PONTIAC RAM AIR 400 VS CHEVY LT-1 350? WHICH GM MUSCLE MOTOR WAS REALLY THE TOP SMALL BLOCK?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- HOW MUCH POWER DID A PONTIAC RAM AIR 400 MAKE? HOW MUCH POWER DID THE 1970 LT-1 350 REALLY MAKE? IS A RAM AIR 400 PONTIAC MORE POWERFUL THAN A CHEVY 350? IS THERE A REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT? HOW MUCH EXTRA HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE DOES INCREASED DISPLACEMENT ADD? WOULD A RAM AIR FIREBIRD OR GTO BEAT AN LT-1 CAMARO OR CORVETTE? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED A RAM AIR 400 PONTIAC TO A 1970- LT-1 350. ALSO COMPARED A DZ302 VS THE LT-1 350. CHECK OUT THE DIFFERENCE IN TORQUE OFFERED BY ADDITIONAL DISPLACEMENT. BIGGER REALLY IS BETTER!
- Авто та транспорт
I would love to see more Pontiac engines on the channel. Especially some large cid strokers with aftermarket heads and cams.
Pontiac aftermarket aluminum heads are back ordered.
@@hydroy1 no they are not. On stock at Summit and Butler and.....
@@hydroy1 depends on what you buy.
Pontiac engines are great for boats.
With that raised intake manifold it's easy to put a chain through it and make an excellent anchor.
@@daryllect6659😂😂 I’m a Pontiac guy myself, and that was pretty good.
Would love to see a 400 small block Chevy and Pontiac with all of the exact specs, cams, intake, etc..good video. Both are excellent motors.
That power curve on the Pontiac has standard 068 cam written all over it. But that could be considered a Ram Air III cam. In 1969 the 4 speed Ram Air III engines used the slightly bigger 744 camshaft, and automatic Ram Air III cars got the 068. In 1970 all Ram Air III cars got the 068 camshaft. Also, the Q-jet and factory intake will support more power than this engine is making. A slightly bigger camshaft with a tighter LSA to bump midrange torque will really wake that 400 up.
The 068 cam is good but definitely makes this motor not comparable to the ram air motors that came with the 744 like you said. It’s very mild with only .409 inches of lift.
All auto trans RA3 cars got the 068 only early 69” manual trans cars got 744 cam, also early 69” RA3 came with #48 heads that had an even smaller chamber than the 72cc #12 it was around 66-68cc ive been told
agreed...if you don't know what cam you have, it's the RAIII. If you don't know how you'll keep it from stalling out or creeping at a stoplight, you have the RAIV :)
@@albertgaspar627 They do tend to be lumpy. Work real good with Rhoads Lifters to tame them at idle.
@@apachebill True, I have Crane's version on a .490/260 split Engle cam in an Olds 455. I can pull in third gear from a dead stop with captive discharge ignition, Q jet primaries and a 3:1 rear gear. More people should try 'em.
I ran a blueprinted Ram Air II 400 and even with the NHRA minimum chamber, deck height and 0.030" over pistons from Pontiac, with the minimum allowed head gasket thickness, the measured compression ratio was 9.98:1, so factory 400's likely had 9.5:1 if they were lucky. The 69 Ram Air III had an advertised 10.75:1 compression, while the 1970 Ram Air III had an advertised 10.5:1 compression. In 1969 the 400 HO and the 400 Ram Air (I) were merged into the Ram Air III. Some had 4 bolt mains, some had 2 bolt mains. The engine was called the Ram Air III in the 69 GTO and was called the 400 HO in the 69 Firebird. The 69 Firebird had to have the dealer install the hood-mounted air box and they arrived at the dealer with no instructions. The early manual transmission (3 speed and 4 speed) GTO Ram Air III engines got the 744 Ram Air (I) camshaft with 224 degrees (duration 0.050") duration. The valve spring were, "supposed" to be heavier than the 1968 HO springs, but with the same standard installed height. The 68 Ram Air (I) got taller springs. The automatic 69 RA III GTO's got the 068 camshaft with 212 degrees (at 0.050") duration. The 69 Firebird 400 HO (RA III) was supposed to have different engine codes and the manuals were supposed to have the 068 HO cam, while the automatics were supposed to have the smaller 067 cam (200 degrees duration at 0.050"), with standard service valve springs. It appears that most, if not all, 1969 Firebird 400's had GTO engine codes. All late 69 RA III GTO's got the 068 cam, manual and automatics. There were supposed to be three different standard height valve springs in 69, not counting the RA IV. In the late 1970's, I ordered the 3 springs, standard service, 428 HO and RA III from Pontiac. I compared them on a spring tester and they all 3 tested the same. The HO spring was supposed to have a heavier than standard inner spring, with a standard outer spring. The RA III was supposed to have a very heavy spring, but standard height, unlike the 68 RA I springs, which were both heavier and taller. The 67 and 68 RA heads had their spring seats cut 0.130" deeper and the RA I springs were supposed to be installed 0.120" taller than standard or HO springs. The 69 and later heads can't handle a 0.130" additional cut to the spring seats. The 66 1/2 and early 67 RA I single springs were made of a defective steel and replaced with standard dual springs by the dealers, per a service bulletin. The 041 RA IV cam was first used in the 68 1/2 RA II 400, with 1.5:1 rocker arms and then with 1.65:1 rocker arms in the RA IV. The Pontiac 1.5:1 rockers are actually closer to 1.45:1, but the Pontiac RA IV 1.65:1 rocker were true 1.65:1 rockers.
thnx Jim-great info
THE Pontiac guru right here!
