Finding Your Place in FaB & Dealing with Change | Flesh and Blood TCG | Go Again! Ep486
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Today we're joined by Steven, who shares his perspective on 'weekend warrior' gaming in Flesh and Blood.
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This is one of the things I think MTG has gotten right over the last years with Magic Fest type events. They still have a competitive event (Pro/Worlds/etc) event as part of the weekend but have tons of side events, panels, open play, etc while still having prize walls, stores, vendors, etc and different tiers or packages for attendees so that even if you aren’t in the PT you can still get the swag (playmat, promo cards, etc) that are unique to that event.
As a causal I have attended a PT (Lille) just to hang out, play side events, and enjoy the environment too as part of a vacation. But several times a year do this with MTG events with my son - they are advertised well in advance, have tons of stuff for the non-pro competitors while the pros can still do their thing, and between side events, the Command Zone, etc can guarantee tons of games and attendees for casuals too.
The main difference is the marketing. The FaB events are marketed directly at the Pros ….. which IMO is backwards- the Pros are going to be there regardless if they qualified. They need to market more side events, vendors, artists, etc - the festival aspect and offer packages where the casuals can still get the swag as well.
I was braced for some comments with flak after this video (which still may be incoming), and was unprepared for the positive support! Thanks all. Go commando!
I totally resonated with what you wrote Steven.
Steve! You’re the best! Miss ya, loved hearing you talk about this - much of it is a large part of why I haven’t played nearly at all since the Commoner Crawl I saw you at awhile ago (even the response from new people I met there was like what you described here).
@@Nathanialjgyou took flak at a crawl? That's troubling to hear.
@@andrewheintz6624 flak feels a bit strong, but I definitely sensed some judgment in some (relatively few! But still some) conversations in the space between “I’ve been playing since late 2019” and “I get out and play maybe once or twice every four to six months.” - and some of it was micro, just in how responses like “oh I play five nights a week at different game shops around town” were phrased/toned, so totally could be misperception on my part!
Honestly this is why I go to the big events like LA.
Where all I did was side events and making tickets while all the very competitive players try hard at Nats/Calling/Hardened.
Got my 3 Epots and had a delight averaging 3:0 at Sealed 😊
Plus pulling a RF scales ⚖️ was super nice 👍
Able to get some great deals and help friends get enough tickets to get the tokens they wanted 😊
Great topic and hits perfectly. I would say that the situation is almost exactly the same. I'm into FAB mostly for the outstanding player community in my area. Shout out to DMV Feisty Locals for being so .... Awesome. It can be tough following the competitive meta and changes to this game but I've never had a bad play experience ...even at more competitive events. With my own kids on the older side and starting college I'm looking forward to being able to spend more time on the hobby, but it's just nice to be able to dip my toes back in for now while still being a welcomed part of the local community here.
Im lucky that i can attend 2 events a week, but i can definitely relate to not feeling like i belong in the competitive events.
The RTN event my store ran had a 48 person cap due to space issues and a couple of the guys i play with regularly asked me to give up my pre-reg spot so they could play. They were polite and respectful about it but it did put it into persepctive that "Hey im not here thinking i have a chance of winning, i should probably give this spot to someone whos had the time to practice and theory craft etc to maybe take it down." Its a difficult feeling to properly describe in a UA-cam comment but i really felt that i was going to be an outcast at the event, potentially ruining someone's experience if i happen to steal a win off them in an early round and then just loose out.
FaB is for everyone. Hopefully if the game keeps growing more and more formats can be found at LGS's. I have definitely felt this way at times in the competitive events.
Steven,
You are one of the most fun people sit down across from, it's always a blast!
Hopefully you continue to find that enjoyment in FaB, and grinders like me who are oftentimes overly serious about a game don't scare you away from it.
Take care and best of luck!
this resonates with me so much. our LGS armories used to fire consistently and one by one we lost people to their busy lives. after recently becoming a dad I get it. now i look forward to any chance i have to be able to go
Excellent conversation and good topic. I've seen lots of people who are not super competitive struggle to find a place in the community -- more so than I see it happen in other games. I am not sure why that it is.
I as FaB dad....feels similary. My armory is almost out of reach because my son have afterschool activities that day. So as you say it is much more real to get pass from wife and responsibilities on weekend that during week.
And people at locals are great and I try to be active as much as I can but it is still limited.
I think there is need (market) for more weekend lower profile (less competetive) events. Something like what social kit are for.something je get in morning and will leave earlier afternoon and have still almost whole day for other things.
Honestly his was a really good listen because I am very interested in flesh and blood but there is no community so I am trying to think of ways to start.
Looking at local libraries to reserve community rooms.
