@@Tankliker I’ve seen lathes that are 70+yo working better and more precisely than most of the new stuff without the need for a specialized technician coming every 6 month to work out an electronics problem 😅
@@Arvipa. I have a lathe build in 1966 at my current workplace. Mofo has a tolerance of like 0,2mm and the fuse probably was directly taken out of a tank for that motor.
Very interesting but at the same time it also makes me grateful that the ways on my laths are hardened and ground. Cast iron can last a decent amount of time if properly cared for but not as long as hardened ways can.
That is one way of looking at it. And it is a valid one. There is another point of view, though. Hardened ways become so expensive to recondition that the machine will likely be scrapped rather than fix it. If buying the lathe new, then this may work out for the best. But if buying a used lathe, if the ways are worn, purchase may not be a wise choice. I was never able to afford sending machine parts out for reconditioning and so I have always avoided hardened or chromed ways because of this. And hardened ways are not immune to wear. Typically it is the saddle that first becomes a problem as the leading edges loose their sharpness. This traps dirt which gets sucked in between the ways. The wear propagates with the saddle becoming convex - then acting as a funnel to insure that larger grit will enter. With this the saddle becomes a lap - embedding sharp particles in the cast iron. If some of those particles are harder than 62RC then they will abrade the hard ways. So to prevent wear it is important to insure that the saddle edges remain sharp. This is true for both unhardened and hardened ways. To your point, it is also true that the hardened ones will last longer. But if the edges are kept sharp even the soft lathe beds ought to last. This, of course, assumes that for both types the ways are kept clean and lubricated, and wiped down and oiled before use if allowed to stand idle for long periods of time. The standing idle allows the grit to set into and be held by the drying matrix of lubricant. As the saddle traverses this, the leading edge of the saddle quickly disintegrates. I have three lathes left in my shop. I reconditioned the ways of each about 45 years ago. One had hardened ways and I ground them on the planer. The other two have soft ways and the beds now still show no obvious wear. Neither does the hard one. -Rees
You couldn't have planned a Waner & Swasey turret lathe bed like that . They were hardened to 60 rc . I plained turret lathe beds that were raw castings . Nice job on the bed though . I did plan old turret lathe beds for strips. The chips came off in little chunks until you cut through the case harding . What was left cut like butter. That was fifty years ago at their Solon road plant in Ohio. It's to bad they went out of business . It was a fine company that made a great product. I enjoyed working there very much and learn a lot.
Shame most of the big names are gone now, long before I was born. Hendey Machine was about a half hour away from my house, had Waterbury Farrel and Farrel Birmingham nearby too, many first rate machinists in the area, got to know some of them growing up, outstanding people
Funny, isn't it. 50 years ago, in order to use tungsten carbide I needed to figure out a way to lift the tool and that is what I did. I even made the air cylinder, and it has been that way ever since. Rees
@@reesacheson5577Appreciate the practical approach. I remember the first thing that I made on a lathe that worked was an adjustable pressure relief valve. It kept the avtur at the correct pressure for the old Holset truck turbo jet engine.
this very nice video took me back about 45 years ago when i did the same kind of work in a machine factory. i wonder how many miles of material i have been scraping of machine beds like this. very nice to see again. and as a machine operator it sure isnt boring but interesting work wich needs full attention, because with hundreds of a mm tolerance. its very easy to make a part into waste if you dont pay attention.
Guys read the description. Mr Acheson put in a bunch of great details that will be of interest. I missed it my first time through. Thank you very much for providing that insight into how this is done. Obviously you don’t just bolt it down and pull a lever. It would be very easy to destroy a good lathe bed without an in depth knowledge of the trucks of the trade.
@@ЮрийПоляков-ь7д......or a lathe that has never been leveled and it has bent a lot. I have met a lathe machinist that said to me that " in 30 years of experience " he never heard that someone ever adjusted the leveling feet of their lathes !!! Can you imagine how wide spread stupidity was in this case?!?!
I have an old 9 inch South Bend That really needs this operation. Came from a rolling mill in Cleveland, given to me as junk. I don't know anyone who can do this type of repair. I only use the lathe for small short piece work. Thanks for sharing a very interesting video.
If you are indeed looking to get the bed planed send me an email. If you live close enough perhaps my son could do it. If too far, I am trying to find other planers willing to do this work and perhaps there is one close enough. Rees
Thank you for the explanation Rees. This info will be critical for those who take this up after you. What a wonderful job you did on that planer, I'm sure many, including myself, would be interested if you ever choose to give it up. Thank you for what you do, I consider this a public service there are so few folks that do it affordably! Take care, Noah.
I think that you are correct in that not many planers could do this job, but that is mainly because there are not many of them around anymore. However a planer is an inherently accurate machine and so I bet that most working planers could so this job satisfactorily. Regarding bed wear, most lathes with soft beds never get to this stage of wear. If kept clean and oiled they will last a long time. The problem usually begins with the saddle. Once their ways loose their end's sharp edges, grit gets funneled in between the two surfaces. This quickly progresses to making the saddle ways banana shaped and a more pronounced grit funnel. The saddle no longer has adequate bearing on the bed. The grit embeds in the saddle and it becomes a lap that eats away at the bed. So it is important that at the first sign that this is occurring, fix the saddle. Keeping the ways clean and oiled will go a long way towards preventing the condition from occurring in the first place. -Rees
I've seen videos of lathe beds being ground or hand scraped but never seen this method. This is awesome !! I know my bed isn't hardened so knowing this could be an option for me is great. Just need to find someone to do it
I have never seen it done either, and so I have no idea how someone else would do it. But this is how I did my 1st one 45 years ago and have done it this way ever since. Rees
"Great job, brought back lots of memories of sitting by a machine while my father made chips." As a guy said to me a lifetime ago... "when someone asks what I do for a living, I tell them I make swarf" What remains is the product, but I "make" swarf. And a lot of people make the wrong swarf... With carbon steel, we were taught to make swarf that was "C", "6" 0r "9" shaped, that dropped into the tray, didn't wrap, spoiling the product finish...
It's dialed in now. I could hear the deep bow where the blade was cutting air. That lathe is going to be spot on after adding and scraping some turcite.... :)
The thing is, once the bed and saddle are not straight dirt gets sucked in between the two and the saddle becomes a lap. Then the wear proceeds quite rapidly - to both the bed and the saddle. The saddle becomes banana shaped making it still worse. And the worn bed near the chuck insures that the saddle will never fit the unworn portions again. Rees
If you are asking if I could plane your lathe, the first question is probably where would you be coming from? I live in Alstead, NH, USA. If that is within a reasonable driving distance then the next question would be what size is the bed. You say "18 between centers". If that is 18 ft then no, it is too big. My planer accommodates 8ft long by 2ft wide. If either of these mean that you will be looking for another planer, there are several threads on the PracticalMachinist forum where people are trying to find planers. You might try there. There are not many working planers left. I looked up the Model A and it looks like the ways are not hardened, which is a prerequisite to being planable. -Rees
@@reesacheson5577 it's a South Bend contract lathe. Seems to be all original including the manual and foot locker. Recently stumbled across it on Craigslist. Have been a machines millwright for a long time. Couldn't pass it up.
Watching the machine take off what looked like an astronomical amount of material made my hind end pucker up to my neck! I couldn't imagine taking that much off, and it only being 0.026! I recently purchased a '42 10R, and its ways are absolutely trashed. I doubt there's any hope to similarly resurrect it (deeply swaybacked on the front V, no idea what the saddle looks like), but maybe I can play with it while I save my pennies for something better.
The typical feed rate for this is 0.005" horizontally. But because the tool is at a 45 degree angle the actual feed rate perpendicular to the edge is 0.0035" (horizontal times sine 45, or 0.707). Thus at only 0.0035" per stroke it takes quite a few and probably appears like more is being removed. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I understand you are no longer doing this, but your son may be taking on jobs part-time. I hope he keeps with it for a little while- I've decided I'm saving my pennies to have him fix this bed, if he can. I've taken some measurements on the front way, and it appears it's down between 0.014-0.020" depending on where (and from where) I am measuring. If you have any suggestions as to an appropriate measuring method, I would appreciate any help you could provide.
@@n9viw Fitz planed two beds one weekend about two months ago. So I guess there is still hope. With regard to measuring bed wear, I wrote this to an owner in an email recently: To get an idea of how much wear there is on the bed, you could attach a dial indicator to the saddle and set the stylus against one of the machined, but unused portions of the bed. Likely candidates include the flat on the top of the Vee (assuming it is a flat rather then a radius), or the portion between the Vees. These places should reflect the original plane and thus stylus deviation as the saddle traverses is likely from wear. And bed wear would help in visualizing what the saddle looks like. Of course, this will not tell you anything about way straightness. Also with the indicator, placing the saddle on an unworn bed-way (like near the tailstock end.) You might be able to tell how banana shaped the saddle is by trying to rock it on the probably pretty straight ways. That will help in determining how reasonable a scraping-only approach is. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 Thank you! I did measure from the saddle to the top of the front vee way, as well as to the unused flat between the rear vee ways, but not very exhaustively. I will do this again and map my findings in my (as yet to be started) machining notebook. I will send an email soon with my findings, and inquire about his current rate.
Very interesting video. You can really see the deep wear to the left of center of the lathe bed near the head (right where you'd expect it to be) I've never done this kind of work, but that seemed like a hell of a lot of wear.
If I recall, this bed took about 4 1/2 hours, and that seems normal. My rate was $50/hr and so $225. I am hoping that my son will be doing them from here on and his rate will be higher, though I do not know what it will be. He did plane two beds this past fall but and used my rate because he was acting as my apprentice. A job like this should take between 4 and 6 hours. Although recently they have all been close to 4 hrs. Rees
@@NikColyerMachineWorks When I replied I had assumed that you had read my ABOUT section where I described my retired situation, as well as provided my address. You will find it there. Rees
We always avoided regrinding lathe beds as a means of rebuilding lathes. Unless you're going to make liners to go under the saddle to bring the saddle back to proper height, your feed rod and lead screws will be out of alignment due to the saddle dropping. All depends on how much wear needs machined off. Don't forget, if the bed is worn, so is under the saddle.
