I am a tuba player and I think the euphonium is the best choice for this solo. We are all used to hearing the thin, strained sound of the tuba's high register on this solo and the guy in the video plays it perfectly. But, the risk is high. Many tuba players have slipped here and ruined their careers and reputations (not me, fortunately). One famous professional in New York used to have it written into his contracts that he would not have to play this solo. The risk is not necessary when the solo sounds so good on the euphonium, an instrument whose range suits it much better.
I completely disagree. Bydlo is not even that difficult of a solo compare to what other brass instruments have to handle, refusing to play the most famous and prominent solo on your instrument js ridiculous. It’s like a trumpet player saying they wouldn’t play Mahler 3 post horn solo/alpine symphony/Mahler 7, a trombone player saying they wouldn’t play bolero/mahler3 or a horn player saying they wouldn’t play Dvorak9. In addition musically speaking, a “strained” sound most definitely would better represent a ox car pulling cargos in the mud. That’s what emphasizes the struggle which the ox is in.
@@dingrobin7924the argument comes from the fact that the piece was not orchestrated to be played on a modern bass tuba in F, but a French tuba in C, one step above a euphonium.
By far the F tuba for me. IMO the most interesting and colorful choice here, even if this wasn't composed for it. As the solo describes a very big and ordinary thing, having a very cumbersome instrument which plays it an unusual/clumsy register is both a very good description and a quite ear-catching rendition. Other instruments, when playing the solo, tend to be in their best register, which makes the solo sound very "easy" and not heavy, or even lyrical, which is not the point at all. Also, I feel like the F tuba really does "moo" like a cow on those high fifths, but maybe that's just me. I feel that Ravel's choice was simply to use the lowest instrument he had available at the time, but maybe if had the F tuba as a choice he would have opted for it. After all, Ravel is know for using extreme instrument registers to obtain certain unusual colors.
Also Ravel will have had access to a full compliment of modern brass as he lived in the early half of the 20th Century and did much of his composing and arrainging in that time.
I agree with you. I love the velvety depth of the F tuba and prefer it. It sounds to me the most like an oxcart and the most Russian, but I must admit the pungency of French tuba (likely the instrument Ravel had in his ear) is fasinating. It's interesting knowing that the most famous orchestration of a very distinctly Russian piano work is a very distinctly French one. Knowing the mutual admiration French and Russian composers often had for each other's music, it isn't at all surprising.
I wouldn't consider even the euphonium to be in its "best register" on the high G# slurs, but I certainly am drawn to the "woofy" quality of the high notes on F tuba and its general heaviness of character.
I agree with this. I think the solo can be lovely on a euphonium, but of these four, the solo on tuba was by far the best purely on the basis of the tuba player was actually in time. The modern recording with period instruments (the second recording) had a particularly rushed solo
I noticed that, too. He was right on the money. Definitely the best performance and on the most difficult instrument. I think that vibrato style is an artifact of both its time and the recording technology.
Perhaps biased, but clearly the tuba takes it. In a live performance, the size advantage gives it a (in my opinion) more accurate distinct “ox” like presence.
I like the Dark and heavy sound of #1 #2 is safer. not as dark its brighter than I think. # 3 a little better in color darker than #2. #4 is really musical sounds like a cello. Bravo. They all are played Beautifully and musically, I like number 1 the best!
Reformed tubist here - transferred to bassoon in my undergrad. Fossi on the F Tuba is playing so beautifully. I think his performance is perfect. Unfortunately, the accompanying voices in the low strings and bassoons are stomping all over those 1/8th notes. It sounds like the orchestra skipped this movement in rehearsals.
It's Gergiev, so they might just as well have skipped the rehearsals. I remember Speight Jenkins saying that he'd never heard an orchestra sound good when it was conducted by Gergiev.
Interesting, Mr Wallace! My advisor/teacher tried to convert me, also, in my undergrad years. Thankfully, I resisted and remain a tubist. However, I must disagree with the "stomping all over those 1/8th notes" comment. Ravel captured the feeling of a team of oxen dragging a heavily-laden, wooden-wheeled cart along a rutted, possibly muddy path. That is the color and intent of the rhythmic pattern underneath the groaning solo, whether played by euphonium, bass trombone, or tuba.
These are beautiful. Over the years I have played the piece three times, twice on euphonium and once on F tuba. The time with the tuba was much more thrilling...adrenaline rush, I suppose...
I liked the euphonium best, although he was a trombonist first or had started out as a euphoniumist but who lost his sense of the euphonium style. Then the F tuba. Wonderful, rich sound, but blends in to the texture so well that it becomes lost. Then the German baritone. Nice sound, but dry. Then the French tuba, a quivering bowl of Jell-O (TM). I also think they ALL didn’t play the legati well-they put space between the notes, which made their interpretations very dry.
Can I just point out that this is not really a comparison of instruments but a comparison of players? One of the main issues with all of these recordings is that #2 and 3 the Baritone and Euphonium (respectively) were played by trombonists and #4 the euphonium was played by the tuba player. If they actually hired a professional euphonium player to play this, there wouldn't be a question at all.
@@tubagabrii 1) Trombonists are not automatically qualified to play euphonium. There are many who are good at both, but that is not a universal. As someone who has played both for several decades, I can tell you that the type of air used and preferred sound quality for each is different. Just because they know which fingerings to press down and they use similar mouthpieces doesn't make them qualified or this an equal comparison 2) Orchestras can hire someone to come in. Listen to professional euphonium soloists or players in a military band and you will note they sound significantly better than the players in this video.
yes i know and i share you're idea. but i wanted to compare the most "usual ways" of playing the piece. As you can see the Berliner Philharmoniker (!!!) has opted for an internal instrumentalist, and like the berliner also many orchestras entrust the part to the trombonist or tuba of the orchestra.
Alessandro Fossi! If Alessandro Fossi plays the tuba bass, it is obvious that the performance is a masterpiece. Fossi is a true maestro of this fantastic instrument.
