Great video, lots of good info! I find that the panel distorts more doing multiple passes actually. I like to start the bead with a turn past first touch and as I travel the first 4-5" (minimum) I add additional turns until I get the desired depth of the feature. I also leave my panels as big as will fit through the bead roller instead of trimming them to the template or close to the template as the panels will Taco less with the extra material around the features. Of course with anything fabrication related, there are many paths to arrive at the same destination!
G'day from West Australia, I have not done bead rolling in many year's. Your method is what I was taught by a coach builder in Sydney Australia. Over 40 plus years ago. I couldn't see how much crown was on your bottom wheel, however I do remember my teacher had a hand made crowning wheel that was not quit pointy in the middle. The contact area was probably just over double the width of the area that was receiving the bead roll. I swear it didn't matter what the material was aluminium, mild steel, copper, brass, or even stainless. His panel's were always perfect. A definite craftsman. All he would say was it's all in the design of the crown wheel that's what makes a perfect bead rolled panel. Loved the video buddy.😉🙂👍👍
Thank you very much, and I'm glad to hear that the techniques have carried through to today. Some folks differ in opinion on English Wheel anvil designs. Some say they should be a smooth radius. Others say they should have a flat spot where the lower meets the upper and that different wheels need different widths. I honestly do not know where I stand on that. I wish I'd seen his setup to figure it out for myself. Thank you for commenting.
@@HotRodHippie you are welcome. Perhaps try regrinding a lower wheel with a small contact area double the width of the depth of your beading . About the best way I can describe it 😉🙂👍👍
Great job. You cover so many aspects along the way. I noticed one person complaining about your moving around. Doesn't bother me at all, actually adds a good dimension in explaining things. One thing for sure, at least as far as me, its not something you just pick up and do, practice, practice and more practice. Thanks for sharing. Have a great day.
I wonder how many newbies to this art have saved all the head scratching and cussing I know I'll save by watching this vedio. AND thanks also for mentioning you have a vedio showing how to make a hand pneumatic palm nailer. Going there next!
Great job. This is a perfect video. I'm going to show this to my students who are making a bomber seat right now. Lots of distortion without pre stretching it. I guess the key would be to stretch it the same amount that you plan on bead rolling it. Like you mentioned in the video.
Ron Grosinger that is the goal. Unfortunately it is easier said than done. Like I said some practice panels will help. Levi Green (HammerFab on IG) had a really good little write up on Instagram about doing pre-stretch. It was a while ago though.
You could use a large rolled die with a rubber die (skateboard wheel) on the reverse side with lightish pressure in the bead roller. This helps to pre stretch in a smaller area and you don’t need an English wheel.
Great video,, this is exactly the kinda videos I like to watch and learn from. Now it would be nice to finish off this "how to" with a follow up "part 2" video on how you fixed the distortion that was present
That is a good suggestion. I was in the midst of the project so I didn't have time to film another video right away. However I will see what I can do about making a video about that soon.
I'm not a sheet metal guy, I'm a machinist, so this may be off in left field, but would heating with a torch, and quenching with a wet rag along the area to be worked tighten up the the stock before working it? When I was a kid I worked at a collision body shop doing brazing, welding and mechanical work, and there was an older guy there that was an incredible sheet metal genius. He could do leading with a torch and a spoon, frame pulling without a frame machine, you name it, but what was really cool was he could hammer and dolly a really smashed panel close, then heat with a torch, quench with a wet rag, then hammer and dolly and completely repair a panel, or a fender, that everyone else would have thrown in the scrap bin. When he was done, you literally didn't need any filler (Bondo) . He'd file it to get rid of tooling marks. The other cool thing was the panel was no longer flexible away from bends and style lines. It was like a rock. Not sure if that was from heating and cooling, or the hammer and dolly work, or both. Excellent video.
Keith Lane heating and quench causes shrinking. Which is exactly the opposite of what we want to happen when beading. Most bead rollers on the market would be incapable of beading through a section of a panel that had been treated like that. It could be used to try and repair the panel after it becomes distorted but it is better to prevent rather than repair. The panels you are mentioning were rock solid because of then hearing and quenching. That is a technique I will use sometimes while metal finishing (working so I don't need filler). However being SOLID is not ideal. Heating and quenching causes the steel to become harder(more brittle). A panel should be flexible, it should give. If you hit a brittle, hardened panel hard enough to dent it, you run a risk of tearing it because of how hard it is. And popping that dent back out would be more difficult. Panels should have give for movement as vehicles flex and to avoid dents. A proper panel should be able to be pushed on at least a little bit and return to its intended shape. Like a door skin often is on a car. That sounds like a solid classic body man to me. However a lot of those old techniques aren't done anymore. At least not to the level they use to be. Such as filing. It removes material which means you finished panel ends up thinner than intended. I do it from time to time but always aim not to do it.
Keith problem point that I was wondering. Could you just heat the metal with a blowtorch, just hot enough to make it more flexible and then Bead Roll it? Perhaps some combination of heat and gradual beard growing in steps could prevent distortion? Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to experiments with this technique. If anyone does please comment. I would love to know how it works!
Yep, Pre stretching is a must for bead rolling. I produce a cargo bike aluminum box. The sides are bead rolled. I had to buy an English wheel just for pre stretching. Now i am practicing some other English wheel techniques.
I work in the jewelry trade as a bench jeweler. When rolling out flat sheets of gold or especially heating a flat sheet the metal will whorp. To avoid this issue I drill a small hole in the center of the flat sheet so the expanding metal has somewhere to move. Perhap you can try this technique in steel and just spot weild the hole closed.