The owner of this lathe bed is going to machine the saddle and fill it with a plastic way material to bring it back into alignment with the leadscrew. Even though on a Southbend it is simple to shim down the changegear box and end support, this lathe was so worn that using the filler seemed the best option. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 ahhh I see, using Turcite way material under saddle. Yeah we've done a ton of CNC mills and lathes. We always brought everything back to OEM centerlines so ballscrews are not bound up. Good job
A very nice job sir! One thing I would ask is that before you start for our visual purposes is to coat all the surfaces in red Dyekem so we can see where the planer is cutting and the amount of wear still to be planed out. Many thanks for this fascinating video.
The typical lathe bed seems to take about 5 hrs. My rate has been $50/hr. However, I am not yet sure that I will be planing any more beds. See the ABOUT section for more on this. Rees
В далеком 75 коллега трудился на строгальном. Было у него их два такой и маленький. Оба ленд лизовские "Цинциннати" . Впоследствии, в 84- 85 и самому довелось на мелком трудиться. Работа не высокой квалификации, строгал заготовки для штампов, матрицы, съемники, пуансоны.
Google translate: "Back in 1975, a colleague worked at a planing machine. He had two of them, one like this and a small one. Both are Lend Lease "Cincinnati". Subsequently, in 84-85, I myself had the opportunity to work in small jobs. Not highly qualified work, planed blanks for dies, dies, pullers, punches." I like hearing of stories like yours. By "Lend Lease" I assume that you mean the program just before World War II where the US gave equipment to England (and perhaps Russia?). -Rees
No, the bed is not hardened. What is happening is that as the cutting brings the surface near to the desired size, the feed rate is decreased so as to reduce the spring, both in the tool holder and the lathe bed itself. Then the final stroke is made without advancing the tool at all. making what is called a "spring cut". That last cut is then very close to a condition in which all parts of the system, lathe bed and planer, are relaxed, thus producing a surface that closely matched that of the planer's stroke. The object is to eliminate any flexing that is due to tool pressure. That powder you saw was likely the final cut, and so the depth of cut was not enough to make chips. Rees
When the cut starts making “dust” instead of chips, is that just a difference in depth of cut or is something else going on here? Very cool thank you for sharing
As the cutting nears its final depth the depth of cut is reduced. The final cut is made without moving the head at all and so is a "spring cut". The reason is to insure a good surface finish and to minimize deflection problems. Rees
I’m a little confused. I thought lathe bedways (these days) are induction hardened and ground? Maybe it wasn’t that way when the old Southbend Lathe was made? It appeared to me that the planer started out making rolled chips as it cut through the outer hardened V ways but then once it got underneath it was just making graphite cast iron crumbs? Does then bed ways now need to be induction hardened & then ground? I’m no machinist, so this is all new to me, I’m just trying to make sense of what I saw based on my limited knowledge / experience. Maybe there’s something obvious that I am missing / not understanding correctly. Please excuse me if it’s a dumb newby question, but how else can I learn? 🤷♂️ TIA for anyone who can set me straight & help me learn. 👍👍👍🇦🇺
A lot of people ask this question and so I probably should have stated in the description that the bed is soft, as-cast, iron. All machine tools used to be made like that, but beginning in the 1960's and more so in the 1980's the beds started being induction hardened. This bed was probably made in the 1940's. Regarding the chips, the first chips are thicker due to the ".004" depth of cut, while the final passes are 0.0005" and the last is no feed at all - a spring cut. So the difference is not anything to do with the bed but the depth of cut. The final cuts are so light so as not to deflect the bed by any measurable amount. I try to insure that the bed is straight within 0.00025" in its length. A 0.004" depth of cut would deflect the bed more than that. And incidentally, after the planing the ways will not be hardened but should be scraped. This not to make them straight, but to impart a very smooth and slippery surface that will wear well with the saddle. -Rees
Rees, excellent video, thanks for sharing. What are your thoughts about also touching up the bottom way surfaces for the rack in front and the rear anti-lift gib?
Those surfaces must remain reasonably parallel to the planing and I sometimes plane them, but usually not. For the rack, several thousandths out of parallel, or in waviness should be fine. And on the back it depends on the lathe. The Southbends that I know of from that era have a anti-lift gib that accommodates variation in that the side that contacts the carriage is higher than the sliding surface. In this way, the bolts that hold it are snugged and then backed off a bit. There seems to be a wide range on most I have encountered. Further, they have seemed to use lock washers that have the effect of inducing a spring action to the gib, accommodating variation in clearance. I don't often have that gib, or the carriage, but if I do I try to adjust the angle of that gib so that it fits reasonably well. In any event, I check for parallel to the ways and decide how to handle it case by case. Rees
@@joandar1 Yes, despite its being nearly 120 years old, it is in very good condition. But a properly designed flat-tool should work well on broad cuts even on a more worn planer. The tool is very sharp, but key is that the edge is behind the flex point. This means that it will reduce the depth of cut very slightly as tool pressure increases. If it were the other way, chatter would be intense and probably catastrophic to the tool. An increase in tool pressure would then increase the depth of cut, which would further increase tool pressure, until finally the tool would spring ahead, blasting out a chunk of material, only to repeat it again. Rees
In the ABOUT section you should find my email address. Also in the ABOUT you will find that had stopped taking on new work because my mind has gotten so foggy. That said, the deterioration has slowed and by using a check-list I have done 3 recently and all 3 went well. With this in mind I would be willing to plane yours if you are willing to have me try. There is, of course, the question of where you live. I live in Alstead, New Hampshire, USA. I have tried to gather a list of planers to send work to but the list is nearly empty. If anyone reading this has a planer or knows of one perhaps they could let me know so that I could add it to the list, -Rees
Theres that one dame spot for a little ways like 2 5ths the le gth od the stroke, where no chips form, are the ways bowed there so the machine is lifting off?
The bed is badly worn, that is why it is being planed. The place you mention is too low for the cutter to reach. As the cutter is advanced with each stroke, the length of that low area is reduced until finally it disappears. At that moment the way has become straight, cutting ceases and the head is moved to cut the next way.
It's interesting that the planer sounds like a giant breathing in his sleep, whilst the traveling head shaper we have downstairs sounds like a donkey braying, but it's possibly a bit worn..
Is meehanite the material typically used for South Bend? Lots to learn; love the comment section that brings it all together in the real world IMHO. Excellent content.@@reesacheson5577
@@mackellyman5642 Meehanite is a tradename which includes several types of cast iron. I do not know much about the tradename and its specifications. However, iron machine tool parts are generally made from "gray iron" - the soft form of cast iron that results from slow cooling. Carbon dissolved in pure iron forms steel, but when cool, the grains of steel can hold only 0.83% carbon - the excess being forced out of solution. Adding even more carbon to the iron will, upon cooling, force the carbon to congregate into free carbon platelets, so at between 2% and 4% carbon the iron is classified as cast iron, and it becomes littered with these carbon platelets when cooled. It is this free carbon that makes cast iron so desirable for sliding machine parts. It dampens vibration, but more importantly, it forms a slippery solid lubricant on the surface. The very high carbon qualities of cast iron lower the melting temperature, while also making it more fluid to flow well into casting molds. I think that the cast iron used in most machines beginning in late 1980's is a form of nodular iron, or "ductle iron", that has similar qualities to gray iron except that by adding magnesium its tensile strength has been increased to above its yield strength. (Lately, many people refer to this as Meehanite) This means that the iron will bend rather than break when stressed to over its yield strength. For machine tools this quality would be of little value, but I think it is used nonetheless, as it has become the standard cast iron. One advantage of nodular iron is that, because of the increased yield it can more readily be welded - the part can yield to the welding stresses without breaking. Rees
only time i ran a planer like that was in late 70s. Gray flying scot i believe. then around 2000 i ran a really big planer 3 heads 7'x14' bed. took a day and a half to flat tool something. the whole building shook when that bull gear changed direction.
So there is a difference between a shaper and a planer? I figured they were all called shapers since they seem to do the same process in the same or similar manner
A shaper moves the cutting tool over the work, while a planer moves the work over the tool. The practicality of moving the tool over the work evaporates at some point as the required stroke increases. While you could just keep increasing the stroke, keeping that stroke straight becomes a problem - the apparatus becoming so large and cumbersome that moving the workpiece becomes more attractive and easier to keep straight. Rees.
