Is your 'doctor' REALLY a doctor?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 бер 2024
- New roles within the NHS are being rolled out without proper scope, regulation and patient awareness.
References & further reading
House Of Lords debate, published Thursday, 22 February, 2024: lordslibrary.parliament.uk/an...
Pas illegally prescribing drugs www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024...
Death of patient managed by a PA www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...
PA Apprenticeship Studies www.plymouth.ac.uk/schools/pe...
Royal College of Surgeons Open Letter www.rcseng.ac.uk/-/media/File...
Never Events: www.sundaypost.com/fp/surgeon...
Associations of Surgeons in Training PA Report: www.asit.org/media/spolwm2v/a...
100% pass rate of PA exams: www.swansea.ac.uk/press-offic....
Learning neurosurgery ‘on the job’: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023...
PA job advert paediatric hepatology: beta.jobs.nhs.uk/candidate/jo...
Concern over Pas working beyond scope: integratedcarejournal.com/bma...
#physicianassociate #doctor #nhs
Physician Associate
Final Year UK medical student. Me and my friends have just been randomised for our foundation training allocation (not based on academic merit) to our 6th-18th choice deaneries. We can't even pick which rotations we get if we are ranked low. Whilst PAs get to freely chose where they go? They have been taking our spots on placement where I occasionally get turned away because there is already a PA student shadowing a doctor. Honestly its just shocking- they have a huge amount of confidence, and it is really worrying, I am worried they will start telling me what to do when they start becoming more senior rather than every healthcare professional sticking to their own role and working as part of the MDT. Thank you for making this. Its about time someone stood up!
They have been taking your spot? If they are in training and already with a doctor before you get there, why not find your own spot? If they're a student then they have the right to be there as they're focused on their own training and have earned the right to be where they are which is in their lane. Best to stop comparing yourselves to people who aren't even in the same course as you. The bullying is so disgusting. As if the NHS runs on doctors alone.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleusually the nurses shadow the nurses and doctors shadow doctors. When PA students are not allocated a spot on their timetable that a medical student is, I would say it is unfair. If you are so salty about doctors why are you shadowing them? Why not shadow a PA? How am I bullying anyone? You said stick to your own role, so how about the shadow an actual PA instead and stop stepping out of line.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleyour just salty because you are a useless PA 😂
We need to protect junior doctor training. PAs can shadow fellow PAs.
@@DrSophieGP So why make a video about PAs when you don't even understand that PAs role is to work under a doctor's supervision. Yeah and PA training needs protection just as much as you think junior doctors' training need too so do nurses and all health care professionals and if you think PAs can shadow PAs then until PAs are granted prescription rights and all to work without doctors since you think they should shadow PAs, then PAs can continue to shadow the consultants who like them more than junior doctors anyway
Bang on the money. I’m heading to Australia - this government simply does not care about doctors and therefore patients. Truly saddening
It is so sad we are losing brilliant doctors. I just have to hope the tide will turn. Good luck to you!
You don’t see every nurse on minimum wage doing one to Australia do you 😂. Nice option to have and I don’t blame you. Good luck
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Being in the Authoritarian health system in Australia be ready for the rubbish you think UK is bad
Thanks for speaking up about this terrible government policy. It's a patient safety issue. You are absolutely right to be speaking up.
Thank you!
Very brave of you to be so frank. But the assault on the NHS must be talked about openly. Imagine taking a flight and realising a baggage handler is in the captain's seat.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf First of all I'm not a doctor, reesee-dh5bf, totally real named person you. I'm a concerned future patient. And PAs are not doctors, they are cosplaying arseclowns. I know they're too thick to even understand they're just poison pills introduced by those who want to finish off the NHS in this country. But their IQ appears to improve when it comes to self-interest, so listen to this.
If, god forbid, their project to destroy the NHS ever comes to fruition and we end up with a two-tier health system in this country, do you think PAs will go on enjoying their 50k+ a year salary? Or do you think they'll be the first to be chucked under the bus? The difference is, at least the junior doctors can go overseas. There's no payday for PAs in the Gold Coast; they have no real training recognised internationally (hence the cosplay). The ones making big money from all this already don't care about human lives such that they'd go and replace real doctors with fake doctors. Do you think they'll treat fake doctors with respect? (hence the arseclown)
Not a great comparison. A better metaphor would be a Cessna pilot vs a 737 pilot- the Cessna pilot is fine when flying a small propeller plane, but when they are being allowed to attempt flying a 737 they are potentially catastrophic.
@@hmrobert7016 There is no simpler model of a human body
Very educational. Thank you for this video will be sharing far and wide, Such an important issue the British public deserve the truth about PA's.
Thank you. Yes, I was frustrated how little the public know, so keen to build awareness.
Nobody in medicine thinks they are doctors, the trusts should be delegating duties and appropriately supervising them as was always sipposed to be the case
@@scarred10 Yes, this is what should be happening, but sadly hadn’t been the case. Things may change with today’s RCP vote.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
This is a brilliant summary of the problem with PAs in healthcare, it is such a good explanation of what the concerns and issues are regarding Physician Associates (originally called Physician Assistants) Worth a watch.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this complex and scary situation! 👏👏👏
Thank you!
Thank you very much for bringing these unqualified people to my attention. I will make sure that no AA or PA does anything to me that they are not qualified to do, should I ever find myself in hospital.
How will you know if an AA is qualified to look after you or a junior doctor?
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Well said Sophie! Thanks for speaking out.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you so much for making this Informative video! Hopefully the general public will be more educated with this important issue
👍🏻
Congratulations on an excellent clear video explaining the very real perils of PAs. We in the BSIR British society of interventional radiology voted for a halt in recruitment of PAs in our recent AGM. We also pointed out some of the problems in our recent article in Clinical radiology. There are only 3 PAs in our specialty so far, but there are more posts advertised.......
There does seem to be a push from somewhere to steam ahead despite concerns. Thanks for taking the time to give this positive feedback, it means a lot to know it resonates across different specialties.
Fantastic piece of content here Sophie, so so important that patients are aware of what is happening in their NHS and creating simple, straightforward explanations like this is the only way that they will know. Very big thank you from a JD here knowing that our consultant colleagues like yourself are aware and fighting on our side for the betterment of patient safety! 🙌
This really means a lot to me, thank you for commenting. I really wanted to produce something balanced and factual. Absolutely support JDs and hope we can keep you in the NHS! 🤞🏻
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I, having worked in one of the largest PA employing trusts in the UK, can tell you a few things.
There is nothing personal about my comments about PAs. Like every profession- there are some who are extremely nice and some who are not. I treat them with respect no matter who they are. My comments are not ill informed nor misguided, having seen many unsafe practices take place at my trust when PAs work outside their remit. The problem is that a 2 year degree which is not medically trained to the same level, is doing the same work as doctors up to registrar level! And regarding less recognition and respect- this is completely untrue given that PAs work in their specialty for many years and know the system and seniors much better than rotational trainees. Given that PAs knew when they applied at the age of 21 (minimum) they should have known there was minimal career progression and could have easily applied to GEM is a problem I cannot solve. Now the pay is the cherry on top. A doctor would have to work for at least 5 years (after 5 years of medical school)- passing multiple exams, jumping through portfolio hoops, getting thrown across the country in order to earn THE SAME AMOUNT as their “so called assistant”.
So maybe you should stop insinuating all doctors are biased and ill informed and take a second to think “maybe doctors are frustrated because there are safety concerns for patients and they can’t get the training needed to give better care for patients” or will you follow your “herd” mentality and not think laterally for at least one second.
I've heard plots about how GPs are being sidelined in fabour of PAs. Doctoring on the cheap even though they are nowhere near doctors.
What is the solution? How can we the public or GPs show we are not in favour of this.
PAs are not physicians. They name is deceptive. The people who allowed this mess to happen is who we should be annoyed with not necessarily the PAs themselves. It pays a decent wage so I'm not surprised it's a popular role.
Thank you for being brave enough to speak out.
There is more noise and discontent, so NHS England are starting to sit up and listen, I do think things may change. In the meantime, you can ask which health care practitioners you are seeing at the GP surgery or in hospital and if it is a PA, you could ask if what their role and supervision will be.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
*GASP* an ACTUAL NHS Doctor being naughty and speaking the truth?!?!
Honestly, thank you so much for being a brave Doctor and exposing these dangerous people who are being hired! I appreciate it!!!
Thanks. I don’t think they are dangerous people, but they are being put in difficult positions, encouraged by seniors to be involved in job roles way beyond their competence. I appreciate most of them are just trying their best. The public deserve to be aware what is going on!
@@DrSophieGP an example of the negative connotation above through putting the role down in your video - the idea all PA's are dangerous is extremely damaging and unfair. Imagine if all consultants said GP's are 'dangerous people' due to a variation in training. It is not fair.
