Acoustic Rig Rundown: Dual Source Stereo System
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- I'm running through a demo of one of the dual source pickup systems I use, along with a simple pedalboard setup with a custom preamp from Sunnaudio that allows me to create a stereo sound. The guitar is recorded direct out of the pedal board.
It s incredible how much gear you need for an acoustic guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar on stage !
Thanks for that run down Doug. Pretty neat setup, and sounds amazing.
Hi Doug, thank you for the rundown. The sound of your rig is quite natural.
Very nice guitar sound. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Doug, You’ve definitely designed a beautiful tone. Thanks for the explanation. 🎶🎶☘️☘️
Doug, what a fantastic sound and explanation of gear. You convinced me to try a lavalier mic with my K&K system. Thanks for the tip.
Sounds great Doug, especially with the fingerpicking the stereo image jumps out. Great playing as well (as always!)
Always love your videos!
Mid side! too cool. Sounds great Doug.
That sounds really amazing! I'm not a guitarist, but I do mix a fair amount in studio and live situations. Thanks for sharing!
6:28 I did as you said I put in earphones! My eye literally WATERED when that lush sound came flowing in!
Glad you liked it! It's a bit exaggerated in headphones compared to how it works live thru a PA, but it's fun to hear it in the phones!
Spectacular 👌🏾
I will buy whatever Doug recommends. He is the real deal.
sounds great Doug, hope all is well, Will we see you at NAMM
Brilliant. I want that setup....nope....need that setup.
Thanks Doug. Cheers
Perfection
Thanks Doug for the prompt reply. Looks like I'm going to have to replace the K&K mic with the Audix.
If your K&K mic is older it, should work. I'm not sure when they changed it. It used to work with 9 volts, but in the last few years, they added something to have it shut down if you use more than 5 volts. K&K's preamp is the only one I know of on the market that supports 5 volts. The audix is a better quality mic, tho it may not make a lot of difference. Other options include a DPA 4061. Bartlett mic. The Sunnaudio guys also have a mic they've been selling/recommending.
Ok, thanks Doug its fairly new so I will have to replace it.
Thanks for the rundown. Can you explain how to combine 2 pickups into one stereo endpin jack ?
You can use a stereo or "TRS" (tip-ring-sleeve) jack. One pick goes on the ground and tip, the other on ground and ring. Then use a TRS cable, like I show in the video. It's easiest with passive pickups. If you have an active system with an integrated preamp and end-pin jack, you're stuck with whatever your pickup system has. Some allow a 2nd source, others don't
Terrific sound! Say, Doug, have you changed anything to your stereo rig since this vid (30 months ago)? Also, what USB audio interface would complement this kind of rig into a DAW? Thanks for your informative reviews and demos.
Yes and no :-) I've upgraded everything, but it's still the same idea. Sunnaudio now makes a production version of the custom preamp they made for me, and it has a few more nice features, like sweepable mids and switchable input impedances. But essentially the same. I've moved from the CabM to ToneDexter, which with their 2.0 release made a major upgrade and introduced a nice anti-feedback control. And tho the Ventris sounds great, I've switched to the new UAD reverb pedal, which sounds even better to me. My use for this setup is live, not recording, but when I record with it for demos, I just my Apogee Ensemble interface normally. For this video, everything was just plugged into a Zoom H6.
I just found your video and the guitar sounds amazingly good. Thank you for your video on that stereo image. Does it null or fades in a mono sum?
If you sum the stereo signal to mono the mic will null, the pickup will remain. This can be handy - for example, you can run stereo out the mains, and have both channels fed back to monitors in mono. That removes the mic from the monitors for less feedback. If I need to really run in mono to a PA or amp, which happens all too often... I just turn off the MS and stereo modes, falling back to a classic pickup+mic dual source blend with no stereo effect, and that sounds fine, too. Worst case is a sound guy telling me he can run in stereo, but he forgets to pan the channels. Then the audience hears the pickup, but no mic. Not a disaster, tho, as long as the main pickup still sounds good.