Ferrous metals have a tendency to reorient their structure when heated and cooled. You run a solid risk of hardening something or otherwise changing the characteristics of the metal in adverse ways. Especially when many things can be at least somewhat structural. I'm a big opponent to heating steel when it isn't necessary. That said I may consider that when it comes to aluminum. I anneal aluminum for projects sometimes and that may be worth exploring there.
also for very deep beads that go banana shape I use the same male die and a flat die and run it through it linear stretches the top of the bead that helps bend the bead back to straight without kinks.
Use two flat dies in the bead roller and it will stretch that way if you don’t have a wheeling machine. I also have stretch with the same rolls just push the bead the opposite direction first then flip and roll your beads. Again it take some feel on how far you stretch in the opposite direction. Hopefully that makes sense and help someone that may not have a wheeling machine.
@@joshleners2049 hi there. So if I understand it right, you put the same bead on the wrong side first? just like what the OP suggested with the English wheel? And then flip the panel over and do the same thing again on the right side?
Excellent demonstration and communication. Great video. Good audio. Great demonstration. Loved that your honest about your skill level while I admired your work and hope one day I'll be as good as you! I've sub'd.
What would happen if you heated the bead roll section prior to rolling it to expand the metal? I've been hammering and using my English wheel but haven purchased a bead roller as of yet but I've been watching everything I can to learn. Your video and demonstration was very well done. Thanks!
You would introduce heat distortion, possibly harden the metal a bit, and have a hard time handling the panel while trying to bead roll it. All for minimal gain in my opinion. I never heat up metal unless I have to. Thanks for watching. If you have an English wheek you are already setup to pre-stretch for the bead.
What Thomas said. Edge stretch/shrink as needed to eliminate the distortion. Prestretching may help, but it's faster/easier to remove from the edges on panels that size.
That wave that was left that you mentioned working out before applying a bent edge (flange) would any of that have come out with a shrinker or stretcher? if so, regarding that panel...which one would have been used? I'm attempting to understand what the metal was "showing" us with the result and I'm finding the interpreting of what the metal is saying a goal as I move into metal work. Thanks!
hi - always great videos and very helpful - a quick question - if forming aluminium sheet around corners on a wooden table, do you suggest annealing the edges before using the hammer ? thanks
That really depends on the thickness and alloy of the metal. Something like 18ga 3003? No I don't see any need. But say 16ga 5052? I would. I'd honestly do a test piece and see how it goes. If it's proving too difficult then anneal the piece you actually intend to use.
@@HotRodHippie hi - using 1.2mm - i tried heating and seems to work better - slow process as you know - many thanks and keep the vids comming - ukingdom
I am getting close to building the wheel tubs on my car. I want use a similar design. However, I would also like to bead roll the top side of the tub with the same design. Would the same technique be used on the top side or is there a better technique for curved surfaces such as the top of a wheel tub? If you already have a video addressing this can you please link it for me?
Are you talking steel or aluminum? Or are you working steel while it's hot? Aluminum responds nicely to being annealed. Steel, hot working opens a can of worms in my eyes.
I am talking 20 ga steel me and my team ( wife and 12 yr old son at the time ) did the panels for the floor of a 50 buick sedanette about 8 pieces if i rember correctly (was 8 ish yrs ago) I worked the piece mostly Sarah helped out and my son ran the torch so we would put the piece in the bead roller run a very light pass to mark our line then my son would fire up the torch and hold it about a 1.5 " from the die pinch point tell the metal just started to go a light blue then we would feed it in keeping that color as we worked the line foward we put welding flanges on all panel and beads in the middle for strength worked out very well very little distortion
Jeremy hanna I cannot say that is a method I would suggest but it sounds like it worked well for you, so I can't argue with it. Ha. Having a solid team helps. 👍
I did an entire video dedicated to how I rolled that edge actually. A Shrinker was involved, you can find it here: ua-cam.com/video/JVHx1s5WJrs/v-deo.html
Yb That wheel is the only one I own personally. It is a good wheel for how much it costs. It suffers with the lack of quick release and lack of a kick wheel. At my day job we have a slightly larger wheel I use most often. Just due to convenience. My favorite wheel I have used is a MAF30 from MetalAce. The bigger brother to this one. However I'll always keep the small one because the smaller diameter and width wheels are useful on smaller parts. I hope that answers your question.
Great Video. Keep up the good work. Got a question on warping. Will a second bead outside the first one in the opposite direction help cure the problem?
Serdar Aytemiz I've had reason to do that in the past and it just compounds distractions. They may slightly cancel each other out but overall it turns into a mess. I would not figure on doing that to fix a piece.
@@HotRodHippie Thank you. I will get a panel done for a trailer cabin where i am trying to reduce the weight. I am trying to find a punch machine with a rolling mold.
Interesting, I haven't tried that before. That won't add the necessary stretch to a more heavily distorted panel but could be good for a little quick adjustment like I showed bending it over your knee and such. Thanks for the input, I will give that a try some time.
I just rolled a .060 aluminum dash panel 18" x 54" with a bead every 2". I stopped half way through and ran it through the slip roll then finished beading and flattened it again. Perfectly flat panel.
I may be wrong, but i would think a better description of pre stretching a panel would be to soften up the metal molecules with heat. You’re not actually adding metal to the bead rolled area as you state.
