Three Doofuses and a Baby - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Baby Arc Part 10
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Goku, Pan, and Trunks continue their escapades on M2 and beyond. Finding their way to Dr. Mu's planet, the heroes learn it's time to do the twist. Twist after twist after twist comes our way. What's Giru been doing? Twist. What's Trunks been doing? Twist. What's Dr. Mu been doing? Baby twist. What's Baby been doing? Mu twist. Try not to get whiplash in today's episode of Dragon Ball Dissection.
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/ mistarefusion
Trunks and Giru came up with this plan during the 10 year time gap between end of DB and start of GT. If you rewatch Trunks fighting during the 28th Budokai you will see the seeds of this being planted.
Trunks coming in with the preptime ı see.
Ah, can't wait for that to come up in Super.
Everyone knows Trunks is a time traveler and so everything makes perfect sense when factoring in his ability to send himself warnings from the future :-p
I'm so proud to be the 69th like on this beautiful comment.
@@dekufiremage7808 Oh my God lmao
Come on, you know the players can't do anything during cutscenes.
Just makes me think of the time Future Trunks at least tried to stop Cell from transforming into his perfect form in Z, he was quickly blasted back but it was still something..
@@moonraven6145 That was future Trunks who was far more pragmatic
@@sigilbreaker2628 Ah yeah, good point I was just thinking of an example of the trope where someone doesn't just stand there and let the villain transform/activate etc.
@@moonraven6145 Tokusatsu. Dude watches Power Rangers and Super Sentai as part of his job lol he knows the tropes.
@@xavierwalko4175 Good point xD.
Kinda surprising that the writers restrained themselves from sneaking in a twist revealing that Baby telepathically compelled Pilaf and his gang to unleash the Black Star Dragon Balls or something
Maybe they added that into the Dragon Ball GT Daizenshuu.
@@TheAzulmagiaò😊😊😊😊the 998ìi0009ftd😅798
Ngl that would be a significantly better twist than "Trunks always had a plan"
@@Clean.EastwoodHow would he know they exist? For that matter why doesn't Miyu have his machine mutants search the galaxy for the dragon balls anymore? It's like the story forgets about them once Baby enters the fray.
The whole "Baby created Myuu" thing gets even more stupid when the Good Doctor comes back from hell sooooooo...
It's funny how Mu is relevant, arguably moreso, after Baby is dead.
I mean, 19 came back too, and he was created by Gero.
I find it funny how despite the twists screwing with one another, if you chose to stick with Giru's betrayal and guilt and revealed later that he repented for his actions during the arc, you could've had your cake and ate it too, instead of having to come up with a "we planned it since the start!" handwave that self canibalizes the story it tries to preserve
Yes! This. Exactly.
If Baby made Mu, why did he give Mu a personality he dislikes?
I like those passive-aggressive correction citations on that poorly-written Wikipedia article.
So GT did the "Let's fight somewhere empty/goes to abandoned theater with failing movie" meme way before that was even a meme.
Gotta give em props for being so ahead of the curve
The most asinine part about Trunks and Gill's convoluted plan is that in episode 18 there's a scene where Trunks was carrying an unconscious Pan back to their ship, and he goes on to rage about how Gill "betrayed" them. Why would he need to keep up the supposed charade for an unconscious Pan?
He’s really into his in-character acting.
For all the stupid things this series has done I must say they could have an excuse for that "I had to keep the act convincing, you never know who's watching when you're on your enemy's planet"
Trunks knew the audience was watching so he had to keep acting
Method Acting
@@theradionicrevival8068beat me by 10 minutes
Amazing how we still somehow managed to get to Baby in a shorter time than Buu’s introduction took
@Frieza-yg4zp To be fair it's not that long. 22 episodes ain't a lot.
@Frieza-yg4zpconsidering this GT deep dive started in December I'd say he took his time.
@richborn6700 he started November 7th actually
@@ZeroX7649it ain’t a lot in terms of episode count, but in terms of content per episode, it certainly is. It’s hard to compare GT with the Dragon Ball manga, what with the different formats, and it’s also hard to compare it with Z, since Z was trying to very slowly adapt a written story while GT had nothing to adapt. But I think MistareFusion’s analysis is giving us a more accurate look at how much content there is in the Baby Saga. I’d wager if the Baby Saga was originally included in Toriyama’s manga and later adapted into the anime it would run as long as the Cell Saga.
@@jaybee27D He reviewed the manga so the anime pacing didn't factor into any of that.
"The Man Behind the Man" is a nice trope. But when it becomes "the man behind the man behind the man behind the man behind the man behind the man", you might have gone too far.