Absolutely loved this chat! I'm not a dad but I'm also a "weekend warrior" and this as a whole resonated with me. I think LSS should introduce more variety of ways to enjoy the game. Round The Table is a good step into this direction in my opinion, and from here, I think they should do something like start selling playmats and official dice at LGS, so players and groups that can't go to Armories and other events all the time can still enjoy it at their own different paces. But at the same time, these varieties should not reduce from the competitive scene. I know they'll think of something so I'll be patient. Go Commando!
Steve is awesome! I played him round 1 in the goin pre release. He’s always in great spirits and great to have around in the community. He takes a loss with a massive smile and is so kind.
"If I didn't know how to lose graciously, I'd never appear gracious" haha! I always take away an education after playing Tristan! Great games brother
This talk really resonated with me, and I think highlights one of the biggest hurdles FAB has going forward. It’s clearly captured the attention of TCG pros, but more casual players are being left in the dust.
My closest LGS has a dedicated but small FAB scene of 3-6 players a week. It used to be more like 10-14+ but I think something changed a few Skirmish seasons ago when a bunch of spikier players came out and absolutely trounced most of the locals. There are several pro or aspiring pro players in the wider region and, while I think they should be free to attend the events that they want, I also think they’re stifling the growth of the game a bit.
I think prize support is both a big positive and negative -FAB is the rare game that can actually net players positive EV if they win 1st or 2nd and they flip the prizes for cash. That’s honestly amazing, but I think it feels bad when the same 5 players can go around from RTN to RTN in the region and continue to win high end prizes only to sell. It’s discouraging to casual players like us who want to test their skills in the arena, but realistically don’t stand a chance because life stops us from being able to get reps in. Limited formats can help balance that out a bit, but it’s not the perfect solution as you discuss in the episode.
I also think community-run events is an option to keep casual players invested in the game, but that requires a lot of work from an individual or group of individuals to step up and run. It is inspiring to see and hear about such efforts around the world!
There don’t seem to be any easy solutions here, but hopefully LSS is already working on something. On the note of prizing, I think they might see some success if they tried a booster-style prize like other TCGs do, with random contents that contain rare drops.
Their eventual PVE format may play a role in the casual crowd and maybe their upcoming Learn-To-Play product will help here as well.
Thanks for the discussion, this is a really important topic and I feel seen!
Great cast guys! Much love to both of you for bringing these feelings and experiences to the community. I think there are learnings here for players of all levels to strive for inclusivity and making people feel not just welcome but valued at the events we organize.
Sorry in advance this is a bit of a long one.
Thank you so much for spending the time to put out this video I got to say this one really resonated with me.
My daughter was born almost a year ago and I've been really trying to understand how to balance my hobby time with the needs of being a partner and a husband and that of being a father.
First off I don't want to take away anything from Portland but I do want to clarify a term that is absolutely apt in the situation which is is it when you got the “o huh” response what you just experienced was a microaggression.
This is not to say the people weren't accommodating and they weren't inclusive but little stabs like that add up to make a person feel unwelcome even when all the other signs point to an “inclusive environment.”
As to the issue at hand I'm also struggling with getting a store who did a little bit of Flesh and Blood last year whose community died out back up and running on it.
And there's definitely three or four of us that fit the weekend warrior description you listed out but then there's also a couple of folks that are the more enfranchised players who are willing to make the track out to the shop. The way I'm trying to address it is one of our infranchise players has a ToA cube will be drafting from with a $5 Buy in to then try and get some packs out of the stores backlog and prove that there is a community there if they're willing to try again.
All that being said I do think that LSS could absolutely run almost an Armory+ style event for some of the better performing stores where they give some slightly better Armory goodies once a month. I would also be interested to know how something like an Armory+ could be run to help jump start a new store somewhat like a learn to play event but for both in franchise and casual players.
Anyway I know this is a long ramble I really appreciate the talking about it because it's something I've been struggling with a lot.
Hearing Steven´s "predicament" as a weekend warrior i feel the same way in our local Fab community in Germany. Many of us are of 30+ going to work and have to provide for their family. So we can´t get as much FAB-Event running like our local MTG or YGO Community. Back at the topic at hand how we can get the weekend warrior and Normies engage as well in Flesh and Blood- Premium Event? I think LSS need to expanse their Portfolio having other Games and Merchandising focusing around the World of Rathe and make The Pro-Event into something like a Fair an "Everfest" For family young and old to enjoy. Like the Blizzcon or the League of Legends, Pokemon where all people are engaged even if they don´t sit on the Pro stage cheering for their team or engage in other Side Events-Game.
Thanks for having this conversation! Lots of things mentioned here that I have been thinking about, so this is probably gonna be a long comment.