Interesting video and nice comments. Noone though seem to mention the consideration that on tuba chances of splitting notes are higher in this register so all the hair-splitting of colours are way less important comparing to that. Hell, unfortunately 99.5% of the audience wouldnt notice any difference in all these instruments
People have differing opinions on this matter: some consider the tonal differences between the F tuba and euphonium pronounced enough to take the risk of having more split notes (and some conductors don't even realize the issue to begin with), whereas some like you consider the tones similar enough to warrant using a euphonium for extra stability. There is no single correct answer here, only the agreement that the performer and conductor come to. I believe Arnold Jacobs was even famed for playing the solo on CC tuba, but he was on a different plane of existence from most tubists. :)
There are some very different playing styles making it a bit difficult to really compare instruments. For example, the third one was quite forceful and could almost have been direct by John Philip Sousa. Personally, I like the very mellow tuba versions that don't have any "brassiness" in their tone. I think it makes for a nice solo like the usually mellow sound of a French horn (or just "horn" for the purists) makes for good solos.
yeah, having a trombonist play the euphonium does create that issue, they end up fighting the instrument instead of working with it and create a lot of forced sound :/
Yeah, I understand about the euphonium one. It's the trombonist playing the euphonium only for this piece, so it sounds more like a trombone than an euphonium.
F tuba is the best sounding one of these 4 by a quite a long shot imo. It produces a, in my opinion, warmer sound the envelops the sound of the orchestra more. As well Alessandro Fossi is a very good player. I do have to agree with some other people in these comments though, as while the F tuba sound the best imo it can be very difficult to consistently play the high G sharps well and stylisticly. All the performances were great though!
Gabriele, a special thanks to you for helping me understand Bydlo and in the other video, Dies Iræ. The first time I heard bydlo (in this video), I did not understand it, but after listening to it and paying attention to it, it became the piece that I listened to all day and never stopped listening to it. I wanted to learn it on my instrument, and I even played it in my school, but bydlo had so much magic to enter me, it is inexplicable. I also like Dies Iræ, but I didn't understand it that much, until I found your videos, and my way of understanding music changed. Thank you Gabriele for your videos, I expect more from them, you are a great person for me.
I probably have a personal bias as a euphonium player, but here is my personal ranking. 1. Euphonium - I think it projects the best without being too direct of a sound. 2. F Tuba - while it sounds more full, it’s a bit too broad of a sound to cut through the orchestra as well in my opinion. 3. German Baritone - Similar to the Euphonium, but I think it’s a tad too direct for this solo. 4. French C Tuba - I know this is the original instrument the solo was written for, but I think it’s too direct in the recording on here. Edit: All of these instruments have dark sounds in my opinion but I’m more talking about the focus in each sound. Also, thank you for letting me know about an older recording. I didn’t know that recording existed, so I’ll probably listen to it in its entirety.
None of the above, they're all too beautiful. This is a straining ox! Sound best when played by an amateur on a big insturment who actually struggles to play the part and reach the high notes. That's the way I've always done it.
@@kathykapsner3897 Odd things happen! In college, my friends and roommates all played guitars. We'd sit around and play music and sing, but I couldn't seem to make the tuba or euphonium work in that situation. I bought a flute (Gemeinhardt 2SH) and life was good!
I probably like euphonium the best, after all that is the closest there's to a "Swiss/French/piccolo" tuba in C (Wessex still makes them, but by now they're a rare instrument). The modern "bass" tuba in F can approach this solo, expecially given the advancements in performing techniques, but being the euphonium in the best part of its range, I find it to project much better, and by consequence to be much better in making itself being heard above the rest of the orchestra.
Clearly number one is the most accomplished player. One thing I dislike is the exaggerated articulations - some are really staccato and pronounced. As a eupher I don’t like the nasally, straight orchestral sound so am going for the tuba.
Unfortunate to limit the performances to only those 4 with videos. Some might like our 1991 Atlanta Symphony recording with then-Music Director Yoel Levi. Bydlo was done in a single take. Instrument: extremely rare Schilke F, a horn I only use for that and "The Bear." At 11:00 on the track.
Do you remember what is the number model of the german baritone horn? I think its Alexander, but i dont know what model it is, and the original video was deleted.
F-tuba can play this part if good player used it. Eb- tuba maybe, CC and BBb are not useful for such passages. However Euph, baritone and French 6 valved C- euphonium are more regular historical. Ravel wrote for 6 valved C- euphonium, not for F- bass.
The last example -- obviously on the instrument that transcriber Ravel had in mind -- is the only one in which the player actually observes all the score's articulation and expression marks.
Agreed, although I don't care for the vibrato, it's a very nice performance. And this is the 6-valve C tuba Ravel had in mind. Christhard Gössling also sounds good. Super player.
I wish low instruments like the tuba get more love. Low instruments are capable of more than just playing low all the time. Only if people would pay attention to a low instrument’s beauty.
What is overlooked is that not every tubist gets up to the high g sharp so easily. Comparatively speaking, it is like the trumpet part in the 2nd Brandenburg. Not everyone can do it.
I may just be biased towards the Mariss Jansons/BRS recording cuz it’s my favorite recording of pictures, but i love how that euph player performed the solo, as well as the accompaniment not being too forward.
This is not the question of sounding well. Ravel may have put the theme for tuba because he wanted the tubist to suffer as much as the old cow drawing the cart full of stuff to the market (which is the meaning of the movement). I remember the story told by Slava Rostropovich. He helped Prokofiev orchestrating one of his pieces. Once Slava spotted the extremely low note at the trumpet part. He said: "Sergey Sergeevich, you may have made a mistake". Prokofiev answered: "It's all right. Just imagine the trumpeter's cheeks and red face when he plays the note!"