First, all four of the bed ways need to be straight and parallel to one another. The two carriage ways need to be precisely the correct distance apart or the carriage will not bear correctly. In order to achieve good bearing the two ways must also be in the same plane, meaning that unless you are prepared to use lots of trigonometry, the two ways must also be the same height off the planer table. You start by planing the most worn way, then the same side of its mate, maintaining the correct distance between the two cuts. Then the other side is done the same way. The result should be that they become the same height and the correct distance apart. The two headstock/tailstock ways are usually independent of the carriage ways in that they need not have a relationship maintained other than parallel. (But it is a good idea to remove a similar amount so that the flats on the top of the Vee is a reasonable width.) These two ways usually consist of a Vee way and a flat way, and they need to be cut so that the headstock bears evenly. That means that after both sides of the Vee is cut, the flat must be cut to precisely the correct height or else the headstock will be cocked and will bear on three lines instead of three surfaces. Rees
As you suggest, the bed could be milled. In fact, there are not many planers left and so it is unlikely that many lathes would now be cut in the fashion shown in this video. However, since you ask the question, if a planer is available, I think it is a much better option than milling for several reasons: - A planer with a flat-tool as used in the video is likely quite a bit faster than milling, requiring about 90 seconds to complete a side of a Vee removing 0.025". Milling would take a while to complete a single pass, and two passes would be the minimum to insure that the final cut was made at a uniform depth of cut. - A planer is more likely to cut a straight surface than milling. However, this of course depends on the condition of the mill and planer, and the size of the mill. The surfaces cut the video are likely within 0.0005" of straight in 4 ft. A mill would likely need to be quite large (a bed type, rather than saddle) and in good shape to achieve that. - A planer produces a smoother surface than a mill and one that is easier to scrape. In fact, the planed surfaces look like they could be used as is. The scraping produces a slippery surface that makes for a long life. A milled surface would likely need a minimum of 4 scraper passes while a planed surface would need at least two. Note that my opinion is biased by the fact that I have been using planers for 50 years and would always choose a planer over a mill for long work. Therefore I have had little long-mill experience. My opinion is also based in the fact that I have a planer to use, while most people do not and would therefore not consider advising to use one. While on the subject, grinding is another option - and more commonly used than either a mill or a planer. If the grinder is in good shape and large enough, it too can produce a surface as straight as a planer. And in cases of machining hardened ways, it is the only option. But I am not a fan of grinding long ways. During grinding, half of the heat goes into the work piece, while with a planer it is less than 10%. Further, a grinder produces about 10 times as much heat for cutting the same amount of metal as a planer. That's 50 times as much heat in the work piece to deal with. It is very important to keep this heat from distorting the work, otherwise when the work temperature stabilizes it will not be straight. It requires a good operator and lots of coolant to keep this heat under control. -Rees
It seems to take about 5 hours to plane a lathe bed. The longest was 8 hrs. Shortest has been 4. Shop rate is $50 and hour. But I have stopped taking in jobs because I'm getting a bit dim-witted and find it difficult to keep things in order. My son now owns the shop and it is possible that he might get interested. So far he has been too busy with other things. If you are really interested send me an email and I will try to work something out. Rees
As an update, my son now owns the shopbut has another full-time job. However we have talked and he has said that he will do the planing while I supervise. We just need to have it fit into some prearranged schedule so that he can make time for it. So if you are still interested email to the address in the ABOUT section and we can discuss whether to proceed further. Of course at issue is also how far away you are from New Hampshire. Where are you located? Rees
At about 2:10 the feed was reduced to 0.001" (measured horizontally, so 0.00075" in the plane of the Vee). Then on the next stroke, the one you ask about, the head is not moved at all and so the tool performs a "spring cut". At least I think that that was the sequence. Usually I do a .00005" cut in between those two, but it does not look like it here. Rees
So satisfying , but tell me what planes the planer😅😅😅. Would really love to see and do this job 😊😊. Also i might add, its obvious and shows that carriage and tailstock are resting and travelling on two separate ways and it shows. These old machines were so robust compared to more modern ones and its such a shame to think that they're useless and past their best just because of worn bedways that are very seldom remachined . With this and a little more they can be as good as new.
You ask the question "What planes a planer?" I assume you are referring to the problem of since a planer is used to make a planer, how was the first planer made. I answered that question a few years ago with this: Most machine tools rely on passing a workpiece past a cutter. Anything in the way of the cutter is removed. How straight that cut is depends on how straight the path of the workpiece was. Machine tools rely on straight ways to guide the workpiece. In essence, the machine tool is copying the way's surface onto the workpiece. However, this is less so for a planer. The straightness of the rail is copied to the work across-wise, but longitudinally, planers tend to be more accurate than they themselves are. This is because the workpieces are usually long and so can flex slightly under their own weight. The planer's cutting tool is the same distance from the planer's own ways throughout the stroke and the planer table and work can flex to maintain contact with the planer ways, but the thickness is maintained. And since the finished part is flexible it can be leveled by jacking at various points to make the planed ways straight. Then hand scraping to a straight edge completes the process. Planers are also a bit like a road grader in that the blade being in the center of two sets of wheels halves the error at each pass. Obviously, these explanations have limits. My planer was made on a planer, and coming off the machine it was probably a little straighter than its maker. Planers are made to create straight ways. I think your question might have actually been, how did they make the first planer? An accurate planer can be made by hand using a straight edge. Whatever tools that are at hand can be used to speed up the process, but one could do it with a chisel, file and scraper along with some measuring tools to keep things parallel and fitting. And a straight edge can be made by making three of them at once, scraping each to another in sequence until all are straight enough for the purpose. A small planer can be used to make a larger one by segmenting the bed and table, and scraping them together to make the fit straight, for example. Very long planers have segmented beds. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 That's a beautiful explanation, you have explained it beautifully, yes they can of course be made by hand but they all were made from and stem from the lathe, the first ever and fundamental machine tool ever made, the only machine capable of producing itself, turning between centres is still the go to technique today when maximum high precision is needed. Its a clever way to achieve extremely high precision on one axis, the only way to achieve a perfectly straight surface, which is why the lathe is king.
If all you had were a milling machine, it could be used, but for several reasons it is probably the last resort if a grinder and planer were the other to options. 1) The surface finish of planing using the method shown ought to be far superior to milling. There are no successive tooth cuts, it is all one broad cut the entire length. This alone will probably save a couple of hours in scraping time. 2) Although not a great consideration, planing is quicker. Cutting time is probably twice as fast as milling. But cut time is only about a quarter of the job time. Though it may take longer to setup the job on a milling machine, too. 3) If the milling machine is a saddle type, then it is likely that the planer would cut straighter. And straightness really is an enormous time saver when it comes to scraping. If the mill were a bed type, where the table was supported like a planer table for its length, then the straightness could be expected to be as good as a planer. However, having said this, there are not many planers left and it would be difficult to find one in good enough shape to do the job. Way grinders have taken their place and are the usual method to straighten a worn lathe bed. Further, since about 1970, many lathes have hardened beds and these must be ground, not planed. But way grinders have problems of their own, particularly with controlling the enormous heat they produce - about 50% of which enters the workpeice and needs to be so immediately removed. If operated well they can do a superb job, but if not, the bed may not be straight at all. Personally, if I had both a way grinder and a planer, I would choose the planer unless the ways were hardened. And unless the milling machine were a bed type, I would weary of using it at all. -Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I watched lot of videos on Abom79 channel about shaper. I know the finishing is superior to milling, but I thought maybe easier to get the cuts then do grinding, just like in the factory refurbishment. Ok. Thx!
@@BMRStudio Ah, I see. Since proper setup is so time consuming, I would not want to do it twice. However, doing so would mean that only a very little would need to be ground off, thus limiting the heating problem. -Rees
I have written a paper on planer work, but I don't know of much else. There is a 2 volume set of books, "Machine Shop Practice", that has a chapter on planers. It's a good book. Rees
It's basically a giant super rigid shaper, the modern version would be a multi axis cnc surface grinder but I would bet the surface finish on this would make a better bearing surface for oil to stick to.
I assume that you are referring to a thermal metal spray. It is a reasonable question and there are several reasons why I think that using thermal metal spray would impractical: 1) The local heating of the bed ways would warp it enough that straightening would be necessary. Besides being difficult (I am not sure how one would even go about it) the bed would contain locked-in stresses due to the uneven heating, such that as material was removed during the cutting, the bed would continually move as the stresses were being removed by the cutting. This would make it impossible to machine a straight bed without performing a stress relieving operation first. 2) Stress relieving the bed after metal spray would warp the bed as the locked in stresses were released. Remember, the stresses being applied during the spray process are being resisted by the bed and so as they are both heated, they both deform to relieve, meaning the bed will not be the same shape as before. Also, during the stress relief the bed would need to be very carefully supported because at such temperatures its own weight becomes one of the stresses that are being relieved, and the support itself would likely change during the heating. The bed would likely be unusable afterwards. 3) The metal spray being applied would be of a different machineability than the cast iron of the bed and therefore, in order to get a straight surface upon planing, the spray would need to be uninterrupted. That is, the cast iron could never show through. 4) Such would also need to be the case because it is likely that the surface cast iron would have been heated over the 1350F critical temperature, over which a very slow cooling would be necessary to prevent the iron from turning into very hard and unmachinable martensite. Now, the surface could be ground instead of planing. This would get around the hardness and uneven machinability problem, however the distortion problem would remain. In addition there would likely be a feathering of the spray material at the transition areas and these areas would likely have unreliable adhesion (and wear) qualities.
@@alanswanson5642 The carriage will always need to be fitted to the bed. This may entail just scraping, but in this case the carriage is being machined by the owner. It was worn so badly that the owner is filling the carriage ways with a plastic to raise it up to maintain leadscrew alignment.
So what am I seeing here when the shavings / chips appear to turn to powder towards the last cuts ? Have we cut through the harden area and are now into the soft powdery casting or are you taking much lighter cuts?
This bed is not hardened. The reason the chips diminish is your second guess - that the depth of cut has been reduced. When there is a lot to remove the tool is advanced into the cut at a rate of about 0.005" per stroke. As the finished size is approached the rate becomes less to 0.001", and then 0.0005". Finally there is usually a spring cut where the tool is not advanced at all. With each of these last three stages the chip gets thinner until the last one is merely dust. Note that the tool advance of 0.005" is a horizontal movement. Because the way is at 45 degrees that becomes a 0.0035 depth of cut (0.005 x 0.707). The same goes for the lesser final cuts. Rees
This job took 5 hrs. With regard to getting planing work done, my mind is failing and I have decided that I should no longer be taking on planer jobs. However, my son now owns the shop, but it is not his primary job. I have received a lot of requests lately for planing and have spoken to him about doing these. He is interested and is willing to try to fit them into his work schedule. Because I have more planing experience, he would be doing the job, but I would be there with him to help. I am eager to see this planer continue to work. The first step is to collect the email addresses of those interested so that we can discuss how to go about this. If still interested please use the address in the ABOUT section. Thanks. Rees
I would love to send my lathe to you, its working life was on board a ww2 sub, and to be honest showing its age, I have made many parts to improve it, but to get this done would be the the dogs bollocks, little UK phrase for you, all the best for the future
I can. The cost is $50/hr and a bed takes about 4 to 5 hours. You do realize that the ways will need to be scraped afterwards, and that that would be your job. Finally, the shop is in Alstead, NH, 03602. That my be quite a hike for you. Reach me by the email in ABOUT if you would like to converse more on the subject. --Rees
2 роки тому
Professional machining, such a renovation would also be useful for my lathe.
