I've been struggling with this script for months. I even hired a researcher. Trying to distill this was really difficult, as ever there were some technicalities I had to gloss over, but I think this is as close as I can reasonably get!
Greater London (ie. the area we usually refer to when talking about London) also isn’t a city. The City of London (ie. the financial district) and the City of Westminster (both of which are boroughs of Greater London) are cities, but the metropolis we usually think of as London isn’t. Also, I did some small amount of research into this as part of my PhD and I think I’m right in saying that having a cathedral or university has never been an automatic qualifier for becoming a city, it’s just that (in a precedent I think set by Henry V) places with cathedrals tended to be awarded city status. So it was a convention rather than a hard rule.
I thought city of London was it's own thing and not part of greater London borough. That's why they have their own mayor, planning rules, voting system etc. And that's the reason they could build skyscrapers, because they weren't bound by the same rules.
@@Robert-cu9bm The City of London is its own thing. Both in terms of being a city and its own administrative region. They even have their own police force.
Tokyo is quite similar, and it is for that reason that I take issue when people claim that Tokyo is the world's largest city, with a staggering population of 32 million. The people that make that claim never stop to question what a city actually is.
@@tams805 That's what I thought. When I was working in that area, one morning I came out of bank station to be greeted by a amazing carriage with horses. They even put sawdust down on the road for the horses.
A kind of opposite story: Gibraltar recently applied to be a city to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee. They refused to put it on the applications list because after doing research they discovered... It had already been granted City status, and had had it for some 180 years!
*Interesting fact* There's a sunken WW1 German submarine stuck in the mud in the Medway River (UB122) and a Soviet cold war submarine in Rochester (Foxtrot B49 U475)
@@martijn9568 the Medway river was one of the principal harbours for the Royal Navy right up until the start of the 20th century when capital ships got too big. The Dockyard at Chatham was a major base, and didn't close until the 1980s. The infamous Raid on the Medway did indeed happen there.
@@JRush374 No, they deliberately targeted the Medway, because some of the Royal Navy's largest ships were there. Rather embarrassingly they sailed up largely unchallenged (except for Upnor Castle which fired until they run out of shot), captured several ships and sailed away again.
It's funny, because I've heard of Rochester, but never heard of Medway. Seems absolutely like that whole merging into bigger areas was messed up. In Sweden, the concept of "city" was removed in 1971. Everything became just municipalities. This annoyed Stockholm, so in 1983, Stockholm municipality simply renamed itself "Stockholm Stad" (Stockholm City). That pissed Malmö and Göteborg off, and they also promptly renamed themselves to be cities. Today 14 municipalities n Sweden claim to be cities.
Classic bureaucracy. In the state of Massachusetts, many of the state's counties were abolished, with an attempt to get rid of all of them. However, some decided they wanted to remain, so now about half of our state is a part of some county, and the other half isn't
@@benfll 290 municipalities based in 21 counties. Each municipality covers various towns and villages and is effectively a borough council, much like in the UK.
If I were the British monarch, I would decide to abuse my theoretical power by arbitrarily making places into cities. Not only would this be hilarious, it would let the UK deal with the whole "what if the monarch decides to actually use those powers that they haven't used in ages and we kinda pretend they don't have anymore" issue on a fairly small scale. But I'd mainly do it because it would be hilarious.
Haha, if I could I would reform city statushood and make the more logical, amalgamate towns that makes sense to combine etc and withdraw some from their cityhood. The UK can be confusing with where a city starts or a town starts because multiple historic villages/towns have all grown into each other and essentially have become one such as the Medway towns in this video, Newcastle/Gatsehead and Manchester/Salford and so much more
I live in Rochester, if you ask any of the locals nobody will be that bothered that this place is no longer a city, but its cool to know that Tom Scott himself made a video about my hometown, i knew from the title alone that the video was going to be about Rochester given this place's history.
As soon as you mentioned the minutes, this sprung to mind… Sir Humphrey: “It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t, so it wasn’t.“
It's cool to see my home town though on a Tom Scott video, like these places I go past everyday, and then seeing it on a channel that gets millions of views, exposing it to them all.
@@84elmer technically not even a town, it's a "ward" (fancy term for zone) now, as it's an administrative ward of Medway, borough would also work.. But then the title of town isn't legally protected so they can claim that if they want it. Personally I'd refer to it as "The place formerly known as the city of Rochester", makes postal addresses a bit long unfortunately.
I lived in Rochester, and I have family there too. Literally only minutes away from the very castle and high street (well, if you can call Historic Rochester's modest shops a high street) you showed in the video. Know the area so well, it was like being back there. I knew part of the story of why it wasn't a city, but it was good to get more details on it. I never understood why they didn't just reapply for city status later, and now it all makes sense.
Polite tip to foreigners - not all of us like to be called British. Say that to a Welshman or a Scot, let alone an Ulsterman, and you'll see what I mean! Me, I'm English, thanks.
Tom didn't mention the weather, just said it was windy. Windy isn't weather, it's just a constant state of being. Like rain. Warm and sunny is weather!
As an example of how arbitrary the list is, I come from Bolton which is larger than all but ~17 cities, there's 69 in total ;) in the UK but it is still a town, said to be the largest town in europe by area (by population is different). It used to be even bigger 100 years ago as well, but was never made one. However St David's with a population of 1,600 is a city.
Some of them aren't even in cities. They're just kinda hanging out in the middle of the countryside, probably on some very tall hill that once held some kind of strategic significance, and there's so many of them that nobody even cares that much, so they're just sitting there and quietly crumbling. I've got a piece of stone brick in my room, took it from one such castle last summer. The castle was built in the 13th century, so that little piece of masonry could've realistically been placed there more than 700 years ago. Now it's mine.
@@generalrubbish9513 I once broke off a piece of brick from roman times and took it with me. There are heaps of them lying around, you just have to know where to look. I'm from Austria btw.
Still appreciating the subtitles, thank you, Tom! I would totally love to hear the scrapped intro about historical definitions of a city as its own bonus video! Love that kind of trivia and there's no one I trust more to provide only the truth on such a rumour-riddled topic! Your impression of the queen was amusing if not convincing! I'd love an excuse to hear you use it a lot more! And finally, I'm always glad when I watch right up until the end of the video when the playback bar runs out. It's such a treat to watch you break character and get to hear your little asides. They feel so candid and it's like a look at the secret real Tom!
@@DoiInthanon1897 Planning to build my own as a cohousing project sometime in the next 10 years. Assuming the economy doesn't spiral out of control, of course.
@Yeast Yeast What do you mean? I'm from the USA, but none of America has castles like England does. So the same applies to anyone on either continent. Though, in parts of South and Central America they do have cool ruins instead.
My favourite bit came a few years later where Medway started calling themselves "City of Medway" on signage and the like, but because they weren't on the list, they got told off by Advertising Standards.
I live IN Rochester! So sad I missed you! I go to the castle grounds every other day for a walk! Interesting point about the castle… one if it’s 4 towers is round not square because it was mined under and destroyed during a siege! They rebuilt it round because castle design had improved by that point and engineers of the time had realised that round towers resist bombardment better! What a privilege to have a video filmed in my home town! Thanks Tom!
The city I grew up in, Layton, Utah, USA, was the largest and most commercially viable city the the county for as long as I can remember. Kaysville, the next city south, was seen as a sleepy bedroom community with a few local stores and little else other than some farmland. Imagine my surprise when I found out that Layton, now the largest city in the county, had sued Kaysville in court for independence.