This was originally orchestrated for the French C Tuba. I'd say if you can't get yourself one of those, you could play that on the German Baritone and get close enough, but if you don't have one of those, hopefully you're good enough at F tuba to get those high notes. If you're not, I guess settle for euphonium.
Interesting debate on here and lots of great comments. For me this is the tip of two related icebergs that a good orchestral tuba player encounters: 1. Because the tuba (and it's precursors) evolved in parallel in different countries, how close the the instrument the composer would have expected should we go? Instruments vary from C (France), F (some German and some English), Eb (some other English), CC & BBb (some other German and most American) plus cimbasso (Italy) (of which modern 'cimbasso' models are a 'best guess' based on minimal historic artecfacts and records) and ophicleide (Mendelssohn and Berlioz). Should a tuba player have a fleet of instruments and use the one closest to something that's historically accurate? Should they have just a couple (something small and something large) that will do a good enough job for most stuff? Maybe they can only afford one instrument? 2. Bore inflation is a thing! What was considered a large bore brass instrument 50 or 60 years ago is simply average now (or maybe even small). Orchestral trombones have got bigger and fatter. You only need to compare a Holton TR185 bass trombone from the 1970s (as played by Frank Mathison on the first Star Wars movie) with a Rath R9 bass trombone of today to get the idea. No use playing the Rite of Spring on a small tuba (first performed in Paris, a small French C tuba is likely to have been used) if you're trying to balance with a 21st century wall of trumpet and trombone sound. For me, tuba choice has to be a section decision so it works best with what everyone else is playing. In terms of this solo, I'd be tempted to test out a small travel tuba in F so you get lightness of a smaller instrument but the strain of playing that high in the instrument's range (noting the reference to a straining ox in the picture). You may be surprised but I have used this tactic for the ophicleide part in Midsummer Night's Dream Overture (where there are no trombones so no need to blend with their sound) - with a surprised and very happy conductor.
The "travel tuba" idea is a brilliant one for achieving the compactness of sound while keeping the upper register fogginess! Seems like a good choice for cimbasso parts in Italian opera as well as opheclide as mentioned.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Thanks. I have a Wessex (Jinbao made I think) Cimbasso when needed but the travel tuba certainly worked a treat for an ophicleide part where there was no need to match trombone sound and volume.
As a bass-trombonist, I opine that the question posed does not elicit the right answers relative to the musical problem at hand. The better question would be: what is the tonal and emotional experience that I, the orchestral arranger of this piano work, wish to infuse in my listeners in order to make the them feel the ambiance, mood, and emotional overtones of the Bydlo painting obsevered? It is this musical portrayal of the ox cart in a muddy field with stormy, Spring skies, and the juxtaposition of the imagined, anthropomorphized, acceptance and surrender of the oxen to their prescribed agricultural role, in which the tonal aspiration of the Bydlo melody must be contemplated. Each one of the four interpretations yields a different experience of the pastral scene. I am not sure any draw me into the scene as captivatingly as I expect. I think the tonal and *textral contrast* between the melody in the C Tuba and rhythm and harmony in the string basses is key to getting the mood right. Of all the live interpretations I have witnessed heretofore (in major musical metropolises), I think Eugene Ormandy and his Philadelphia Orchestra came closest to portraying Bydlo most viscerally, most poignantly. And no one in my memory has delivered as haunting, as melancholic, as somber, as gloomy a melodic interpretation of Bydlo as Glenn Dodson did euphonium. His was the paragon portrayl.
I’m not a fan of the euph one. I feel like he starts so loud and stays that dynamic. Doesn’t give the impression that the cart is moving closer. And his sound is really bright? There are moments in the german baritone one that I think sounds more like a euph than his performamce.
El papel está escrito para bombardino (euphonium) así que lo debería de tocar un bombardinista. Para mi este punto es importantísimo, en la grabación lo toca un tombonista, un tubista, pero un bombardinista? Lo dudo. Partiendo de esta base es muy difícil hacer una comparativa. Para hacer una comparación real el mismo instrumentista debería de repetir ese fragmento musical con los diferentes instrumentos a comparar. Dicho esto, no me gusta ninguna de las versiones aquí grabadas, solamente por es sonido y el timbre se nota que ninguno estudia el bombardino (euphonium)
It’s either the tuba or the German baritone horn for me for the best take. The euphonium just doesn’t suit it, too bright for it. The tuba and baritone horn are wonderfully dark and soft sounds perfect for the style of the piece
@@Mad5coutfourth one isn't on euphonium, it's on the original instrument, C french Tuba, and I assume the tubist made the whole piece with that instrument so it's obvious he should be playing it. Honestly both trombonist and tubist can sound great on euphonium, but they don't have to and so often it happens they don't.
Even as a euphonium player (who knows this excerpt quite well), the F tuba wins the day, for certain. The euphonium and saxhorn (French C tuba) were not being played by euph players, and had intonation issues (the G# was pinched and a tad sharp), and the Wagner tuba just sounded puny.
Para mí la versión del bombardino, le pilla ideal en tesitura, y es un instrumento más profundo que los otros 2, la tuba en fa (o bombardón) queda más forzado.
Judging by the other comments I'm in the minority for this, but I loved the vibrato in the last clip. So authentically French. Of course it's a Russian piece only orchestrated by a Frenchman, but if you listen to old recordings of Russian orchestras they have a similar approach to brass solo vibrato. I personally don't care for the F tuba sound on this as much as euphonium or the real deal French tuba. I'd prefer a darker euphonium sound than that one though.
A Euphonium (primary) player or a Tubist. Using a trombonist (either on trombone or euphonium) simply isn’t the answer - simply too much edge for the passage.
F tuba my favorite. I love the ethereal quality. I've also heard it live on F tuba with similar results. The German baritone is a close second. The euphoniums have too much of a trombone timbre.
that's most likely because most of the time trombone players play that part. And they blow too much 'through' the instrument instead of filling it up like real euphonium players do, so their sound is always very bright.
