@@mayotango1317 she pretty much stops stalking Adrien after Mr pigeon 72 and the other times she did stalk him "Gabriel agreste" "Risk" and "Emotion" she (A) is trying to stop Chloe from keeping him out of school (B) She was under an akumitized villains influence. (C) she was suspicious of his father being controlling and turns out she was right at the end of the episode. And you could argue that Marinette got no consequences, but cmon, are you guys really going to keep scaling the consequences of a cartoon with those real life? People have called out Marinette multiple times (tikki,alya). And on top of it all losing all of the miraculous because of her obsession with Adrien was HUGE for her. At the the beginning of season 5 she said she's done with all the crazy Adrien plans and that's exactly what happens. But all you guys care about I Marinette getting exposed as a stalker and her going to to jail. You do realize that practically kill adrienette when it comes to broadcasting right? Thomas fucked up with Marinettes character in earlier seasons. It you aren't willing to meet astruc halfway through with the effort they made to improve the character then that's on you.
I think the reason Adrian is less criticized than Marinette, is because the show punishes him enough. Not necessarily about his shit "nice guy" behavior, but his life sucks. The show constantly depicts his life as restrictive, lonely, isolating, emotionally neglecting, and with a tiger parent who both expects perfection, and yet refuses to validate any of your emotions or personality. We see Adrian go through all this and realize Chat Noir is Adrian's escape. The him that gets to let loose and act on all his impulses, including acting on his feelings for a girl. Which isn't okay. But he has no social practice or ability to regulate his emotions, so we're more lenient/ sad when things don't go his way, because it hurts seeing this boy suffer even more than he already was. Still not okay, but it's a reason. Marinette on the other hand, has a relatively great life. She has multiple friends. A class that cares about her. Her grades are awesome. Her family adores her, she has an AMAZING room. And she has passions she can indulge in and is good at! Her life is fantastic on paper! So when she is depicted as a creepy stalker girl, who's constantly drooling over Adrian with no good reason as to why she's this way. And a narriative that constantly rewards her for it (steals his phone, ends up going to a trip with him. Trying to ruin his friendship with Kagami ends up making her sit next to him at a movie. SNIFFING HIS PILLOW, Leads to her DATING him. And finally the wax statue incident: is the reason he LOVES HER?!?! This is all bullshit and VERY concerning behavior and she should not be rewarded over it!!! Finally, the last reason we feel more for Adrian than Marinette, is because Adrian NEVER fully outright regects Marinette. At least not in the show (the movie does.). Where as Ladybug, Marinette is regecting Chat Noir CONSTANTLY. He gets put down again and again. Meanwhile, Adrian never puts Marinette down and always keeps her close "as a friend." Until he starts dating her in season 5. He never learns about all the creepy shit this girl is doing in the background. Memorizing his schedule (how did she get that...) stealing his property. Going through the trash to look for a note he tosses. Ruining his friendships/ relationships with other girls. (Lilah and Kagami). Chat Noir although up front, is HONEST about his emotions and tells her to her face. The one time he messes with a boy who might like Ladybug (a photographer in season 1) he is punished HARD by the narrative and he never tries that again. Where Marinette will try that same tactic, constantly. All in all, its the deception and double standards that get on a lot of people's nerves. As well as their backgrounds that make people hate Marinette more than Adrian.
Narritive awards her Copycat fair enough , uhm depends what special your talking but that wasn't a reward , and that entire plan back fired she only got in because she nice to the fictional thomas astruc , amd she had to fix the timeline. Fair enough Well Alya called her out on it in Risk and she stops with the behaviour she and she has realized her mistake and at the same time Lila was lying well she has to thats the function of the main character they need yo have repeat certain mistakes as the audience is young Double standards The Fandom Adrien Harasses Ladybug after she tells him to stop: thats cool Marinette throws him in the Bin after repeatly telling him to stop with the harassment : Poision her, Drown her, Bash her in the head
@@Owell_Owl That's the thing. The fandom can see that Adrien has a viable explanation for what he's done from episode 1. Adrien is not socially aware of anything due to his upbringing and minimal social interactions with people his age. Adrien doesn't know he's crossing boundaries untill Ladybug tells him to stop, which he does in Glaciator 2
@@Owell_Owl but Ladybug several times says that she rejects Cat Noir flirting bc the bad timing, but at the same time we had the bonus in the NY special when she decided to went off her anger during a battle. And what happened there? Cat Noir killed somebody bc she distracted him. She says things like I would never lie to you, and then Cat noir discovered that she kissed him in "prime queen" when he saw the picture. She had to forcefully kiss him (something really personal for not just a teenager) and she didn't tell him anything about it.
@@Owell_Owl bc Nadja was saying that it was love. The problem here is that she never talk about it with him, they were partners and she kept keeping secrets, and when felix tried to kiss her she felt awfull and rightfully rejected him. But she forcefully kiss Cat Noir and she never felt she had to talk about it. Maybe she felt bad about it or bc people believed they had a relationship, but she never felt she had to speak with Cat Noir. The true is that Ladybug doesn't seem to care about Cat Noir feelings.
Marinette’s problem is the same as Chloe’s- Thomas Astruc. He hates that Marinette isn’t liked by the fandom so retaliates by making her a Mary Sue, and hates that Chloe is popular so he makes her into an unrealistic villain.
I think more he liked the more unlikable version of Chloe as a character and keeps trying to explain as to why the audience should ALSO like that version better than the more nuanced portrayal of the character. He wrote the whole “damnation arc” thinking the audience would be fine with it… We all know how much the fanbase loves the character and their more NUANCED self. Couple that with the shallow reasons for her betrayal and hyperbolic comparisons to Donald Trump, abusers and agreeing with someone comparing her to rapists lead the fanbase to slowly turn against the creator and their involvement with their own creation with a TON of other missteps with a multitude of other characters contributing to this. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too: Make the character more nuanced for a while to make their betrayal sting all the more while being able to go back to the “golden years” of the character’s more flat self. The two are FUNDAMENTALLY incompatible and the version he wrote season 4 onward is a apparent flanderization of the character in a way that reflects no sort of “realism” the story is apparently going for.
marinette isn't a mary sue she isn't good at everything is bad at raping chienese and other things get consanqeunes doesn't get closer to adrien when she is creppy with him makes a permemant enemy out of lila in voplina the world get's destroyed in cat blanc etc the people online in reunion don't like her neither does the past ladybug miraclous holder she has flaws that are nesscarcy to the story like not being able to control her emotions she isn't over idealised or over skilled
@@michalelkin-bronner7958 Well there is also a thing called “Narrative weight” that makes examples like that of the online posts against ladybug seem like a flat plot device not meant to be considered by the audience. Alix’s brother’s concerns aren’t treated as understandable, but is something that is emphasized to be seen as social media irrationality.
I would say that the writers deserve the hate more because they refuse to accept constructive criticism in regards to writing Marinette's character. One of the most egregious examples of the poor writing decisions done to her character is that for most of the show, they almost never portray her unhealthy obsession with Adrien as wrong because it's supposed to be 'funny'. Well, just because somethign is supposed to be 'funny', it doesn't mean it couldn’t potentially be harmful towards viewers, ESPECIALLY if the target audience are children who are just starting school.
EDIT 2: chucking this at the top. If you want to see someone influenced enough by the show to downplay Marinettes stalking, theyre in my replies. The way this show is raising people is not a joke. From what I've seen, the fandom doesn't hate Marinette for being Marinette. They resent the writers for their decisions surrounding Marinette. Most people, when it comes to "hating Marinette", have a more nuanced view on it. That Marinette is simply a product of Zag Entertainment, and a product that embodies many of the writing inconsistencies, plot holes and value problems the company injects into the show. Most fans can justify their dislike for her. "She's a stalker who instead of having to learn her actions are wrong, was given a traumatic backstory by the writers to excuse or even justify her actions." "When other characters do wrong to Marinette, they are disproportionately punished. But when Marinette does the same to others, she is praised for her actions." Many fans have constructive and thought out reasons for why they find her to be such a dislikeable character. I rarely see hate for Marinette that isn't justified by a well thought out argument. EDIT: I think the reason why Chat Noir's character is not "hated" as much for his weird nice-guy behavior towards Ladybug in season 3-4 (as you mention at 3:59) is because Chat Noir does receive "writing punishment" for his behavior. His screen time is detracted, his agency and importance is retracted. Narratively, Ladybug keeps him at an arms length when she realises he's being serious about his feelings for her. It's also acknowledged at some point, with Chat Noir expressing frustration about how difficult it is for him to get over her, and how she has to be patient with him as he does so. It's never outright addressed the way it should be which is disappointing, but why would it be when the stalker behavior is more than justified?
And just how is this 14/16 yr old girl suppose to learn to recognize her mistakes between: Crushing, saving France/sometimes other places, helping out with her family's business, getting bullied, school and homework, tryin to maintain friendships, baby sitting, training with her master, doing extra curricular activities here and there like design contest, school trips, trying to figure out who hawk moth is, and o she is female so let's not forget that one thing that happens once a month! I could really go on and on listing more things but unless she gets a therapist and maybe medication if needed she's not gonna actually change unless given the real help she needs to deal with her emotions and hormones properly!,And also yes all the characters are products!, XD products of experinces of real people created to tell a story and sell toys!, these are fictional characters and cannot speak or act for themselves dud like honestly!
From what i've seen. People don't even care about the writers atp. So many people rn hate Marinette as if she's a real person that chose to do all these decisions and not like shes a fictional character who's choices are dictated by the writers. Its actually sad at this point.
@@kaekaesam6240 U say all that like Adrian doesn't have responsibilities mind u she chose to take on extraordinary amount of activities she didn't have to choose to so she can't really blame anyone but herself except for being ladybug and guardian the rest was her own choice
@@reviewsandtheories4941she didn’t chose to be guardian nor to be ladybug she accepted it as her responsibility she has a life mind you she likes designing and knitting them out and I think they make her commit these actions because she doesn’t get the time to see her options out and think them through unlike when she is ladybug she takes things seriously but marionette is a child she wants to enjoy and live her life with mistakes or not and she wants to learn from her mistakes
It’s more of the writers fault for this but I’d really like it if Marinette wasn’t a Mary Sue all the time and actually learned from her mistakes. I really hope S6 fixes this.
It's more so astruck and the executives that are now on the show, because if you look back at season 2 were the writers were mostly left to their own devices, you can see with Chloé that they can ABSOLUTELY make a master piece. It's just astuck's ego won't let anyone up stage mari-sue, especially Chloé.
@@dizzyheads I don't like Marinette's character but she isn't really a Mary Sue, especially season 5 spending a lot of time focussing on her flaws, especially with losing the Kwamis.
Or even just Chloe is a better person. They don’t have to be friends but they could get along. She’s still got the rich girl attitude but she’s not bullying anyone.
@@aromaladyellie So true! Maybe her mom controlling her life is the push she needs to become a better person. Maybe she'll try to become a better person, but it's sad it has to be through allowing her to go through more abuse with her mom.
@aromaladyellie having them get along or be “friendly rivals” would have been better than Thomas destroying her. I could imagine an AU where Chloe isn’t a full on mean girl but still uses insult humor from time to time
@happyblackwoman6154 I agreed with that. Plus, the story would give Chloé and Marinette some interesting characterization to work out their issues with each other.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be friends right off the bat since chloe spent years hating on marinette, she could evolve into no longer hating marinette and stopping bullying her.
From what I see, most of the things that make fans angry have to do with the choices of the ones making the show, and since Marinete is the protagonist and sometimes even "takes up" the screen time of others this makes these problems turn to her because the focus is always on her. Some things about her character do have some problems, but it's true that sometimes the problem is in the writing and the direction of the story, not in her, but as I mentioned, she is the protagonist, so she ends up being part of it.
There's this thing with winx club where we make fun of Bloom being a greedy girl stealing everyone screen time for herself... i swear it could totally apply to marinette / ladybug 🤣
The key difference is Marinette is less sympathetic, but Adrien and Chloe are. That’s where the writing fails. In the world of the show, the other two are punished, some might argue too harshly, for bad behaviors, but Marinette is consistently excused or justified for hers. To an absurd level. The great irony is, much in the same way Chloe is excused of bad behaviors because she’s the mayor’s daughter, Marinette is excused for bad behaviors because she’s Astruc’s “daughter.” This contributes to classmates disliking Chloe, and fans disliking Marinette. And so, the more Marinette’s bad behaviors are “justified,” the more unsympathetic she becomes, because it’s not fair. Chloe gets sent away, Adrien gets thrown in the trash, but Marinette gets to be guardian when she fails, and Su Han’s apology when she causes the literal end of the world. This, when combined with the aforementioned cringe factor probably makes a lot of people quick to condemn her and forget that this too is a product of bad writing. My 50c.
What she does isn't justifued foes show why yes does make she did right no and she has already faced the conseqences so give it a rest and if she an imanginary daughter like why is that good reason to hate her
@@Owell_Owldon’t act like she’s a real person who actually suffers for all the hate, let people have fun with their disdain for a fictional character lmao especially when he deserves it
• I don't dislike Marinette but I do dislike how she's been written. In the beginning, I liked how quirky and a little klutzy she could be, as well as the potential she had for growth. However, her character writing began to deteriorate overtime in her personality and her decisions. • First off, her infatuation with Adrien. It started off as your average girl crush but it quickly turned into an unhealthy obsession along with her stalkerish tendencies. Her character began to have a one track mind that solely revolved around Adrien and nothing more. One minute Marinette is capable of sound minded reason, but once Adrien is mentioned, she loses all sense of reason and only cares about Adrien and doing everything to earn his favour even if those decisions could be damaging to her or someone else. Her relentless pursuit of Adrien and her written decisions being Adrien motivated made her character seem no different to Gabriel's obsession with Emilie, which at this point would make many wonder that if anything were to happen to Adrien would Marinette follow the same path as Gabriel. Now it's not uncommon for a main character to have a love interest or infatuation towards another character but how Marinette's infatuation experience has been written has gone from being cute to being creepy and concerning. • Second, the way Marinette's character has been written to refrain from her facing consequences for critical decisions that could grant her growth. Many of Marinette's choices have had consequences or have affected other people severely, but instead of facing a certain form of accountability, a justification is made to make it seem like Marinette is not wrong for what she did or it's someone else's fault or it seems to have been forgotten like it never happened and everything is okay. For example, Marinette's VERY CONCERNING stalking habit. This habit should have been confronted and corrected in the beginning but it was later given the justification of it being due to past trauma. Now, I can understand certain habits being developed due to trauma, and if they had identified the trauma as being the cause of Marinette's stalking habit but still confronting her that this habit is NOT okay and to put a stop to it, then that would have been okay. However, they just used the trauma as a way to justify Marinette's stalking, did not confront nor correct it and left it like Marinette didn't do anything wrong. Not only that, the character Kim was made into something of a sacrificial plot lamb which left inconsistencies in the story. Now, if Marinette had such a bad history with Kim then she would have had reservations about trusting him with a Miraculous, but from the looks of things, there was no such issue and Marinette trusted him wholeheartedly. In a way, Marinette hasn't been written in quite a realistic way or in a way that helps her character grow well through the story. I would almost say that the writers gave Marinette's character a kind of "Golden Child" treatment where: 1. She can do no wrong. 2. She doesn't have to learn much of a lesson unless the writers think she should learn it but not because she needs to. 3. If she does make a critical mistake by her own choices then it's either not confronted, is someone else's fault, she's in some way justified to it or it's magically erased like it never happened. 4. She's given some random scenarios of growth when it's not quite clear how she's earned that growth at times. Etc..... These factors along with others could be what infuriates fans most especially when Marinette's flaws seem to end up trying to be written off as funny when it's actually concerning, and if someone speaks up about these concerns, it suddenly taken as a personal attack at the writers professionality of sorts and as a result the concerns are either ignored or the writers seem to double down on these severe flaws. I think they seem to mix up the factor of caring about the character with liking the character. They want Marinette to be likable protagonist but they're neglecting in caring about how she's written which as a result makes her less likable over time to fans. Marinette may be the protagonist but the writers seem to be trying to make her into this flawless figure which if anything is crippling her character and puts her in somewhat of a negative light with viewers. In fact, the times that the writers LET Marinette learn a lesson, the lesson in question almost falls under a category of being common knowledge by then, but when it comes to the moments where that lesson serves as a significant growth to her character, it's seen as irrelevant somehow which makes her character deteriorate further especially when it comes to a point where that neglected lesson could have helped a great deal in one of her critical decisions. At this point, no one wants Marinette to be flawless or get everything right. All that is requested is for Marinette to written right, to have these severe flaws acknowledged and corrected to give Marinette the significant growth needed as well as giving the other characters a significant growth as well. If that growth can't be granted, then we probably don't have to imagine too hard how season 6 might go as Marinette may just be written to repeat these mistakes or increase the severity of some of her critical flaws.
I agree with all of this! I don't particularly hate her more so tired of her. I just hope one day it gets a remake with better writers cause it would fix almost all the issues with this series
Well although some things easily be done chloè redemption etc other things such as Adrien isn't possible with the target audience and there people who says things such Luka being a blue hair Adrien and I'm like yeah that was what they were trying do
I wish I could enjoy watching Marinette, but how she's written 90% of the time literally makes me cringe. I hate the writing, not the fictional character.
8:40 Nope, Marinette was only terrified of Chloe in the movie. In the series Chloe was barely taken seriously and we even see Marinette mocking her. I would even say that Chloe was Lila's "Sabrina" and she barely knew what was going on around her until his last scene in the jet aircraft. Honestly in season three we see Marinette ignoring and being neglectful of Chloe in the same way she will later do with Chat Noir in season four; for Dupain-Cheng only her "friends" deserve to be part of her club. The only difference is that with Chloe we saw consequences of it while Chat Noir easily forgave her for being his simp and it was all ignored in season 5 when he "fell in love" with Marinette out of nowhere.