This reminds me of my Town of Gilbert, Arizona. Gilbert has grown from around 5,000 people to around 270,000 people over the last 30 years but deliberately decided to stay incorporated as a town and not a city in order to sound more associated with small town, family community, and stay tied to its farming roots. As far as I know it's the largest town in the US and I'd be curious to know of other large towns like Rochester and Gilbert around the world.
Towns mean different things in different states. In some, it is just the second level subdivision, after county. Hempstead in New York (Long Island) is a town with over 700,000 people.
I live not far from there and had no idea that it was still a town. I just assumed it was a city like nearby Chandler and Mesa. Meanwhile I grew up in a city with a population of 8,000. Just one of the neighborhood developments in Gilbert could probably house that entire population...
"A city is a city if its on the government list of cities" - THANK YOU! I've been trying to tell people this for years when the "What is a city in the UK?" debate comes up. Its amazing how many people still think its about cathedrals...
@@reachandler3655 I have a very clear memory of one of my primary school teachers asking "What is the one thing a city has, that a town doesn't?" and spending a good 5-10 minutes having us guess with nobody getting it right. We were saying everything from shopping centres to train stations. Then somebody finally shouted out "Cathedrals" and we were told that was the correct answer. 🤦♂
Of course it's about cathedrals - anywhere that has a cathedral is a city. Check the map. Wells, for instance, wouldn't possibly qualify as a 'city' by any other means. OK, so in modern times, the word has taken on a more 'American' meaning (large town) and we now have so-called cities that don't have cathedrals, but I challenge you to find one English place that has a cathedral which wasn't also called a city.
Don't be daft, that opening background with the walls and the bench is hella picturesque! I hope you're well, Tom, and I wish you all the best, been a long-time fan of your videos!
Wym "Sorry that the background isn't quite as picturesque as it usually is." 0:10, that is a really nice background and probably one of my favs on your channel ngl, like I'm not kidding I genuinely love it!
"There's a storm coming tomorrow - it would've been worse!" Indeed. Several of my friends who live in the same part of England have been losing power repeatedly during the last few days and had to cut up trees that fell into their driveways. I think that counts as worse 😂
I loved this one. Reminds me of Census Towns in India. India has two different criteria for calling a place 'urban' - you can either be on a government list (a 'statutory' urban area i.e. urban area 'by statute') or you can be classified as a town during the census once every ten years (which has a very specific set of criteria to be fulfilled, - population, major industries and so on). The trouble is that there are a whole bunch of places all over the country which used to be villages but because of population growth, occupational change and increased density, have turned into urban areas as per the census. However, the government hasn't yet put them on the list. Hence "census towns" - towns as per the census, but not as per government statute. Bit of an issue because India has separate governance structures for rural and urban areas. So you have dozens of census towns, looking and feeling like urban areas in every way, but they don't have municipal corporations because they haven't yet been recognised by statute. Even more confusing is that many census towns don't want a statute. Being classified as rural allows them to access rural development schemes and programmes which are much more generous than the urban ones, so there are times when census towns have actually resisted the statute.
There's also issue with taxation. Being part of a city leads to increased taxes(such as land revenue), which villages don't want. So there are many villages that look and feel like a city, but operate under rural government organisations.
I grew up in Medway and there was always the kind of amusing story that we would have been a city, but the council didn’t do the paperwork. Never realised it was actually a true story!!!
Fascinating video. There are Rochesters scattered all over the United States (I've lived in one), and I've always wondered what sort of amazing city back in the UK they were named after. Turns out it's maybe not even technically a town anymore?
Born in Chatham here. And my Dad was Leader of Chelmsford Council when it became a city in 2012. The change was, as Tom says, enormous. Chelmsford has received so much investment simply by being a City...a shame about Rochester...going there in the summer.
Here in Pennsylvania, we have a hilariously complicated system of classifying any and all settlements of any size. There are nine classes of county, two classes of townships, one and only one town, 956 boroughs, and 56 cities divided into four classes of which three only have one city in them.
Although conveniently it's very similar to the complicated system used to categorise Eagles fans into who/what what was to blame for last year's failure to get to the Superbowl
Meanwhile, in Virginia, cities are just a figment of the imagination, with, like, 3* exceptions. *definitely more than three, but still, most cities and towns have no municipal authority, and only exist in people’s minds
Hi, I have no idea if you will answer this or not, but HERE GOES IT! I am a creative writing student and I am super interested in finding out more about how this sort of thing is done. What I want to ask you is this... How did you learn about this and how might someone like do the same?
I always love these weird bits of legislation. We've got a few fun ones in Canada too-greenwood in BC is a city despite only having 600 people, because in BC you need 5000 to legally be a city, and it never loses that distinction even if the population drops (as greenwoods did decades ago once the mines closed). Flin Flon is split between the borders of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and so while it has a pop. of about 5000, Saskatchewan only has full jurisdiction over about 200 of them. Lastly, because quebec is a nightmare, and just kind of classifies whatever however it wants, we get the city of L'Île-Dorval, which has FIVE people living in it.
all cities and towns in quebec are classified as "villes" in both languages, aren't they? the word means town or city so you'd have to choose how to translate it every time otherwise. though they do have villages, which would be more appropriate, or just plain old municipalities
My face when I saw this in my Subs list... sitting just along the river, having sat on that *exact* bench before. Some of my fellow Rochester residents are mighty bitter about the loss of City status. Others, well, they're just happy we don't live in *other Medway town, delete as applicable*. Hope you got to have a good look around Tom!
I lived in rochester until 2011, I can totally believe the borough council forgot the paperwork. For a long time they called themselves "Rochester, City of Europe." To get that status, they took Rochester and put "City of Europe" after it. It got shot down rather hard when it got discovered.
@@ZT1ST Is Rochester not still in Europe? It wasn't called "Rochester, city of the EU" now was it? It's not like we floated off into the middle of the Atlantic now is it?
@@lordgemini2376 I mean, I guess technically, but Brexit has it leave the *European Union*, so it fundamentally acts differently than the rest of Europe. "Rochester Upon Medway, City Of Europe, Not The Europe You Think Of When We Say Europe, It's Complicated" might be stretching the whole nickname though.
I lived in Rochester in a flat opposite the cathedral until quite recently. Great place. There was a consultation on whether to establish a town council for Rochester approximately 2 years ago. As I recall, and despite strong support from Labour councillors and residents, Medway Council declined to proceed.
That background was actually really nice. You're in front of a castle wall, which reminds your viewers that this is a place with a lot of history. And the flowers tell us this is not an abandoned place, people still live there and want it to look nice because they still feel pride about it all. Which fits very well, thematically, with the story being told.
Having lived here in Medway for the vast majority of my life, this story gives me equal parts pride and embarrassment. Interestingly, considering Strood was one of the reasons for the original rejigging, it is generally considered part of Rochester now (and Rainham a part of Gillingham). It is Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester which are generally considered to be THE Medway Towns.
I remember exactly what happened, I was at the meeting! It was down to advice from the Chief Executive at the time. We were advised that it was not required and there was a concern that Gillingham Borough would also do this because they did not like the Unitary Council
I am from Medway (born in Chatham) and even I never knew Rochester was no longer a City! My Dad used to regularly (and very happily) say to me that Rochester was one if Britain's smallest cities BECAUSE it had a Cathedral. Being little at the time I was enthralled to know I was living next to a city! I just find it quite a shame that two once very important towns (Chatham and Rochester) are now nothing more than a word on a map, or that place "yonder hill"... How the mighty have fallen!