"pre stretching" has little to nothing to do with softening the material. In fact you are arguably work hardening it in the process. "Adding metal" is an oversimplification of the process though, just how I chose to explain it at the time. Think about pizza dough laid on on a counter. If you grab the middle of the dough and pull upward, you will "stretch out" the center. The dough will become thinner, and when you let go it will collapse down into a lump. It will no longer be the same shape appearing to "have more dough" in the middle. When what really happened is you thinned out the dough that was present into a wider area. If you then pull the edges of the dough outward, you will no longer have a bunched up center as it will all thin out to match. This is what is happening with "pre-stretching". You are thinning out the metal in those areas, but as the metal around those areas is still there, the thinned out material has nowhere to go. If you then bead-roll or otherwise form the material in a way that would change the shape of it, the thinner metal has somewhere to take up that extra space now. You've given a space for the stress in the metal to be relieved. If you don't do this pre-stretching_ and just form the metal, your panel will have a tendency to warp because you are taking that solid metal that is locked in to its shape and trying to PULL it into this new form. The tension of all the metal around that new form is pulling against the shape you just made. This is stress that is locked into the panel. If you were to heat that area red hot, then bead roll it, it would in fact form much easier. And potentially it would have less stress in it afterward, but that is wildly unpredictable. You are changing the temper of the metal and it could have knock-on effects. That area may be more brittle and hard now. So if the shape wasn't exactly what you wanted, you'd have to heat it again to achieve the desired result. Each time you heat cycle it you are further changing the material properties in largely uncontrolled ways. So now you have a panel that may have a hard spot. Or the heat can cause stress to relieve in one area but form in another. Heat should ALWAYS be the last resort in metal shaping. It is too difficult to control in a uniform and predictable way. Does that make more sense? Kind of a deep topic, which is why I didn't dive deeper into it in this video. It is a subject that requires its own video (or multiple) and not every video can be that deep.
Do you think that my M Brothers inc planishing hammer would be good enough for pre stretching I have all the dyes or do you recommend in English wheel I work in a hot rod shop and I by all of my own equipment.
I actually recommend a plainishing hammer over an English wheel. I just did this because it was the tool I had at hand at the time and also I feel like more folks have access to an E-wheel than a planishing hammer. They both achieve the same desired result, stretch where you will be adding your head detail. Do some test pieces and see where it takes you. 👍🏻👍🏻
You can use a combination of shrinking and stretching to compensate for this but it’s only really a band aid usually. It can get a panel to a usable state but isn’t a replacement for the method I showed here. Often you can’t reach with a normal shrinker / stretcher to the areas that would most need the attention.
Absolutely. It will be a lot of work but entirely doable. A Planishing Hammer is basically the same concept as a Hammer and Dolly striking directly on dolly. So I would use a high crown dolly and lots of strikes closely overlapping each other. You are trying to stretch the metal so it's going to take time and effort. Likely quite a few passes around what you are trying to bead roll. I wouldn't recommend doing it, but it is doable.
enjoyed the video but not a true comparison as the first piece different size and shape and was flat before starting the second sheet had edge rolled which helps keep sheet from warping
Its not "tin canning. The term is "oil canning" and it comes from the old style oil cans. The ones that were a half sphere shape. The flat bottom was domes a slight amount so that you could invert the oil can and pump oil out with your thumb. Each time you would push with your thumb a bit of oil would come out the spout and the oil can made a "thump, thump" sound. Great video anyway. Billk
Not a problem. I see a lot of very talented craftsmen, such as yourself, using terms that are close but not really correct. I suppose there isn't a dictionary of this type of thing. I have been into hotrods since they were really hotrods and a lot has been lost or changed over the years. Keep up the good work. I enjoy it and am learning from it.
A combination of shrinker stretcher and the Mittler Bros Rounding Over Dies. Mittler Dies: ua-cam.com/video/SBsSIxKL7JI/v-deo.html Shrinker Stretcher: ua-cam.com/video/vs1mxdBuqh4/v-deo.html
Very helpful dies? I live in CANADA and i have access to the EASTWOOD CO. who sell some of these dies like tipping dies and such. I have a small ENGLISH WHEEL and the shrinkers ,stretchers that i never used yet. Fun times ahead. Thanks!!!!
No bead roller currently commercially available will do 1/8” Aluminum to my knowledge. The frame rigidity required would need a cast structure most likely. Like an old school Pettingell roller MAYBE. A Pullmax tool using a beading / stepping die setup MAY achieve the desired result after multiple passes. But really a serious stamping process is likely the best path to follow. All that leads me to, what in the heck are you building that needs beading on a 1/8” Aluminum? Standard bead rolling is intended to provide additional structure to thin materials and aesthetic detailing. A part designed around 1/8” thick material should really have structure in the design. If it doesn’t, why use such a thick and heavy material?
Hot rod hippie the second panel had a flang around about 60 percent of the panel. I would think that had more to do with the panel not being destorted very much.....than the pre streching, what is your opinion? Hope I dont sound rude anything, just asking..
I specifically said in the video that bending a flange is a workaround. That said, no it isn't a magic bullet. Pre-Stretching goes further to limiting distortion and doing that combined with bending a flange just makes it that much better. If all you do is bend a flange, a distorted panel is still at it's heart distorted. This can especially show up when welding it to another piece. Distorted panels have a lot of tension locked up in themselves. When you weld then to other pieces the heat and weld "warping" sort of "free up" that distortion and allow it to warp the weld even more. Relaxed panels make for better and less warped panels in the end. Does that make sense?
You'd harden the metal and ruin the properties of it. Handling the heated material to run it through a beadroller would be challenging, but it would work. However you'd be left with a panel that has been altered from it's intended metallurgy. Along with that, just heating sheetmetal red hot warps it significantly. So no saying you wouldn't be much worse off. I get where your thought process is at, but try something. Heat a piece of steel sheetmetal red hot, then let it cool. Now put it outside for a couple days/weeks. Come back and see what rusts first and the worst. I guarantee it will be the spot you heated red hot.
Thank you. I am not quite sure I understand what you are asking. If you try to bend or roll an angle inside on a radius, it will require shrinking. Such as using a shrinker to take the distortion out of the panel. (I hope this is close to what you are asking, I don't speak Croatian, had to google translate. My name is Croatian, but I have no knowledge of the land or language.)
