Not just that, he was in an old weak body by the time he had to fight jack. BRahm worked for jacob and told myles that if locke wasnt back on the island when the war happend the wrong side wold win
I love the change in tone at 2:10 when the music evolves as Jack processes what he's just been told and compares it with what he knows about Locke. He knows Locke was ultimately right about the Island: he's felt it inside since he left. He remembers his last conversation with Locke. He remembers Locke's letter to him. And he remembers Locke's insistence that their destiny was on the Island. His reflection on these things is why the Man in Black, almost confused, asks "What?". And then loses his cool when Jack tells him his thoughts.
MIB lost whatever tiny chance he might have had to manipulate Jack and possibly earn his trust when he called Locke a sucker. That was it for Jack right there. For MIB to lose his composure just that one time in the conversation, to deliver that type of vitriol toward John, ironically the same type Jack himself had thrown at Locke so many times, Jack confirmed what he needed to confirm and that MIB was the enemy. Locke's memory works through Jack this entire season and this is just one example of that. Locke's memory makes Jack realize for certain this is the big bad, not a misunderstood ally.
Sad reality about John Locke, it's that he was always a pawn, his entire life. He thought he was special, only to be used by another person to achieve their interest. 1. His father used him to get his kidney. 2. Used by Ben many times. 3. That FBI guy gained his trust, only to get to those people growing weed and other drugs. And he considered Locke, only because he was an easy to gain trust. 4. MiB, when he slowly poisoned his mind, by believing he was special and that he understands island more than anyone else. 5.Which is most important, he was never meant to be a replacement for Jacob as an Candidate, he was used by Jacob, brought back to life when he fell from building, gotten through all the pain in life, only to be the one to make Jack believer, so last one can take Jacobs place. Everything hes gotten through, everything he did for the island, was only to make Jack believe into everything and to agree to take position.
Perhaps to have a life of purpose and meaning maybe we are only there to change the course of ONE person's life (a friend, a spouse, a coworker, a child, a stranger). Doesn't make that person's life meaningless...rather all the pains and trials the person endured have singular purpose, focus and value. Maybe recovering alcoholic's one job in life was to get sober so that he could be the Uber driver that gets that one pregnant lady safely to the hospital and the baby SHE delivers is the one who cures cancer or develops a warp core engine allowing mankind to travel across the stars. His life has purpose and all his tribulations led to something, even though he was for practical purpose a means to a greater end. Evolutionarily speaking, our ancestors who fought off bears and lions and wolves, saving their children whose children's, children's, children's, children's....children led to US. Their sacrifices in retrospect become means to an end (US). In time, our sacrifices, our perseverance will be a means to some future generation of humanity.
Of all the people MiB killed, John Locke's murder is the saddest. He didnt turn into the smoke monster or blow up a bomb in a submarine to kill him. He slowly poisoned his mind as Christian and by instructing Richard to tell him to kill himself. Ben may have strangled Locke, but MiB pulled the strings
@@TomCL-vb6xc Ben got his revenge against Widmore's people. Ben wanted to kill Penny as revenge for Keamy killing Alex (presumably on Widmore's orders). Now he wanted to return to the Island. Locke was HIS ONLY way back. By killing Locke, Ben was able to take on the role of pulling all the others together and get them back on the Island. Ben killed Locke so he could get back to the Island...where he felt he belonged. Once Locke revealed that Eloise Hawking was the key to the puzzle on how to get back to the Island, Ben strangled Locke. It was pure Ben all the way...feeling jealous of how special Locke was and that Locke would be "replacing" Ben as the leader of the Others.
Just because Locke died doesn't mean he wasn't important. I thought season 6 made it clear how important he was. He was important to MIB for obvious reasons and he was important for Jacob because he was the one who inspired jack. Locke probably was THE candidate, but MIB got him first. Luckily for Jacob there was a failsafe, Locke's influence on Jack.
Hit the nail on the head. If you’re competing with someone let them take away your strength and think they’ve won and then you win by betting on using your perceived weakness as a strength.
newwavesoldier8 I completely agree with you. Other than that, he was important for Charles Widmore because he said he wanted to get rid of Ben so John could be someone he was always meant to be since a very long time: a leader. Ben was deeply jelous of John because he knew he was special. The Monster i think always kept an eye on John because of that and because he was one of the candidates. And yes, John would have been THE candidate if the Monster didn't intervene. Let's think about how Jacob chose his candidates. He chose solitary and lost "souls" when they lived their normal lives. John was clearly one of them but he was findind a purpose on the island and he was the strongest candidate, speaking of connection with the island. He was special for a lot of people and for different reasons. The Monster took his life but John finally made Jack a believer so he would replace Jacob for a short while and then he would made Hugo the next "keeper". Without John Locke no one would have replaced Jacob.
@@SigalDa Read carefully, noone said MiB killed Locke but "got to him" meaning manipulated him and drove him away from the island which led to his demise eventually
1:29 Flocke is lying. Jack almost died when he was chasing his father and got saved by Locke. The real intent was to get rid of Jack as a candidate but Locke got in the way. That's why he had to get rid of Locke because he kept messing up with his plans.
Yes, everything he says to Jack in that conversation (as everything he says to anyone else) is a lie. Most notably, the part of taking Christian’s appearance at that point.
@@thebigragu9952Nah, Jack tripped and rolled down the hill a good ways before reaching the cliff. Point is, that was an apparition of Christian, not the MiB taking his appearance (he lied to Jack like he lied to everyone else).
At 2:08 you can see Jack realising something's off, then immediately John Locke's theme starts and Jack knows the real John Locke was and is right, and then it gets cut off by MiB repeatedly trying to nullify John Locke by lying.
See right there...you realize just what a force of change Locke was for Jack. John Locke defeated MiB as much as any of them, even after his death because he convinced Jack of the importance of the Island and them staying on the Island. He realized...once and for all, as MiB got super defensive, that it's wrong to leave the Island! The ONLY reason Jack got on the sub is because Kate got shot. Otherwise, he wouldn't have joined them.
Lmfao not that sad. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but for me, it's not sad because I knew he was wrong. I guess I was a little sad. We see numerous times where MiB was proven wrong in the series.
@@masterofdragons82 He's not wrong. John Locke did turn out to be a sucker. He was wrong about the Island being "special" and "speaking to him". All of it was just MiB manipulating him the whole time, and he died alone in a hotel room, pathetically. It was really bad writing that did a disservice to a great character.
@@terracottapie Well no, it was great writing. John's story was a tragedy from the very beginning. He found his purpose and WAS special. Not every single interaction John had with the island was a manipulation by the Man in Black. The Island is special and he did have some form of communion with it. And he was a candidate, one of the final few predestined by the numbers. However he was too trusting and easily led and that was established many times throughout the show. So he was able to be manipulated by the MiB and that led to his death.
@@jxsh03 In John's own words: he was the sacrifice that the Island demanded. John needed to die for Jack to find his faith. He was a tragic hero, a piece in the masterplan he didn't know existed.
I saw Locke as MiB's biggest threat, even more than Jacob (who doesn't intervene), so he went out of his way to pull some strings and get rid of Locke before he figures out the meaning behind all this.
Exactly. If Locke had actually found out he had the chance to become a tropical demigod and fight the Smoke Monster, he would not have hesitated to take it.
That's how important Locke was. But, I don't think he was manipulated. I mean think about it. He NEEDED to die for them to come back. Jacob knew that and Locke did too.
@@masterofdragons82 No he was manipulated, it was exactly the MIB who told richard to tell Locke that he has to die so they comeback to the island, the MIB influenced Locke to die
That scene I found very moving and brought me to tears. Finally, Ben coming to terms with how bad a person he was during his life up to when Hugo took over the running of the island. Ben was regretting killing many people and was now having to confront all his issues before he could move on to a higher level with the others in the church.