Is it possible that the 4th performance was on French tuba and not a euphonium? If you've ever heard Pictures played with a French tuba, it will explain the part a lot. My teacher (in a top 5 American orchestra) said he was happy to let one of the trombone players have the part but played it himself many times. He always used a 6/4 American tuba but that's just what you did back in those days.
Not is a French tuba. In those years was the common tuba used in French, watch the 3+3 pistons (on the right). Watch the entire performance using the link in description
He didn't. The orchestrated it for C french Tuba, the last instrument in this video. It's a peculiar instrument which is very rarely seen today, pitched a whole step above the euphonium, but having 6 pistons to reach an on tune lower range
Bydlo is a piece that doesn't have to sound delicate, nice (that is, it has to sound like that) but I mean that you have to play it thinking about the cart, the steps of the animal, thinking it as robust, just like Hansjorg did, it sounds good detailed in the first 2 bars.
@@tubagabrii bro, I've been thinking about the trombone solo of the ravel bolero and the French horn solo in bramhs 3. But it doesn't convince me much.
It was a true baritone, not a Wagner tuba. In other words, it is a primarily cylindrical bore instrument (which is why the tubing in the body looks smaller and more loosely wrapped), rather than conical like a euphonium.
@@euphinism1 You're correct. The Bb Wagner tuba is a 5th below the French horn and the F Wagner tuba is an octave below and are played by French horn players. Also notice that the Wagner tubas are fingered using the left hand because of this, whereas the rest of the brass family uses the right hand.
I am a tuba player and I think the euphonium is the best choice for this solo. We are all used to hearing the thin, strained sound of the tuba's high register on this solo and the guy in the video plays it perfectly. But, the risk is high. Many tuba players have slipped here and ruined their careers and reputations (not me, fortunately). One famous professional in New York used to have it written into his contracts that he would not have to play this solo. The risk is not necessary when the solo sounds so good on the euphonium, an instrument whose range suits it much better.
I completely disagree. Bydlo is not even that difficult of a solo compare to what other brass instruments have to handle, refusing to play the most famous and prominent solo on your instrument js ridiculous. It’s like a trumpet player saying they wouldn’t play Mahler 3 post horn solo/alpine symphony/Mahler 7, a trombone player saying they wouldn’t play bolero/mahler3 or a horn player saying they wouldn’t play Dvorak9.
In addition musically speaking, a “strained” sound most definitely would better represent a ox car pulling cargos in the mud. That’s what emphasizes the struggle which the ox is in.
@@dingrobin7924the argument comes from the fact that the piece was not orchestrated to be played on a modern bass tuba in F, but a French tuba in C, one step above a euphonium.
French tuba wins!
Tf didn't know tuba can play so high with such a nice tone. It sounded like a euphonium.
Yes, tuba is the best❤😆
Same I thought it was a euphonium at first and they showed it was tuba never knew they could go that high
It’s also hard Afro play that high and clean
The tuba being is in the key of F, it helps to play in the high register
I thought it was a french horn at first
3:42 damn never knew Gustav Mahler could play the Euphonium so well!
WTF?! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
@@tubagabrii hahahaha cannot unsee
@@theafellacomposer He's got some new glasses, I see!
I vote for number one. That big horn's fat, veiled tone is perfect. Lovely sound!
By far the F tuba for me. IMO the most interesting and colorful choice here, even if this wasn't composed for it. As the solo describes a very big and ordinary thing, having a very cumbersome instrument which plays it an unusual/clumsy register is both a very good description and a quite ear-catching rendition. Other instruments, when playing the solo, tend to be in their best register, which makes the solo sound very "easy" and not heavy, or even lyrical, which is not the point at all. Also, I feel like the F tuba really does "moo" like a cow on those high fifths, but maybe that's just me.
I feel that Ravel's choice was simply to use the lowest instrument he had available at the time, but maybe if had the F tuba as a choice he would have opted for it. After all, Ravel is know for using extreme instrument registers to obtain certain unusual colors.
Also Ravel will have had access to a full compliment of modern brass as he lived in the early half of the 20th Century and did much of his composing and arrainging in that time.
Which one is the F tuba? The first one?
I agree with you. I love the velvety depth of the F tuba and prefer it. It sounds to me the most like an oxcart and the most Russian, but I must admit the pungency of French tuba (likely the instrument Ravel had in his ear) is fasinating. It's interesting knowing that the most famous orchestration of a very distinctly Russian piano work is a very distinctly French one. Knowing the mutual admiration French and Russian composers often had for each other's music, it isn't at all surprising.
I wouldn't consider even the euphonium to be in its "best register" on the high G# slurs, but I certainly am drawn to the "woofy" quality of the high notes on F tuba and its general heaviness of character.
@@Teladian2 The instrument Ravel was writing for was closer to a modern euphonium than to a modern tuba.
For me, the tuba sounds the best. Not only in color, but in tempo. Everyone else seems to rush it. I’m also not a fan of the vibrato on the B&W vid.
I agree with this. I think the solo can be lovely on a euphonium, but of these four, the solo on tuba was by far the best purely on the basis of the tuba player was actually in time. The modern recording with period instruments (the second recording) had a particularly rushed solo
I noticed that, too. He was right on the money. Definitely the best performance and on the most difficult instrument. I think that vibrato style is an artifact of both its time and the recording technology.
The german baritone sounds beautiful and perfect.
Yessss this. It should be a struggle, like the picture it represents
Tuba for me. This was beautiful.
Perhaps biased, but clearly the tuba takes it. In a live performance, the size advantage gives it a (in my opinion) more accurate distinct “ox” like presence.
I like the Dark and heavy sound of #1
#2 is safer. not as dark its brighter than I think. # 3 a little better in color darker than #2. #4 is really musical sounds like a cello. Bravo. They all are played Beautifully and musically, I like number 1 the best!
