Basically yeah, I'm an osu! player and i dont think there's a way that someone (some people at least) with zero skills in osu could ever reach merami, whitecat or vaxei level of skill by just training even for 10+ years of training, those people i mentioned are almost inhuman tbh, the pace they improve on the game from an average player to borderline not human is absurdly fast, and i think genetics plays a big role for that, they're like built to demolish the game i consider myself improving pretty fast but i can't even think reaching near that level of skill even with years of training, maybe yeah you can reach 3 digits if you really serious and averaging on 5000 plays per month but reaching top 10, no, even reaching top 25 or 50 would be a herculean feat The point is, dont be to obsessed to be become the best, you could try but dont become nailed to that aspect of the game, osu or any other rythm game is a fun and satisfying type of game, especially when you realize your improvement like for example FCing a map you couldn't even pass a month ago, have fun
I'm waiting for a pp mapper to make a map but the song is an actual ringtone, and proceed to get it ranked. Would be the most meta thing to ever happen in osu.
If there was a rythm game about dishwashing, you'd be the top player at it, and when the time comes, I'll remember you, and you can give me a shout out.
I wish that was true but its wrong to believe that everyone starts at the same level. If i put 100 people playing osu!mania who all never played it before i already would expect some of them to perform a lot stronger than the others
@@Rose_Emp No. Well yes. But there's more to it than that. Genetics play a role in everything. It defines your limit, It defines your improvement rate, it defines your susceptibility to injuries, it defines your reaction time (reactive and responsive), it defines your physical traits, it defines your mental (Also the environment you grew up in plays a role here) it defines part of your personality (compulsive, passive, aggressive) it defines literally anything. You can be born without an arm and that would be genetics
hard pill for most to swallow: Some are born “gifted” while others are not. Even then, those whom are born “gifted” still have to grind to get at the top, same goes for those whom aren’t gifted, however i’d argue they’d have to spend more time than the gifted person
Honestly, I feel it's a lot more impressive if an expert player got to their skill level through years of effort rather than being naturally hyper-talented and getting there in a much shorter time than usual.
One thing I don’t hear a lot in discussions of “genetics vs hard work” is this thought, “Do genetics predispose someone to having a better work ethic?”
I think for most normal people the most important factor is actually *how much time you are allowed to practice* Starting from a young age is advantegeous, but not all parents allow their kids to play games for a long time, let alone buying controllers for a specific game or going to arcade frequently And later in the life there are more and more things that occupy your time from practicing
Like he briefly mentioned the mental side matters a lot and people don't pay enough attention to it (most don't at all tbh). I'm pretty sure it matters way more than genetics especially if you are a beginner or even an average player. People definitely should believe in themselves more and not be lazy to experiment with play styles. There are other things too like having a consistent sleeping schedule eating healthy or not exercising etc all of this affects improvement at anything I think one more important thing that people don't pay enough attention to is warming up properly
If u wanna improve at something the key isnt necesarily to play it 5hours a day its more to keep it consistent for years maybe even 30mins a day can make u become really good if given enough time and then add in all off what you said. Edit: also wanna add that enjoying the game is the most important thing when i'm having fun playing a game u get reckless improvement speeds without realising it .
@@apocalypseap huh? He's not setting out to quantify it though. The question is, "do genetics help with rhythm games?" Not, "exactly how much do genetics help with rhythm games?" Anyways, there is literally no one on the planet who knows the answer to that second question since there is almost no research on the subject. The point is that yes, obviously genetics help, but not really enough to prevent you from becoming a top player.
@@EtienneYT Easy to say the cliche dismissive statement, harder to prove that I actually didn't understand it. Some people will never be "top players" of many games no matter how hard they try, so it's probably a waste of time for them to try, when they would be better suited to something else.
I feel like genetics matters the most not when it comes to improving, but when it comes to your health. Some people can play osu for 8+ hours a day for years with no problems meanwhile other people get hand pain/develop more serious problems while playing a lot less... And sadly, that is mostly genetics. It doesn't matter how hard you can work to achieve what you want when you develop strong pains/carpal tunnel/RSI along the way simply because of genetics.
How long you can play osu! for isn’t genetics. It’s improper form. Some people death grip their pen (I’m guilty of this) and it drastically shortens how long you can play for before experiencing pain. In terms of stream players the angle they have their hand at can determine how long they can comfortably play for. There’s been a gazillion studies on that concept for office workers and RSI. People are really quick to blame genetics for stuff that it really doesn’t apply much to. Unsurprisingly the difference between people freaking wrists is relatively minute.
Of course there will always be someone who can improve way faster than you and just skyrocket to the top of the leaderboards, but that's no reason to quit. As long as you can find the answer to "how can I improve at this game?" Then you can keep practicing become incredibly good from your own effort.
"Genetics" that word is triggering when it comes to rhythm games. I feel like it is an excuse for lazy people to use as to why they aren't improving as much. So many factors contribute to improvement so basing improvement solely because of genetics or how far someone has pushed the skill level is unreliable. I guess a better word for genetics is talent. Vaxei was certainly talented, but why do people seem to forget his play history graph on his osu! profile, the fact that he was so young, and the way he played???
I think you’re overgeneralizing. Not everyone who complains about genetics is too lazy to improve. For example, I’ve spent a ton of time trying to train myself to be able to singletap 220 bpm in osu, and while I’m making progress, it’s very slow. Meanwhile, I know people who are much lower ranked than me and even people who don’t play the game who can singletap faster than me just by default. That is undoubtedly a genetics thing and it’s incredibly frustrating knowing I have to work much harder to make my fingers move faster.
My favorite point in this video that I think is so important is that just because you aren't naturally talented at one skillset doesn't mean you are a lost cause. Try all of the possible ways to play rhythm games, and find something that you can do well. Everyone can do something well. Very VERY good video!
I would honestly say it's probably not so much genetics as much as it *may* be upbringing. Let's be real here; not everyone is born into a family that may or may not end up living near "the right" rhythm gaming locations/subcommunities, nor is everyone born into a family that may or may not end up being supportive of their childrens' choice of getting into dance games as part of their lives. It's not a concrete, set-in-stone, or guaranteed thing. We can all make do with what we end up having when we each first discover the world of dance games (and the dance game community), but realistically we can only shape our life circumstances so much. I think at the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not what you're born into & what you grow up with just so happens to work in your favor if/when you get into rhythm gaming.
Easiest way to improve: Dont overthink everything. It happends to me all the time but then i always remember to take a break, play something else or do some sports and keep your mind fresh! You dont need genetics mate, just a good motivation :)
a factor I'd like to expand on is adult obligation. this is going to sound obvious, but bear with me: when you are 13-18 (and if you go to college on a typical 4-year path, 13-22) you are in a bubble away from certain "adult" world concerns, specifically bills+debts/kids/jobs. the longer you remain in the "adult" world, the more your mind slowly drifts towards concerns that pertain to that world -- more things become Top-of-Mind as paul graham puts it in his infamous essay. startup founders end up being so distracted by having to raise and make money (specifically, the process of VC recruitment + monetization) that their brain becomes less wired-in for what made them want to make the startup in the first place. likewise, jerry seinfeld once remarked that once comedians become famous they have the option (and often take it) of being far away from the circumstances that pushed them to produce their best material. so, in addition to everything else, excellence in this kind of hobby requires someone who is willing to ignore these Top-of-Mind concerns and sacrifice income or kids or other adult luxuries to retain that 13-18 mindset toward the game. (to wit: I don't think it's an accident that many of the best are childless.)
I've heard (but can't verify) that competitive programming has this dynamic -- the best at it are people who get offensively lucrative offers from facebook et al. yet choose to turn these down for a position somewhere that lets them devote absurd amounts of time to competitive programming
I like how you said that people should find different things in rhythm games to be good at if they're not gifted in general (paraphrasing but you get the idea). Kinda like DDR vs PIU, if your accuracy sucks you can still be a good PIU crossover player.
I see it as a car engine, with genetics being the turbos. Some engines don't have turbos, while others do. It still takes some time and speed before the turbo spools up and gives more power.