@@showmoke .. I don't see Ben as "bad" at all. Ben the character was purposely & perfectly presented to the audience as a villain but lets take a look at Ben in totality. Was he "kidnapping" children? No, we find out from Carl that they were trying to give orphaned kids, or kids brought to the island from parents not on Jacob's lists (thus not people worth redemption). We also learn he stole Alex to avoid killing Rousseau. Ben was person that grew up in a world in which not a single adult or person ever loved him...NOT ONE, immensely sad when you think about it, it made sense that he fell in love with the island. Asking John to kill his own father. This wasn't to embarrass John, it was in Ben's mind what someone had to do in order to become the new "leader" on the island, as he had to do to his own father years before. Moving on to the killing of Alex, as Ben stated, and Keamy didn't deny, if Ben went with him Keamy he was instructed to kill every man, woman, and child on the island. So Ben sacrificed his Alex for everyone else. Sure Ben felt guilty forever for this (as he should) but as an audience Ben's deed ensured our characters fulfilled their destiny. Ben was given a list from Jacob way back when the plane crashed, he would never had hurt anyone on that list. Sure Ben did manipulative things but most of them were to retain power or because he himself was being manipulated. In the end Ben brought everyone back. Even Hurley saw the good in Ben in the end. 1 final thought I have always had during this scene. Lot has been made about Ben not going inside, but you also notice something strange. Ben never moves his legs in the scene. I believe Locke brought the wheelchair for Ben who is now crippled by his own inability to forgive himself. Just as the transference from John to Ben played out in Season 3. Ben
@@tony.g20 - I agree, in the end Ben had remorse for all the bad things that he had done (both on and off the island). For a start he murdered quite a few people including his own father! He even admitted that he had done wrong when he sacrificed Alex so that he could keep his power which he said when he pointed a gun at Alania (was that her name?) - the ‘I want to explain’ speech. That scene I found incredibly moving and it was the first real sign of remorse that we saw coming from Ben. He said that he wanted to go to ‘Locke’, because he was the only one that would have him. At which point, Alania said ‘I’ll have you’, which amazed Ben and Ben then walked back with Alania to the others. I was in tears at that point. So, yes, redemption was very much the thing for Ben near the end. Not sure your right though regarding Ben being disabled outside the Church - I don’t go with that personally.
@@showmoke love the Alana scene, and yes I have no idea if I am right on the transference, but it makes more sense than Ben still had things to work out. As Christian explains there is no time "here" so it therefore didn't matter how long it took Ben to forgive himself.
@@tony.g20 - thinking about it, there was an extra episode shown after the series was finished which featured Ben meeting some Dharma employees in a warehouse and paying them off and closing the whole Dharma organisation down. At that stage, he wasn’t ‘disabled’ at all, but of course that would have been before he would have died. I don’t know if that episode was released on terrestrial TV, or just on UA-cam only.
I've always like when MIB tells Jack he trying to help him in "White Rabbit". If you remember, Jack almost falls off a cliff chasing his father. If John Locke isn't there to save him, bye bye candidate #23. There's even a music cue during this scene to maybe hint that's lying: 1:29 . He even looks to the right before he tells Jack this, Locke being right handed, this signals that he is totally trying to manipulate Jack. Just something to share.
That's right the Monster tried to kill Jack because Locke could be the leader and then "hey i'm the island Locke listen to me, go to this foot statue with your folks and kill this guy"
Yeah, I caught that too. The ambigous music cue and even Jack's expression! He's like "Wait... Something's not right". LOST really had some of the most thoughtful writing ever.
@@MatiZ815 "LOST really had some of the most thoughtful writing ever." -- HA HA HA they were TOTALLY making this up week to week they had no fucking idea where this story was going
Out of SO MANY epic, important, & emotionally stirring scenes, this was one of the best. Terry O'quinn's masterful performance here & all of his scenes are mesmerizing. His best work, exhibited here & in other scenes, was how he was able to convey the same mannerisms that Titus W. gave to the MIB character. You can see the MIB talking as Terry/ Locke is talking. That is unbelievable acting & ownership of one's craft
David Thorn haha damn I totally forgot about my comment. My opinion still stands. For how polar opposites John and Jack were, they both shared the same beliefs about the island in the end.
MIB is a liar. He took Christian body after scanning in 1x04 because he knew Locke would be the new Jacob. He wanted to manipulate Locke to kill Jacob (like he did with Richard or Ben). Problem: Jack is the leader "de facto" after the crash. So he tried to lure Jack into a cliff to kill him.
I don't know where you got your info from but when was it said he wanted Locke to kill Jacob? He literally influences Locke to kill himself (Keep in note, he didn't manipulate him). He didn't want Locke to kill Jacob he wanted Ben to do it
The greatest Show ever. From the First to the Last second. This scene was a masterpiece. Remembering me on the Episode the white Rabbit. Jack could been killed if Locke didnt save him. I like the Way how this Show played with our minds. Even the Soundtrack in this Scene gives me Goosebumps. I didnt watch this TV Shows today on Netflix. There was no Show who can bring this Quality today.
It's like the Island told John he had to save Jack. Like it told John to go save Eko, and like it told Eko to get John back ON the path (pressing the button). Smokey worked hard to get John to die. It specifically told John to move the Island, but didn't tell him how...to get Ben to do it so Ben could be "banished" of the Island, ahead of John. This allowed for Smokey to again manipulate John into going OFF Island and be willing to die, based on John time flashing to a point AFTER the Ajira Flight landed which meant Smokey had fore knowledge of John's journey. This allowed Smokey to plant the seed in John's mind that he had to die. He reinforced this in John's mind just before John adjusted the Donkey Wheel. Using time travel to reinforce John's specialness was another thing Smokey did to ensure that John gets tapped as Leader of the Others, giving him direct "access" to Jacob. But to do this, Smokey hedged his bets in having Ben off Island first so that he could, in case John would be willing to die, kill John, knowing Ben already tried to kill John once and would want to do it again esp..if he can come back to the Island. Then he duped Ben into following his orders, manipulating Ben into killing Jacob. So John saving Jack was a critical move for the endgame! This is because, Jack takes John's place in terms of defeating Smokey.
@@yevgeniyaleshchenko849 While I'm not a big fan of some of your older and more acerbically worded posts, I agree Westworld (esp Season One with Anthony Hopkins) was a near total masterpiece both in terms of narrative and also in terms of dialogue. Season 2 felt a bit crushed under the weight of it's own labyrinthine narrative...feeling a bit contrived to hide the real motive that Dolores had, but it had a great episode entitled "Kiksuya", S2E8, told the backstory of Akecheta and it reminded me of Richard's Ab Aeterno episode in LOST. Season 3 got some of its legs back. I'm hoping S4 is the concluding season.
Locke was not a " Sucker " he was the only person who truly loved the island and seen the positive aspects of it just like Jacob did . Jacob loved the island too ,it was his home like Locke claimed as well .so did Walt .that's why Walt and Locke were the real ideal candidates and were special . Both had strong deep rooted connections with the island like Jacob and so did Hurley in the end
The Man in Black did NOT help Jack find water on day three. He led Jack off a cliff and Locke saved him. I wonder if Jack clocks this during their conversation.
You can tell MiB was reluctant to admit it was him, but he knew claire already knew and he would lose jacks trust by lying to him, so he was forced to reveal the answer to a mystery for jack and the audience, so he tried to spin it to say he was helping him.
@@user-hu9vi7nk1lThat wasn’t the MiB, it was an apparition of Christian, like when he appeared to Jack in the waiting room at the hospital (MiB can’t leave the island). Whenever the MiB takes Christian’s appearance, he’s wearing an old looking button down shirt (with Locke in the Cabinet and donkey wheel chamber, to Claire in the Jungle, to Lapidus and Sun in Dharmaville, etc. ) Whenever we know it’s Christian’s apparition (waiting room, church, etc) he’s wearing a suit with sneakers. Those appearances of Christian are also qualitatively more similar to other apparitions on the island than they are to the other manifestations of the MiB.
@@melrupinski88 no it was mib. He doesn't have to wear the same clothes every time he appears. The Christian on the boat with Michael wasn't wearing a suit and Michael asked "who are you?" The same question eko asked yemi who was mib. Same question brahm asked fake Locke in the statue. In Richard's flashback episode he says they should stop listening to Jacob and start listening to "someone else", who they said was mib. When illana and brahm get to the cabin and burn it illana says "someone else" has been using it. It was mib regardless of clothing. Mib even admits it was him who jack was chasing. When jack visits hurley in the mental hospital hurley says Charlie had been visiting him and he said someone will be visiting jack soon. The Christian in the hospital was the real Christian. But the one on the island was always mib.