We don’t hate Marinette-we hate how Marinette’s flaws are never treated as flaws and how she never grows as a character. All of the “good” characters love Marinette. Only the “bad” ones hate her. And everyone always forgives or hand-waves any bad behavior that Marinette shows. When she stalks Adrien or manipulates those around him out of jealousy, we’re told it’s because of love. When she uses her Miraculous for selfish purposes and ruins everything, we’re told it’s because of love. When she lies to Adrien and Paris about Gabe, we’re told it’s because of love. None of these things are ever acknowledged by other characters as bad actions, despite the fact that they absolutely are. I’ve seen fanfics that accurately compare Marinette’s possessive, controlling, manipulative behavior towards Adrien to Gabriel’s own treatment of him. She makes it her mission to secretly know everything about him. She invades his privacy without any care for his feelings. She keeps him in the dark about his family and his identity simply because she thinks he’s better off believing a lie.
I kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette2
Gabriel does shit for love, that doesn’t make it justified… I was gonna say “why isn’t Mari held to the same standard” but she kinda is considering how much Gabriel got away with in the end BECAUSE OF HER!
Yes she has like Marinette at the start she usually happy and bubbly while nowadays she's has self essteem issues and is doubting herself and is almost despresssed quite a bit of the time
Anyone else feel gross thinking about how this show was made _for kids_ as its target audience, and yet they have Marinette being a creepy stalker, Adrien being a Nice Guy™ in some of the middle seasons, Chloe as an irredeemable bully despite her abusive parents, Lila being a psychopathic manipulator, and Gabriel being an abusive father AND a terrorist? And that's only scratching the surface. There's a LOT of oddly creepy or messed up things in this show, and NONE OF IT is handled with the maturity or nuance it requires. They treat it like its nothing, despite this show's main audience being _children._ Yes, children _can_ handle darker themes a lot more than people give it credit for, but it requires a lot more care than they give. It feels straight up irresponsible how they portray these things. I don't want to sound like a Karen (I don't even have kids), but seriously is no one else really bothered by this? This show makes me feel gross inside sometimes, and I'm a grown adult. Imagine being a kid and seeing the main character role model sniffing their crush's pillow... I shudder to think what kind of message they would take away from that.
Well they need to that to show children what not to do We all handle things some won't get upset doesn't mean another won't get upset about it thats why they usually try comic relief with things like Marinette's Depressed voicmail in transmission or Sneaking to the party in Gabriel Agreste like i got shown a zombie movie and i couldn't sleep that night but somehow with the way I've been raised I have the strength to watch shows with Murder,Shooting etc at the age of around 10 ,30 mins before sleeping other people wouldn't able to that
@@Owell_Owl While I do agree that kids need to know what not to do... Marinette is the protagonist. She is a superhero AND an everyday superhero. Yes, she is clearly flawed. Yes, kids will pick up on that. But Marinette is still the protagonist, and if she doesn't get punished for doing something bad or creepy, then kids might think those actions are ok. Personally, I think seasons 1-2 were fine. Season 3 was somewhat ok I think. Everything after that probably shouldn't be watched by kids at all. That being said, there are tons of other kids' TV shows out there. I don't think one outlier is going to do that much damage. But the writers really should've thought that one through more. Well, they should've thought everything through more. They had the recipe for a fantastic show with memorable characters and mostly blew it.
I actually genuinely dislike Marinette because of her actions in lying to Adrien and the entire world. Then I look at all her bad actions in the past and then I get angry at the character. Same happened with Gabriel, his actions in both Ephemeral and everything after that point with alliance and the s5 finale genuinely disgust me and then i look onto shit like Bubbler and get even angrier about it. Not my favorites, that is very clear.
I have a question for you. Do you also hate Felix and Kagami? Let me tell you this, these two hypocrites knew everything way before Marinette did and they didn’t tel anyone. They only showed Marinette that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Felix trash is literally Adriens cousin and knew Gabriel was hawkmoth from the start and also knew Adrien was a senti. Felix keeps saying he does everything for Adrien, yet doesn’t even let him know anything. Talk abt a hypocrite
People what's with the hate comments Idt anyone is a hypocrite .... Uk that's cos everyone in the show had their own reasons to do whatever they did. In the end Gabriel did all this for Emilie and he also disappears at the end of season 5 Plus tbh Felix and kagami are the cutest thing ever And about marinette.. Who said her life is great? Did u guys even see the first few episodes of season 4 The things she went through after becoming a guardian were too hectic and her life is totally amazing!! I agree at times she made terrible mistakes which she could have reverted if she wasn't blind but we all are forgetting in the end she was a teenager too and had alot in her plate!! Not being rude..
@@muichirotokito5624 Agreed. I am not totally mad at them yet but I might be if Felix doesn't speak tf up in future. And Kagami too, Adrien should know he's a senti.
@@fateena2908 About Gabriel. Did he really have to torture his son with all the modelling, learning chinese, fencing, giving him a pen 3 years in a row to his birthday, forcing him to obey using the rings, that shit -> S4 finale: Nearly sending him onto a months long tour despite his resentment, S5 finale -> Sending him into a psychiatric prison cell in literally London while making him suffer under the Alliance rings, might I add while not even knowing he's Cat Noir, just doing this all for fun? And let me not even mention the things he would've done in Cat Blanc and Ephemeral. As for Marinette, I was talking about her weird and creepy stalker shenanigans. I now see them more poignant, not the stress she had in S4, I forgive her for all that.
I don't think you should hate her because yes he definitely deserves to know since it is his father but I think after chat blanc her whole perspective changed, and I'm sure when she went to tell adrien she remembered that, cause not only did his father die but he was also the villan, and adrien doesn't handle his emotions all that trauma is a sure akumatization.So that's probably why mari is being reluctant on telling him, but hopefully it gets resolved
I think the reason that so many fans hate Marinette and criticize her so much over Adrien or Chole is simply because she is never treated as being in the wrong, she makes bad choices and does bad things to other people, like stalking, and it is never addressed or in the case of her stalking Adrien even justified, its intentional bad writing. The reason why people go easy on Adrien or Chole is simply because when they do something wrong the narrative addresses it and punishes them for it, even if it isn't addressed enough, like in the case of Adrien being a "nice guy". Whereas with Marinette it is never addressed and she is never treated as being in the wrong. Combine that with her getting the majority of the shows focus and you can see why that's frustrating for people, nobody likes a Mary sue, and that is what Marinette became in the latter seasons of the show.
@@Owell_Owl and that was when the shows writing is at its best, season 1, 2, and to lesser degree 5, all have Marinette make mistakes and get called out on them, but the show still refuses to address a lot of Marinette's other issue, like the stalking, and she is still treated as perfect a majority of the time. It doesn't matter if a Mary sue isn't treated as always being in the right every now and then, if they are still treated as always being in the right a majority of the time even when their not, and that is very frustrating thing. In fact I would say its more frustrating, because the show still shows potential for good writing, it just chooses not to.
The "stalking"was adressed in the season 4 finale by Alya she definitely not like they do show that yeah there is definitely things that this can be done like Chloè redemption but we can't ask everything too like Adrien being not possible with this target audience though he should be used and also people things about the show such as Luka is just blue haired Adrien and I'm like"Yeah that was they were trying do that was the point"
@@Owell_Owl Just because the stalking is addressed as bad once doesn't mean anything, my point that I am trying to make partially is that the show goes out of its way to make Marinette look good and not punish her for things that other characters would be punished for, they literally spend an entire episode trying to justify her stalking Adrien. That's frustrating for a lot of people, which is my point. It doesn't matter if Alya calls it out once or twice because Marinette never faces any consequences for it and is never punished for it. Imagine if a guy was stalking Marinette and knows everything about her schedule, do you think the show wouldn't rightfully punish the guy for being a creep.
She has faced conseqences whenever she "stalks" Adrien it gets her nowhere like in the Shanghai special because what she wants to do is creepy she doesn't get to do that like the only scene they are together as Marinette and Adrien is the ending of it like just because she isn't in jail or people aren't screaming qt her does not mean she faces no conseqences she usually has to say sorry and / or rectify her mistake like in cat Blanc she breaks into Adrien's rom causes a disruption in the timeline and Bunnyx has to drag her to the alternate future to fix it they aren't Justifying her actions Does it show us why she acted like that ?yes Does it make what she was doing right ?no
Marinette isn't the problem. Astruc is. He's such a man child when it comes to constructive criticism. He doesn't listen to what fans have to say about any of his characters, especially Marinette. That's his golden child, and doesnt give a damn about how she acts (towards others) or whether she grows as a character. As long as she's the main focus. Like....he literally booted Adrien from being a main character to being under Alya. I've began to resent the character of Mari in the series because of him. And why I've began taking a liking to Movie Mari. She's better written, has development, isn't a Mary-sue/prodigy child. Zag listened to what fans had to say, heck maybe even read some fan rewrites and made her character more likable and someone we can sympathise with, without that fake backstory. Astruc just needs to be fired period
So along as the fans ain’t attacking any of the VAs, we won’t have any problems… but the people of Twitter will find someway to push the wrong buttons.
Unironically Marinette doesn't deserve hate , Chloe doesn't deserve hate, kim adrien , lila , felix and even zoe doesn't deserve hate , astruc is just a weirdo . Imagine how many other artists in france alone could have a show
Frankly I can imagine an adult Marinette becoming the new Hawk Moth if something happens to her Adrien. With Alya as her Nathalie. Now that would be a great series finale. She and Grabiel are like two sides of the same coin. From her humble origins with fashion dreams to constantly lying to Adrien and only preferring an idealized version of him. That's why I got chills watching her create an akuma in the Paris special.
Reminder, Felix, Natalie and Kagami all knew this information way before Marinette. They didn’t tell anyone LOL. Felix and Kagami trash only showed that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Hypocrite Felix tells Kagami gabes identity and that she and Adrien are sentis. Yet he can’t do it for his own cousin who he is supposedly doing everything for. Marinette shouldn’t be the one to tell him anything. Those garbage 3 characters I mentioned should. First Felix should ACTUALLY tell Adrien he is a senti, not by doing some dumb play, then a couple months after, Nathalie can tell Adrien that she was mayura and Gabriel was hawkmoth. None of this is in Marinette place to tell
@@muichirotokito5624 The funny thing is that Marinette quickly forgot about that play that Kagami and Felix did, it would have made more sense if it had been for Adrien. The fact that Kagami also kept the truth from her seems very out of character for someone as brutally honest and honorable as she is.
@@mayotango1317that’s the thing, their play can be interpreted in so many different ways. If only they could’ve told her 1 on 1. Also Felix and Kagami didn’t show that play for adriens sake, hawkmoths identity (horribly told) or even them being sentis. They only showed her that so that they can be allowed to date without Gabriel’s judgement. Wtf is wrong w Felix and Kagami bruh.
At this point, fixing her writing doesn't do much for me; she missed opportunities to acknowledge (and perhaps face the consequences of) her mistakes. We're 6 SEASONS IN, so it says a lot if the main character has always had poor writing.
@@AarnaAmbardar-n5d plea-se the trauma came out of nowhere no foreshadowing no nothing just a episode for making us feel bad but it has the opposite effect on others like me it's kinda scummy that's why I prefer the movie version of Mari but never NEVER the series
I agree. Marinette is a great character who suffers from the writing. She is a kid who makes mistakes but does everything she can to do good and be a good friend. She and everyone else in the show deserves better than what the writing deteriorated into.
Chloe I sympathise because she’s a neglected child . She is doing what she can to be seen by her parents . And maybe that means she is doing bad but that dosent mean she is bad , we have seen her inner depths and the only reason why she dowubles down on bad behaviour is because her own role model has decided she isn’t exceptional by not letting her be queen bee .
I think part of the hate comes from how almost everything in the writing is used to build marinette up and will bring other characters down to make her look better
True tbh, Marinette was the reason I started watching the show. Unlike the majority of the fandom, I actually quite enjoy her "stalkerish scenes" because I just love the cringe in general. It's not written in a serious way so I never thought it was promting harmful behavior or anything. But gaslighting your boyfriend into worshipping his abuser is just beyond icky even for me
@@josratubangura I meant gaslighting from Adrien's perspective. Because of Marinette’s weird decision to honour Adrien's abuser wish over Adrien's agency, he's now going to gaslight himself into rationalizing all the abuse he has faced for years. Now that his father is considered a "hero" he's going to think every horrible thing Gabriel has ever done is for "Adrien's own good" which is such a problematic take for an abuse victim
I think one of the reasons people hold Marinette to a higher standard than the likes of Adrien and Chloe is because of how she's been favoured by the writing. She takes up unnecessary screentime, even for the protagonist. Her flaws aren't treated like flaws nearly enough as they should be. While she does make mistakes, her punishments aren't as bad as they would be if she were somebody else. It's like the writers don't want to acknowledge how bad her negative traits can be, and so she's criticised a lot more than the rest of the cast. If the others were treated more fairly, I don't think she'd stick out so much.
I think the Adrien/Marinette double standard is because Marinette is treated well, and also has far more agency. It's easier to be angry at a character who you think has it easy than one you think does not. And when you have Astruc making statements like 'The executives are resisting letting Adrien be a main character.'
Most people hate on Marinette after the wish and not telling Adrien what happened, but like, Felix adriens cousin who knew everything for way longer doesn’t tell him either 😂😂😂
Like I said before, I personally don't hate her. I just see her as a bit of a misguided child placed in an inconvenient circumstance that needs a closer and level headed mentor. She has good intentions, she loves her family, she cares for others. Plus, remember that Luz Noceda used snakes and was going to use an explosive (fireworks taped to a toy car) for a class presentation? Or that Anne Boonchuy left her frog family to work the farm on a storm and used violence on her newfound frog family on certain occasions? Or how about Hilda who lied to her mother, said she grounded her "just to be mean" and called her "just a mom"? Or that twilight sparkle unintentionally brainwashed an entire town in an attempt to report a lesson to Celestia? Or that tulip's whole journey on the infinity train was "hey girl, everyone suffers from something. Your needs and wants aren't greater than others." My point is that all those girls had a problem or two and some even loose screws, but they were still loved and enjoyed. So what makes her special? That her love is obsessive? Please. tootie, panini and dijonay were way more obsessive and uncomfortable. That she gets away with minimal consequences? Luz, Twilight and Anne got away with things way worse. They are all who they are and if anyone has a problem with it, it's theirs. And before you say anything, no. I don't hate chloe and and Lila. I genuinely feel sorry for the former while I find the latter very interesting. Just like twilight and Anne, It will just take more time to change. Just look at what Garth Ennis (writer of the boys comic book) said when talking about hughie: "Hughie has a total inability to learn from his mistakes and change his ways [which] will eventually stand him in good stead... No doubt Hughie's tendency to mope and turn inwards is a source of frustration to many readers, all used to comic heroes who learn from experience and develop into fully-rounded characters ready to handle anything. In my experience this is like no one who's ever existed in real life; even the most capable people either maintain or eventually return to their essential flaws. I doubt any twenty-something lad unused to trauma and violence could simply absorb it straightaway, and if he did become hardened or inured it would be as a different, less sensitive person. In other words, Hughie's bizarre triumph is that he remains Hughie.". It's the same thing with Marinette (except it's for kids). between marinette and the rest of the girls I mentioned (especially Luz, Hilda and Tulip), Marinette will have a more complicated path as she goes from progress to regress on that journey of life it will take her long like Anne and twilight to become that more idolized/accepted version of herself. And if you want a girl protagonist who doesn't grow, just look at Reggie of twelve forever.
my opinion is that the hate is not deserved the cast all have flaws and some of the writing could be improved but it is hardly the character problem. if they mention Marinette in more depth than just the mention that Cloe is hated by almost everybody else. it would have really made more sense on why Marinette don't trust her or like Cloe
The thing is that while every characters are victims of bad writing people are less likely to defend Marinette when both the story and the writer makes her appear to be right everytime
She was hated by half the fandom before that, actually, mate. In the course of 9 years, she's been one of the most disliked characters on the show. I, myself, have been a long-time hater of Marinette. Since 2015 in fact. I always felt like she was weird and RUDE, especially to Chat Noir and never liked how much favoritism she got in-universe and within the the writer's room. Glad people are finally realizing how problematic he is. Also, Chat Noir's behavior is not as bad at Marinette's to Adrien. Plus, he is called out for his bad behavior all the time and Thomas purposely writes Chat Noir as less skilled despite giving him fighting prowess and other skillsets.
Thing is Marinette get most screentime then other characters and that is flaw its own.Fans have no other option just hate character they see most.But Chloe redemption is ridiculous in Season 6.So he cut her legs and only then she get forgivness?Thomas is insane!Yes,that new girl in trailer is CHLOE!
@@cemrecerenylmaz7958 he is literally insane...if show wouldnt be such drama and one of few show what is intersting to watch nowadays,he would have nothing.I think I am lucky that in my age where very amazing kids show,now is all just content farm.Is sad.
I think the main double standard people criticise marinette for ( at least i do ) is the *reason* she gives Chloe. She says she can't give her the miraculous anymore because she has no secret identity. So who does she give a miraculous then? The only other Heroine who also outed herself immediately. And she faces no flack for this! She never gets called out on her hypocracy. Then Chloe of course unmasks all the heroes, and Ladybug keeps proving her point. All of the heroes who's identity get outed in Miracle Queen get to keep their miraculouses. Hell, Alix ( who has the arguably most powerful one ) even gets to tell the whole class! To the point where even Gabriel knows about it. If i was Chloe, i'd be pissed too! Especially since we learn in season 4 that you can change your secret identity and costume. Besides, what does it matter if chloe's identity is public? I mean Hawkmoth can't un-learn it. Nothing stops him from just keeping on to attack Chloe and her loved ones. Hell, one could argue that it'd be more responsible to let her keep the miraculous, so she could at least defend herself and her loved ones should they get Akumatized. Instead of just having to helplessly watch, hoping that ladybug might come
It is a bit hyocritical but the situation isn't all black and white like Chloè willingly revealed herself and put people in danger while all the others apart from Kagami didn't it do by choice
I keep saying, Chloe should've been an exception to the rule of secret identities. She was the first to reject an Akuma; when Mayura tried to tempt her as Queen Bee she was utterly un-impressed, and to top that, in Heroe's Day Scarlet Moth had to akumatize 3 people to finally affect her. Chloe/Queen Bee could've been a wild card, with some combo with the horse miraculous to send the bee miraculous to her plus the dog one to retreive it in case she went rogue.