I agree growth can be subject to genetics at times. I definitely hear you on this. It would be silly to think we all just become pros within the exact same time frame, but it also takes forever to break into being decent regardless of genetics, such as in my experience.. I started playing iidx (through LR2 cuz it's all I could find sorry) around 2011 at age 20 already with existing music and rhythm experience, and a natural sense for it, so a very late start but with advantages. I played off and on for about 8 years but wasnt serious about it until finding an actual cabinet near me several months ago. Despite playing so many years with a pre-existing knowledge of good rhythm, I was training way wrong which had me hitting a wall at reading level 7-8 charts for years.. within a month of no longer slowing down the audio through lunatic rave 2, but rather adjusting lane cover and scroll speed so notes are better spaced out (the only option you get at the arcade), I suddenly had the ability to sight read level 9 charts within a month. And now I'm about 50/50 on ranking B or above on level 10 charts. My point in all this, is to come up with new strategies for improvement rather than blame genetics outright, since that only counts for things like having a natural sense of pulse and timing. My natural abilities only took me to a level 6 until I started making adjustments to scroll speed and lane cover settings. Comprehending rhythmic subdivisions easier by doing this gives me the mental stamina to emphasize pulse and wrist relaxation more than ever, and it's continuing to make my scores climb.
To contribute to this topic, my ancestors have always been into playing instruments rather than playing sports. Every family member has played an instrument for the majority of their life. I started out playing piano at an earlier age, and when I moved on to saxophone, I was instantly much more talented. Of course, my genetics aren't the only things to factor in, but also years of practice and experience. I feel like my genetics not only amplified my skill level, but my interest as well, as if I didn't have a long line of ancestors making music I most likely never would've considered picking up piano, but here we are. In conclusion: Anyone can be good at rhythm games, even if they have never touched a musical instrument in their lives. It's the genetics that only assist you in improving your skill level.
Don't forget smart practice. I've seen so many players complain about not having enough time/not being talented enough, then talk about how they played the same song they haven't cleared 10 times in a row.
more like , innate talent, just allows you to pick something up faster than most people, it just clicks faster, you still gotta practice tho, its as if, you get experience faster and level up faster but you still gotta grind to get that experience
Another great example of age not mattering so much for rhythm games is Karthy, who started playing osu! when he was 21 and is currently 27 and rank #16 with some really great HR speed and consistency scores and even some DT. You can learn anything at any age, you just might improve somewhat slower.
Being younger makes learning things easier though. For example languages, the earlier one learns languages the easier it is. I agree that anyone can learn anything at almost any age, but age does play a role in the ease of learning.
So glad I started playing rhythm games when I was 10, it's only been a year including breaks and a few months of actually playing and I can nearly do difficulty 20s
i've had quite the mindset that genetics help with rhythm games for some months now. it took me 3 years to get where i am in osu!mania and someone i know not only reached, but surpassed me by far within 3 months (he took a 2 year break from rhythm games and we had similar skills then), even though i have 18+ days of playtime and always played at my physical limits as of a few months back. beginning to make me think i've reached as far as i physically can in osu!mania (rank 5.1k, reform dan 8), been stressing me a lot for some time now.
Sometimes playing differently will get you past a wall. I remember being stuck for a bit & then decided to hit my keys a little softer. Took a bit to learn the new style but it served as a success.
Genetics plays a role in improvement too. Just imagine a logarithmic graph. Y axis is skill X axis is time You can stretch the graph both negative and positive on the x and y axis as much as you want. Some people have a graph that favors early development with a early cap Some people have a graph that favors constant development with a late cap Over any amount of time you will improve. How much you improve in that given time is determined by that logarithmic graph. When you reach the limit (tangent approaching 0) You can work on consistency. When you become consistent in a certain skill you can play it in the world cup. Sure you wont play in the finals. But your skillset will be important on the early rounds where some strong players tend to lack.
Coming from a dude that has done multiple sports. Genetics has a minuscule role in rhythm games compared to some sports, especially strength sports and gymnastics. I, for example, have had serious injuries to my lower back simply because my hip anatomy is improper for some strength sports. I simply cannot squat like the "Asian squat" or Slavs, my hip sockets and the femur head simply don't allow for that sort of movement, because they impinge way earlier. Compared to this, genetic traits like finger length, reaction time, muscle fiber type etc are rather minuscule. They can help you perform in the long run but they absolutely cannot completely rule which games you can and which you cannot play. Just practice and build a solid foundation of skills.
Honestly I don't really care that much about genetics or talent in general too much, because all I need from rhythm games are satisfactions despite how easy it's achievable. That way I can keep playing rhythm games like StepMania and DDR for 11 years and still having fun with it, because that was the most important thing to me. I'm always looking towards my own scores to know if I'm improved or not. If my scores is higher than my PB, I know I'm improved by a bit. If my scores is significantly lower than PB, I know something is wrong that I need to fix. That being said, I do think genetic helps with rhythm games by quite a bit so that we see new names in the top ranks everytime. But everyone starts at 0 so people still need to work their way towards it. It isn't really a shortcut towards glory but more like an efficiency enhancer.
I also have a believe where i believe everyone had the potential to be the next randy, borealis, schmooey ect it just takes alot of dedication and effort to get there. I totally agree with you as well. But i had always believed everyone has this potential its just that most people have to unlock that potential which isnt in any way an easy journey but can be done kinda a hidden potential in all of us
People with natural talent seem to cap out in a shorter timeframe than other players, maybe because they never developed the correct mentality to push themselves over certain barriers. To me, the people who I consider to be "the best players" developed skill over a longer period of time, rather than coming in with a higher baseline of natural ability.
Your definition of best player is BS. If they arent the best then they arent the best. Its not about how they got as good as they are. Your definition of best has too many overlaps with "impressive"
@@CommandoBlack123 Well... it depends. What do u mean by "the best"? Cookiezi was the best on osu and he played A LOT for that, not only him but Wubwoofwolf, Vaxei, rrtyui and everyone that you can think of "The best".
@@CommandoBlack123 And you are not answering my question, what makes someone the best? They were "the best" at their time, they played a lot having or not "good genetics"
@@CommandoBlack123 And even more important, who cares? xd You aren't the best, i'm not the best and the top players doesn't think about "who is the best", they just play the fucking game lol
I have once thought that i got the short end of the stick in regards to the speed of osu improvement because of genetics. In reality, i think it's actually me getting old... at 20 years old :_:
Great video! Even if not everyone has the potential to become the absolute best player, that doesn't mean that people can't become a lot better than they think they could be with the right mindset and amount of effort.
I'm just gonna say this - I've been playing Guitar Hero for 10 years but I have very small hands, meaning I have a VERY hard time hitting GRYO chords. This extends to an absolute unability to alt-tap GRYO and GRBO quads, which is honestly very discouraging. That's genetics too, but no one talks about that ;___; and it's pretty much a hard limit, because there's no way I can make my hand grow larger. There are a lot of female players in my sourroundings, and they unfortunately encounter the same problem. Girl's hands are often smaller than men's hands, so it becomes an issue for them too.
From my experience: I am a ch player with a lot of raw speed (good genetics) but with a relative lack of coordination, which has been dissapearing with practice and it has allowed me to hit harder stuff and even get faster. So, genetics are useful, but practice is essential
The thing is I use to be really good at rhythm games and FPS games but in 2015 I had a head trauma injury and after that, though I do enjoy playing rhythm games a ton and fps games I'm not as great as I use to be I lost the abilities I once had I had to drop out from doing MLG gamebattles and even though I'm still above average at both styles of games sometimes I get frustrated because when playing I'm like I knew I could have done this before. I still continue to try but it's just a lot more emotional of the mind I have to be super strong on that note it's a battle I'm constantly fighting.
I can't physically move my arms , wrists, fingers, eyes quickly enough because I am a slow moving, heavy lifting, endurance built person trying to play a fast paced game that rewards speed and accuracy. I must not be motivated enough and that's why I type 32 wpm and top out at "140bpm"
@@xxsummer666xx4 Nice! I'm sooo bad at 5 fret games, I play 4k mainly but i've dipped my toes in osu as well. If you're interested in chatting about rhythm gaming I would love to get your discord or something. : )
I wish you would talk about more on emphasis on speed heavy rhythm games like osu!taiko and the genetics of that, since basically raw bpm speed is almost entirely how you become a top-level taiko player. Also maybe see if that correlates to why most of them are Japanese players.