@@user-hu9vi7nk1l I’m not sure I understand your argument here. Every single instance you mentioned with the “who are you” question, is not in dispute that it was the MiB…and as you stated, he’s not wearing the suit in any of those instances. We know this because he interacts and speaks with the people to whom he appears. Ghosts/apparitions require a medium (like Hurley or Miles), or someone with sensitivity to the “supernatural” (like Ben or Jack) in order to be seen. Now, contrast those appearances to the ones Jack sees of Christian in the suit. First, the only undisputed apparition on Christian is in the hospital waiting room (we know this because the MiB can’t leave the electromagnetic bubble around the island). This apparition appears at a distance, does not speak or otherwise interact with Jack (Jack is sensitive to these phenomena, but is in denial, so he’s not a medium like Hurley or Miles), and no one else can see him. Now let’s think about the disputed appearances of Christian. He appears at a distance, and appears only to Jack (no one else sees him (or can see him - on a beach full of people, by chance alone someone would notice a guy in a suit standing in the surf), and he doesn’t interact with Jack. In other words, these apparitions on the island of Christian in the suit are qualitatively the same as the apparition in the hospital waiting room, and they are qualitatively different from every single manifestation of the MiB, no matter what form he takes. A good parallel would be Richard’s wife Isabella. She appeared on the island as both a manifestation of the MiB and as an apparition. The qualitative differences between these appearances of Isabella mirror the qualitative differences in the appearances of Christian. On final note about clothes. Yes, we know that the MiB can change clothes, but I think it’s interesting that the only time we see him actually change clothes, he’s purposely choosing to change out of a suit. Also, notice that in the flash sideways, everyone in the church has died, but none of them are wearing the clothes from their funeral…except real Christian. One could say that real Christian has chosen these clothes as his “uniform”. Finally, while not strictly canon, we see supporting evidence from the Lost mobisodes (Missing Pieces). First, Arzt sees Jack by himself running through the jungle “crying for his daddy”, as sees it as evidence as Jack being crazy, since he didn’t see anyone else there (Arzt and Crafts). Also, in So It Begins, we see suit Christian telling Vincent to go wake up his son (Jack) because “he has work to do”. Now, it doesn’t make sense for the MiB to have this conversation at all, considering that if he was manifesting as Christian, he could physically wake Jack himself, and since he only would have had Christian’s memories of Jack to go by, he would not have been aware of any “work” Jack had to do, especially since Christian died before they reached the Island. Further, this all happened instantaneously after the crash. I know that v the MiB is pretty fast, but to think that within seconds of the crash he could find Christian’s body, hide it, take his form, then find Vincent for some reason, then tell him to go wake up Jack seems unreasonable even by Lost standards. In the end (and you use this argument), the only justification that every appearance of Christian on the island is the MiB, is that he “admitted” it to Jack. So, I’m supposed to believe that the MiB, who lied to everyone he met in order to manipulate them to further his objectives, decided to tell the truth just this one time to Jack? C’mon now, I don’t buy it. It’s much more believable, and in character, for the MiB to have lied to Jack to manipulate him into thinking the MiB was looking out for him and had his best interests in mind.
LOST writers were influenced by Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with A Thousand Faces” which details “The Hero’s Journey” narrative which is present in many popular, successful and beloved stories. Jack in LOST follows the typical main hero’s journey - a reluctant hero with a fatal flaw thrust into a situation where he must act, where he is resistant to the call of destiny but eventually over time is won over by the presence of a “mystic” figure who inspires and guides him. In this case, Locke I believe was always intended as Jack’s “mystic” by the LOST writers. Locke’s death was not so much a result of how they wanted this specific story to go I feel but because him dying and inspiring the main hero was most in keeping with narrative traditions - whether it’s Obi-Wan, Yoda or Dumbledore - the most interesting, wisest and “ideal” hero always is there to teach the flawed main hero aka us the audience - the lesson of the story.
I think MIB knows that Jack is trying to piece together the events of that day. MIB as Christian tried to get Jack to run off of a cliff, and Jack only found water because Locke was there to save him.
What I love most about this scene is the atmosphere of the music as Jack and MIB stare at one another. The subtle distorted animal sounds whenever MIBS face is shown alludes that there is something very sinister and monstrous about him but we can't see it because he is using Lockes face as a cloak to disguise his true intentions. Jack can't see it but we as the audience can detect something is very wrong about him like the feeling one gets when looking at something from the uncanny valley.
He had to be dead because in order to be evil you have to kill more and more of yourself. This is symbolised in Locke having to die before the MIB could become him completely. The MIB representing the ultimate evil. The smoke represented the evil force that's an ever preset threat. Locke lost his faith, hence why he says "I don't understand" when he died and a line repeated and described as pathetic by MIBLocke, and in that disillusionment he died which in Lost they represented literally. Jack starts out without faith, Locke started with faith. These roles reverse and Locke became MIB, and Jack became Jacob. Why? Because Jacob and the MIB represent both aspects of duality of higher order of being. The Yin/Yang hence the white/black theme of the clothing. Everyone has an aspect of the MIB in them, and everyone has an aspect of Jacob. Jacobs and the MIB had 2 mothers, their birth mother and the one who raised them. The mothers were each others Shadow and represent the duality of Jacob and the MIB but another order higher than that. Jacob was the good protector rather than merely the good side, and had part of the evil in him as well. You know this because the mother who wanted to protect the island didn't give birth to them. This was to represent that evil runs deep and you cant ever quite get rid of it. Jacob was the good protector rather than merely the good side, and had part of the evil in him as well. When Jacob is passed the torch and becomes the protector of the island she tells him "now you're like me". This represents how eventually you have to let go and let your children take care of themselves. The duality of both mothers shows it's bigger than Jacob and the MIB, that they have their own history. The ancient statues on the island and special parts of the island that even the mother didn't know are to represent that who we are is built on something more ancient than merely our parents, who know parts of it but don't know all of it. The light represents the ultimate good, you could say at our heart. A transcendent good energy being passed down from generation to generation. To leave the island the MIB has to destroy the light for the same reason that Locke had to die before the MIB could completely embody him. The island represents the Self which is why it would be destroyed if the light were to go out. The idea is that evil wants to spread in the world and to do that you need to make sure that evil Shadow side of you doesn't escape. There seems to be various people on the island already and we're to understand these can be unknown to Jacob and the mother, even though Jacob is also depicted as having God-like powers. There are things Jacob doesn't know just like the mother who was there before, for the same reason as the ancient statues and relics represent the ancient structure the island is based on goes back way before them. The people on the island and the others who come to the island represent you going out into the world and interacting with others and becoming "part" of you to varying degrees. The MIB has a low opinion of other people while Jacob is hopeful. The MIB wants to use the people to help him destroy the island, and will destroy them if they're not useful. Jacob sees the good in people and brings them to the island, he spends more effort on this with some than others. Some of those who come to the island are trying to control it for their own purposes hence the Dharma Initiative that is symbolised as scientific but ultimately malevolent with Widmore. The Dharma Initiative is a reflection of the MIB and his group of people trying to do the same thing. You can see the theme of dualities and mirroring runs throughout Lost continues when the mother kills all the MIB's people and destroys his excavation attempt to get at the light after she finds out, so too the the MIB destroys the Dharma Initiative.
Locke never lost his faith when he died. He was confused because someone he trusted and thought of as a friend just killed him. I guess when he was about to kill himself you could use that as an argument but he knew he had to die to kill himself. It's the matter of if you think he killed himself because he was depressed or because he *knew* he needed too
@ChurchOfMe93 Pretty much. I always rested on the idea that he didn't kill Richard for the same reason as he approached him all those years later, as there was still that chance that he might help him (and because, unlike Eko, the actor didn't have to leave the show).
An extremely interesting conversation. I just wish the black smoke explained more about being Eko’s brother Yemi, being Christian to John Locke and Claire, and etc
I know people have pointed out when MiB lied about finding water by his eyes shifting but he also said it in the form of a question and allows Jack to nod his to indicate "That makes sense." Then he keeps talking and changes the subject before Jack could follow up with another question like, "why were you standing on the cliff I fell off of then?"
He probably chalked that up to an accident, he was probably thinking more like, why wouldnt you just say theres water there instead of mysteriously and vaguely leading me toward it.
I know a lot of people hated this show because it didn't answer every question but I'm pretty satisfied, personally. The only thing that sucks is that Walt was forgotten, but the writers weren't in complete control of that. Every series is going to have some unexpected bumps along the way which means the writers will have to stray from their original vision, but I think they did the best they could.
That same faith rewarded him though. Just not in physical life. After death he got to know what his influence led to. It led to Jack finally believing. It led to the island being saved and protected, exactly what he wanted in the first place. And he got to move on at complete peace.