This question comes up from time to time and I answer it simply. However this time I plan to delve in a bit deeper. From the perspective of the workpiece, a planer and a shaper are the same: a reciprocating cutter traversing a workpiece to create a plane surface. A shaper accomplishes this by reciprocating the cutter, and the workpiece is traversed under it, while a planer performs the opposite - reciprocating the workpiece and traversing the cutter. Notable are some shapers built in the late 1800's where the workpiece is mounted on a stationary floor plate and the cutter is both reciprocated AND traversed. Shapers are good for short stroking applications. Their short-coming being that their work table is small and therefore setup possibly difficult. But as the required stroke length increases, the practicality of a shaper diminishes. A long stroke makes it difficult to build and guide a ram that will not sag. Flatness relies on the unchangingly straight line of the cutter. By the time the stroke reaches about 30" a planer is likely a better tool. Planers, on the other hand, become advantageous with long workpieces. The distance between the cutting tool and the way that the table slides on immediately below the tool remains unchanged throughout the length of the cut. This means that, if the work is in contact with the table for its length, the thickness the work is cut to remains unchanged along its length. Within reasonable limits this is true even if the way is not straight because the lengths involved allow for sagging. The table will sag to fit the ways. Likewise the completed work, being long, will tend to sag into its supports, allowing jacking into a level plane when in use. (Note that because the planer has planed its own table, it to follows the rule of uniform thickness. So clamping to it insures the work will be uniform, as well.) But this simple concept becomes more complex in the case of a lathe bed with no central support pad, wherein the bed is supported only at its ends. In this case, what the planer table does at the stroke extremes affects the thickness being cut because the lathe bed is bridging over the way's surface under the cutter. So in this case it does indeed matter what condition the planer is in. However, it also means that the end-error is halved at the cutter because, at the extreme, the cutter is half way between the two ends. I call this the Road Grader effect - with the grader's blade mounted half-way between the wheels, when a wheel rises over a bump the blade rises only half that amount. Given this, although arguable, I think that a planer should be able to produce work that is straighter than itself. Rees
"What surfaces were taken as a base when installing a planer on the table?" Re-wording the question as: "What surface is used as a reference on the lathe bed?" As stated in the description, I set the bed on parallels so that the bed sags. Then I cut the top edges. The bed is flipped and those edges are clamped to the table and the base is planed. Flipping it upright again, the base becomes the reference. Then I line up the ways to the planer. I hope that you can understand. I am sorry I do not speak Russian.
Glad to see your still at it! I have a 1945 Sheldon SWQE 44 ,but im not sure if the ways are hardened or not as its has a lot of wear in the middle as they usually do lol if they can be redone i would surely set up an appointment to have it done. I'm not far from you here in Springfield MA
@@claas90017 The "center line" is not what's important but the axis. The center could vary quite a bit without consequence if all way surfaces were parallel. And that is what a planer does, makes them parallel. But likely your question was really "how do you find the axis". Usually the unused back side of the bed way is straight enough to find the vertical plane axis that the bed was planed in during manufacture. The for the horizontal, the base likely is not far off and might be used, or the top surface flats on the Vees are an indication. However, things are not always so straight forward. For example, the bed may have warped in either axis and then the task is it figure an axis that requires the least removal of material, or creates the least amount of work that will follow the planing. As I noted in the description, the bed sag must be accounted for, and while not directly related to the axis question, is related because an axis is a straight line. You also ask about keeping the headstock and tailstock in alignment, or perhaps getting them to seat correctly. They will be in alignment because the planer makes the bedways linear and parallel. Placing the two parts on these ways necessarily lines them up. Getting them to seat correctly is a little trickier. These are usually Vee-To-Flat ways and so both the Vee surfaces and the flat must be in complete contact. To do this the bed is first measured at an unworn area and and the dimension is repeated during planing. The measurement can be seen being done at 15:30 using a small Vee-Block over the Vee and an adjustable parallel on the flat way. The parallel has been set to the original dimension and here the flat is being lowered until the indicator will read zero. I think that answers your question. if not let me know and I will try again. Rees
I got it thanks. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have shared your video will all my buddies. We have wondered how this process was done Thanks again.
The tailstock drops because of its own wear, not because of the bed wear or bed machining. However, its center has likely lowered. If too low, the reasonable remedy is to shim it at the junction between itself and its base. The other solution would be to machine the headstock to lower it the same as the tailstock has been lowered. Or, I suppose make a new tailstock base. You asked how to machine the base. Using a Vee-Block the height difference between the Vee and the flat on the bed is determined. Then that height is maintained on the base using a round bar in its Vee. The procedure requires a bit more space to describe than I have here now. Its not complicated, just wordy. Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I get that bit but the worn bed will alter the profile shape of the flat/v of the tailstock so doing all that work and scraping it then it would be daft not to dress the tail stock...Like changing the oil and not the filter. Yes what you take off you must add some where.
@@theessexhunter1305 I think I understand your concern to be that some material would need to be removed from the tailstock, if not only to fit it - and that would lower it. Even if it was only by a tenth. And it would likely have worn quite a bit more than that. So, yes, correct. But that does not necessarily then require that the amount be made up by shimming. If the lathe is a small one a 0.005 or even 0.010" difference could reasonably be tolerated without measurably affecting turning. A larger lathe could function with considerably more. But it is easy to place the shims. Did I understand you correctly? If not I can try again.
@@reesacheson5577 being a tool maker milling/turning/ since 77 also sub contracting to firms. I get all of it. Dads old lathe is close to a 100 yrs old so I have to account for a lot of wear... Old lathe ua-cam.com/video/RQGlgBizHCo/v-deo.html Sub contract lathe ua-cam.com/video/dEcR-7M9uoM/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/hYoeY9jxZuU/v-deo.html Sub contract milling ua-cam.com/video/AUiFNZ9WU0k/v-deo.html
Как же напряжённо я ждал когда "возьмёт везде". ))
Some might find it boring but it really was very satisfying to watch and it's neat to see the wear patterns that were corrected! Neat video!
It's not boring, it's planing.
Quite correct! :-)
And a whole hour later I got the joke!
Oof!
@@emersonkluge343 #facepalm LOL
723k views, it's more popular than you think.
I Germany we say "Das war sehr spanend"
So cool to see an old machine being given a new lease on life.
Probably also pretty cost effective if considering the price of the material and the casting process itself.
If maintained properly this kind of machines could have 15 times the lifetime of modern machinery
@@Arvipa. very questionable claim
@@Tankliker I’ve seen lathes that are 70+yo working better and more precisely than most of the new stuff without the need for a specialized technician coming every 6 month to work out an electronics problem 😅
@@Arvipa. I have a lathe build in 1966 at my current workplace.
Mofo has a tolerance of like 0,2mm and the fuse probably was directly taken out of a tank for that motor.
Very interesting but at the same time it also makes me grateful that the ways on my laths are hardened and ground. Cast iron can last a decent amount of time if properly cared for but not as long as hardened ways can.
That is one way of looking at it. And it is a valid one.
There is another point of view, though. Hardened ways become so expensive to recondition that the machine will likely be scrapped rather than fix it. If buying the lathe new, then this may work out for the best. But if buying a used lathe, if the ways are worn, purchase may not be a wise choice. I was never able to afford sending machine parts out for reconditioning and so I have always avoided hardened or chromed ways because of this.
And hardened ways are not immune to wear. Typically it is the saddle that first becomes a problem as the leading edges loose their sharpness. This traps dirt which gets sucked in between the ways. The wear propagates with the saddle becoming convex - then acting as a funnel to insure that larger grit will enter. With this the saddle becomes a lap - embedding sharp particles in the cast iron. If some of those particles are harder than 62RC then they will abrade the hard ways.
So to prevent wear it is important to insure that the saddle edges remain sharp. This is true for both unhardened and hardened ways. To your point, it is also true that the hardened ones will last longer. But if the edges are kept sharp even the soft lathe beds ought to last. This, of course, assumes that for both types the ways are kept clean and lubricated, and wiped down and oiled before use if allowed to stand idle for long periods of time. The standing idle allows the grit to set into and be held by the drying matrix of lubricant. As the saddle traverses this, the leading edge of the saddle quickly disintegrates.
I have three lathes left in my shop. I reconditioned the ways of each about 45 years ago. One had hardened ways and I ground them on the planer. The other two have soft ways and the beds now still show no obvious wear. Neither does the hard one.
-Rees
You couldn't have planned a Waner & Swasey turret lathe bed like that . They were hardened to 60 rc .
I plained turret lathe beds that were raw castings .
Nice job on the bed though . I did plan old turret lathe beds for strips.
The chips came off in little
chunks until you cut through the case harding .
What was left cut like butter. That was fifty years ago at their Solon road plant in Ohio. It's to bad they went out of business .
It was a fine company that made a great product. I enjoyed working there very much and learn a lot.
Shame most of the big names are gone now, long before I was born. Hendey Machine was about a half hour away from my house, had Waterbury Farrel and Farrel Birmingham nearby too, many first rate machinists in the area, got to know some of them growing up, outstanding people
You could probably buy those old machines for pennies and start your own company.
You can plain hardened ways. You need a heavy machine but it can be done.
This is so much more entertaining than any reality tv show . I can watch this for hours
I love the rigged up chain to help hold the tool up during the return stroke. Ultra professional...
Funny, isn't it. 50 years ago, in order to use tungsten carbide I needed to figure out a way to lift the tool and that is what I did. I even made the air cylinder, and it has been that way ever since.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577Appreciate the practical approach. I remember the first thing that I made on a lathe that worked was an adjustable pressure relief valve. It kept the avtur at the correct pressure for the old Holset truck turbo jet engine.