@@riel4553 Bro I want chloe back as queen bee. Vesperia is literal garbage I'm not even joking, she is the worst miraculous users out there. Even King Monkey and Miss Hounnd are more better then her.
@@muichirotokito5624 I don't mind Vesperia but I do mind the show saying that the miraculous and the personality of the holder should match. (Adrian couldn't be the holder of the snake) If the bee miraculous worked for Chloe then it should not work for Zoe well enough to keep giving it to her.
@@riel4553 It isnt that Adrien was a poor match for the Snake, in my opinon, adrien is actually one of the best people you could pick for that miraculous. The only reason he had to do 25k rewinds was because He was aspik and couldn't be cat noir at the same time. I'm pretty sure that Ladybug's plan included Cat Noir. And him having the dedication to do 25k loops shows that he is perfect for the snake miraculous.
It's nice to see that your take is similar to my own in this situation. A lot of characters in this show were done dirty by the writing, but it feels like Marinette is sometimes treated by the fandom as an actual person rather than a fictional character who isn't being written well.
Marinette is bad for simply existing. She is teh embodiment of every bad female protagonist troupe . Also the whole queen bee fiasco was her fault. What was stopping her from using both queen bee and ryoko ? Or just leave kagami alone! You told her she can’t be a hero anymore, honour that !. Don’t just get double standards cus you want your trophy boyfriend to yourself you ray Skywalker parody
I think part of the reason why the general fan base (aka the target audience) is because well, it’s been almost 10 years since it debuted; the target audience are growing up and realizing that Mari’s actions were not “cute”, “funny”, or “quirky”. They are starting to recognize them as the harmful, toxic actions that they are. They are also realizing how badly the favoritism of Marinette has ruined much of the show. Even other shows have entire episodes dedicated to other characters, and aren’t nearly as disingenuous with their marketing (such as making it seem Cat Nior/Adrien was an important and equal character to Marinette; the bar wasn’t very high). The audience is realizing that blind admiration for a show/product is not indicative of a “true” fan. People (like myself) criticize the show BECAUSE we care so much about it, and we KNOW it could be better. Normally, I would have given Mari more grace is her unhealthy behavior, if the show was able to show her in the wrong. Her actions are either justified, encouraged, swept under the rug, or the “consequences” she face either don’t last longer than 5 seconds or don’t directly affect her. We need to acknowledge the whole context. Her age does not mean they are no longer harmful. If anything, her age is a reason to DOUBLE DOWN that it’s not okay. No one expects her to be perfect (especially at 15), but it’s not like NOT invalidating others’ boundaries, stealing from others, and taking away their agency is particularly hard to do, especially for the person they “love”.
It was not justfied does show us she "stalked" him yes does make what she did right no do eps like Ikari Gozen not no longer than 5 sec what Miracle queen, Strikeback, Volpina and bunch other of other eps not exist all of a sudden
@@Owell_Owl Strike out Ikari Gozen from that list because the consequences lasted only for that episode. The issue people have is that these episodes NEVER STUCK to the character UNTIL Strikeback. The lesson of “don’t let love mess with your superhero work” was punished more than THREE times before and yet the character didn’t get the memo until she lost every jewel in the box! Hell, four times if we count the bout with the snake miraculous. Making the character not make the same mistake over and over again is the crux of the issue and that doesn’t even include episodes like Animeastro where this behavior isn’t punished.
She needs to repeat mistakes for the target audidnce benefit Her plan to get Kagami away from Adrien backfired like conseqences are negative results amd like she needs to repeat certain so the audience can relearn them
@@Owell_Owl That’s not true, and stop insulting the intelligence of children. You’re also insulting Marinette’s intelligence. Nothing is above criticism. Like I mentioned before, the consequences don’t stick, they have little (so little that is doesn’t even matter) to no lasting impact. The closest we get to her learning from her mistakes is in season 5, and like I mention before, the other characters (Luka, Alya, Kagami) try to justify her actions and say they are not a big deal and guilt her into chasing Adrien again, but that’s another conversation for another day. Saying something “last for 5 seconds” is just an expression; I don’t mean that whatever consequence Mari gets literally last 5 seconds. Either you aren’t fluent in English (which judging by how you structure your sentences, is a big possibility), or you’re purposely trying to twist what others and I say so it doesn’t make sense. If it’s the latter, the fact that you have to go to such lengths to justify the terrible and inconsistent writing says so much.
I'm not insulting anyones inteligence? Like even at anyone other you do require to repeat certain things for you to learn sometimes. I *NEVER* said that I'm not trying to bring toxic posivity because thats not better than saying the show absolutely sucks
Also for me my personal issues with Marinette is that shes never apologized or faced actually consequence for sowing the seeds of doubt in Kagami's and Adrien relationship, and even if she didn't skip over Chloe's with the express choice to hurt her she didn't talk to her either , even though she told tikki and Chat she would . Her actions are never addressed again , even though Chloe up to that point did everything she told her to do . The only other person to cause nearly as many akumatizations as chloe is Marinette and then felix is easily more dangerous than Chloe or even Lila and he gets to keep his miraculous (he's compromised to boot ) . It's all the writing but it's still annoying how she'll act justified in everything she does and then turn around and never followed her own rules unless it means screwing over Chloe .
@@JskskMmmf I believe that was done in response to people keep hating on Marinette and the writers felt forced to give it a reason. And Honestly I think its fine. It gives her a reason to over think everything which in turned helped her to become Ladybug. She isn't a Stalker, Everyone Else is overacting to a cartoon meant for children.
@@happyblackwoman6154 honestly, Zoe is a real boring character. Her biggest character trait is that she is nice and that she is Chloes half sister. I don’t even care that she replaced queen bee atp, but even as a miraculous user she is real boring and isn’t even good at using her miraculous.
@@Owell_Owl She is literally a garbage miraculous user. The Ladybug and Cat miraculous are the two strongest of the box, then the next 5 are the turtle, fox, butterfly, peacock, and bee. Chloe literally had Mauyra running and was about to snatch her miraculous. Zoe can only use venom and jump, she doesn't even bother using her tool which is ridiculous. And she is not a female version of Adrien, don't even make that comparison. Zoe is a one dimensional character who has no backstory apart from being from New York where she was bullied, which we never got to see btw. Adrien has so many layers of depth to his character which is why he's one of the most popular and well liked characters from the show. Adrien's mother died a year before and we can see how that's affected him, to the point where he considered using the wish to being her back. His father's neglect, emotional abuse, and literally manipulating how he acts and what he does. Him being a sentibeing, having no freewill while Gabriel is in possesion of the rings. His father being the literal villian of the show. There is so much more I can say, but I think you get the jist of it by now.
@@muichirotokito5624and I would like to add that all her supposed story is just what the fans want to have for Chloe for example Chloe standing up against her mother and Chloe loving his father so Zoe's more of a thief than anything
Yeah I love her too, but yes, that's EXACTLY why she was created. She should have been introduced/created earlier on in the show and given more character development and her own story instead of being a replacement for Chloe.
What's you're saying is true! When a villanous, mean or antagonist character becomes good, people give them all the praise; but when the main protagonist does something bad, when they were supposedly portrayed as good, they get all the hate. It's almost like when people idolize a celebrity for years as their role model, until the celebrity was not as perfect as fans thought they were. Putting supposedly "good" people on the pedestal, much...🙄
I honestly think that for *Miraculous Ladybug*, it’s the way Thomas Astruc treats the characters that causes people like me to feel sympathy for Chloé and not Marinette. In the beginning, the show never sugarcoats her behavior; they make it clear she’s bad, and when she does something wrong, she often gets what she deserves. So when you see her genuinely develop and the show actually still addresses her issues and acknowledges them, it makes you root for her because it acknowledges both her problems and flaws, as well as the good in her. Marinette started out similarly-she had flaws that the show acknowledged. She had problems and issues, but as the show goes on, they increasingly fail to address her issues. When Chloé is being hypocritical, the show addresses it as they should, but when Marinette does the same, the show seems to ignore it. When Chloé is being creepy or awful, the show always acknowledges it on some level, whether it’s through a cruel joke that makes you dislike her even more or an actual plot point. Yet, Marinette isn’t treated the same, especially in later seasons. Instead of truly acknowledging her flaws, they try to justify them. For example, Marinette is portrayed as a stalker, but they excuse it by saying she had a traumatic past, which contradicts other story plots. Marinette can't give Chloé the Miraculous because it’ll endanger her, yet she gives Alya a permanent Miraculous even when Hawk Moth went after her. Marinette hates Lila because she lies, but her best friend Alya is a massive liar, and she befriends Zoé, who was a giant liar and literally bullied her. When Marinette treats Chat Noir badly, it’s addressed, but not in a satisfying way-they give Marinette excuses. And if you disagree with Thomas Astruc, he’ll just make another excuse. The problem is that some people, including me, hate bad people , yes, but if everyone acknowledges their issues, it’s not nearly as annoying as someone who lies and pretends to be good and, when caught, refuses to acknowledge their mistakes. Or if they do, they try hard to sugarcoat it or make you sympathize with them instead of truly working to make them better. That's what Thomas did to Marinette and what made me dislike her
@@panpanmonday3585 True, Marinette could be problematic at times, but I think people should bring down all of the characters down equally! And yes, THOMAS IS THE PROBLEM!!!
I kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette, and she was being rude to cat noir all those times because she was stressed most the time , you shouldn't blame the character blame the writer's
holy moly :o I came back to your channel after a year (decided to drop MLB after that horrendous season 5 ending, but recently I got weak and picked it up again). Your videos have gotten so much better! And that's not to say they were bad before, but they have such a nice flow now that wasn't as strong before. Good job!
I think people like it went bad characters do good things more than when good characters do bad things in this scenario because when marinette does bad things (stalking, being a major creep, etc.) the show tries to make it seem as if it's just her being quirky, ultimately glorifying her actions. Imo that's pretty bad. Whereas when we see chloe start to become a better character, it's in the name of character growth. She's starting to actually better herself and become a good person. When a character is imagined as terrible or the absolute worse in character-driven shows, there's only one way people's perception of the character can go as the story continues (upwards). The opposite is true for characters that are imagined as the best/good. Of course people are going to flock towards character growth vs character assassination. When you have good characters do bad things, 1. wtf, and 2. it makes the audience's perception of the characters become worse. Case-in-point, people want to see people do good things anyway. Characters can have flaws, but stalking people isn't a flaw, it's a crime. If Chloe has to face the consequences of her actions (bullying) why does Marinette get a pass for stalking and sniffing people's pillows (story-wise)? Is it bad writing? Yes, and Marinette and Chloe are the two biggest examples of the writer's bad writing, thus they get the most attention. Due to being on opposite ends of good/bad character, they get vastly different reactions.
I think a lot of people are unfair to her regarding her lying about Gabriel in the S5 finale. Does Adrien deserve to know the truth? Yes absolutely. Does it make sense that Marinette wouldn't want to tell him? Also yes. If I was in her shoes I don't think I'd want to tell him "you know your dad, who just died, making you an orphan? He was also the guy who was terrorizing the city for a year." Also there are other people who could, and should have told Adrien the truth before Gabriel died, Nathalie and Felix.
I agree with some of your points, but I think the reason why other characters like Chloe and Adrian gets a pass and Marinette doesn't because like Marinette, they are also teenagers; they are prone to make many mistakes and many bad decisions before they eventually learn from them, but unlike Marinette, they don't have caring role models in their lives that tell them right from wrong. Chloe's parents are arrogant, neglectful douchebags that don't give her the time of day and instead give her stuff to shut her up, and Gabriel shut his own son (who is still grieving the loss of his mother) out and force him to do things he doesn't want to.
I just can't get over how they did chat noir so dirty. In season 1 and 2 he was a great super hero who was an equal member of the pair, but then the writers decided to just make him a side character with barely any screen time even though the name of the show is called ladybug AND chat noir. Plus he's a much more interesting character with a more interesting story. I will also never forgive the writers for what they did to him in the finale.
I used to be one who hated Marinette, but after watching the infamous episode where they try and excuse her stalking behavior, I realized I hated the writing and not her. It's not HER fault the writers make the decisions they do about her, it's not HER fault the show excuses her toxic behaviors, it's the WRITING'S fault.
@@Owell_Owl No it absolutely was justifying, you cannot say that wasn't the intention because the writers and Astruc excuse it all the time and play it off for laughs and as cutesy. The episode only exists to make fans shut up about her doing this.
Using for comedic effect isn't the best route no doubt by it's to use to show Children what not to do and even after breaking out the akuma she says I know *why* I'm so afraid it's not a Justification it is not the action of declaring or making something righteous
@@Owell_Owl Again, I'm saying the writers (mainly Astruc) are trying to justify her behavior, not that the episode is. Literally the only reason the episode exists is because Astruc and everybody wanted the world to shut up about Marinette being a stalker, and the in-episode explanation they give is shoved down your throat by having Marinette say the full explanation that being "Next time I'm interested in someone I'm going to make sure I know everything about them!" Also, the explanation makes no sense, because then why didn't she stalk Luka? The episode was not made for story reasons, if anything it is a filler episode, and you can tell, especially with how late it came into the show. Again, I don't think the episode itself is the problem, it's the way the writers treat it and try to justify it/get fans to shut up.
ALSO the show never has Marinette realize this behavior is bad! They give the reason it exists, a half-baked excuse that you can tell was only made to make fans stop being angry, but NEVER has it said that it's bad. And in the season 6 trailer, it's implied Marinette STILL stalks Adrien. It's 100% the writers trying to justify her actions with an episode that did nothing and was just an episode to make an excuse.
Thank you for this video Smarty Pants. While I think criticism is okay, the straight up hate I see for a fictional 14 year old girl is insane. Considering the fact that some of these people are adults too 💀 Marinette is a good person who makes bad decisions at times which is make sense because she is a kid still growing. Just like Adrien, just like Chloe. I talk to plenty of people who are outside of the fandom/slightly in it and they also tend to have Marinette as one of their favs but do point out her flaws (mostly that she was creepy) but don’t straight up hate her.
Honestly, I don’t really think hating her is really warranted and justified. The only people that I ever truly hated were the writers of the show, especially the main lead Thomas As(s)truc himself.
And because asstruc hates it when we hate on his fictional daughter we will hate her for retaliation like he can handle having a hate comment about himself but never NEVER hate commenting about Marinette, and that's also the reason I'll like Chloe is just to be petty cause if his petty well fan are more petty because of the poor writing and ruining the show Srry just ranting have a nice day
If you want to know why Marinette has a higher standard? Go and watch the miraculous episode where Santa comes and declares that ladybug is the nicest child IN THE WORLD. She's at a higher standard because the show pushes her that way. Adrian got passes unjustifiably, he's a loser so we felt bad for him. Chloe got the inverse of Marinete, she lost consistently and repeatedly. So the Karma of her actions evened out. Marinettes Karma doesn't even out though.
Santa declares ladybug is the nicest child in the world because Marinette said to nino's younger brother (prob so he could stop being annoying), it's really not that serious
@@mayotango1317 ok, for the felix thing she thought he was Adrien. As for Kim, that was Fu (though she kept giving it back so you get a half point there) as for Sabrina...OK you have a point there
@@madysonslays9662 Watch Derision again, Kim not deserves his Miraculous. And Felix still has his Miraculous despite revealing his identity to the public before eliminating humanity and being a creepy with Kagami.
@mayotango1317 which is why I gave you a point for Kim, Marinette didn't give him the jewel in the first place, it was Fu, but she kept giving it to him despite what he did in derision. As for Felix, you get a point because of the season 5 finale
My issues for Marinette herself started in season 4. To me, it just seemed like she was making decisions that caused problems that didn't need to be problems. And honestly, I wasn't seeing the logic behind them. I mean, can someone explain why Mari decided to make Alya a permanent holder and keep it a secret from CN? What was the point of that?
I think the difference in how Marinette is treated (hated by fandom) vs the other characters (given grace) is mainly due to how these character flaws are treated in the narrative. As you said, Chat Noir is written as kind of a pathetic hero pretty often, and his advances on LB do escalate to bring a bit incel-like. But that is somewhat addressed, even if incompletely. And he gets a far less favorable outcome for his own story- literally taken out of the final battle because he’s apparently too pathetic. Meanwhile, Marinette gets the better outcomes for the narrative: she makes mistakes all the time, yet she’s somehow smarter than everyone, including multiple grown adults, one of which is a Master who has trained for his job since childhood (Su Han), can wear all the Miraculous with just a bit of fatigue (meanwhile Gabriel full on passes out trying the same), is smarter than her whole class (the Lila fiasco, is somehow the best Guardian ever at just 14, and defeats the big bad all on her own! (Well that one is not technically right, but the narrative does treat it as her victory). So while others’ flaws can be brushed under the rug by fandom, I think it’s easier to do so than with Marinette because she gets the golden treatment by the narrative in the end
I think the difference is potential/ what they should be and how clear it is. It's clear that Chloe should be an anti hero. It's clear that Chat Noir should be suave, cool, and have an arc about his family life, but the writers don't do it. What should Marinette be instead? What is the clear path the writers aren't taking?
despite marinettes bad habits i love her and her character !! People say “chloe this chloe that” true she needs a loving mother and cat noir aka adrien needs more screen time. but ive seen some people say they wished that astruc should d13.. like its not that deep chill😭 but overall, i love marinette regardless :)
I have ZERO hope for season six I speak for all of us when I say marrinette got to much scream time in season 5(idc if I spelled her name wrong) when other characters like Marc Max Sabrina And the other team members where right there and because of the random and stupid lgbtq reveals I don’t wanna know how season six is gonna handle love stories Thomas Astruc never learns from his mistakes and from what I heard he’s a creep and doesn’t deserve to be near a studio ever again be glad he isn’t working on the movies (for this of you who don’t think Astruc is a creep he worked on total spies nuf said
@@Ryan-q2f kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette
I agree with mostly everything you said. Regarding Adrien/Cat Noir's insistence toward Ladybug, I believe this could be more understandable since he had almost zero social interactions untill he's 14. The only bases for social interactions he has are Chloe and whatever he watched on TV or read. Plus, I believe some of the times he flirts with her are not even serious; he does it in a jocking maner. I mean if Ladybug truly had a serios problem with her partner's atitude, she had numerous oportunities to replace him. Also, I agree with you that Marinette is badly written like Adrien and Chloe, but since she is made to always be right or be the best hero there is or stuff like that, I belive people have troble seeing her as a victim of bad writting like Adrien or Chloe. Plus after all the stuff Chloe has done, I'm not surpised she ended up alone and despised by everyone. What the show and probably the fandom doesn't discuss much is how Adrien managed to become so kind and nice to be around without any social interactions except for Chloe and the emotional abuse and lonelinness he started suffering after Emilie "dissapeared". Plus remember all the rich kids at the Diamond's Dance? Thery were just like Chloe! I mean massive kudos for Adrien!