L. J. Bush annealing steel is a difficult process to achieve in most situations. Annealing aluminum is much easier but that only softens the metal. It will beadroll easier but still distort all the same. The distortion is all about the material needing to stretch. Annealing may ever so slightly stretch material from the heat expansion but nothing like what is necessary here. I anneal the aluminum sheets I use when I do beadrolling art pieces, but they still distort. I just anneal those to make it easier on myself.
Yes, a couple of them in fact. I've been known to use them to reduce distortion after beadrolling before. However it isn't a method I like to use. The tooling marks and further changing of the panels shape aren't ideal to me.
Please don't call it "tin canning". The term is "oil canning". It comes from early oil cans. These coilers had a hemisperical shape with a sort of flat bottom. To use this oiling can you inverted it and used your thumb to push on the now upturned bottom of the oiler. the bottom would pop in and out from the pressure of your thumb causing the oil to flow out the spout. It made a distimct "thumk, thunk" noise in operation. I suppose the term "tin canning" came from someone who has never seen one of these early oil cans. Other than that I think your videos are excellent and enjoy them. I have done some simple metal shaping and find it satisfying. Thanks, Billk
Stop saying "go ahead". It is a bad habit and it doesn't add anything useful. Good vid otherwise. A bit of wheeling along the edges to balance the stretching inside the panel should help straighten it.
Wondering how I rolled the edge of this panel to give it a clean radius? Check out this full video: ua-cam.com/video/JVHx1s5WJrs/v-deo.html
Great video, lots of good info! I find that the panel distorts more doing multiple passes actually. I like to start the bead with a turn past first touch and as I travel the first 4-5" (minimum) I add additional turns until I get the desired depth of the feature. I also leave my panels as big as will fit through the bead roller instead of trimming them to the template or close to the template as the panels will Taco less with the extra material around the features. Of course with anything fabrication related, there are many paths to arrive at the same destination!
Very good info you also have given
G'day from West Australia,
I have not done bead rolling in many year's.
Your method is what I was taught by a coach builder in Sydney Australia.
Over 40 plus years ago.
I couldn't see how much crown was on your bottom wheel, however I do remember my teacher had a hand made crowning wheel that was not quit pointy in the middle.
The contact area was probably just over double the width of the area that was receiving the bead roll. I swear it didn't matter what the material was aluminium, mild steel, copper, brass, or even stainless. His panel's were always perfect. A definite craftsman.
All he would say was it's all in the design of the crown wheel that's what makes a perfect bead rolled panel.
Loved the video buddy.😉🙂👍👍
Thank you very much, and I'm glad to hear that the techniques have carried through to today. Some folks differ in opinion on English Wheel anvil designs. Some say they should be a smooth radius. Others say they should have a flat spot where the lower meets the upper and that different wheels need different widths. I honestly do not know where I stand on that. I wish I'd seen his setup to figure it out for myself. Thank you for commenting.
@@HotRodHippie you are welcome.
Perhaps try regrinding a lower wheel with a small contact area double the width of the depth of your beading . About the best way I can describe it 😉🙂👍👍
You and Lazze have become my favorites. I've been learning an incredible amount lately. Thank you!
Thank you. I'm glad you've enjoyed it. I hope I can continue to deliver. 👍👍
Best explanation and demonstration of pre-stretching on UA-cam.
Great job. You cover so many aspects along the way. I noticed one person complaining about your moving around. Doesn't bother me at all, actually adds a good dimension in explaining things. One thing for sure, at least as far as me, its not something you just pick up and do, practice, practice and more practice. Thanks for sharing. Have a great day.
Absolutely agree. I usually do practice pieces on more complex and important projects. The best thing folks can do is practice practice practice.
Nice. Easy to follow and NO BS! I like that.
Much appreciated 👍🏻
Yes.. I like your tutorial ... and your clear articulation.
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. It's appreciated 👍
You're really good at these videos, man. Thanks for spreading the gospel, and continuing to chase excellence.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate it.
I wonder how many newbies to this art have saved all the head scratching and cussing I know I'll save by watching this vedio. AND thanks also for mentioning you have a vedio showing how to make a hand pneumatic palm nailer. Going there next!
I hope I’m helping a lot of folks on their journey of learning these crafts. That is the goal. Thank you!
Great job. This is a perfect video. I'm going to show this to my students who are making a bomber seat right now. Lots of distortion without pre stretching it. I guess the key would be to stretch it the same amount that you plan on bead rolling it. Like you mentioned in the video.
Ron Grosinger that is the goal. Unfortunately it is easier said than done. Like I said some practice panels will help. Levi Green (HammerFab on IG) had a really good little write up on Instagram about doing pre-stretch. It was a while ago though.
You could use a large rolled die with a rubber die (skateboard wheel) on the reverse side with lightish pressure in the bead roller. This helps to pre stretch in a smaller area and you don’t need an English wheel.
Great video,, this is exactly the kinda videos I like to watch and learn from. Now it would be nice to finish off this "how to" with a follow up "part 2" video on how you fixed the distortion that was present
That is a good suggestion. I was in the midst of the project so I didn't have time to film another video right away. However I will see what I can do about making a video about that soon.
Great video, we call that 'tin can' effect 'clicker frogging' from the pressed out tin frog toys that click when you press the tab.
Haha, I can't say I've thought of those things in a long while.
I'm learning this stuff before I'm dead!
Man, thanks for your videos! Incredibly new to bead rolling and this has been a problem. Long time subscriber for a reason!
Thank you 👍👍
Great video! Straight to the point, GREAT TIPS and I like how he's open for suggestions to make his skills better.