Living in New England and more specifically Massachusetts, there is a town right next to me named Medway. Lovely little place. The presumed namesake across the pond looks lovely too. A bit windier, but lovely
Many places in America are named after places in the UK... cba to list them all though, kinda shocked you didn't change the names after you lot went deus vult on our arses
4:47 - The Label of "City" being desirable is interesting. In Ontario, Canada we actually have the opposite, Suburban areas that legally should be "City" or the less interesting "Regional Municipality" that have special exceptions from the naming rules to call themselves "County" or "District Municipality" to sound more rural even when they legally aren't that. For Ontarians reading this, the places who got exceptions from the naming rules; - Oxford "County" is a Regional Municipality - The "District Municipality" of Muskoka is a Regional Municipality - Prince Edward "County" is a Single Tier Municipality - Haldimand "County" is a Single Tier Municipality - Norfolk "County" is a Single Tier Municipality - The "County" of Brant is a Single Tier Municipality
Then you've got something like Manchester, which is technically two cities (either side of a river, like Budapest or Ankh-Morpork) and several towns mashed together into a conurbation that often gets called Manchester as a whole.
There's a similar bit of lore going on in the north of Portugal, where there's an area that's deemed big enough to be called a City, but they refused the moniker and still call it a Town. Most people nearby attribute it to the risk of it losing its cherished "oldest town in the country" title without becoming the oldest city in the process, but as they say, only God knows.
If you look carefully around the castle area you’ll still see old plaques referring to the “City of Rochester Upon Medway”. My home town and I love it!
An alternative to charter trustees would have been to erect a civil parish - there are eight such civil parishes with city status. Curiously despite being a city Rochester didn't have a mayor. Instead its civic leader was the Admiral of the River Medway, or as per the charter of Henry VI in 1446 “Admiral of the Waters of the Medway from Sherenesse to Hawkewode.”
@@larryg3326 The Mayor of Medway now has the title and the Admiralty Court is a committee of the Council. The remaining function seems to be eating a big dinner once a year.
As someone who lives in the Midlands and has an obsession with history I can safely say I have never heard of Medway and it is still Rochester in my mind.
It's...messy really. For example I'd say to people elsewhere in the UK "I'm from Medway" (Gillingham, specifically), but when I'm talking about the place itself, I would call it "the Medway towns", because people generally still distinguish between the towns themselves. It matters which one you come from! In terms of sending letters, we still use the original town names as well. It's such a massive area it would be hard not to. But equally, there's one street where half the road is in Chatham, and the other half is Gillingham...and I mean lengthways. Odds are one town, evens the other. From an admin point of view they really are all just one big urban sprawl at this point.
"The purpose of minutes is not to record events, it is to protect people. Minutes are there to reflect what people thought they should have said, with the benefit of hindsight." - One Sir Humphrey
You are one of the last youtubers who makes videos that are not unnecessarily long. Congrats! Would love to see more videos about old british technology.
In Germany we have a small town called "Stadt Blankenberg" ("City of Blankenberg"). It has 606 inhabitants now, but was a city until 1805, with all the stuff around it belonging to it
And today Stadt Blankenberg is a part of Hennef which is called the "city of a hundred villages" because of the many parts that are far away from each other.
In Canada (Ontario Specifically) once a town reaches 7500 residents, it can apply to the provincial government to be designated a city. There's no other criteria. Oakville has over 190k residents, but they prefer to be called a town so never bothered getting it changed.
In Alberta, a town needs 10,000 people to apply, but there are currently 10 towns with more than enough people who simply haven’t applied for city status (out of a total of 106 towns). The town of Cochrane has over 32k residents.
As soon as you said Rochester, I got excited. We have a few Rochester's in the United States, but our popular, and also similarly windy one is in New York.
The British really like their governance technicalities with centuries of history that makes everything complicated, don't they. I really don't want to be a British bureaucrat with this huge collection of exemptions. Tom could probably sustain his channel with just these.
What exactly is complicated? Or maybe a better question: What exactly do you think could be simplified? Or can you point to a country that makes it simpler?
@@Jehty_ I think it should be size based. Village-Town-City. Low population and just a few buildings = Village. Larger population with more buildings and services = Town. And a huge population with alot of buildings and services= City.
Hey, I'm from Rochester! I always was told that Rochester lost its City status because of an almagamation of the Medway Towns and that because it was no longer a singular "town/city" it couldn't be considered as such. Cool to know it was an administration error!
It will forever be in my heart as the place where several of my classmates tried to deface centuries old architecture and got my school permabanned from visiting ever again
I was literally researching what a city is yesterday, I think there's two lists, the list of cities from the government which is decided by decision of the queen/gov, the other is the list used by the house of commons, and that's sorted by population. Search terms :"City & Town Classification of Constituencies & Local Authorities House of Commons"
i used to live in rochester and recognize all of these places you've shown immediately including places where friends, family and myself have worked. this is just one of the many stories rochester (and the rest of medway) has to tell, you may have noticed while you were around the castle that one of the turrets is round while the others are square, there is a story for that and there are historic naval sites all over the place too. tom, there are lots more stories to tell, please tell them.
@@tams805 This. If it mattered in some way, like effecting taxes or access to resources or voting power, then it would be a tragic example of bureaucracy run amok; as is, it is just politicians arguing over bragging rights.
It is a strange process. Chichester is my nearest City (not far from Rochester on a national scale). Cathedral? check. Population? about 23000. The town I live in has over 5 times that population. Even village next door that claims to be the largest village in England has similar or bigger population! Chichester is smaller than both in terms of geographic area.
I don't live in England and I've never been to England but I absolutely love global historical tidbits like these. I don't know why they just tickle the particular historical itch that I have
As an American just shy of 5,000 miles away there is no godly reason why I should have learned everything I've learned about British local government's petty bureaucratic urban planning reshuffles of the 1970's and 1990's. I blame this entirely on Tom Scott and Jay Foreman.
The BIG thing that wasn't mentioned here which I think is actually the real kicker for Rochester (or Rochester-upon-Medway, or Medway) is exactly WHY Rochester had city status originally. City status for most cities was/is conferred by a Letters Patent nominally from the Monarch, and theoretically Medway may at some point acquire such a letters patent. Rochester however was one of 20 exceptions, 20 cities who didn't have a Letters Patent declaring them cities, but rather they existed as cities by being cities since "Time Immemorial", since before such good recordkeeping and procedures existed, since virtually, forever. One other thing: There was a tendency for settlements that contain a diocese cathedral to be/become a city, it wasn't a requirement on paper, but was (for at least two times in history at least) tradition in England & Wales. These even holds true from the 20 ancient cities, they aligned to 19 of the 22 ancient dioceses (the other 3 being in Wales). So I think to simply say the belief that "cathedral = city historically" is a myth is itself misleading, because there is a basis for that.
Hey fellow Medway folk! Was so strange to be scrolling through my homepage and see the thumbnail for this video and be thinking "wait a minute...that castle looks familiar!"
I remember when this happened. I used to work for them when it happened but luckily wasn’t part of this fiasco. There was a blame game when this happened back then and it comes up each time they throw money at trying to apply for City status.