Hey Doug.great video,great guitar sound and idea.very creative.i have one question for you.i know you are using passive pickup and mic to your guitar output,but do you think would it be possible to rewire preamp of active pickup together with another active or passive device together on trs to get stereo output?i know there is active preamps that can combine muliple sound sources,but you can only blend them to mono output and not get a stereo.stereo source only reach guitar preamp and not guitar output.
This is possible, it just depends on the system(s) involved. There are pickups that support this directly, like the DTar pickup, which has a 2nd channel in stereo. Or the Schatten preamp that supports a 2nd channel and stereo. Some can be modified easily, like the Baggs Anthem (full version), where you can just replace the end pin jack with a TRS version. It's easiest to combine a 2nd passive system, things get tricky if you have to support 2 active systems, figuring out how to have both activated when you plugin, whether you can power both off the same battery, and so on.. Of course you can also always have 2 endpin jacks for separate systems.
Hi Doug, looks like I arrived late to the party!
I'm actually looking into all of this stuff now.
I've got a custom built OM-Martin replica,
outfitted with the KK Pure mini + Helix (Mag pickup) combo.
TRS jack output.
I haven't bought my pedals yet, but I'm actively planning them out now.
Looking to do something similar to what you did in this video.
I'm really looking into the grace designs Felix 2 channel preamp.
Do you have any experience with these?
The Grace Felix is the king of the hill at the moment, the highest quality preamp out there. I own one and have used it a lot. It won't do the MS stereo trick I show in this video, but other than that, it has every feature one could ask for in a preamp and studio-quality sound. The new Felix2 fixes the only real shortcoming of the original by adding effects inserts for each channel.
Hey Doug - would the mid-side functionality of the SunnAudio work if the two pickups you are feeding it are a K&K SBT and a Barbera Soloist UST, for example? (Both passive systems, none of which is a "microphone" in the traditional sense). Or would the mid-side trick only work if one of the pickups is literally a room / air microphone (like the Audix you're using)? So the question here is to make the specific distinction between a UST / SBT versus an "actual" mic that doesn't make contact with the guitar's top or its strings (but rather is just picking up air movements). I know the idea is to have signals going into the MS-2 that are not "identical", but how do we define "identical" here? :) Thank you! You're amazing
I haven't tried that, but my guess is that it would not work very well. The issue is that both pickups are picking up essentially the same spot on the guitar, and would be substantially in phase. In that case, the MS process would result in one side being louder, and the other side all but cancelling out. It's more about the signals being in phase than being "similar" sounding. With a mic, the sound is just so uncorrelated with the pickup that it's not an issue. Do you have those pickups installed? If you have recording software, you could try it by recording both pickups and running them thru a MS plugin (there are free ones out there). The Barbera having alternating out-of-phase elements makes this a little more confusing, so hard to know exactly how it would come out. I also wonder how the barbera and K&K would interact simply as a dual source system summed to mono, due to the phased elements.
@@DougYoungGuitar - I guess we'll find out soon. 😝 Planning to install those two systems next month. I'll circle back. 🙂 I have a LARS CM-G SBT and a HyVibe UST here being summed to mono. Your thoughts? ua-cam.com/video/E4g6oaFJi5M/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
Doug - you display text in the video that says: "Internal guitar mics don't use 48 volt phantom power! So you can't just run them into a mixer's mic input". I'm confused by that statement. Did you mean to say "So you CAN just run them..." instead? Also, how are the two pickups passive (including the Audix L5O) if the mic needs power from the MS-2? What is that power that MS-2 delivers? Not 48V phantom power? Thanks in advance.
@@rombsix There are multiple mic wiring and powering schemes. "Phantom Power" is a 3-wire scheme, typcially 48 volts, and usually using an XLR connector. The power is used by a condenser mic to power an amplifier in the body of the mic. "Bias power" is a 2-wire scheme that typically uses 5-9 volts and is used with small electret mics that have no amplifier built in. You can think of it as - very loose analogy - something like your phone vs your toaster. The toaster plugs into a wall outlet with a 3-prong connector and 110 volts. You can't plug your phone in the same way, it uses 5 volts with a USB cable. An adaptor converts the 100 AC into the 5 volt USB. With the electret mic, the guitar preamp acts as the "adaptor". Search on "phantom power vs bias power" for more detailed explanations.
