully eject the stuck case/round. This is in addition to the standard amount of force you are applying to the charging handle.
In other words you are not applying any more force to the charging handle than if you were attempting to pull it back without mortaring. So no the charging handle is not at a higher risk of breaking.
@@pgeorg01 buddy of mine did it and somehow it snapped. Murphy's law at work. He got chewed out and because of it we weren't allowed to do it. The majority of us wouldn't do it but higher didn't like it.
I broke a butt stick pin doing this....
I swear Eugene Stoner used magic and unicorns to make the AR-15. Why else there's so many myths about it?😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
A good reason to store with bolt back is to ensure airflow through the barrel. We do that often with suppressed rifles.
I like how it takes him forever to get to the point
I think you can get dirt/debris in your chamber if you do that, but not that concerned about the spring.
That's why you keep the dust cover taped over the chamber at all times with a double layer of duct tape!
@@wtfserpico could be. I would never store my rifles like that (not saying it is wrong, just never occurred to me) so I never thought through all the details. I wouldn't want some chunky spider to take up residence in it or something, so I want all the ports closed.
of course when you take it out of storage, you likely would clean it and lube it, so probably not even that much of an issue (unless a chunky spider runs up your arm or something)
😱
@@theoverunderthinker I was being sarcastic about the duct tape haha.
@@wtfserpico I thought that was possible, but decided that there are things I don't know, so maybe it was a thing.
🤷♂👍😊
@@theoverunderthinker With all of the quirks and opinions in the gun community it's not really a stretch to think someone might actually recommend that.
First it was the magazine spring, then the buffer spring. Next we will need to store it with the hammer down so it's spring can rest...
These are good Spring time discussions.
I leave my home defense AR locked back with a full mag, safety off. That way if I ever need to use it, I can just grab it, slap the catch, and shoot. And if I want to take it out or clean it, I can just take the mag out, and now the gun is fully clear. It's my preferred staging setup.
I’d be afraid of lint or dust getting into the chamber. Even with the dust cover closed I’d be afraid of something getting in through the mag well.
Agreed on the dust cover being open. For the magwell, rubber band or paper tape around a lintfree cloth (e.g. blue shop towel or electronics cloth wipe) at the base; easy to remove and keeps dust out. Same thing for the muzzle.
Then again, mine is always kept in a range bag to keep dust and pet hair off/out of it.
@@ShimrraJamaane I’m of the philosophy that your guns should be loaded and ready to use if that occasion arises. But in a long term storage situation I’d probably consider something like that.
@@tmartin3151 I keep my mags loaded: one set of 3x 300 BLK, a set of 3x 5.56 SP, and a set of 12x 5.56 M855. The firearms stay covered near those mags. I can have either of the two primary weapons ready to fire in a few seconds. The pistol is always fully loaded with a compact mag (as it is also my CCW), and 4 full standard mags on standby (all Hornady Critical Duty .40).
If you have an AR that is new or it has a new spring, locking the bolt back for a week will help if the rifle is short cycling. You can test this like I did by having two new springs that are the same length then put one in a rifle and lock it back for a week. It will be shorter when you take it out. This is called (taking a set) the spring will relax a bit but only to a point then it will stay there for years and not keep getting shorter. Your AR should kick the empty brass 90 degrees to the side or even a bit to the rear. If the brass is flipping forward like on an AK, just lock the bolt back until the next time you go shooting and it should fine. I hope this helps, I've been doing it for decades. By the way, I bought my first AR in 1976.
I believe springs wear from cycling not just compression. Same argument for storing loaded mags.
Ah, the notorious "slam fire." It can happen.
Good to know👍 I use a cable lock and keep mine stored mine with bolt back, no mag obviously. Good info, thank you
I just bought my first AR last week. It sits stored inside its bag with a cable lock through an open bolt. I really don't know if it damages it but i feel like it would be safer having the cable lock resting freely rather than with pressure on the lock with a bcg pushing on it.