I had the RA II in a '68 Fbird, but ran a Comp Cams cam. With a zero deck, .039 gasket, and some JR headers. Same heads are now in my '65. Entertaining video, but they are always like this when they try to compare Chevy and Pontiac with a guy that doesn't know how to make the Pontiac run. The 041 cam is very obviously different than a 068, or even 744. You need a 4:11 and then maybe a 4speed too with the 041 cam. The Pontiac block doesn't have canted valves, so it comparable to other small blocks. The '68 RA II Firebird is one on the quickest pure stock cars, look it up (11 sec). Similar but smaller intake ports than the 4. 343 HP here is a joke. Even my 350 Pontiac makes 360 hp.
That torque curve on the 400 looks like an 068 cam, the basic 4 barrel cam, roughly the size of the Summit 2801. The RA III is a 224/228 cam, it makes more torque than that all the way through and its roughly the same as the Summit 2802. If it doesn't make 435ftlbs there is something wrong, especially with the small chamber heads and resulting compression. The RA IV is a 231/242 cam, it picks up a bit of power over 4500. It came with round port exhaust and 1.65 rockers that required 5/16 pushrods. The RA II, 455 HO, and 455 SD had similar heads with round exhaust ports, the HO and SD are essentially large chamber RA IV heads.
The intake is going to do pretty much the same as all the aluminum dual planes in the aftermarket, usually better. You found that the last time you ran that one.
Pontiacs are different than chevys in where they make their power and why. Its more than just displacement, its runner length, port volume, and more importantly port velocity. The Pontiac has a longer runner that has more velocity than the chevy, so they make all their power below 5500rpm. Even going to a larger cam with the iron heads its not going to want to rev more than 6000 for the 455, and roughly 6200 for the 400. Its more than just airflow, its how well they fill the cylinders and at what RPM range.
Since the Pontiac makes so much more bottom end, they don't need much gear or stall speed, single plane intakes slow them down until you change the airflow by a lot. 4.10 and deeper gears slow them down, unless you change the airflow a lot and spin the snot out of them like the sbc. Most of us run no more than a 3.55 gear, some guys think the 3.73 works good, but it runs the same as the 3.42, just spins the engine more going down the road... and a 455 will lose a few mph in the quarter with a 3.73 gear.
I've tested the gear thing myself, and found exactly what Jim and Floyd Hand found. The stock stuff works pretty good for lots of things.
When mine make 500hp, they are making it right around 5000 to 5500rpm, not at 6500 or 7000 like a chevy. They are still making ludicrous torque at 3000. My 700hp@6100 467 was making more than 650flbs at 3000. Flat torque curve even with big heads, big solid roller, and a Victor/1050 intake/carb.
Thats why they like more advance and will go faster, provided the fuel isn't going to ping/knock. Advance helps most below 4500rpm, we usually set up our distributors to have all the advance in before 3000rpm. Really fast curves, and the engines grunt like crazy. How much it wants varies, but with a slow burning race gas they will want more. A lot more.
Retarding the timing above 5000 helps top end, and all of that is why other engines don't like more timing, but Pontiac does. The others are not making torque down low like a Pontiac, Buick, or Olds.. especially 455s.
Big block, small block whatever. I don't care, Pontiac heads bolt to all of them. Same as Olds, but Olds has tall and short deck, Letter and Number heads respectively. Nearly everything in a Pontiac engine interchanges with every size and year, as long as you match the year breaks for intake flange angles, valve angles, and heat cross over sizes. The Pontiac is unique in that. 267ci to 540ci in the same dimensions and bore spacing. The factory blocks can accept a 4.5" crank that makes a 501ci engine with a 4.21" bore.
Everywhere a 301 will fit, a 455 will fit. Is it big or small? Is an FE a big block? I think so. Is a LIMA? Yes definitely. Which is bigger? The LIMA of course. Is the 351W/C a big block because it has a different deck height than a 260-302 but the same bore spacing? Not to me.
Big and small is a chevy reference, and like most things Pontiac, chevy references do not matter. Sure its an air pump, but its an air pump designed to run best in a very different RPM range. Making a Pontiac rev takes a lot, getting them to make lots more torque is easier and thats what most of us do with them. Instead of spinning it tighter we feed it more airflow and that increases torque everywhere between idle and 5000rpm. Over 310cfm and you can start making more power above 5500, like 6500 to 7000, but its still going to make lots of torque on the bottom.
Measure the intake port length from the throttle blades to the bottom of the cylinder on a Pontiac and a chevy, then the cross section for the entire length, and you will see why the Pontiac makes most of its power under 5000rpm.
Damn... I write too much.
I FIND IT ODD THAT YOU WOULD THINK YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN THE EFFECT OF RUNNER LENGTH TO ME.
Really enjoyed mulling over your Pontiac knowledge. I have a 69 GTO and I want to build it's 400. I have Jim Hands book. It has been years since I picked it up, but it sounds like you can attest to how much solid information he has got in there. Would love to hear more about your build!
@@richardholdener1727 not to you... other people read comments too Richard. :) Most of what I write is for everyone reading the comments rather than the content creator, particularly when it comes to you... because you pretty much know all of this.
@@aballin4143 You'll have to be more specific about 'which' build you want to know about. I have low buck, re-ring and bearing Uncle Tony type stuff, all the way to completely aftermarket engines built to handle 20psi easily. Yeah... thats a humble brag, I really like Pontiac engines. I like running them on ethanol too, thats been my thing for the last 17 years.