I’ve done every machining process including shaping, but I’ve never done that. Very satisfying to watch. Thank you for sharing.
Hey what's your favorite? And least?
@@jsihavealotofplaylists Milling. I hated grinding. The silicon dust ruined my lungs.
It's nice to have a old planer
this very nice video took me back about 45 years ago when i did the same kind of work in a machine factory. i wonder how many miles of material i have been scraping of machine beds like this. very nice to see again. and as a machine operator it sure isnt boring but interesting work wich needs full attention, because with hundreds of a mm tolerance. its very easy to make a part into waste if you dont pay attention.
The planing machine is a nice one to watch in action! I should put my Southbend H 10" bed on the same table!
Guys read the description. Mr Acheson put in a bunch of great details that will be of interest. I missed it my first time through. Thank you very much for providing that insight into how this is done. Obviously you don’t just bolt it down and pull a lever. It would be very easy to destroy a good lathe bed without an in depth knowledge of the trucks of the trade.
Thank you for sharing this! I have read about doing this, but have never seen it done. Very good to see this old South Bend get the love it needs!
That's an incredible amount of wear at the headstock end. I guess about 95% of turning is done withing 2 inches of the chuck.
Clearly this bed is soft cast iron
Yeah, that’s usually the case unless the job was down at the other end of the bed like if they were doing long rollers
Где Вы видели такой патрон. Тут скорее неправильная установка станины.
@@ЮрийПоляков-ь7дthis is a very old machine. I have seen machines with this much wear before.
@@ЮрийПоляков-ь7д......or a lathe that has never been leveled and it has bent a lot. I have met a lathe machinist that said to me that " in 30 years of experience " he never heard that someone ever adjusted the leveling feet of their lathes !!! Can you imagine how wide spread stupidity was in this case?!?!
Wow, I watched every second of the video. Thanks so much for sharing and also for your very detailed description!
Oh man, that's satisfying. That machine is going to be so happy now.
I have an old 9 inch South Bend That really needs this operation. Came from a rolling mill in Cleveland, given to me as junk. I don't know anyone who can do this type of repair. I only use the lathe for small short piece work. Thanks for sharing a very interesting video.
If you are indeed looking to get the bed planed send me an email. If you live close enough perhaps my son could do it. If too far, I am trying to find other planers willing to do this work and perhaps there is one close enough.
Rees
Thank you for the explanation Rees. This info will be critical for those who take this up after you. What a wonderful job you did on that planer, I'm sure many, including myself, would be interested if you ever choose to give it up. Thank you for what you do, I consider this a public service there are so few folks that do it affordably! Take care, Noah.
Wow thats a great demo of how beds wear. I doubt one would find many planers capable of that job
I think that you are correct in that not many planers could do this job, but that is mainly because there are not many of them around anymore. However a planer is an inherently accurate machine and so I bet that most working planers could so this job satisfactorily.
Regarding bed wear, most lathes with soft beds never get to this stage of wear. If kept clean and oiled they will last a long time. The problem usually begins with the saddle. Once their ways loose their end's sharp edges, grit gets funneled in between the two surfaces. This quickly progresses to making the saddle ways banana shaped and a more pronounced grit funnel. The saddle no longer has adequate bearing on the bed. The grit embeds in the saddle and it becomes a lap that eats away at the bed.
So it is important that at the first sign that this is occurring, fix the saddle. Keeping the ways clean and oiled will go a long way towards preventing the condition from occurring in the first place.
-Rees
@@reesacheson5577 Excellent advice.
I've seen videos of lathe beds being ground or hand scraped but never seen this method. This is awesome !! I know my bed isn't hardened so knowing this could be an option for me is great. Just need to find someone to do it
I have never seen it done either, and so I have no idea how someone else would do it. But this is how I did my 1st one 45 years ago and have done it this way ever since.
Rees
This is first time i seeing latha bed machining.very nice.thank you sir 👌👍💐
Always a pleasure to see new content from you. I hope to be in touch in the spring! - JG
It’s interesting to see this type of work being done. Thanks for sharing.
Always nice to see your machine in operation
Great job, brought back lots of memories of sitting by a machine while my father made chips.
"Great job, brought back lots of memories of sitting by a machine while my father made chips."
As a guy said to me a lifetime ago... "when someone asks what I do for a living, I tell them I make swarf" What remains is the product, but I "make" swarf. And a lot of people make the wrong swarf... With carbon steel, we were taught to make swarf that was "C", "6" 0r "9" shaped, that dropped into the tray, didn't wrap, spoiling the product finish...
Pretty awesome. I love the attention to detail.
Don't see many videos of planers in use, very cool.
Oddly satisfying to watch. Thanks for sharing.
This looks way more fun than hand scraping.
It's dialed in now.
I could hear the deep bow where the blade was cutting air.
That lathe is going to be spot on after adding and scraping some turcite.... :)
After 70 years my Southbend lathe could use the ways worked on!
Nice video. Nice sound! Thank you for not adding useless music!!!!
Cool to see how much wear there is on a machine that did most its machining saddle close to the chuck
The thing is, once the bed and saddle are not straight dirt gets sucked in between the two and the saddle becomes a lap. Then the wear proceeds quite rapidly - to both the bed and the saddle. The saddle becomes banana shaped making it still worse. And the worn bed near the chuck insures that the saddle will never fit the unworn portions again.
Rees
Don't know why, but I always assumed this would be a job for a grinding wheel attachment. This is fascinating..!!
The most common method, as you assumed, is grinding. And if the ways have been hardened, grinding is the only option.
friend in UK factory worked lathe that had bed worn 1/8 inch in 2 years due to using some super new coolant!
I need this done to the old Lodge and Shipley model A I have. The catch, it's 18 between centers.
If you are asking if I could plane your lathe, the first question is probably where would you be coming from? I live in Alstead, NH, USA. If that is within a reasonable driving distance then the next question would be what size is the bed. You say "18 between centers". If that is 18 ft then no, it is too big. My planer accommodates 8ft long by 2ft wide.
If either of these mean that you will be looking for another planer, there are several threads on the PracticalMachinist forum where people are trying to find planers. You might try there. There are not many working planers left.
I looked up the Model A and it looks like the ways are not hardened, which is a prerequisite to being planable.
-Rees
Nicely done. I have a 1915 bed that will eventually need this done.
Well, there aren't many planers left. Especially ones that are in good condition.
What kind of lathe?
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 it's a South Bend contract lathe. Seems to be all original including the manual and foot locker. Recently stumbled across it on Craigslist. Have been a machines millwright for a long time. Couldn't pass it up.
will it make you have a better nights sleep
Watching the machine take off what looked like an astronomical amount of material made my hind end pucker up to my neck! I couldn't imagine taking that much off, and it only being 0.026!
I recently purchased a '42 10R, and its ways are absolutely trashed. I doubt there's any hope to similarly resurrect it (deeply swaybacked on the front V, no idea what the saddle looks like), but maybe I can play with it while I save my pennies for something better.
The typical feed rate for this is 0.005" horizontally. But because the tool is at a 45 degree angle the actual feed rate perpendicular to the edge is 0.0035" (horizontal times sine 45, or 0.707). Thus at only 0.0035" per stroke it takes quite a few and probably appears like more is being removed.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I understand you are no longer doing this, but your son may be taking on jobs part-time. I hope he keeps with it for a little while- I've decided I'm saving my pennies to have him fix this bed, if he can. I've taken some measurements on the front way, and it appears it's down between 0.014-0.020" depending on where (and from where) I am measuring. If you have any suggestions as to an appropriate measuring method, I would appreciate any help you could provide.
@@n9viw Fitz planed two beds one weekend about two months ago. So I guess there is still hope.
With regard to measuring bed wear, I wrote this to an owner in an email recently:
To get an idea of how much wear there is on the bed, you could attach a dial indicator to the saddle and set the stylus against one of the machined, but unused portions of the bed. Likely candidates include the flat on the top of the Vee (assuming it is a flat rather then a radius), or the portion between the Vees. These places should reflect the original plane and thus stylus deviation as the saddle traverses is likely from wear. And bed wear would help in visualizing what the saddle looks like. Of course, this will not tell you anything about way straightness.
Also with the indicator, placing the saddle on an unworn bed-way (like near the tailstock end.) You might be able to tell how banana shaped the saddle is by trying to rock it on the probably pretty straight ways. That will help in determining how reasonable a scraping-only approach is.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 Thank you! I did measure from the saddle to the top of the front vee way, as well as to the unused flat between the rear vee ways, but not very exhaustively. I will do this again and map my findings in my (as yet to be started) machining notebook.
I will send an email soon with my findings, and inquire about his current rate.
Very interesting video. You can really see the deep wear to the left of center of the lathe bed near the head (right where you'd expect it to be) I've never done this kind of work, but that seemed like a hell of a lot of wear.
hes only taking a few thou with those cuts so it seems like a lot had to come off
That is a wide blade! Looks like it works well.
Fantastic work ! Thanks for sharing...the finish your obtaining is amazing !
ATB....Dean
You can see where it was worn near the headstock. Cutter doesn’t engage there until it’s removed considerable stock
This lathe is, I think, the most worn lathe bed that I have done. The carriage was rubbing on the bed and the headstock way.
Rees
very good job....old school forever
Amazing work!!!
That’s awesome! As long as it’s bolted down well it should be nice and true.
Ballpark what is the cost of truing up a 10" southbend like this?
If I recall, this bed took about 4 1/2 hours, and that seems normal. My rate was $50/hr and so $225.
I am hoping that my son will be doing them from here on and his rate will be higher, though I do not know what it will be. He did plane two beds this past fall but and used my rate because he was acting as my apprentice.
A job like this should take between 4 and 6 hours. Although recently they have all been close to 4 hrs.
Rees
Where are you located?
@@NikColyerMachineWorks When I replied I had assumed that you had read my ABOUT section where I described my retired situation, as well as provided my address. You will find it there.