Late to make this comment but here’s my thoughts. Genetics no doubt has inherent effects on certain factors that contribute to rhythm game performance, especially at the higher levels where the difference in skill levels between players are distinct and one who is adequately knowledgeable about said game would be able to identify strengths and weakness of the evaluated players(s). Reaction times, level of pattern recognition and coordination, and physical limits are distinct and unique for each player. For a player to be considered a top level player, they have to achieve feats which are at times, seemingly impossible based on physical considerations. To give a example, performing a full bar of 16th notes stream (any game, assuming with 2 keys alternating) at 200bpm, to all top level players, is nothing short of a norm. In fact, the inability to do this already keeps you out of the top ranks due to many of the charts/songs used in the deliberation of a player’s overall ability and skill. Now, let’s up that by an entire fold, let us do a stream with a whole bar of 16th notes at 400bpm, if that ever becomes a normality and common occurrence in charts/songs that are heavily weighted in determining a player’s skill, you can be sure that it will disqualify many players from the realm of the top players. This brings forth the point of chart acceptability by the players and once a personal threshold is passed, there are feats that are seemingly impossible to them just by physical consideration and the genetics do affect this, albeit to varying degree for each individual. Regarding the mental block you mentioned that player suffers such as the spike in the global number of FCs in chart only after the first ever is accomplished, I’d like to say that this is an interesting topic. I would say that psychologically, some of this stems from complacence and egoism. “Nobody FC it before, so if I can’t or don’t FC it, it doesn’t affect me in comparison” and then comes someone that actually tries his/her best and did achieve it, egoism from competitive players kicks in, many times it is not simply a matter of “If he/she can do it, so can I” but more of “He/she is not so special and I will do what it takes to bring forth that point”, sounds dark, but generally speaking, this is nothing short of the norm. Humans are inherently social and egoistic creatures, and in the context of rhythm games, at the top levels, this egoism and the pride are magnified, for if you do not take pride in your field of talent, why did you struggle all the way to the top? End of the day, genetics do affect one’s performance and capabilities, not acknowledging that just for one to remain in their fantastical world of “anything is possible”, would be rather delusional. However, if you let this mindset stop you from playing rhythm games further or discount other’s efforts and achievements, you are probably suffering from either inferiority complex and superiority complex. After all, why not just enjoy the game? There are so many great things to look forward to when you learn acceptance, it is just part and parcel of life.
I think it's also worthwhile to outline that, while genetics may very well be a factor for defining player skill, we don't even KNOW what kinds of genetics we're talking about. On more traditional, well-studied sports, we have a much clearer picture of what kinds of genetics make a player better: ideal basketball players are high, have big hands, great natural coordination, etc.; the ideal olympic swimmer basically has Michael Phelps' body; you get the idea. However, rhythm games are still very young and we do not have answers this clear. So not only is the "genetics" discussion currently misaimed, it also started off pretty bad and currently has no purpose other than to provide demotivated players with a scapegoat or a stick to beat themselves down with.
Another factor to consider with the age brackets is, how many people in their 20s are really willing or able to pour as much time into efficient skillset practice and raw hours that many teenagers put into rhythm games? I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but it just lines up that teens and ages like 18-22 are the peak of when people can pour the most time into rhythm games. Now that we have some players making a living from streaming rhythm games, maybe we will see that these players actually can keep improving and peak at 25-30 like in many other sports. I think it's just that most players eventually can't put as much time into these games as the other younger top players. The neural plasticity thing is definitely huge if you are purely looking at rate of improvement though, a 14 year old is always gonna pick it up faster than a 20 year old. But they should be able to meet back up again in skill level after some amount of time if they both keep consistently playing.
From my understanding genetics does help with basically everything but one does not stop it drom getting better. Same goes for talent, but in the end determination beats talent, although talent and genetics helps you to a higher plateau faster but with ones determination it is also achiavable to have the same skillset but with just different timings.
Here's my take. A lot of people are blaming their capacity to "get good" solely on bad genetics. There's also a lot of people who believe that genetics doesn't play a big role in how "good" you can get. I believe both types are just delusional and/or stupid, because reality is somewhere in between. You can become very skilled even without having the best natural talent, but that doesn't mean you have the potential to be at the very top if other people begin putting in the same amount of effort.
I think you covered this topic pretty well. Basically, genetics can help you improve much faster in rhythm games, but you don’t HAVE to have good genetics to be a top player in a game. It just might take you a lot longer to get there. For example, I’m willing to bet Vaxei’s genetics allowed him to singletap very fast from the very start of his time playing osu. Maybe not as fast as he can singletap now, but fast nonetheless. That helped him improve much faster because he only had to focus on other abilities like streaming and aim. I think it’s understandable for people to complain about genetics when it comes to physical ability in rhythm games. Like my stamina and speed are shit in osu and it takes me forever to train them meanwhile I’ve seen someone who’s like 100k pass Uta, presumably because their fingers are just naturally faster and stronger.
"you don’t HAVE to have good genetics to be a top player in a game" but you have to have decent genetics. So if you have bad ones, it'll be even worse for you in that case, and you will plateau earlier. That's just a fact of life.
@@apocalypseap Yeah but at the end its just a game. Its meant solely for enjoyment and you shouldnt be competitive about it unless youre playing on tournaments or something.
In the CH scene specifically, people like ghn00b, CarnyJared, and BlackGH have gotten really good in their regard despite not having the best genetics. Genes definitely do play a role, but it isn't the main defining factor for having skill and I feel like a lot of people have come to use it more as an excuse than anything. gr8 vid
Practicing every single day is the only thing you should remember if you want to be good, maybe you won't become a god, but almost everyone can be super decent at rhythm games if he wants to. I play for 5+ years now, I started like absolute trash, I got like 1k pp in two years of playing std becouse I just couldn't figure out what and how to practice. After that I got into top 100 of Russia in 4k mania in three years, in those years I got how to train myself properly to be better at literally anything game related, now I play taiko and I'm top 200 of Russia in like five months, while not just farming, but learning hard playstyles for future. My advices: play everyday, not less than one hour, two hours is a good midpoint, not gonna be hard if you love the game you're playing. Look for advanced playstyles and practice them if you see that it's better than yours in any way, this might be really hard, but will pay off in the end. As been said, try more rhythm games, you never know what will turn out to be really fun, I just found ADOFAI like that, randomly, thought it won't be my type of game, but it's insanely good. Good luck to everybody, and thanks for the video
I agree with a lot this video has to say. I would also say that genetics has different levels of impact depending on the activity. Obviously sports and such require people to be predisposed to being taller or bigger, etc. For rhythm games or games in general, it does play a part but in different ways such as reaction times and the speed at which one can learn something new which you covered here. I just don't like how many people believe that it is THE biggest part to being good at something. Hard work and effort are what make up most of someone's ability in my opinion. People always look at top players and think that they are just gifted so of course they are amazing, but they don't see the countless hours of grinding something over and over again until you get it right consistently. No one likes to think about that since that is the tedious part of getting skilled at something, but it is the reality. If one wants to improve, simply playing does not get the improvement one wants to see. Think critically about your play and what you are specifically doing wrong and grind it out till that skill becomes second nature. Great video and great topic of discussion!
people call genetics when they see players like whitecat or mrekk fc 270 bpm ar11 jumps, but what they haven’t seen is hours of focused practice and speed training.
genetics play a role in literally everything youve done in your life. some people naturally have better hand eye coordination, that helps with osu. rhythm and timing is a mental task and obviously some people are smarter then other. you obvioulsy have to put in the work, not all 7footers are in the nba, but there is alot more 7footers in the nba then 5ft 10 guys. that goes to show genetics play a part
For me, I just like playing rhythm games because they are fun, and I can push past my limits. I have had people ask me how I get good get 4k osu!mania (which is what I main, too), and all I say is practice, because that's all there is to it. I don't even have a good sense of rhythm, I just keep getting better at reading and tapping notes. To me, genetics does not help you get better in general at the game, but it can help you get better faster, in regard of understanding rhythm (as you mentioned).