Thank you fellas🤙
Guy's like "James" let's you continue to give us great videos. I love your videos. After this video it makes me wonder if I should leave my truck door open in the garage when I'm done for the day.
I'm continually amazed by the number of " myths " making the rounds concerning firearms. It's a machine, treat it like any other machine.
Nicely explained 👌 👏
If you’re going to have it loaded have it loaded. If you’re going to have it unloaded, then have it unloaded.
Wow… my mind is blown with such insights.
I've never heard of anyone doing this with any type of firearm. Sounds like a good way for debris to get inside.
Close the election port cover
@@WalterLitwinko or leave the bolt forward and ready to defend like a normal person.
I tried telling the armorer at one of my depts that it was the cycling that wore out out mag springs, it keeping rds in them and was basically told it wasn’t true and the ppl still had to load their shit up before shift. Good ole navy.
I don’t store mine that way because I don’t want the bolt & chamber getting kornhole hair from my cat all in there. It’s the same reason you wouldn’t crack an engine open, and store it that way.
I guess "We Destroy the Myth, Legend, Lore, and Lies" wouldn't be as catchy as Smyth Busters.
When the spring is compressed it is under compression. Tension would be if it was stretched out beyond its normal length at rest.
People tend to really overthink these assembly line production, average, AR platform rifles. I store mine in my locked tool box on the bed of my 87 GMC 1500. Sits in between the bailing wire and the tow chain and come along. Works every time too.
2:29 same apples for the car springs, when its just sitting there it’s under a little bit of tension. Leave the trunk full of cement and see what happens to those springs.
Nothing will happen to those springs until you drive on them with your trunk full of cement. All multi-cylinder piston engines have at least one valve spring fully compressed when not running. Planes and automobiles have sat up for DECADES without damaging the valves springs. Springs wear out from cycling, not being left compressed.
Oh how many arguments with armorers, followed up by the phrase "it's how we have always done it"
This is going to get good.
For anyone who wants to store an AR platform rifle with a loaded mag: I'd argue that it'd be a good idea to take a couple of rounds out of the mag. When you push a fully loaded magazine into a gun with the bolt in battery your top round in the mag is making contact with the bolt and further compressing the magazine spring. When fully loaded with 30rds and placed in the gun you're pretty much bottoming the spring out on the disassembly plate of the mag. At least I've found this to be true with my Colt M16 style rifle.
compression springs are typically the most robust spring, when treated properly. An improperly treated compression spring can loose its compression strength
over time.
Given modern springs I don’t see any problem with this, but why would you store your AR with the bolt to the rear? If you’re concerned about it being loaded out an empty chamber indicator in it.
Me seeing this after replacing the springs in my truck lol. If I’m on the range, I keep the bolt locked back, if I’m in a dusty area, bolt close and dust cover closed. Guns in my safe, only closed dust cover closed, just my preference
Start at 1:25
If anyone is worried about ruining their springs retention, just get a Geissele Super42 spring thats made out of piano sting and is known not to lose retention
Thank you!
@@jacobs2812 👍🏽🇺🇸
Piano sting ???? Is that anything like a bee string ????
@@southernfriedmike3263 Kind of...But it's made out of a piano instead of a bee...
@@msw5224 I don't believe in pianos or bees they are religious constructs in order to decieve people into believing music can come from a box and that there are things in nature capable of flight all which are false inventions of capitalism according to Carla marx formerly known as Karl Marx.......
Aw yes, Brownells asking the hard questions.
I live in a country where you can own an AR-15, you can have it for self/home defense, but you aren't allowed to store it loaded, and you are only allowed to have 10 round magazines or smaller for defensive purposes. The magazine that came with my rifle can not be inserted with the bolt forward when loaded to capacity, so I was wondering whether it would be best for me to store the rifle with the bolt locked back so that small as that magazine is, I can at least keep it loaded to capacity without having to worry about locking the bolt back before inserting the magazine.
Going to do it that way from now on.