@@rombsix By "passive", I mean there's no onboard electronics. There's no official definition of these words, but most people consider a pickup system that has an onboard preamp and batteries inside the guitar to be "active". A passive system has no preamp inside the guitar, and no batteries. You do need a preamp somewhere, but with passive systems, the preamp is outside the guitar, possibly just in your guitar amp. The bias-powered mic is perhaps a bit of a grey area, since it needs a voltage to operate, but again, there's no preamp for it inside the guitar, and no onboard batteries, you just need to send it a bias voltage, which many acoustic guitar preamps provide. So basically by "Passive", I mean no batteries, no electronics (end-pin preamp, etc) inside the guitar.
great !
Nice demo. Do you have any videos on creating IRs for acoustic guitar…or any IRs you can share as a download?
I love the sound you are getting and also have the Sun Audio MS-2 and the Two Notes Torpedo CabM unit.
Thank you!
…I also have a Matrix Infinity Blend pickup and mic system in my guitar that allows me to use a TRS cable that separates the mic and pickup. I need to tweak the mic pickup EQ and was hoping to create an IR but not sure what frequencies I need to tweak (other than the 80 HZ high pass filter I learned from one of your videos).
I haven't made a video about that, but here's one Aaron Short did recently that's pretty much the process I used for the IR in this demo. ua-cam.com/video/ud3Rhqa2FUo/v-deo.html I've also used CabM's software to capture IRs from ToneDexter, which are better than what you can get from EQ. That's just a matter of routing the out on your interface into ToneDexter (or any pedal), and the output of the pedal back into your computer, then using CabMs software to generate the IR (in CabM's proprietary format)
@@DougYoungGuitar Thank you Doug…I’ll give it a try. Happy Thanksgiving!
Thank you Doug. This was very helpful. I wish I could see how the three devices are connected. I can't figure out how your IR box is processing in advance of the preamp, and your Ventris is last in the signal chain. It looks like the TRS cable from your guitar is going directly into the preamp's channel one input and everything else is downstream of that...? Anyway, terrific video. Thanks for sharing this.
That would have been a good thing for me to have shown or detailed more. The Sunnaudio preamp is unique in that it has 4 inserts, 2 on each channel, one pair before the MS stereo circuit, so they apply to each source, the other 2 after the MS circuit, so they apply to the stereo signal. The IR goes in the first insert, the Ventris in the latter. Without this feature, I'd have to put the IR pedal first and use a Y cable, which would be fine as well. I put up a wiring diagram of the setup in this video here: dougyoungguitar.com/files/1228107/doug-young-pedalboard-wiring.png
@@DougYoungGuitar Thank you very much. That Sunnaudio looks like an amazing preamp. The mid-side feature alone makes me want to save my pennies and get one. I see the current iteration of it (the MS-2) has inclulded a lot more tone shaping controls. Thank you very much for the explanation and the link.
I use the MS-2 these days. EQ is less an issue for me, since the IR handles a lot of it, but the sunnaudio EQ is exceptionally nice, and the extra features they added to the product version are very useful.
Beautiful sound. Are there other brands of hardware that can produce the same ms effect? Right now (December 2019], the Sunnaudio is sold out and has shown as that for some time with no availability date yet (that I know of).
I think they're getting more made, I'd just email them and ask. I don't know of anyone else doing this. Before I had this preamp designed, I used either a Grace Felix or an Pendulum SPS1, both of which offer separate channel outputs, which I ran into a Sonic Orbit MS decoder. That worked great, but expensive and clunkier for various reasons. The Sunnaudio preamp just wraps it up all very nicely into a simpler and smaller setup.
Thank you for the reply, Doug. Very kind and helpful of you. I will inquire with Sunnaudio, for sure. Thanks again. Cheers!
Hey Doug, any thoughts about the radial pz-pro? Here in Europe is quite hard to find, I don't know why. But on the paper it looks quite good for blending two source, like a Felix on the budget..
Maybe this is too late, but I have both that and grace Alix,,,I like the Radial better,,,warm and clean
Dear Doug, thank you for sharing the video. Very interesting. I noticed you mentioned that you prefer passive pickups and that is also my preferece. However, I would be thankful if you could provide further details on how you power the mic and options for good stereo preamp? Last, and although they are active, did you try the Baggs Dual Source? if so, would you mind sharing your thoughts? Sorry for so many quesitons! Much appreciated it! Kind regards.