Yes they do After 4 years I was a top 30000 player After putting in many, many hours I was finally starting to hit 200bpm after stopping I stopped playing after seeing so many players get at least top 10000 in just a year... It's so demotivating that I improve 2-4 times slower then the avg gamer :/
Yep it's why I quit. 10+ years, 100k+ playcount, rank 105k. My friends who started playing at the same time as me hit rank 1k with sub 100k playcount. I played way more often and way more in general than them, but they improve WAY faster.
@@desudesu8695 Well, if you play just to improve I think you'll hit a wall pretty fast not only because it'll burn you out but because it just makes the game boring at some point. If the only thing that makes you want to play rhythm games is setting good scores then do what I do, play a certain song, set a score and then go back to that same song 2 days or even weeks later and I'm sure you'll see at least some improvement :)
Just found your channel a few days ago and I absolutely love your content. I'm currently writing an academic essay on rhythm games. If you see this, and you don't mind, please could I cite some of your videos? I'd be happy to email you the finished product of course! When my degree is finished, I might take the content/my findings and make it into a video essay too. If discussing that here is too informal, then please feel free to email me instead if you'd like more details. Unrelated to that, but related to this video - Although genetics may not make much of a difference as far as acquiring skill goes, it could make a difference in relation to disability. To use myself as an example, I am visually impaired so my optometrist recommended I play more video games as it can help increase my perception. The condition I have means I will probably never get good enough to enter any leaderboards or to seriously compete; however, on a personal level, playing rhythm games such as Beat Saber has certainly improved my ability to focus on fast moving objects.
@@M4TTYN They clearly are though. I can think of a great number of physical and mental disabilities which could impair a person's ability to improve at rhythm gaming.
@@amai-w8f we’re not talking about that though, we’re talking about genetic impact on skill ceiling and rate of improvement regardless of how much effort one puts in.
Not just genetics, but i think some people just happen to have an ''ease'' or not with certain things - due to their environment, their upbringing and so on. Either way, genetics or predisposition that help with rhythm games is never going to make you a good player - those things are only noticeable for beginners, but after that it's all practise.
Then there are the Vr rythm games which are all about coordination most of the time, I suck at normal rythm games but am generally to compete at the highest level in these, interesting world^^
I think having 2 hands, working eyes, and ears is genetically gifted. To burden yourself over the hand you were dealt and the parents that birthed just so happened to not have left you behind a pair of absurd genetics isn't a valiant effort, and almost all but certainly isn't worth the time. Improvement is a skill set that isn't easily measured. Some can look at the simple play time in comparison to one game, but not see the play time in another game. A simple comparison would be someone transferring from Taiko arcade to osu! Taiko. Most American players don't have the access nor have used Taiko machines before they started playing osu! Taiko so to see Japanese players rise up insanely fast with such low play counts is almost a given. The Japanese players most likely had years of Taiko under their belt and simply transfered their knowledge and rhythm sense over and had a pretty smooth transition making their play counts low and accuracy over high. Really this applies to literally everything in that if you partake in tasks that are similar in nature or even not so much so those can be applied over to any game or any endeavor. If you can play piano really well with a high level of dexterity you'll probably be good at typing with fairly low time and possibly effort, but one thing is time doesn't necessarily = effort. Mindlessly approaching things typically ends in non calculated results and typically has deviation from the intended outcome. A much better alternative to mindlessness is to pursue a compromising moderation, a type of play involving a cognizant focus on the task. Playing smash all day without ever concerning what your opponent is doing and spamming combos you know usually doesn't allow you to win consistently nor improve your abillity to read your opponents actions. To play with the intention of figuring out than to do what you always do is a lot more rewarding in the sense of improvement and to reach a higher level of skill or 'talent'. Genetics are simply a baseline and don't define what you can do given enough time and effort along with involving other skill sets that have been acquired. To focus on the steps involved than the end result is the way to continue growth and enhance your repertoire. 100 kills on lol, csgo, valorant, and what not won't win you the game solely, you have to win the match to actually win. You have to win the amount of rounds needed or in lol you have to destroy the nexus or have the enemy team surrender so focusing on how to win is always much better than the win.
Short answer: yes
Long answer: not in a feasible way that will stop you from getting to the top level
i agree
That's just not true for some people. Some people will never get there no matter how hard they try.
@@apocalypseap yeah, so give up is what youre saying
Basically yeah, I'm an osu! player and i dont think there's a way that someone (some people at least) with zero skills in osu could ever reach merami, whitecat or vaxei level of skill by just training even for 10+ years of training, those people i mentioned are almost inhuman tbh, the pace they improve on the game from an average player to borderline not human is absurdly fast, and i think genetics plays a big role for that, they're like built to demolish the game
i consider myself improving pretty fast but i can't even think reaching near that level of skill even with years of training, maybe yeah you can reach 3 digits if you really serious and averaging on 5000 plays per month but reaching top 10, no, even reaching top 25 or 50 would be a herculean feat
The point is, dont be to obsessed to be become the best, you could try but dont become nailed to that aspect of the game, osu or any other rythm game is a fun and satisfying type of game, especially when you realize your improvement like for example FCing a map you couldn't even pass a month ago, have fun
Same case like iq and learning, people just gotta exert extra effort to achieve something equal to a person witb superior learning speed.
In the words of Chris Chike, "My genetics probably have something to do with it."
Thats a generation of family members who play rhythm games.
the whole genetics thing was probably started by some rando failing his 30s tv size dt farm
I'm dead 😂
probably LOL
did you watch the same video
I'm waiting for a pp mapper to make a map but the song is an actual ringtone, and proceed to get it ranked. Would be the most meta thing to ever happen in osu.
xD
Needed stuff to be good at osu
-Divorced parents
-Femboy
Lol true
???
false, i'm both and I'm terrible playing osu
Asian
wow I guess then I need to become a femboy 😭😭
i come from a long line of dishwashers, of course its genetic
this is the best comment
If there was a rythm game about dishwashing, you'd be the top player at it, and when the time comes, I'll remember you, and you can give me a shout out.
so uh when you get #1 remember me
My take:
Genetics is a modifier, but everyone still starts at 1. Gotta put work in for the modifier to do something
good take
well put
Nice
I wish that was true but its wrong to believe that everyone starts at the same level. If i put 100 people playing osu!mania who all never played it before i already would expect some of them to perform a lot stronger than the others
@@Rose_Emp No. Well yes. But there's more to it than that. Genetics play a role in everything.
It defines your limit,
It defines your improvement rate,
it defines your susceptibility to injuries,
it defines your reaction time (reactive and responsive),
it defines your physical traits,
it defines your mental (Also the environment you grew up in plays a role here)
it defines part of your personality (compulsive, passive, aggressive)
it defines literally anything. You can be born without an arm and that would be genetics
It really sucks that MASSIVE biceps don't help my jackspeed
You're looking at the wrong muscle bud get those triangle pushups in
Wouldn't it make more sense for your forearms to affect that?
@@ibojofamily8472 I know. It sucks that they don't though
vibro is hard. it takes years to do 195 bpm for most players. be patient.
i suck with those
the scariest title
lol
awoooo
hard pill for most to swallow: Some are born “gifted” while others are not. Even then, those whom are born “gifted” still have to grind to get at the top, same goes for those whom aren’t gifted, however i’d argue they’d have to spend more time than the gifted person
Honestly, I feel it's a lot more impressive if an expert player got to their skill level through years of effort rather than being naturally hyper-talented and getting there in a much shorter time than usual.
One thing I don’t hear a lot in discussions of “genetics vs hard work” is this thought, “Do genetics predispose someone to having a better work ethic?”
yeah obviously some people are just more industrious than others
You never hear about the hard working failures because they're not successful.