I do mostly Pontiac, but also some LS truck engines.. and Richard has GREAT info on those truck engines. I take his word for it when it comes to the modern LS, and knowing what kind of torque curve various combinations make is priceless information. This channel is one of my favorites for exactly that.
I should be having more content over the winter, because I have to finish the 72 Cutlass for a friend, probably get the 71 Mustang done enough to move around the yard and sleep outside, then the 76 C10 thats getting a 6.0/4L80 swap, along with lots of rust repair... before I start on the 'not even a good parts car' 1969 GTO.
Jim Hand likes the 'tractor' engines (low RPM), and I do too because they are fun, can be cheap to build, and you don't need lots of gear, stall, etc.
Maybe Richard didn't....but I enjoyed the write up..
Miss my 68 gto
Yeah in a standard 400 when you ran the RAIV cam it was very rough idle. Power didn't come on until later in the power band, that test 400 cam was a standard Pontiac cam of some kind and not RAIV. Heck even in a D port 455, the RAIV cam was a little soft off idle and needed more rpm to feel the grunt. Check out those specs they were hot!
INT/EXH @.050 231/240
Cam Lift .313/.313
Valve Lift @ 1.5 rockers .470/.470 or .516/.516 lift with RAIV 1.65 rockers
Center Line CL 112/115
I would like to see the same LT 350 with same cam just with vortec head swap!
Richard, how about a 400 cube shootout: 400 Poncho vs. 400 SBC vs. 402 BBC vs. 400 Olds vs. 400 Buick vs. 400 Mopar vs. 401 AMC vs. 400 Ford small block?
The RA IV was more than a cam swap. It included much better round port heads, free flowing exhaust manifolds, and a 2 piece aluminum intake with a separate iron exhaust crossover. The RA III was little more than a 400 4bbl with fresh air induction and only a slightly bigger cam. Herb Adams raced a '64 GTO and kicked butt in Trans Am racing for years in the Gray Ghost which ran a 389 block, and later a 455 block destroked to 303 cu. in. He only lives a few miles from me and is building a clone to that car now but basing it off of a 301 Pontiac which he says is making more power than the old 303 did. He's still an impressive guy after all these years.
I don't drive that fast, and I don't like to Rev an engine too high. That's why I've always wanted a big block 454 or 455. Something to just rip away from a red light or roast the tires on demand. I'm not a racer. I just like to have fun and play around
I have a '69 Z28, a '70 Z28 and '70 TA. All I can say is yep. You summed up the differences perfectly. The '69 is by far the most fun to rip through the Texas hill country. But Poncho's bottom end torque makes it easier to drive and will smoke the tires with the slightest tap of the throttle.
In 1969 the Ram Air 3 & 4 had completely different heads. The 4 had round exhaust ports.
Based on the curve, I'd say it is a ram air III. Having driven a ram air IV car several times, you'd be able to hear it in my opinion... the IV sounds pretty rowdy for a "factory" grind.
100% agree. When you hear a RA IV idle you don't wonder if it's a RA III.
I agree with Keith Stoehr, this 400 is likely to have the 068 camshaft. The power curve points strongly in that direction. The 744 and 041 cams required higher rpm for torque numbers to develop.
A Pontiac is just a Pontiac. Not a big block or small block
Fact
Enjoy your videos. The power curve of the 400 looks like it could be an 068 cam, which is the RAIII. The basic 350hp 69 400, which those 62 heads are, would have originally had the 067 camshaft, slightly tamer than the RAIII. Not sure how much difference you'd see on the dyno however, everything else being equal.
I own a 69Z as well as a 70 RAIII Formula and enjoy driving both on a regular basis. For fun I race the Formula as a pure stocker
ua-cam.com/video/er1z7PpqsnY/v-deo.html
Shifting at 5200, right about where you saw peak HP is where I find best times, It does about what you would expect at this power level. Not a big HP maker but the torque does a nice job carrying the car down track. Quite a bit heavier than the 69 Z though. The firebird without driver is 3690 and my RS Z scales 3420.
Years ago when the cars could still be found in every alley, I knew a guy that done a cam and intake change and that 400 car was running high 12s without any problem. Those old Pontiacs were a beast.
This video just assured me with your 2bl vs 4bl #.. that I should keep bugging you about single guad vs dual guad numbers. Lol.. love the channel Richard.
You are absolutely right about the DZ and gearing. Growing up my brother had a '69 Z with some mild mods but 4.88's in the rear. WOW is all I can say. Tires back then were nothing like today's tires. I think it had some G60-15 Mickey Thompson's and if you dropped the clutch at any RPM at all it would smoke them. But, if you were smart off the line that thing was up to the task against just about anything we ran up against. I had a highly modified 383 Roadrunner and I wouldn't have stood a chance in the 1/8th mile against him. My 3.23's were my holdback but it would have been an interesting 1/4 mile I think. Ah the good old days. 😁
I had a '68 Camaro and when new with the 295 hp 350 4 sp., raced more than a dozen Z28's and smoked every last one of them. By a lot. They were always surprised, but this combo also whipped GTO's, 442's and most muscle cars.
id love to see you test the 140 off road cam in a dz302. seems like everyone either loves or hates that cam on the camaro forums.
Just looked up the RA4 cam. 231/240@50. .313 lobe. .516 at the valve with the 1.65 rockers.
This is an OK comparison. Looks like a mild Pontiac 400 build compared to a hopped up SBC with the results I would expect. The Pontiac engines are torque monsters while the Chevys seem to make decent high RPM power. Interesting would have been if the engines had the same cam profile and both were running electric water pumps.