St Davids, with a population in the low thousands (depending on the time of year), has city status for historic reasons. As it was a major pilgrimage site in Britain in the middle ages. I believe I read that there was a papal statement that two pilgrimages to St Davids were worth one to Rome.
See, this is a weird one, because I'm from Maidstone, barely twenty minutes from all the places Tom's talking about, my mum's churches are in the diocese of Rochester, so it's a little surreal having a video about all these places that I've lived around for my whole life...
I get that, it's like whenever I see my microscopic island hometown on a map next to where a content creator is talking about. Oversimplified's "The Pig War" physically shows my hometown on a map.
@@j0seph487 Really? I had no idea it was that big. I guess there are a lot of surrounding bits that are technically still part of the town though, so I guess it does make sense. Who knows, maybe one day it will be!
I've been struggling with this script for months. I even hired a researcher. Trying to distill this was really difficult, as ever there were some technicalities I had to gloss over, but I think this is as close as I can reasonably get!
I liked your "Queen Elizabeth". It made me laugh. Great video as always. Not what I asked for, but what I didn't know I needed, until I watched it.
Hey it turned out great.
Scheduling videos, four days ahead, clever. I just sit there like a fool waiting xD
i live in rochester, i knew they lost their city status at some point. Thanks for this intelectual video!
Just dont tell Rochester its not even really a town, they are still struggling with the idea of not being a city!
I live in the town next to Rochester! I will stand where Tom stood and be, like, "wow, this is where Tom stood!"
Nice
Which side? Strood or chatham? Or borstal?
Make a video about it
The Yorkshire one last week, I am certain I saw Tom. I am certain!!
Goals
Tom Scott: "I was going to explain the history of what makes a city a city in the UK, but honestly, it was a bit dull."
Map Men: "Challenge accepted!"
The Crossover we all want to see now because of you
were the men! and here the map! map men, map men, map map map men men.
Greater London (ie. the area we usually refer to when talking about London) also isn’t a city. The City of London (ie. the financial district) and the City of Westminster (both of which are boroughs of Greater London) are cities, but the metropolis we usually think of as London isn’t.
Also, I did some small amount of research into this as part of my PhD and I think I’m right in saying that having a cathedral or university has never been an automatic qualifier for becoming a city, it’s just that (in a precedent I think set by Henry V) places with cathedrals tended to be awarded city status. So it was a convention rather than a hard rule.
I thought city of London was it's own thing and not part of greater London borough.
That's why they have their own mayor, planning rules, voting system etc.
And that's the reason they could build skyscrapers, because they weren't bound by the same rules.
I was in high school in the mid 90s and I swear we were taught in higher geography that cities needed a cathedral
@@Robert-cu9bm The City of London is its own thing. Both in terms of being a city and its own administrative region. They even have their own police force.
Tokyo is quite similar, and it is for that reason that I take issue when people claim that Tokyo is the world's largest city, with a staggering population of 32 million. The people that make that claim never stop to question what a city actually is.
@@tams805
That's what I thought.
When I was working in that area, one morning I came out of bank station to be greeted by a amazing carriage with horses.
They even put sawdust down on the road for the horses.
A kind of opposite story:
Gibraltar recently applied to be a city to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee.
They refused to put it on the applications list because after doing research they discovered...
It had already been granted City status, and had had it for some 180 years!
So did they get some more privileges or?
Lmao
Another reason the Spanish can´t have it.
*Interesting fact* There's a sunken WW1 German submarine stuck in the mud in the Medway River (UB122) and a Soviet cold war submarine in Rochester (Foxtrot B49 U475)
Isn't this also the place where the Dutch stole a capital ship from in 1676?
Or was that a different Medway?
@@martijn9568 the Medway river was one of the principal harbours for the Royal Navy right up until the start of the 20th century when capital ships got too big. The Dockyard at Chatham was a major base, and didn't close until the 1980s. The infamous Raid on the Medway did indeed happen there.
Gottem
Were they trying to go into the Thames?
@@JRush374 No, they deliberately targeted the Medway, because some of the Royal Navy's largest ships were there. Rather embarrassingly they sailed up largely unchallenged (except for Upnor Castle which fired until they run out of shot), captured several ships and sailed away again.
It's funny, because I've heard of Rochester, but never heard of Medway. Seems absolutely like that whole merging into bigger areas was messed up.
In Sweden, the concept of "city" was removed in 1971. Everything became just municipalities.
This annoyed Stockholm, so in 1983, Stockholm municipality simply renamed itself "Stockholm Stad" (Stockholm City). That pissed Malmö and Göteborg off, and they also promptly renamed themselves to be cities. Today 14 municipalities n Sweden claim to be cities.
How many municipalities does Sweden have?
Classic bureaucracy. In the state of Massachusetts, many of the state's counties were abolished, with an attempt to get rid of all of them. However, some decided they wanted to remain, so now about half of our state is a part of some county, and the other half isn't
@@benfll 290
We used to have many, many more but the gradually merged to larger and larger units to take advantage of economies of scale
@@benfll 290 municipalities based in 21 counties. Each municipality covers various towns and villages and is effectively a borough council, much like in the UK.
i mean, no, not really true though.
GPT-3 almost exactly one year ago: "The Cliff that refuses to be a Cliff". Tom Scott now: "The City that forgot to be a City".
Tom
Blink twice if you're actually a Robot Tom who's taken over
Then find all the crosswalks in these 9 pictures
@Instagram User You know what, I'm not even going to report this as spam because of how shitty youtube moderation is. Keep at it.
oh goodness this made me realize Ive been watching Tom Scott for over a year now
@agar32 Now that you mention it: Maybe GPT-3 was talking about a guy named Cliff insisting on being called Henry…
@@ornessarhithfaeron3576well, just to let you know,atleast that bot is gone.
I hope this will bring you some peace in this madness.
Thanks to you and Jay Foreman, I now have a strange interest in the regional policy of a country I have never been to.
Come and visit us sometime, you might love it, or on the other hand you could be mildly disappointed 😎.
Rochester’s really nice if U ever do visit 😏
@@roxann222
Just don't end up in Chatham by mistake 😅
We’re a (relatively) nice place! You should visit sometime
If I were the British monarch, I would decide to abuse my theoretical power by arbitrarily making places into cities. Not only would this be hilarious, it would let the UK deal with the whole "what if the monarch decides to actually use those powers that they haven't used in ages and we kinda pretend they don't have anymore" issue on a fairly small scale. But I'd mainly do it because it would be hilarious.
Haha, if I could I would reform city statushood and make the more logical, amalgamate towns that makes sense to combine etc and withdraw some from their cityhood. The UK can be confusing with where a city starts or a town starts because multiple historic villages/towns have all grown into each other and essentially have become one such as the Medway towns in this video, Newcastle/Gatsehead and Manchester/Salford and so much more
If the monarch starts to use/abuse its power, there would be immediate revolution
@@parkerjeon720 no, no. We'd have a very civil war about it. Like last time.
@@ShiftyMcGoggles I call dibs for the role of Lord Protector!
@@ShiftyMcGoggles Yes, last time was ‘very civil’ indeed.
I live in Rochester, if you ask any of the locals nobody will be that bothered that this place is no longer a city, but its cool to know that Tom Scott himself made a video about my hometown, i knew from the title alone that the video was going to be about Rochester given this place's history.
I also live in Rochester, just the one across the Atlantic instead
Home-place.
Fixed it
@@bcunningham3718 That Rochester still a city.
Rochester is the nicest and most interesting town in Medway, city or not.