Oh the Naruto problem
This portion of GT is like a roundabout with no exit. All twist, no turn. A Shamylan classic
Shyamalan
A good writer lets characters personalities drive the plot.
A bad writer lets the plot drive character personalities.
Baby, in concept, is one of my favorite villains. A machine created to get revenge on the saiyans that destroyed the race that created Baby. I even like the big ball attack later on, kinda being an inverse to the spirit bomb, a revenge bomb. What happens later isn't nearly as grand as it could have been, but isn't as bad as some parts of GT.
It's funny that they did this plot twice
It’s strange. I love Baby Vegeta’s design, yet I’m mostly indifferent to his regular design before and after he takes over the heroes. It might be because of the contrast he brings to normal Vegeta, showcasing how much he’s forced his body to mutate into his liking.
Although once Lance suggested it, I got immediately curious what a matured Baby with a creepier misshapen aesthetic based on his first design would be like. Maybe he’d always be levitating, having proportions akin to a homunculus, and lidless eyes so he keeps his wide open stare no matter what emotion he’s feeling.
I don't dislike his later design either. It's just a shame we barely get to see baby's original creepiness in his design.
Like, it just fits his theme (including his music theme) so well. For me the most memorable part of him was actually the creepy eyes inside the pod, I'm glad it was mentioned in this review.
Well they are standing there and do nothing if something is happening, it is completely normal. Krillin (DBZA): We do do that a lot.
Considering what happens LATER IN THE ARC and the implications, I am surprised they decided to use "Trunks and Gill are in cahoots" than "Trunks somehow made it out and now is acting...strange". This arc had the biggest Twist Cake ever and they just settle on a 4.99$ Burger King spin combo instead.
When I was a kid, I thought Baby's baby form looked like Johnny Bravo, what with the sunglasses eyes, and the flesh pompadour.
There's that Baby guy!
Toriyama is known for writing his stories as he goes along, but this shit makes him look like Hirohiko Araki by comparison.
Honestly General Rilld / Rilldo's fight with Goku on M2 is probably among my favorite fights in this seires, such as his powers to turn everything into metal and them fighting in an abandon city is something that you don't really see that often in Dragon Ball. Glad to see that not all of the fights are in deserts and westlands.
Okay, I have to disagree with the whole thing not being planned out, because Trunks's plan unironically feels to me like one of the only instances in GT where the writers *did* plan things out from the very beginning. Rewatch the videogame scene from EP16, notice how Trunks's face is obscured while he talks to Giru, and Goku looks confused as to what he's talking about.
Trunks: "In situations like these, it's better to let your enemy think he's winning, so he'll bare his flowers to you." (Read: Let's pretend we got defeated, so we'll gain access to Mu's project)
Giru: "Baring flowers? Is he (Goku) supposed to be baring the flowers too?" (Read: Should we let Goku in?)
Later on, when everything is revealed, Goku, the only one who looked confused during that scene, says he suspected something was up. So yes, I definitely believe they planned Giru's betrayal to be Trunks's plan to unviel Baby from the very beginning. All the stupidity and inconsistencies that happen in-between these two plot points, well... It's Dragon Ball. Trunks is the son of Vegeta, the "Genius," after all.
To be clear, I don't think the writers didn't even know they were planning to have Giru's betrayal be fake. I would give them even that little credit. But it doesn't seem like they had any details planned out beyond that, either in how to follow it through or even as to how to properly tie it to the existing story.
I do have that exchange listed in my notes. I would say Trunks's comments to Giru about his video game strategies could be a metaphor the *story* is using to foreshadow future events. If so, good on you for catching it. I certainly didn't tie it together. I think that would work quite well in that context. I don't think, however, it's the *characters* speaking in code so their teammates don't understand or that it's spoken with any awareness of the prescience such an exchange would imply.
I wish the writers had the attention to detail you had sir, ı know it's a trend for people to say db writers are making stuff up as they go(probably because most of the time they are) but this really is a huge reach if you ask me.
@@MistareFusion Even if t hey are speaking in code, it begs the question...why? Why are Pan and Goku considered so untrustworthy to not be let in on this "plan". It relies on them losing on purpose, yet Goku is such a powerhouse he could annihilate a planet all by himself. How were they actually expecting him to lose if not on purpose? In the end he only even lost because Rilldo basically got lucky when Pan distracted Goku.
@@JotariGoku is an idiot who can't keep a secret and pan is too.
@@JotariThey’re worried Goku or Pan will accidentally blab to the villains, and then more enemies will be on the lookout for Trunks? Though that excuse barely worked with Polnareff in JoJo when they did the exact same twist, it certainly doesn’t work with Pan. It’s blatantly labeling the POV character as the biggest moron of all time for the sole purpose of making things surprising for the audience.