Still a good comparison.
OEM cams I’d really like to see the Pontiac with the RA4 cam so it’s equal with the 302, 350 max effort factory cams.
Pontiac blocks as I understand it we're called a "mid block". Meaning everything from the smallest displacement all the way to 455CI were externally dimensionally identical. This is from my machining days. The machinist I learned under was a massive Buick guy but hey, what can you do? Lol. Great vid Rich. Thank you.
The answer to all Pontiacs. Aluminum top end and forged stroker bottom end. More flow and displacement. If you want more fun, boost.
If only Chevrolet had built a 400 SBC like the LT1. It would have been a big block killer.
yep would have been nice to see that.
Ive seen comparisons
between 402 bbc & a 400 sbc. The big block was superior.
@@9Apilot BBC have bigger valves than 400SB & with everything else equal will always make more power.
Chevy actually had plans for a LT1 type 400 SBC for the '71 Z28, but then the Clean Air act of 1970 hit, Ed Cole dropped compression to 9:1 max for GM, and all the engineers got put on emissions development instead of performance development. Besides, De Lorean became Chevy General Manager in mid-late '69 and did just about anything he could to hold Chevy back. The 1970 Camaro was supposed to get the LS6 454 and the Corvette was supposed to get the LS7 454, the LT2 454, the LJ1 454, and the LJ2 454. De Lorean killed them all. Karma caught up with him later though.
Ok you test high end SBC vs an avg 400 Pontiac where is the Ram Air IV? Ram Air head and a Unknown cam really ? The Round port 722 Ram Air IV heads with the 041 cam , 1.65 rockers. And Aluminum Intake. Nothing but click bait saying you have a RA IV and you dont even have a RA III.
I feel that it's worth mentioning the Pontiac was run with a belt driven water pump. That was probably worth a couple HP which would have closed the gap on the SBC
and....stock rockers not rollers, and that 068 cam. A simple Bobcat kit or similar would have woken this engine up some. Thinner head gaskets, blocked heat riser cross-over, quicker rate distributor springs, cooler plugs, and I now doubt that Qjet was 800 cfm. Heck, the 350 used a holley with aftermarket metering block, yes, and that water pump, probably takes 20 hp at 5500 rpm to turn.
@@ihavea65 As unbelievable as it sounds, the earlier Q-Jets flowed I think about 750 CFM. In the 70s flow was increased to 800 CFM even in the malaise era.
Thanks for the info. Now I know why my my dad wanted to replace the 350 in our 1969 Tempest with a 400 when we started towing an rv trailer! 😁
I’d be interested to see how much air flows between the heads of the Pontiac compared to a chev of the same displacement
I would love to see a comparison between the basic 400/389 vs the Mopar 383, 335hp Chevrolet 396 325hp, and the Ford FE 390 335hp engines. Basically the standard muscle car engine of the late 60s .
Those numbers are GROSS DYNO numbers. Installed in the car the 383 was not 335 but more like 275 hp NET. The 296 and 390 were way below 300 net.
@@BuzzLOLOL NOPE. You might get 360 gross on the dyno with bare engine but that would be about 300 net....no way 365 net..that would be more than a 426 Hemi and a small tune like that wouldn't do it.....
@@BuzzLOLOL I dont think you understand what GROSS and NET horsepower is
In the Pontiac could have a Ram air III Cam. I think the Ram Air IV cam build more Power in the entire RPM Range.
Now I understand why my 350 4bbl 6X4 swapped 1973 Laguna S3 with 4.10 posi loved to go off the road when the vac secondaries came in.
Was really impressive how that Pontiac 350 could bring the rear end around on that 4000# car. Parked it after it went off the road 3 times. Probably needed better tires, and a driver mod, lol......
After looking up the info on RA engines, the only one ever built with #62 heads was a '69 'bird, block code YW. It had the 067 cam; it was an auto trans A/C engine. With a decent cam, around 220 @ .050", that engine should make 400 hp, or really close to it.
#62 heads are Ram Air III heads and are D port heads. #722 heads are 1969 Ram Air IV heads and are round port heads. #614 heads are 1970 Ram Air IV heads. Hey could you do a test with different water temperatures and how they affect horsepower. Like 100 degree water temp. all the way up to 210? I always wondered and it would be an easy test for you. I look forward to your videos every day. You are the engine dyno God!! Nobody dynos as many and different engines as you do. Keep up the great work.
62 heads are big car 400 4 barrel heads from 68-69. RAIII heads in 1069 are 48 and 1970 RAIII are 12. All d ports, the 62 heads had a slightly larger combustion chamber than the 48 or 12 RAIII heads.
Appreciate your time and effort on these videos! Definitely more Pontiac's please. Or any of the other "other guys" :)
Small Block 302 and 350 Chevy tests were interesting Richard Holdener. 350 Chevy is Superior over the DZ302. We Found that out in 1990s Street Racing here in Illinois. DZ302 Got Smoked by a friends 1970-1/2 Z28 Camaro LT1. Shawn was 7 car lengths ahead at the 1320 Line.
On all the Ram Air IV engines that were Factory IV, they had an aluminum dual plane intake with a Spyder symbol cast into them. At least every one that I saw anyway. They were a high rise manifold that flowed much better than their cast iron counterparts.
What a cool inspiration to do an old school 350
The big question: why does the LS make so much more power? Answer: cylinder head cfm. 300+ vs 200 for the vintage motors. Port those babies, or use aftermarket heads, and 500hp is within reach.