Public awareness and putting down a profession at the same time doesn't cancel the latter out. After regulation I am hoping there will be more awareness + limitations of the PA role, without the need to put an entire profession down
🤞
@@Sonia-ig9fj This is why I replied to this comment to make it clear they are not ‘dangerous people’ and I also stated the same in the video.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
Brilliant. We need to spread this so people know what they are facing
Yes, I think it’s important to raise public awareness of the issue.
There are some places in London where PAs have literally hijacked the deptt and would make Rota for doctors. Most unfortunate thing is when they are backed up by some registrars and consultants as they believe PA stay in the deptt for years while junior doctors keep rotating so priority is given to PAs.
@@faisalkhanswati3521 I didn’t even get round to mentioning the rotating issue!
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
this is ridiculous. thanks for sharing your concerns. 👏🏽
Very informative and clearly explained. It's a shame that priority is being given to building less standards of care for the masses with posts like the PA's and AA's. Now I know better.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you for your time and invaluable summary on one of the hottest healthcare topics of the year. It looks like unregulated markets either drive away doctors or raise the bar too high for the entry into specialty training. Nothing new. What's disconcertingly strange is that, a highly centralised system designed this model of care. One expects this to happen in insurance-based systems, such as in most European healthcare systems. Heading towards privatisation is a fact in many systems, but role fragmenting with little to no regulation is a bit steep.
My first NHS role was made redundant 12 years ago. I could never get back in (sorry, long story) having originally trained overseas. Then Brexit came. This was another straw on the camel's back. And now we're where we are. But let's hope it can only get better after those 'never events' which shook many walks of life. Wishing everyone good luck and a win-win by the end this settles. Kind regards, Andreea
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf not sure I understand your point but I wrote a response letter in the HSJ years ago and may have expressed a similar thought when it came, at the time, about discussions on public health specialists, given that they all have various backgrounds, two registers, etc. 'Specialism' stems out of a primary degree. All PA are welcome to join the ranks, it's just that routes will never match an identical value stream of a doctor. Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge.
As a doctor I am not the one who holds a whole cake. And I never took a slice of a cake which I held responsibility for, without putting the community I served first. I am privileged to have gained a very highly competitive entry into the medical school at the time I wanted to study medicine. I still stand tall yet reflect on my whole career veering with a humble and deep contemplation.
Wishing every single PA to achieve a fulfilling career
@@andreeasteriu2073 "Doctors grow up with a high and acute awareness of the risk and uncertainties they face in practice. Responsibilities are huge"
and why is that you think a PA cannot be brought around to the same level of awareness. is it because PAs didnt do the same 5-6yrs of medical school. sure, PAs have 2yrs of medical training. but who says that learning for PA stops after PA school. that literally is just the beginning.
in the world of such advanced technology, free information, creative online teaching platforms (think medical youtubers vids such as osmosis, medical ninja, armando) geekymedics. even traditional medical textbooks like oxford handbook that is freely aviable to anyone in a capitalist market. what is there stopping PAs from eventually learning and accumulating same level of knowledge / sense of responsibility as a medical doctor? why does eveyone seem to think that growth for PAs is capped at PA school and PAs are not capable of learning anything past PA school. whereas medical students keep growing post medical school and retain the ability to learn and continue growth.
having said all tht you sound like a sensible person. thank you for sharing your views.
This is what we have been waiting for! A simple explanation of what is happening in the NHS the beginnings of a two tier health system that favours people who can afford private healthcare. The public need to be made aware of what is happening and this will hopefully help them to understand at the same time why doctors are so disillusioned and disheartened. We need to look after our doctors or we will lose them.
I hope people understand how brave you have been creating this video.
Thank you
Thank you, hoping it will help a little with public awareness.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you for the insightful video. It should be played in GP / OP waiting rooms across the country. It's a shame that the historically reputable NHS is being devalued and deskilled. It's abhorrent that the 'be kind' rule from the GMC was as a consequence of doctors like yourself highlighting the legitimate patient safety concerns around PAs. The disturbing thing is neither the GMC, Royal Colleges or Trusts have any idea of what PAs should be doing and this has been exploited where we're now seeing PAs in tertiary units taking referrals. It's demoralising.
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thanks for raising awareness Sophie, the public deserves honesty and the right to choose and without this type of content are loved ones and families are at a huge risk.
❤️
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thanks for highlighting what we’re all thinking Sophie (speaking as a GP who assessed a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetic presenting in DKA in the Emergency Department today who had been seen by a PA who had totally disregarded their highly obvious symptoms several weeks earlier!!)
Gosh, there are so many frightening reports. Surely NHSE & colleges like the RCGP are going to have to act 🤞🏻
I am now a senior hospital doctor and am also worried about this development and in particular how it's being implemented. I have had student PAs attached to my firm and while they have all been nice people, their underlying clinical knowledge has been - so far - much less than the medical students also attached to the firm.
Fair enough, one might say - different roles, different requirements. But then the roles need to be more clearly defined and separated.
This isn't to say that there isn't space for non-doctors to work within a medical team. When I was a junior doctor, in one job I did we had Medical Support Workers. They were _not_ necessarily clinically trained, would shrivel up in horror if patients referred to them as doctors and would rapidly correct them (they also had a very distinctive uniform to help delineate this difference), but they were extremely helpful in terms of helping to keep the smooth running of a medical firm going. They might chase up scans to ensure they would happen in time, they might liaise with other specialties to ensure referrals happened, they would help you find the correct form (back in the day when paper forms ruled pre-electronic patient records), they would come to inform the medics if a patient confided they didn't understand what was happening so that it could be explained again by the doctors, they would help new junior doctors settle in to a firm and explain the ways of doing things. Although not compulsory, some were trained in taking blood samples or fitting IV cannulae. There was no blurring of the lines, and they were valued and even loved by the medics in the team.
I've also worked with some wonderful Advanced Nurse Practitioners (ANPs), some of whom do have prescribing rights and rights to order ionising radiation. They are usually very senior nurses even before they go into their ANP training, and importantly have years, sometimes decades, of clinical experience at that point already. Crucially, they have an instinct or an at-glance assessment ability of when a patient is unwell, they "know" (in the same way that a senior nursing sister will know when a patient is unwell - surprise: many of the ANPs _are_ nursing sisters prior to ANP training). Secondly, they have a real understanding of what they do and do not know. That I'm not sure is always present with PAs.
I'm not necessarily totally against PAs as a concept - and let's face it, they're not going away - but they do I'm afraid need to be more "Assistants" than "Associates" for the lines not to be blurred and for safety to be maintained; when people say the PA system works in America, it's for this reason. I can see them being _part_ of the clinical team, as long as these are done and as long as there is proper supervision and regulation, but I personally would not put them on the same rota as doctors, i.e. there should still be a minimum number of doctors on a given day, and the PAs should be supernumerary or at least separate and not influencing the number of doctors there. They should also be very clear at self-identifying themselves as PAs and correcting patients if they misidentify them as doctors. I know PAs will say they do this, and hopefully most do, but I've heard of some obfuscating when asked by a patient and saying they are a "clinician", "a member of the clinical team", a "locum" and so on - all of which may strictly be true, but potentially confusing for a patient.
In the same way that you don't want just a Police Community Support Officer (PCSO) turning up when you are being attacked and in fear for your life (you want and need a fully-trained Police Officer), you also do not want a PA being the one to manage your life-threatening emergency solo, but potentially they could be helpful in the actual physical presence of and working side-by-side with the correct doctor.
Thank you for replying with these excellent points. I totally agree.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf I'm sorry that you feel that this was an attack, but actually if you read what I wrote you'll see that I said that I'm not against PAs as a concept and that there is space for others to work within clinical teams. Expressing concerns and sharing one's own experiences are not hate speech or being vindictive; not all critique is punitive, and it is part of working in the NHS to be open to scrutiny and appraisal. In fact, the most important people are not one's colleagues, be they PAs, ANPs or doctors; above all, our responsibility and absolute duty of care is to the patients, and what is best for them. Much of what is written about PAs (not all, I grant you) is with this in mind.
I may be wrong, but this appears to have been a copy-pasted reply, since it doesn't recognise what I wrote above - I'm certainly not doing the same "grunt work" as you anymore and am not in competition - there is a _lot_ more responsibility in my role, and that justifies any differences you speak of. But, crucially, that does not mean you do not have your own part to play within the NHS, it just needs to be properly defined - partly to protect you and your colleagues - rather than made up as one goes along without due consideration, as this and previous Governments are/have been doing.
EDIT: having looked through the rest of the comments, I can see that I was not wrong when I suggested you were copy-pasting this reply which has nothing to do with the post it replies to. You have made the *exact same reply* to posts by eccentricbeliever7, luxdoctor4747, rubysharma8952, iansstinson8684, doctorlisaclinic9000, hmzbn, TT-fn1xb, faisalhanswati3521, andreeasteriu2073, bonariablackie4047, YvonneHrusa-id2xl, TheMrsar28, livvy601, mystrength5640, peterdavidburke, gujralsarabjeet, sanjaylakhani2263...and I'm sure many others. I also see from your profile that you joined UA-cam on 22nd March 2024 and that at the time of posting this, all your replies to the posters above were made exactly 18 hours ago.