That billboard Goku is hiding in front of during the 2:37 mark has an Easter Egg of Erdrick from Dragon Quest 3.
We know Baby used to be a Tsufurian, so maybe, what he means is that he created Dr. Mu while he was still a tsufurian. Then he died, and Dr. Mu later resurrected him as Baby.
I think it's more like that Baby didn't had a proper physical form, he could create one for him, but he would want a powerful one, so he created Mu so Mu could help create a more powerful form for Baby, is kinda like, Gero created Android 19, and Android 19 created Gero cybernetic body. but in a more convoluted way.
Baby was created by the king's dna, he is a machine mutant tsufurian, he wasn't a normal person ever.
Baby was never a tsufurian. He was made as neo machine mutant with DNA of tsufurians.
He isn’t a Tsufruian. He was a Machine Mutant with the DNA of King Tsufru.
Last time I tried rewatching GT I didn't even make it this far and oh my god is this even dumber than I remember. Twist after twist with no hope of any meaningful resolution because you planned nothing is my biggest peeve. It's an act of constant motion to distract you and the only way it can possibly conclude is everything crashing.
Anyway, gotta give Baby points for creativity. Freeza's plan for resurrection didn't involve any hip-hop dance troupes or doll obsessed perverts.
Da baby! Let's going! Gotta love him!
Remember when future trunks constantly attacked cell WHILE he was transforming into his perfect form?
Present trunks could sure learn a thing or two.
This makes the shifting villains from the end of Naruto look downright tame by comparison
Black zetsu casually aproach madara!
The episode where baby awakens might be on the top 5 best directed episodes in the entire franchise, i dont know the staff that worked on this episode but they really did an amazing job.
"I feel like we should be stopping this."
"Nah, I want a good fight!"
I am starting to understand why there are parts of Dragon Ball GT I don't remenber...
I think I remember why I purged the baby arc from my memory.
You can tell they wanted to move on from the Dragon Ball Hunting storyline from OG DB and move on to the Action-type storytelling from Z.
Something about Trunks walking down the stairs to reveal himself as still alive reminds me of the Tournament of Power when 17 pops up all “and I’m here too!”
TBF the Tournament of Power actually goes out of its way to reinforce this.
Anyone who thought he was dead and not just hiding was an idiot. Androids don't have ki and if he died xeno would've marked him off the pad. It was so obvious
@@redmatzoo3280 They do have Ki though.
@@banjo9158Exactly, they’re human with cybernetic enhancements, and the enhancements don’t give them any ki. But there’s no reason they’d have less ki than an average human. Great for blending in with a crowd, but they can’t blend in with rocks the way, say, 16 can.
@@redmatzoo3280 I’m not talking logic, it’s the direction of the actual scenes that remind me of each other. That casual pop up when Trunks just walks down the steps versus the casual stride into the field after both parties were presumed dead.
"I wish he stayed looking like this forever" RIGHT!? It's such a cool design! Those eyes are so horrifying! Then over the course of the arc it just gets worse and worse. Though I do kinda love the initial silver haired robot eye Vegeta look too, only because it captures that creepy parasitic takeover look quite well.
Seriously though, the "plot" of the pre-Baby stuff is so batshit insane, I can't help but find it hilarious. It's awful, absolutely awful but how obviously the writers just wanted so badly to connect everything while simultaneously speedrunning to change the show completely is so incompetently done that I can't help but laugh at it. Ah yes, so all along, Baby created Myu who created Baby but also had a cult planet and a separate robot planet where he had a general stronger than Buu! Lmao
At least we can finally throw away all these convoluted and stupid pieces to the "puzzle" and keep the focus on Baby now.
Baby saying he created Myuu and not the other way around is still one of the most confusing things I've ever seen in a professionally written production. I don't think it ever gets so much as a mention later, why did they bother???
As someone who recently watched Godzillamendoza's Spiderman video, this is absolutely nothing compared to that.
This is in the Metal Gear Solid 4 "Ocelot hypnotised himself to think he is possessed by Liquid's ghost to trick the AI controlling the world that he isn't betraying it" level at most.
Not that confusing.
It's not confusing as much as it is lazy and vague, because they don't bother trying to explain it at all. It's just meant to imply that the plot is more complicated than it actually is.
@@genyakozlov1316 As someone that just started the first Metal Gear on PS1, and is still in the beggning: What the fuck did i just read?
the secrets of baby was my favourite early 2000's edm duo.
Boy, this Mutant Machine command chain would suit nicely for DBGT Abridged.