Don't forget the 303 301 and 260 Pontiacs ....those are the small blocks
Not sure about calling a Pontiac motor a small block, but they use the same size valve cover gasket as a small block chevy with a different bolt pattern.
i assure you that the pontiac has neither a ra3 or 4 cam..looks like 068 or 067, or one of the summit style grinds..put me in the no smallblock pontiac crowd..do more pontiac stuff..love the channel🐰
In general, two engines limited by head flow and with the same cam but different displacement will produce very similar peak power. The larger displacement engine will do so at lower rpm, approximating the same cfm of air usage. The smaller will get that horsepower number at an additional rpm proportional to the displacement difference (ie, same cfm). The torque curves will be a whole different story as illustrated in these three examples. This phenomenon does NOT follow when the engine has excess head flow capacity-then the bigger engine makes more torque AND more horsepower with the same cam. Of course none of these cases are optimized, but OEMs realize the average customer seldom sees anything past the meat of the torque curve, so optimized power is wasted. Interesting that the Pontiac was so limited that it fell short in horsepower to the 350 LT-1, and the 302, with slightly more cam, did the best in peak power. No question that the Pontiac would be the most responsive on the street.
Thanks for the Pontiac coverage. I do agree with some comments here that a Ram Air 3 should make more power than your results. I helped a neighbor that had Ram Air 3 rebuilt to all-stock specs. Q-jet, iron intake, etc. all stock. (Torque plate honing and additional 6 cubes probably gave it extra 15 hp over factory 400). It dynod 385 hp and 450-455 torque with stock ram air exhaust manifolds. Pontiac listed this engine as 366 hp and 445 torque which looks exactly on the money based on this rebuild. He did a couple dyno runs with hedman 4 tube headers and they added 20 to both hp and torque.
Pontiac engines are great for boats.
With that raised intake manifold it's easy to put a chain through it and make an excellent anchor.
I've been killing Pontiac's for 3 decades, Pontiac stand for Paycheck On Notice To Intercept Automotive Costs. They are child's play to work on, and cross platform parts tend to work for spares. You just have to be willing to put in the wrench time. Most of the Pontiac's I've had it's the trans locking the engine up, or the body rotting so bad the car isn't worth repairing anymore. I wish I didn't live in the North of USA, so many rotted cars, so few gems. I had a GTP Grand Prix, that car was fun back in the day one of the few cars I got off a dealer lot.
Pontiac is considered a medium block by most people.
1. Unless you know what you're looking at with a Pontiac you wouldn't know if it was a 326 or a 455. Block dimensions externally are about all the same.
2. Heads don't flow much.
3. The cam wasn't a RA IV nor was it probably even a RAIII. Could have been a aftermarket cam.
I would say this is a classic display of how airflow effects different displacements. While I'm unsure what the complete intake tract flow was for each combo, I'm sure that you would find that they are "somewhat similar" (using very loosely) in terms of flow. The airflow available (not to mention velocity) was more suited for a smaller displacement 302 than it was for any of the other combinations (But I guess that also depends on how you want your combo to work). And yes, the cam can help manipulate how much airflow the engine sees as well.
Great stuff
Pontiac didn't have a big or small block from 326 to 455 and I believe the 301 was a shorter deck height but still the same block might be wrong with the 301
It’s so crazy how far technology has come we have 5.3 making this kind of power these were great
Standard rocker arm ratio in a Pontiac is 1:5. Ram Air IV rocker arms have a ration of 1:65. If you want some cheap horsepower for your Pontiac change the rocker arms. Lift will go from around.410 to around.450. You WILL notice the difference!🤗 Especially if you run two four barrels!
Pontiac didn't have big block and small block engines. They were the same block from the old 287 cube to the 455's. Just different combinations of bore and stroke were used for all Pontiac engines. They were working some engineering miracles in order to develop all those iconic high performance engines: 326 H.O., 350 H.O. , the 389's, all the different 400's, 428, and 455's. Only exception was the Super Duty 455, it was a completely different casting. Thanks for another great video my friend, Semper Fidelis!
For me, a 455 will always be considered a Big Block
@@richardholdener1727 Really appreciate your videos Richard! Just as chrisnizer said, Pontiac really only had 1 block. The engineers there only referred to them as the pontiac engine. Difference-wise - they were configured (kind of) in 3 ways, including a 3" main journal size or 3.25" main journal size and a shorter deck version. The 421, 428 and 455 all shared the 3.25" main journal size, but externally all of those blocks shared the external dimensions with the 3" main journal 400, 389, 350, 326 and earlier smaller displacement engines. All pontiac heads can physically bolt on to any of the blocks, but there are gasket differences and other things which will make it difficult to get them to run. If you stay within year ranges of 68-77 you can put any head on any block. Some might have crazy high compression (69 350 HO heads on a 455), or crazy low compression (ie. late 455 heads on a 68 350) but they will bolt on and you can probably get it to run. After market blocks for Pontiacs share the same basic external dimensions, but can be configured with the small journal crank and go well over 500 cubic inches. This Pontiac engine was actually configured like the base 350 hp GTO engine with the very mild 066 or 067 cam, not the 068 or 744 cam used in the RA III (068 - auto, 744 - manual) A better Pontiac to compare to the '70 LT1 would be a true RA IV 400 engine with the round port heads and RA IV camshaft, aluminum factory RA IV intake, etc.
Didn't the Ram Air V have a similar casting to the SD455?