Hi Guido. The mic is powered by the preamp - it sends 9 volts or so on the ring of the stereo cable. This is very common. Other preamps that support this is would be the Grace Felix, Headway EDB-2, K&K Quantum, and others. The preamp in this video was a custom device, but Sunnaudio now makes a production version, called the MS-2, that's actually quite a bit nicer, more features. I have used the Baggs Dual Source, that was a nice system. I probably have examples on my pickup demo page on my website. I don't think it's made anymore, and I know they don't make the Ribbon undersaddle transducer that was originally used in it. I liked the Ribbon better than the Element that they replaced it with. But the Baggs Dual Source was one of the better pickup systems out there, I thought.
Hi@@DougYoungGuitar Thank you for your prompt answer. I agree with you. Just didn't know that power up the mic was so easy! I checked the Custom Shop MS-2 Stereo Preamp and looks really good, more than I need. I am wondering if I will be able to get the pickup and mic within the UK. Cheers!
@@GuidoGVM The mic I'm using is an Audix L5O, but there are others. The DPA 4061 is popular - made in Germany. I've also used the Sennheiser MKE-2. I'd think you could get any of those in the UK.
@@DougYoungGuitar you are very kind. Thank you.
Doug, will K&K Trinity work in this setup in stereo? Also, see that Sunnaudio has come out with new MS-2 Decoder 2 channel preamp.
Sure, I've used it with a K&K+ a mic. Not the K&K Mic tho, the current K&K mic will shut off if it gets more than 5 volts - they force you to use their preamp. But the basic K&K pickup is fine. I usually use the Audix L5O mic. Yes, Sunnaudio has added some cool new enhancements to what I originally asked for. a midrange control on each channel, switchable impedance, high pass on both channels, some other nice tweaks. All very cool, I have one on order to upgrade, tho mine works perfectly fine as-is.
Doug, I asked this on the AGF, but will ask here as well for the benefit of others. Did you just order one of the three height options Barbera pu and drop it in yourself? Or did you have him make a custom size and/or intonated saddle? Thanks.
I have so far just gotten the stock pickups. I have 4 installed now, in different guitars. As long as the slot is fairly standard, they just drop in, very easy install.
Great tone…a question I have is on the Ventris Dual Reverb, how are you setting up the routing options (or other controls) to ensure you keep the stereo image? Thx in advance for any helpful tips.
I believe I just used the default settings, which is stereo-in, stereo-out. The Ventris has ways to configure that, tho, if I recall. I recently replaced the Ventris with the UAD Reverberator, a much simpler device, but I like the sound even better, as nice as the Ventris is.
@@DougYoungGuitar thanks… I saw that in the Ventris settings.
Would love to hear anything new you have out there that you feel improves (your already awesome) tone! Thx Mr Young!
I'll have to do an updated demo one of these days. I'm basically using ToneDexter instead of the CabM, UAD reverb, and the product version of the sunnaudio custom preamp, the MS-2. Basic idea and sound should be very similar, just a few more controls to fiddle with if I need to.
@@DougYoungGuitar yes…that would be great. I’m trying the tonedexter now to use as an IR on the pickup only. I sent the Torpedo back as it provided more than what I need. I’m also trying out the Optima air for importing IRs…I just want to sound like a slightly different version of you!😊
Thanks, nice rundown. Could you show us how you create IRs?
Hi Daneile, it's on my todo list!
@@DougYoungGuitar out of curiosity, you use something like pure impulse or frequency sweep?
@@DaniduDa I've used both approaches. The impulse is simpler - create an EQ you like, apply to the impulse and save! So simple, it's hard for me to think about how to create a decent video demo of it. The sweep is also easy, if you have the right tools, but you need the right software, so it's hard to demo it in a generic way. I use Space Designer's IR tool, or the Two Notes people have a nice program of their own, tho the result is a proprietary format that only works with their pedals. Both amount to pushing a button, tho there are a few extra steps with Space Designer to get a wav file you can use.
I come back to this video again and again :) How important is the mic to be phase reversed on one side? Thank you!