I love how Trunks biggest contribution in all of GT was just a contrived plotwist based on development from the the prequel's future version of the same character, and that is already stretching
And that is somehow better than Trunks in DBS. that's the real mistery for me.
Oh man, I need to go back and watch p art 1. I'm a new sub here, and this looks like a great series! Thanks for your hard work and effort on this, stoked to go through this!
Glad to have you! Hope this will be helpful. I do have a playlist of all Dragon Ball Dissection episodes. ua-cam.com/play/PLpUvCDCHJKPNvBJsIP0PX79UTNx0z1VQJ.html
I remember when i was young how confused i was with the whole "Baby created Myu so that he could create Baby". I was just waiting for some sort of flashback to explain what the hell it meant.
On the other hand, i'm really interest to hear in the next episodes what you think about Baby in general as a character. I always found his revenge motivation to be extremely underdeveloped, when it could have been really interesting. We know the Saiyans weren't good people and wiped out entire planets, so having a main villain come from one of those places could have added a layer of sympathy to him. But his personality is really just generic bad guy who wants to take over the universe. I'm not saying to make him a tragic villain, but something more could have been done.
I think they do plenty enough with Baby. He's not meant to be sympathetic in any sense. He's an abomination to God and milking that idea too much interferes with that. For some reason nowadays everyone wants villains to be shades of grey. Shades of Grey sucks though. It takes away from character's personalities and adds an air of patheticism to them that undermines the horrible things they do. Baby enslaves an entire planet by taking over their bodies. He is NOT a good guy by any means. The pay off for the whole Saiyan's bad motif with Baby is that GT at least gives him his due and lets him get as far as he does with his plans. The Saiyan's destroyed his planet. He kicks Goku, the last Saiyan off his own planet and eventually, does succeed in destroying the Earth. The role reversal is so heavy handed they literally turn him into a Great Ape by the end.
@@ZeroX7649 Yeah the Great Ape stuff is actually pretty good, even if the battle itself is really boring. I should have clarified that i absolutely do not want Baby to be some sort of tragic character somewhat justifeid in his actions, and i do agree that a lot of modern villains suffer because they try to make them too sympathetic instead of actually menacing figures, but i also think that his personality doesn't let him stand out from other bad guys. He's still the best main villain that GT offered (and better than some of Super villains), but i also don't have many good things to say to Super 17 and Omega
@@ZeroX7649 The difference is that baby is 100% justify of his hatred towards saiyans, DBS does everything in his power to brainwash people into thinking saiyans were a nice warrior people, if you go back and read the manga the saiyans were always 100% pure evil with or without frieza there.
Baby lost his life, his people and his planet to a band of space barbarians, he let hatred consume him and turned him into a monster that is just as bad as the saiyans, completing his transformation into the giant oozaru that took away everything from him.
Baby had more potential to be explored but TOEI cared more about selling new saiyans figurines and we cant do that if that species is evil..........
@Frieza-yg4zpWhilst on the hospital planet, Baby discloses that Mu discovered a black star ball and "converted it to data" for analysis, which is apparently what brought the balls to his attention.
Which honestly reeks of the writers covering themselves in order to justify the odd visual of a dragon ball falling from Mu's head.
Baby being utterly convinced of his own moral superiority right from the off is a good indicator that he's a nutcase and a lost cause.
He doesn't care about how his actions might harm others because everything he does is automatically justified: it's all to further his desire for revenge against the irredeemable, barbarous saiyans. He's a victim. The fact that he's now victimising an entirely innocent people (the population of Earth) is simply lost on him, because again it's all about HIS revenge. They don't matter; they're tools. Even the saiyans he's tormenting weren't directly responsible. But nuance doesn’t matter to Baby, just REVENGE.
It's a blessing and a curse for the character, honestly.
Thank you so much for sacrificing your sanity for us. Experiencing this for the second time is strangely comforting.
As someone who suffered through this trite as a kid, trust me, the show really is as bad as MistareFusion is letting on. It brings me great joy to know this shite is no longer canon, even if SS4 had way better designs than the transformations we've gotten in Super so far.
@@emmastarr5242It's not like Super's writing is that much better.
Honestly i just consider the original manga and OG DB and DBZ anime the only canon at this point.
@@joshtheryuk Highly disagree, but... 🤷♀️
Ah yes, this episode. The Baby reveal episode was actually my first exposure to GT. My sister got Legacy of Goku II with a strategy guide to go with it, and it was packaged with a DVD of just that episode, so I was completely out of the loop. Didn't have cable at the time and the last time I watched Dragon Ball Z, it was at the end of the Cell Saga.