Rees
We always avoided regrinding lathe beds as a means of rebuilding lathes. Unless you're going to make liners to go under the saddle to bring the saddle back to proper height, your feed rod and lead screws will be out of alignment due to the saddle dropping. All depends on how much wear needs machined off. Don't forget, if the bed is worn, so is under the saddle.
The owner of this lathe bed is going to machine the saddle and fill it with a plastic way material to bring it back into alignment with the leadscrew.
Even though on a Southbend it is simple to shim down the changegear box and end support, this lathe was so worn that using the filler seemed the best option.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 ahhh I see, using Turcite way material under saddle. Yeah we've done a ton of CNC mills and lathes. We always brought everything back to OEM centerlines so ballscrews are not bound up. Good job
Eu já iria fazer essa mesma pergunta, pois também despertei essa dúvida. Abraços do Brasil.
A very nice job sir! One thing I would ask is that before you start for our visual purposes is to coat all the surfaces in red Dyekem so we can see where the planer is cutting and the amount of wear still to be planed out. Many thanks for this fascinating video.
Good idea. However, I might loose my markings. I use the bed itself for the drawing to mark the depths.
This has me wondering about my Southbend 9 bed and all. What are the options and costs?
The typical lathe bed seems to take about 5 hrs. My rate has been $50/hr. However, I am not yet sure that I will be planing any more beds. See the ABOUT section for more on this.
Rees
В далеком 75 коллега трудился на строгальном. Было у него их два такой и маленький. Оба ленд лизовские "Цинциннати" . Впоследствии, в 84- 85 и самому довелось на мелком трудиться. Работа не высокой квалификации, строгал заготовки для штампов, матрицы, съемники, пуансоны.
Google translate: "Back in 1975, a colleague worked at a planing machine. He had two of them, one like this and a small one. Both are Lend Lease "Cincinnati". Subsequently, in 84-85, I myself had the opportunity to work in small jobs. Not highly qualified work, planed blanks for dies, dies, pullers, punches."
I like hearing of stories like yours. By "Lend Lease" I assume that you mean the program just before World War II where the US gave equipment to England (and perhaps Russia?).
-Rees
Да, СССР.
Во время 2й Мировой.
That is one BIG shaper! 😲😍😍
Planer. Losers use emojis.
Thanks for the video! Very neat!!
What a great machine!
Nice to see- I did that job on a worn out atlas in 1972 in bangladesh(by hand with a file)
As it was cutting the chips chnaged over to powder. Im gussing the surface is hardend and soft the deeper you get. Does it need to be retreated after?
No, the bed is not hardened. What is happening is that as the cutting brings the surface near to the desired size, the feed rate is decreased so as to reduce the spring, both in the tool holder and the lathe bed itself. Then the final stroke is made without advancing the tool at all. making what is called a "spring cut". That last cut is then very close to a condition in which all parts of the system, lathe bed and planer, are relaxed, thus producing a surface that closely matched that of the planer's stroke. The object is to eliminate any flexing that is due to tool pressure.
That powder you saw was likely the final cut, and so the depth of cut was not enough to make chips.
Rees
When the cut starts making “dust” instead of chips, is that just a difference in depth of cut or is something else going on here? Very cool thank you for sharing
As the cutting nears its final depth the depth of cut is reduced. The final cut is made without moving the head at all and so is a "spring cut". The reason is to insure a good surface finish and to minimize deflection problems.
Rees
I’m a little confused.
I thought lathe bedways (these days) are induction hardened and ground?
Maybe it wasn’t that way when the old Southbend Lathe was made?
It appeared to me that the planer started out making rolled chips as it cut through the outer hardened V ways but then once it got underneath it was just making graphite cast iron crumbs?
Does then bed ways now need to be induction hardened & then ground?
I’m no machinist, so this is all new to me, I’m just trying to make sense of what I saw based on my limited knowledge / experience.
Maybe there’s something obvious that I am missing / not understanding correctly.
Please excuse me if it’s a dumb newby question, but how else can I learn? 🤷♂️
TIA for anyone who can set me straight & help me learn. 👍👍👍🇦🇺
A lot of people ask this question and so I probably should have stated in the description that the bed is soft, as-cast, iron. All machine tools used to be made like that, but beginning in the 1960's and more so in the 1980's the beds started being induction hardened. This bed was probably made in the 1940's.
Regarding the chips, the first chips are thicker due to the ".004" depth of cut, while the final passes are 0.0005" and the last is no feed at all - a spring cut. So the difference is not anything to do with the bed but the depth of cut. The final cuts are so light so as not to deflect the bed by any measurable amount. I try to insure that the bed is straight within 0.00025" in its length. A 0.004" depth of cut would deflect the bed more than that.
And incidentally, after the planing the ways will not be hardened but should be scraped. This not to make them straight, but to impart a very smooth and slippery surface that will wear well with the saddle.
-Rees
Rees, excellent video, thanks for sharing. What are your thoughts about also touching up the bottom way surfaces for the rack in front and the rear anti-lift gib?
Those surfaces must remain reasonably parallel to the planing and I sometimes plane them, but usually not.
For the rack, several thousandths out of parallel, or in waviness should be fine.
And on the back it depends on the lathe. The Southbends that I know of from that era have a anti-lift gib that accommodates variation in that the side that contacts the carriage is higher than the sliding surface. In this way, the bolts that hold it are snugged and then backed off a bit. There seems to be a wide range on most I have encountered. Further, they have seemed to use lock washers that have the effect of inducing a spring action to the gib, accommodating variation in clearance. I don't often have that gib, or the carriage, but if I do I try to adjust the angle of that gib so that it fits reasonably well.
In any event, I check for parallel to the ways and decide how to handle it case by case.
Rees
I never realized the cutter contact area was so wide on a planer. Amazing that there’s no chatter
Perhaps because the Planer is in great condition. John, Australia.
@@joandar1 probably, and it’s massive. No substitute for lots of cast iron. A remarkable machine.
@@sblack48 Agreed, John.
@@joandar1 Yes, despite its being nearly 120 years old, it is in very good condition.
But a properly designed flat-tool should work well on broad cuts even on a more worn planer. The tool is very sharp, but key is that the edge is behind the flex point. This means that it will reduce the depth of cut very slightly as tool pressure increases. If it were the other way, chatter would be intense and probably catastrophic to the tool. An increase in tool pressure would then increase the depth of cut, which would further increase tool pressure, until finally the tool would spring ahead, blasting out a chunk of material, only to repeat it again.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 What you said about tool pressure and flex point is so true of all machining operations, thanks for the reply. John.
So cool! Thanks for posting.
Casting material looking good
Casting shining is good
That breathing is the hydraulic pump doing it’s pumping.
How can I find out about getting my 1964 South Bend 13 with a 4 foot bed planned?
In the ABOUT section you should find my email address.
Also in the ABOUT you will find that had stopped taking on new work because my mind has gotten so foggy. That said, the deterioration has slowed and by using a check-list I have done 3 recently and all 3 went well. With this in mind I would be willing to plane yours if you are willing to have me try.
There is, of course, the question of where you live. I live in Alstead, New Hampshire, USA.
I have tried to gather a list of planers to send work to but the list is nearly empty. If anyone reading this has a planer or knows of one perhaps they could let me know so that I could add it to the list,
-Rees
Theres that one dame spot for a little ways like 2 5ths the le gth od the stroke, where no chips form, are the ways bowed there so the machine is lifting off?
The bed is badly worn, that is why it is being planed. The place you mention is too low for the cutter to reach. As the cutter is advanced with each stroke, the length of that low area is reduced until finally it disappears. At that moment the way has become straight, cutting ceases and the head is moved to cut the next way.
It's interesting that the planer sounds like a giant breathing in his sleep, whilst the traveling head shaper we have downstairs sounds like a donkey braying, but it's possibly a bit worn..
Naszej maszynie by się taki zabieg przydał!👍
Ma wyjebane łoże?
@@MortimerKadaver Tak ale już sprzedana
Loved running a planer.
Very interesting vid. I watched every second.
Will the bed ways be (case)hardened again, or just used as is plain cast ? Thanks for sharing your work.
The bed was not ever hardened, and it will not be after planing. It will be scraped to finish and used unhardened.
Is meehanite the material typically used for South Bend? Lots to learn; love the comment section that brings it all together in the real world IMHO. Excellent content.@@reesacheson5577
@@mackellyman5642 Meehanite is a tradename which includes several types of cast iron. I do not know much about the tradename and its specifications.
However, iron machine tool parts are generally made from "gray iron" - the soft form of cast iron that results from slow cooling. Carbon dissolved in pure iron forms steel, but when cool, the grains of steel can hold only 0.83% carbon - the excess being forced out of solution. Adding even more carbon to the iron will, upon cooling, force the carbon to congregate into free carbon platelets, so at between 2% and 4% carbon the iron is classified as cast iron, and it becomes littered with these carbon platelets when cooled. It is this free carbon that makes cast iron so desirable for sliding machine parts. It dampens vibration, but more importantly, it forms a slippery solid lubricant on the surface. The very high carbon qualities of cast iron lower the melting temperature, while also making it more fluid to flow well into casting molds.
I think that the cast iron used in most machines beginning in late 1980's is a form of nodular iron, or "ductle iron", that has similar qualities to gray iron except that by adding magnesium its tensile strength has been increased to above its yield strength. (Lately, many people refer to this as Meehanite) This means that the iron will bend rather than break when stressed to over its yield strength. For machine tools this quality would be of little value, but I think it is used nonetheless, as it has become the standard cast iron. One advantage of nodular iron is that, because of the increased yield it can more readily be welded - the part can yield to the welding stresses without breaking.
Rees
only time i ran a planer like that was in late 70s. Gray flying scot i believe. then around 2000 i ran a really big planer 3 heads 7'x14' bed. took a day and a half to flat tool something. the whole building shook when that bull gear changed direction.
So there is a difference between a shaper and a planer? I figured they were all called shapers since they seem to do the same process in the same or similar manner
A shaper moves the cutting tool over the work, while a planer moves the work over the tool.