@@enusdesu LOLOL. Why do you say this? Because of a stupid Reddit comment? I won't even take the time to debunk this since your not even going to reply
MiB is right; John was a zealot. He was so desperate to be special, to be guided by the island, he would listen to any sign without much (or any) critical thought. Jacob wanted people to think for themselves and make their own choices, and Locke was the opposite of that. John Locke was the perfect person for the MiB to take over--he always was.
bro he wasnt looking for that he was a good man trying his best to do good for everyone.mib manupulated him still he was ready to take his life for the islan and the people.he was mib s biggest threat because he was a believer which opposite of mib.
@@chowdhuryrased4770 MIB was able to manipulate John because John so desperately wanted to be special. Jacob wanted the candidates to be free to choose, but John forced the other survivors to stay on the island when they didn't want to.
@@JosephDanielsTC7R Jacob forced them to stay too, john locke was a good guy and its why he was allowed to see jacob. Ben asked jacob, "When he asks to see you he gets marched straight up here, so why him? what was it that was so wrong with me?"
It was obvious to me that none of them made it off the plane they all died in the crash now another twist is it could’ve all been a dream but I doubt that I think they died and were in purgatory that’s why later in the 5th season we started seeing good and evil Jacob was basically God and the Man in Black was Satan.
His development in seasons 1-4 was awesome. I hate it that he got killed, he should've been the final villain instead of MiB, having lost his faith in the Island while Jack gained it.
I think the way they did it here was fine aswell. It was essentially Locke vs Flocke in a way since Jack was the new Locke. Though if I'm being honest, Locke had no reason to get killed off to begin with.
MattAlbie what always annoyed me was in season 2 and 3, when they start having more encounters with the others, not one person asked “why can’t you just let us all leave? You clearly have the ability to, so let us go back to our normal lives”
@@SyndicateOperative That's being willfully dense and I think you know that. How is "what are you?" in any definition of the word vague when it pertains to a one a kind supernatural living smoke creature? It can be very easily answered with "I am the past incarnate, given life by the glowy pee cave light which is time" They just didn't tell the story that way because they were obsessed with this idea that being vague kept the mythology from being demystified. Noble intentions, but it backfired.
Would always wonder what would of happened if Jack and his group allowed the UnLocke leave the island with them?! What would UnLocke do to other places outside that island?! Interesting subject.
Quilian nicht HD Unless Unlocke was a psychic killer that wanted to go on a murder rampage, I don't see what harm he could of done off that island. Not mention, I don't know if the Unlocke would be adaptable to the outside world. Does he know how to use a credit card, know how to pay bills? Who knows. Jacob said if nothing is done, then this ends very badly.
they should have made 1 more episode with an alternative ending that shows Locke/MiB leaving the island like could he turn into the smoke thing if he leaves the island ?
@@orifeldman3213 Dharma folk had the sonar fence. Others used that too. He couldn’t get over the wall to get into the temple. The hatch was closed. Thats pretty much it.
The island isn’t hell, they’re not dead the whole time. Richard Alpert believed the island was Hell because the monster lied to him. Just watch ‘Ab Aeterno’ if you’re confused.
They ruined Lockes character with this crap. Parading the actor around and shitting all over the character of Locke at every opportunity. The writers didn't have a clue.
That's not Locke, its the Man in Black. The idea is to be disgusted by how the MiB uses the body of a great man, who had such faith that it ended his life.
@marco Qwerty he couldn't leave the vicinity of the island. He could go a little bit out to sea, and he could travel across to get to the second island.
@@SyndicateOperative Although I agree with you on this, how do you explain Jack seeing Christian in LA at the hospital after they've returned? Jack imagining him, or a "ghost" similar to Hurley talking to dead Charlie.
Oh oh oh look at me ! I have a very classic opinion about a show I certainly never saw entierly ! A lot of peoples says they made stuff up on the road so I'll say the same thing even if it has been proven wrong since years ! Look at me now ! I'm like a super expert on the subject with a very cool and different opinion ! I can look very thug on the internet by hammering my made up point of view ! :D
Bruh, that's what writers do. They don't write completely detailed stories well in advance, because most shows never get off the ground, or only last one or two seasons. Smh people really should get educated in how the business works!
![LOST: Jacob explains "what they died for" [6x16-What They Died For]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UMC-7genss8/mqdefault.jpg)
![LOST: Jacob explains "what they died for" [6x16-What They Died For]](/img/tr.png)
![LOST: Jack and Hurley in the Lighthouse [6x05-Lighthouse]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bCYH8MPsI68/mqdefault.jpg)
The Man in Black wore John’s face but Jack wore his spirit.
wow.
This is cool
Beautifully said
Yeeehehes!! 👏👏💪
nice
damn great comment
It was in that moment when Jack defended John Locke's faith that he became guardian of the island.
@David Roberts then how did he do that "now you're like me thing?"
U insult his memory by wearing his face..but it turns out locke was right about everything
@David Roberts of course he was
Oh yes 👍👍
"John Locke was the only one of us that ever believed in this place. He did everything he could to keep us from leaving this island"
Christians that oppose Egyptians. You have a serious problem.
the MIB shot himself in the foot by choosing to look like Locke. his appearance inspired Jack to defeat him and reminded Jack what Locke stood for
Not just that, he was in an old weak body by the time he had to fight jack. BRahm worked for jacob and told myles that if locke wasnt back on the island when the war happend the wrong side wold win
Jacks arc in season 6 was so good
The music that plays when Jack stands up for Locke
I love the change in tone at 2:10 when the music evolves as Jack processes what he's just been told and compares it with what he knows about Locke. He knows Locke was ultimately right about the Island: he's felt it inside since he left. He remembers his last conversation with Locke. He remembers Locke's letter to him. And he remembers Locke's insistence that their destiny was on the Island. His reflection on these things is why the Man in Black, almost confused, asks "What?". And then loses his cool when Jack tells him his thoughts.
The music is John Locke’s theme. :,)
Stupid people tend to say this show had no direction. It's actually amazing how well it paid off for people who paid attention.
MIB lost whatever tiny chance he might have had to manipulate Jack and possibly earn his trust when he called Locke a sucker. That was it for Jack right there. For MIB to lose his composure just that one time in the conversation, to deliver that type of vitriol toward John, ironically the same type Jack himself had thrown at Locke so many times, Jack confirmed what he needed to confirm and that MIB was the enemy. Locke's memory works through Jack this entire season and this is just one example of that. Locke's memory makes Jack realize for certain this is the big bad, not a misunderstood ally.
The devil takes many forms
Sad reality about John Locke, it's that he was always a pawn, his entire life. He thought he was special, only to be used by another person to achieve their interest.
1. His father used him to get his kidney.
2. Used by Ben many times.
3. That FBI guy gained his trust, only to get to those people growing weed and other drugs. And he considered Locke, only because he was an easy to gain trust.
4. MiB, when he slowly poisoned his mind, by believing he was special and that he understands island more than anyone else.
5.Which is most important, he was never meant to be a replacement for Jacob as an Candidate, he was used by Jacob, brought back to life when he fell from building, gotten through all the pain in life, only to be the one to make Jack believer, so last one can take Jacobs place. Everything hes gotten through, everything he did for the island, was only to make Jack believe into everything and to agree to take position.
he was a good man
Thats why MIB mocked him by saying to richard "i have a purpose now" meaning the only use in his entire existence was to be a diguise for MIB
Perhaps to have a life of purpose and meaning maybe we are only there to change the course of ONE person's life (a friend, a spouse, a coworker, a child, a stranger). Doesn't make that person's life meaningless...rather all the pains and trials the person endured have singular purpose, focus and value. Maybe recovering alcoholic's one job in life was to get sober so that he could be the Uber driver that gets that one pregnant lady safely to the hospital and the baby SHE delivers is the one who cures cancer or develops a warp core engine allowing mankind to travel across the stars. His life has purpose and all his tribulations led to something, even though he was for practical purpose a means to a greater end. Evolutionarily speaking, our ancestors who fought off bears and lions and wolves, saving their children whose children's, children's, children's, children's....children led to US. Their sacrifices in retrospect become means to an end (US). In time, our sacrifices, our perseverance will be a means to some future generation of humanity.
Also Jack's entire job was to sacrifice himself to stop MIB/Smokey and restore the Island's core!
Of all the people MiB killed, John Locke's murder is the saddest. He didnt turn into the smoke monster or blow up a bomb in a submarine to kill him. He slowly poisoned his mind as Christian and by instructing Richard to tell him to kill himself. Ben may have strangled Locke, but MiB pulled the strings
Johnny Casteel Ben murdered him, but Locke was going to kill himself (be murdered by the MiB) anyway.