4:34 fair point but marinette is portrayed as a good person and even when she’s creepy she doesn’t get punished, Adrien and Chloe get punished for their bad behaviour 7:55 ladybug was less cruel for taking queen bee away from Chloe, it was a fair call for ladybug to make, Chloe clearly didn’t understand at the end of miraculer and ladybug was just like “ok Chloe” and left, then marinette was hypocritical and gave the miraculous back to kagami… a hypothetical decision… when that’s literally the reason Chloe Wasn’t allowed to have hers back
I honestly don't hate Marinette her character is fine if done right. I just hate how the story developed in general to a point where there is no going back to fix it for me, they only way the story can be salvageable is if we start from scratch
I think one of the main reason people sympathize with Chloe and Adrien more than Marinette is because their actions are more understandable, not justifiable, but understandable. Chloe has two neglectful parents. Her mom left when it appears she was about four. Her dad has one of the most important jobs, meaning he probably doesn't have much time to be with his daughter, so he just spoils her to not have to worry about her and her butler probably took more care of her than her parents. And every time we see her mother, she's shown to be awful, so it's definitely where she got her behavior from. Adrien has been shown to have a bad home life, even before his mom died, especially in the episode wishmaker. So he's probably never been to a consent class, so, shame on his parents for not teaching him that. Marinette has an amazing home life and knows better than to stalk. Even if she has PTSD from that god-awful episode Derision, she should've should've talked to her parents and gotten therapy. If, for some reason, she couldn't talk to her parents about what happened, then every parent in this show is terrible. She knows better than to stalk her crush. She knows better than to make a terrorist and child abuser look bad. And yes, I'm also mad at Kagami, Felix, Su-han, and Nathalie for not telling him the truth
While I think the special London may give us another understandable look at Marinette's reasons for hiding the truth from Adrien, I agree with everything else that you said. You can dislike Marinette, but hating her is stupid when other characters can just be as badly written as her, and I don't think that Marinette bein the main character is a reason to hold her up to higher standarts than characters like Adrien or Chloé. Like you said it's total hypocrisy to hate on a character who's a good person but who have cringy moments and makes bad decisions sometimes, and to pamper on a rotten character who only had a few good moments and is bad the rest of the time
The only difference is that Chloe and Adrien suffer for their actions and receive a lot of punishment, while Marinette has the easy life and always gets away with it.
Also it's because she has no excuse for being like that. Adrien and Chloe have very screwed up lives and their parents only hurt them emotionally. Whereas Marinette is perfect with loving parents and lots of friends.
THANK YOU 🎉🙏 FINALLY someone is spreading some insight about how hypocritical most Chloe stans are- that bothers me. how are you gonna say "Oh Chloe just got murdered by the bad writers, not her fault, and Marinette is just toxic and rude" when Marinette is literally has the same writers 🤔?? I'm not saying Marinette's perfect and everyone has to absolutely adore he but like geez guys chill a bit would yah
The problem I see is how the creative's team react to the fandom`s criticism. They don't like Pupeteer 2? Well Adrien felt in love in that cringe moment. Bullying is bad, all kind of bullying... and there we have Marinette bullying Kagami and getting her friendship first and then a seat next to Adrien after trying to public humiliate her. People still likes Chloe bc her mom is abusive, first they gave us Derision, after her father got a redemption after all he has done and a new Chloe and he punishes her sending her to live with her abusive mother. But she's not an abused or neglected child.
The thing is, Adrian and Chloe have crazy messed up home lives, while Marinette has both parents, a nice house, and both her parents love her. Adrian's mom is not in his life and his dad neglects him. Chloe's mom is unspeakably horrible to her and her dad is hardly even a man. They both have trauma that explains why they act out, while Marinette has no reason to act the way she does. Sure being a guardian is stressful, but she makes it more stressful than necessary by lying to her parents. I haven't seen season 5, so I know almost nothing abt it. I'd never bully someone about their opinion of a character.
@@LilyCWfan22 What do you mean how if Gabriel found out that Marinette's parents knew who Ladybug is he would either akumatized them to tell them who Ladybug is or set a trap 🪤 for Ladybug where she had no job but give her miraculous away to keep her family safe
@@cjgamer6356 True, but she told Alya, and several other ppl know, plus then her parents could help cover for her, like if she goes missing during school, her parents could make up an excuse for her. besides, HawkMoth probably wouldn't find out that her parents know. Anyway, it's a stupid show with more plot holes than swiss cheese, and I hate it. o_o
Black mask from Arkham origins: you think that will make me talk after they put me through the sidelines, the MC focus, and the MC fighting the villain herself and keeping secrets. IT'S THOMAS AND THE WRITERS FAULTS! NOT HERS!
Yes! She has treated Cat Noir like crap! She was horrible to Kagami and still was even in later seasons! And let’s not forget the worst thing she ever did! Forgiving and trusting a terrorist! You have to be a special kind of stupid to forgive something like that! And the London trailer. I’m saying it now. I do not feel bad for Marinette or Natalie! I hope Plagg tells Adrien the truth. Because Marinette would screw it up somehow if she did it!
Plagg can’t tell Adrien the truth because Gabe was a holder. Felix helped the terrorists Gabe and so did Nathalie. Kagami knew about it as well. Cat Noir deserves the poor treatment at times because he doesn’t know what consent is. Mari and Kagami had a rough start, but they were able to solve their issues.
@@josratubanguraIf you’re going to slander Cat Noir. Without making it only criticism. And outright hate on him. As well at hating on Kagami. I’m not going to listen to you.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian yo listen for a minute ok? Alright here’s a Reminder, Felix and Kagam knew this information way before Marinette. They didn’t tell anyone. Felix and Kagami trash only showed that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Hypocrite Felix tells Kagami gabes identity and that she and Adrien are sentis. Yet he can’t do it for his own cousin who he is supposedly doing everything for. Marinette shouldn’t be the one to tell him anything. Those garbage characters I mentioned should. First Felix should ACTUALLY tell Adrien he is a senti, not by doing some dumb play, then a couple months, Mari can tell him Gabriel’s identity, I still believe Natalie should because she was literally assisting a mass terrorist.
I hate Mari for the writers marking her weird and a Mary sue-I hate that later seasons they never addressed the and things she did. About Chat in season one it was just flirting and playfulness and it doesn’t help that Gabriel doesn’t teach that boy a damn thing whatsoever. He did used to be cool in season one the writers made him worse because they hate him so I hate the writers and story NOT characters.
I hate her because of the writers. Because she is the main character. They treat her like the only main character season 5 pissed me of when she took down Gabriel. His father ladybug should have been pushed back. Not him it is his character development and cat noir has no self respect. He is ass to but i blame Marinettes character for that.
Queen Banana is were I truely started to hate Marinette... That line about Controling your temper didn't win her any love from me and having Zoe lie really didn't help... hate by proxy and all that... i hate lier's
Personally, I blame Astruc for every bad writing decision and then trying to retcon it...but finding out in Derision that Marinette swore that she'd NEVER date anyone that was friends with Chole and her relationship with Adrien doesn't fully take off till: after she's essentially sabotaged his friendship with Chloe...yeah, that doesn't look great for her! Marinette is a planner; we've seen it time and time again! Who's to say she didn't see an opportunity to ruin the changes Chloe was beginning to show and take full advantage of the situation? I selfishly didn't let you save your parents, and you're rightfully upset with me? How about this: I can no longer give you the Miraculous at all...because you outed your identity! You fell prey to Hawkmoth because of all that? 😳 Well, I guess I REALLY can't ever trust you now! Wait you have a 'Nice Half-Sister'...how would you react if I decided to give her Your Former Miraculous? Oh, you got angry...Again...AND you finally pissed off Adrien enough so much that he no longer considers you a friend...meaning I can FINALLY Date him now? 😱 ...All according to plan! 😈 Now, on one hand, that was all writer's choice, and it's never Explicitly called out that Marinette did intent to end Adrien's 1st and longest running friendship...but I feel like it was Heavily Implied! The Astruc put pen to paper, yet Mari's likeability was the thing that suffered the most! 💔
dersoin could be a retcon but marinette did act the way she did around on luka when she first met him she stammered around luka when she first met him and knows luka has no connection to chole that's why she isn't creppy with him
Marinette doesn't deserve the hate, Thomas Astruc deserves the harsh criticism he so viciously ignores and refutes. That's why he made an entire pity party episode dedicated to himself to demonize his fans. He literally has a self insert.
marinette was creppy in the shanghi special but she got consenquenses she got her stuff stolen and din't get to see adrien until the end of the episode
Have not watched the show in a long time, def found myself caught in a few of those points. I can’t particularly separate Marinette as a character in universe versus the writing decisions made through her, I just dislike them both together, but I’ll admit I liked a lot of point you made and has me rethinking the exact reasons I should dislike her. Maybe I’ll rewatch the series, I still think this show is interesting. Thanks for the video man
2:37 yeah their show what not to too Yup double standards in fandom Adrien Harasses someone: Thats cool Marinette : Poision her, Drown her, Bash her in head
5:54 Because " he always loses, hes cring" you feel bad for the character, he needs justice " Mary sue, always win" like Its way more annoying and you don't really feel bad for her cuz she has everything ya know Like yeah they could both be improved by writing changes um just saying I think that's why there's a different attitude
Hey Smarty, I agree to an extent. Whilst there is a double standard within the fandon of how they critique Marinette compared to everyone else, I think you need to acknowledge & understand the double standard held by the writers & the reasoning for the fandom's aggresion. The show typically shows Marinette as one whom can do no wrong & if she does she immediately rectifies it with no proper consequence, Like you yourself mention this in your thoughts on her in the london special vid. And especially with the creators especially thomas Marinette is shown to be this perfect badass queen, Ontop of her getting the most screentime. Whereas other characters whom get less screentime are presented as those with flaws, Chat's pushiness, Chloé's bullying, Alya & Nino whom are unable to keep secrets. And the show & creators address these character & others as wrong in their situations, Whereas the show typically doesn’t hold Marinette accountable, Leaving it to the fans to hold her accountable for her misdeeds. Chat's been called out for his pushiness & creepiness in Glaciator 2.0 & Kuro Neko, Chloe's been called out for her bullying in All of S4 & S5, Alya & Nino were both held accountable & called out for their unability to keep secrets in The S4 Finale. Whilst i agree with you that Marinette is NOT Responsible for Chloe's actions in the finale or post that but with the show & its characters & creators not calling out marinette or holding her accountable, the only ones to do so are the fans. Plus she has more screentime so that's why fans pick & prod at her the most
I think what happens is that, because Marinette is the main character, she ends up becoming the lightning rod character for the whole show. Everything revolves around her. And because of that, any and all flaws almost appear to the audience like they where designed only to make her look better. So even bad decisions that make Marinete look worst, give the impression that it's meant to make her look good/better then everyone else, and people resent that. But yeah, Marinette is just as much a victim of bad writing as everyone else.
11:24 I have a genuine belief that it's because that's how people are in real life. To be terrible means we already know you're terrible, so when you do something good, it's a pleasant surprise. Likewise it's a pleasant association, we're more likely to want them to succeed and want to give them the space to better themself. But when you know a good person, who has never done wrong, and they suddenly do something bad, it's an irreversible betrayal of the trust you had in them. Irl you are far more likely to be outwardly negative to someone who betrayed you, and more wary of being overly negative about someone who has done something good when they are normally terrible, for fear of reversing their progress. It's not nearly that dramatic when applied to media, however I have a feeling that our real life biases of how we'd react in this situation affects how we view characters. It is quite unfair honestly. I feel it myself as being someone who always wants to do the best for the people around me. But when I snap or muck up, I tend to feel the heat more than I see in people who don't get reprimanded since they are often like that. It's like in jobs when you do a lot of work, you get more fire if you don't complete your work, as opposed to someone who may never do work, who may get more praise when they do something well. Just my theory at least :)
People really got a "don't hate the character, hate the writer" attitude. Why? Can we keep the hate in the fictional world please? We don't need anymore irl hate.
Truely it is frustrating to fall in love with a series then have that all stripped away from you in the worst way possible ChatNoir: from flirtatious superhero to “yeah I choose the bear” Chloe: from misunderstood antihero to an actual demon child (i swear they took the arch she was supposed to have and divided it between felix and zoe) And marinette: from a loveable teen with a relatable inability to talk to her crush to a pick-me stalker mary-sue 💔
@@watermelon3266 her being a Mary sue and a stalker contradict each other… anyways her stalking does not even exist anymore so I don’t even know why ppl bring it up.
I don't understand why they gave Marinette a development in Season 5 if she's just going to stalk Adrien again in season 6 as seen in the trailer 💀
tbf this show can never stick to its character development
maybe wait till you see the full picture
Sorry but what development?
You don't know that. Wait until you watch season 6.
@@mayotango1317 she pretty much stops stalking Adrien after Mr pigeon 72 and the other times she did stalk him "Gabriel agreste" "Risk" and "Emotion" she (A) is trying to stop Chloe from keeping him out of school (B) She was under an akumitized villains influence. (C) she was suspicious of his father being controlling and turns out she was right at the end of the episode. And you could argue that Marinette got no consequences, but cmon, are you guys really going to keep scaling the consequences of a cartoon with those real life? People have called out Marinette multiple times (tikki,alya). And on top of it all losing all of the miraculous because of her obsession with Adrien was HUGE for her. At the the beginning of season 5 she said she's done with all the crazy Adrien plans and that's exactly what happens. But all you guys care about I Marinette getting exposed as a stalker and her going to to jail. You do realize that practically kill adrienette when it comes to broadcasting right? Thomas fucked up with Marinettes character in earlier seasons. It you aren't willing to meet astruc halfway through with the effort they made to improve the character then that's on you.
I think the reason Adrian is less criticized than Marinette, is because the show punishes him enough. Not necessarily about his shit "nice guy" behavior, but his life sucks. The show constantly depicts his life as restrictive, lonely, isolating, emotionally neglecting, and with a tiger parent who both expects perfection, and yet refuses to validate any of your emotions or personality. We see Adrian go through all this and realize Chat Noir is Adrian's escape. The him that gets to let loose and act on all his impulses, including acting on his feelings for a girl. Which isn't okay. But he has no social practice or ability to regulate his emotions, so we're more lenient/ sad when things don't go his way, because it hurts seeing this boy suffer even more than he already was.
Still not okay, but it's a reason.
Marinette on the other hand, has a relatively great life. She has multiple friends. A class that cares about her. Her grades are awesome. Her family adores her, she has an AMAZING room. And she has passions she can indulge in and is good at! Her life is fantastic on paper!
So when she is depicted as a creepy stalker girl, who's constantly drooling over Adrian with no good reason as to why she's this way. And a narriative that constantly rewards her for it (steals his phone, ends up going to a trip with him. Trying to ruin his friendship with Kagami ends up making her sit next to him at a movie. SNIFFING HIS PILLOW, Leads to her DATING him. And finally the wax statue incident: is the reason he LOVES HER?!?! This is all bullshit and VERY concerning behavior and she should not be rewarded over it!!!
Finally, the last reason we feel more for Adrian than Marinette, is because Adrian NEVER fully outright regects Marinette. At least not in the show (the movie does.). Where as Ladybug, Marinette is regecting Chat Noir CONSTANTLY. He gets put down again and again. Meanwhile, Adrian never puts Marinette down and always keeps her close "as a friend." Until he starts dating her in season 5. He never learns about all the creepy shit this girl is doing in the background. Memorizing his schedule (how did she get that...) stealing his property. Going through the trash to look for a note he tosses. Ruining his friendships/ relationships with other girls. (Lilah and Kagami). Chat Noir although up front, is HONEST about his emotions and tells her to her face. The one time he messes with a boy who might like Ladybug (a photographer in season 1) he is punished HARD by the narrative and he never tries that again. Where Marinette will try that same tactic, constantly.
All in all, its the deception and double standards that get on a lot of people's nerves. As well as their backgrounds that make people hate Marinette more than Adrian.
Narritive awards her Copycat fair enough , uhm depends what special your talking but that wasn't a reward , and that entire plan back fired she only got in because she nice to the fictional thomas astruc , amd she had to fix the timeline. Fair enough
Well Alya called her out on it in Risk and she stops with the behaviour she and she has realized her mistake and at the same time Lila was lying well she has to thats the function of the main character they need yo have repeat certain mistakes as the audience is young
Double standards
The Fandom
Adrien Harasses Ladybug after she tells him to stop: thats cool
Marinette throws him in the Bin after repeatly telling him to stop with the harassment : Poision her, Drown her, Bash her in the head
@@Owell_Owl That's the thing. The fandom can see that Adrien has a viable explanation for what he's done from episode 1. Adrien is not socially aware of anything due to his upbringing and minimal social interactions with people his age. Adrien doesn't know he's crossing boundaries untill Ladybug tells him to stop, which he does in Glaciator 2
@@Owell_Owl but Ladybug several times says that she rejects Cat Noir flirting bc the bad timing, but at the same time we had the bonus in the NY special when she decided to went off her anger during a battle. And what happened there? Cat Noir killed somebody bc she distracted him.