The practicality of moving the tool over the work evaporates at some point as the required stroke increases. While you could just keep increasing the stroke, keeping that stroke straight becomes a problem - the apparatus becoming so large and cumbersome that moving the workpiece becomes more attractive and easier to keep straight.
Rees.
Can this not also be accomplished by a milling machine?
I am qurious how do yo know which dimensions to hold within relation to each other ?
First, all four of the bed ways need to be straight and parallel to one another.
The two carriage ways need to be precisely the correct distance apart or the carriage will not bear correctly. In order to achieve good bearing the two ways must also be in the same plane, meaning that unless you are prepared to use lots of trigonometry, the two ways must also be the same height off the planer table. You start by planing the most worn way, then the same side of its mate, maintaining the correct distance between the two cuts. Then the other side is done the same way. The result should be that they become the same height and the correct distance apart.
The two headstock/tailstock ways are usually independent of the carriage ways in that they need not have a relationship maintained other than parallel. (But it is a good idea to remove a similar amount so that the flats on the top of the Vee is a reasonable width.) These two ways usually consist of a Vee way and a flat way, and they need to be cut so that the headstock bears evenly. That means that after both sides of the Vee is cut, the flat must be cut to precisely the correct height or else the headstock will be cocked and will bear on three lines instead of three surfaces.
Rees
I am curious as to why the V is planed rather than milled? Would you please explain this to me? Tia
As you suggest, the bed could be milled. In fact, there are not many planers left and so it is unlikely that many lathes would now be cut in the fashion shown in this video. However, since you ask the question, if a planer is available, I think it is a much better option than milling for several reasons:
- A planer with a flat-tool as used in the video is likely quite a bit faster than milling, requiring about 90 seconds to complete a side of a Vee removing 0.025". Milling would take a while to complete a single pass, and two passes would be the minimum to insure that the final cut was made at a uniform depth of cut.
- A planer is more likely to cut a straight surface than milling. However, this of course depends on the condition of the mill and planer, and the size of the mill. The surfaces cut the video are likely within 0.0005" of straight in 4 ft. A mill would likely need to be quite large (a bed type, rather than saddle) and in good shape to achieve that.
- A planer produces a smoother surface than a mill and one that is easier to scrape. In fact, the planed surfaces look like they could be used as is. The scraping produces a slippery surface that makes for a long life. A milled surface would likely need a minimum of 4 scraper passes while a planed surface would need at least two.
Note that my opinion is biased by the fact that I have been using planers for 50 years and would always choose a planer over a mill for long work. Therefore I have had little long-mill experience. My opinion is also based in the fact that I have a planer to use, while most people do not and would therefore not consider advising to use one.
While on the subject, grinding is another option - and more commonly used than either a mill or a planer. If the grinder is in good shape and large enough, it too can produce a surface as straight as a planer. And in cases of machining hardened ways, it is the only option. But I am not a fan of grinding long ways. During grinding, half of the heat goes into the work piece, while with a planer it is less than 10%. Further, a grinder produces about 10 times as much heat for cutting the same amount of metal as a planer. That's 50 times as much heat in the work piece to deal with. It is very important to keep this heat from distorting the work, otherwise when the work temperature stabilizes it will not be straight. It requires a good operator and lots of coolant to keep this heat under control.
-Rees
@@reesacheson5577 tyvm.
How much would it cost to do another one? I have a 13x5 southbend lathe needs this done and looks like it is right up your ally.
It seems to take about 5 hours to plane a lathe bed. The longest was 8 hrs. Shortest has been 4. Shop rate is $50 and hour.
But I have stopped taking in jobs because I'm getting a bit dim-witted and find it difficult to keep things in order. My son now owns the shop and it is possible that he might get interested. So far he has been too busy with other things.
If you are really interested send me an email and I will try to work something out.
Rees
As an update, my son now owns the shopbut has another full-time job. However we have talked and he has said that he will do the planing while I supervise. We just need to have it fit into some prearranged schedule so that he can make time for it.
So if you are still interested email to the address in the ABOUT section and we can discuss whether to proceed further. Of course at issue is also how far away you are from New Hampshire. Where are you located?
Rees
I've seen slideway grinders in action but those are used on hardened beds
why did the chips stop curling @2:18 ?
At about 2:10 the feed was reduced to 0.001" (measured horizontally, so 0.00075" in the plane of the Vee). Then on the next stroke, the one you ask about, the head is not moved at all and so the tool performs a "spring cut". At least I think that that was the sequence. Usually I do a .00005" cut in between those two, but it does not look like it here.
Rees
So satisfying , but tell me what planes the planer😅😅😅. Would really love to see and do this job 😊😊. Also i might add, its obvious and shows that carriage and tailstock are resting and travelling on two separate ways and it shows. These old machines were so robust compared to more modern ones and its such a shame to think that they're useless and past their best just because of worn bedways that are very seldom remachined . With this and a little more they can be as good as new.
You ask the question "What planes a planer?" I assume you are referring to the problem of since a planer is used to make a planer, how was the first planer made. I answered that question a few years ago with this:
Most machine tools rely on passing a workpiece past a cutter. Anything in the way of the cutter is removed. How straight that cut is depends on how straight the path of the workpiece was. Machine tools rely on straight ways to guide the workpiece. In essence, the machine tool is copying the way's surface onto the workpiece.
However, this is less so for a planer. The straightness of the rail is copied to the work across-wise, but longitudinally, planers tend to be more accurate than they themselves are. This is because the workpieces are usually long and so can flex slightly under their own weight. The planer's cutting tool is the same distance from the planer's own ways throughout the stroke and the planer table and work can flex to maintain contact with the planer ways, but the thickness is maintained. And since the finished part is flexible it can be leveled by jacking at various points to make the planed ways straight. Then hand scraping to a straight edge completes the process. Planers are also a bit like a road grader in that the blade being in the center of two sets of wheels halves the error at each pass. Obviously, these explanations have limits. My planer was made on a planer, and coming off the machine it was probably a little straighter than its maker. Planers are made to create straight ways.
I think your question might have actually been, how did they make the first planer? An accurate planer can be made by hand using a straight edge. Whatever tools that are at hand can be used to speed up the process, but one could do it with a chisel, file and scraper along with some measuring tools to keep things parallel and fitting. And a straight edge can be made by making three of them at once, scraping each to another in sequence until all are straight enough for the purpose.
A small planer can be used to make a larger one by segmenting the bed and table, and scraping them together to make the fit straight, for example. Very long planers have segmented beds.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 That's a beautiful explanation, you have explained it beautifully, yes they can of course be made by hand but they all were made from and stem from the lathe, the first ever and fundamental machine tool ever made, the only machine capable of producing itself, turning between centres is still the go to technique today when maximum high precision is needed. Its a clever way to achieve extremely high precision on one axis, the only way to achieve a perfectly straight surface, which is why the lathe is king.
Very satisfying 😴
what does a job like that cost? I have a southbend 16 that needs it done.
Awesome!
Why not milling?
If all you had were a milling machine, it could be used, but for several reasons it is probably the last resort if a grinder and planer were the other to options.
1) The surface finish of planing using the method shown ought to be far superior to milling. There are no successive tooth cuts, it is all one broad cut the entire length. This alone will probably save a couple of hours in scraping time.
2) Although not a great consideration, planing is quicker. Cutting time is probably twice as fast as milling. But cut time is only about a quarter of the job time. Though it may take longer to setup the job on a milling machine, too.
3) If the milling machine is a saddle type, then it is likely that the planer would cut straighter. And straightness really is an enormous time saver when it comes to scraping. If the mill were a bed type, where the table was supported like a planer table for its length, then the straightness could be expected to be as good as a planer.
However, having said this, there are not many planers left and it would be difficult to find one in good enough shape to do the job. Way grinders have taken their place and are the usual method to straighten a worn lathe bed. Further, since about 1970, many lathes have hardened beds and these must be ground, not planed.
But way grinders have problems of their own, particularly with controlling the enormous heat they produce - about 50% of which enters the workpeice and needs to be so immediately removed. If operated well they can do a superb job, but if not, the bed may not be straight at all. Personally, if I had both a way grinder and a planer, I would choose the planer unless the ways were hardened. And unless the milling machine were a bed type, I would weary of using it at all.
-Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I watched lot of videos on Abom79 channel about shaper. I know the finishing is superior to milling, but I thought maybe easier to get the cuts then do grinding, just like in the factory refurbishment.
Ok. Thx!
@@BMRStudio Ah, I see. Since proper setup is so time consuming, I would not want to do it twice. However, doing so would mean that only a very little would need to be ground off, thus limiting the heating problem.
-Rees
Pretty wild to actually SEE how much wear there is.
I wish I could get this done on my clausing (1st lathe) just learning a new skill at 51.
So cool, is there anywhere to learn this? I imagine working in a machine shop you'll never encounter machines like this anymore
I have written a paper on planer work, but I don't know of much else. There is a 2 volume set of books, "Machine Shop Practice", that has a chapter on planers. It's a good book.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 thanks, i'll see if i can find them in europe
Hmm.
What's the largest size of bed you can accomodate?
I might have an odd job for ya.
8 feet by 2 feet.
It's basically a giant super rigid shaper, the modern version would be a multi axis cnc surface grinder but I would bet the surface finish on this would make a better bearing surface for oil to stick to.
That thing had a hell of a dip in it
is it feasible to spray deposit metal on worn out bed then plane?
I assume that you are referring to a thermal metal spray. It is a reasonable question and there are several reasons why I think that using thermal metal spray would impractical:
1) The local heating of the bed ways would warp it enough that straightening would be necessary. Besides being difficult (I am not sure how one would even go about it) the bed would contain locked-in stresses due to the uneven heating, such that as material was removed during the cutting, the bed would continually move as the stresses were being removed by the cutting. This would make it impossible to machine a straight bed without performing a stress relieving operation first.