@@TomCL-vb6xc Ben got his revenge against Widmore's people. Ben wanted to kill Penny as revenge for Keamy killing Alex (presumably on Widmore's orders). Now he wanted to return to the Island. Locke was HIS ONLY way back. By killing Locke, Ben was able to take on the role of pulling all the others together and get them back on the Island. Ben killed Locke so he could get back to the Island...where he felt he belonged. Once Locke revealed that Eloise Hawking was the key to the puzzle on how to get back to the Island, Ben strangled Locke. It was pure Ben all the way...feeling jealous of how special Locke was and that Locke would be "replacing" Ben as the leader of the Others.
@@TomCL-vb6xc candidates cannot suicide
When did richard tell locke to kill himself
@@mashu1766 he did
episode 1 of the fifth season
Just because Locke died doesn't mean he wasn't important. I thought season 6 made it clear how important he was. He was important to MIB for obvious reasons and he was important for Jacob because he was the one who inspired jack. Locke probably was THE candidate, but MIB got him first. Luckily for Jacob there was a failsafe, Locke's influence on Jack.
Hit the nail on the head. If you’re competing with someone let them take away your strength and think they’ve won and then you win by betting on using your perceived weakness as a strength.
Locke provided the body for MIB to become mortal, therefore the way to kill him.
newwavesoldier8
I completely agree with you. Other than that, he was important for Charles Widmore because he said he wanted to get rid of Ben so John could be someone he was always meant to be since a very long time: a leader. Ben was deeply jelous of John because he knew he was special. The Monster i think always kept an eye on John because of that and because he was one of the candidates. And yes, John would have been THE candidate if the Monster didn't intervene.
Let's think about how Jacob chose his candidates. He chose solitary and lost "souls" when they lived their normal lives. John was clearly one of them but he was findind a purpose on the island and he was the strongest candidate, speaking of connection with the island. He was special for a lot of people and for different reasons.
The Monster took his life but John finally made Jack a believer so he would replace Jacob for a short while and then he would made Hugo the next "keeper". Without John Locke no one would have replaced Jacob.
Not mib, bem killed him.
@@SigalDa Read carefully, noone said MiB killed Locke but "got to him" meaning manipulated him and drove him away from the island which led to his demise eventually
1:29 Flocke is lying. Jack almost died when he was chasing his father and got saved by Locke. The real intent was to get rid of Jack as a candidate but Locke got in the way. That's why he had to get rid of Locke because he kept messing up with his plans.
Correct he literally led him off a cliff
Yes, everything he says to Jack in that conversation (as everything he says to anyone else) is a lie. Most notably, the part of taking Christian’s appearance at that point.
@@thebigragu9952Nah, Jack tripped and rolled down the hill a good ways before reaching the cliff. Point is, that was an apparition of Christian, not the MiB taking his appearance (he lied to Jack like he lied to everyone else).
At 2:08 you can see Jack realising something's off, then immediately John Locke's theme starts and Jack knows the real John Locke was and is right, and then it gets cut off by MiB repeatedly trying to nullify John Locke by lying.
See right there...you realize just what a force of change Locke was for Jack. John Locke defeated MiB as much as any of them, even after his death because he convinced Jack of the importance of the Island and them staying on the Island. He realized...once and for all, as MiB got super defensive, that it's wrong to leave the Island! The ONLY reason Jack got on the sub is because Kate got shot. Otherwise, he wouldn't have joined them.
That made me so sad hearing John called a sucker at the end. I really wish he could have had a better life on the show.
It seems that both John and Jack had their lives cut short once they had found and embraced their purpose.
Lmfao not that sad. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but for me, it's not sad because I knew he was wrong. I guess I was a little sad. We see numerous times where MiB was proven wrong in the series.
@@masterofdragons82 He's not wrong. John Locke did turn out to be a sucker. He was wrong about the Island being "special" and "speaking to him". All of it was just MiB manipulating him the whole time, and he died alone in a hotel room, pathetically. It was really bad writing that did a disservice to a great character.
@@terracottapie Well no, it was great writing. John's story was a tragedy from the very beginning. He found his purpose and WAS special. Not every single interaction John had with the island was a manipulation by the Man in Black. The Island is special and he did have some form of communion with it. And he was a candidate, one of the final few predestined by the numbers. However he was too trusting and easily led and that was established many times throughout the show. So he was able to be manipulated by the MiB and that led to his death.
@@jxsh03 In John's own words: he was the sacrifice that the Island demanded. John needed to die for Jack to find his faith. He was a tragic hero, a piece in the masterplan he didn't know existed.
“Where’s Desmond, by the way?”
“Don’t worry, he’s doing WELL.”
I saw Locke as MiB's biggest threat, even more than Jacob (who doesn't intervene), so he went out of his way to pull some strings and get rid of Locke before he figures out the meaning behind all this.
Exactly. If Locke had actually found out he had the chance to become a tropical demigod and fight the Smoke Monster, he would not have hesitated to take it.
That's how important Locke was. But, I don't think he was manipulated. I mean think about it. He NEEDED to die for them to come back. Jacob knew that and Locke did too.
@@masterofdragons82 No he was manipulated, it was exactly the MIB who told richard to tell Locke that he has to die so they comeback to the island, the MIB influenced Locke to die
@@medm4496 Weren’t you the same guy I was debating about this a while ago?
The finale explains this perfectly. Ben tells Locke 'because I wanted everything you had. You were SPECIAL John, and I wasn't.'
That scene I found very moving and brought me to tears. Finally, Ben coming to terms with how bad a person he was during his life up to when Hugo took over the running of the island. Ben was regretting killing many people and was now having to confront all his issues before he could move on to a higher level with the others in the church.
@@showmoke .. I don't see Ben as "bad" at all. Ben the character was purposely & perfectly presented to the audience as a villain but lets take a look at Ben in totality. Was he "kidnapping" children? No, we find out from Carl that they were trying to give orphaned kids, or kids brought to the island from parents not on Jacob's lists (thus not people worth redemption). We also learn he stole Alex to avoid killing Rousseau. Ben was person that grew up in a world in which not a single adult or person ever loved him...NOT ONE, immensely sad when you think about it, it made sense that he fell in love with the island.
Asking John to kill his own father. This wasn't to embarrass John, it was in Ben's mind what someone had to do in order to become the new "leader" on the island, as he had to do to his own father years before.
Moving on to the killing of Alex, as Ben stated, and Keamy didn't deny, if Ben went with him Keamy he was instructed to kill every man, woman, and child on the island. So Ben sacrificed his Alex for everyone else. Sure Ben felt guilty forever for this (as he should) but as an audience Ben's deed ensured our characters fulfilled their destiny. Ben was given a list from Jacob way back when the plane crashed, he would never had hurt anyone on that list.
Sure Ben did manipulative things but most of them were to retain power or because he himself was being manipulated. In the end Ben brought everyone back. Even Hurley saw the good in Ben in the end.
1 final thought I have always had during this scene.
Lot has been made about Ben not going inside, but you also notice something strange. Ben never moves his legs in the scene. I believe Locke brought the wheelchair for Ben who is now crippled by his own inability to forgive himself. Just as the transference from John to Ben played out in Season 3. Ben
@@tony.g20 - I agree, in the end Ben had remorse for all the bad things that he had done (both on and off the island). For a start he murdered quite a few people including his own father! He even admitted that he had done wrong when he sacrificed Alex so that he could keep his power which he said when he pointed a gun at Alania (was that her name?) - the ‘I want to explain’ speech. That scene I found incredibly moving and it was the first real sign of remorse that we saw coming from Ben. He said that he wanted to go to ‘Locke’, because he was the only one that would have him. At which point, Alania said ‘I’ll have you’, which amazed Ben and Ben then walked back with Alania to the others. I was in tears at that point. So, yes, redemption was very much the thing for Ben near the end. Not sure your right though regarding Ben being disabled outside the Church - I don’t go with that personally.
@@showmoke love the Alana scene, and yes I have no idea if I am right on the transference, but it makes more sense than Ben still had things to work out. As Christian explains there is no time "here" so it therefore didn't matter how long it took Ben to forgive himself.
@@tony.g20 - thinking about it, there was an extra episode shown after the series was finished which featured Ben meeting some Dharma employees in a warehouse and paying them off and closing the whole Dharma organisation down. At that stage, he wasn’t ‘disabled’ at all, but of course that would have been before he would have died. I don’t know if that episode was released on terrestrial TV, or just on UA-cam only.