You are therefore either a bot posting this randomly, part of a troll farm, or perhaps most worryingly of all genuinely a PA with an axe to grind posting this randomly in scores of posts. I think that should speak for itself, and people can make judgments for themselves about whether to value what you have written.
I do care and I am sorry for these ordeals. Though as a victim of a bad experience from actual doctors and nobody is willing to save me. If actual doctors are now having a bad experience, it can feel like "What goes around, comes around", "You reap what you sow".
My concern isn’t with doctors, it is with patients. Patients are the ones who will ultimately suffer. I’m sorry you have had a bad experience, the NHS is not in a good way, but taking on cheaper, inexperienced workforce will only make the problems worse.
@@DrSophieGP I am extremely humbled by your response. Well said.
My deepest apologies for venting my frustrations, please forgive my unkind words. You are right. I do agree with you.
It is very kind of you to raise these issues. You have put a lot of work into this.
There is so much I wish to say, but I cannot say them here. And you probably already know.
Best wishes.
Great video. Although very upsetting as well.
I'm well aware of this and have twice had receptionists try to pass them off to me as a doctor. Not realising themselves maybe that they're not the same thing.
This is not good and has to be paused. It's more fully med school trained doctors that we need.
This is just going to lead to a two tier system.
Yes, it’s really important patients are made aware of who they are seeing!
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Well spoken. It needs to be said. It would be wrong to blame the people involved. However I am sad to hear how many politicians condemn the BMA for speaking the truth. It is almost as if they care more about hurt feelings than about patient safety
Yes, the BMA are leading the way in this, whilst most of the medical royal colleges and the government are dithering.
@@DrSophieGP I don't think the way they are leading the way is entirely appropriate. It is definitely important for the valuable + experienced voices of Dr's to be heard. A very biased approach from the BMA regarding scope of practice from a trade union.
NHS chief executive noted -
“All parts of the NHS share a desire to improve patient safety and we know that effective team-work is essential to that objective. It is surprising to learn therefore that the BMA does not seem to have engaged with the Faculty of Physician Associates in developing this union guidance about a different staff group.
"It is to be hoped that further BMA contributions to this important discussion are now carried out differently, and employers across the NHS and MAPs themselves would appreciate the opportunity to play a part in this.”
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you., For this.. So concerning!
A beautiful, Very large Hospital is very close to my home. This Hospital is Closing Down! 😮
Being New in the U.K., I’ve Noticed there are Soo few Private and NHS Emergency Facilities., Every Town, And Village needs to have its own 24/7 Emergency Services, they Don’t!
I’m absolutely surprised by this, as There’s a Shortage of Beds, And medical Facilities!
NHS what are you Doing?
When is THE NHS going to build more Training Hospitals for Nurses, Doctors and Physios? Etc. 😮
THIS is a Vital and Key point missing to Facilitate ongoing Doctors Training, ABSOLUTELY appalling!
😣
Dear fellow members of the society and BMA community and anti PA medical inflencers
for once use your critical thinking skills and think. think really hard. really hard and free of biases. what is there stopping physician associates from learning and gaining the same wealth of knowledge as a doctors? is end of medical school end of learning for doctors? NO. so why dafaq is everyone thinking that learning for PA stops after two years of their PA school. honestly society is one fucking dumbojumbo, typical fucking heard mentality. open your flipping mind and think for one second. THINK use your brain. why would learning stop for a PA after PA school?
also what difference does going to PA school vs medical school make? for people looking down on Physician associate education. are you trying to imply that if you do an MBBS course you get given some special magic portion that will grant you some sort of 6th sense and wondrous ability to make all that diagnosis in the world? or are you perhaps implying that there is this "secret book of medicine" filled with secret tips on how to make 100% accurate medical diagnosis, accessible only to students on the MBBS course? the point is both PAs and med students get taught the same concepts. half of useless facts that you learn in med school through rote learning medical students will probably forgot couple of years after leaving med school. but what they teach in PA school is hard and fast medicine. important practical stuff that gives PAs a good start off to be working as a functional member of the team.
both PA and medical students learn from the same source material same shit like : online teaching platform, medical youtubers (osmosis, armando hasuragan, medic ninja etc), geekymedics. they also get taught by the same professionals.
infact PA are being exploited. do same work as doctors. work under same pressure, same limited resources as doctors with less recognition, less respect, less career progression and for less pay.
why is no one talking about this?
plenty of qualified medical school graudated, medical licence holding medical doctors have also killed patients due to neglect and have also misdiagnosed patients. lets not pretend this has never been the case. why is every one ignoring that there are bad apples in every bag. every doctor is not expected to known everything there is to know under medicine so why are they holding PAs to such high expectations. would you expect a very junior very very junior F1 / f2 to know everyhting about medicine. would you expect them to every how to manage a complex patients from day 1 of their job? and if they failed to manage these complex pt's would you consider them unsafe, un-qualified, incompetent? no you wouldnt so why are you holding PA under such unrealistic expectations and then bashing them when can't meet these expectations? why are these so called doctors so dumb? why is society so dumb?
Physician associate as a profession is being bullied and scapegoated. why are these so called brilliant medical minds failing to see this. typical heard mentality. no wonder society is failing hardly making any real progress.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
This is interesting debate. As a senior radiology professional this reminds me of reading the stories whilst at university about how radiologists didn't like the fact that radiographers pushed for learning how to read and interpret x-rays independently. This is now common place in the profession. I myself am a sonographer I independently report on GP requested ultrasound scans as well obstetrics and gyne scans. Is this not just the start of a major dynamic change in your profession?
I think the key issues is that the qualifications are not credited, PAs & AAs do not bring unique skills to the MDT, and they are replacing doctors on rotas and in GP.
Brilliant video 👏 As a GP registrar I worked along side PA’s who although lovely people aren’t qualified to be seeing the patients independently like they were, and then they knock on my door asking me to sign prescriptions for patients they have seen. I don’t have time to re-review their patient and decide if this prescription is appropriate.
Physician assistants may have a role on wards, joining on ward rounds and showing observation charts and drug charts to the doctors and taking bloods and then writing discharge summaries. They do not have a role independently seeing patients and definitely not working in GP practices seeing undifferentiated patients behind closed doors.
Comments above have mentioned how they are great at taking the ‘simple cases’ and leaving the complex cases to a doctor, but i argue there are very rarely ‘simple’ cases. A a sore throat can be an oropharyngeal cancer, reflux can be oesophageal cancer, cystitis can be lichen sclerosis etc
If you didn’t study the zebra’s at medical school you won’t look for them and things will get missed. Stopping the expansion of PA’s is in the interest of patient safety.
Exactly 👍🏻
Hi. Can i ask about your comments about an online course where they only do 4 weeks clinical placements?
I thought in order to be eligible to sit the national exam in UK they had to have completed a certain amount of clinical hours and a certain amount of theory hours? How on earth would a university get away with only giving them 4 weeks clinical placement placement.
Do you feel the same way about nurse practitioners who are diagnosing patients... Because they make horrendous mistakes and they dont even have to have a science background to do nursing etc. A supposed very experienced senior nurse diagnosed my grandfather as having a boil on his leg and just came every week to dress it but it was cancer.. This happens constantly with nurses so do you feel they shouldn't be able to diagnose?
Also just wondering what your viewpoint is on the new Doctor Apprenticeship? I had thought it was going to be great for people who were already working in NHS and had the qualifications but couldn't afford to stay out of work to go to university but thats not what is happening.
In answer to your question, yes I have been seen by a Physician associate in the GP practice where i am registered but it was only for a review so just having my blood pressure checked but she told me straight away who she was, what her role was and what her limits were. I was happy enough as it was just a blood pressure check.
All of the PA courses are unaccredited, so universities can do as they like, as far as I know. No, I don't feel the same way about nurse practitioners, who have very clear, accredited training and exams, with agreed scope of practice, regulation and supervision. I don't know too much about the doctor apprenticeship schemes, but I can't really understand how someone can work through medical school and still manage to learn everything we need to know to qualify as a doctor!
I thought the same about the Doctor apprenticeship, maybe they would be more likely to burn out having to work also. I thought maybe the HCPC would gave been better organisation to regulate Physician Associates but thats just my view and i not a medic or anything else but its nice to chat to people to get their viewpoint on whats going on. Im from Northern Ireland and we do have Physician Associates but they haven't been as integrated into the hospitals and GP practices as they have in the rest of the UK. We only train 20 of them a year and the majority of them leave anyway because there isnt many jobs here. We are such a small island anyway, we dont even have nurse apprenticeships here because we are so backward😁.