Yes. ADHD exists. Boom
I think for most normal people the most important factor is actually *how much time you are allowed to practice*
Starting from a young age is advantegeous, but not all parents allow their kids to play games for a long time, let alone buying controllers for a specific game or going to arcade frequently
And later in the life there are more and more things that occupy your time from practicing
Like he briefly mentioned the mental side matters a lot and people don't pay enough attention to it (most don't at all tbh). I'm pretty sure it matters way more than genetics especially if you are a beginner or even an average player. People definitely should believe in themselves more and not be lazy to experiment with play styles. There are other things too like having a consistent sleeping schedule eating healthy or not exercising etc all of this affects improvement at anything
I think one more important thing that people don't pay enough attention to is warming up properly
If u wanna improve at something the key isnt necesarily to play it 5hours a day its more to keep it consistent for years maybe even 30mins a day can make u become really good if given enough time and then add in all off what you said. Edit: also wanna add that enjoying the game is the most important thing when i'm having fun playing a game u get reckless improvement speeds without realising it .
This whole video is basically "I can't quantify how much of a role it plays because I have no idea."
@@apocalypseapIt's almost like you didn't understand the point of the video as a whole.
@@apocalypseap huh? He's not setting out to quantify it though. The question is, "do genetics help with rhythm games?" Not, "exactly how much do genetics help with rhythm games?" Anyways, there is literally no one on the planet who knows the answer to that second question since there is almost no research on the subject. The point is that yes, obviously genetics help, but not really enough to prevent you from becoming a top player.
@@EtienneYT Easy to say the cliche dismissive statement, harder to prove that I actually didn't understand it. Some people will never be "top players" of many games no matter how hard they try, so it's probably a waste of time for them to try, when they would be better suited to something else.
I feel like genetics matters the most not when it comes to improving, but when it comes to your health. Some people can play osu for 8+ hours a day for years with no problems meanwhile other people get hand pain/develop more serious problems while playing a lot less... And sadly, that is mostly genetics. It doesn't matter how hard you can work to achieve what you want when you develop strong pains/carpal tunnel/RSI along the way simply because of genetics.
Good point, that is indeed another aspect of it
This is probably the biggest aspect yeah.
but yet my genetics make me can play 1 hour and so on to 5 hours
How long you can play osu! for isn’t genetics. It’s improper form. Some people death grip their pen (I’m guilty of this) and it drastically shortens how long you can play for before experiencing pain.
In terms of stream players the angle they have their hand at can determine how long they can comfortably play for. There’s been a gazillion studies on that concept for office workers and RSI.
People are really quick to blame genetics for stuff that it really doesn’t apply much to. Unsurprisingly the difference between people freaking wrists is relatively minute.
Of course there will always be someone who can improve way faster than you and just skyrocket to the top of the leaderboards, but that's no reason to quit. As long as you can find the answer to "how can I improve at this game?" Then you can keep practicing become incredibly good from your own effort.
plus most of those who skyrocket in skill play a lot in the first couple of years
TOM BRADY
Even if in theory most people have the potential to reach top level, the truth is not everyone who tries succeeds.
"Genetics" that word is triggering when it comes to rhythm games. I feel like it is an excuse for lazy people to use as to why they aren't improving as much. So many factors contribute to improvement so basing improvement solely because of genetics or how far someone has pushed the skill level is unreliable. I guess a better word for genetics is talent. Vaxei was certainly talented, but why do people seem to forget his play history graph on his osu! profile, the fact that he was so young, and the way he played???
Why does it triggers you?
Ur triggered because ur terrible. The end
@@reflections7612 did you not read his whole message
me: "genetics"
also me: *200 plays a month, 100 hours over 3 years*
I think you’re overgeneralizing. Not everyone who complains about genetics is too lazy to improve. For example, I’ve spent a ton of time trying to train myself to be able to singletap 220 bpm in osu, and while I’m making progress, it’s very slow. Meanwhile, I know people who are much lower ranked than me and even people who don’t play the game who can singletap faster than me just by default. That is undoubtedly a genetics thing and it’s incredibly frustrating knowing I have to work much harder to make my fingers move faster.
This puts "I'm built different" into a new light
My favorite point in this video that I think is so important is that just because you aren't naturally talented at one skillset doesn't mean you are a lost cause. Try all of the possible ways to play rhythm games, and find something that you can do well. Everyone can do something well.
Very VERY good video!
I would honestly say it's probably not so much genetics as much as it *may* be upbringing. Let's be real here; not everyone is born into a family that may or may not end up living near "the right" rhythm gaming locations/subcommunities, nor is everyone born into a family that may or may not end up being supportive of their childrens' choice of getting into dance games as part of their lives. It's not a concrete, set-in-stone, or guaranteed thing. We can all make do with what we end up having when we each first discover the world of dance games (and the dance game community), but realistically we can only shape our life circumstances so much. I think at the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not what you're born into & what you grow up with just so happens to work in your favor if/when you get into rhythm gaming.
Its both. (well... more than just both but yeah a lot more factors than just genetics)
Easiest way to improve: Dont overthink everything. It happends to me all the time but then i always remember to take a break, play something else or do some sports and keep your mind fresh! You dont need genetics mate, just a good motivation :)
a factor I'd like to expand on is adult obligation.
this is going to sound obvious, but bear with me: when you are 13-18 (and if you go to college on a typical 4-year path, 13-22) you are in a bubble away from certain "adult" world concerns, specifically bills+debts/kids/jobs. the longer you remain in the "adult" world, the more your mind slowly drifts towards concerns that pertain to that world -- more things become Top-of-Mind as paul graham puts it in his infamous essay. startup founders end up being so distracted by having to raise and make money (specifically, the process of VC recruitment + monetization) that their brain becomes less wired-in for what made them want to make the startup in the first place. likewise, jerry seinfeld once remarked that once comedians become famous they have the option (and often take it) of being far away from the circumstances that pushed them to produce their best material. so, in addition to everything else, excellence in this kind of hobby requires someone who is willing to ignore these Top-of-Mind concerns and sacrifice income or kids or other adult luxuries to retain that 13-18 mindset toward the game. (to wit: I don't think it's an accident that many of the best are childless.)
I've heard (but can't verify) that competitive programming has this dynamic -- the best at it are people who get offensively lucrative offers from facebook et al. yet choose to turn these down for a position somewhere that lets them devote absurd amounts of time to competitive programming
I like how you said that people should find different things in rhythm games to be good at if they're not gifted in general (paraphrasing but you get the idea). Kinda like DDR vs PIU, if your accuracy sucks you can still be a good PIU crossover player.
I see it as a car engine, with genetics being the turbos. Some engines don't have turbos, while others do. It still takes some time and speed before the turbo spools up and gives more power.
I also have ADHD which can make me lose focus mid song and make me miss parts that i should be able to easily do
awesome video as always :D
Really a risky title indeed
I agree growth can be subject to genetics at times. I definitely hear you on this. It would be silly to think we all just become pros within the exact same time frame, but it also takes forever to break into being decent regardless of genetics, such as in my experience.. I started playing iidx (through LR2 cuz it's all I could find sorry) around 2011 at age 20 already with existing music and rhythm experience, and a natural sense for it, so a very late start but with advantages. I played off and on for about 8 years but wasnt serious about it until finding an actual cabinet near me several months ago. Despite playing so many years with a pre-existing knowledge of good rhythm, I was training way wrong which had me hitting a wall at reading level 7-8 charts for years.. within a month of no longer slowing down the audio through lunatic rave 2, but rather adjusting lane cover and scroll speed so notes are better spaced out (the only option you get at the arcade), I suddenly had the ability to sight read level 9 charts within a month. And now I'm about 50/50 on ranking B or above on level 10 charts. My point in all this, is to come up with new strategies for improvement rather than blame genetics outright, since that only counts for things like having a natural sense of pulse and timing. My natural abilities only took me to a level 6 until I started making adjustments to scroll speed and lane cover settings. Comprehending rhythmic subdivisions easier by doing this gives me the mental stamina to emphasize pulse and wrist relaxation more than ever, and it's continuing to make my scores climb.