@@bcunningham3718 : The one that lost a subway?
As soon as you mentioned the minutes, this sprung to mind…
Sir Humphrey: “It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member’s recollection of them differs violently from every other member’s recollection. Consequently, we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case, if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, and it isn’t, so it wasn’t.“
So, when writing the minutes, we can just pick as we want from the ingredients? Like cooking?
It's always good to hear Humphrey's clear and unambiguous explanations of how these things work
Better to avoid that word.
Excellent 😄😄
thank you for this I just found it, its amaaaazing :D
It's cool to see my home town though on a Tom Scott video, like these places I go past everyday, and then seeing it on a channel that gets millions of views, exposing it to them all.
It's definitely a cool bench. I'm glad millions of people get to see this :-P
But not a home city.
@@84elmer lmao
@@84elmer technically not even a town, it's a "ward" (fancy term for zone) now, as it's an administrative ward of Medway, borough would also work.. But then the title of town isn't legally protected so they can claim that if they want it.
Personally I'd refer to it as "The place formerly known as the city of Rochester", makes postal addresses a bit long unfortunately.
I wanna see a video on Billie the quid
I lived in Rochester, and I have family there too. Literally only minutes away from the very castle and high street (well, if you can call Historic Rochester's modest shops a high street) you showed in the video. Know the area so well, it was like being back there. I knew part of the story of why it wasn't a city, but it was good to get more details on it. I never understood why they didn't just reapply for city status later, and now it all makes sense.
Gotta come back after Jay's video!
well, why wouldn't you? I'd have been surprised if no one did
This video has everything I love about british culture! Needless legal pedantry, ancient history, the queen, and talking about the weather!
All we needed was an alcoholic kicking a football and we'd have had the full package
Polite tip to foreigners - not all of us like to be called British. Say that to a Welshman or a Scot, let alone an Ulsterman, and you'll see what I mean! Me, I'm English, thanks.
@@Blitterbug many of us do?
@@briantime3762 Good for you 👍- er, was that a question?
Tom didn't mention the weather, just said it was windy. Windy isn't weather, it's just a constant state of being. Like rain. Warm and sunny is weather!
As an example of how arbitrary the list is, I come from Bolton which is larger than all but ~17 cities, there's 69 in total ;) in the UK but it is still a town, said to be the largest town in europe by area (by population is different). It used to be even bigger 100 years ago as well, but was never made one. However St David's with a population of 1,600 is a city.
"this is not Bolton, this is... Ipswich"
@@minirop isn't that a palindrome of Bolton?
Edit: this from the monty python dead parrot sketch and the palindrome of Bolton is Notlob
Hello fellow Boltonion. I didn't know that!
The town is only 160,000 people. So it is not the biggest town even in the UK
The biggest town in the UK is Reading
Always hate when you accidently lose your 800 year old status symbol
As an American, it’s always so weird to me to see European countries just casually having castles
Some of them aren't even in cities. They're just kinda hanging out in the middle of the countryside, probably on some very tall hill that once held some kind of strategic significance, and there's so many of them that nobody even cares that much, so they're just sitting there and quietly crumbling. I've got a piece of stone brick in my room, took it from one such castle last summer. The castle was built in the 13th century, so that little piece of masonry could've realistically been placed there more than 700 years ago. Now it's mine.
Why? America has casual cases as well,in Europe they usually had a good reason at one time or another.
@@generalrubbish9513 stealing from a castle is not somthing to be proud of ,your just vandalising history scummy behavior
@@generalrubbish9513 I once broke off a piece of brick from roman times and took it with me. There are heaps of them lying around, you just have to know where to look. I'm from Austria btw.
@@CalimehChelonia why would you break a piece of history intentionally? whats wrong with you?
Still appreciating the subtitles, thank you, Tom!
I would totally love to hear the scrapped intro about historical definitions of a city as its own bonus video! Love that kind of trivia and there's no one I trust more to provide only the truth on such a rumour-riddled topic!
Your impression of the queen was amusing if not convincing! I'd love an excuse to hear you use it a lot more!
And finally, I'm always glad when I watch right up until the end of the video when the playback bar runs out. It's such a treat to watch you break character and get to hear your little asides. They feel so candid and it's like a look at the secret real Tom!
As an American without castles everywhere, apologizing for _only_ having a castle in the background of your shot hurts me.
I’d love if castles were everywhere in the United States. Need an infusion of medieval architecture here.
@@DoiInthanon1897 Planning to build my own as a cohousing project sometime in the next 10 years. Assuming the economy doesn't spiral out of control, of course.
lmao imagine unironically being br*tish
@@koopadaquick9862 imagine needing to imagine being better then an American
@Yeast Yeast What do you mean? I'm from the USA, but none of America has castles like England does. So the same applies to anyone on either continent. Though, in parts of South and Central America they do have cool ruins instead.
My favourite bit came a few years later where Medway started calling themselves "City of Medway" on signage and the like, but because they weren't on the list, they got told off by Advertising Standards.
I live IN Rochester! So sad I missed you! I go to the castle grounds every other day for a walk! Interesting point about the castle… one if it’s 4 towers is round not square because it was mined under and destroyed during a siege! They rebuilt it round because castle design had improved by that point and engineers of the time had realised that round towers resist bombardment better! What a privilege to have a video filmed in my home town! Thanks Tom!
Im so jealous of where you live!
King John had an accidential bbq.
And if you shoot arrows at the circular wall. They bounce off in a random direction and probably kill someone else on the invading army.
The city I grew up in, Layton, Utah, USA, was the largest and most commercially viable city the the county for as long as I can remember. Kaysville, the next city south, was seen as a sleepy bedroom community with a few local stores and little else other than some farmland. Imagine my surprise when I found out that Layton, now the largest city in the county, had sued Kaysville in court for independence.
i kept misreading country and country and i was trying to figure out why i'd never heard of it
This reminds me of my Town of Gilbert, Arizona. Gilbert has grown from around 5,000 people to around 270,000 people over the last 30 years but deliberately decided to stay incorporated as a town and not a city in order to sound more associated with small town, family community, and stay tied to its farming roots. As far as I know it's the largest town in the US and I'd be curious to know of other large towns like Rochester and Gilbert around the world.
I love that! Quite wholesome
That would be quite difficult, given not two countries have the same criteria for "town" or "city"
Towns mean different things in different states. In some, it is just the second level subdivision, after county. Hempstead in New York (Long Island) is a town with over 700,000 people.
In the Netherlands we have a city that describes itself as, "has always felt like a village" of about 200,000 people, feels like similar vibes.
I live not far from there and had no idea that it was still a town. I just assumed it was a city like nearby Chandler and Mesa.
Meanwhile I grew up in a city with a population of 8,000. Just one of the neighborhood developments in Gilbert could probably house that entire population...
"A city is a city if its on the government list of cities" - THANK YOU! I've been trying to tell people this for years when the "What is a city in the UK?" debate comes up. Its amazing how many people still think its about cathedrals...
Well it still should be about cathedrals to a certain extent ;)
@@RedRocket4000 But... it never was.
That's because schools, in UK, certainly in the 80's, taught City's have cathedrals.