Thanks for chatting about your viewpoint.
@@debsbraiden3955 Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts and experiences!
Very clear explanation for the general public well done. DOI I have been a GP for 30 years and feel this is very dangerous.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thankyou
great video. You are a true queen
🙌🏻
What’s your opinion of having nurse practitioners or paramedic practitioners in primary care?
They aren’t as contentious because paramedics and nurses have a wealth of knowledge. PAs do not. Also if a PA makes a mistake, you can’t hold them to account. Case in point, the PA that misdiagnosed Emily Chesterson is still locuming in London because she didn’t want to work under close supervision.
@@TheMoo1995what!! That’s mental!!
@@TheMoo1995 regulation will occur by then of the year - so they will be held accountable for their actions. There are also PA's with a wealth of knowledge over 10+ years of experience which shouldnt be devalued simply based on a title. The scope of practice does need to be clear but they shouldnt be undervalued.
@@Sonia-ig9fj I highly doubt that GMC regulation will bring accountability. It is likely that they will either persecute the Supervising clinician.
As for wealth of knowledge, If a physiotherapist/Nurse or someone of another healthcare background retrained as a PA, then their valuable contribution will be from their respective healthcare background. However, a PA genuinely adds nothing to the team that a doctor can't add. That is why their role should be supernumerary.
Furthermore, PAs are going to get shafted by the government. It is only a matter of time before the funding dries up, mistakes will add up because PAs are forced into roles they are not qualified for and the media will crucify them. It may be a good time to be a PA but if I was a smart person, I would know that it's only a matter of time before the government turns against them.
@@TheMoo1995 I believe regulation will lea d to accountability as once regulated, any complaints will be investigation and the PA may lose their GMC registration.
I think there is a definitely a place for PA's in the NHS, especially with increasing population and workload, I don't think that will change. There are areas where PA's have worked very well with Dr's. There are also several highly competent PA's who are contributing to providing a high quality of care. Alot needs to be sorted out - especially junior Dr pay restoration. I guess time will tell.
To become a GP, one needs MINIMUM 5 YEARS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL AND A MINIMUM 5 YEARS TRAINING AFTER QUALIFYING. So enter medical school at age 18, MINIMUM age before you become a GP, is 28, with tons of knowledge, skills and experience.
And what has the number of years for doctors have anything to do with PAs who aren't doctors? PAs only need the two years because they're not and do not want to be doctors while they work alongside doctors because they're the ones with the number of years training.
@@ThePushUKLifestylethen why are they doing illegal procedures???? Can’t wait till the government turn on these useless PAs they are the thickest people I’ve met. Rejected from medicine and probably from their parents too lol
@@ThePushUKLifestyle But the whole point is that they are in fact taking roles meant for doctors, replacing them on rotas, in clinics, in surgery and in GP practices.
@@DrSophieGP and that's why their profession was created. To fit into those rotas in clinics, surgeries and GP practices but not as doctors or to replace doctors but as PAs that they're trained to be. You mislead gullible people by saying they're taking roles meant for doctors and replacing them. It's been stated severally that PAs DO NOT REPLACE doctors. PAs are medics, like it or not and are now part of the MDT just like any other health care profession in the NHS. And you don't have to be so condescending about their years of training. Stop trying to fit them into the doctor role and falsely accusing them of taking doctor jobs when in fact, they're hired to be PAs and into a PA role which includes GPs, surgeries, clinics as they are trained to be.
@@ThePushUKLifestyleYour not invited to my birthday party
Well done
the RCGP at their council meeting last Friday have adopted policies which are closer to the BMA view
Yes, this was very interesting. Still lacking clarity on if PAs can see undifferentiated patients though.
@@DrSophieGPthey can but I dont agree with it,they should see delegated cohorts appropriate for their experience. No hosppital or GP should employ PA they cannot supervise and mentor adequately.
@@scarred10 absolutely 👍🏻
You have done a great job ! But things won’t change unless we come on the street.
I think building public awareness is a really important start.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
Thank you for speaking out about this important issue.
The appalling increase of Never Events as a result of PAs is terrifying.
Raising awareness of this issue is not bullying. 'Some' PAs are entirely overconfident, which is dangerous. It's a scary illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
💯
I dont think it is fair to say never events are a result of PA's.
The highest causes of never events last year were listed as wrong site procedure (139)/ retained foreign body post procedure (50)/ wrong implant (25)/ missed nasogastric tube (18) etc
Many health care professionals including Dr's are involved in these Never events
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
@@reesee-dh5bf PA's complete a 2 year masters degree and their undergraduate degree doesn't even have to be science based.
It takes 10+ years to become a GP, with additional years study for specialisms.
I fully stand by my comment, especially where human lives, rather than inflated egos and/or insecurities, are at stake.
@@reesee-dh5bf Evidence: The NHS had 282 Never Events in 23/24 data. The UK has 376,000 docs = 0.07%
There have been 12 Never Events linked to PA's in Scotland. Scotland has *143* PA's = 8.39%
PA ratio is x100 more Never Events based on the Scottish data.
PA's are putting lives at very serious risk of harm.
www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Provisional-publication-NE-1-April-31-January-2024.pdf
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2024-01-17/debates/bde42233-6731-4370-96db-6836666abbab/DraftAnaesthesiaAssociatesAndPhysicianAssociatesOrder2024#:~:text=A%20freedom%20of%20information%20request,in%20Scottish%20health%20authority%20areas.&text=fact%20is%20that%20the%20associates,qualifications%20or%20expertise%20as%20doctors
Oh God it is scary. Thanks for sharing this important information.
your comment is so frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
The British public do not have a clue how serious this is. PAs / AAs do not have the medical science competence to see and treat patients - yet they are. There are many cases where patients have died as a result of patients being treated by PAs.
You have done the right thing trying to protect patients.
It is simple for the public, how much do you value your health and that of your family health. If you do - make sure you know who you are being seen by.
👏🏻
Interesting
Yes i believe i hada phone call with a P A,lovely to me,but felt she was more suited to sales position than understanding my problem
A major point Missing, Soo many Pharmaceuticals-can have MAJOR Side Effects which can Mimic soo many diseases, on presentation in an Emergency or even in a cumulative manner!
I’m sure and hoping this 2 year degreed Course, will emphasis this!
Yes, I’m not clear on how much pharmacology is covered on the course. Clearly won’t be anything comparable to a medical degree and ongoing training.
@@DrSophieGPits 6 months pharmacology before clinical placement ,I personally had done ot all before at undergrad level and never used most of the material in practice since.From working alongside interns and SHOs,I know as much about the subject as most and details are always checked against online resources or ward pharmacist when needed kust like the junior docs do who like us all learn mostly on the job after graduation.
@@scarred10 I’ve since learned all the courses are different (as I don’t think accredited, with no consensus of syllabus?) @adam_skeen on Twitter was a PA and now a med student said: “Many PA courses are severely deficient in pharmacology and prescribing content - mine included.” Others may have the topic well covered, but hard to do pharmacology if you haven’t had chance to cover physiology & anatomy sufficiently.
@@DrSophieGPits correct the syllabi are not standardised since theres no legally overseeing body like the GMC(up until last week I believe,they will be standardised now)but the faculty of PAs out of the RCP has issued a recommended one for over a decade.We certainly studied anatomy from dissection but physiology was embedded in clinical medicine rather than a separate subject,you were expected to study the recommended resources outside class time.our pharma in Ireland was certainly enough theoretical content(I did several semesters of drug synthesis and design at undergrad)but no prescribing classes.PAs would need to do a prescribers course if the legislation to allow that ever goes through.In Ireland we only have 1 course and 70 working PAs so theres no disrespect from junior docs.They all treat me like a doctor but I refuse any task I havent trained to do or feel is outside my experience I have no problem admitting that.
@@scarred10 I’m sure you’re a credit to your team, great to hear, thank you.
is this another doctor jealous that a PA does 2 years ? A PA knows their limits and is their to help doctors and be utilised by doctors rather then creating a seperate barrier.
It sounds like you haven’t watched the video.
Wouldn't know haven't seen a GP in years they're scarce as hens teeth
Yes, although ironically there are many GPs out of work now due to government cuts and the ARRS scheme. Crazy! Patients want to see GPs and GPs want to see patients. ☹️
PAs need to have 1500 hours at least of clinical placement. Also, it a 2 year postgraduate degree on top of a science undergraduate degree, it is competitive as it may need a ucat score and MMI. It's not fair to say PAs are unsafe compared to doctors as the population sizes are vastly different and the data needs to be standardised for a fair comparison. PAs may not know 'zebra' conditions but they can always refer to a colleague for patients outside of their scope of practice as can doctors and advanced nurse practitioners who also see patients in GP. PAs are therefore well aware of emergency conditions for patient safety purposes. We need to stop scapegoating the whole profession because of one PAs wrongdoing and fear mongering to the public. What should be done is increasing the public's awareness of the profession and the scope of practice to employer as PAs cannot give medication without a prescriber signing off. PAs have been around for decades in other countries and they work, they have also been around in the UK for a fair while however only gained negative attention as of late, because of the potential encroachment of doctors' training due to unclear supervision which the GMC should clear up with regulation.