@@user-gq4hz7rh6k No Is the simple answer. The 455 SD block was unique, and was (while still a true Pontiac through and through) a heavier casting with a reinforced lifter valley and cast in dry sump provisions. A very limited number were cast, starting in 1972 (for 1973 production) and probably ending in early 1974, when it became obvious emission rules and gas prices would reduce sales.
@@user-gq4hz7rh6k The cylinder heads were completely different. Ram Air-V heads were modeled on the Ford Tunnel-Port. They had the same round intake ports with the pushrods in the middle. Super Duty 455 heads had rectangular ports that routed around the pushrods. The blocks both had reinforced lifter galley, and beefier mains. The Super Duty 455 had a dry sump oil system provision cast right into the block. I'm sure there were some other differences. Ram Air-V engines never went into full scale production. The project was cancelled in 1969 before that could happen. Whatever parts were made were sold through parts departments in select dealerships. There was supposed to be a 303 cid version (Trans-Am /SCCA racing), a 400 cid version for production vehicles, and a 428 cid version for drag racing.
You should test a RAV next, I’ve always been curious what they made on the dyno
The real trick would be find a complete RA V! But, I agree. 👍
Hi I believe you have a 350 hp 400 Cid. Should have a YS stamp for Vin code. RA4 is a complete different animal. If I remember correctly 614 round port heads, 4 bolt blocks and aluminum intake.
Pontiac 265 and 287 engines were a 10.24 deck height. The 326, 350, 389, 400, 421,428, and 455 were also a 10.24 deck height. Except for the 301, Pontiac only made one block size.
Fun Fact: The 301 was such a thin cylinder block they used torque plates at the factory to get a round bore.
Well, don't forget the short deck 303 they made for SCCA racing. Same dimensions as the 301.
@@WVXL64 That's true. I was thinking production blocks at the time.
There was a later 265 that shared the deck with the 301 from memory.
@@WVXL64 Try to find one of those. They probably only made about 50 of them.
what about a chevy 400 vs 350 and pontiac 400? would like to see that. I know the 400 was never a performance engine but back in the day some built them using the heads from back then.
Haven't even watched it yet and I'm going poncho. The average torque they made was amazing.
Yes they were a beast my ponton
@@tomrobards7753 I've got 62's on mine only issue with that much comp is you need to make sure you've got a good amount of overlap and how decked they are.
These days their a very much so e85 head lol.
@@hayden6056 I don't even build pump gas Pontiacs anymore, I always put the small chamber heads on them and run E85... or they get a blower.
@@SweatyFatGuy good call! I had a bad batch of pump gas and mines off the road til full rebuild. 205 in 6 cylinders 96 on one and 108 on the last 😂
@@SweatyFatGuy I have been very interested in running E85 and a screw blower on my 65. Hows it run? I know it runs cooler, and the blower makes up for the lower BTU from the alcohol, and the alcohol has a higher ignition requirement and needs lots of advance, right? It would be a challenge, maybe afterwards finding gas (alcohol) stations?
richard must be a lot of older viewers here. As we get older the faster our cars were /or never been beat lol. I have a crate LT1 in my vette 4spd 4.10 gear it is pretty quick if you race enough you will get beat. fortunately I've beaten more than was beat with many a broken part along way multiple half shafts, axle stubs, u joints, transmissions I did my fair share of street racing back in the day Quigley, Scranton Cleve. OH
G'evening Richard ☕☕ 😀 . I would love to see a Buick HO 350 like they used in the Lesabre on the dyno. They're 10.25:1 factory. With flat top pistons, an aluminum Poston s-divider intake manifold, a high pressure high volume oil pump and a comp cams 268H cam they're quite fun and impressive. I ran mine with a Carter 675 AFB with a strip kit in it fed off a fuel rail with the fuel pressure set at 6.75 PSI , anything less than that and she would starve out and die about half throttle. Once I found a pump capable of delivering what she needed courtesy of Blackstone it was a lot of fun 🙃🙃 ..
I think you're right in it being a combination of displacement and displacement. Also the head and intake. If you had cam profiles in the bigger engines to make more top end power would they support it?
The Poncho 400 baby. All the way better.
Also wanted to add that the dyno numbers for the 400 make me think it had dished pistons with lower comp and smaller cam. This is typical when rebuilding to get these engines to run on 91-92 octane unleaded. I owned 1968 GTO right when gas went from 96 leaded ethyl to 92 unleaded (1982) and driven 1969 RA3 on 92 unleaded and they knock like crazy unless you add octane booster. I tried running my GTO on mixture of 90% 92 unleaded and 10% everclear grain alcohol and it didn't knock!
Lets see some built Ponchos!
Considering the numbers of the pontiac, I suspect the cam was the 068. I had a 69 GTO that actually had the 744 ( considered RA III cam but only in 4 speed cars and even then rare). I raced ????? Other GTOS in the day that were "RA III and can say for absolute certain, most RA III engines have/had the 068 cam. It was no competition and virtually everyone I beat took their GTO back to the dealer to find out why their car was so much slower than mine
The cam in the Poncho, if it idled relatively smooth, is the RA3, if it was kinda rough, RA4. Pontiacs were never small blocks or big blocks since the deck heights and bore spacing are the same, just the main sizes differed.
Except 265/301 short decks.
Finally a pontiac
Would love to see the LT-1 run with several stock exhaust manifold options vs long tube headers. I'd especially like to see the stock '70 Corvette LT-1 manifolds vs. the '63 Corvette with the 2 1/2" outlet manifolds. And of course against the long tube headers.