She says things like I would never lie to you, and then Cat noir discovered that she kissed him in "prime queen" when he saw the picture. She had to forcefully kiss him (something really personal for not just a teenager) and she didn't tell him anything about it.
She felt quite terrible about it She said "I was saving not kissing you"
@@Owell_Owl bc Nadja was saying that it was love.
The problem here is that she never talk about it with him, they were partners and she kept keeping secrets, and when felix tried to kiss her she felt awfull and rightfully rejected him.
But she forcefully kiss Cat Noir and she never felt she had to talk about it. Maybe she felt bad about it or bc people believed they had a relationship, but she never felt she had to speak with Cat Noir.
The true is that Ladybug doesn't seem to care about Cat Noir feelings.
Marinette’s problem is the same as Chloe’s- Thomas Astruc. He hates that Marinette isn’t liked by the fandom so retaliates by making her a Mary Sue, and hates that Chloe is popular so he makes her into an unrealistic villain.
I think more he liked the more unlikable version of Chloe as a character and keeps trying to explain as to why the audience should ALSO like that version better than the more nuanced portrayal of the character.
He wrote the whole “damnation arc” thinking the audience would be fine with it… We all know how much the fanbase loves the character and their more NUANCED self. Couple that with the shallow reasons for her betrayal and hyperbolic comparisons to Donald Trump, abusers and agreeing with someone comparing her to rapists lead the fanbase to slowly turn against the creator and their involvement with their own creation with a TON of other missteps with a multitude of other characters contributing to this.
He wanted to have his cake and eat it too: Make the character more nuanced for a while to make their betrayal sting all the more while being able to go back to the “golden years” of the character’s more flat self. The two are FUNDAMENTALLY incompatible and the version he wrote season 4 onward is a apparent flanderization of the character in a way that reflects no sort of “realism” the story is apparently going for.
She is not a Mary sue
She kinda is a little bit like the world does kinda bend to her whim at times not every time but most times
marinette isn't a mary sue she isn't good at everything is bad at raping chienese and other things get consanqeunes doesn't get closer to adrien when she is creppy with him makes a permemant enemy out of lila in voplina the world get's destroyed in cat blanc etc the people online in reunion don't like her neither does the past ladybug miraclous holder she has flaws that are nesscarcy to the story like not being able to control her emotions she isn't over idealised or over skilled
@@michalelkin-bronner7958 Well there is also a thing called “Narrative weight” that makes examples like that of the online posts against ladybug seem like a flat plot device not meant to be considered by the audience.
Alix’s brother’s concerns aren’t treated as understandable, but is something that is emphasized to be seen as social media irrationality.
I would say that the writers deserve the hate more because they refuse to accept constructive criticism in regards to writing Marinette's character. One of the most egregious examples of the poor writing decisions done to her character is that for most of the show, they almost never portray her unhealthy obsession with Adrien as wrong because it's supposed to be 'funny'. Well, just because somethign is supposed to be 'funny', it doesn't mean it couldn’t potentially be harmful towards viewers, ESPECIALLY if the target audience are children who are just starting school.
EDIT 2: chucking this at the top. If you want to see someone influenced enough by the show to downplay Marinettes stalking, theyre in my replies. The way this show is raising people is not a joke.
From what I've seen, the fandom doesn't hate Marinette for being Marinette. They resent the writers for their decisions surrounding Marinette. Most people, when it comes to "hating Marinette", have a more nuanced view on it. That Marinette is simply a product of Zag Entertainment, and a product that embodies many of the writing inconsistencies, plot holes and value problems the company injects into the show. Most fans can justify their dislike for her. "She's a stalker who instead of having to learn her actions are wrong, was given a traumatic backstory by the writers to excuse or even justify her actions." "When other characters do wrong to Marinette, they are disproportionately punished. But when Marinette does the same to others, she is praised for her actions." Many fans have constructive and thought out reasons for why they find her to be such a dislikeable character. I rarely see hate for Marinette that isn't justified by a well thought out argument.
EDIT: I think the reason why Chat Noir's character is not "hated" as much for his weird nice-guy behavior towards Ladybug in season 3-4 (as you mention at 3:59) is because Chat Noir does receive "writing punishment" for his behavior. His screen time is detracted, his agency and importance is retracted. Narratively, Ladybug keeps him at an arms length when she realises he's being serious about his feelings for her. It's also acknowledged at some point, with Chat Noir expressing frustration about how difficult it is for him to get over her, and how she has to be patient with him as he does so. It's never outright addressed the way it should be which is disappointing, but why would it be when the stalker behavior is more than justified?
And just how is this 14/16 yr old girl suppose to learn to recognize her mistakes between: Crushing, saving France/sometimes other places, helping out with her family's business, getting bullied, school and homework, tryin to maintain friendships, baby sitting, training with her master, doing extra curricular activities here and there like design contest, school trips, trying to figure out who hawk moth is, and o she is female so let's not forget that one thing that happens once a month! I could really go on and on listing more things but unless she gets a therapist and maybe medication if needed she's not gonna actually change unless given the real help she needs to deal with her emotions and hormones properly!,And also yes all the characters are products!, XD products of experinces of real people created to tell a story and sell toys!, these are fictional characters and cannot speak or act for themselves dud like honestly!
From what i've seen. People don't even care about the writers atp. So many people rn hate Marinette as if she's a real person that chose to do all these decisions and not like shes a fictional character who's choices are dictated by the writers. Its actually sad at this point.
@@kaekaesam6240 U say all that like Adrian doesn't have responsibilities mind u she chose to take on extraordinary amount of activities she didn't have to choose to so she can't really blame anyone but herself except for being ladybug and guardian the rest was her own choice
Oh no I hate her character and I also don't like the writers decisions
@@reviewsandtheories4941she didn’t chose to be guardian nor to be ladybug she accepted it as her responsibility she has a life mind you she likes designing and knitting them out and I think they make her commit these actions because she doesn’t get the time to see her options out and think them through unlike when she is ladybug she takes things seriously but marionette is a child she wants to enjoy and live her life with mistakes or not and she wants to learn from her mistakes
It’s more of the writers fault for this but I’d really like it if Marinette wasn’t a Mary Sue all the time and actually learned from her mistakes. I really hope S6 fixes this.
I would like it if they dial back the Mary sueness and actually have her realize her flaws
Writer needs to stop giving her special treatment
She isn't a Mary sue
It's more so astruck and the executives that are now on the show, because if you look back at season 2 were the writers were mostly left to their own devices, you can see with Chloé that they can ABSOLUTELY make a master piece. It's just astuck's ego won't let anyone up stage mari-sue, especially Chloé.
@@dizzyheads I don't like Marinette's character but she isn't really a Mary Sue, especially season 5 spending a lot of time focussing on her flaws, especially with losing the Kwamis.
She is not a Mary sue
Can you imagine if Chloe and Marinette both changed and were actually friends? It would make better content, in my opinion.
Or even just Chloe is a better person. They don’t have to be friends but they could get along. She’s still got the rich girl attitude but she’s not bullying anyone.
@@aromaladyellie So true! Maybe her mom controlling her life is the push she needs to become a better person. Maybe she'll try to become a better person, but it's sad it has to be through allowing her to go through more abuse with her mom.
@aromaladyellie having them get along or be “friendly rivals” would have been better than Thomas destroying her. I could imagine an AU where Chloe isn’t a full on mean girl but still uses insult humor from time to time
@happyblackwoman6154 I agreed with that. Plus, the story would give Chloé and Marinette some interesting characterization to work out their issues with each other.
I don't think it makes sense for them to be friends right off the bat since chloe spent years hating on marinette, she could evolve into no longer hating marinette and stopping bullying her.
From what I see, most of the things that make fans angry have to do with the choices of the ones making the show, and since Marinete is the protagonist and sometimes even "takes up" the screen time of others this makes these problems turn to her because the focus is always on her. Some things about her character do have some problems, but it's true that sometimes the problem is in the writing and the direction of the story, not in her, but as I mentioned, she is the protagonist, so she ends up being part of it.
There's this thing with winx club where we make fun of Bloom being a greedy girl stealing everyone screen time for herself... i swear it could totally apply to marinette / ladybug 🤣
The key difference is Marinette is less sympathetic, but Adrien and Chloe are. That’s where the writing fails. In the world of the show, the other two are punished, some might argue too harshly, for bad behaviors, but Marinette is consistently excused or justified for hers. To an absurd level.
The great irony is, much in the same way Chloe is excused of bad behaviors because she’s the mayor’s daughter, Marinette is excused for bad behaviors because she’s Astruc’s “daughter.” This contributes to classmates disliking Chloe, and fans disliking Marinette. And so, the more Marinette’s bad behaviors are “justified,” the more unsympathetic she becomes, because it’s not fair. Chloe gets sent away, Adrien gets thrown in the trash, but Marinette gets to be guardian when she fails, and Su Han’s apology when she causes the literal end of the world. This, when combined with the aforementioned cringe factor probably makes a lot of people quick to condemn her and forget that this too is a product of bad writing. My 50c.
Thanks you.
That's what I've tried to say.
What she does isn't justifued foes show why yes does make she did right no and she has already faced the conseqences so give it a rest and if she an imanginary daughter like why is that good reason to hate her
Owl it's because astruc hates it when his fictional daughter is hated so just being petty
Facts👏
@@Owell_Owldon’t act like she’s a real person who actually suffers for all the hate, let people have fun with their disdain for a fictional character lmao especially when he deserves it
The only person who deserved hate is Thomas Astruc.
I think he could handle people hating on him far better than people hating his fictional daughter.
@@SilthurnixAgreed.
• I don't dislike Marinette but I do dislike how she's been written.
In the beginning, I liked how quirky and a little klutzy she could be, as well as the potential she had for growth.
However, her character writing began to deteriorate overtime in her personality and her decisions.
• First off, her infatuation with Adrien.
It started off as your average girl crush but it quickly turned into an unhealthy obsession along with her stalkerish tendencies.
Her character began to have a one track mind that solely revolved around Adrien and nothing more.
One minute Marinette is capable of sound minded reason, but once Adrien is mentioned, she loses all sense of reason and only cares about Adrien and doing everything to earn his favour even if those decisions could be damaging to her or someone else.
Her relentless pursuit of Adrien and her written decisions being Adrien motivated made her character seem no different to Gabriel's obsession with Emilie, which at this point would make many wonder that if anything were to happen to Adrien would Marinette follow the same path as Gabriel.
Now it's not uncommon for a main character to have a love interest or infatuation towards another character but how Marinette's infatuation experience has been written has gone from being cute to being creepy and concerning.
• Second, the way Marinette's character has been written to refrain from her facing consequences for critical decisions that could grant her growth.
Many of Marinette's choices have had consequences or have affected other people severely, but instead of facing a certain form of accountability, a justification is made to make it seem like Marinette is not wrong for what she did or it's someone else's fault or it seems to have been forgotten like it never happened and everything is okay.
For example, Marinette's VERY CONCERNING stalking habit.
This habit should have been confronted and corrected in the beginning but it was later given the justification of it being due to past trauma.
Now, I can understand certain habits being developed due to trauma, and if they had identified the trauma as being the cause of Marinette's stalking habit but still confronting her that this habit is NOT okay and to put a stop to it, then that would have been okay.
However, they just used the trauma as a way to justify Marinette's stalking, did not confront nor correct it and left it like Marinette didn't do anything wrong.
Not only that, the character Kim was made into something of a sacrificial plot lamb which left inconsistencies in the story.
Now, if Marinette had such a bad history with Kim then she would have had reservations about trusting him with a Miraculous, but from the looks of things, there was no such issue and Marinette trusted him wholeheartedly.
In a way, Marinette hasn't been written in quite a realistic way or in a way that helps her character grow well through the story.
I would almost say that the writers gave Marinette's character a kind of "Golden Child" treatment where:
1. She can do no wrong.
2. She doesn't have to learn much of a lesson unless the writers think she should learn it but not because she needs to.
3. If she does make a critical mistake by her own choices then it's either not confronted, is someone else's fault, she's in some way justified to it or it's magically erased like it never happened.
4. She's given some random scenarios of growth when it's not quite clear how she's earned that growth at times.
Etc.....
These factors along with others could be what infuriates fans most especially when Marinette's flaws seem to end up trying to be written off as funny when it's actually concerning, and if someone speaks up about these concerns, it suddenly taken as a personal attack at the writers professionality of sorts and as a result the concerns are either ignored or the writers seem to double down on these severe flaws.
I think they seem to mix up the factor of caring about the character with liking the character.
They want Marinette to be likable protagonist but they're neglecting in caring about how she's written which as a result makes her less likable over time to fans.
Marinette may be the protagonist but the writers seem to be trying to make her into this flawless figure which if anything is crippling her character and puts her in somewhat of a negative light with viewers.
In fact, the times that the writers LET Marinette learn a lesson, the lesson in question almost falls under a category of being common knowledge by then, but when it comes to the moments where that lesson serves as a significant growth to her character, it's seen as irrelevant somehow which makes her character deteriorate further especially when it comes to a point where that neglected lesson could have helped a great deal in one of her critical decisions.
At this point, no one wants Marinette to be flawless or get everything right. All that is requested is for Marinette to written right, to have these severe flaws acknowledged and corrected to give Marinette the significant growth needed as well as giving the other characters a significant growth as well.
If that growth can't be granted, then we probably don't have to imagine too hard how season 6 might go as Marinette may just be written to repeat these mistakes or increase the severity of some of her critical flaws.
She has faecd conseqences
I agree with all of this! I don't particularly hate her more so tired of her. I just hope one day it gets a remake with better writers cause it would fix almost all the issues with this series
Well although some things easily be done chloè redemption etc other things such as Adrien isn't possible with the target audience and there people who says things such Luka being a blue hair Adrien and I'm like yeah that was what they were trying do
@@Owell_OwlWhat?
@@Owell_Owl you didnt make any sense bro, retype
I wish I could enjoy watching Marinette, but how she's written 90% of the time literally makes me cringe. I hate the writing, not the fictional character.
8:40 Nope, Marinette was only terrified of Chloe in the movie. In the series Chloe was barely taken seriously and we even see Marinette mocking her. I would even say that Chloe was Lila's "Sabrina" and she barely knew what was going on around her until his last scene in the jet aircraft.
Honestly in season three we see Marinette ignoring and being neglectful of Chloe in the same way she will later do with Chat Noir in season four; for Dupain-Cheng only her "friends" deserve to be part of her club.
The only difference is that with Chloe we saw consequences of it while Chat Noir easily forgave her for being his simp and it was all ignored in season 5 when he "fell in love" with Marinette out of nowhere.
Ok marinette was terrified of her, especially after she met alya, he could've worded that beyter
@@RileyT-23The movie work better that the show.
she was scared of her in the show
@@michalelkin-bronner7958 You mean "scared of Lila". The bathroom scene in Chameleon is still creepy.
We don’t hate Marinette-we hate how Marinette’s flaws are never treated as flaws and how she never grows as a character.
All of the “good” characters love Marinette. Only the “bad” ones hate her. And everyone always forgives or hand-waves any bad behavior that Marinette shows. When she stalks Adrien or manipulates those around him out of jealousy, we’re told it’s because of love. When she uses her Miraculous for selfish purposes and ruins everything, we’re told it’s because of love. When she lies to Adrien and Paris about Gabe, we’re told it’s because of love.
None of these things are ever acknowledged by other characters as bad actions, despite the fact that they absolutely are. I’ve seen fanfics that accurately compare Marinette’s possessive, controlling, manipulative behavior towards Adrien to Gabriel’s own treatment of him. She makes it her mission to secretly know everything about him. She invades his privacy without any care for his feelings. She keeps him in the dark about his family and his identity simply because she thinks he’s better off believing a lie.
I kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette2
Gabriel does shit for love, that doesn’t make it justified… I was gonna say “why isn’t Mari held to the same standard” but she kinda is considering how much Gabriel got away with in the end BECAUSE OF HER!
She has grown
@@Owell_OwlNo.
Yes she has like Marinette at the start she usually happy and bubbly while nowadays she's has self essteem issues and is doubting herself and is almost despresssed quite a bit of the time
Wait, why blame a character? They're CHARACTERS, they don't decide anything, the WRITER does
THIS.
Anyone else feel gross thinking about how this show was made _for kids_ as its target audience, and yet they have Marinette being a creepy stalker, Adrien being a Nice Guy™ in some of the middle seasons, Chloe as an irredeemable bully despite her abusive parents, Lila being a psychopathic manipulator, and Gabriel being an abusive father AND a terrorist?
And that's only scratching the surface. There's a LOT of oddly creepy or messed up things in this show, and NONE OF IT is handled with the maturity or nuance it requires. They treat it like its nothing, despite this show's main audience being _children._ Yes, children _can_ handle darker themes a lot more than people give it credit for, but it requires a lot more care than they give. It feels straight up irresponsible how they portray these things.
I don't want to sound like a Karen (I don't even have kids), but seriously is no one else really bothered by this? This show makes me feel gross inside sometimes, and I'm a grown adult. Imagine being a kid and seeing the main character role model sniffing their crush's pillow... I shudder to think what kind of message they would take away from that.
Well they need to that to show children what not to do
We all handle things some won't get upset doesn't mean another won't get upset about it thats why they usually try comic relief with things like Marinette's Depressed voicmail in transmission or Sneaking to the party in Gabriel Agreste like i got shown a zombie movie and i couldn't sleep that night but somehow with the way I've been raised I have the strength to watch shows with Murder,Shooting etc at the age of around 10 ,30 mins before sleeping other people wouldn't able to that
@@Owell_Owl While I do agree that kids need to know what not to do...