You can’t ask for help if the issue is in the ‘unknown unknown’ area, only the ‘known unknown’ area. There are many examples of undergraduate degrees that are acceptable for the PA course application, including zoology, botany and even law. You mention people should be made more aware of the scope of practice, where is this agreed? You mention the GMC, but they have made it clear they will not set scope of practice. Supervision is also unclear. Unfortunately, although I do feel sorry for the many brilliant PAs stuck in the middle, doing their best trying to help out patients and the NHS, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence and patient safety is at risk.
@@DrSophieGPyou are right, the role has been expanded and extended without due diligence in SOME environments - so why not place the focus on what PAs should be doing and reprimanding the organisations responsible for the wrongful expansion? I can’t understand why you think the correct approach is to target the profession as a whole? Have you thought about the blowback this has day to day for PAs just trying to do their jobs? At the end of the day, no one in their right mind wants poor patient outcomes or to work in an unsafe environment, but the onus needs to be placed on the employing institutions for incorrectly using PAs, instead of on the individuals who have spent years of their life training to help the public. That’s the only way helpful change will be able to happen.
It’s also worth noting that PAs have been around for over a decade in the UK and so patients could be seeing PAs anywhere on a spectrum of experience - some could have 10 years experience in GP and some could be newly qualified - the same as doctors. So to use the fact that they do a 2 year masters as evidence of their lack of capability is ludicrous.
@@Mimi04933 Unfortunately PAs are really stuck in the middle of all this mess and I really feel sympathy for them. I am really trying to show this is not the fault of PAs, doing their best with good intentions, but a systemic issue, at the fault of senior medical leadership. Experience doesn’t equate to competency though. There’s a reason an Emergency Medicine doctor can’t work in GP and a GP trainee can’t work independently until they have passed through years of training and very difficult exams. The issue is the profession as a whole, the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation is a patient safety concern.
@@DrSophieGP I would have to disagree that PAs are “stuck” in the middle - it appears doctors are hanging them out to dry on purpose. Where is this concern around clinical paramedics who are let loose in primary care after going to uni to be trained only to work on an ambulance? Some would argue this makes them even less qualified than PAs to be seeing routine conditions that they’re not taught about in uni, but no one seems to care about this? They aren’t even taught how to perform routine examinations like breast or DRE, which in recent years had lead to things like missed cancer diagnoses.
You also made a clear distinction between Drs and PAs in your comment without highlighting the PA side - trainee GPs need to pass exams to work independently as GPs - PAs do not work independently in primary care, they work under the supervision of a GP throughout their career, no matter how much experience they have.
It is also the case that GP surgeries have “preceptorship” years for newly qualified PAs, as a form of further training on the job for those with no primary care experience, or those who have just passed the national licensing exam.
I agree that experience is not equal to competency, but in your video you seemed to use the length of the PA degree to call them incompetent compared to doctors as they study for longer. This now seems to contradict your view that experience doesn’t equal competency.
I think the important thing to note here is that PAs are not trying to be doctors, but instead, some institutions are putting them in positions to work outside their scope.
Ultimately it probably all comes down to the underfunding of the NHS which sometimes leads to the use of PAs, as well as Clinical Pharmacists, Clinical Paramedics and Advanced Nurse Practitioners as cheap labour.
I think doctors would have a lot more support from all parties involved if they focused on calling out the root cause of the issue instead for fear mongering the public and degrading another profession.
I think there needs to be more of an uprising from PAs on this issue of poor working conditions, but some are too scared to speak up out of fear of losing their jobs.
If doctors could put their disdain for the role itself aside and team up with PAs as well as other Allied Health Professionals to address the root cause, I think everyone would get much further in the fight for patient safety.
@@Mimi04933 But the point is how PAs are being used, that they are seeing undifferentiated patients in primary & secondary care without adequate supervision. Doctors have qualifications, very rigorous training and then experience. It’s not one or the other. Other members of the healthcare team have distinct roles, training and regulation, so it’s not right to muddy the debate using ‘whataboutery’. I honestly don’t want to upset PAs, or cause a divide, but patient safety is paramount.
Hi Sophie
I 100% agree that Dr's need pay restoration ASAP. However, I think the wider issues of a training competition is not directly due to the PA role. If the PA role did not exist all these issues will not disappear. I think there are entirely valid points especially around scope of practice and patient safety. However, these are all things the GMC has stated they are working with all stakeholders to achieve the best outcome. I think conversation has become hostile on social media and the latest action by the BMA to release a scope of practice out of their remit - without consulting any stakeholders is very questionable.
The difference in pay is unfair and needs to be resolved. All health care professionals support junior doctors. However the conversation around PA's has become toxic - implying all PA's are 'dangerous' is unfair. Some PA's have been working in the same department for 10+ years and are contributing everyday to providing a high quality of care for patients and are appreciated by their doctor colleagues and supervisors (despite significant backlash many dr's have spoken in support of the role). As well as highlighting all the reasons it doesn't work - there are a copious amount of cases where it is working. I agree regulation is necessary for patient safety - which the GMC hopes with be completed by the end of this year. This will ensure PA's are held accountable for their actions. I don't really understand the argument of 'blurring the lines' as most patients do not even know what a GMC number is - they have confirmed associate professional will have an A before - so other HCP's are aware of the role. PA's are not a subitution for Dr's. However, as the growing healthcare needs of the population increasing - PA's can help to ease the workload of Dr's and help to contribute to providing a high-quality of care - this is already occurring in the UK (demonstrated by several studies). It has also been successful in the US.
The valid concerns of Dr's should be addressed - the GMC has said this is imperative that everyone is included in the conversation. However, actively putting down the profession through comparing to Dr's training is not helpful. PA's are not meant to be doctors. They have a specific training - although criticised has led to the development of excellent PA's who are actively helping patients and colleagues on a daily basis. They should not be undervalued.
I hope Dr's are treated alot better by the government. However, I think PAs have a valuable contribution to make to the NHS. Regulation will allow for more public awareness of the role and its limitations. I don't think scaremongering is the way forward. The NHS is a sum of its parts - Dr's, nurses, admin staff, ACPs, PA's etc all have a contribution to make.
As a PA student - the negativity has affected me. Simply due to the fact that I have chosen to train in a role with the best of intentions, to help contribute to delivering of patient care, entirely aware of the limitations. Other allied health roles have said they have received backlash such as the development of nurse practitioners. However, currently are working incredibly well in the healthcare system. Whilst on placement a consultant geriatrician said when she started her training many Dr's were against the speciality as there thought it was taking over other areas of medicines - however she pointed out that over time the value is understood. She said within medicine itself there is toxicity within specialities - I think more respect for all colleagues is important. Every one has a part to play - the regulation by GMC is a good step forward - I find some opinions are put out just to put down the role rather than provide solutions of how Dr's and PA's can work well. I have seen PA's + Dr's working incredibly well together and providing a high quality of patient care.
Through regulation - the main concern of patient safety will be addressed.
Additional several Dr's have pointed out PA's on wards have increased opportunities for training - as there is someone to stay on the wards.
www.pulsetoday.co.uk/letter/letters/letter-gps-need-to-speak-out-against-the-online-abuse-pas-face/
www.birmingham.ac.uk/news-archive/2019/physician-associates-are-an-asset-to-hospital-medical-and-surgical-teams-study-finds
www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/medical-associate-professions/impact-case-studies/physician-associate-role-secondary-care-impact-case-study
Safe and effective
?
@@DrSophieGP 'some doctors are safe and effective in their clinical reasoning .don't you think so
@@sugarcan1110 Well, I would hope most doctors are!
Hi Sophie, I think some more nuanced discussion and questions are needed here. Are 3000 PAs working across the entire UK who are mostly working in GP really causing significant loss of training opportunities for junior doctors who are mostly rotating through hospital? This seems highly unlikely although it’s clear plenty of medical students and junior doctors feel this way. If they want us to be regulated then regulation with the GMC is surely a win, and if we’re focusing on safety which we should be then physician associates do need access to these opportunities too. I find it hard to believe that the numbers we exist in currently is having a significant impact. What’s clear is that the profession is currently being scapegoated for everything doctors are unhappy with.
It will incite fear in patients (and division at a very sensitive time for both professions) to tell the public that we cannot be thought of as “medics” simply due to length of training and not being doctors, you can train as a paramedic in two years and attend life threatening emergencies. What do you think we do in those two years of postgraduate training? The undergraduate course length is also 3 years to account for lack of previous degree but you didn’t mention this.