I also have been trying to figure out how to get community events with large numbers. We have a really great community out here in Utah as well, I would love to see us have some more casual style large events focusing on Blitz Pre-Con, Clash, or Commoner type formats that are relatively new player friendly, but have’t been able to figure out a formula in my head to get people to come.
As someone who struggles a lot to initiate interactions with other humans, gaming for me is a structured environment where I am forced/expected to interact with others. This means that gaming for me is a very exciting thing as it helps to fill my social meter and has allowed me to become a member of a great loving community outside of just my church. Because of this I always want events to be as welcoming of all people as possible!
Being a social gamer, I never would have thought I’d travel with people for gaming and here I am having done it more than once now. Also kid me playing MTG would have never have thought I’d get to play in a pro tour!
Speaking of that this last year has seen me grow to become one of the more consistent toppers for PQ’s and RTN’s in Utah. This has unlocked a drive for me to win and be a “teeth kicker”, especially after winning back to back PQ’s on a weekend to qualify for LA.
I was not able to spend much time preparing for the PT, since I am a husband, teacher, runner, and active participant at church. Because of this I did some reflection and and decided to go in with the mindset that there is a chance for me to win, but since there is a mix of skill and luck needed to even just top 8, I tried to have tiered goals.
So for PT LA my bottom line goal was to play great games and try to have fun with my opponent. Next goal was to make day 2, goal after that was to cash out, then beyond that was get a pti. Basically a ladder of successive goals that ends with winning the event.
I found that this mentality helped me to remember that my purpose for playing flesh and blood is to enjoy the game and interact with people. This purpose helped me to not get too upset at my losses. This made the pro tour a great experience for me, most of my opponents were very fun to play against, even though we were all being serious and trying to win still.
So ultimately I think anyone who wants to play in an RTN or PQ should get to, they are open entry events for a reason. I also hope that even the sweaty try hards are willing to relax a bit and remember that the purpose of gaming is the experience we have with the people we play them with. To take it as only about winning will leave you emotionally drained and deep feeling of dissatisfaction when you inevitably find yourself in a bit of a losing streak.
loved this so much. Steven, I have always enjoyed our games over the years regardless of me usually playing the teeth-kicker role. I hope to see you at an upcoming prerelease or Calling: Portland!
Wish we had more skirmish not just 1 in the year. They are my favorite fun events
That’s my dog! Miss you guys.
First off, this was a wonderful conversation that thoughtfully surmised the challenges associated with being a FaB Dad. Steve, I commend your willingness to share your story and your perspective. Andrew, once again, thank you for possessing the will to avoid FaB content conformity (an actual super best deck unbeatable video). As a side note, I loved the experiment and satirization associated with that aforementioned vid.
Without even realizing, I had taken a soft step away from FaB; skipped the last 3 sets (up until a week ago where I played sealed with a close friend). There was no game that could or would replace FaB, but my engagement was at an all time low. I think gaming is a very personal experience - some desire the competition, while others enjoy the social aspects associated with an awesome community. I prefer jamming games with a very close friend over a kitchen table (as most of my weekends are joyously monopolized by my little guy’s extracurriculars). I need to genuinely enjoy, and love hanging out with the person that I am playing a game with. I have gone to an event, where I have done well, but have regretted my time spent because I did not enjoy the company enough to be away from my family. As I previously stated, these are personal experiences and do not / should not reflect someone else’s FaB consumption (but this is my reality).
Steve, you remind me of myself - I love this game, but would have hated your silent draft experience (perfectly understand why it had to be silent). When looking at LSS’ stellar track record, I think their development of PVE will open the doors to casual, yet challenging gaming. I envision prize support with some form of mechanic (maybe fastest completion of scenario / hero) that encourages competition against another team without having to actually play against a “teeth kicker”.
As my parting point for those that are ultra competitive and ask, “oh why did you come?” - be careful what you wish for. Competition is relative and the elimination of the “casual” from these main events may mean that you will now fill this void and become the “casual”. There will always be someone that possesses more skill, or has more time… So please be kind to all.
"... I have gone to an event, where I have done well, but have regretted my time spent because I did not enjoy the company enough to be away from my family." Yep, felt the same way myself quite a few times. Not FaB yet, since I haven't spent a whole day away from family playing FaB, but gaming in general has had me feeling this way.
Hi there, I just watched this video and had some comments to express. 1) for events that are more friendly to casual players have small 8 person sideboard events for people in the same elo or xp bracket. That way you are playing people with similar experience and skill. That way the more competative players are grouped together and the less competative players are in a separate group. 2) using limited as an example your pool will go for 3 rounds with just your pool. Then new pool and new event. Giving the experience of playing others but not diving in with the sharks. 3) continue this with smaller pools for cc and or blitz with brackets for casual players “your elo has to be below X to be in this pool.”