The stereo effect is created by the phase manipulation, so that's critical to the stereo sound I'm getting. But if you just want a mono sound, (which I have to fall back to in some situations), then you can just blend the mic and pickup for a normal dual-source sound, which can be good as well. You can also get a bit of a stereo effect just from stereo reverb.
Hey Doug! Great video, greater tone. Do you have a dual source setup that you’d recommend for playing live? I currently have an Anthem SL in a couple guitars - which I do like, as it sounds good and is simplistic - however, I’d like to give a dual source setup a try. I was thinking I’d like to pair to type of internal mic with a Dazzo. Do you have any suggestions?
That is the main live gigging guitar I use: with a Barbera pickup+Mic. I also have guiitars with K&K, Trance, and Dazzo, but always with an added mic. Most any small lapel-type mic will work, but I usually use the Audix L5-O, it's moderately priced, (compared to the DAP 4061 that I have also used), sounds good and the wiring is easy to work with.
@@DougYoungGuitarthanks for the reply, Doug. I’m primarily strumming - sometimes finger picking - but 9 times out of 10 I’m doing some type of strumming. Quite a bit of palm muting and percussive-type playing. I’m typically playing full body dreads. Do you think the Barbera would be a good fit? I’ve been a big fan of the Dazzo on my D-18 paired with a Sunn Audio DI. Would really like to add a mic and utilize my Grace Felix.
@@jakedoty4621 The Dazzo's a good pickup, so if you like it, not reason to change. The Barbera is a bit more feedback resistant, and being a UST, perhaps a bit more "direct", sounding. It will be quackier than the Dazzo with hard strumming. Also, depending on what you mean by percussion, it may or may not work for you. It isn't going to pickup body percussion as much as the Dazzo. On the other hand, heavy palm muting can often be a problem with SBTs, where the pickup gets too much of a thump as you hit the bridge, and a UST like the Barbera should have less issue there. But really, if you have a Dazzo that's a good match for your guitar, that's hard to beat. But you can add a mic easily if you want.
In a live context, what would a proper way to monitor yourself be so you hear what the crowd hears?
Sorry, I thought I replied to this already, but I don't see it. Complicated question. In general, it's hard to monitor yourself in a way that you can be sure you hear what the audience hears. The Bose systems, and similar are one approach, but even with that, you're not really out in the audience, so it's still an "almost like the audience" situation. If you are asking specifically about this stereo setup, I usually don't worry about it, and if I use a monitor at all, I just have it in mono, keeping the mic out of the mix, which helps with feedback.
Doug, I have designed and built my own mic + undersaddle piezo preamp and powering systems for many years. I think some of the guys asking questions about dual-source TRS connection wiring might appreciate the circuit diagrams on Data Sheet 4 of the Rane AP13: www.manualslib.com/manual/545559/Rane-Ap-13.html?page=4#manual
[Tyneside, England.]
I would love to learn your thoughts on using a compression pedal on an acoustic guitar for live purposes
I haven't explored that much. I always used compression with electrics, but I've only tried it a few times with acoustic, and didn't care for it. I imagine there are higher quality, more transparent compressors out there for acoustic, and it seems intriguing, but its just not something I've spent any time checking out.
Doug Young got ya. And thank you for your reply. I use a dual pick up system myself. Trinity K&K runs dry and sounds great that way. My other pick ups is Double helix soundhole pick which I run all my pedals through including a light analog distortion at times. I can’t seem to dial in a decent sound out of it and thought maybe a light transparent compressor like the origin effects Cali 76 would work.
Another question, Doug, if I may. For passive pickup/mic with NO controls in the guitar, would a stereo low-impedance volume pedal (like the Boss FV-50L or FV500L) work in the POST insert loops of the MS-2? This, to control the guitar volume easily while playing?
Sorry for the slow response. The pickup should have no impact on things in the effects loop. The prea,p is buffering the pickup, so by the time the signal gets to the inserts (either ones), it's all the same.
Would the LR Baggs (full) Anthem dual pick up work equally well in this setup, I wonder?