The data regarding never events you’re referring to all comes from Scotland unless you have access to more? Please can you provide more information on where, how and by who this data was collected and how much of it there is? We would also need information on access to supervision levels and the role of the supervising doctor who maintains overall clinical responsibility for the patient in these scenarios in order for people to be able to draw balanced conclusions.
Many physician associates are working in general practise where all the patients are triaged first by senior GPs who are readily available if requested by patient or needed for input by clinician so difficult to see that we are replacing doctors (particularly in current numbers) or unsafe? Patients want to see doctors but current capacity doesn’t allow for that and demand for minor illness appointments isn’t going anywhere, so difficult to see how we are not needed? Most physician associates are over cautious because we are fully aware that two years of training leaves a lot of unknown unknowns hence the very clear and strict emphasis on working under a GP/consultant, asking for support, and discussing red flags and safety netting well with patients throughout training.
Regarding doctors struggling to find work, this is a situation which needs addressing urgently but I think it’s ingenuous to blame physician associates. Interesting statistics posted on doctorsUK Reddit forum the other day, this struggle is in fact due to competition for jobs from the high levels of immigrant doctors we currently have in the UK.
I am not a Physician Associate but very well said. You guys are definitely being bullied and just watching this video and how condescending her tone of voice sounded in 2:03 about your two year training is awful and parts of the video when she rolls her eyes. I'm glad that not all doctors feel this way. I'm glad that you guys are being regulated by non other than the GMC. The facts in this video are all wrong and it'll be very interesting for her to bring in concrete evidence with every point she's mentioned. She's just carrying a story she has heard and spreading false rumours. Firstly, PAs always address themselves as PAs and not doctors and PAs want to be PAs and not doctors. It's so ridiculous for her to say that these PAs are taking your jobs on the wards and all.
PAs are not a profession, they offer absolutely nothing unique to the MDT. They are a tool of a government and are being ushered in against the will of the majority of the medical profession by seriously unscrupulous means in order to pave the way for privatisation.
The undergraduate course that qualifies for a PA masters could be zoology, or even law in some cases, so in no way replaces the 3 years of pre-clinical studies in a medical degree. Even a biomedical science degree isn't comparable. Yes, the Never Events data comes from Scotland, as discussed in the House of Lords debate (link attached in description). The guidelines for PAs working on the ARRS scheme states that they must be seeing undifferentiated patients, so certainly not all triaged by GPs. The point about the unknown unknowns is PAs may not always know when to ask for help. I certainly don't want to stoke division, and as I said in the video, there are loads of fantastic PAs working in the NHS doing their best for patients, but the concern is the lack of clarity on scope of practice, supervision and regulation. The RCGP have now stated they disagree the GMC should be regulating PAs, so even that is still up in the air. Patients have a right to know what is going on. I also mentioned in the video there are many problems with the NHS right now, but this concern over PAs/AAs is just one that many people have no idea about.
@@DrSophieGP You're so condescending in your video. How can PAs not know when to ask for help when that is literally what they're trained to do at Master's level after holding first class and 2:1 BSc degrees?So because someone's studied zoology, they're in capable of escalating a problem that they have been intensely trained to do at Level 7? Just because you want to compare their two year intensive postgraduate degree studying medicine modules to 5 years of medicine for those who want to become doctors? Even doctors need to know when to ask for help regardless of their grade. Again, why are you comparing a totally different profession to doctors when they are not doctors? Physios in the ward also escalate a problem to doctors on the ward when they notice a patient's sats deteriorating for example. HCAs, Nurses do too so if it is not to bully another profession because you're comparing their roles and falsely accused them of taking doctor jobs just because you're trying to fit them into that box so that the gullible can hate on them as well. Good that the same GMC is no longer for doctors but for PAs and AAs, that way, the doctors who hate them will be forced to come to terms with PAs and AAs who are here to stay. So ridiculous. Why should PAs not see undifferentiated diagnosis when they are trained to actually do that. If you're trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in medical school that qualifies you to do this without supervision, and PAs are trained to see undifferentiated diagnosis in their two year training that qualifies them to do so but under supervision as it is for their profession then why can't they as well? Again, your problem is that you're trying to fit them into the doctor box when they're not doctors. And who is depriving patients of their rights to know? Every PA and health care professional introduce themselves by name and role so patients also know who is treating them. Just because you mentioned that there are fantastic PAs in your video doesn't erase the fact that you're also condescending towards their training with your tone of voice, eye rolling as if because they're not doctors, they're not qualified to do their job that they're actually qualified to do. The RCGP can disagree with GMC but good luck stopping the GMC. By the way, as you mentioned that a PA who misdiagnosed a patient that led to her death and scapegoating a whole PA profession, don't forget to mention the fit and healthy 46 year old postman who also died after London doctors failed to spot a blood cot just as was the case with the PA. So why is the doctor profession not being scapegoated for this too. Utter ridiculous, I guess doctors with longer years of training aren't perfect either.
@@ThePushUKLifestyle faack you ,pas don’t know shiit
Brilliant video. I despise the role of the PA so much
By the way, there are medical schools, at least one in Canada that is only 3 years as well as unsafe doctors who have put patients at risk and have killed patients too.
Cool story bro
Sophie
The logic goes like this - There is NO chef in every McDonald - with automation, computers, AI, teenagers off the street can be trained to turn out perfect burgers to feed the masses.
In fact, in the military, 18 yo kids are trained to be Medical Corpmen and are the first responders on the battle lines.
If so, the logic goes, armed with computers and AI, prompts, folks can be trained to attend to the medical needs of the masses.
You only need a few trained chefs in specialty restaurants for the rich and a few specialty trained doctors for the private hospitals for the rich.
Only if medical care was as simple as making a McDonald’s meal
That is the goal - with AI . Even Doctors are now trained with automated Electronic Health Records throwing up prompts for Quality Assurance, Hierarchical Coding, and far more detailed concepts than they would routinely have brought up.
Like I said - for the masses, PAs will do You want Drs you pay in Private settings
GP 's arent doing great job in the first place now this😮
GPs are doing their best in a system which has continually reduced funding, on a backdrop of increasingly complex and ageing population. We are managing more appointments than ever before, with less money and support to do this. Practices get paid around £160 per year per patient for as many appointments/ letters / bloods etc as needed. Imagine how much private care would cost for the same thing. The government and media have somehow managed to hoodwink a lot of the public that GPs are to blame for system failures, when the blame should be squarely put at MPs, not GPs.
@@DrSophieGP education they get is very much one dimential and lacking common sense,it is not their fault but the educatinal system and methods are out dated unfortunately. If a doctor not capable of look into individual's illnesses holistically by using methods of functional medicine, of course they will struggle understanding simple cases let alone complex cases. This is exactly why veterinary surgeons do so much better .
@@ozziegreen4850 Do you mean doctor’s education is outdated and 1-dimensional? If so, what evidence do you have for this? We do treat patients holistically. If you check NICE guidance Lifestyle measures are always first choice for chronic disease. Functional medicine is usually just a method used to lighten someone’s wallet.
@@ozziegreen4850what on earth are you talking about you plonker 😂
A.I consultations and diagnostics coming next.
lol good luck with that. Ever heard of Babylon?
Sophie,you have not done your research on PAs and they are not doctor replacements. If theyre used for that,they will make mistakes especially if unsupervised.
I’ve done a huge amount of research. They are not SUPPOSED to be doctors’ replacements, but that is exactly how they are being used by many trusts and GP practices up and down the country. This is why today the Royal College of Physicians has voted for all five motions put forward on the issue.
@@DrSophieGP then they are being misused by the NHS not a fault with the profession itself
@@scarred10 Yes, on the whole this is true. There are instances, such as the illegal prescribing of controlled drugs by PAs in Calderdale & Huddersfield trust, where the PAs should also carry blame for going beyond agreed scope.
@@DrSophieGP that isnt a scope issue which will vary within the law .that is entirely illegal regardless of scope.The supervision must have been nonexistent for that ro happen,our ward pharmacist would call that immediately if she saw it.
@@scarred10 It was apparently a common occurrence (according to the FOI info), so many must have known about it! 😵💫
your video is frustrating on a some many level in so many ways. misguided. affected by heard mentality. ill informed. full of hatred and vindictive and punitive towards the PA profession.
like bash a fellow colleague for doing pretty much the same grunt work as you, under same work pressure as you, with same limited resources as you, but for less recognition, less respect, less career progression, and eventually less pay as you.
way to go.
clearly you are one open minded, free of any biases, empathetic individual. CLEARLY .
I am not bashing a fellow colleague, I’m flagging up concerns about the roll out and expansion of a role that hasn’t got accredited university training, no consensus of scope of practice, supervision requirements, ongoing training needs, and as yet, is completely unregulated. I clearly pointed out this is not the fault of PAs who are trying their best, but this is not a time to be quiet, when patient safety is at risk. As the Royal College of Physicians has now agreed on all 5 motions put forward about PAs, it would seem this is the majority view by doctors in this country. I really do feel sympathy for PAs stuck in the middle of all this; this is the fault of the senior teams who have allowed the roll out and expansion without any due diligence.