Marinette is the protagonist. She is a superhero AND an everyday superhero. Yes, she is clearly flawed. Yes, kids will pick up on that. But Marinette is still the protagonist, and if she doesn't get punished for doing something bad or creepy, then kids might think those actions are ok. Personally, I think seasons 1-2 were fine. Season 3 was somewhat ok I think. Everything after that probably shouldn't be watched by kids at all.
That being said, there are tons of other kids' TV shows out there. I don't think one outlier is going to do that much damage. But the writers really should've thought that one through more. Well, they should've thought everything through more. They had the recipe for a fantastic show with memorable characters and mostly blew it.
Well she has had conseqences for it and attempts at "stalking" get her nowhere with Adrien and Alya also calls her out on it in Risk
@@Owell_OwlMeh, Marinette should be in jail.
I understand that Disney is pretty much a corrupted company nowadays, but they seriously censorship Bluey over Miraculous
I actually genuinely dislike Marinette because of her actions in lying to Adrien and the entire world. Then I look at all her bad actions in the past and then I get angry at the character. Same happened with Gabriel, his actions in both Ephemeral and everything after that point with alliance and the s5 finale genuinely disgust me and then i look onto shit like Bubbler and get even angrier about it. Not my favorites, that is very clear.
I have a question for you. Do you also hate Felix and Kagami? Let me tell you this, these two hypocrites knew everything way before Marinette did and they didn’t tel anyone. They only showed Marinette that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Felix trash is literally Adriens cousin and knew Gabriel was hawkmoth from the start and also knew Adrien was a senti. Felix keeps saying he does everything for Adrien, yet doesn’t even let him know anything. Talk abt a hypocrite
People what's with the hate comments
Idt anyone is a hypocrite ....
Uk that's cos everyone in the show had their own reasons to do whatever they did.
In the end Gabriel did all this for Emilie and he also disappears at the end of season 5
Plus tbh Felix and kagami are the cutest thing ever
And about marinette..
Who said her life is great? Did u guys even see the first few episodes of season 4
The things she went through after becoming a guardian were too hectic and her life is totally amazing!!
I agree at times she made terrible mistakes which she could have reverted if she wasn't blind but we all are forgetting in the end she was a teenager too and had alot in her plate!!
Not being rude..
@@muichirotokito5624 Agreed. I am not totally mad at them yet but I might be if Felix doesn't speak tf up in future. And Kagami too, Adrien should know he's a senti.
@@fateena2908 About Gabriel. Did he really have to torture his son with all the modelling, learning chinese, fencing, giving him a pen 3 years in a row to his birthday, forcing him to obey using the rings, that shit -> S4 finale: Nearly sending him onto a months long tour despite his resentment, S5 finale -> Sending him into a psychiatric prison cell in literally London while making him suffer under the Alliance rings, might I add while not even knowing he's Cat Noir, just doing this all for fun? And let me not even mention the things he would've done in Cat Blanc and Ephemeral.
As for Marinette, I was talking about her weird and creepy stalker shenanigans. I now see them more poignant, not the stress she had in S4, I forgive her for all that.
I don't think you should hate her because yes he definitely deserves to know since it is his father but I think after chat blanc her whole perspective changed, and I'm sure when she went to tell adrien she remembered that, cause not only did his father die but he was also the villan, and adrien doesn't handle his emotions all that trauma is a sure akumatization.So that's probably why mari is being reluctant on telling him, but hopefully it gets resolved
I think the reason that so many fans hate Marinette and criticize her so much over Adrien or Chole is simply because she is never treated as being in the wrong, she makes bad choices and does bad things to other people, like stalking, and it is never addressed or in the case of her stalking Adrien even justified, its intentional bad writing. The reason why people go easy on Adrien or Chole is simply because when they do something wrong the narrative addresses it and punishes them for it, even if it isn't addressed enough, like in the case of Adrien being a "nice guy". Whereas with Marinette it is never addressed and she is never treated as being in the wrong. Combine that with her getting the majority of the shows focus and you can see why that's frustrating for people, nobody likes a Mary sue, and that is what Marinette became in the latter seasons of the show.
She's been called by Adrien,Alya and Tikki
@@Owell_Owl and that was when the shows writing is at its best, season 1, 2, and to lesser degree 5, all have Marinette make mistakes and get called out on them, but the show still refuses to address a lot of Marinette's other issue, like the stalking, and she is still treated as perfect a majority of the time. It doesn't matter if a Mary sue isn't treated as always being in the right every now and then, if they are still treated as always being in the right a majority of the time even when their not, and that is very frustrating thing. In fact I would say its more frustrating, because the show still shows potential for good writing, it just chooses not to.
The "stalking"was adressed in the season 4 finale by Alya she definitely not like they do show that yeah there is definitely things that this can be done like Chloè redemption but we can't ask everything too like Adrien being not possible with this target audience though he should be used and also people things about the show such as Luka is just blue haired Adrien and I'm like"Yeah that was they were trying do that was the point"
@@Owell_Owl Just because the stalking is addressed as bad once doesn't mean anything, my point that I am trying to make partially is that the show goes out of its way to make Marinette look good and not punish her for things that other characters would be punished for, they literally spend an entire episode trying to justify her stalking Adrien. That's frustrating for a lot of people, which is my point. It doesn't matter if Alya calls it out once or twice because Marinette never faces any consequences for it and is never punished for it. Imagine if a guy was stalking Marinette and knows everything about her schedule, do you think the show wouldn't rightfully punish the guy for being a creep.
She has faced conseqences whenever she "stalks" Adrien it gets her nowhere like in the Shanghai special because what she wants to do is creepy she doesn't get to do that like the only scene they are together as Marinette and Adrien is the ending of it like just because she isn't in jail or people aren't screaming qt her does not mean she faces no conseqences she usually has to say sorry and / or rectify her mistake like in cat Blanc she breaks into Adrien's rom causes a disruption in the timeline and Bunnyx has to drag her to the alternate future to fix it they aren't Justifying her actions Does it show us why she acted like that ?yes Does it make what she was doing right ?no
Marinette isn't the problem. Astruc is.
He's such a man child when it comes to constructive criticism. He doesn't listen to what fans have to say about any of his characters, especially Marinette. That's his golden child, and doesnt give a damn about how she acts (towards others) or whether she grows as a character. As long as she's the main focus. Like....he literally booted Adrien from being a main character to being under Alya.
I've began to resent the character of Mari in the series because of him. And why I've began taking a liking to Movie Mari. She's better written, has development, isn't a Mary-sue/prodigy child. Zag listened to what fans had to say, heck maybe even read some fan rewrites and made her character more likable and someone we can sympathise with, without that fake backstory.
Astruc just needs to be fired period
@@_.xhoneybabyx._3946 bffr Zag is even worse 💀
@@dangerbuffrocky is he? Damn
@@dangerbuffrockyHow is Jeremy Zag worst than Thomas
She is not a Mary sue
@@Owell_Owl S4-5, I mean
So along as the fans ain’t attacking any of the VAs, we won’t have any problems… but the people of Twitter will find someway to push the wrong buttons.
Another fandom problem like there people sending Zoè's voice actor she even had to say" I'm not the character like provide her voice but thats it"
Unironically Marinette doesn't deserve hate , Chloe doesn't deserve hate, kim adrien , lila , felix and even zoe doesn't deserve hate , astruc is just a weirdo . Imagine how many other artists in france alone could have a show
Frankly I can imagine an adult Marinette becoming the new Hawk Moth if something happens to her Adrien. With Alya as her Nathalie.
Now that would be a great series finale.
She and Grabiel are like two sides of the same coin. From her humble origins with fashion dreams to constantly lying to Adrien and only preferring an idealized version of him. That's why I got chills watching her create an akuma in the Paris special.
Reminder, Felix, Natalie and Kagami all knew this information way before Marinette. They didn’t tell anyone LOL. Felix and Kagami trash only showed that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Hypocrite Felix tells Kagami gabes identity and that she and Adrien are sentis. Yet he can’t do it for his own cousin who he is supposedly doing everything for. Marinette shouldn’t be the one to tell him anything. Those garbage 3 characters I mentioned should. First Felix should ACTUALLY tell Adrien he is a senti, not by doing some dumb play, then a couple months after, Nathalie can tell Adrien that she was mayura and Gabriel was hawkmoth. None of this is in Marinette place to tell
@@muichirotokito5624 The funny thing is that Marinette quickly forgot about that play that Kagami and Felix did, it would have made more sense if it had been for Adrien.
The fact that Kagami also kept the truth from her seems very out of character for someone as brutally honest and honorable as she is.
@@mayotango1317that’s the thing, their play can be interpreted in so many different ways. If only they could’ve told her 1 on 1. Also Felix and Kagami didn’t show that play for adriens sake, hawkmoths identity (horribly told) or even them being sentis. They only showed her that so that they can be allowed to date without Gabriel’s judgement. Wtf is wrong w Felix and Kagami bruh.
@@muichirotokito5624 Kagami was butchered this season. Fro fan fav to nothing more than a love interest to a third rate character.
Don't forget how they both are very controlling
I love Marinette! I don't like her actions, but I love her.
same!!
Now that's some positivity out here! What a rare sight
@@waitthatsillegal.7552 Thank you! That's so nice of you to say. 🤗❤️❤️
@@MelodyMeadows11037 Same here
At this point, fixing her writing doesn't do much for me; she missed opportunities to acknowledge (and perhaps face the consequences of) her mistakes. We're 6 SEASONS IN, so it says a lot if the main character has always had poor writing.
She has faced conseqences
@@Owell_Owlnot enough for some people and for me too, if they address the stalking and she gets punish for it IN THE REAL WAY now where talking
@@dangdongtatoy3747 she isnt a mary sue she got all the miraculas taken away because of love for adrian and because of cloies bullying she got trama 2
Just because they don't satisfy you does not mean it's not a conseqence
@@AarnaAmbardar-n5d plea-se the trauma came out of nowhere no foreshadowing no nothing just a episode for making us feel bad but it has the opposite effect on others like me it's kinda scummy that's why I prefer the movie version of Mari but never NEVER the series
I agree. Marinette is a great character who suffers from the writing. She is a kid who makes mistakes but does everything she can to do good and be a good friend. She and everyone else in the show deserves better than what the writing deteriorated into.
Chloe I sympathise because she’s a neglected child . She is doing what she can to be seen by her parents . And maybe that means she is doing bad but that dosent mean she is bad , we have seen her inner depths and the only reason why she dowubles down on bad behaviour is because her own role model has decided she isn’t exceptional by not letting her be queen bee .
I think part of the hate comes from how almost everything in the writing is used to build marinette up and will bring other characters down to make her look better
If they had included Adrien in the finale, the hate for Marinette wouldn't be this big
Eh I doubt that. She could pick vanilla ice cream over chocolate and people will still have something to say
@@josratubangura Real 😭
True tbh, Marinette was the reason I started watching the show. Unlike the majority of the fandom, I actually quite enjoy her "stalkerish scenes" because I just love the cringe in general. It's not written in a serious way so I never thought it was promting harmful behavior or anything. But gaslighting your boyfriend into worshipping his abuser is just beyond icky even for me
@@Gustypisces that’s not gaslighting, it’s lying
@@josratubangura I meant gaslighting from Adrien's perspective. Because of Marinette’s weird decision to honour Adrien's abuser wish over Adrien's agency, he's now going to gaslight himself into rationalizing all the abuse he has faced for years. Now that his father is considered a "hero" he's going to think every horrible thing Gabriel has ever done is for "Adrien's own good" which is such a problematic take for an abuse victim
I think one of the reasons people hold Marinette to a higher standard than the likes of Adrien and Chloe is because of how she's been favoured by the writing. She takes up unnecessary screentime, even for the protagonist. Her flaws aren't treated like flaws nearly enough as they should be. While she does make mistakes, her punishments aren't as bad as they would be if she were somebody else. It's like the writers don't want to acknowledge how bad her negative traits can be, and so she's criticised a lot more than the rest of the cast. If the others were treated more fairly, I don't think she'd stick out so much.
I think the Adrien/Marinette double standard is because Marinette is treated well, and also has far more agency. It's easier to be angry at a character who you think has it easy than one you think does not. And when you have Astruc making statements like 'The executives are resisting letting Adrien be a main character.'
Most people hate on Marinette after the wish and not telling Adrien what happened, but like, Felix adriens cousin who knew everything for way longer doesn’t tell him either 😂😂😂
I think everybody hate her by the wax statue scene.
Not only that but he HELPED Gabe in the season 4 finale. Also, Nathalie & Kagami know too
@@mayotango1317oh it’s you again
@@josratubangura Ik. That’s why I hate all 3 of those characters
I think its bc Marinette is of course expected to act better than a gray character who didnt show up until s3. She is, the MAIN main character
Like I said before, I personally don't hate her. I just see her as a bit of a misguided child placed in an inconvenient circumstance that needs a closer and level headed mentor. She has good intentions, she loves her family, she cares for others. Plus, remember that Luz Noceda used snakes and was going to use an explosive (fireworks taped to a toy car) for a class presentation? Or that Anne Boonchuy left her frog family to work the farm on a storm and used violence on her newfound frog family on certain occasions? Or how about Hilda who lied to her mother, said she grounded her "just to be mean" and called her "just a mom"? Or that twilight sparkle unintentionally brainwashed an entire town in an attempt to report a lesson to Celestia? Or that tulip's whole journey on the infinity train was "hey girl, everyone suffers from something. Your needs and wants aren't greater than others." My point is that all those girls had a problem or two and some even loose screws, but they were still loved and enjoyed. So what makes her special? That her love is obsessive? Please. tootie, panini and dijonay were way more obsessive and uncomfortable. That she gets away with minimal consequences? Luz, Twilight and Anne got away with things way worse. They are all who they are and if anyone has a problem with it, it's theirs. And before you say anything, no. I don't hate chloe and and Lila. I genuinely feel sorry for the former while I find the latter very interesting. Just like twilight and Anne, It will just take more time to change. Just look at what Garth Ennis (writer of the boys comic book) said when talking about hughie: "Hughie has a total inability to learn from his mistakes and change his ways [which] will eventually stand him in good stead... No doubt Hughie's tendency to mope and turn inwards is a source of frustration to many readers, all used to comic heroes who learn from experience and develop into fully-rounded characters ready to handle anything. In my experience this is like no one who's ever existed in real life; even the most capable people either maintain or eventually return to their essential flaws. I doubt any twenty-something lad unused to trauma and violence could simply absorb it straightaway, and if he did become hardened or inured it would be as a different, less sensitive person. In other words, Hughie's bizarre triumph is that he remains Hughie.". It's the same thing with Marinette (except it's for kids). between marinette and the rest of the girls I mentioned (especially Luz, Hilda and Tulip), Marinette will have a more complicated path as she goes from progress to regress on that journey of life it will take her long like Anne and twilight to become that more idolized/accepted version of herself. And if you want a girl protagonist who doesn't grow, just look at Reggie of twelve forever.
I watched Amhibia,The Owl house,My Little Pony
my opinion is that the hate is not deserved the cast all have flaws and some of the writing could be improved but it is hardly the character problem. if they mention Marinette in more depth than just the mention that Cloe is hated by almost everybody else. it would have really made more sense on why Marinette don't trust her or like Cloe
The thing is that while every characters are victims of bad writing people are less likely to defend Marinette when both the story and the writer makes her appear to be right everytime
She was hated by half the fandom before that, actually, mate. In the course of 9 years, she's been one of the most disliked characters on the show. I, myself, have been a long-time hater of Marinette. Since 2015 in fact. I always felt like she was weird and RUDE, especially to Chat Noir and never liked how much favoritism she got in-universe and within the the writer's room. Glad people are finally realizing how problematic he is.
Also, Chat Noir's behavior is not as bad at Marinette's to Adrien. Plus, he is called out for his bad behavior all the time and Thomas purposely writes Chat Noir as less skilled despite giving him fighting prowess and other skillsets.
Thing is Marinette get most screentime then other characters and that is flaw its own.Fans have no other option just hate character they see most.But Chloe redemption is ridiculous in Season 6.So he cut her legs and only then she get forgivness?Thomas is insane!Yes,that new girl in trailer is CHLOE!
WHAT THE HELL!!!
I think ASStruck is mocking us about Chloe.
@@mayotango1317 i saw tweet where he retweet for one person who asking who is girl in trailer and he said: i am glad you like Chloe new design.
@@cemrecerenylmaz7958 he is literally insane...if show wouldnt be such drama and one of few show what is intersting to watch nowadays,he would have nothing.I think I am lucky that in my age where very amazing kids show,now is all just content farm.Is sad.
As long as Asstruck is still in the business, there's no denying that Mari will ever get better.
I think the main double standard people criticise marinette for ( at least i do ) is the *reason* she gives Chloe. She says she can't give her the miraculous anymore because she has no secret identity. So who does she give a miraculous then? The only other Heroine who also outed herself immediately. And she faces no flack for this! She never gets called out on her hypocracy. Then Chloe of course unmasks all the heroes, and Ladybug keeps proving her point. All of the heroes who's identity get outed in Miracle Queen get to keep their miraculouses. Hell, Alix ( who has the arguably most powerful one ) even gets to tell the whole class! To the point where even Gabriel knows about it. If i was Chloe, i'd be pissed too! Especially since we learn in season 4 that you can change your secret identity and costume. Besides, what does it matter if chloe's identity is public? I mean Hawkmoth can't un-learn it. Nothing stops him from just keeping on to attack Chloe and her loved ones. Hell, one could argue that it'd be more responsible to let her keep the miraculous, so she could at least defend herself and her loved ones should they get Akumatized. Instead of just having to helplessly watch, hoping that ladybug might come
It is a bit hyocritical but the situation isn't all black and white like Chloè willingly revealed herself and put people in danger while all the others apart from Kagami didn't it do by choice
I keep saying, Chloe should've been an exception to the rule of secret identities. She was the first to reject an Akuma; when Mayura tried to tempt her as Queen Bee she was utterly un-impressed, and to top that, in Heroe's Day Scarlet Moth had to akumatize 3 people to finally affect her. Chloe/Queen Bee could've been a wild card, with some combo with the horse miraculous to send the bee miraculous to her plus the dog one to retreive it in case she went rogue.