I play with 'cover lane' not to give me a handicap, but because it's something offered by the game to play differently
To contribute to this topic, my ancestors have always been into playing instruments rather than playing sports. Every family member has played an instrument for the majority of their life. I started out playing piano at an earlier age, and when I moved on to saxophone, I was instantly much more talented. Of course, my genetics aren't the only things to factor in, but also years of practice and experience. I feel like my genetics not only amplified my skill level, but my interest as well, as if I didn't have a long line of ancestors making music I most likely never would've considered picking up piano, but here we are.
In conclusion: Anyone can be good at rhythm games, even if they have never touched a musical instrument in their lives. It's the genetics that only assist you in improving your skill level.
lemme just grab some popcorn for this comment section
Don't forget smart practice. I've seen so many players complain about not having enough time/not being talented enough, then talk about how they played the same song they haven't cleared 10 times in a row.
more like , innate talent, just allows you to pick something up faster than most people, it just clicks faster, you still gotta practice tho, its as if, you get experience faster and level up faster but you still gotta grind to get that experience
ye
Another great example of age not mattering so much for rhythm games is Karthy, who started playing osu! when he was 21 and is currently 27 and rank #16 with some really great HR speed and consistency scores and even some DT. You can learn anything at any age, you just might improve somewhat slower.
Being younger makes learning things easier though. For example languages, the earlier one learns languages the easier it is.
I agree that anyone can learn anything at almost any age, but age does play a role in the ease of learning.
I think this is simply the best video about this exact topic
So glad I started playing rhythm games when I was 10, it's only been a year including breaks and a few months of actually playing and I can nearly do difficulty 20s
i've had quite the mindset that genetics help with rhythm games for some months now. it took me 3 years to get where i am in osu!mania and someone i know not only reached, but surpassed me by far within 3 months (he took a 2 year break from rhythm games and we had similar skills then), even though i have 18+ days of playtime and always played at my physical limits as of a few months back. beginning to make me think i've reached as far as i physically can in osu!mania (rank 5.1k, reform dan 8), been stressing me a lot for some time now.
Sometimes playing differently will get you past a wall. I remember being stuck for a bit & then decided to hit my keys a little softer. Took a bit to learn the new style but it served as a success.
18 days in 3 years?
I attribute all of my success to being gay -Jonx #1
Jonx #1
Based
Genetics plays a role in improvement too.
Just imagine a logarithmic graph.
Y axis is skill
X axis is time
You can stretch the graph both negative and positive on the x and y axis as much as you want.
Some people have a graph that favors early development with a early cap
Some people have a graph that favors constant development with a late cap
Over any amount of time you will improve. How much you improve in that given time is determined by that logarithmic graph.
When you reach the limit (tangent approaching 0) You can work on consistency. When you become consistent in a certain skill you can play it in the world cup. Sure you wont play in the finals. But your skillset will be important on the early rounds where some strong players tend to lack.
The best example of hard work / practice in osu is Karthy. Man put the effort in and it payed off.
You never hear about the failures, because they failed, and continue to fail.
@@apocalypseap Yes. Someone with a brain on the topic. Though a little negative, its the truth.
1:05 ah yes that aged so gracefully did it not
It actually did ngl
genetically engineered femboy tv size farmers
yooooooo you actually put the phigros dude at the end, his gameplays are legendary
Coming from a dude that has done multiple sports. Genetics has a minuscule role in rhythm games compared to some sports, especially strength sports and gymnastics.
I, for example, have had serious injuries to my lower back simply because my hip anatomy is improper for some strength sports. I simply cannot squat like the "Asian squat" or Slavs, my hip sockets and the femur head simply don't allow for that sort of movement, because they impinge way earlier. Compared to this, genetic traits like finger length, reaction time, muscle fiber type etc are rather minuscule. They can help you perform in the long run but they absolutely cannot completely rule which games you can and which you cannot play. Just practice and build a solid foundation of skills.
Genetics play the same role. You just dont use your whole body in a rhythm game so theres less ways you can get screwed from it.
Honestly I don't really care that much about genetics or talent in general too much, because all I need from rhythm games are satisfactions despite how easy it's achievable. That way I can keep playing rhythm games like StepMania and DDR for 11 years and still having fun with it, because that was the most important thing to me. I'm always looking towards my own scores to know if I'm improved or not. If my scores is higher than my PB, I know I'm improved by a bit. If my scores is significantly lower than PB, I know something is wrong that I need to fix.
That being said, I do think genetic helps with rhythm games by quite a bit so that we see new names in the top ranks everytime. But everyone starts at 0 so people still need to work their way towards it. It isn't really a shortcut towards glory but more like an efficiency enhancer.
I think people needed to hear this. It’s both informative and encouraging
As a personal trainer who also plays rhythm games I was not expecting Alan Thrall to get name dropped hahaha, great dude!
I also have a believe where i believe everyone had the potential to be the next randy, borealis, schmooey ect it just takes alot of dedication and effort to get there. I totally agree with you as well. But i had always believed everyone has this potential its just that most people have to unlock that potential which isnt in any way an easy journey but can be done kinda a hidden potential in all of us
7:46 Yeah. Randy is *REALLY* convinced.
Also young people have more time in their life to grind than older people, which plays into it
nah,i played for hours on end and still people that hardly play were better than me,not like i care tho
mrekk barely played and got insanely good quick, his very young age helped alot.
People with natural talent seem to cap out in a shorter timeframe than other players, maybe because they never developed the correct mentality to push themselves over certain barriers. To me, the people who I consider to be "the best players" developed skill over a longer period of time, rather than coming in with a higher baseline of natural ability.
Your definition of best player is BS. If they arent the best then they arent the best. Its not about how they got as good as they are. Your definition of best has too many overlaps with "impressive"
@@CommandoBlack123 Well... it depends. What do u mean by "the best"? Cookiezi was the best on osu and he played A LOT for that, not only him but Wubwoofwolf, Vaxei, rrtyui and everyone that you can think of "The best".
@@josantmas8387 By definition there can only be one "best" player
@@CommandoBlack123 And you are not answering my question, what makes someone the best? They were "the best" at their time, they played a lot having or not "good genetics"
@@CommandoBlack123 And even more important, who cares? xd You aren't the best, i'm not the best and the top players doesn't think about "who is the best", they just play the fucking game lol
I have once thought that i got the short end of the stick in regards to the speed of osu improvement because of genetics. In reality, i think it's actually me getting old... at 20 years old :_:
23 here. I recently broke into barely into 5digits, so definitely is possible to improve. My crappy pen grip holds me back way more than age.
22 and still improving at 4k. almost 2 digit. age doesnt matter until you hit 30+ at the minimum!!
@@AirSpanii the important thing with age is the age you started at.
20 is not old at all.
i honestly just have fun, i dont do something if i don't like it or find it boring.
now I know what to send when people call me a hacker
Great video! Even if not everyone has the potential to become the absolute best player, that doesn't mean that people can't become a lot better than they think they could be with the right mindset and amount of effort.
noticed over the years how many sm/mania players all have very thin wrists, use that info as you will maybe it plays a part
It's funny because I play mania and my wrist is quite thin 😂
i have medium wrists
I started rythem games this year and im preaty good even if im autistic
I'm just gonna say this - I've been playing Guitar Hero for 10 years but I have very small hands, meaning I have a VERY hard time hitting GRYO chords. This extends to an absolute unability to alt-tap GRYO and GRBO quads, which is honestly very discouraging.
That's genetics too, but no one talks about that ;___; and it's pretty much a hard limit, because there's no way I can make my hand grow larger.
There are a lot of female players in my sourroundings, and they unfortunately encounter the same problem. Girl's hands are often smaller than men's hands, so it becomes an issue for them too.
i know this is an old video but i just found it and seeing the mention of schmooey after he got exposed is just hilarious to me
I just joined this video to say: Yes, they help.