@@DrSophieGP
then title your video appropriately.
edit your thumbnails appropriately.
don't use words that are fear mongering or disrespectful towards other professions.
@@reesee-dh5bf But I am very concerned, so the title is entirely appropriate.
im 23 first year working as a PA and I earn nearly 70 000 a year part time locating .We get payed more because we do more work .
I’m sorry, what? You do more work than doctors?!
Another shitty video bullying Physician associates and missing out half of the information on the role its self🤦.
1. There are two ways to become a physician associate the postgraduate which is 2 years and the undergraduate degree which is a integrated 4 years degree which I am going to be doing where for the first two years of the degree, I will be studying alongside med students doing the same modules and exams, then the last 2 years Id progress into basically the postgrad 2 years which is a very intense degree,
which some would say is harder than most of medicine, as med students have 5 years to learn all that knowledge and where Pa's have 2 years to learn a large proportion of that knowledge like having to learning 800 conditions in a year and how to diagnose them, although med students do get taught way more still, and thats why they are a DOCTOR and a Pa is just a physician associate,
2. To even get onto a PA degree its HIGHLY competitive, you need NHS experience like myself with 6 years experience in pharmacy and 1 year experience as a student nurse, you need a science related degree to get on to the degree, they cant get onti the degree with a german degree, so like biomedical which is similar to what Med students study minus the clinical skills, and thats why Universitys ask for the NHS experience also, for the undergraduate, you need the same sciences at A level as you would if you were going to study medicine to become a doctor.
3. they are there to help take the work load of doctors by dealing with the less enhanced cases freeing up doctors who have more enhanced knowledge than PA's to deal with the more enhanced and difficult cases, they are also there to help deliver continuity of care to patients on wards as junior doctors rotate through specialities every 3-4 months.
Yes mistakes happen like in every profession including doctors and nurses where errors have lead to deaths, and yes thats horrible, but one or two rare cases in many situations a Physician associate has helped save many lives isnt justification to get rid of the role or bully the profession.
Atm there is a real crisis and the whole reason these associate professions have been instigated like NURSING ASSOCIATE which are not nurses but can do alot of what a nurse can do, and nurses are happy for the help because it seems like the majority of nurses have the PATIENT as first priority NOT EGO or Money.
And thats what this about MONEY locum doctors who are paid £100 an hour or more are loosing money because GPs and hospitals sometimea dont need a doctor as they have them on site but someone who can give a helping hand to the doctors ans are cheaper for the TAX PAYER as a locum PA gets between £45-£60 hour.
The BMA bullying this profession reminds me of 1948 when the NHS was created, and the BMA tried at every opportunity to stop the creation of it, and NOT for patient safety or helping patients but because of the millions of pounds theyd loose from a free healthcare system, they didnt care that ppl at that time werw dying from basic things like infections and colds whixh are treated for free now to everyone, they just cared about the money, now its the same situations over 50 years later DOCTORS DRIVEN BY NOTHING BUT MONEY, POWER, AND EGO
I think it’s helpful to have a civil discussion about this. I do feel sad that there are so many brilliant PAs out there trying their best, but the system just hasn’t been set up to support them and ensure patient safety. In no way do I want to ‘bully’ anyone. I’ll go through your points to help try and clarify why many of us are so worried:
1. You do agree med students get taught much more and so then once qualified, doctors have to go through many more rotations, exams and additional qualifications in order to specialise, which is why it is a problem that PAs are replacing doctors on rotas and in primary care.
2. Many of the PA courses accept non-science undergraduate degrees, eg Swansea proudly admit you can apply with a law degree. The others accept science degrees including topics like zoology, which offers little help with medicine. Even biomedical science is not comparable, you can ask the doctors who also have a biomed degree. I did the graduate entry programme which was 75% made up of science graduates; none of them breezed through medicine!
3. PAs are supposed to help with the workload of doctors, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to be what is happening on the ground and, in fact, they are often taking doctors opportunities for training and increasing workload pressures: www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-survey-finds-working-with-pas-is-increasing-doctors-workloads
4. if this was about money, doctors like me would be rubbing our hands in glee at the prospect of a two-tier system, where the rich pay privately to see a doctor and those that cannot afford see a non-doctor. There are genuine concerns that the role of PAs has been rolled out without due diligence for scope of practice, correct registration, supervision agreements and protection of junior doctor training.
PAs are a waste of taxpayer money. Patients dont want them, doctors dont want to have to work with them, the only people that are pushing them are the corrupt Tory govt and the NHS who get cheap labour which they can use as they see fit without any limitations on their scope of practice.
I just feel like if you are gonna have a civil discussion about this then there has to be the full correct information of the role and be a balanced argument instead of just crapping all over the role, missing out relevent information. And also I feel like doctors are not trying to fix things with the role they are trying to change the role entirely or get rid of the role all together.
1. Yes doctors have way more training and thats why they should always be dealing with the more enhanced cases, but physician associates do rotate through many specialities when qualified, same as doctors until they decide where theyd like to remain, although yes they are generalists, so they can decide to work in a different speciality, they are on the same rotas as doctors because they are there to support doctors and sometimes they dont need more doctors but more assistance with less enhanced diagnoses to free up their time for cases more suited to their enhanced knowledge, which is the same case with nursing associates on nurses rotas.
2. I agree yes maybe years ago they would take students from them type of degrees but if your keeping up to date, that isnt the case now, you need a science related degree and NHS experience or they wont even look at your application, and I dont think anyone breezes through medicine, but a biomedical degree, nurses degree, or pharmacy degree would give you an advantage, and as for the undergraduate integrated masters PA programme you cant say that isnt relevent as Id be studying medicine for two years along side med students training to be doctors before joining the postgraduates in the last two years.
and as for the 2 year post graduate degree, as you know most of what you learn in medicine is medical research which doesnt benefit any doctor clinically unless your thinking of going into research, the whole reason the goverment has announced this year that medicine will now be 4 years not 5 years for undergraduate as they are reducing the amount of unrelevent information you learn. What Physician associates get taught is 2 years of clinical knowledge and yes they are still dont have the knowlege a doctor has but they advanced healthcare professionals (band 7) with the same knowledge as a advanced clinical practitioner nurse or pharmacist who dont replace doctors either but take the pressure of doctors.
3. I agree there are issues with how the role was rolled out and what they can and cant do and doctors taking responsibility for the PA's actions and thats why regulation will be a good thing for the profession but doctors like yourself and the BMA are against that, and yes it should be the GMC who regulate them as the profession is a associate profession of the doctor profession, same as nursing associates with nurses, who are regulated like nurses with the nursinf and midwifery council.
4. The role its self has proved to be a successful role in united states for the last 70 years, where they are now called physician associates too not assistants as thats a insult to the knowledge PA's bring to the table, and they havent replaced doctors in the states? Yes there has been rare instances where GPs have used them as doctors which isnt on at all but this is why regulation is soooò important so they have a clear scope of practice.
5. They dont take learning opportunities away from doctors, atm there are only 3000 Pa's in the UK, so thats a overexageration, and Ive seen first hand as a student nurse, PA's freeing up junior doctors time for more learning opportunities because PA's can deal with most of massive workload which has been forced upon junior doctors which is by no means fair on junior doctors. What Ive seen is the BMA who pushed forward to restrict the amount of medical places and restrict the amount of places for specialities, which makes no sense but is by any means the fault of the Physician Associate profession, there is a current crisis atm and the profession to any doctor focused on patient care a saving grace
@@coreysmith1982
1. It makes no sense that PAs are on the doctors rota 'to support doctors', as they are clearly replacing a doctor on that rota, not as well as. We have evidence PAs do not free up doctors time, but in fact make the job harder.
2. I am keeping up to date with PA entry requirements, here, for example is a link to Swansea website which shows you need C at GCSE Maths & English (no mention of science) and either a 2:2 healthcare related degree, or a 2:1 in a NON-healthcare related degree (with some work experience). www.swansea.ac.uk/postgraduate/taught/medicine/physician-associate-studies-mpas/#entry-requirements=is-expanded . I don't understand about your comment about medical research I'm afraid, it is certainly not true at all that "most of what you learn in medicine is medical research." It is also false that the gov have announced medicine will now be 4 years.
3. BMA are pro-regulation, but like other allied health professionals such as physios, they have their own regulator. The GMC was set up to protect doctors from those seeking to muddy the role.
4. Whatever is happening in the USA has no bearing on here in the UK, but I understand they do have more of an assistant role over there.
5. Again, no idea where you get the information that the BMA want to restrict the amount of medical places and speciality places; this is the antitithesis of the truth. Junior doctors are telling us they are taking away learning opportunities (read some of the comments on this video) - we need to listen and we need to act.