The soundtrack that comes in when Jack starts defending John. God, the chills!
I've always like when MIB tells Jack he trying to help him in "White Rabbit". If you remember, Jack almost falls off a cliff chasing his father. If John Locke isn't there to save him, bye bye candidate #23. There's even a music cue during this scene to maybe hint that's lying: 1:29 . He even looks to the right before he tells Jack this, Locke being right handed, this signals that he is totally trying to manipulate Jack. Just something to share.
That's right the Monster tried to kill Jack because Locke could be the leader and then "hey i'm the island Locke listen to me, go to this foot statue with your folks and kill this guy"
Yeah, I caught that too. The ambigous music cue and even Jack's expression! He's like "Wait... Something's not right". LOST really had some of the most thoughtful writing ever.
Smokey tried to send jack off a cliff but alpha badass locke saved him
@@MatiZ815 "LOST really had some of the most thoughtful writing ever." -- HA HA HA
they were TOTALLY making this up week to week
they had no fucking idea where this story was going
@@firstname4337 no they weren't
Out of SO MANY epic, important, & emotionally stirring scenes, this was one of the best. Terry O'quinn's masterful performance here & all of his scenes are mesmerizing. His best work, exhibited here & in other scenes, was how he was able to convey the same mannerisms that Titus W. gave to the MIB character. You can see the MIB talking as Terry/ Locke is talking. That is unbelievable acting & ownership of one's craft
"I chased my father through the jungle-" MiB: "Well... go on..."
I really wish the finale showed a convo of Jack and John. It would have been great to see Jack say "You were right" or something like that
JLlo64 so true
It's not just that though
I never thought about this until I saw your comment .. thanks haha
David Thorn haha damn I totally forgot about my comment. My opinion still stands. For how polar opposites John and Jack were, they both shared the same beliefs about the island in the end.
@@Kaiser8361N Holy shit you came back after 8 years just to coment, epic hahahaha
@kal1472
Yes! Some have speculated that making Jack a believer WAS Locke's purpose in the first place.
Happy birthday jack alias terry from italian boy live in rome and I m fan of lost
Happy birthday jack from italian boy live in rome and I m fan of lost
I like the symbolism of MIB standing and Jack rising to meet him at the same time
MIB is a liar. He took Christian body after scanning in 1x04 because he knew Locke would be the new Jacob. He wanted to manipulate Locke to kill Jacob (like he did with Richard or Ben).
Problem: Jack is the leader "de facto" after the crash.
So he tried to lure Jack into a cliff to kill him.
I don't know where you got your info from but when was it said he wanted Locke to kill Jacob? He literally influences Locke to kill himself (Keep in note, he didn't manipulate him). He didn't want Locke to kill Jacob he wanted Ben to do it
@JLlo64 I think when Jack and Locke shake each others hands in the church speaks volumes.
The greatest Show ever. From the First to the Last second. This scene was a masterpiece. Remembering me on the Episode the white Rabbit. Jack could been killed if Locke didnt save him. I like the Way how this Show played with our minds. Even the Soundtrack in this Scene gives me Goosebumps. I didnt watch this TV Shows today on Netflix. There was no Show who can bring this Quality today.
It really is the greatest show ever but try Westworld. It also fucks with your mind
It's like the Island told John he had to save Jack. Like it told John to go save Eko, and like it told Eko to get John back ON the path (pressing the button). Smokey worked hard to get John to die. It specifically told John to move the Island, but didn't tell him how...to get Ben to do it so Ben could be "banished" of the Island, ahead of John. This allowed for Smokey to again manipulate John into going OFF Island and be willing to die, based on John time flashing to a point AFTER the Ajira Flight landed which meant Smokey had fore knowledge of John's journey. This allowed Smokey to plant the seed in John's mind that he had to die. He reinforced this in John's mind just before John adjusted the Donkey Wheel. Using time travel to reinforce John's specialness was another thing Smokey did to ensure that John gets tapped as Leader of the Others, giving him direct "access" to Jacob. But to do this, Smokey hedged his bets in having Ben off Island first so that he could, in case John would be willing to die, kill John, knowing Ben already tried to kill John once and would want to do it again esp..if he can come back to the Island. Then he duped Ben into following his orders, manipulating Ben into killing Jacob. So John saving Jack was a critical move for the endgame! This is because, Jack takes John's place in terms of defeating Smokey.
@@yevgeniyaleshchenko849 While I'm not a big fan of some of your older and more acerbically worded posts, I agree Westworld (esp Season One with Anthony Hopkins) was a near total masterpiece both in terms of narrative and also in terms of dialogue. Season 2 felt a bit crushed under the weight of it's own labyrinthine narrative...feeling a bit contrived to hide the real motive that Dolores had, but it had a great episode entitled "Kiksuya", S2E8, told the backstory of Akecheta and it reminded me of Richard's Ab Aeterno episode in LOST. Season 3 got some of its legs back. I'm hoping S4 is the concluding season.
Even the Thailand episode lol?
Locke was not a " Sucker " he was the only person who truly loved the island and seen the positive aspects of it just like Jacob did . Jacob loved the island too ,it was his home like Locke claimed as well .so did Walt .that's why Walt and Locke were the real ideal candidates and were special . Both had strong deep rooted connections with the island like Jacob and so did Hurley in the end
Exactly!👌
@2:15 - end "John Locke was not a believer Jack." Jack couldn't believe that it had to be said from John Locke's mouth.
Why John Locke?
Because the fans loved Terry O'Quinn's performance and they wouldn't watch the show without him!
😁
Oh my god so many questions are answered right here that I forgot. Thanks!
The Man in Black did NOT help Jack find water on day three. He led Jack off a cliff and Locke saved him. I wonder if Jack clocks this during their conversation.
It probabl crossed his mind a few times and helped him figure out mib's plan on the sub.
You can tell MiB was reluctant to admit it was him, but he knew claire already knew and he would lose jacks trust by lying to him, so he was forced to reveal the answer to a mystery for jack and the audience, so he tried to spin it to say he was helping him.
@@user-hu9vi7nk1lThat wasn’t the MiB, it was an apparition of Christian, like when he appeared to Jack in the waiting room at the hospital (MiB can’t leave the island).
Whenever the MiB takes Christian’s appearance, he’s wearing an old looking button down shirt (with Locke in the Cabinet and donkey wheel chamber, to Claire in the Jungle, to Lapidus and Sun in Dharmaville, etc. ) Whenever we know it’s Christian’s apparition (waiting room, church, etc) he’s wearing a suit with sneakers.
Those appearances of Christian are also qualitatively more similar to other apparitions on the island than they are to the other manifestations of the MiB.
@@melrupinski88 no it was mib. He doesn't have to wear the same clothes every time he appears. The Christian on the boat with Michael wasn't wearing a suit and Michael asked "who are you?" The same question eko asked yemi who was mib. Same question brahm asked fake Locke in the statue. In Richard's flashback episode he says they should stop listening to Jacob and start listening to "someone else", who they said was mib. When illana and brahm get to the cabin and burn it illana says "someone else" has been using it. It was mib regardless of clothing. Mib even admits it was him who jack was chasing.
When jack visits hurley in the mental hospital hurley says Charlie had been visiting him and he said someone will be visiting jack soon. The Christian in the hospital was the real Christian. But the one on the island was always mib.
@@user-hu9vi7nk1l I’m not sure I understand your argument here. Every single instance you mentioned with the “who are you” question, is not in dispute that it was the MiB…and as you stated, he’s not wearing the suit in any of those instances. We know this because he interacts and speaks with the people to whom he appears. Ghosts/apparitions require a medium (like Hurley or Miles), or someone with sensitivity to the “supernatural” (like Ben or Jack) in order to be seen.
Now, contrast those appearances to the ones Jack sees of Christian in the suit. First, the only undisputed apparition on Christian is in the hospital waiting room (we know this because the MiB can’t leave the electromagnetic bubble around the island). This apparition appears at a distance, does not speak or otherwise interact with Jack (Jack is sensitive to these phenomena, but is in denial, so he’s not a medium like Hurley or Miles), and no one else can see him. Now let’s think about the disputed appearances of Christian. He appears at a distance, and appears only to Jack (no one else sees him (or can see him - on a beach full of people, by chance alone someone would notice a guy in a suit standing in the surf), and he doesn’t interact with Jack.