True like we are lucky we are born with hands the play rhythm games smh
@@suspiciousneighbor4799 lucky to have functioning eye and ear too
The fact that you were born with those does not mean you can use them perfectly... And there is where the genes help 😉
From my experience:
I am a ch player with a lot of raw speed (good genetics) but with a relative lack of coordination, which has been dissapearing with practice and it has allowed me to hit harder stuff and even get faster. So, genetics are useful, but practice is essential
The thing is I use to be really good at rhythm games and FPS games but in 2015 I had a head trauma injury and after that, though I do enjoy playing rhythm games a ton and fps games I'm not as great as I use to be I lost the abilities I once had I had to drop out from doing MLG gamebattles and even though I'm still above average at both styles of games sometimes I get frustrated because when playing I'm like I knew I could have done this before. I still continue to try but it's just a lot more emotional of the mind I have to be super strong on that note it's a battle I'm constantly fighting.
I can't physically move my arms , wrists, fingers, eyes quickly enough because I am a slow moving, heavy lifting, endurance built person trying to play a fast paced game that rewards speed and accuracy. I must not be motivated enough and that's why I type 32 wpm and top out at "140bpm"
i find it fascinating how many parallels there are between rhythm games and sports, especially since i hate sports but i love rhythm games lmao
I think rhythm games can be considered a sport, so that's probably why.
Also hell yes other trans rhythm game player!! what games do you play?
@@minmax5 i used to play osu, but i quit due to toxicity in the community. now i play clone hero and other 5 fret games! what about you?
@@xxsummer666xx4 Nice! I'm sooo bad at 5 fret games, I play 4k mainly but i've dipped my toes in osu as well.
If you're interested in chatting about rhythm gaming I would love to get your discord or something. : )
@@xxsummer666xx4 I have some scores posted on my youtube if you're interested in seeing me play btw : )
This is just like anime. Good genetic = noble, bad genetic = the anime MC
I wish you would talk about more on emphasis on speed heavy rhythm games like osu!taiko and the genetics of that, since basically raw bpm speed is almost entirely how you become a top-level taiko player. Also maybe see if that correlates to why most of them are Japanese players.
1:07 didnt age well
Wdym Schmooey is a top player
you give the best explanations out there
true
Yes I have no hands therefore I can blame genetics
Oh shit. I found someone else using a no hand example
Late to make this comment but here’s my thoughts.
Genetics no doubt has inherent effects on certain factors that contribute to rhythm game performance, especially at the higher levels where the difference in skill levels between players are distinct and one who is adequately knowledgeable about said game would be able to identify strengths and weakness of the evaluated players(s).
Reaction times, level of pattern recognition and coordination, and physical limits are distinct and unique for each player.
For a player to be considered a top level player, they have to achieve feats which are at times, seemingly impossible based on physical considerations. To give a example, performing a full bar of 16th notes stream (any game, assuming with 2 keys alternating) at 200bpm, to all top level players, is nothing short of a norm. In fact, the inability to do this already keeps you out of the top ranks due to many of the charts/songs used in the deliberation of a player’s overall ability and skill. Now, let’s up that by an entire fold, let us do a stream with a whole bar of 16th notes at 400bpm, if that ever becomes a normality and common occurrence in charts/songs that are heavily weighted in determining a player’s skill, you can be sure that it will disqualify many players from the realm of the top players.
This brings forth the point of chart acceptability by the players and once a personal threshold is passed, there are feats that are seemingly impossible to them just by physical consideration and the genetics do affect this, albeit to varying degree for each individual.
Regarding the mental block you mentioned that player suffers such as the spike in the global number of FCs in chart only after the first ever is accomplished, I’d like to say that this is an interesting topic. I would say that psychologically, some of this stems from complacence and egoism. “Nobody FC it before, so if I can’t or don’t FC it, it doesn’t affect me in comparison” and then comes someone that actually tries his/her best and did achieve it, egoism from competitive players kicks in, many times it is not simply a matter of “If he/she can do it, so can I” but more of “He/she is not so special and I will do what it takes to bring forth that point”, sounds dark, but generally speaking, this is nothing short of the norm.
Humans are inherently social and egoistic creatures, and in the context of rhythm games, at the top levels, this egoism and the pride are magnified, for if you do not take pride in your field of talent, why did you struggle all the way to the top?
End of the day, genetics do affect one’s performance and capabilities, not acknowledging that just for one to remain in their fantastical world of “anything is possible”, would be rather delusional. However, if you let this mindset stop you from playing rhythm games further or discount other’s efforts and achievements, you are probably suffering from either inferiority complex and superiority complex.
After all, why not just enjoy the game? There are so many great things to look forward to when you learn acceptance, it is just part and parcel of life.
I think it's also worthwhile to outline that, while genetics may very well be a factor for defining player skill, we don't even KNOW what kinds of genetics we're talking about. On more traditional, well-studied sports, we have a much clearer picture of what kinds of genetics make a player better: ideal basketball players are high, have big hands, great natural coordination, etc.; the ideal olympic swimmer basically has Michael Phelps' body; you get the idea.
However, rhythm games are still very young and we do not have answers this clear. So not only is the "genetics" discussion currently misaimed, it also started off pretty bad and currently has no purpose other than to provide demotivated players with a scapegoat or a stick to beat themselves down with.
Another factor to consider with the age brackets is, how many people in their 20s are really willing or able to pour as much time into efficient skillset practice and raw hours that many teenagers put into rhythm games? I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but it just lines up that teens and ages like 18-22 are the peak of when people can pour the most time into rhythm games.
Now that we have some players making a living from streaming rhythm games, maybe we will see that these players actually can keep improving and peak at 25-30 like in many other sports. I think it's just that most players eventually can't put as much time into these games as the other younger top players. The neural plasticity thing is definitely huge if you are purely looking at rate of improvement though, a 14 year old is always gonna pick it up faster than a 20 year old. But they should be able to meet back up again in skill level after some amount of time if they both keep consistently playing.
From my understanding genetics does help with basically everything but one does not stop it drom getting better. Same goes for talent, but in the end determination beats talent, although talent and genetics helps you to a higher plateau faster but with ones determination it is also achiavable to have the same skillset but with just different timings.
"in the end determination beats talent" Sadly, this is not how the real world works for some people. Fantasy only gets them so far.
@@apocalypseap yeah sadly some people are too captivated with the word "talent" and "genetics" which brings their spirit down in an instant
@@mauhanoviardo You never hear about the hard-working failures, because they fail, even if they work hard. Must be nice to be that ignorant.
Here's my take. A lot of people are blaming their capacity to "get good" solely on bad genetics. There's also a lot of people who believe that genetics doesn't play a big role in how "good" you can get. I believe both types are just delusional and/or stupid, because reality is somewhere in between. You can become very skilled even without having the best natural talent, but that doesn't mean you have the potential to be at the very top if other people begin putting in the same amount of effort.
ye
I think you covered this topic pretty well. Basically, genetics can help you improve much faster in rhythm games, but you don’t HAVE to have good genetics to be a top player in a game. It just might take you a lot longer to get there. For example, I’m willing to bet Vaxei’s genetics allowed him to singletap very fast from the very start of his time playing osu. Maybe not as fast as he can singletap now, but fast nonetheless. That helped him improve much faster because he only had to focus on other abilities like streaming and aim. I think it’s understandable for people to complain about genetics when it comes to physical ability in rhythm games. Like my stamina and speed are shit in osu and it takes me forever to train them meanwhile I’ve seen someone who’s like 100k pass Uta, presumably because their fingers are just naturally faster and stronger.
"you don’t HAVE to have good genetics to be a top player in a game" but you have to have decent genetics. So if you have bad ones, it'll be even worse for you in that case, and you will plateau earlier. That's just a fact of life.
@@apocalypseap Yeah but at the end its just a game. Its meant solely for enjoyment and you shouldnt be competitive about it unless youre playing on tournaments or something.
In the CH scene specifically, people like ghn00b, CarnyJared, and BlackGH have gotten really good in their regard despite not having the best genetics.
Genes definitely do play a role, but it isn't the main defining factor for having skill and I feel like a lot of people have come to use it more as an excuse than anything.
gr8 vid
Greg Doucette picked his parents right.