Hi, I'm a Panel Beater and found this video really helpful. Cheers
Greg Buclkland glad I could help. 👍
I'm not a sheet metal guy, I'm a machinist, so this may be off in left field, but would heating with a torch, and quenching with a wet rag along the area to be worked tighten up the the stock before working it? When I was a kid I worked at a collision body shop doing brazing, welding and mechanical work, and there was an older guy there that was an incredible sheet metal genius. He could do leading with a torch and a spoon, frame pulling without a frame machine, you name it, but what was really cool was he could hammer and dolly a really smashed panel close, then heat with a torch, quench with a wet rag, then hammer and dolly and completely repair a panel, or a fender, that everyone else would have thrown in the scrap bin. When he was done, you literally didn't need any filler (Bondo) . He'd file it to get rid of tooling marks. The other cool thing was the panel was no longer flexible away from bends and style lines. It was like a rock. Not sure if that was from heating and cooling, or the hammer and dolly work, or both. Excellent video.
Keith Lane heating and quench causes shrinking. Which is exactly the opposite of what we want to happen when beading. Most bead rollers on the market would be incapable of beading through a section of a panel that had been treated like that. It could be used to try and repair the panel after it becomes distorted but it is better to prevent rather than repair.
The panels you are mentioning were rock solid because of then hearing and quenching. That is a technique I will use sometimes while metal finishing (working so I don't need filler). However being SOLID is not ideal. Heating and quenching causes the steel to become harder(more brittle). A panel should be flexible, it should give. If you hit a brittle, hardened panel hard enough to dent it, you run a risk of tearing it because of how hard it is. And popping that dent back out would be more difficult. Panels should have give for movement as vehicles flex and to avoid dents. A proper panel should be able to be pushed on at least a little bit and return to its intended shape. Like a door skin often is on a car.
That sounds like a solid classic body man to me. However a lot of those old techniques aren't done anymore. At least not to the level they use to be. Such as filing. It removes material which means you finished panel ends up thinner than intended. I do it from time to time but always aim not to do it.
Largely depends on the sheet metal being worked. Older cars had much thicker, workable metal
Keith problem point that I was wondering. Could you just heat the metal with a blowtorch, just hot enough to make it more flexible and then Bead Roll it?
Perhaps some combination of heat and gradual beard growing in steps could prevent distortion?
Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to experiments with this technique. If anyone does please comment. I would love to know how it works!
Thank you, I’m learning
This is AMAZING!!! THANK YOU!!!
Good info as always, thanks for taking the time to demonstrate it
Sean B. Happy to do so.
......WOW!!!!! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!! THANKS FOR THIS DEMO!!!!
Thank you very much
Good tips! I'm actually going to make my first job with a beadroller pretty soon. I need to build a floor for our Land Rover.
thank you, I learned something from this
Glad to hear it. Thanks 👍
Thank you, I am in Australia and find your videos really helpful. Cheers
Glad to hear it. Thanks for commenting. 👍
Yep, Pre stretching is a must for bead rolling. I produce a cargo bike aluminum box. The sides are bead rolled. I had to buy an English wheel just for pre stretching. Now i am practicing some other English wheel techniques.
A versatile tool once you get the hang of it.
HotRodHippie yeah, for sure! I just need to do some projects with it. That way I can really utilize it. Thanks for the informative videos.
One of the best intro vids on how to beadroll. Great Job!!
Simple and to the point!!!
I work in the jewelry trade as a bench jeweler. When rolling out flat sheets of gold or especially heating a flat sheet the metal will whorp. To avoid this issue I drill a small hole in the center of the flat sheet so the expanding metal has somewhere to move. Perhap you can try this technique in steel and just spot weild the hole closed.
Ferrous metals have a tendency to reorient their structure when heated and cooled. You run a solid risk of hardening something or otherwise changing the characteristics of the metal in adverse ways. Especially when many things can be at least somewhat structural. I'm a big opponent to heating steel when it isn't necessary.
That said I may consider that when it comes to aluminum. I anneal aluminum for projects sometimes and that may be worth exploring there.
these tips are good to know they can save you time in doing work very good videos you make. colin uk.
Ehgland thank you very much
I just found your videos. Your descriptions and examples are great. I'm subscribed.
Thank you very much. Appreciate having you around 👍👍
Informative! Thanks
also for very deep beads that go banana shape I use the same male die and a flat die and run it through it linear stretches the top of the bead that helps bend the bead back to straight without kinks.
kieren meier do you mean in be English wheel? I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Sounds like an interesting method.
Use two flat dies in the bead roller and it will stretch that way if you don’t have a wheeling machine. I also have stretch with the same rolls just push the bead the opposite direction first then flip and roll your beads. Again it take some feel on how far you stretch in the opposite direction. Hopefully that makes sense and help someone that may not have a wheeling machine.
Josh Leners great input!
@@joshleners2049 hi there. So if I understand it right, you put the same bead on the wrong side first? just like what the OP suggested with the English wheel? And then flip the panel over and do the same thing again on the right side?
You are a genius!! I wish I knew this stuff.
Excellent demonstration and communication. Great video. Good audio. Great demonstration. Loved that your honest about your skill level while I admired your work and hope one day I'll be as good as you! I've sub'd.
Thank you very much. Hope to keep providing quality videos and information. 👍👍
Excellent lesson. Thank you.
Guillermo Nieri thank you and you are quite welcome.
Great video thank you
Thanks awesome video. I always enjoy learning new tricks.
Glad to hear it. I'm always looking to expand my knowledge. 👍
Thank you...great tutorial!
You are welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting. 👍
Great lesson. Thank you.
You're welcome and thank you.