Reformed tubist here - transferred to bassoon in my undergrad. Fossi on the F Tuba is playing so beautifully. I think his performance is perfect. Unfortunately, the accompanying voices in the low strings and bassoons are stomping all over those 1/8th notes. It sounds like the orchestra skipped this movement in rehearsals.
I actually like how they're accompanying him - adds to the strained rustic vibe of the piece.
It's Gergiev, so they might just as well have skipped the rehearsals. I remember Speight Jenkins saying that he'd never heard an orchestra sound good when it was conducted by Gergiev.
Interesting, Mr Wallace! My advisor/teacher tried to convert me, also, in my undergrad years. Thankfully, I resisted and remain a tubist. However, I must disagree with the "stomping all over those 1/8th notes" comment. Ravel captured the feeling of a team of oxen dragging a heavily-laden, wooden-wheeled cart along a rutted, possibly muddy path. That is the color and intent of the rhythmic pattern underneath the groaning solo, whether played by euphonium, bass trombone, or tuba.
The tinge of eastern / oriental Russian on the Wagner horn is fantastic!!! No way in hell me and my 6/4 gonna play that!!!!
Я украинец. На нашем языке, "Bydlo" означает "тяговый скот, или волы". В переносном смысле - необразованный рабочий народ, подобно "rednecks" в США.
These are beautiful. Over the years I have played the piece three times, twice on euphonium and once on F tuba. The time with the tuba was much more thrilling...adrenaline rush, I suppose...
I liked the euphonium best, although he was a trombonist first or had started out as a euphoniumist but who lost his sense of the euphonium style.
Then the F tuba. Wonderful, rich sound, but blends in to the texture so well that it becomes lost.
Then the German baritone. Nice sound, but dry.
Then the French tuba, a quivering bowl of Jell-O (TM).
I also think they ALL didn’t play the legati well-they put space between the notes, which made their interpretations very dry.
Can I just point out that this is not really a comparison of instruments but a comparison of players? One of the main issues with all of these recordings is that #2 and 3 the Baritone and Euphonium (respectively) were played by trombonists and #4 the euphonium was played by the tuba player. If they actually hired a professional euphonium player to play this, there wouldn't be a question at all.
yes, but bydlo is always played in orchestra and the euphonium is played by trombonist
@@tubagabrii 1) Trombonists are not automatically qualified to play euphonium. There are many who are good at both, but that is not a universal. As someone who has played both for several decades, I can tell you that the type of air used and preferred sound quality for each is different. Just because they know which fingerings to press down and they use similar mouthpieces doesn't make them qualified or this an equal comparison 2) Orchestras can hire someone to come in. Listen to professional euphonium soloists or players in a military band and you will note they sound significantly better than the players in this video.
yes i know and i share you're idea. but i wanted to compare the most "usual ways" of playing the piece. As you can see the Berliner Philharmoniker (!!!) has opted for an internal instrumentalist, and like the berliner also many orchestras entrust the part to the trombonist or tuba of the orchestra.
True. Most orchestras can't/ won't spring for the money!
@@euphinism1 They'll drop 10x as much on a violinist or soprano solist.
Alessandro Fossi! If Alessandro Fossi plays the tuba bass, it is obvious that the performance is a masterpiece. Fossi is a true maestro of this fantastic instrument.
Yes! Great tuba player
Interesting video and nice comments. Noone though seem to mention the consideration that on tuba chances of splitting notes are higher in this register so all the hair-splitting of colours are way less important comparing to that.
Hell, unfortunately 99.5% of the audience wouldnt notice any difference in all these instruments
People have differing opinions on this matter: some consider the tonal differences between the F tuba and euphonium pronounced enough to take the risk of having more split notes (and some conductors don't even realize the issue to begin with), whereas some like you consider the tones similar enough to warrant using a euphonium for extra stability. There is no single correct answer here, only the agreement that the performer and conductor come to. I believe Arnold Jacobs was even famed for playing the solo on CC tuba, but he was on a different plane of existence from most tubists. :)
There are some very different playing styles making it a bit difficult to really compare instruments. For example, the third one was quite forceful and could almost have been direct by John Philip Sousa. Personally, I like the very mellow tuba versions that don't have any "brassiness" in their tone. I think it makes for a nice solo like the usually mellow sound of a French horn (or just "horn" for the purists) makes for good solos.
yeah, having a trombonist play the euphonium does create that issue, they end up fighting the instrument instead of working with it and create a lot of forced sound :/
Yeah, I understand about the euphonium one. It's the trombonist playing the euphonium only for this piece, so it sounds more like a trombone than an euphonium.
German Tenor horn. French C has notorious intonation problems. F Tuba, good but don't have an off day!
It’s easy
The first G# was painful.
The euphonium player sounds like a trombonist playing euphonium unfortunately
Jason Costello Interesting. Curious why...
Which is what it is. Reedy sound.
I think that is the usual situation.
F tuba is the best sounding one of these 4 by a quite a long shot imo. It produces a, in my opinion, warmer sound the envelops the sound of the orchestra more. As well Alessandro Fossi is a very good player. I do have to agree with some other people in these comments though, as while the F tuba sound the best imo it can be very difficult to consistently play the high G sharps well and stylisticly. All the performances were great though!
Gabriele, a special thanks to you for helping me understand Bydlo and in the other video, Dies Iræ. The first time I heard bydlo (in this video), I did not understand it, but after listening to it and paying attention to it, it became the piece that I listened to all day and never stopped listening to it. I wanted to learn it on my instrument, and I even played it in my school, but bydlo had so much magic to enter me, it is inexplicable. I also like Dies Iræ, but I didn't understand it that much, until I found your videos, and my way of understanding music changed. Thank you Gabriele for your videos, I expect more from them, you are a great person for me.
Wow, many thanks. I am really happy that my videos helped you❤❤ Hope to be alway helpful, I wish you a beautiful and rich musical journey
@@tubagabrii Yes, your videos always help me in lots of things! Thanks Gabriele!