I didn't even imagine the plot was *that* messy until coming back to it. I thought, maybe it was just a dub thing but no, the localization team must have went nuts seeing this mess untangle and twist itself back into...I can't even say a pretzel. A pretzel has a distinct shape and design, this is just an incomprehensible mess
And...looking back on this now. I think this is where Blizzard got their idea for World of Warcraft: Shadowlands
Man that robo-telepathy that was explained in that one scene in that one episode you missed goes crazy. Who knew that Trunks' Capsule Corp brain chip worked like that?
That wikipedia citation joke killed my lungs, laughed way too hard at those citation jokes.
I have NEVER understood how Bebi created Muu. Like...it makes literally no damn sense. Back when I first saw stuff of GT that was the IMMEDIATE question going through my head when that was said, and they never clarified anything beyond that (as far as I remember) other than him being remnants of the Plant people's legacy. It's just saying "I created you actually" to the guy that LITERALLY created him. To this day I have no idea how exactly Bebi's origins work.
Was pretty annoyed though when Bebi just turned into another "Evil Vegeta". So damn boring. In this original form he's like the second creepiest thing in the franchise. I'm even okay with him form after he gets away and is turning into liquid and stuff, but once he gets to Earth it's just...so bleh.
GT does like to play with fun fight locations. Even the very final evil dragon has that great amusement park setting.
Anyway, maybe Mu was protective over Luud's energy precisely /because/ he was using it for Baby (and yeah, the writers obviously weren't thinking that at the time, I'm not stupid, but I think those two dots connect all right at least)
I still wonder how Baby could have created Dr. Mu. When I read it in the Perfect Files, there was no explanation to how it worked.
I suspect it was done when the writers settled on the idea of Baby being a product of Tsufuru/Tuffle science. For that to be true, you need to override the idea that he's Dr. Mu's magnum opus. Making Mu HIS creation instead leaves that possibility open.
I also suspect the writers had no idea how they'd actually connect those dots, but threw it in anyway for one final twist.
@@Hydrogue I think what they were going for was that he created Mu and them programmed Mu to turn him into a "machine mutant" so he would be more powerful. Could have been explained better though.
@@Hydrogue Your excuse makes the most sense
It was said there was a normal human life on M2 before machine mutants. I guess Myu was once a regular scients living on M2 and found Baby who infected him and brainwashed, gave him all the info about machine mutants technology and forced to turn everyone into machine mutants and gather energy for him to grow stronger.
I mean, the Luud one makes sense. Mu was harvesting energy to use on Baby and activating it means no more energy gathering.
I forgot how strange supersaiyan kid goku looks. ik Goten goes super saiyan, but gt's artstyle makes it look so much wierder to me
Trunks's plan makes as much sense as Luke's plan in the beginning of Return of the Jedi
Then it appears I have come full circle!
They are masters of winging it and making it look like they had a plan all along.
I was so waiting for your ranting on the asinine amount of "twists" in this section of the story. GT really had no idea what it wanted to do half the time. Everytime they change their minds no it was a narrative twist. New villain? He's connected to this new villain. It just keeps going on and on. Toriyama is infamous for being lost when writing Dragon Ball but at least he keeps things simple to at least partially hide it. Here they try to act like their some masterminds but it only calls attention to just how stupid and scattered everything is. When people say GT fails at execution this is what they mean...I think. It's what I mean when I say it anyway.
a Good exmpale of a story with vaugness is Coraline as we never learn too much on the Other Mother or Other World's orgins
I give Goku a pass for not doing anything while Baby wakes up. He's like 50 really and he's seen all this stuff happen before. Pan and Trunks have no excuse tho.
The fact that Goku seen this stuff before actually still makes him look stupid. He should know better than too just sit there. If this Trunks was future boy he would have destroyed everything like he and Kurrin did with the unfinished Cell.
@@spartanq7781 I disagree, I think it makes Goku look curious or even confident, but I see your point.
@@spartanq7781Well all know Goku was just salivating for another Big Bad Guy to punch.
@@MidoriNatsume Which is also dumb. The world was already destroyed once so he really shouldn't take any unnecessary risks.
@@spartanq7781Can't be worse than his super self
Maybe trunks just let goku think he let himself get frozen.
Because he's embarrassed that he let that happen? And they did make this plan after the little robot left swapped him out for the fake
You know, the last three sagas (Cell, Majin Buu, and Baby) have all had sub-plots regarding trying to prevent the villain from even getting to the point of danger in the first place. For Cell, it was the idea of using the dragon balls to stop Dr. Gero before he creates the androids. With Majin Buu, it was the quest to stop Babidi from awakening Majin Buu. Here, it was Trunks' attempt to kill Baby while he's still a fetus. Even the last Dragon Ball Z movie involved a plot point where not-Link was trying to prevent the great evil from escaping his body by not sleeping.