@@reachandler3655 I have a very clear memory of one of my primary school teachers asking "What is the one thing a city has, that a town doesn't?" and spending a good 5-10 minutes having us guess with nobody getting it right. We were saying everything from shopping centres to train stations. Then somebody finally shouted out "Cathedrals" and we were told that was the correct answer. 🤦♂
Of course it's about cathedrals - anywhere that has a cathedral is a city. Check the map. Wells, for instance, wouldn't possibly qualify as a 'city' by any other means. OK, so in modern times, the word has taken on a more 'American' meaning (large town) and we now have so-called cities that don't have cathedrals, but I challenge you to find one English place that has a cathedral which wasn't also called a city.
Bit nostalgic seeing Tom sitting on what is sort of a park bench.
And how! A nice, quiet setting for an interesting story about an interesting place.
That title gives me major "The cliff that refused to be a cliff" vibes.
Don't be daft, that opening background with the walls and the bench is hella picturesque! I hope you're well, Tom, and I wish you all the best, been a long-time fan of your videos!
Wym "Sorry that the background isn't quite as picturesque as it usually is." 0:10, that is a really nice background and probably one of my favs on your channel ngl, like I'm not kidding I genuinely love it!
Just an American from NYC passing through and finding all of this fascinating - hope everyone has a great day
How's the weather in NYC today?
"There's a storm coming tomorrow - it would've been worse!"
Indeed. Several of my friends who live in the same part of England have been losing power repeatedly during the last few days and had to cut up trees that fell into their driveways. I think that counts as worse 😂
Well, now they have firewood. So I guess the utilities bill should be lower now.
In the Netherlands we had 3 deaths 💀
@@Tjalve70 Well hopefully. Not many homes in the UK have fireplaces for burning wood anymore.
@@Ryaninja There are a lot of houses, even modern ones, with wood burning stoves in the UK. Open fireplaces not so many these days.
Been hecka windy in Paris today.
I loved this one. Reminds me of Census Towns in India. India has two different criteria for calling a place 'urban' - you can either be on a government list (a 'statutory' urban area i.e. urban area 'by statute') or you can be classified as a town during the census once every ten years (which has a very specific set of criteria to be fulfilled,
- population, major industries and so on).
The trouble is that there are a whole bunch of places all over the country which used to be villages but because of population growth, occupational change and increased density, have turned into urban areas as per the census. However, the government hasn't yet put them on the list. Hence "census towns" - towns as per the census, but not as per government statute.
Bit of an issue because India has separate governance structures for rural and urban areas. So you have dozens of census towns, looking and feeling like urban areas in every way, but they don't have municipal corporations because they haven't yet been recognised by statute.
Even more confusing is that many census towns don't want a statute. Being classified as rural allows them to access rural development schemes and programmes which are much more generous than the urban ones, so there are times when census towns have actually resisted the statute.
As an Indian I didn't know of this! It's interesting how these status work, because I have for sure seen towns more developed than cities.
Wow, I never would have imagined a town would want to call itself a rural area. Bureaucracy really does lead to the strangest situations.
Fascinating! Can you do Tom Scott style videos but about India? 😁
The more I learn about India the more I realize that place is fuck*d
There's also issue with taxation. Being part of a city leads to increased taxes(such as land revenue), which villages don't want. So there are many villages that look and feel like a city, but operate under rural government organisations.
I grew up in Medway and there was always the kind of amusing story that we would have been a city, but the council didn’t do the paperwork. Never realised it was actually a true story!!!
Fascinating video. There are Rochesters scattered all over the United States (I've lived in one), and I've always wondered what sort of amazing city back in the UK they were named after. Turns out it's maybe not even technically a town anymore?
Born in Chatham here. And my Dad was Leader of Chelmsford Council when it became a city in 2012. The change was, as Tom says, enormous. Chelmsford has received so much investment simply by being a City...a shame about Rochester...going there in the summer.
Us Hilltoppers always say, Chatham, Chatham, s#!t right at 'em!
Here in Pennsylvania, we have a hilariously complicated system of classifying any and all settlements of any size. There are nine classes of county, two classes of townships, one and only one town, 956 boroughs, and 56 cities divided into four classes of which three only have one city in them.
Also Home Rule vs non-Home Rule counties!
Although conveniently it's very similar to the complicated system used to categorise Eagles fans into who/what what was to blame for last year's failure to get to the Superbowl
Meanwhile, in Virginia, cities are just a figment of the imagination, with, like, 3* exceptions.
*definitely more than three, but still, most cities and towns have no municipal authority, and only exist in people’s minds
Hi, I have no idea if you will answer this or not, but HERE GOES IT! I am a creative writing student and I am super interested in finding out more about how this sort of thing is done. What I want to ask you is this... How did you learn about this and how might someone like do the same?
@@CalvinsWorldNews no idea m8... maybe ask a professor or something
Anyone else get this in their recommendations after Jay's video?
I always love these weird bits of legislation.
We've got a few fun ones in Canada too-greenwood in BC is a city despite only having 600 people, because in BC you need 5000 to legally be a city, and it never loses that distinction even if the population drops (as greenwoods did decades ago once the mines closed).
Flin Flon is split between the borders of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and so while it has a pop. of about 5000, Saskatchewan only has full jurisdiction over about 200 of them.
Lastly, because quebec is a nightmare, and just kind of classifies whatever however it wants, we get the city of L'Île-Dorval, which has FIVE people living in it.
all cities and towns in quebec are classified as "villes" in both languages, aren't they? the word means town or city so you'd have to choose how to translate it every time otherwise. though they do have villages, which would be more appropriate, or just plain old municipalities
My face when I saw this in my Subs list... sitting just along the river, having sat on that *exact* bench before.
Some of my fellow Rochester residents are mighty bitter about the loss of City status. Others, well, they're just happy we don't live in *other Medway town, delete as applicable*.
Hope you got to have a good look around Tom!
Rochester is by far the nicest of the towns imo
You could just say Chatham.
@@MrRevertis I mean, we were all thinking it.
The impression of the Queen was so accurate (skip to 1:18 to see an Oscar worthy performance)
Surrounded by Her Majesty’s influence, Tom has picked up a thing or two…
omg it's the dude from twitter
I don't even know what he's talking about with his terrible impressions, that was amazing.
@@MrWillyMrBrightside it me
Not enough coughing for it to be a recent impression.
I lived in rochester until 2011, I can totally believe the borough council forgot the paperwork.
For a long time they called themselves "Rochester, City of Europe."
To get that status, they took Rochester and put "City of Europe" after it. It got shot down rather hard when it got discovered.
Now I'm imagining that "Rochester, City of Europe" somehow managed to stick around post Brexit.
Not as funny as 'Rochester Upon Medway' though. Here in Maidstone (also on the Medway) we pissed ourselves over that one!
@@paulhaynes8045 "Rochester Upon Medway, City of Europe".
@@ZT1ST Is Rochester not still in Europe? It wasn't called "Rochester, city of the EU" now was it? It's not like we floated off into the middle of the Atlantic now is it?
@@lordgemini2376 I mean, I guess technically, but Brexit has it leave the *European Union*, so it fundamentally acts differently than the rest of Europe.
"Rochester Upon Medway, City Of Europe, Not The Europe You Think Of When We Say Europe, It's Complicated" might be stretching the whole nickname though.
I lived in Rochester in a flat opposite the cathedral until quite recently. Great place.
There was a consultation on whether to establish a town council for Rochester approximately 2 years ago. As I recall, and despite strong support from Labour councillors and residents, Medway Council declined to proceed.
Some times the background is nicest when it’s the most simple, love the video Tom, keep it up!