Good job mate
Spot on !! You are a great narrator
Thank you very much.
roll a bead half depth in the opposite direction that you want the finished bead. Then flip over and roll the bead in the direction you want it.
I can imagine that working well, but wouldn't the first bead need a less radical profile (ie a different, larger radius pair of rollers)?
New sub here, love the video, very helpful.
Thank you very much for subscribing and the comment. It is greatly appreciated. I hope my tips and tutorials continue to be informative.
Excellent video!👍
What would happen if you heated the bead roll section prior to rolling it to expand the metal? I've been hammering and using my English wheel but haven purchased a bead roller as of yet but I've been watching everything I can to learn. Your video and demonstration was very well done. Thanks!
You would introduce heat distortion, possibly harden the metal a bit, and have a hard time handling the panel while trying to bead roll it. All for minimal gain in my opinion. I never heat up metal unless I have to.
Thanks for watching. If you have an English wheek you are already setup to pre-stretch for the bead.
@@HotRodHippie Makes sense. Thanks.
How did you roll the edge that’s on the panel? Thanks for your videos. Always learn from them.
I did a full video about how that is done here: ua-cam.com/video/JVHx1s5WJrs/v-deo.html
@@HotRodHippie awesome man. Thank you
@@HotRodHippie awesome man. Thank you
I think you just saved me another wasted panel!
Good video mate👍🏻
Thank you very much
Excellent videoo
Lmao at 4:23 he says form it around my nut 😂😂😂😂😂😂
You win this round. I was trying to say "around my knee" but definitely said "around my nut"
lmao 😂
@@HotRodHippie Yep, you have a pair of 'bad - azz' nut's! (Or one big one?) Thanks for making and posting your procedure!
@@HotRodHippie I am so glad you didn't edit it out. aside from the helpful info it was a funny highlight.
Great Job!
Do you have another method for straightening a distorted panel or a way to prevent it from occurring?
use a shrinker along the edges that are stretchered. you dont need a lot of pressure
I use 0.032 (20 gauge) aluminum for pipe cladding.
I will oil the rollers well and make up to 5 passes.
It works for me.
What Thomas said. Edge stretch/shrink as needed to eliminate the distortion. Prestretching may help, but it's faster/easier to remove from the edges on panels that size.
Great vid mate
Thank you!
That wave that was left that you mentioned working out before applying a bent edge (flange) would any of that have come out with a shrinker or stretcher? if so, regarding that panel...which one would have been used? I'm attempting to understand what the metal was "showing" us with the result and I'm finding the interpreting of what the metal is saying a goal as I move into metal work. Thanks!
Thanx....great vid
Thank you, glad you liked it.
hi - always great videos and very helpful - a quick question - if forming aluminium sheet around corners on a wooden table, do you suggest annealing the edges before using the hammer ?
thanks
That really depends on the thickness and alloy of the metal. Something like 18ga 3003? No I don't see any need. But say 16ga 5052? I would. I'd honestly do a test piece and see how it goes. If it's proving too difficult then anneal the piece you actually intend to use.
@@HotRodHippie hi - using 1.2mm - i tried heating and seems to work better - slow process as you know - many thanks and keep the vids comming - ukingdom
l "liked" and wanted to thank you for the great videos.
Thank you very much.
I am getting close to building the wheel tubs on my car. I want use a similar design. However, I would also like to bead roll the top side of the tub with the same design. Would the same technique be used on the top side or is there a better technique for curved surfaces such as the top of a wheel tub? If you already have a video addressing this can you please link it for me?
Thanks. Seems like a bead roller is is useless without the English wheel.
How much do you normally add to compensate for shrinkage?
Like your style😉
I heat my panels with mapp gas seems to help it stretch a little bit better
Are you talking steel or aluminum? Or are you working steel while it's hot? Aluminum responds nicely to being annealed. Steel, hot working opens a can of worms in my eyes.
I am talking 20 ga steel me and my team ( wife and 12 yr old son at the time ) did the panels for the floor of a 50 buick sedanette about 8 pieces if i rember correctly (was 8 ish yrs ago) I worked the piece mostly Sarah helped out and my son ran the torch so we would put the piece in the bead roller run a very light pass to mark our line then my son would fire up the torch and hold it about a 1.5 " from the die pinch point tell the metal just started to go a light blue then we would feed it in keeping that color as we worked the line foward we put welding flanges on all panel and beads in the middle for strength worked out very well very little distortion
Jeremy hanna I cannot say that is a method I would suggest but it sounds like it worked well for you, so I can't argue with it. Ha. Having a solid team helps. 👍
So what tool/tools are used to put the rounded edge on that panel? Shrinker?
I did an entire video dedicated to how I rolled that edge actually. A Shrinker was involved, you can find it here: ua-cam.com/video/JVHx1s5WJrs/v-deo.html
Would going “easy” on the size and depth of the beads help…. Oh, more or less mentioned.
I was putting it into the vice with some wood to squash it, at least now I know why it happens.
Do you have a bigger wheel or is that Metal Ace what you use? How do you like it?
Yb
That wheel is the only one I own personally. It is a good wheel for how much it costs. It suffers with the lack of quick release and lack of a kick wheel. At my day job we have a slightly larger wheel I use most often. Just due to convenience. My favorite wheel I have used is a MAF30 from MetalAce. The bigger brother to this one. However I'll always keep the small one because the smaller diameter and width wheels are useful on smaller parts. I hope that answers your question.
Great Video. Keep up the good work.
Got a question on warping. Will a second bead outside the first one in the opposite direction help cure the problem?
Serdar Aytemiz I've had reason to do that in the past and it just compounds distractions. They may slightly cancel each other out but overall it turns into a mess. I would not figure on doing that to fix a piece.