@@riel4553 Bro I want chloe back as queen bee. Vesperia is literal garbage I'm not even joking, she is the worst miraculous users out there. Even King Monkey and Miss Hounnd are more better then her.
@@muichirotokito5624 I don't mind Vesperia but I do mind the show saying that the miraculous and the personality of the holder should match. (Adrian couldn't be the holder of the snake) If the bee miraculous worked for Chloe then it should not work for Zoe well enough to keep giving it to her.
@@riel4553 It isnt that Adrien was a poor match for the Snake, in my opinon, adrien is actually one of the best people you could pick for that miraculous. The only reason he had to do 25k rewinds was because He was aspik and couldn't be cat noir at the same time. I'm pretty sure that Ladybug's plan included Cat Noir. And him having the dedication to do 25k loops shows that he is perfect for the snake miraculous.
It's nice to see that your take is similar to my own in this situation. A lot of characters in this show were done dirty by the writing, but it feels like Marinette is sometimes treated by the fandom as an actual person rather than a fictional character who isn't being written well.
Marinette is bad for simply existing. She is teh embodiment of every bad female protagonist troupe .
Also the whole queen bee fiasco was her fault. What was stopping her from using both queen bee and ryoko ? Or just leave kagami alone! You told her she can’t be a hero anymore, honour that !. Don’t just get double standards cus you want your trophy boyfriend to yourself you ray Skywalker parody
I think part of the reason why the general fan base (aka the target audience) is because well, it’s been almost 10 years since it debuted; the target audience are growing up and realizing that Mari’s actions were not “cute”, “funny”, or “quirky”. They are starting to recognize them as the harmful, toxic actions that they are. They are also realizing how badly the favoritism of Marinette has ruined much of the show. Even other shows have entire episodes dedicated to other characters, and aren’t nearly as disingenuous with their marketing (such as making it seem Cat Nior/Adrien was an important and equal character to Marinette; the bar wasn’t very high). The audience is realizing that blind admiration for a show/product is not indicative of a “true” fan. People (like myself) criticize the show BECAUSE we care so much about it, and we KNOW it could be better.
Normally, I would have given Mari more grace is her unhealthy behavior, if the show was able to show her in the wrong. Her actions are either justified, encouraged, swept under the rug, or the “consequences” she face either don’t last longer than 5 seconds or don’t directly affect her. We need to acknowledge the whole context. Her age does not mean they are no longer harmful. If anything, her age is a reason to DOUBLE DOWN that it’s not okay. No one expects her to be perfect (especially at 15), but it’s not like NOT invalidating others’ boundaries, stealing from others, and taking away their agency is particularly hard to do, especially for the person they “love”.
It was not justfied does show us she "stalked" him yes does make what she did right no do eps like Ikari Gozen not no longer than 5 sec what Miracle queen, Strikeback, Volpina and bunch other of other eps not exist all of a sudden
@@Owell_Owl Strike out Ikari Gozen from that list because the consequences lasted only for that episode. The issue people have is that these episodes NEVER STUCK to the character UNTIL Strikeback.
The lesson of “don’t let love mess with your superhero work” was punished more than THREE times before and yet the character didn’t get the memo until she lost every jewel in the box! Hell, four times if we count the bout with the snake miraculous.
Making the character not make the same mistake over and over again is the crux of the issue and that doesn’t even include episodes like Animeastro where this behavior isn’t punished.
She needs to repeat mistakes for the target audidnce benefit
Her plan to get Kagami away from Adrien backfired like conseqences are negative results amd like she needs to repeat certain so the audience can relearn them
@@Owell_Owl That’s not true, and stop insulting the intelligence of children. You’re also insulting Marinette’s intelligence. Nothing is above criticism. Like I mentioned before, the consequences don’t stick, they have little (so little that is doesn’t even matter) to no lasting impact. The closest we get to her learning from her mistakes is in season 5, and like I mention before, the other characters (Luka, Alya, Kagami) try to justify her actions and say they are not a big deal and guilt her into chasing Adrien again, but that’s another conversation for another day. Saying something “last for 5 seconds” is just an expression; I don’t mean that whatever consequence Mari gets literally last 5 seconds. Either you aren’t fluent in English (which judging by how you structure your sentences, is a big possibility), or you’re purposely trying to twist what others and I say so it doesn’t make sense. If it’s the latter, the fact that you have to go to such lengths to justify the terrible and inconsistent writing says so much.
I'm not insulting anyones inteligence? Like even at anyone other you do require to repeat certain things for you to learn sometimes. I *NEVER* said that I'm not trying to bring toxic posivity because thats not better than saying the show absolutely sucks
Also for me my personal issues with Marinette is that shes never apologized or faced actually consequence for sowing the seeds of doubt in Kagami's and Adrien relationship, and even if she didn't skip over Chloe's with the express choice to hurt her she didn't talk to her either , even though she told tikki and Chat she would . Her actions are never addressed again , even though Chloe up to that point did everything she told her to do . The only other person to cause nearly as many akumatizations as chloe is Marinette and then felix is easily more dangerous than Chloe or even Lila and he gets to keep his miraculous (he's compromised to boot ) . It's all the writing but it's still annoying how she'll act justified in everything she does and then turn around and never followed her own rules unless it means screwing over Chloe .
What people tend to forget is that at the end of the day this is a cartoon and Marinette's action are played up and exaggerated for laughs.
That was fine until they retconned to be trauma in after four seasons
And they also inspire their fans to be stalkers, which got them into trouble in real life.
@@JskskMmmf I believe that was done in response to people keep hating on Marinette and the writers felt forced to give it a reason.
And Honestly I think its fine. It gives her a reason to over think everything which in turned helped her to become Ladybug.
She isn't a Stalker, Everyone Else is overacting to a cartoon meant for children.
I love Zoe/Vesperia, but I wonder if she was created just so that they can make sure Chloe never gets the bee miraculous again. 😅
@@happyblackwoman6154 honestly, Zoe is a real boring character. Her biggest character trait is that she is nice and that she is Chloes half sister. I don’t even care that she replaced queen bee atp, but even as a miraculous user she is real boring and isn’t even good at using her miraculous.
I'm sorry is domeone who has been through emotional abuse not interesting enough and she's kind of a female Adrien she does alright at using it
@@Owell_Owl She is literally a garbage miraculous user. The Ladybug and Cat miraculous are the two strongest of the box, then the next 5 are the turtle, fox, butterfly, peacock, and bee. Chloe literally had Mauyra running and was about to snatch her miraculous. Zoe can only use venom and jump, she doesn't even bother using her tool which is ridiculous. And she is not a female version of Adrien, don't even make that comparison. Zoe is a one dimensional character who has no backstory apart from being from New York where she was bullied, which we never got to see btw. Adrien has so many layers of depth to his character which is why he's one of the most popular and well liked characters from the show. Adrien's mother died a year before and we can see how that's affected him, to the point where he considered using the wish to being her back. His father's neglect, emotional abuse, and literally manipulating how he acts and what he does. Him being a sentibeing, having no freewill while Gabriel is in possesion of the rings. His father being the literal villian of the show. There is so much more I can say, but I think you get the jist of it by now.
@@muichirotokito5624and I would like to add that all her supposed story is just what the fans want to have for Chloe for example Chloe standing up against her mother and Chloe loving his father so Zoe's more of a thief than anything
Yeah I love her too, but yes, that's EXACTLY why she was created. She should have been introduced/created earlier on in the show and given more character development and her own story instead of being a replacement for Chloe.
What's you're saying is true! When a villanous, mean or antagonist character becomes good, people give them all the praise; but when the main protagonist does something bad, when they were supposedly portrayed as good, they get all the hate. It's almost like when people idolize a celebrity for years as their role model, until the celebrity was not as perfect as fans thought they were. Putting supposedly "good" people on the pedestal, much...🙄
I honestly think that for *Miraculous Ladybug*, it’s the way Thomas Astruc treats the characters that causes people like me to feel sympathy for Chloé and not Marinette. In the beginning, the show never sugarcoats her behavior; they make it clear she’s bad, and when she does something wrong, she often gets what she deserves. So when you see her genuinely develop and the show actually still addresses her issues and acknowledges them, it makes you root for her because it acknowledges both her problems and flaws, as well as the good in her.
Marinette started out similarly-she had flaws that the show acknowledged. She had problems and issues, but as the show goes on, they increasingly fail to address her issues. When Chloé is being hypocritical, the show addresses it as they should, but when Marinette does the same, the show seems to ignore it. When Chloé is being creepy or awful, the show always acknowledges it on some level, whether it’s through a cruel joke that makes you dislike her even more or an actual plot point. Yet, Marinette isn’t treated the same, especially in later seasons. Instead of truly acknowledging her flaws, they try to justify them.
For example, Marinette is portrayed as a stalker, but they excuse it by saying she had a traumatic past, which contradicts other story plots. Marinette can't give Chloé the Miraculous because it’ll endanger her, yet she gives Alya a permanent Miraculous even when Hawk Moth went after her. Marinette hates Lila because she lies, but her best friend Alya is a massive liar, and she befriends Zoé, who was a giant liar and literally bullied her. When Marinette treats Chat Noir badly, it’s addressed, but not in a satisfying way-they give Marinette excuses. And if you disagree with Thomas Astruc, he’ll just make another excuse.
The problem is that some people, including me, hate bad people , yes, but if everyone acknowledges their issues, it’s not nearly as annoying as someone who lies and pretends to be good and, when caught, refuses to acknowledge their mistakes. Or if they do, they try hard to sugarcoat it or make you sympathize with them instead of truly working to make them better.
That's what Thomas did to Marinette and what made me dislike her
@@panpanmonday3585 True, Marinette could be problematic at times, but I think people should bring down all of the characters down equally! And yes, THOMAS IS THE PROBLEM!!!
@@janellecharles7337and he hates people hatin on Mari so me being a petty b#tch hates on Mari to be you know petty
I kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette, and she was being rude to cat noir all those times because she was stressed most the time , you shouldn't blame the character blame the writer's
@@marquittadavis5878 Well said! 👏
holy moly :o I came back to your channel after a year (decided to drop MLB after that horrendous season 5 ending, but recently I got weak and picked it up again). Your videos have gotten so much better! And that's not to say they were bad before, but they have such a nice flow now that wasn't as strong before. Good job!
I think people like it went bad characters do good things more than when good characters do bad things in this scenario because when marinette does bad things (stalking, being a major creep, etc.) the show tries to make it seem as if it's just her being quirky, ultimately glorifying her actions. Imo that's pretty bad. Whereas when we see chloe start to become a better character, it's in the name of character growth. She's starting to actually better herself and become a good person. When a character is imagined as terrible or the absolute worse in character-driven shows, there's only one way people's perception of the character can go as the story continues (upwards). The opposite is true for characters that are imagined as the best/good. Of course people are going to flock towards character growth vs character assassination. When you have good characters do bad things, 1. wtf, and 2. it makes the audience's perception of the characters become worse. Case-in-point, people want to see people do good things anyway. Characters can have flaws, but stalking people isn't a flaw, it's a crime. If Chloe has to face the consequences of her actions (bullying) why does Marinette get a pass for stalking and sniffing people's pillows (story-wise)? Is it bad writing? Yes, and Marinette and Chloe are the two biggest examples of the writer's bad writing, thus they get the most attention. Due to being on opposite ends of good/bad character, they get vastly different reactions.
Marinette does stop after being called out it by Alya too
@@Owell_OwlShup up.
I think a lot of people are unfair to her regarding her lying about Gabriel in the S5 finale. Does Adrien deserve to know the truth? Yes absolutely. Does it make sense that Marinette wouldn't want to tell him? Also yes. If I was in her shoes I don't think I'd want to tell him "you know your dad, who just died, making you an orphan? He was also the guy who was terrorizing the city for a year." Also there are other people who could, and should have told Adrien the truth before Gabriel died, Nathalie and Felix.
I agree with some of your points, but I think the reason why other characters like Chloe and Adrian gets a pass and Marinette doesn't because like Marinette, they are also teenagers; they are prone to make many mistakes and many bad decisions before they eventually learn from them, but unlike Marinette, they don't have caring role models in their lives that tell them right from wrong. Chloe's parents are arrogant, neglectful douchebags that don't give her the time of day and instead give her stuff to shut her up, and Gabriel shut his own son (who is still grieving the loss of his mother) out and force him to do things he doesn't want to.
I just can't get over how they did chat noir so dirty. In season 1 and 2 he was a great super hero who was an equal member of the pair, but then the writers decided to just make him a side character with barely any screen time even though the name of the show is called ladybug AND chat noir. Plus he's a much more interesting character with a more interesting story. I will also never forgive the writers for what they did to him in the finale.
This makes the day so much better when you upload
I used to be one who hated Marinette, but after watching the infamous episode where they try and excuse her stalking behavior, I realized I hated the writing and not her. It's not HER fault the writers make the decisions they do about her, it's not HER fault the show excuses her toxic behaviors, it's the WRITING'S fault.
They aren't justifying it does show us why she was like that yes does it make what she did right no
@@Owell_Owl No it absolutely was justifying, you cannot say that wasn't the intention because the writers and Astruc excuse it all the time and play it off for laughs and as cutesy. The episode only exists to make fans shut up about her doing this.
Using for comedic effect isn't the best route no doubt by it's to use to show Children what not to do and even after breaking out the akuma she says I know *why* I'm so afraid it's not a Justification it is not the action of declaring or making something righteous
@@Owell_Owl Again, I'm saying the writers (mainly Astruc) are trying to justify her behavior, not that the episode is. Literally the only reason the episode exists is because Astruc and everybody wanted the world to shut up about Marinette being a stalker, and the in-episode explanation they give is shoved down your throat by having Marinette say the full explanation that being "Next time I'm interested in someone I'm going to make sure I know everything about them!" Also, the explanation makes no sense, because then why didn't she stalk Luka? The episode was not made for story reasons, if anything it is a filler episode, and you can tell, especially with how late it came into the show. Again, I don't think the episode itself is the problem, it's the way the writers treat it and try to justify it/get fans to shut up.
ALSO the show never has Marinette realize this behavior is bad! They give the reason it exists, a half-baked excuse that you can tell was only made to make fans stop being angry, but NEVER has it said that it's bad. And in the season 6 trailer, it's implied Marinette STILL stalks Adrien. It's 100% the writers trying to justify her actions with an episode that did nothing and was just an episode to make an excuse.
Thank you for this video Smarty Pants. While I think criticism is okay, the straight up hate I see for a fictional 14 year old girl is insane. Considering the fact that some of these people are adults too 💀 Marinette is a good person who makes bad decisions at times which is make sense because she is a kid still growing. Just like Adrien, just like Chloe. I talk to plenty of people who are outside of the fandom/slightly in it and they also tend to have Marinette as one of their favs but do point out her flaws (mostly that she was creepy) but don’t straight up hate her.
I've heard fangirls who got in trouble for imitating Marinette's creepy behavior.
Honestly, I don’t really think hating her is really warranted and justified. The only people that I ever truly hated were the writers of the show, especially the main lead Thomas As(s)truc himself.
And because asstruc hates it when we hate on his fictional daughter we will hate her for retaliation like he can handle having a hate comment about himself but never NEVER hate commenting about Marinette, and that's also the reason I'll like Chloe is just to be petty cause if his petty well fan are more petty because of the poor writing and ruining the show
Srry just ranting have a nice day
Fun Fact: Thomas Austruc had a Chinese ex girlfriend named Sabine. Marinette's mother is Chinese and her name is Sabine. 😬
He basically made an imaginary family for himself. No wonder he favors marinet so much.
If you want to know why Marinette has a higher standard? Go and watch the miraculous episode where Santa comes and declares that ladybug is the nicest child IN THE WORLD. She's at a higher standard because the show pushes her that way. Adrian got passes unjustifiably, he's a loser so we felt bad for him. Chloe got the inverse of Marinete, she lost consistently and repeatedly. So the Karma of her actions evened out. Marinettes Karma doesn't even out though.
Santa declares ladybug is the nicest child in the world because Marinette said to nino's younger brother (prob so he could stop being annoying), it's really not that serious
@@Shadow-jm9ei nah that was the literal Santa no? Ninos little bro could just make his toys real isn't it?
Marinette has gotten increasingly annoying and frustrating as time has gone by, but really it's the writers I'm pissed off at, not her.
4:37 Honestly, as a Chloe fan who used to be like that, that's a good point
And yet Marinette gives her Miraculus to Felix and Sabrina and Kim for no reason.
@@mayotango1317 ok, for the felix thing she thought he was Adrien. As for Kim, that was Fu (though she kept giving it back so you get a half point there) as for Sabrina...OK you have a point there
@@madysonslays9662 Watch Derision again, Kim not deserves his Miraculous. And Felix still has his Miraculous despite revealing his identity to the public before eliminating humanity and being a creepy with Kagami.
@mayotango1317 which is why I gave you a point for Kim, Marinette didn't give him the jewel in the first place, it was Fu, but she kept giving it to him despite what he did in derision.
As for Felix, you get a point because of the season 5 finale
@@mayotango1317 100% agreed
My issues for Marinette herself started in season 4. To me, it just seemed like she was making decisions that caused problems that didn't need to be problems. And honestly, I wasn't seeing the logic behind them. I mean, can someone explain why Mari decided to make Alya a permanent holder and keep it a secret from CN? What was the point of that?
YES!!