I often wonder what composers such as Bach would have achieved if they had had such instruments and the capabilities of the player.
Bass tuba, by far. No comparison.
I probably have a personal bias as a euphonium player, but here is my personal ranking.
1. Euphonium - I think it projects the best without being too direct of a sound.
2. F Tuba - while it sounds more full, it’s a bit too broad of a sound to cut through the orchestra as well in my opinion.
3. German Baritone - Similar to the Euphonium, but I think it’s a tad too direct for this solo.
4. French C Tuba - I know this is the original instrument the solo was written for, but I think it’s too direct in the recording on here.
Edit: All of these instruments have dark sounds in my opinion but I’m more talking about the focus in each sound. Also, thank you for letting me know about an older recording. I didn’t know that recording existed, so I’ll probably listen to it in its entirety.
This is the only correct answer.
I like the euphonium for it, but the player in the video, i didn't really understand as much. I felt he played far too brightly and too pointed
They aren't actually euphonium players is the problem.
None of the above, they're all too beautiful. This is a straining ox! Sound best when played by an amateur on a big insturment who actually struggles to play the part and reach the high notes. That's the way I've always done it.
Me too, except when I did it, the euph and the tuba were both a strain. LOL
Great comment! As a flute player who has recently taken up the baritone (community band level), I really got a laugh out of this comment.
@@kathykapsner3897 Odd things happen! In college, my friends and roommates all played guitars. We'd sit around and play music and sing, but I couldn't seem to make the tuba or euphonium work in that situation. I bought a flute (Gemeinhardt 2SH) and life was good!
I probably like euphonium the best, after all that is the closest there's to a "Swiss/French/piccolo" tuba in C (Wessex still makes them, but by now they're a rare instrument). The modern "bass" tuba in F can approach this solo, expecially given the advancements in performing techniques, but being the euphonium in the best part of its range, I find it to project much better, and by consequence to be much better in making itself being heard above the rest of the orchestra.
Well, of all 4 instruments featured in this video, the French tuba in C is closest to a French tuba in C...
@@RetiredBrass I meant, among nowadays' most widespred instruments.
@@TenorCantusFirmus In that case, I agree.
One Oktave deeper!!!
Tu + CFg + Timp + Cassa
Bulls don’t sing Mozart and don’t dance Ballett.
Even Ravel lacks!!!
Clearly number one is the most accomplished player. One thing I dislike is the exaggerated articulations - some are really staccato and pronounced. As a eupher I don’t like the nasally, straight orchestral sound so am going for the tuba.
As nice as the tuba solo was, I still like the clarity of the euphonium and baritone as that is more suited for their register
the f tuba is basically a euphonium and a tuba
@@superkarifragilistic What?
@@zachp.3509 F tubas are made for melodies
Unfortunate to limit the performances to only those 4 with videos. Some might like our 1991 Atlanta Symphony recording with then-Music Director Yoel Levi. Bydlo was done in a single take. Instrument: extremely rare Schilke F, a horn I only use for that and "The Bear." At 11:00 on the track.
Do you remember what is the number model of the german baritone horn? I think its Alexander, but i dont know what model it is, and the original video was deleted.
Sorry i don't know
@@tubagabrii no problem!!!
F-tuba can play this part if good player used it. Eb- tuba maybe, CC and BBb are not useful for such passages. However Euph, baritone and French 6 valved C- euphonium are more regular historical. Ravel wrote for 6 valved C- euphonium, not for F- bass.
The last example -- obviously on the instrument that transcriber Ravel had in mind -- is the only one in which the player actually observes all the score's articulation and expression marks.
Agreed, although I don't care for the vibrato, it's a very nice performance. And this is the 6-valve C tuba Ravel had in mind. Christhard Gössling also sounds good. Super player.
I wish low instruments like the tuba get more love. Low instruments are capable of more than just playing low all the time. Only if people would pay attention to a low instrument’s beauty.
I wish it too. Hope to be helpful with my videos
What is overlooked is that not every tubist gets up to the high g sharp so easily. Comparatively speaking, it is like the trumpet part in the 2nd Brandenburg. Not everyone can do it.
Not such a horror story on the F tuba. CC or BBb? Absolutely!
Alessandro Fossi rules
I miss the french C tuba 💔
Euphonium and German Baritone were best; French's tuba is also interesting option
Imagine Bydlo being played on a instrument like the bassoon. It would sound beautiful.
May be, but for me tuba is better
Are you bassonists?
@@forveillelier No, not even close. I’m a bassoon fan
@@ariannagorbet6674 i am french hornist. And I practicing Bydlo. I think it can sound beatiful.
@@forveillelier Nice
German baritone horn and euphonium were the best ones for me 😊
I'm probably biased given I play the tuba but the tuba version was the best.
All very beautiful! Personally, I like the F Tuba best, it has such a big sound which allows each note to blend into the next.
I may just be biased towards the Mariss Jansons/BRS recording cuz it’s my favorite recording of pictures, but i love how that euph player performed the solo, as well as the accompaniment not being too forward.
It seems to me the solist is a bit out of breath. (taking a deep breath just before break 2 and before break 5)
Tuba/d I can't tell or follow all of the distinctions between all of these instruments.
Why can't the euph player in the third clip play for more than two bars without breathing?! The tone is nice, but his terrible phrasing ruins it.
good question
This is not the question of sounding well. Ravel may have put the theme for tuba because he wanted the tubist to suffer as much as the old cow drawing the cart full of stuff to the market (which is the meaning of the movement).
I remember the story told by Slava Rostropovich. He helped Prokofiev orchestrating one of his pieces. Once Slava spotted the extremely low note at the trumpet part. He said: "Sergey Sergeevich, you may have made a mistake". Prokofiev answered: "It's all right. Just imagine the trumpeter's cheeks and red face when he plays the note!"