@@HotRodHippie Thank you. I will get a panel done for a trailer cabin where i am trying to reduce the weight. I am trying to find a punch machine with a rolling mold.
Another way to do it:
I just run the beaded panel through my slip rolls afterwards (light pressure) and they straighten right out.
Interesting, I haven't tried that before. That won't add the necessary stretch to a more heavily distorted panel but could be good for a little quick adjustment like I showed bending it over your knee and such. Thanks for the input, I will give that a try some time.
I just rolled a .060 aluminum dash panel 18" x 54" with a bead every 2". I stopped half way through and ran it through the slip roll then finished beading and flattened it again. Perfectly flat panel.
Sal Molinare well I will absolutely have to try that out. Thanks for the idea.
Thanks for the great videos.
I may be wrong, but i would think a better description of pre stretching a panel would be to soften up the metal molecules with heat.
You’re not actually adding metal to the bead rolled area as you state.
"pre stretching" has little to nothing to do with softening the material. In fact you are arguably work hardening it in the process. "Adding metal" is an oversimplification of the process though, just how I chose to explain it at the time.
Think about pizza dough laid on on a counter. If you grab the middle of the dough and pull upward, you will "stretch out" the center. The dough will become thinner, and when you let go it will collapse down into a lump. It will no longer be the same shape appearing to "have more dough" in the middle. When what really happened is you thinned out the dough that was present into a wider area. If you then pull the edges of the dough outward, you will no longer have a bunched up center as it will all thin out to match.
This is what is happening with "pre-stretching". You are thinning out the metal in those areas, but as the metal around those areas is still there, the thinned out material has nowhere to go. If you then bead-roll or otherwise form the material in a way that would change the shape of it, the thinner metal has somewhere to take up that extra space now. You've given a space for the stress in the metal to be relieved.
If you don't do this pre-stretching_ and just form the metal, your panel will have a tendency to warp because you are taking that solid metal that is locked in to its shape and trying to PULL it into this new form. The tension of all the metal around that new form is pulling against the shape you just made. This is stress that is locked into the panel.
If you were to heat that area red hot, then bead roll it, it would in fact form much easier. And potentially it would have less stress in it afterward, but that is wildly unpredictable. You are changing the temper of the metal and it could have knock-on effects. That area may be more brittle and hard now. So if the shape wasn't exactly what you wanted, you'd have to heat it again to achieve the desired result. Each time you heat cycle it you are further changing the material properties in largely uncontrolled ways. So now you have a panel that may have a hard spot. Or the heat can cause stress to relieve in one area but form in another. Heat should ALWAYS be the last resort in metal shaping. It is too difficult to control in a uniform and predictable way.
Does that make more sense? Kind of a deep topic, which is why I didn't dive deeper into it in this video. It is a subject that requires its own video (or multiple) and not every video can be that deep.
Do you think that my M Brothers inc planishing hammer would be good enough for pre stretching I have all the dyes or do you recommend in English wheel I work in a hot rod shop and I by all of my own equipment.
I actually recommend a plainishing hammer over an English wheel. I just did this because it was the tool I had at hand at the time and also I feel like more folks have access to an E-wheel than a planishing hammer. They both achieve the same desired result, stretch where you will be adding your head detail. Do some test pieces and see where it takes you. 👍🏻👍🏻
Question on this panel could you use shrinker on the edge maybe in medium pressure on edge then lighter pressure on a 2nd pass?
You can use a combination of shrinking and stretching to compensate for this but it’s only really a band aid usually. It can get a panel to a usable state but isn’t a replacement for the method I showed here. Often you can’t reach with a normal shrinker / stretcher to the areas that would most need the attention.
@@HotRodHippie thanks
Can you do something similar with a hammer and dolly?
Absolutely. It will be a lot of work but entirely doable. A Planishing Hammer is basically the same concept as a Hammer and Dolly striking directly on dolly. So I would use a high crown dolly and lots of strikes closely overlapping each other. You are trying to stretch the metal so it's going to take time and effort. Likely quite a few passes around what you are trying to bead roll. I wouldn't recommend doing it, but it is doable.
enjoyed the video but not a true comparison as the first piece different size and shape and was flat before starting the second sheet had edge rolled which helps keep sheet from warping
What method did you use to roll the top edge and keep it flat?
Troy Henderson excellent question, I did another video explaining that process in its entirety: ua-cam.com/video/JVHx1s5WJrs/v-deo.html
@@HotRodHippie Ah thank you! I want to make panels like this soon so I'm looking for tips :)
Its not "tin canning. The term is "oil canning" and it comes from the old style oil cans. The ones that were a half sphere shape. The flat bottom was domes a slight amount so that you could invert the oil can and pump oil out with your thumb. Each time you would push with your thumb a bit of oil would come out the spout and the oil can made a "thump, thump" sound. Great video anyway. Billk
You are correct. Just a habit of years of saying the wrong term. Thank you 👍
Not a problem. I see a lot of very talented craftsmen, such as yourself, using terms that are close but not really correct. I suppose there isn't a dictionary of this type of thing. I have been into hotrods since they were really hotrods and a lot has been lost or changed over the years. Keep up the good work. I enjoy it and am learning from it.
How did you roll the edge of that panel? What tool did you use?
A combination of shrinker stretcher and the Mittler Bros Rounding Over Dies.
Mittler Dies: ua-cam.com/video/SBsSIxKL7JI/v-deo.html
Shrinker Stretcher: ua-cam.com/video/vs1mxdBuqh4/v-deo.html
Very helpful dies? I live in CANADA and i have access to the EASTWOOD CO. who sell some of these dies like tipping dies and such. I have a small ENGLISH WHEEL and the shrinkers ,stretchers that i never used yet. Fun times ahead. Thanks!!!!