It would be nice if we could have a saga where the entire A-plot was preventing the great evil from surfacing, and the heroes actually succeed in doing so. Sure, it would leave us wondering what could have been, because the villain wouldn't have been able to personally demonstrate why it was such a good idea to prevent his rise to power in the first place. But we could dance around that by having a flashback where a character remembers a million years ago what the villain did the last time he was this strong.
Bear in mind that the most popular saga in the series - the Frieza Saga - had the heroes actually succeeding in preventing the villains' plans. Specifically, Frieza wanted to wish for immortality, and the heroes prevented that from happening. They didn't just defeat the villain despite his initial plan succeeding; his initial plan was thwarted. Obviously, if he had gotten that wish, no amount of "big fight" would have been able to defeat him. But it nonetheless demonstrates that plots that center around prevention rather than defeat can indeed work.
Yeaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
I really like Baby as an idea at first. A villain that isn't just generic strong guy #347, but actually infects people and heroes alike and turns them into his own zombie slaves, it's cool and something unique. The Garlic Jr arc also does the mind control, but the execution of how it works is so much better with him actually having to strategically infect people directly instead of just tossing the brainwashing mist over an entire planet. I just wish they did a bit more with it in the end instead of just turning him into generic strong guy #347 by the end once he takes over Vegeta. I'm not sure what it is with Dragon Ball and turning very cool villain concepts and tossing them away to turn them into generic strong guys. They did it with Cell once he first transformed, they did it with Majin Buu after he turned into Super Buu, and they do it again with Baby.
I actually don't mind this as much because by the time Baby does devolve into generic strong guy, he's already achieved most of his goals. He created another planet, enslaved the human race, and took over Goku's friends and family. There's not much left for Baby to do other than to be defeated narratively by that point. Cell is a MUCH more egregious case. Mostly because Endless Island Adventure sucks.
Pretty sure this issue is just a byproduct of DB getting big for being so counterculture to shonen.
but then, when it got so big that it became the culture, it became harder and harder to drift away from the traditional dragon Ball formula. Despite the fact of not having a formula is part of Toriyama’s bread and butter and would help get the series on the map in the first place.
Anything new is never given a chance and immediately pushed back for something more familiar. Gero, 17 18 16, cell, fat buu etc.
You can see it in GT. but you can TASTE it in super all the way up until superhero, where Gohan hijacks a film that wasn’t even about him from piccolo to learn a lesson and hand wave a new form as a handout for the umpteenth time.
The fact that the grahnollah and Moro arcs exist at all is a mystery to me.
@@theradionicrevival8068 Don't get me started on Gohan Beast...We'll be here all day. I'm just happy Piccolo got to shine for as long as he did in Superhero. I hate it. The marketing execs and editors will say people love Gohan and push that, but in a very meta way, the story was Piccolo doing literally all the fucking work and was the best part of the movie, only for Gohan to steal the spotlight. He doesn't even deserve it.
To be fair, I suspect the original intent was a Gohan + Piccolo movie of both of them being the hero. Gohan IS popular, and a lot of us still wish Toriyama had handled him better. Did Superhero execute the Gohan + Piccolo part well? Haven't seen it yet, but probably not. Sounds like they wrote Gohan into a corner of not acting outside extreme circumstances, so they needed a lot of build up just to get to the Gohan + Piccolo working together part. After which, in classic Dragon Ball fashion, story-writing and everything goes down the drain in favor of a "power level tennis match."
Still, Gohan and Piccolo both took down the big bad, and for most DB fans, I think that's all that registers. As for handling Gohan better, keeping the story flow throughout a whole movie instead of it falling off a cliff at the "big battle" part, or not giving Piccolo (or other non-saiyans) the shaft? I think you're asking for a fundamental re-writing of Dragon Ball.
@@gregm4813 Why are you talking about things you don't know about anything?It was meant to be a Piccolo movie till the producer of said movie bothered Toriyama enough to include Gohan because he is a Gohan fan.
Gohan is pretty much shoehorned into a Piccolo movie, his presense did nothing but just steal the villain kill from Piccolo, he is the worst part of the movie.
clearly Dr. Mu hates kids... but looooves men ;-)...
This part of the series hurts my brain.
I love the kazoo!
Wow, I did not expect this to come out on my birthday! This is gonna be good!
Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday!
@@MistareFusionThank you!
The art isn't consistent at 21:33, too: Trunks and Giru have shadows, Goku and Pan don't.