Ravel wrote it for the French C Tuba(the one used in the 4th) which is closer to a modern Euphonium
Thanks for putting this together. I love how rich the F Tuba sounds next to the others. It would be my choice as a music director.
“Clearly the best instrument to play Bydlo is my primary instrument.”
I always liked hearing this playing on Euphonium. :)
My question is: how can these tremendous musicians play around some of these conductors?
It's best not to look at them sometimes
French C tuba all the way! Why not ophicleide? That would have a more eerie, distant, ox cart sound.
Was this piece of music played by someone using a bass saxophone?
Goes to show that each instrument has it's own sound. Even if they're playing the same passage.
This was originally orchestrated for the French C Tuba. I'd say if you can't get yourself one of those, you could play that on the German Baritone and get close enough, but if you don't have one of those, hopefully you're good enough at F tuba to get those high notes. If you're not, I guess settle for euphonium.
Muito bonito ver como um trecho pode ser tocado em várias formas diferentes.
Interesting debate on here and lots of great comments.
For me this is the tip of two related icebergs that a good orchestral tuba player encounters:
1. Because the tuba (and it's precursors) evolved in parallel in different countries, how close the the instrument the composer would have expected should we go? Instruments vary from C (France), F (some German and some English), Eb (some other English), CC & BBb (some other German and most American) plus cimbasso (Italy) (of which modern 'cimbasso' models are a 'best guess' based on minimal historic artecfacts and records) and ophicleide (Mendelssohn and Berlioz). Should a tuba player have a fleet of instruments and use the one closest to something that's historically accurate? Should they have just a couple (something small and something large) that will do a good enough job for most stuff? Maybe they can only afford one instrument?
2. Bore inflation is a thing! What was considered a large bore brass instrument 50 or 60 years ago is simply average now (or maybe even small). Orchestral trombones have got bigger and fatter. You only need to compare a Holton TR185 bass trombone from the 1970s (as played by Frank Mathison on the first Star Wars movie) with a Rath R9 bass trombone of today to get the idea. No use playing the Rite of Spring on a small tuba (first performed in Paris, a small French C tuba is likely to have been used) if you're trying to balance with a 21st century wall of trumpet and trombone sound.
For me, tuba choice has to be a section decision so it works best with what everyone else is playing.
In terms of this solo, I'd be tempted to test out a small travel tuba in F so you get lightness of a smaller instrument but the strain of playing that high in the instrument's range (noting the reference to a straining ox in the picture). You may be surprised but I have used this tactic for the ophicleide part in Midsummer Night's Dream Overture (where there are no trombones so no need to blend with their sound) - with a surprised and very happy conductor.
The "travel tuba" idea is a brilliant one for achieving the compactness of sound while keeping the upper register fogginess! Seems like a good choice for cimbasso parts in Italian opera as well as opheclide as mentioned.
@@SamuelPlaysBrass Thanks. I have a Wessex (Jinbao made I think) Cimbasso when needed but the travel tuba certainly worked a treat for an ophicleide part where there was no need to match trombone sound and volume.
As a bass-trombonist, I opine that the question posed does not elicit the right answers relative to the musical problem at hand. The better question would be: what is the tonal and emotional experience that I, the orchestral arranger of this piano work, wish to infuse in my listeners in order to make the them feel the ambiance, mood, and emotional overtones of the Bydlo painting obsevered? It is this musical portrayal of the ox cart in a muddy field with stormy, Spring skies, and the juxtaposition of the imagined, anthropomorphized, acceptance and surrender of the oxen to their prescribed agricultural role, in which the tonal aspiration of the Bydlo melody must be contemplated. Each one of the four interpretations yields a different experience of the pastral scene. I am not sure any draw me into the scene as captivatingly as I expect. I think the tonal and *textral contrast* between the melody in the C Tuba and rhythm and harmony in the string basses is key to getting the mood right. Of all the live interpretations I have witnessed heretofore (in major musical metropolises), I think Eugene Ormandy and his Philadelphia Orchestra came closest to portraying Bydlo most viscerally, most poignantly. And no one in my memory has delivered as haunting, as melancholic, as somber, as gloomy a melodic interpretation of Bydlo as Glenn Dodson did euphonium. His was the paragon portrayl.
I’m not a fan of the euph one. I feel like he starts so loud and stays that dynamic. Doesn’t give the impression that the cart is moving closer. And his sound is really bright? There are moments in the german baritone one that I think sounds more like a euph than his performamce.
Probably because its a mainly trombone player
El papel está escrito para bombardino (euphonium) así que lo debería de tocar un bombardinista. Para mi este punto es importantísimo, en la grabación lo toca un tombonista, un tubista, pero un bombardinista? Lo dudo.
Partiendo de esta base es muy difícil hacer una comparativa.
Para hacer una comparación real el mismo instrumentista debería de repetir ese fragmento musical con los diferentes instrumentos a comparar.
Dicho esto, no me gusta ninguna de las versiones aquí grabadas, solamente por es sonido y el timbre se nota que ninguno estudia el bombardino (euphonium)
I think Euphonium is best in general, but I think the tone of the player in the video was way too sharp.
Because HansJorg is trombonist.
Christard too
@@claudialier1199 Yeah, sometimes I wish they would hire actual euphonium players for parts like these.
I prefer a tuba or euphonium on this. :)
I wish you labelled them.
It’s either the tuba or the German baritone horn for me for the best take. The euphonium just doesn’t suit it, too bright for it. The tuba and baritone horn are wonderfully dark and soft sounds perfect for the style of the piece
It's because the euphoniums were played by a bass trombonist and a tuba player. blech.
The baritone as an instrument is brighter then the euphonium, in this case it's mostly a matter of player
@@Mad5coutfourth one isn't on euphonium, it's on the original instrument, C french Tuba, and I assume the tubist made the whole piece with that instrument so it's obvious he should be playing it. Honestly both trombonist and tubist can sound great on euphonium, but they don't have to and so often it happens they don't.