Pontiac did not use big block/small block..They used the "Corporate BOP block 326/350/383/400/428/ 455cid..I owned 3 68 firebirds 326-TH350/350-TH350/ 400-TH400 and owned a 1970 Firebird Formula 400 Ram Air 3 with a "drag race package option". (Don't remember the RPO code) Hurst shifted CR-M21 12b LS Diff, open hood snorkels leading to "closed" air cleaner (fresh air only). Heavier springs and shocks. Wish I still had that one!!
What the heck is a "corporate BOP block"? Buick, Olds, and Pontiac (BOP) all used completely different blocks. Buick, for example, *did* use small and big blocks: 300/340/350 iron small blocks, and 400/430/455 iron big blocks.
“Corp. BOP block” huh? Buick, Olds and Pontiac actually cast their own blocks, in their own foundries. Then machined and assembled their engines their own respective plants. And the Pontiac block designated an “Intermediate block” by the men who designed it shares nothing with Buick and Olds blocks other than 1) Being built under the larger GM umbrella as the others & 2) being a V-8. The abound of strait up wrong info regarding Pontiacs on UA-cam is as staggering as it is frightening. Glad I stared over 40 years ago when the men who made them were still alive to tech me.
There are soooooooo many things wrong with this statement.....
The Pontiac 400 was simply just a Pontiac when it was made. Deck height and bore spacing were the same from 287 to 455.
It retroactively became a big block when Pontiac made the 301 and 265, which had shorter deck height.
Oldsmobile was the same: lower deck height for the small blocks. Weird to think about it, but the 403 was a small block and the 400 was a big block.
IMO, deck height does not determine what is a big block or a small block. Bore spacing is what determines that. Example, is a Ford 351M or Ford 400 a big block because it has taller deck height than the standard SBF? No. Is a tall deck height BBC a Big-Big block? No. There is no small block or big block Pontiac, only a Pontiac V8. Same for Olds even if people like to call their tall deck blocks big blocks. Pontiac, Olds, 392 Chrysler Hemi, and Ford FE all shared around a 4.6" bore spacing, which as far as other engines go, is just about right in the middle between traditional small blocks and big blocks. Should we call them Mid-Blocks?
That's very likely a RAIII cam. HP peak in the 5000 rpm range. It probably had a pretty good vacuum signal at idle.
If it were RAIV, it'd be making power up around, or maybe even slightly past, 6 grand. The HP numbers would've been closer to 370HP, too.
In the actual drag race, if you've got a '70 Camaro vs. a '69 Firebird, the Poncho gives about 100-150 lbs. to the Camaro, and that makes a difference, too.
If the LT-1 is in a '70 Nova, now you're talking about 200-250 lbs., and unless the Nova driver is just flat timid, that's pretty much gonna negate any power advantage the 400 has over the 350.
A real RA3 or 4-400 all day
Richard that’s definitely a cam that’s about the size of an 068 cam
455 HO baby!!........ Did I just say that? "strike that from the record". Pro. 😝
62 heads are a nice set for your test. Big valves, screw in studs, guide plates, 72 cc chambers. I had them on a 455, (back when we had good gas). Sure would've been nice to know what cam you had. Thanx for posting.
Plz do some more videos with the 400 sbc I’m wanting to do a old school build and I have a 400 sbc I’m wanting to know some budget ways to get it to around 500hp that would be awesome if you could get some more videos with different combos with it
Have you ever done the olds 350 rocket?
Pretty cool test! Both could have been way different with different cam's. And both could have used better intakes for sure, but more cube's always equals more torque. But how about the Chevy 400 with a comparable cam and 4bbl???
You had the 62 heads. The 48 should be on the Pontiac.
It was neither the 068 RAIII Camshaft or the 041 RAIV Camshaft you tested in the 1969 Pontiac 400 V8 Richard Holdener but the 067 Camshaft used in Base 400 GTO Non Ram Air and All Full Size Pontiac with the 4-bbl and A/C .
Made good power numbers for such a mild camshaft only about 214 @.050".
#62 Heads are Pontiac V8 Fullsize heads with 10.25:1 static compression ratio.
hard for anyone to know without seeing it-so we can all guess
@@richardholdener1727 Been on the Superflow Water Brake Dyno with mine exceeded 500 Hp in 1997, RAIV Heads Pure bone stock unported. Camshaft a Solid Flat Tappet Full Race by Comp Cams.
Sorry We didn't have You Tube or Fancy Cellphones like today to make instant Vidros and post to share.
1970 RAIV Aluminum Winters intske not modified any.
Quadrajet 800 Cfm , SD455 #704270. Called Ken Krocie for a Jet and Secondary metering rod kit since not stock camshaft, Ken hit it on the money $ !
@@richardholdener1727 Everyone is going Racing in 2023 or we are going to try to all of us.
1 last big bash you should join us Richard Holdener it will be alot of fun !
@@brracing7861 Yep, and HO Racing. Miss those guys. The 1962-1963 421 SD's were well above 500 HP way back...Smokie and Fireball cleaning up the ovals..can't forget about those either.
I would like to see a comparison between a built Chevrolet 402(bb) and a built Pontiac 400(bb).I would also love to see a Chevrolet 396(bb) and a Pontiac 389 (bb) built with similar components (better flowing factory heads, 3×2 factory intakes)(2×4 aluminum intakes) etc. 👍 Thanks!!!
one small point to put out...none of these engines had HEI distributors from the factory
Hi Richard !, ....Really Appreciate all your well done Factory Oem engine Dyno comparison & your Excellent Hp & Torque graphics clearly Show what our Butt dyno saw & Felt !.... Back in the day (1964--1970) we Didn't have Dyno access or cylinder Head flow Data & always Wondered why Pontiac had no Solid Lifter cam ?? .....We didn't Know why or How the Street factory Pontiacs kept up with most chevy Small blocks, but they Did seem to !! .....Pontiacs usually came with Higher (3:23--3:55) axle Gears which Kept the Top speeds High enough for me ! .....Thx much for videos man !!