Is tin canny the same as what guys my age (old) called oil canning?
Yes, that is the proper term, I just get stuck in my loop of calling it tin canning.
@@HotRodHippie Brits call it "panting"
Good to know. Thanks
I am not interested in flimsy materials. I only use 1/8th inch aluminum. Can it do this?
No bead roller currently commercially available will do 1/8” Aluminum to my knowledge. The frame rigidity required would need a cast structure most likely. Like an old school Pettingell roller MAYBE.
A Pullmax tool using a beading / stepping die setup MAY achieve the desired result after multiple passes. But really a serious stamping process is likely the best path to follow.
All that leads me to, what in the heck are you building that needs beading on a 1/8” Aluminum? Standard bead rolling is intended to provide additional structure to thin materials and aesthetic detailing. A part designed around 1/8” thick material should really have structure in the design. If it doesn’t, why use such a thick and heavy material?
Hot rod hippie the second panel had a flang around about 60 percent of the panel. I would think that had more to do with the panel not being destorted very much.....than the pre streching, what is your opinion?
Hope I dont sound rude anything, just asking..
I specifically said in the video that bending a flange is a workaround. That said, no it isn't a magic bullet. Pre-Stretching goes further to limiting distortion and doing that combined with bending a flange just makes it that much better.
If all you do is bend a flange, a distorted panel is still at it's heart distorted. This can especially show up when welding it to another piece. Distorted panels have a lot of tension locked up in themselves. When you weld then to other pieces the heat and weld "warping" sort of "free up" that distortion and allow it to warp the weld even more. Relaxed panels make for better and less warped panels in the end. Does that make sense?
thanks for answering peoples questions
@@ericsimpson1176 happy to do so when I have the time and the answer to give. 👍
Great job, but now I hate you as I have to buy an English wheel. keep up the videos.
My plan is working! Haha, seriously thank you though.
We almost need a curved dies to roll the pre stretch first
What would happen if you heated it with propane torch while putting bead in it? PS I am not body fender guy jest auto mechanic.
You'd harden the metal and ruin the properties of it. Handling the heated material to run it through a beadroller would be challenging, but it would work. However you'd be left with a panel that has been altered from it's intended metallurgy. Along with that, just heating sheetmetal red hot warps it significantly. So no saying you wouldn't be much worse off.
I get where your thought process is at, but try something. Heat a piece of steel sheetmetal red hot, then let it cool. Now put it outside for a couple days/weeks. Come back and see what rusts first and the worst. I guarantee it will be the spot you heated red hot.
Are you a descendant of Abe Lincoln? I can't get an image of you with a top hat out of my head now.
Maybe that will be my Halloween special this year. Ha
Super objasnjeno ,imas li savjet za savijanje unutarnjeg radijusa pod 90 stupnjeva ,imam sa tim problema ,uvijek mi se nagrispa?
Thank you. I am not quite sure I understand what you are asking. If you try to bend or roll an angle inside on a radius, it will require shrinking. Such as using a shrinker to take the distortion out of the panel.
(I hope this is close to what you are asking, I don't speak Croatian, had to google translate. My name is Croatian, but I have no knowledge of the land or language.)
@@HotRodHippie Sorry for the language, and i think this will be useful, regards.
Can't you eliminate the the distortion by annealing the metal before you run the bead?
L. J. Bush annealing steel is a difficult process to achieve in most situations. Annealing aluminum is much easier but that only softens the metal. It will beadroll easier but still distort all the same. The distortion is all about the material needing to stretch. Annealing may ever so slightly stretch material from the heat expansion but nothing like what is necessary here. I anneal the aluminum sheets I use when I do beadrolling art pieces, but they still distort. I just anneal those to make it easier on myself.
I don't know why more beading machines do not have a quick release feature.
Got a shrinker?
Yes, a couple of them in fact. I've been known to use them to reduce distortion after beadrolling before. However it isn't a method I like to use. The tooling marks and further changing of the panels shape aren't ideal to me.
good video, messy shop.
I've been waiting for that comment, ha. Thanks for the compliment. 👍The shop is my dad's and drives me nuts as well. Ha
10-4 I totally understand. We do what we can where we can. I was probably 40 before I got my own shop.
Better a busy mess than an idle tidiness ;)
Nice video
Is your night job sign language instructor?
No I double as a personal fan for a wealthy person.
Авраам Линкольн в татухах)))))
HIPPIE??? Tattoos and Elvis sideburns does not make you a Hippie, it’s Rock-a-Billy. Wrong generation but your videos are helpful.
Please don't call it "tin canning". The term is "oil canning". It comes from early oil cans. These coilers had a hemisperical shape with a sort of flat bottom. To use this oiling can you inverted it and used your thumb to push on the now upturned bottom of the oiler. the bottom would pop in and out from the pressure of your thumb causing the oil to flow out the spout. It made a distimct "thumk, thunk" noise in operation. I suppose the term "tin canning" came from someone who has never seen one of these early oil cans. Other than that I think your videos are excellent and enjoy them. I have done some simple metal shaping and find it satisfying. Thanks, Billk
Do you know sign.. I think you dooo? T/U +++++
I've been meaning to learn. Currently I just speak hand gibberish.
Who is watching this in 2024
You have to much olokoso
Habla en demasía , es un pesado
¿Cómo se supone que aprenderás si no te lo explico? Es un video de "instrucciones".
I'm offended by all of this tin can bashing
First time clicking on this channel, he looks interesting and all but the tattoos kill the look
Stop saying "go ahead". It is a bad habit and it doesn't add anything useful. Good vid otherwise. A bit of wheeling along the edges to balance the stretching inside the panel should help straighten it.
I found your video very informative. You didn't say which lower die is preferred, If any.