Even as a euphonium player (who knows this excerpt quite well), the F tuba wins the day, for certain. The euphonium and saxhorn (French C tuba) were not being played by euph players, and had intonation issues (the G# was pinched and a tad sharp), and the Wagner tuba just sounded puny.
Just so you know. That’s not a Wagner tuba. Mouthpiece is way too big. That’s a German baritone.
@@kevinsolis7862 Thanknyou
@@kevinsolis7862 Thanks for clearance! I also thought about the lower of the 2 Wagner tubas...
When you want to give an "expert" comment but don't even know what's a Wagnertuba and what's a German Tenorhorn (or Bariton if you like)
Wagner tuba bell also points to the right (not to the left), same as the horn.
Para mí la versión del bombardino, le pilla ideal en tesitura, y es un instrumento más profundo que los otros 2, la tuba en fa (o bombardón) queda más forzado.
f tuba is the best sounding tuba
The second was perfect and the last one was perfect and elegant.
I’d be interested to hear this solo played on one of those euphonium sized F Tubas
Judging by the other comments I'm in the minority for this, but I loved the vibrato in the last clip. So authentically French. Of course it's a Russian piece only orchestrated by a Frenchman, but if you listen to old recordings of Russian orchestras they have a similar approach to brass solo vibrato.
I personally don't care for the F tuba sound on this as much as euphonium or the real deal French tuba. I'd prefer a darker euphonium sound than that one though.
Thanks for your commment, I really appreciated it. Very interesting
P.S. Ninetales is beautiful ahah
All great performances but the 2nd one does it for me. The tone is just a bit more forward than the F tuba or euph.
A Euphonium (primary) player or a Tubist. Using a trombonist (either on trombone or euphonium) simply isn’t the answer - simply too much edge for the passage.
Thank you for this video. Great idea!
Many thanks! Hope to make interesting videos. Enjoy the other videos if you want
F tuba my favorite. I love the ethereal quality. I've also heard it live on F tuba with similar results. The German baritone is a close second. The euphoniums have too much of a trombone timbre.
Maybe he used trombone mouthpiece on the euphonium.
that's most likely because most of the time trombone players play that part. And they blow too much 'through' the instrument instead of filling it up like real euphonium players do, so their sound is always very bright.
Tuba sounds like ppp
Good post!
Is it possible that the 4th performance was on French tuba and not a euphonium? If you've ever heard Pictures played with a French tuba, it will explain the part a lot. My teacher (in a top 5 American orchestra) said he was happy to let one of the trombone players have the part but played it himself many times. He always used a 6/4 American tuba but that's just what you did back in those days.
Not is a French tuba. In those years was the common tuba used in French, watch the 3+3 pistons (on the right). Watch the entire performance using the link in description
I’m a clarinetist what am I doing here
The tuba attracts everyone ahahahahah
Gabriele_D. I was actually here for the German Baritone Horn
@@penguinexpress12 nice instrument too
Gabriele_D. Nah just kidding I was here for the Bydlo
@@penguinexpress12 ahahahahahah ok
i like this music
F tuba for me.
f tuba is the best. by faaaarrr
Sureee!!
Euphonium top ❤️
Here is my ranking
1.Euphonium
2.F Tuba
3.French C Tuba
4.Baritone Horn
Pretty similar to my ranking, but I swapped the bottom. I do see the merit in having the French C Tuba though
Originally Ravel arranged this movement for F Tube, but personally I think sounds much colorful, balanced and clear with the german baritone horne.
He didn't. The orchestrated it for C french Tuba, the last instrument in this video. It's a peculiar instrument which is very rarely seen today, pitched a whole step above the euphonium, but having 6 pistons to reach an on tune lower range
Bravo bravo❤❤
Alessandro fossi numero 1 in assoluto
Eh già!
Fossi rules 👌
The tuba sounds best
Euphonium top
Bydlo is a piece that doesn't have to sound delicate, nice (that is, it has to sound like that) but I mean that you have to play it thinking about the cart, the steps of the animal, thinking it as robust, just like Hansjorg did, it sounds good detailed in the first 2 bars.
Perfect idea!! Playing bydlo is evoke this poor cow into the mud...
@@tubagabrii Exactly!
這裏馬上就聽得出華格納大號和普通大號的音質！！
Gergiev, whose Crimea?
euph is my favorite
Not exactly a very fair comparison, as the last recording is much older than the others.
I know, but this is the only recording I have found
4:44 the vibrato is ridiculous
vibrato old style ahahahah
It was the style at the time, that has changed. The Sound of the instrument though is the right one.
More videos of comparing!
If you want suggest some excerpts to compare
@@tubagabrii bro, I've been thinking about the trombone solo of the ravel bolero and the French horn solo in bramhs 3. But it doesn't convince me much.
@@tubagabrii yes please more videos of comparing!
@@claudialier1199 please wait, i take a break until august because i'm preparing my graduation
最初チューバでやってたね
凄い！
The hecks a french tuba
Performing this on a tuba is sacrilegious. Euphonium is the only option
Baritone best
Maybe I'm incorrect but I thought sure the second one was a Wagner tuba. Anyway. That's the one that sounded the best to me. It Sounded very sweet.
It was a true baritone, not a Wagner tuba. In other words, it is a primarily cylindrical bore instrument (which is why the tubing in the body looks smaller and more loosely wrapped), rather than conical like a euphonium.
I think the Wagner tuba is a type of French horn, not so much a real tuba...
ua-cam.com/video/BNcajRV4sfc/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/BNcajRV4sfc/v-deo.html
@@euphinism1 You're correct. The Bb Wagner tuba is a 5th below the French horn and the F Wagner tuba is an octave below and are played by French horn players. Also notice that the Wagner tubas are fingered using the left hand because of this, whereas the rest of the brass family uses the right hand.