I had an interesting skirmish season 9 experience. I was playing Azalea in blitz because I know how she plays. I could not figure out other decks well enough as I am a casual player. I play 3 to 4 games every week at an armoury rotating between blitz, cc, and draft. My first game was versus Zen. I expected to loose and ended up winning a close game. Then I got crushed by Rhinar, Bolton, Bravo and Victor. The zen player ended up going 4-1 and made top 8 in a 32 player pool.
I am getting frustrated because I keep playing against players that are much more competitive and I just am not learning much from loosing game after game. I need more instruction but am not asking the right question or just missing something that is blocking me from being a better player. I wish I could be average and have a win loss around 50/50 over the month.
And I could play 5 armouries a week if I wanted. But single parent job and other duties mean I get to one usually.
Looking forward to hearing more along this concept. Thanks for the videos and “Go Commando!”
This is an excellent video and I hope LSS / JW watches it because this is a real problem. I totally sympathise and empathise with this chap, I too am older (50) have 3 kids and a busy life. I’m never gonna win a top event but I go to them in the attempt at bettering my skills. I also have profound learning disabilities so, whilst not being stupid by any means, card games are tough for me. Should I feel excluded? I’ve overheard shitty comments about me and my play, imagine how that feels. My game development takes time. Lots of it. I’ve managed to get a RTN top 8 and top 4. Why shouldn’t I be there?
Thank you both for this.
I definitely have a couple comments on this as a FaB dad and doing purely casual now.
1. LSS should move towards packs for armories like Pokemon does for their Play Series. They've gone that direction with Judge packs, but you just need a pack 1-3 cards with the percentage of pulling something crazy even if you don't do well.
2. As the head of the Clash Committee (fan format) I've been really pushing clash to fill in that role of just playing FaB as a casual. The online Clash league is literally play when you can in the span of several weeks instead of you have to play this matchup this week or else.
A Cracked Bauble kinda looks like a pistachio nut.
I really appreciate Steven being honest and sharing perspective. I imagine many many players can relate. Every player should have some place in the FaB community, much like the greater society at large.
I'm totally picking up what Steven is putting down, I also feel like there is a gap between casual and competitive play that could use some love from store event organizers and LLS. I feel like the social play kit should be expanded with more rewards (not necessarily exclusive ones) and more distribution, and that new, semi-casual formats should be introduced, like chaos draft, team battles, etc. Social play kits are kind of wasted on UPF which needs a complete overhaul, but that's a different conversation. I went to only two of one of my locals UPF nights, and still walked away with the CF Melody, her songs, and mat at the end of the season.
It's not all on LLS though, if the event organizer at a locals has the time and drive, they can come up with fun new ways to play. David, one of the owners at my current favorite locals (Unison Game Cafe, great coffee) will create leagues for certain games, where everyone starts out with a precon, and then can buy up to two packs a week (depending on how many games they play against unique opponents) to modify their deck with. On top of that, he adds a winners/losers wheel that is rolled for every match that allows players to go and select a card to add to their deck of the rolled rarity. The Sorcery league was extremely fun, the variance provided that pre-release hype, but the consistent deckbuilding and teching provided that back and forth conversation between rounds that you get from more competitive events. Add to that the variance and the fact you could pickup games at any time during the week encouraging the casual smack talking vibe, and it was a slam dunk. David is supposed to be putting together a FaB league at some point, (maybe with the release of MST) and I'm so stoked.
I agree there is more trust in an LSS OP event - that it will be properly run & I'll get lots of games for my limited time away from other commitments
I really enjoyed this one. I'm not Dad but I feel I'm in a similar situation in regards to time.
Disappointing to hear the experience he had. It's super easy to be accepting... Hopefully it's not a continuing trend. But these talks are good to have.
What a great discussion. Just want to say, you always belong, I understand not always feeling that way though.
This topic definitely syncs with me. As a dad, I am enjoying my "once-a-month" games of FaB at my LGS. And I haven't even considered going to a larger event than an Armory, but this video is making me reconsider. I will try a pre-release in May and see how it goes.
fancy seeing you here 😄
I'm fairly new to the game but, what is the card that is the art for the background in the beginning of the video
Fractal replication
Wish we had more skirmish not just 1 in the year. They are my favorite fun events
Skirmish events are the best!
Go Commando!
Much love to you Steven, and thank you for sharing your story. I hope everyone in the FaB community can give this a listen at least a couple times to let your story sink in. I'm not a dad, but your story and how you feel about being a player in the FaB community is super relatable.