In other words, these apparitions on the island of Christian in the suit are qualitatively the same as the apparition in the hospital waiting room, and they are qualitatively different from every single manifestation of the MiB, no matter what form he takes. A good parallel would be Richard’s wife Isabella. She appeared on the island as both a manifestation of the MiB and as an apparition. The qualitative differences between these appearances of Isabella mirror the qualitative differences in the appearances of Christian.
On final note about clothes. Yes, we know that the MiB can change clothes, but I think it’s interesting that the only time we see him actually change clothes, he’s purposely choosing to change out of a suit. Also, notice that in the flash sideways, everyone in the church has died, but none of them are wearing the clothes from their funeral…except real Christian. One could say that real Christian has chosen these clothes as his “uniform”.
Finally, while not strictly canon, we see supporting evidence from the Lost mobisodes (Missing Pieces). First, Arzt sees Jack by himself running through the jungle “crying for his daddy”, as sees it as evidence as Jack being crazy, since he didn’t see anyone else there (Arzt and Crafts). Also, in So It Begins, we see suit Christian telling Vincent to go wake up his son (Jack) because “he has work to do”. Now, it doesn’t make sense for the MiB to have this conversation at all, considering that if he was manifesting as Christian, he could physically wake Jack himself, and since he only would have had Christian’s memories of Jack to go by, he would not have been aware of any “work” Jack had to do, especially since Christian died before they reached the Island. Further, this all happened instantaneously after the crash. I know that v the MiB is pretty fast, but to think that within seconds of the crash he could find Christian’s body, hide it, take his form, then find Vincent for some reason, then tell him to go wake up Jack seems unreasonable even by Lost standards.
In the end (and you use this argument), the only justification that every appearance of Christian on the island is the MiB, is that he “admitted” it to Jack. So, I’m supposed to believe that the MiB, who lied to everyone he met in order to manipulate them to further his objectives, decided to tell the truth just this one time to Jack? C’mon now, I don’t buy it. It’s much more believable, and in character, for the MiB to have lied to Jack to manipulate him into thinking the MiB was looking out for him and had his best interests in mind.
I love how in season 6 they mention season 1 epic!!
Season 6 was an endless string of callbacks to season 1, which tells me that all other seasons were mostly filler
@Wadsy absolutely correct. Maybe jack forgot? It was long ago
@@thelavinator6343 they were not filler at all, they were adding to the story.
@@kbanghart it wouldve been nice if there wouldve been more polar bear attacks, instead of all the drama and love triangles
@@thelavinator6343 lol
God, I love this show so much.
Brandon Hanna me too. I’m rewatching it on Hulu.
@@PatPauloMMA I seriously need to rewatch the entire thing ASAP. Hulu gives you a month free right?
@@kbanghart Or try Amazon Prime, which gives you a month's free trial too.
Happy birthday locke from italian boy live in rome and I m fan of lost
@rob87s Also at 1:31 he is trying to remember exactly what happened in that situation.... because MiB almost made him fall off a cliff.
2:10 for me, a beautiful moment...and a sad one.
0:53 "also, Terry O'Quinn has a contract to the end of the series"
Locke had to die in order for Jack to believe
LOST writers were influenced by Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with A Thousand Faces” which details “The Hero’s Journey” narrative which is present in many popular, successful and beloved stories.
Jack in LOST follows the typical main hero’s journey - a reluctant hero with a fatal flaw thrust into a situation where he must act, where he is resistant to the call of destiny but eventually over time is won over by the presence of a “mystic” figure who inspires and guides him. In this case, Locke I believe was always intended as Jack’s “mystic” by the LOST writers.
Locke’s death was not so much a result of how they wanted this specific story to go I feel but because him dying and inspiring the main hero was most in keeping with narrative traditions - whether it’s Obi-Wan, Yoda or Dumbledore - the most interesting, wisest and “ideal” hero always is there to teach the flawed main hero aka us the audience - the lesson of the story.
Yes, a very common theme
The cool thing about this scene is, is that its very similar to the scene in "White Rabbit". Except its in darkness, not light.
I don’t know why, but the face MIB makes when Jack asks him about seeing his dead father creeps the hell out of me.
I think MIB knows that Jack is trying to piece together the events of that day. MIB as Christian tried to get Jack to run off of a cliff, and Jack only found water because Locke was there to save him.
What I love most about this scene is the atmosphere of the music as Jack and MIB stare at one another. The subtle distorted animal sounds whenever MIBS face is shown alludes that there is something very sinister and monstrous about him but we can't see it because he is using Lockes face as a cloak to disguise his true intentions. Jack can't see it but we as the audience can detect something is very wrong about him like the feeling one gets when looking at something from the uncanny valley.
He doesnt break eye contact because hes so confident whereas john was very weak and uncertain of himself.
Is there a video anywhere when Jack finally meets MiB? It wad the episode before this one right at the end.
classic conversion
@cbcurtis85 little details like that makes lost soooo good.
@ChurchOfMe93 Thanks to Richard's episode, the audience thankfully knows why he did.
Shoutout to Terry O’Quinn for his amazing performance. The way he changed his mannerisms and the way he speaks makes it obvious this isn’t John Locke
He had to be dead because in order to be evil you have to kill more and more of yourself. This is symbolised in Locke having to die before the MIB could become him completely. The MIB representing the ultimate evil. The smoke represented the evil force that's an ever preset threat.
Locke lost his faith, hence why he says "I don't understand" when he died and a line repeated and described as pathetic by MIBLocke, and in that disillusionment he died which in Lost they represented literally.
Jack starts out without faith, Locke started with faith. These roles reverse and Locke became MIB, and Jack became Jacob. Why? Because Jacob and the MIB represent both aspects of duality of higher order of being. The Yin/Yang hence the white/black theme of the clothing. Everyone has an aspect of the MIB in them, and everyone has an aspect of Jacob.
Jacobs and the MIB had 2 mothers, their birth mother and the one who raised them. The mothers were each others Shadow and represent the duality of Jacob and the MIB but another order higher than that. Jacob was the good protector rather than merely the good side, and had part of the evil in him as well. You know this because the mother who wanted to protect the island didn't give birth to them. This was to represent that evil runs deep and you cant ever quite get rid of it. Jacob was the good protector rather than merely the good side, and had part of the evil in him as well. When Jacob is passed the torch and becomes the protector of the island she tells him "now you're like me". This represents how eventually you have to let go and let your children take care of themselves.
The duality of both mothers shows it's bigger than Jacob and the MIB, that they have their own history. The ancient statues on the island and special parts of the island that even the mother didn't know are to represent that who we are is built on something more ancient than merely our parents, who know parts of it but don't know all of it. The light represents the ultimate good, you could say at our heart. A transcendent good energy being passed down from generation to generation.
To leave the island the MIB has to destroy the light for the same reason that Locke had to die before the MIB could completely embody him. The island represents the Self which is why it would be destroyed if the light were to go out. The idea is that evil wants to spread in the world and to do that you need to make sure that evil Shadow side of you doesn't escape.
There seems to be various people on the island already and we're to understand these can be unknown to Jacob and the mother, even though Jacob is also depicted as having God-like powers. There are things Jacob doesn't know just like the mother who was there before, for the same reason as the ancient statues and relics represent the ancient structure the island is based on goes back way before them. The people on the island and the others who come to the island represent you going out into the world and interacting with others and becoming "part" of you to varying degrees. The MIB has a low opinion of other people while Jacob is hopeful. The MIB wants to use the people to help him destroy the island, and will destroy them if they're not useful.
Jacob sees the good in people and brings them to the island, he spends more effort on this with some than others. Some of those who come to the island are trying to control it for their own purposes hence the Dharma Initiative that is symbolised as scientific but ultimately malevolent with Widmore. The Dharma Initiative is a reflection of the MIB and his group of people trying to do the same thing. You can see the theme of dualities and mirroring runs throughout Lost continues when the mother kills all the MIB's people and destroys his excavation attempt to get at the light after she finds out, so too the the MIB destroys the Dharma Initiative.
Locke never lost his faith when he died. He was confused because someone he trusted and thought of as a friend just killed him. I guess when he was about to kill himself you could use that as an argument but he knew he had to die to kill himself. It's the matter of if you think he killed himself because he was depressed or because he *knew* he needed too
Today jack 71 years
I’m literally on the ending pt 1 rn. Man this was a thrilling ride
Season 6 was the best
Best Fucking show every! Fight Me
Classic! All time show:)
Today locke 71 years
@ChurchOfMe93 Pretty much. I always rested on the idea that he didn't kill Richard for the same reason as he approached him all those years later, as there was still that chance that he might help him (and because, unlike Eko, the actor didn't have to leave the show).