Would you consider doing a series like this on the faults and twists of db super?
You missed an opportunity to reference Lost in Space with Giru freaking out over baby.
Why do they have movie theater on a machine planet anyway?
Well, it wasn't always a machine planet. They wiped out the original population and took it over.
I kinda do like the twists, but it is true that they are not explored enough, it feels as though they ran out of space in the narrative to fit in the explanations or something, still the whole M2 portion of the story i find very engaging between the cool looking antagonists (Myuu, Rildo, Sigma Force), the character drama with Giru and the twists.
As for Goku realizing something was fishy when Trunks was put in carbonite, i always interpreted it as Goku thought Trunks was caught by the ray way too easy for his skills, as in, Trunks would have normally given more of a fight but to Goku it looked like he was getting caught on purpose.
Your suggestion for fixing the twist in this episode is called the "Terminator 3" done right.
It's ok, it's all only uphill from here. Well uhhhh after the scene with the deer it's only uphill from here! Until Baby just randomly can't fit in Vegeta anymore it's only uphill! Well there's also the weird board game universe but idk I like that part. Also Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta has no way to transform but it's only uphill! Also there's 2 more sagas that fluctuate HEAVILY in quality, but I swear it's totally only uphill from here! A Hero's Legacy is actually really good tho even if they never explain how Puck lives
Sugaroku Space is the sort of weird thing that could've fit right in during the initial dragon ball hunt. Especially if it whisked them away just before securing a ball.
I don't think the Shadow Dragon Saga is that bad. also, i don't get the thing about "Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta has no way to transform" what's wrong with that?
@@banjo9158 Baby-Vegeta has no tail, meaning that he doesn't have the glands that react to blutz waves and allow him to transform.
@@Hydrogue I don't think that matters the blutz waves ray makes the saiyan grow a tail. as long as he still saiyan he can react to it, tail doesn't matter that much.
@@banjo9158 I mean if that were the case we wouldn't have had to have Goku get his pulled out by a pair of plyers. I never cared much about it as a kid and tbh still don't that much, but realistically he shouldn't be able to transform. I like him in fighting games tho so meh not gonna complain too much
Wow, GT's writing really is something XD Thank you for suffering through this series for us Lance!
GT has a lot of problems but it isn't torture. I like it.
You know, all these GT twists remind me of the way Vince Russo booked WCW in 2000 and 2001!
Even though I disagree with lance a lot in these reviews, I 10000% agree that GT did have better environmental visuals during fights, really.. every version of DB aside from Z had better more interesting fight locales than Z, for that matter.
Love that the Dragon Quest III hero is in that movie poster.
Oh my God the billboard is a Dragon Quest III reference (aka, what Toriyama is even MORE known for in Japan).
True dq did invent modern videpgame rpgs so his involvement is a big deal!
What's more complicated, the Baby arc twists here or the Wedding Dress arc?
Now, I haven't seen Dragon Ball GT since probably middle school, but aren't there several scenes of Giru being rewarded for betraying Goku and Pals while he just seems to feel extremely guilty over the fact that he backstabbed Pan? I feel like I remember that happening.
Not particularly. I already point out the instances where that does happen, which is pretty much solely in episode 20, when Giru gives Pan (?) his medal. He's typically shown happily chowing down on a plate of electronics or volunteering to share all of his data with Mega Cannon Sigma.
@@MistareFusion Huh. Maybe I'm just remembering the eye covering instance then. Either way, the twist just seems needlessly convoluted and contradictory.
Maybe computer baby created myuu to act as an agent to gather energy while he was safe behind the layer of (there s always someone behind someone) in order to created the perfect body for baby to be in buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, and correct me if I m wrong, I don't remember hearing nor seeing a computer baby anywhere which is why this whole nonsense is kinda nonsense.
They kinda tried to redo the hatchyak thing but worse?
Well, the Baby Arc was more of a convoluted mess than I remember. And that’s a shame because the rest of GT doesn’t fare much better. Super 17 arc is a total clusterfuck. And while the Shadow Dragons have a good premise, they fail to make good use of the supporting cast (it’s monster of the week until the end of the arc). GT is the series infamous for good ideas, poor execution.
Its actually "d o o f i"
(1:28-1:39) Except for the castle's courtyard in the final battle of the Piccolo Daimao arc. Then again, it gets destroyed and turned into a barren wasteland, so that's debatable.
wow this show is way worse than i remember
Are the heroes ever gonna learn their lesson to stop letting developing evil beings come to fruition? This is the 3rd time now.
and then the writers of Digimon Adventure 02 went to the same 'twists but no logic' school of plot knocks
Imagine if the next GT twist was fucking Myotismon.