Only Chevy was allowed to use real high performance parts at GM. And they still usually lost to Pontiac.
Pontiac is just like a SBC except you can buy off the shelf heads for SBC that double the stock Pontiac flow rates, have smaller main journals, stronger blocks and much easier hedder installs. I love Pontiacs, but they are their own breed and most definitely limited by head & aftermarket support. Thanks to Butler Performance & Kauffman Racing!
Pontiac 💪🏼
Just a basic question. Why are the Chevy and Ford , especially, small blocks more narrow and compact than many of the other manufacturers?
They just look great aesthetically.
I had a chevy Lt1 in a 70 chevelle that motor was scary...it ran like a beast...with wheelies...all day long
11.20s...car was scary fast with a four speed...
@Text +① (②⑦⑥) ③①⑧-②②⑤⑤ My Chevelle was a speed shop motor was built right I also had s friend that had the same motor in a box nova that motor was scarier than mine that car back in the 70s
Ran in 9s with no juice no nothing just straight up carburatoration four speed also ..back then they were all four speeds...
Be nice to see the 302 cam in the lt1
Right on
Since I own both , a true 1970/ 355/ LT-1 in my 68 Camaro with 3:90 gears and 29inch slicks and also I own a 68 Pontiac Firebird with a real 4 bolt main Ram Air IV/ 406 in it with 4:11 gears and the same slicks. Keep in mind the Pontiac is 10:75 to 1 compression from the factory. I can tell you without question the Camaro with the 355 LT-1 runs a best of 12:40 ET at 100mph in the 1/4 mile however the Ram Air IV Firebird is a high 11 second car and with some playin around I think the Pontiac could run a low ( very low ) 11 sec. pass real easy. Dynos are not as accurate as seat of the pants running the hell out of them on the drag strip. The Camaro comes out of the gate quicker, but at the 1/8th mile it's all lPontiac. By the way, Pontica does not make a big or small block, they just make Pontiacs. You can pull the valve covers off a 1955/ 287 and bolt them right on a 455. There all the same, there just machined different. Also 62 casting heads are a D port head, the Ram Air II & Ram Air IV ( AKA 614 casting) both are round port exhaust in the heads
a dyno is far more accurate than seat of the pants.
Depends on who's in the pants! @@richardholdener1727 😉
Right on! Finally! Yeah, I had a '68 with RA II. Something strange about the higher velocity ports of the RA II REALLY worked in the 68's. It's like the (10 in) tires can only hold EXACTLY what the 2's are laying down. Check out some of the insane pure stock drags with the RA II. RA IV in '69 had a little more potential for more airflow, in a series with more traction and slicks, headers, etc. My RA II dont have casting numbers, it just says R-A on the two outside exhaust ports. Early castings weren't given a number as maybe only 100 sets I think (?) were made mid '68.
The difference between the 302 and 350 was all in the stroke however the Pontiac is a slightly longer stroke and a bigger bore so it wasn't as dramatic a jump in torque. This text showed how the bore/stroke ratio reflects torque and hp
it shows how displacement changes things-not bore and stroke
Yes more displacement= more power everything else being the same as long as you can enough flow to support it but the other dimension it is how you gain displacement either through boar or stroke longer stroke tends to be more torque and bigger bore short stroke tends to make more high rpm power at least from what I've seen
I would love to see the hottest '69 400 Pontiac offering vs the LT1 since it was the hottest '70 350 Chevy offering. A Ram Air IV would have better air flow, a bigger cam and usually a little bit more compression. The Ram Air 3 used run of the mill heads, intake and the 068 cam was also used on the 428/390 in the Grand Prix and Bonneville. It's a torque cam. The 744 was slightly hotter but still not the 041 Ram Air IV cam. The big problem is of course the price and scarcity of Ram Air IV heads and intake. These #62's are getting pricey enough these days. I can remember going to the junkyard, grabbing a set of #62's that were laying in a pile of heads and paying $20 for them. Taking them home and practicing porting on them and then tossing them when they got in the way. Not today!
Would like to see the LT1 with the DZ 302 cam.
YES
No small or big block Pontiacs, just Pontiac V8's as they all share the same architecture.
Pontiac had belts and accessories. Chevy examples were running with electric water pumps and no accessories. Would that make a difference on the dyno?
Lets see an oldsmobile build.
Small block Pontiac would be a 301 or 265.
I may be completely wrong but my understanding is a true Ram Air IV came with a solid lifter cam as opposed to all other engines using hydraulic lifters. Also Ram Air IV (400 cid) engines had round exhaust like the 73/74 455 HO engines, Ram Air III and std. duty engines used D port exhaust.
HYD FLAT ON RA IV
Limited travel, but still hyd...
Richard needs to get Oldsmobile & Buick 350s for testing. And have a comparison between all 4 of them.
The ram air engines were decked and line bored from the factory mine was ordered with 11.1 pistons and 202 and 160 valves heads. 302 lift cam 292 duration
Hogwash. So you ordered a Ram Air engine with higher compression than they made, smaller valves than any of the 400 4 barrel engines came with, and a camshaft witn no lift and more duration than Pontiac ever used? Sure you did.