That background was actually really nice. You're in front of a castle wall, which reminds your viewers that this is a place with a lot of history. And the flowers tell us this is not an abandoned place, people still live there and want it to look nice because they still feel pride about it all. Which fits very well, thematically, with the story being told.
You said it for me! I thought the nice neutral background with the little splash of color was just fine!
I think that someone will now install a plaque on the bench saying Tom Scott sat here.
Having lived here in Medway for the vast majority of my life, this story gives me equal parts pride and embarrassment. Interestingly, considering Strood was one of the reasons for the original rejigging, it is generally considered part of Rochester now (and Rainham a part of Gillingham). It is Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester which are generally considered to be THE Medway Towns.
Oh literally that is exactly how I felt (fellow Medwaylian) - it's so emblematic of the Medway Towns experience.
Bloody Strood, eh?
As someone from Rainham, we never considered ourselves part of Gillingham haha
@@alexstephens4767 preach it Alex. As a fellow Rainhamite we may be near Gillingham but are not in it.
I know rochester is our post town/city/district of medway.
The locality formerly known as the City of Rochester
I remember exactly what happened, I was at the meeting! It was down to advice from the Chief Executive at the time. We were advised that it was not required and there was a concern that Gillingham Borough would also do this because they did not like the Unitary Council
The next question of course is, "Advised by whom?"
The Chief Executive, it was a special meeting of the Finance and General Purposes Committee and all ‘sides’ agreed with the decision.
whoa that's crazy
I am from Medway (born in Chatham) and even I never knew Rochester was no longer a City! My Dad used to regularly (and very happily) say to me that Rochester was one if Britain's smallest cities BECAUSE it had a Cathedral. Being little at the time I was enthralled to know I was living next to a city! I just find it quite a shame that two once very important towns (Chatham and Rochester) are now nothing more than a word on a map, or that place "yonder hill"... How the mighty have fallen!
Living in New England and more specifically Massachusetts, there is a town right next to me named Medway. Lovely little place. The presumed namesake across the pond looks lovely too. A bit windier, but lovely
Nah it's full of junkies and wasters this side of the pond lmao
Many places in America are named after places in the UK... cba to list them all though, kinda shocked you didn't change the names after you lot went deus vult on our arses
@@dislikebutton2462 they didn't even throw a "New" in front of most of them, awfully confusing
1:17 it's official. The one who decides what a city is is Mickey Mouse.
"Back in 2002" Oh fairly recen...
"20 years ago" ....*existential crisis intensifies*
Wasn't expecting to open UA-cam to see Tom has made a video on the town right next to where I live!
4:47 - The Label of "City" being desirable is interesting. In Ontario, Canada we actually have the opposite, Suburban areas that legally should be "City" or the less interesting "Regional Municipality" that have special exceptions from the naming rules to call themselves "County" or "District Municipality" to sound more rural even when they legally aren't that.
For Ontarians reading this, the places who got exceptions from the naming rules;
- Oxford "County" is a Regional Municipality
- The "District Municipality" of Muskoka is a Regional Municipality
- Prince Edward "County" is a Single Tier Municipality
- Haldimand "County" is a Single Tier Municipality
- Norfolk "County" is a Single Tier Municipality
- The "County" of Brant is a Single Tier Municipality
I'm from Rochester, and I've grown up here for all my life! Thanks for covering this interesting part of my history :)
Then you've got something like Manchester, which is technically two cities (either side of a river, like Budapest or Ankh-Morpork) and several towns mashed together into a conurbation that often gets called Manchester as a whole.
Manchester is more like Ankh-Morpork.
@@dogwalker666 I was coming to poke fun at the Budapest/Ankh-Morpork juxtaposition, but then..... I'll take your word on the comparison!
@@Greyrabbit22 Joking aside Budapest is where Terry got the idea from.
Have a like just for the Ankh-Morpork reference
Ah yes, the two cities of Manch and Ester.
There's a similar bit of lore going on in the north of Portugal, where there's an area that's deemed big enough to be called a City, but they refused the moniker and still call it a Town.
Most people nearby attribute it to the risk of it losing its cherished "oldest town in the country" title without becoming the oldest city in the process, but as they say, only God knows.
Cidade and vila?
Greetings from Rochester, New York, USA; the once flour city, now flower city.
If you look carefully around the castle area you’ll still see old plaques referring to the “City of Rochester Upon Medway”. My home town and I love it!
An alternative to charter trustees would have been to erect a civil parish - there are eight such civil parishes with city status. Curiously despite being a city Rochester didn't have a mayor. Instead its civic leader was the Admiral of the River Medway, or as per the charter of Henry VI in 1446 “Admiral of the Waters of the Medway from Sherenesse to Hawkewode.”
So the Admiral lost his/her post when Rochester faded away?
@@larryg3326 The Mayor of Medway now has the title and the Admiralty Court is a committee of the Council. The remaining function seems to be eating a big dinner once a year.
@@calmeilles I mean, that's kind of the point of mayors, right?
As someone who lives in the Midlands and has an obsession with history I can safely say I have never heard of Medway and it is still Rochester in my mind.
It's...messy really. For example I'd say to people elsewhere in the UK "I'm from Medway" (Gillingham, specifically), but when I'm talking about the place itself, I would call it "the Medway towns", because people generally still distinguish between the towns themselves. It matters which one you come from! In terms of sending letters, we still use the original town names as well. It's such a massive area it would be hard not to. But equally, there's one street where half the road is in Chatham, and the other half is Gillingham...and I mean lengthways. Odds are one town, evens the other. From an admin point of view they really are all just one big urban sprawl at this point.
"The purpose of minutes is not to record events, it is to protect people. Minutes are there to reflect what people thought they should have said, with the benefit of hindsight." - One Sir Humphrey
You are one of the last youtubers who makes videos that are not unnecessarily long. Congrats! Would love to see more videos about old british technology.
I was born in Rochester! NY, that is. Sad to hear how it’s presumable namesake has been perhaps lost to the passage of time 😔
In Germany we have a small town called "Stadt Blankenberg" ("City of Blankenberg"). It has 606 inhabitants now, but was a city until 1805, with all the stuff around it belonging to it
There is a city called Arnis in Schleswig-Holstein with less than 300 inhabitants. It's still a city.
And today Stadt Blankenberg is a part of Hennef which is called the "city of a hundred villages" because of the many parts that are far away from each other.
@@amoyn I used to holiday in Tating 😊
Tom: *What makes a city a city... Its a bit dull!*
Jay Foreman: _disgruntled whining_
THE MAP MEN SHALL HEAR OF THIS!
...whelp, and here I thought losing your status because you forgot to tick a box would be unique to German bureaucracy.
true lmao, german bureaucracy is hell
so you are telling us Monty Python bureaucracy sketches are not at all based on UK?
Fortunately German bureauceacy makes sense at least, this here is just messy
@@haglasu1468 it literally doesnt, there is just so much unnecessary bs, at least the UK one is funny
@@haglasu1468 Bold of you to assume any bureaucracy makes sense
Who came here from Map Men Men?
In Canada (Ontario Specifically) once a town reaches 7500 residents, it can apply to the provincial government to be designated a city. There's no other criteria. Oakville has over 190k residents, but they prefer to be called a town so never bothered getting it changed.
And then there's Thorold (population of 18,000) that's a city.
In Alberta, a town needs 10,000 people to apply, but there are currently 10 towns with more than enough people who simply haven’t applied for city status (out of a total of 106 towns). The town of Cochrane has over 32k residents.