I really am sorry that PAs are stuck in the middle of all this, when they are just trying their best, muddling their way through without agreed scope, supervision arrangements and regulation, but we need to protect patient safety; this is paramount.
1. Cant say there is evidence and then have no actual evidence to back up what your saying, but yh your most likely right to an extent because the lack of regulation (which is thankfully coming into place) prevents them from being able to independantly prescribe, but when that does come into place like a advanced clinical practitioner pharmacist, nurse, or paramedic they will be even more of valuable resource to doctors and patients alike.
2. your information is completely out of date, if you were keeping up to date you would see on the NHS workforce plan, that the goverment has announced that the undergraduate degree to medicine will be shortened from 5 to 4 years, this is the link to that information👍🏻👌www.gov.uk/government/news/expansion-of-medical-school-places-to-be-accelerated-to-next-year, they are reducing the amount of medical research and other irrelevent information in order for med students to become doctors faster something which my university has let me know about as am studying medicine for 2 years as apart of my undergraduate degree for PA👍🏻, and what you state about the postgraduate degree is just not true, they do not accept students with a law degree, or german degree or.... you cant just lie to state a point, and you say they say SOME experience, they dont say some, and it is HIGHLY competitive, so a student with more NHS experience will always be favoured over someone with none or little experience.
Also, the BMA did restrict the amount of places for med students, this is common knowledge, and this information is in the following link👍🏻www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748#:~:text=BMA%20meeting%3A%20Doctors%20vote%20to%20limit%20number%20of%20medical%20students,-BMJ%202008%3B%20337&text=Delegates%20at%20the%20annual%20BMA,on%20opening%20new%20medical%20schools.
Thankfully the goverment are now increasing the spaces to med school which am glad as the NHS needs more doctors.
You say that the role isnt beneficial to patients or the healthcare team, but thats simply faulse, quantitative and qualitative data from a reliable resource Ive attached which shows how wrong you are www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6359738/
You say that the USA has no bearing in the UK? But it shows another healthcare system proving the success of the PA role which has been around for 70 years, and no they dont do more of an assistant role, they are advanced healthcare professionals who do alot more than they do in the UK and that is the whole reason they have changed the name in the USA from Physician assistant to Physician associate, because calling them assistants is an insult to them, so please do your research before talking about something you have no idea about.
Also, of course the GMC should be regulating the profession as its associate profession of the doctor profession🤦♂️ same as the nursing associate profession which is regulated the same as nurses with the NMC.
Anyway, Ive enjoyed this discussion😂 but no matter what you or the BMA say Physician associates are here to stay and am glad to be apart of the role👌
I think one of the major flaws of this video is the point you keep raising about the PA course being a 2 year course, you fail to mention that actually ALL prospective PAs must have an undergraduate degree in a Life Sciences subject achieved before they are enrolled in a 24 months masters programme. (This is three to four years prior study and then two calendar years or three academic years of a Masters programme) - so this narrative of a PA having only two years training is just so false and misleading. The anti-PA environment in the UK is so toxic, in a time when the Health Service is absolutely buckling and on its knees… there is more than enough work for everyone. I also must add whilst there are indeed very tragic cases that have happened here with PAs involved, this is not an across the board representation of PAs or the quality of care they provide. There are also many many cases where doctors also cause patient harm with missed diagnosis but they are not given trial by the media. I wholly believe a PA should be their own entity, PAs are not out to dupe anyone about their credentials, but as a PA garners experience they can become a professional who is highly proficient and competent in a specialty area working alongside you as colleagues, PAs can also provide continuity of care which makes sense if they are not rotating every three months to opposite parts of the country. You show an inherent lack of understanding that this type of up-skill could ever be the case. I’m disappointed in this video to be honest, I’d followed you for a long time and really valued the info you’d share. This however is spiteful propaganda and hope you reflect on the points I’ve raised to add further clarification to it.
this is not a preclinical degree in medicine. A degree in botany is not useful in clinical practice. There has always been a biomedical sciences -> medicine or graduate entry medicine pathway which many undertake and get a full medical education.
Actually she did lead with saying PA is something who has a degree already. Theoretically the prerequisite is meant to be life science degree even then there is a huge variation of knowledge learnt in these degrees that are relevant to medicine. There may be enough work for everyone, but surely not enough training opportunities for doctors on many levels, especially in procedures such as endoscopies - think about the tens of thousands of foundation year doctors or even internal medicine trainees who can only dream of just the experience in performing endoscopies. Doctors making mistakes is only prove that even proper training can cause harm, imagine people with less dedicated training! If PA does as their role is intended I don't think anyone will have any extra concerns for patient safety
@@twmd Yeah well, not everyone wants to be a doctor. If they wanted to be, they would go to graduate entry. There are loads of PAs who want to be just PAs
@@Bryannaleigh Exactly, so if doctors even with their years of training do make mistakes then why scapegoat PAs as if doctors themselves don't make mistakes? Even consultants deliberately carrying out uneccessary surgeries on patients and ending up in jail but there seems to be the one repeated story of a PA missing a diagnoses twice but somehow, the supervising doctor and practice is not spoken about. Very fishy.
I agree with you how toxic the environment is for UK PAs and I'm so glad that the GMC is regulating them regardless of these doctors who bully them.
You're so condescending at 2:03. Rolling your eyes, the tone of your voice and all. So glad that the GMC will be regulating at 1:07 "these non-medics, they're not doctors" as you call them. As if PAs want to be doctors. It's ridiculous you keep spelling out the number of years doctors do vs PAs as if PAs are doctors when they're not. By the way, you should get your facts right before doing a video because Physician Associates was the original name before it became Physician Assistants and back to Physician Associates again. You say glorified title. Of course, they should have their title protected. How can you say a Master's degree studying medical modules is easy? So ridiculous. You can at least make your point by respecting "these non-medics, they're not doctors" profession. You should bring your concrete evidence to the flawed points you raised. And more examples of how PAs have caused deaths. If you have a problem with PAs being paid higher, then leave your doctor job, study the MSc course for two years and then get that pay. When you realise that their pay doesn't go any higher and that doctors are on a totally different pay body and climb up significantly higher than PAs, then may be doctors will stay in their lane, stop comparing their pay to a profession that is not even a threat to their prestigious degree and just get on with their jobs as they're putting patients at risk, wasting time bullying PAs instead of working together for patient safety while the NHS is in crisis. Utter ridiculous
Talk about hurt feelings. The never event rate with PAs was in a recent Scottish study.
The President of the FPA was found to be a medical school reject. The countless social media posts from PAs believing they went to medical school, boasting about being on par with highly skilled doctors, says otherwise.
Not sure why you have quoted me stating they are "not doctors" - this is just a statement of fact. An exam rate with continuous 100% pass rate suggests the exam is not very difficult. There are many more examples of how PAs have caused deaths, but I don't think it is helpful to list them all, many have made headlines. Doctors, or anyone who has been to medical school for any period of time, are not allowed to apply for the PA training, (unsure why this is, seems odd). As I say in the video, this is not about bullying, it is about patient safety. Read all the comments from the doctors who are confirming day to day concerns with how PAs are taking opportunities for doctors to train, replacing doctors and putting patient safety at risk.
@@DrSophieGP I didn't make a mistake quoting you. You're the one saying that they are taking doctor jobs and being condescending stating "these non medics, they're not doctors". It is important you don't leave out the part where you state that they're non-medics when they actually are. They're not doctors anyway and don't claim to be one. You're the one comparing "non doctors" training to doctors training when they're not doctors. And where did you get this information about a 100% pass rate? It better be from more than one school/source you've taken this from because I know that the PANE exam that they sit is not a 100% pass rate. And there are many examples of how doctors have caused death by far and I think it'll be helpful to list a lot more than the same story that you've mentioned. If it is about patient safety then you will stop bullying and condescending another profession by saying their exam is easy with 100% pass rate. Eager to see enough 100% pass rates to prove your point and work with the profession as part of the MDT to focus on patient safety as I am sure that patient safety is at risk when one profession is focussed on bullying another instead of working together towards an ultimate goal which is patient safety as you say. PAs aren't taking opportunities from doctors to train, the PAs in their training have also earned their right to be there as they too need training to qualify and be excellent PAs so that they're not scapegoated when they make the same kind of mistakes that doctors can also make. So just as Doctors need training, PAs need training too . The NHS is not for doctors alone. By the way, you mean some doctors "and not doctors" comments on taking training.
I think the role has got about 5 years left at most before its binned. Patients dont want them and increasingly doctors do not want to work with them or supervise them, especially the newer generation of consultants coming through now who are overwhelmingy anti-PA. You can't be a physician associate when none of the physicians want to associate with you.
At the outset, discuss the core emotion, purpose, and value of each video in earnest to hook your audience right from the start and encourage them to watch the entire video.