@@Hydrogue every twist in everything forever will eventually be MYOTISMON
It's a rule in DragonBall. We wait
Gosh I likewise never made sense of Baby making Myu or the Dragon Ball inside Myu xD
And always tought final form Baby didnt look good.
_Baby on board_
_Something something_
_Burt Ward_
It’s been a while since I saw this arc, and it’s quite sobering to see just how much things go sideways when the author’s material isn’t being used any more.
Toriyama may have had his own issues with story planning but at least he could recover to a decent conclusion. The Baby Arc is all sorts of screwed up in its execution and really foretold the death of GT as a whole.
What are you talking about? The Buu Saga is as bad as the entirety of GT. New gods are always popping up, just like new fusions and superpowers and that was the author giving his best material without editorial interference. We also have the Cell Saga which has endless plot holes time travel related, 2 sets of disposable enemies and that's because we HAD editors giving their feedback. You have 3 scenarios: no toriyama, unshackled toriyama and guided toriyama and all 3 of these examples resulted in bad writing and bad arcs so I don't know how strong your confirmation bias is but you need to keep it in check.
The baby arc is the best aspect of GT I think :)
@@pascalsimioli6777GT just really got DBZ spirit right, but the flaws Z has in storytelling become more apparent with the shorter runtime.
At least GT has good ideas it executes suboptimally, just like Android and Buu arcs really, while Super has bad ideas it occasionally executes well, and occasionally even worse than GT.
The ending of the Goku Black arc was properly foreshadowed and makes sense but it's still an awful idea, while the whole second part of Grenola arc is both a bad idea and isn't executed well, although that one isn't made by Toriyama either.
Not saying Super never has good ideas, like Ultra Instinct or the Super Hero movie, but too much of it is comprised of things I don't like even in concept. The Baby arc even up to this point is better than 80% of Super's arcs.
@@genyakozlov1316 You can say 100% and there is no problem with that, the only actually consistent arc in DBS is the tournament agains't the universe 6, and that was mostly just ok, and only got really good at the end in the fight agains't Hit, and that's pretty much it, it's good but very basic.
Ohno, saiyan scholar is gonna make a video debunking this arc
How in the entire fuck does planet Luud even fit into this? I STILL don’t know
While this doesn't change every other inconsistency you've noticed, GIru complaining that Trunks is late is not necessarily contradicted by him stalling for time. We could assume Trunks was supposed to show up before Giru even had to do that in the first place.
I never claimed it was a contradiction. I'm making the point that there are a lot of things that exist only to trick the audience into believing there is a tangible plan when there isn't. Lines like, "I thought that's what was going on" and "You're late" are meaningless stock phrases made to imply there's something deeper beneath the surface.
How to fix this WHOLE TRAINWREAK: Have it so Giru fought a rouge reprograming as he was a prototype made by Buima that just LOOKED like the M2 mecha and have Baby basically be a rouge creation as with the Alien movie parilaels in his scean.
at least final baby is not just a palet swap like modern transformations in dragon ball
On further contemplation, I was thinking that this would actually be the best breaking point for any hypothetical distinction between the "Black Star" and "Baby" arcs.
While the standard dividing point of the group's arrival on M2 is very arbitrary, but with Dr.Myuu's defeat the story actually reaches a moderately satisfactory conclusion. Sure, it also introduced Baby at the same time, but that could be seen more like setup for the following arc than a continuation of the same arc. It's certainty a cleaner place to make such a break than at any point between Androids/Cell.
The wiki says this _is_ where the Baby arc is considered to start in Japan.
This is one of the funniest episodes yet. Love your work.
Okay, so how did Baby create Myuu to create him? How did he create him if he wasn't finished yet, and if he was created, then why go through that whole scheme of pretending he wasn't? I've never understood that, and it's looking like the reason it didn't make sense is because it's bullshit.
I would love to see at the end of this dissection a long writing exercise of everything you'd change to fix GT. You shouldn't do it with og dragonball but GT has potential for that kinda thing, a bit by bit take down like this dissection but improving it instead
This whole "plan" of stopping Baby is as funny and as random and stupid as the stuff you talked about during the Cell arc; hilarious stuff.
Your twists you described sound like from m night shyamalan movies.
This made me laugh so many times thank you. This is why you have to do dragon ball super eventually, so much stupidity to point out. long live dbd !!
Oh my Lord, I forgot how the entire premise towards Baby is so stupid to the point where it always slide out of my mind.
my brain hurts from this episode
i feel like that happens in every action anime though. They all stand around like idiots waiting for the opponent to do their plan.