Jack- “the third day we were here, i chased my father through the jungle, my dead father”
It was the sixth day you was on the island actually Jack
seems quite realistic for Jack to be a little off here
He was sleep deprived at the time I don’t blame him for not having the clearest memory of the early island days
I would have so many other questions for this guy.
An extremely interesting conversation. I just wish the black smoke explained more about being Eko’s brother Yemi, being Christian to John Locke and Claire, and etc
What to explain, he manipulated all of them.
I know people have pointed out when MiB lied about finding water by his eyes shifting but he also said it in the form of a question and allows Jack to nod his to indicate "That makes sense." Then he keeps talking and changes the subject before Jack could follow up with another question like, "why were you standing on the cliff I fell off of then?"
He probably chalked that up to an accident, he was probably thinking more like, why wouldnt you just say theres water there instead of mysteriously and vaguely leading me toward it.
I know a lot of people hated this show because it didn't answer every question but I'm pretty satisfied, personally. The only thing that sucks is that Walt was forgotten, but the writers weren't in complete control of that.
Every series is going to have some unexpected bumps along the way which means the writers will have to stray from their original vision, but I think they did the best they could.
Walt became the next Protector of the Island after Hurley. That poor boy went through so much at such a young age.
Walt was in the epilogue thing
@@TJMalana I dont think he was the next protector, hurley just got it, he probably just helped hurley like richard helped jacob.
Jacks pose with the gun 😏👍
Locke was a belieber
Poor John, manipulated into death. So well that he wanted to die. Faith killed him. So sad...
Yes, heartbreaking, really...
@@yevgeniyaleshchenko849 I wonder how many wrong things we do because of our blind believes...
That same faith rewarded him though. Just not in physical life. After death he got to know what his influence led to. It led to Jack finally believing. It led to the island being saved and protected, exactly what he wanted in the first place. And he got to move on at complete peace.
@@enusdesu LOLOL. Why do you say this? Because of a stupid Reddit comment? I won't even take the time to debunk this since your not even going to reply
@@Jay-eq9gb coincidence...
MiB is right; John was a zealot. He was so desperate to be special, to be guided by the island, he would listen to any sign without much (or any) critical thought. Jacob wanted people to think for themselves and make their own choices, and Locke was the opposite of that. John Locke was the perfect person for the MiB to take over--he always was.
bro he wasnt looking for that he was a good man trying his best to do good for everyone.mib manupulated him still he was ready to take his life for the islan and the people.he was mib s biggest threat because he was a believer which opposite of mib.
@@chowdhuryrased4770 MIB was able to manipulate John because John so desperately wanted to be special. Jacob wanted the candidates to be free to choose, but John forced the other survivors to stay on the island when they didn't want to.
@@JosephDanielsTC7R Jacob forced them to stay too, john locke was a good guy and its why he was allowed to see jacob. Ben asked jacob, "When he asks to see you he gets marched straight up here, so why him? what was it that was so wrong with me?"
It was obvious to me that none of them made it off the plane they all died in the crash now another twist is it could’ve all been a dream but I doubt that I think they died and were in purgatory that’s why later in the 5th season we started seeing good and evil Jacob was basically God and the Man in Black was Satan.
MIB's fake mum killed his whole camp and Jacob sgot angry because he killed her? Of course he would.
His development in seasons 1-4 was awesome. I hate it that he got killed, he should've been the final villain instead of MiB, having lost his faith in the Island while Jack gained it.
I think the way they did it here was fine aswell. It was essentially Locke vs Flocke in a way since Jack was the new Locke. Though if I'm being honest, Locke had no reason to get killed off to begin with.
Did John drain the hog blood?! Saving it?!
I love how characters on Lost don't ask the obvious questions like... WHAT ARE YOU? HOW ARE YOU? WHAT IS THIS ISLAND?
Well they all did at first but then why bother lol
I mean, what is anyone supposed to say to such vague questions? "I'm the antagonist of the story!"?
MattAlbie what always annoyed me was in season 2 and 3, when they start having more encounters with the others, not one person asked “why can’t you just let us all leave? You clearly have the ability to, so let us go back to our normal lives”
@@SyndicateOperative god you're a fucking idiot
@@SyndicateOperative That's being willfully dense and I think you know that. How is "what are you?" in any definition of the word vague when it pertains to a one a kind supernatural living smoke creature? It can be very easily answered with "I am the past incarnate, given life by the glowy pee cave light which is time" They just didn't tell the story that way because they were obsessed with this idea that being vague kept the mythology from being demystified. Noble intentions, but it backfired.
Would always wonder what would of happened if Jack and his group allowed the UnLocke leave the island with them?! What would UnLocke do to other places outside that island?! Interesting subject.
Michael Tardi But they didn't had to stop UnLocke after he lost his special power.
Quilian nicht HD I know, so what would of happened?! Unlocke apparently wasn't a threat to the world after losing his powers.
Michael Tardi I think he would be happy to be free after 2000 years trapped on the island.
Quilian nicht HD Unless Unlocke was a psychic killer that wanted to go on a murder rampage, I don't see what harm he could of done off that island. Not mention, I don't know if the Unlocke would be adaptable to the outside world. Does he know how to use a credit card, know how to pay bills? Who knows. Jacob said if nothing is done, then this ends very badly.
Michael Tardi That's the question. But I have another question: What was in his backpack? Water? Knives? Or something different?
please, make subtitles by lost's videos.
they should have made 1 more episode with an alternative ending that shows Locke/MiB leaving the island like could he turn into the smoke thing if he leaves the island ?
Why did mib kill Eko, the pilot and the French team and not other people?
He killed Eko because he could. He was no longer a candidate. The pilot wasn’t a candidate and neither was the French team.
@@thebigragu9952 many other people weren't candidates
@@orifeldman3213 Dharma folk had the sonar fence. Others used that too. He couldn’t get over the wall to get into the temple. The hatch was closed. Thats pretty much it.
"you told her not to talk to me that made her pointless"
@@user-hu9vi7nk1l what does it have to do with the people I mentioned?
why did no one ask him about eko?
Irelands Pacifist because nobody saw ekos death except Locke who was dead and sayid who was on the “dark side” at this point
if the island is hell, and MIB wants to leave, taking everyone with him. is he really the bad guy ?
The island isn’t hell, they’re not dead the whole time. Richard Alpert believed the island was Hell because the monster lied to him. Just watch ‘Ab Aeterno’ if you’re confused.
Great show but the producers should be shot at how that treated locke. That is pathetic.
It's not Locke. It's some entity passing off as him.
Everything after season 3 is non canon
the lavinator is not
Season 5 is the only weak season, in my opinion.
They ruined Lockes character with this crap. Parading the actor around and shitting all over the character of Locke at every opportunity. The writers didn't have a clue.
How is it ruining him?
@@qwertymanor This isn't John Locke, it's The Man in Black, and it just sours my experience of the John Locke character.
That's not Locke, its the Man in Black. The idea is to be disgusted by how the MiB uses the body of a great man, who had such faith that it ended his life.
@@oce1989 The writers did the exact job they wanted to do if you feel that way. They want you to be upset about the MIB crap talking John.
Funny how people that don’t have clue on what’s going on point to people who know what they are doing.😂
MiB is lying!!! He wasn't Jack's father's ghost!!!
Whenever you saw Christian on the Island, it was MiB.
Christian on the Kahana that says"Now you can go,Michael" is the real spirit of Christian.Mib can't leave the island so....
@marco Qwerty he couldn't leave the vicinity of the island. He could go a little bit out to sea, and he could travel across to get to the second island.
@@SyndicateOperative Although I agree with you on this, how do you explain Jack seeing Christian in LA at the hospital after they've returned? Jack imagining him, or a "ghost" similar to Hurley talking to dead Charlie.
Yes, he was. He was also Yemi on the island and Ben's mother.
stupidest series ever
the writers were totally making stuff up week to week
they had no idea where they were going
Oh oh oh look at me ! I have a very classic opinion about a show I certainly never saw entierly ! A lot of peoples says they made stuff up on the road so I'll say the same thing even if it has been proven wrong since years !
Look at me now ! I'm like a super expert on the subject with a very cool and different opinion ! I can look very thug on the internet by hammering my made up point of view ! :D
first name lol you act like you are a better writer then they are
Bruh, that's what writers do. They don't write completely detailed stories well in advance, because most shows never get off the ground, or only last one or two seasons. Smh people really should get educated in how the business works!