2) Stress relieving the bed after metal spray would warp the bed as the locked in stresses were released. Remember, the stresses being applied during the spray process are being resisted by the bed and so as they are both heated, they both deform to relieve, meaning the bed will not be the same shape as before. Also, during the stress relief the bed would need to be very carefully supported because at such temperatures its own weight becomes one of the stresses that are being relieved, and the support itself would likely change during the heating. The bed would likely be unusable afterwards.
3) The metal spray being applied would be of a different machineability than the cast iron of the bed and therefore, in order to get a straight surface upon planing, the spray would need to be uninterrupted. That is, the cast iron could never show through.
4) Such would also need to be the case because it is likely that the surface cast iron would have been heated over the 1350F critical temperature, over which a very slow cooling would be necessary to prevent the iron from turning into very hard and unmachinable martensite.
Now, the surface could be ground instead of planing. This would get around the hardness and uneven machinability problem, however the distortion problem would remain. In addition there would likely be a feathering of the spray material at the transition areas and these areas would likely have unreliable adhesion (and wear) qualities.
@@reesacheson5577 thank you so much for your answer I had no idea this was such a complex topic.i learned so much.thsnk you again sir.
How much does this cost to get done for one of these?
These seem to take about 5 hours to do and shop rate is $50 an hr,
That sounds very fair I wish you were closer to Chicago area. You basically have a new lathe after that. Does the carriage have to be machined too?
@@alanswanson5642 The carriage will always need to be fitted to the bed. This may entail just scraping, but in this case the carriage is being machined by the owner.
It was worn so badly that the owner is filling the carriage ways with a plastic to raise it up to maintain leadscrew alignment.
This is awesome!
So what am I seeing here when the shavings / chips appear to turn to powder towards the last cuts ? Have we cut through the harden area and are now into the soft powdery casting or are you taking much lighter cuts?
This bed is not hardened. The reason the chips diminish is your second guess - that the depth of cut has been reduced.
When there is a lot to remove the tool is advanced into the cut at a rate of about 0.005" per stroke. As the finished size is approached the rate becomes less to 0.001", and then 0.0005". Finally there is usually a spring cut where the tool is not advanced at all. With each of these last three stages the chip gets thinner until the last one is merely dust.
Note that the tool advance of 0.005" is a horizontal movement. Because the way is at 45 degrees that becomes a 0.0035 depth of cut (0.005 x 0.707). The same goes for the lesser final cuts.
Rees
Is the ways hardened? How would you machine hardened ways?
This question seems to come up a lot. The ways in the video are not hard. If they had been the bed would need to be ground.
Hello how much would a job like this cost. I have a Logan lathe I need this done to.
This job took 5 hrs.
With regard to getting planing work done, my mind is failing and I have decided that I should no longer be taking on planer jobs. However, my son now owns the shop, but it is not his primary job. I have received a lot of requests lately for planing and have spoken to him about doing these. He is interested and is willing to try to fit them into his work schedule. Because I have more planing experience, he would be doing the job, but I would be there with him to help. I am eager to see this planer continue to work.
The first step is to collect the email addresses of those interested so that we can discuss how to go about this. If still interested please use the address in the ABOUT section.
Thanks.
Rees
I would love to send my lathe to you, its working life was on board a ww2 sub, and to be honest showing its age, I have made many parts to improve it, but to get this done would be the the dogs bollocks, little UK phrase for you, all the best for the future
I have a heavy ten south bend. Can you plane it? How much? Thanks!
I can. The cost is $50/hr and a bed takes about 4 to 5 hours. You do realize that the ways will need to be scraped afterwards, and that that would be your job.
Finally, the shop is in Alstead, NH, 03602. That my be quite a hike for you. Reach me by the email in ABOUT if you would like to converse more on the subject.
--Rees
Professional machining, such a renovation would also be useful for my lathe.
what exactly makes this different than shaping?
This question comes up from time to time and I answer it simply. However this time I plan to delve in a bit deeper.
From the perspective of the workpiece, a planer and a shaper are the same: a reciprocating cutter traversing a workpiece to create a plane surface.
A shaper accomplishes this by reciprocating the cutter, and the workpiece is traversed under it, while a planer performs the opposite - reciprocating the workpiece and traversing the cutter. Notable are some shapers built in the late 1800's where the workpiece is mounted on a stationary floor plate and the cutter is both reciprocated AND traversed.
Shapers are good for short stroking applications. Their short-coming being that their work table is small and therefore setup possibly difficult. But as the required stroke length increases, the practicality of a shaper diminishes. A long stroke makes it difficult to build and guide a ram that will not sag. Flatness relies on the unchangingly straight line of the cutter. By the time the stroke reaches about 30" a planer is likely a better tool.
Planers, on the other hand, become advantageous with long workpieces. The distance between the cutting tool and the way that the table slides on immediately below the tool remains unchanged throughout the length of the cut. This means that, if the work is in contact with the table for its length, the thickness the work is cut to remains unchanged along its length. Within reasonable limits this is true even if the way is not straight because the lengths involved allow for sagging. The table will sag to fit the ways. Likewise the completed work, being long, will tend to sag into its supports, allowing jacking into a level plane when in use. (Note that because the planer has planed its own table, it to follows the rule of uniform thickness. So clamping to it insures the work will be uniform, as well.)
But this simple concept becomes more complex in the case of a lathe bed with no central support pad, wherein the bed is supported only at its ends. In this case, what the planer table does at the stroke extremes affects the thickness being cut because the lathe bed is bridging over the way's surface under the cutter. So in this case it does indeed matter what condition the planer is in. However, it also means that the end-error is halved at the cutter because, at the extreme, the cutter is half way between the two ends. I call this the Road Grader effect - with the grader's blade mounted half-way between the wheels, when a wheel rises over a bump the blade rises only half that amount. Given this, although arguable, I think that a planer should be able to produce work that is straighter than itself.
Rees
Whew! What a lot of wear.
Какие поверхности были приняты за базу, при установке на стол строгального станка?
"What surfaces were taken as a base when installing a planer on the table?"
Re-wording the question as: "What surface is used as a reference on the lathe bed?"
As stated in the description, I set the bed on parallels so that the bed sags. Then I cut the top edges. The bed is flipped and those edges are clamped to the table and the base is planed. Flipping it upright again, the base becomes the reference. Then I line up the ways to the planer.
I hope that you can understand. I am sorry I do not speak Russian.
Glad to see your still at it! I have a 1945 Sheldon SWQE 44 ,but im not sure if the ways are hardened or not as its has a lot of wear in the middle as they usually do lol if they can be redone i would surely set up an appointment to have it done. I'm not far from you here in Springfield MA
Please email me at the address in ABOUT. As I said to Uncle Matt, above, I am not sure I should be doing any more planing.
Great video, how do you keep the center line of the v-ways? So the head stock and tail stock seat in
I guess the better question would be how do you know what the center line should be?
@@claas90017 The "center line" is not what's important but the axis. The center could vary quite a bit without consequence if all way surfaces were parallel. And that is what a planer does, makes them parallel.
But likely your question was really "how do you find the axis". Usually the unused back side of the bed way is straight enough to find the vertical plane axis that the bed was planed in during manufacture. The for the horizontal, the base likely is not far off and might be used, or the top surface flats on the Vees are an indication. However, things are not always so straight forward. For example, the bed may have warped in either axis and then the task is it figure an axis that requires the least removal of material, or creates the least amount of work that will follow the planing.
As I noted in the description, the bed sag must be accounted for, and while not directly related to the axis question, is related because an axis is a straight line.
You also ask about keeping the headstock and tailstock in alignment, or perhaps getting them to seat correctly. They will be in alignment because the planer makes the bedways linear and parallel. Placing the two parts on these ways necessarily lines them up.
Getting them to seat correctly is a little trickier. These are usually Vee-To-Flat ways and so both the Vee surfaces and the flat must be in complete contact. To do this the bed is first measured at an unworn area and and the dimension is repeated during planing. The measurement can be seen being done at 15:30 using a small Vee-Block over the Vee and an adjustable parallel on the flat way. The parallel has been set to the original dimension and here the flat is being lowered until the indicator will read zero.
I think that answers your question. if not let me know and I will try again.
Rees
I got it thanks. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I have shared your video will all my buddies. We have wondered how this process was done
Thanks again.
It eliminates the need of honing, Does it?
The bed must be "scraped" after planing to provide the smooth slippery surface required for such sliding parts.
-Rees
V good my question is how do you adjust the tailstock for height? how do you machine it?
The tailstock drops because of its own wear, not because of the bed wear or bed machining.
However, its center has likely lowered. If too low, the reasonable remedy is to shim it at the junction between itself and its base. The other solution would be to machine the headstock to lower it the same as the tailstock has been lowered. Or, I suppose make a new tailstock base.
You asked how to machine the base. Using a Vee-Block the height difference between the Vee and the flat on the bed is determined. Then that height is maintained on the base using a round bar in its Vee. The procedure requires a bit more space to describe than I have here now. Its not complicated, just wordy.
Rees
@@reesacheson5577 I get that bit but the worn bed will alter the profile shape of the flat/v of the tailstock so doing all that work and scraping it then it would be daft not to dress the tail stock...Like changing the oil and not the filter. Yes what you take off you must add some where.
@@theessexhunter1305 I think I understand your concern to be that some material would need to be removed from the tailstock, if not only to fit it - and that would lower it. Even if it was only by a tenth. And it would likely have worn quite a bit more than that. So, yes, correct.
But that does not necessarily then require that the amount be made up by shimming. If the lathe is a small one a 0.005 or even 0.010" difference could reasonably be tolerated without measurably affecting turning. A larger lathe could function with considerably more.
But it is easy to place the shims.
Did I understand you correctly? If not I can try again.
@@reesacheson5577 being a tool maker milling/turning/ since 77 also sub contracting to firms. I get all of it. Dads old lathe is close to a 100 yrs old so I have to account for a lot of wear...
Old lathe
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Sub contract lathe
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Sub contract milling
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