As soon as you said Rochester, I got excited. We have a few Rochester's in the United States, but our popular, and also similarly windy one is in New York.
But as far as I know, England does not have a Buffalo... So WNY for the win! 😊
Tom Scott visiting must be enough to make it a city! Rochester-upon-the-Stone-where-Tom-sat-in-the-wind
Looks legit.
But in English it's pronounced roosterpontsonwertomsatind
As an enthusiast of local government history, I've known about this story for a couple of years now. You've explained it beautifully, Tom!
Wow to see your home town pop up as you get home from work. Used to live next door in Chatham but Rochester is definitely the winner!
As a history graduate from Kent, this makes me sad, 800 years of status now gone
The British really like their governance technicalities with centuries of history that makes everything complicated, don't they. I really don't want to be a British bureaucrat with this huge collection of exemptions.
Tom could probably sustain his channel with just these.
As you see with the reforms, they don’t cherish it
What exactly is complicated? Or maybe a better question: What exactly do you think could be simplified? Or can you point to a country that makes it simpler?
@@Jehty_ I think it should be size based. Village-Town-City. Low population and just a few buildings = Village. Larger population with more buildings and services = Town. And a huge population with alot of buildings and services= City.
@@MeldinX2 Maybe the best thing would be to keep the old rule, not the new 21st century one creating loads of problems
Not sure if you were paying attention but they have simplified it: city status is if you are on The List of Cities.
Being from Rochester New York it’s so interesting hearing how Rochester is pronounced differently in England
*Correctly
How is Rochester NY pronounced?
I've heard Americans say Rochester, aside from their American accent, I didn't notice any difference...
@@fdsdh1 Rotten-chester
Hey, I'm from Rochester! I always was told that Rochester lost its City status because of an almagamation of the Medway Towns and that because it was no longer a singular "town/city" it couldn't be considered as such. Cool to know it was an administration error!
No cheapskates
See I was told it was not filing the paperwork but had nothing to do with the wider Medway area
@@crazyt1483 Funny how time changes the story, the actual outcome of that meeting truly is lost to time!
@@RehynGaming I imagine they took one look at Strood and decided there was no way they were gonna give it city status even by proxy
"It is a very windy day in Rochester..."
That doesn't narrow things down much. I know of three Rochesters and they are all known for being windy.
Being from Rochester NY, the beginning of this video confused me greatly before I remembered that other places in the world exist
It will forever be in my heart as the place where several of my classmates tried to deface centuries old architecture and got my school permabanned from visiting ever again
I must say that the title of the video automatically makes it a Tom Scott video, great job Tom! Keep up the great work!
Strangely enough, for some reason, I feel like rewording the title as "The Town That Forgot To Be A City" feels very much like a Tom video as well!
I was literally researching what a city is yesterday, I think there's two lists, the list of cities from the government which is decided by decision of the queen/gov, the other is the list used by the house of commons, and that's sorted by population.
Search terms :"City & Town Classification of Constituencies & Local Authorities House of Commons"
Tom, don't ever change, the realness is the gem in your work!
i used to live in rochester and recognize all of these places you've shown immediately including places where friends, family and myself have worked. this is just one of the many stories rochester (and the rest of medway) has to tell, you may have noticed while you were around the castle that one of the turrets is round while the others are square, there is a story for that and there are historic naval sites all over the place too. tom, there are lots more stories to tell, please tell them.
I love how Tom can sit outdoors on a windy day and have better audio quality than a multibillion company can achieve inside a studio.
Seeing Tom film in a place I live close to and know well about a story we've told as a bit of a joke for years is so weird 😂
As someone who's been to Rochester a few times, it's inconceivable how it can't be a city. There is something wrong with how this process works.
Yep, it's tiny
There's nothing wrong with it when its just for prestige (that few really care about).
@@tams805 This. If it mattered in some way, like effecting taxes or access to resources or voting power, then it would be a tragic example of bureaucracy run amok; as is, it is just politicians arguing over bragging rights.
It is a strange process. Chichester is my nearest City (not far from Rochester on a national scale). Cathedral? check. Population? about 23000. The town I live in has over 5 times that population. Even village next door that claims to be the largest village in England has similar or bigger population! Chichester is smaller than both in terms of geographic area.
@@KentRoads Truro City is smaller.
I love my town of Rochester! I cannot believe you were there! Would have loved to have bought you a beer Tom
used to live near Medway and Rochester was a HUGE part of my childhood, never knew about this!
I don't live in England and I've never been to England but I absolutely love global historical tidbits like these. I don't know why they just tickle the particular historical itch that I have
As an American just shy of 5,000 miles away there is no godly reason why I should have learned everything I've learned about British local government's petty bureaucratic urban planning reshuffles of the 1970's and 1990's.
I blame this entirely on Tom Scott and Jay Foreman.
Other UA-cam channels are available, so it's entirely your fault !
The BIG thing that wasn't mentioned here which I think is actually the real kicker for Rochester (or Rochester-upon-Medway, or Medway) is exactly WHY Rochester had city status originally. City status for most cities was/is conferred by a Letters Patent nominally from the Monarch, and theoretically Medway may at some point acquire such a letters patent. Rochester however was one of 20 exceptions, 20 cities who didn't have a Letters Patent declaring them cities, but rather they existed as cities by being cities since "Time Immemorial", since before such good recordkeeping and procedures existed, since virtually, forever.
One other thing: There was a tendency for settlements that contain a diocese cathedral to be/become a city, it wasn't a requirement on paper, but was (for at least two times in history at least) tradition in England & Wales. These even holds true from the 20 ancient cities, they aligned to 19 of the 22 ancient dioceses (the other 3 being in Wales). So I think to simply say the belief that "cathedral = city historically" is a myth is itself misleading, because there is a basis for that.
Hey fellow Medway folk! Was so strange to be scrolling through my homepage and see the thumbnail for this video and be thinking "wait a minute...that castle looks familiar!"
THAT ONE - Worth coming to the video, for the impression
I remember when this happened. I used to work for them when it happened but luckily wasn’t part of this fiasco. There was a blame game when this happened back then and it comes up each time they throw money at trying to apply for City status.
St Davids, with a population in the low thousands (depending on the time of year), has city status for historic reasons. As it was a major pilgrimage site in Britain in the middle ages. I believe I read that there was a papal statement that two pilgrimages to St Davids were worth one to Rome.
It only became a city in 1994! Population of under 2,000
See, this is a weird one, because I'm from Maidstone, barely twenty minutes from all the places Tom's talking about, my mum's churches are in the diocese of Rochester, so it's a little surreal having a video about all these places that I've lived around for my whole life...
I get that, it's like whenever I see my microscopic island hometown on a map next to where a content creator is talking about. Oversimplified's "The Pig War" physically shows my hometown on a map.
I’m from Maidstone too! We have almost 3X the population of Canterbury but we’re still not a city
@@j0seph487 Really? I had no idea it was that big. I guess there are a lot of surrounding bits that are technically still part of the town though, so I guess it does make sense. Who knows, maybe one day it will be!
This must be what it feels to live outside London. Oh a video about my town! We are famous mum!
Considering I live on the high street and have sat on that exact bench; yep totally agree!
I’m devastated I wasn’t in Rochester when Tom was there, I live like 20 minutes away
Tom's way of narration did make me smile... while it's quite interesting to know that cities get registered in this way over there..
it feels so weird saying queen now shes gone.