Loll harder than last time
short answer: yes
long answer: yes they do
More good takes courtesy of etienne
don't forget that certain "genetics" can also be detrimental to improvement
Practicing every single day is the only thing you should remember if you want to be good, maybe you won't become a god, but almost everyone can be super decent at rhythm games if he wants to. I play for 5+ years now, I started like absolute trash, I got like 1k pp in two years of playing std becouse I just couldn't figure out what and how to practice. After that I got into top 100 of Russia in 4k mania in three years, in those years I got how to train myself properly to be better at literally anything game related, now I play taiko and I'm top 200 of Russia in like five months, while not just farming, but learning hard playstyles for future.
My advices: play everyday, not less than one hour, two hours is a good midpoint, not gonna be hard if you love the game you're playing. Look for advanced playstyles and practice them if you see that it's better than yours in any way, this might be really hard, but will pay off in the end. As been said, try more rhythm games, you never know what will turn out to be really fun, I just found ADOFAI like that, randomly, thought it won't be my type of game, but it's insanely good.
Good luck to everybody, and thanks for the video
I agree with a lot this video has to say. I would also say that genetics has different levels of impact depending on the activity. Obviously sports and such require people to be predisposed to being taller or bigger, etc. For rhythm games or games in general, it does play a part but in different ways such as reaction times and the speed at which one can learn something new which you covered here. I just don't like how many people believe that it is THE biggest part to being good at something. Hard work and effort are what make up most of someone's ability in my opinion. People always look at top players and think that they are just gifted so of course they are amazing, but they don't see the countless hours of grinding something over and over again until you get it right consistently. No one likes to think about that since that is the tedious part of getting skilled at something, but it is the reality. If one wants to improve, simply playing does not get the improvement one wants to see. Think critically about your play and what you are specifically doing wrong and grind it out till that skill becomes second nature. Great video and great topic of discussion!
the most depressing thing for rhythm game players is having adhd im depressed
Some people use rhythm games to help with adhd. Id imagine the harder maps get the better it would be as an outlet no?
relatable, i have add and i will sometimes randomly space out while playing a chart. it’s frustrating ):
I feel like my adhd helps me with rhythm games cuz of hyper focus
@@CommandoBlack123 doesn't "help" but I for sure get hyperfocused on them LOL
I need a phrenologist to check my skull before playing my rhythm games. Don't know bout you.
Don’t give up if you’re late to the game. There’s a reason boomers in the osu! community still dominate owc rosters. Experience trumps pure talent.
people call genetics when they see players like whitecat or mrekk fc 270 bpm ar11 jumps, but what they haven’t seen is hours of focused practice and speed training.
Its definitely both though
Well then look at miles naismith he has more playtime than most topplayers but yeah I dont know what to say u should see his gameplay
genetics play a role in literally everything youve done in your life. some people naturally have better hand eye coordination, that helps with osu. rhythm and timing is a mental task and obviously some people are smarter then other. you obvioulsy have to put in the work, not all 7footers are in the nba, but there is alot more 7footers in the nba then 5ft 10 guys. that goes to show genetics play a part
For me, I just like playing rhythm games because they are fun, and I can push past my limits. I have had people ask me how I get good get 4k osu!mania (which is what I main, too), and all I say is practice, because that's all there is to it. I don't even have a good sense of rhythm, I just keep getting better at reading and tapping notes. To me, genetics does not help you get better in general at the game, but it can help you get better faster, in regard of understanding rhythm (as you mentioned).
Yes they do
After 4 years I was a top 30000 player After putting in many, many hours
I was finally starting to hit 200bpm after stopping
I stopped playing after seeing so many players get at least top 10000 in just a year...
It's so demotivating that I improve 2-4 times slower then the avg gamer :/
Yep it's why I quit. 10+ years, 100k+ playcount, rank 105k. My friends who started playing at the same time as me hit rank 1k with sub 100k playcount. I played way more often and way more in general than them, but they improve WAY faster.
@@desudesu8695 Well, if you play just to improve I think you'll hit a wall pretty fast not only because it'll burn you out but because it just makes the game boring at some point. If the only thing that makes you want to play rhythm games is setting good scores then do what I do, play a certain song, set a score and then go back to that same song 2 days or even weeks later and I'm sure you'll see at least some improvement :)
Yeah, I can approve this, because I am also a rhythm player
5:09 yooo thats my boy itsjoel on the leaderboard. I'm so proud ;-;
Just found your channel a few days ago and I absolutely love your content.
I'm currently writing an academic essay on rhythm games. If you see this, and you don't mind, please could I cite some of your videos? I'd be happy to email you the finished product of course! When my degree is finished, I might take the content/my findings and make it into a video essay too. If discussing that here is too informal, then please feel free to email me instead if you'd like more details.
Unrelated to that, but related to this video - Although genetics may not make much of a difference as far as acquiring skill goes, it could make a difference in relation to disability. To use myself as an example, I am visually impaired so my optometrist recommended I play more video games as it can help increase my perception. The condition I have means I will probably never get good enough to enter any leaderboards or to seriously compete; however, on a personal level, playing rhythm games such as Beat Saber has certainly improved my ability to focus on fast moving objects.
I dont even know genetics are a reason in rhythm games
their not.
@@M4TTYN They clearly are though. I can think of a great number of physical and mental disabilities which could impair a person's ability to improve at rhythm gaming.
@@minmax5 We’re tqlking about normal people with no impairments or mental disabilities
@@minmax5yes, its a thing to the ones that decide that its too much effort to be good so they pathetically choose to blame it on something else
@@amai-w8f we’re not talking about that though, we’re talking about genetic impact on skill ceiling and rate of improvement regardless of how much effort one puts in.
Sad but true x(
FGSky is the best opposite example of this.
Not just genetics, but i think some people just happen to have an ''ease'' or not with certain things - due to their environment, their upbringing and so on. Either way, genetics or predisposition that help with rhythm games is never going to make you a good player - those things are only noticeable for beginners, but after that it's all practise.
Then there are the Vr rythm games which are all about coordination most of the time, I suck at normal rythm games but am generally to compete at the highest level in these, interesting world^^
Honestly VR is still pretty latent. Latency tolerance and an immunity to motion sickness i think are the bigger things
@@CommandoBlack123 Offset? Tracking and latency are no issue, but agree, MS is an issue
It's sort of like when it comes to intelligence and achievements.
I think having 2 hands, working eyes, and ears is genetically gifted. To burden yourself over the hand you were dealt and the parents that birthed just so happened to not have left you behind a pair of absurd genetics isn't a valiant effort, and almost all but certainly isn't worth the time. Improvement is a skill set that isn't easily measured. Some can look at the simple play time in comparison to one game, but not see the play time in another game. A simple comparison would be someone transferring from Taiko arcade to osu! Taiko. Most American players don't have the access nor have used Taiko machines before they started playing osu! Taiko so to see Japanese players rise up insanely fast with such low play counts is almost a given. The Japanese players most likely had years of Taiko under their belt and simply transfered their knowledge and rhythm sense over and had a pretty smooth transition making their play counts low and accuracy over high. Really this applies to literally everything in that if you partake in tasks that are similar in nature or even not so much so those can be applied over to any game or any endeavor. If you can play piano really well with a high level of dexterity you'll probably be good at typing with fairly low time and possibly effort, but one thing is time doesn't necessarily = effort. Mindlessly approaching things typically ends in non calculated results and typically has deviation from the intended outcome. A much better alternative to mindlessness is to pursue a compromising moderation, a type of play involving a cognizant focus on the task. Playing smash all day without ever concerning what your opponent is doing and spamming combos you know usually doesn't allow you to win consistently nor improve your abillity to read your opponents actions. To play with the intention of figuring out than to do what you always do is a lot more rewarding in the sense of improvement and to reach a higher level of skill or 'talent'. Genetics are simply a baseline and don't define what you can do given enough time and effort along with involving other skill sets that have been acquired. To focus on the steps involved than the end result is the way to continue growth and enhance your repertoire. 100 kills on lol, csgo, valorant, and what not won't win you the game solely, you have to win the match to actually win. You have to win the amount of rounds needed or in lol you have to destroy the nexus or have the enemy team surrender so focusing on how to win is always much better than the win.
Tell me, fingers
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