Not particularly. The Anthem has a UST +mic, but it blends the 2 onboard with a crossover circuit, so you end up with a mono pickup. No separate outputs, so you wouldn't get the stereo effect. You could use it as a mono pickup, and the 1 channel of the preamp, along with the IR pedal and reverb would work fine, tho, you just wouldn't get the stereo, nor the separate control over each pickup element. But the Anthem's a nice pickup for mono applications.
@@DougYoungGuitar I am actually thinking of combining the Anthem and a magnetic pickup (e.g. M1/M80, to feed into a more processed parallel effect chain), the Anthem would be on the Tip and the magnetic pickup on the ring of the TRS, both masses together on the sleeve. Do you think that would work?
@@jrbc0kings Maybe... There are a few issues, 1st of which is that the controls on the Anthem sit in the soundhole, so you might not have room for the mag. You may be able to move the controls, but they're designed to fit in a certain place, and it depends on your guitar's bracing. Also, the Anthem SL has an integrated end-pin jack, and isn't TRS, so you'd have to add a 2nd jack. With the full Anthem, the jack is separate. If I recall, the one that comes with the Anthem is mono, but you could replace it, or again use a 2nd jack. Sound-wise, I don't know how it would sound in general, or if this stereo trick will work. It depends on how correlated the SBT component of the M1/M80 would be to the Anthem. You'd have to try and see, assuming you can solve the physically installation challenges.
HI. Will the preamp work with the Taylor ES1 system? I know ES1 uses a balanced output jack and it blend in the magnetic and SBT pickups.
It would work like any amp/preamp if you use a mono guitar cable - thereby losing the balanced ES1 benefits. If you used a TRS cable, the preamp would think you were feeding it two sources, which would be a bit odd. This basic issue would occur with any preamp that accepts 2 signals via a single TRS cable (DTar Solstice, Raven Labs, Grace Felix, etc). I suspect this type of issue is one reason Taylor's idea of a balanced output never caught on, and they abandoned it with the ES2. But with a mono cable, sure. Of course you wouldn't have the stereo effect, so one of the key features would be missing.
Doug Young Isn’t the ES1 technically feeding in two sources? The magnetic pickup and the SBT?
@@anteater4112 It's been quite a while since I saw an ES1, but if I recall correctly, there's a mag and SBT, that are blended to mono, then output using a balanced line. So you don't have access to each pickup element individually. I've actually tried this approach with a mag+sbt (Sunrise+Dazzo) and that works great, but I had access to each pickup individually. Taylor's blending them so you don't really have any access, or any control, over each individual element.
Doug Young makes sense. Thank you
@@DougYoungGuitar Another question. Is it possible to have Lr baggs lyric installed into the Taylor and have it going out with one stereo output? Or is it only possible to have two seperate outputs?
Say, would the new Tonedexter 2 serve a useful purpose in this chain?
Yes, absolutely. Anything that makes the raw pickup sound better.
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what kind of capo is that please.
That's a G7 Heritage capo
The cost of the set up must be the same or more then the price of the guitar!...
I'm a bit surprised at the comments that seem to think this is a complex or expensive setup. A preamp, EQ pedal, Reverb. Very simple and basic. Many of our electric guitar-playing friends wouldn't leave the house without a dozen pedals (or maybe 2 dozen)! There, the price certainly adds up. You can look up the prices for these 3 pedals, but they are inline for the cost of a good dual source preamp, reverb, etc. Not even close to the cost of the guitar. I get that budgets are what they are tho. There are always cheaper alternatives, perhaps with a different sound or features.
NONSENSE. Phase inverting the mic , and pan it left and right??? It works with headphones, not with real speakers, where the overall signal will 1) disappear or 2) weaken or 3) get weird . If you want a "fat" wide guitar, do not invent things already existing: use double tracking and equivalent devices (like keeley 30ms for example, or many other). Stay away from phase issues, and let alone create phase issues yourself!!
It works very well thru a real PA - I've been using this approach for years, and never gotten anything but positive comments from sound people. The effect is not as dramatic as thru headphones, but sounds very spacious, open and natural. I'm very happy with the result, but if you don't like it, don't use it, of course.
Classy response
Do you have any experience with Keeley 30 Ms ?
I've listened to YT sample on a few sources,,,, doesn't sound good to me,,
,but if I thought I could get it to sound better live, might reconsider