I think the difference in how Marinette is treated (hated by fandom) vs the other characters (given grace) is mainly due to how these character flaws are treated in the narrative. As you said, Chat Noir is written as kind of a pathetic hero pretty often, and his advances on LB do escalate to bring a bit incel-like. But that is somewhat addressed, even if incompletely. And he gets a far less favorable outcome for his own story- literally taken out of the final battle because he’s apparently too pathetic. Meanwhile, Marinette gets the better outcomes for the narrative: she makes mistakes all the time, yet she’s somehow smarter than everyone, including multiple grown adults, one of which is a Master who has trained for his job since childhood (Su Han), can wear all the Miraculous with just a bit of fatigue (meanwhile Gabriel full on passes out trying the same), is smarter than her whole class (the Lila fiasco, is somehow the best Guardian ever at just 14, and defeats the big bad all on her own! (Well that one is not technically right, but the narrative does treat it as her victory). So while others’ flaws can be brushed under the rug by fandom, I think it’s easier to do so than with Marinette because she gets the golden treatment by the narrative in the end
I think the difference is potential/ what they should be and how clear it is. It's clear that Chloe should be an anti hero. It's clear that Chat Noir should be suave, cool, and have an arc about his family life, but the writers don't do it. What should Marinette be instead? What is the clear path the writers aren't taking?
despite marinettes bad habits i love her and her character !! People say “chloe this chloe that” true she needs a loving mother and cat noir aka adrien needs more screen time. but ive seen some people say they wished that astruc should d13.. like its not that deep chill😭 but overall, i love marinette regardless :)
I have ZERO hope for season six I speak for all of us when I say marrinette got to much scream time in season 5(idc if I spelled her name wrong) when other characters like Marc Max Sabrina And the other team members where right there and because of the random and stupid lgbtq reveals I don’t wanna know how season six is gonna handle love stories Thomas Astruc never learns from his mistakes and from what I heard he’s a creep and doesn’t deserve to be near a studio ever again be glad he isn’t working on the movies (for this of you who don’t think Astruc is a creep he worked on total spies nuf said
And for those of you who are questioning if marrinette deserves the hate we’ll let me put it down right here for you folks YES,!YES SHE DOES!!!!!!!!
@@Ryan-q2f kinda like marinette that she help alot people , l know she stalk adrien but she stalk him because her story she got bullied real bad to the point it affected her in the future you shouldn't hate marinette
I agree with mostly everything you said. Regarding Adrien/Cat Noir's insistence toward Ladybug, I believe this could be more understandable since he had almost zero social interactions untill he's 14. The only bases for social interactions he has are Chloe and whatever he watched on TV or read. Plus, I believe some of the times he flirts with her are not even serious; he does it in a jocking maner. I mean if Ladybug truly had a serios problem with her partner's atitude, she had numerous oportunities to replace him. Also, I agree with you that Marinette is badly written like Adrien and Chloe, but since she is made to always be right or be the best hero there is or stuff like that, I belive people have troble seeing her as a victim of bad writting like Adrien or Chloe. Plus after all the stuff Chloe has done, I'm not surpised she ended up alone and despised by everyone. What the show and probably the fandom doesn't discuss much is how Adrien managed to become so kind and nice to be around without any social interactions except for Chloe and the emotional abuse and lonelinness he started suffering after Emilie "dissapeared". Plus remember all the rich kids at the Diamond's Dance? Thery were just like Chloe! I mean massive kudos for Adrien!
эти дети были нормальными!
4:34 fair point but marinette is portrayed as a good person and even when she’s creepy she doesn’t get punished, Adrien and Chloe get punished for their bad behaviour
7:55 ladybug was less cruel for taking queen bee away from Chloe, it was a fair call for ladybug to make, Chloe clearly didn’t understand at the end of miraculer and ladybug was just like “ok Chloe” and left, then marinette was hypocritical and gave the miraculous back to kagami… a hypothetical decision… when that’s literally the reason Chloe Wasn’t allowed to have hers back
She does get conseqences like her "stalking" gets her absolutely nowhere with him
Not to mention that Kagami had a disastrous debut as a hero and yet he is entrusted with a Miraculous.
@@Owell_Owl getting nowhere isn’t exactly a consequence… I mean that just shows the tactic isn’t working but she keeps going anyway
I always thought people hate how they write her instead of the character itself
I honestly don't hate Marinette her character is fine if done right. I just hate how the story developed in general to a point where there is no going back to fix it for me, they only way the story can be salvageable is if we start from scratch
I think one of the main reason people sympathize with Chloe and Adrien more than Marinette is because their actions are more understandable, not justifiable, but understandable.
Chloe has two neglectful parents. Her mom left when it appears she was about four. Her dad has one of the most important jobs, meaning he probably doesn't have much time to be with his daughter, so he just spoils her to not have to worry about her and her butler probably took more care of her than her parents. And every time we see her mother, she's shown to be awful, so it's definitely where she got her behavior from.
Adrien has been shown to have a bad home life, even before his mom died, especially in the episode wishmaker. So he's probably never been to a consent class, so, shame on his parents for not teaching him that.
Marinette has an amazing home life and knows better than to stalk. Even if she has PTSD from that god-awful episode Derision, she should've should've talked to her parents and gotten therapy. If, for some reason, she couldn't talk to her parents about what happened, then every parent in this show is terrible. She knows better than to stalk her crush. She knows better than to make a terrorist and child abuser look bad. And yes, I'm also mad at Kagami, Felix, Su-han, and Nathalie for not telling him the truth
While I think the special London may give us another understandable look at Marinette's reasons for hiding the truth from Adrien, I agree with everything else that you said. You can dislike Marinette, but hating her is stupid when other characters can just be as badly written as her, and I don't think that Marinette bein the main character is a reason to hold her up to higher standarts than characters like Adrien or Chloé. Like you said it's total hypocrisy to hate on a character who's a good person but who have cringy moments and makes bad decisions sometimes, and to pamper on a rotten character who only had a few good moments and is bad the rest of the time
The only difference is that Chloe and Adrien suffer for their actions and receive a lot of punishment, while Marinette has the easy life and always gets away with it.
Also it's because she has no excuse for being like that. Adrien and Chloe have very screwed up lives and their parents only hurt them emotionally. Whereas Marinette is perfect with loving parents and lots of friends.
@@mayotango1317 again so you're excusing their actions while hating on mari
THANK YOU 🎉🙏 FINALLY someone is spreading some insight about how hypocritical most Chloe stans are- that bothers me. how are you gonna say "Oh Chloe just got murdered by the bad writers, not her fault, and Marinette is just toxic and rude" when Marinette is literally has the same writers 🤔?? I'm not saying Marinette's perfect and everyone has to absolutely adore he but like geez guys chill a bit would yah
The problem I see is how the creative's team react to the fandom`s criticism. They don't like Pupeteer 2? Well Adrien felt in love in that cringe moment.
Bullying is bad, all kind of bullying... and there we have Marinette bullying Kagami and getting her friendship first and then a seat next to Adrien after trying to public humiliate her.
People still likes Chloe bc her mom is abusive, first they gave us Derision, after her father got a redemption after all he has done and a new Chloe and he punishes her sending her to live with her abusive mother. But she's not an abused or neglected child.
The thing is, Adrian and Chloe have crazy messed up home lives, while Marinette has both parents, a nice house, and both her parents love her.
Adrian's mom is not in his life and his dad neglects him.
Chloe's mom is unspeakably horrible to her and her dad is hardly even a man.
They both have trauma that explains why they act out, while Marinette has no reason to act the way she does. Sure being a guardian is stressful, but she makes it more stressful than necessary by lying to her parents.
I haven't seen season 5, so I know almost nothing abt it.
I'd never bully someone about their opinion of a character.
If Marinette told her parents that not only is she Ladybug but also the guardian of the miraculous would just put them in danger
I don't know what's so "stressful" about being a Guardian. The problem is that Marinette just doesn't lock the Kwamis in the box.
@@cjgamer6356 How?
@@LilyCWfan22 What do you mean how if Gabriel found out that Marinette's parents knew who Ladybug is he would either akumatized them to tell them who Ladybug is or set a trap 🪤 for Ladybug where she had no job but give her miraculous away to keep her family safe
@@cjgamer6356 True, but she told Alya, and several other ppl know, plus then her parents could help cover for her, like if she goes missing during school, her parents could make up an excuse for her.
besides, HawkMoth probably wouldn't find out that her parents know.
Anyway, it's a stupid show with more plot holes than swiss cheese, and I hate it. o_o
Black mask from Arkham origins: you think that will make me talk after they put me through the sidelines, the MC focus, and the MC fighting the villain herself and keeping secrets. IT'S THOMAS AND THE WRITERS FAULTS! NOT HERS!
I have no reason to care if Marinette has a bad day since she has a perfect life, everything goes well for her.
Yes! She has treated Cat Noir like crap! She was horrible to Kagami and still was even in later seasons! And let’s not forget the worst thing she ever did! Forgiving and trusting a terrorist! You have to be a special kind of stupid to forgive something like that! And the London trailer. I’m saying it now. I do not feel bad for Marinette or Natalie! I hope Plagg tells Adrien the truth. Because Marinette would screw it up somehow if she did it!
Plagg can’t tell Adrien the truth because Gabe was a holder. Felix helped the terrorists Gabe and so did Nathalie. Kagami knew about it as well. Cat Noir deserves the poor treatment at times because he doesn’t know what consent is. Mari and Kagami had a rough start, but they were able to solve their issues.
Anything else you would like me to address?
@@josratubanguraIf you’re going to slander Cat Noir. Without making it only criticism. And outright hate on him. As well at hating on Kagami. I’m not going to listen to you.
@@user-jv8cj1rm3wbruh what?
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian yo listen for a minute ok? Alright here’s a Reminder, Felix and Kagam knew this information way before Marinette. They didn’t tell anyone. Felix and Kagami trash only showed that garbage play which can be interpreted in so many ways. Hypocrite Felix tells Kagami gabes identity and that she and Adrien are sentis. Yet he can’t do it for his own cousin who he is supposedly doing everything for. Marinette shouldn’t be the one to tell him anything. Those garbage characters I mentioned should. First Felix should ACTUALLY tell Adrien he is a senti, not by doing some dumb play, then a couple months, Mari can tell him Gabriel’s identity, I still believe Natalie should because she was literally assisting a mass terrorist.
I hate Mari for the writers marking her weird and a Mary sue-I hate that later seasons they never addressed the and things she did.
About Chat in season one it was just flirting and playfulness and it doesn’t help that Gabriel doesn’t teach that boy a damn thing whatsoever.
He did used to be cool in season one the writers made him worse because they hate him so I hate the writers and story NOT characters.
I hate her because of the writers. Because she is the main character. They treat her like the only main character season 5 pissed me of when she took down Gabriel. His father ladybug should have been pushed back. Not him it is his character development and cat noir has no self respect. He is ass to but i blame Marinettes character for that.
I think it depends on which social media you use.I remember getting blocked on Twitter for daring liking Chloe
Well, many liker Chloe now.
Queen Banana is were I truely started to hate Marinette... That line about Controling your temper didn't win her any love from me and having Zoe lie really didn't help... hate by proxy and all that... i hate lier's
So you hate yourself and everyone else in this show and in real life
Here is a cool random fact for you guys: the actor of Adrian is the same actor as inoske from demon slayer, and Kirito from sword art online!
Personally, I blame Astruc for every bad writing decision and then trying to retcon it...but finding out in Derision that Marinette swore that she'd NEVER date anyone that was friends with Chole and her relationship with Adrien doesn't fully take off till: after she's essentially sabotaged his friendship with Chloe...yeah, that doesn't look great for her!
Marinette is a planner; we've seen it time and time again! Who's to say she didn't see an opportunity to ruin the changes Chloe was beginning to show and take full advantage of the situation? I selfishly didn't let you save your parents, and you're rightfully upset with me? How about this: I can no longer give you the Miraculous at all...because you outed your identity! You fell prey to Hawkmoth because of all that? 😳 Well, I guess I REALLY can't ever trust you now! Wait you have a 'Nice Half-Sister'...how would you react if I decided to give her Your Former Miraculous? Oh, you got angry...Again...AND you finally pissed off Adrien enough so much that he no longer considers you a friend...meaning I can FINALLY Date him now? 😱
...All according to plan! 😈
Now, on one hand, that was all writer's choice, and it's never Explicitly called out that Marinette did intent to end Adrien's 1st and longest running friendship...but I feel like it was Heavily Implied! The Astruc put pen to paper, yet Mari's likeability was the thing that suffered the most! 💔
I completely agree with you and thank you for letting me see the show through a new lens
dersoin could be a retcon but marinette did act the way she did around on luka when she first met him she stammered around luka when she first met him and knows luka has no connection to chole that's why she isn't creppy with him
Fair points and opinions, i hope the Writing gets better, good enough for all of this to be taken to rest.
Does she deserve the hate?
My answer: "Yes"...?
Because the writer's right
I agree with you, you make a lot of good points. I would say the same thing.
Marinette doesn't deserve the hate, Thomas Astruc deserves the harsh criticism he so viciously ignores and refutes. That's why he made an entire pity party episode dedicated to himself to demonize his fans. He literally has a self insert.
Personally, I wish Chloe and Marinette could team up to expose Lila together. That would be seriously more satisfying.
AH YES that Chloe part was completely reasonable
I'm surprised she let her have it again tbh
marinette was creppy in the shanghi special but she got consenquenses she got her stuff stolen and din't get to see adrien until the end of the episode
Shanghai special
однако эти вещи воровка ей вернула и стала подругой-союзницей. Отправилась в Шанхай за медью, а приобрела золото😅
@@ИванКорнилов-у7ю so what the fact that it still happened makes it a consequence
Have not watched the show in a long time, def found myself caught in a few of those points. I can’t particularly separate Marinette as a character in universe versus the writing decisions made through her, I just dislike them both together, but I’ll admit I liked a lot of point you made and has me rethinking the exact reasons I should dislike her. Maybe I’ll rewatch the series, I still think this show is interesting. Thanks for the video man
2:37 yeah their show what not to too
Yup double standards in fandom
Adrien Harasses someone: Thats cool
Marinette : Poision her, Drown her, Bash her in head
MLB fans are hypocrite.
5:54
Because " he always loses, hes cring" you feel bad for the character, he needs justice
" Mary sue, always win" like Its way more annoying and you don't really feel bad for her cuz she has everything ya know
Like yeah they could both be improved by writing changes um just saying I think that's why there's a different attitude
Hey Smarty, I agree to an extent. Whilst there is a double standard within the fandon of how they critique Marinette compared to everyone else, I think you need to acknowledge & understand the double standard held by the writers & the reasoning for the fandom's aggresion.
The show typically shows Marinette as one whom can do no wrong & if she does she immediately rectifies it with no proper consequence, Like you yourself mention this in your thoughts on her in the london special vid. And especially with the creators especially thomas Marinette is shown to be this perfect badass queen, Ontop of her getting the most screentime. Whereas other characters whom get less screentime are presented as those with flaws, Chat's pushiness, Chloé's bullying, Alya & Nino whom are unable to keep secrets. And the show & creators address these character & others as wrong in their situations, Whereas the show typically doesn’t hold Marinette accountable, Leaving it to the fans to hold her accountable for her misdeeds.
Chat's been called out for his pushiness & creepiness in Glaciator 2.0 & Kuro Neko, Chloe's been called out for her bullying in All of S4 & S5, Alya & Nino were both held accountable & called out for their unability to keep secrets in The S4 Finale. Whilst i agree with you that Marinette is NOT Responsible for Chloe's actions in the finale or post that but with the show & its characters & creators not calling out marinette or holding her accountable, the only ones to do so are the fans. Plus she has more screentime so that's why fans pick & prod at her the most
If you hate how she is written then you hate her, there is no in-between.
You dont know how iconic you are for this video. You literally ate and this had to be said
I think what happens is that, because Marinette is the main character, she ends up becoming the lightning rod character for the whole show. Everything revolves around her. And because of that, any and all flaws almost appear to the audience like they where designed only to make her look better. So even bad decisions that make Marinete look worst, give the impression that it's meant to make her look good/better then everyone else, and people resent that.
But yeah, Marinette is just as much a victim of bad writing as everyone else.
11:24 I have a genuine belief that it's because that's how people are in real life. To be terrible means we already know you're terrible, so when you do something good, it's a pleasant surprise. Likewise it's a pleasant association, we're more likely to want them to succeed and want to give them the space to better themself.
But when you know a good person, who has never done wrong, and they suddenly do something bad, it's an irreversible betrayal of the trust you had in them. Irl you are far more likely to be outwardly negative to someone who betrayed you, and more wary of being overly negative about someone who has done something good when they are normally terrible, for fear of reversing their progress.
It's not nearly that dramatic when applied to media, however I have a feeling that our real life biases of how we'd react in this situation affects how we view characters. It is quite unfair honestly. I feel it myself as being someone who always wants to do the best for the people around me. But when I snap or muck up, I tend to feel the heat more than I see in people who don't get reprimanded since they are often like that. It's like in jobs when you do a lot of work, you get more fire if you don't complete your work, as opposed to someone who may never do work, who may get more praise when they do something well.
Just my theory at least :)
People really got a "don't hate the character, hate the writer" attitude. Why? Can we keep the hate in the fictional world please? We don't need anymore irl hate.
Truely it is frustrating to fall in love with a series then have that all stripped away from you in the worst way possible
ChatNoir: from flirtatious superhero to “yeah I choose the bear”
Chloe: from misunderstood antihero to an actual demon child (i swear they took the arch she was supposed to have and divided it between felix and zoe)
And marinette: from a loveable teen with a relatable inability to talk to her crush to a pick-me stalker mary-sue 💔
You cannot be both a stalker and a Mary sue
@@Owell_Owl isn’t a Mary sue a character painted by the narrative to always be right
Do eps like Ikari Gozen and Animastro not exist
@@watermelon3266 her being a Mary sue and a stalker contradict each other… anyways her stalking does not even exist anymore so I don’t even know why ppl bring it up.