Vice “debates” Feminism...and has to disable their comments 🥴 | Khadija Mbowe
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- Check out INTIMINA here: intimina.se/LilyCupxKhadija
Khadija’s Socials
Instagram
/ khadija.mbowe
Twitter
/ khadijambowe
Tiktok
www.tiktok.com/@khadija.mbowe...
*MERCH*
letsflawnt.com/
/ letsflawnt
*Patreon*
/ khadijambowe
*Podcast*
theleftovermillennials.buzzsp...
Time stamps
0:00 Play
0:21 Intro
1:44 Intimina
3:08 Blame it on the edit?
9:20 Where were the citations????
10:49 is The "girls" are fighting
16:27 Naval Gazing
18:01 Debating or arguing?
19:48 Threat Inflations
22:43 Left, Right, and oh so wrong
35:22 A lesson in communication
Final thoughts
Sources & Links
How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States?
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.ed...
Canada is the first country to provide census data on transgender and non-binary people
www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily...
I was on Vice's insane feminism panel
• I was on Vice's insane...
Anti & Pro Feminists Debate Abortion, Trans Rights, and #Metoo | VICE Debates
• Anti & Pro Feminists D...
Conservatives and Progressives Debate Feminism (Extended Version)
• Conservatives and Prog...
(1977) THE COMBAHEE RIVER COLLECTIVE STATEMENT
www.blackpast.org/african-ame...
A fact-checked debate about legal weed
• A fact-checked debate ...
Elite Capture- Olúfémi O. Táíwò
Representation- Evans, Nixon, Hall
Some books…(these should all be available on audio or here via e book ua-cam.com/video/ah_2T_ok_yY/v-deo.html) FOR FREE
The will to change (men, masculinity, and love- bell hooks
The right to sex- Amina Srinivasan
Sexed Up- Julia Sereno
Entitled- Kate Mann
Not done with The Body Keeps The Score, and All About Love yet but I definitely will follow your reading list
really great vid!!!!! Yo, I really believe that androgyny is a really high State of consciousness and all of this stuff just keeps us from reaching our potential, in this lifetime for some. sending love to everyone everywhere!! #peaceistheprize
Love the video! Khadija, you gotta slow down those Patreon credits!
I watch vice news, but I completely skipped out on this video. I knew from the title, thumbnail, and disabled comments that it was probably not really a good video for me to watch.
these are such great recs!!!
The fact that the men’s panel was way more progressive than the women’s panel is so disappointing to me.
The mens panel was so good!!
@@angelinaboone103 men like sneako and fresh and fit have no bearings outside of a certain community so I doubt they’d have much to say about them
I totally agree! I had watched the men’s panel first and REALLY wasn’t ready for what awaited me with the feminism one 😂 still recovering
It's because there is a LEGION of women who desperately want a man and male approval... PICK ME if you will!! The pick me energy is strong and lethal. It may even be stronger than your typical male->female hate.
@@angelinaboone103 They also didn't have trained online figures whose entire income relies on dismissing the movement that allows them to even speak, i.e. Pearl and Sydney Watson. They were there to debate not discuss as the men were able to. Plus Vice somehow got 6 out of 10 pro-birther women in a post Roe v. Wade world...like EXCUSE ME?!
Christian Walker was there but given his recent very public beef with his father (Herschel Walker) his ignorant hyping up of conservativism hasn't been on display as much due to that and the non-systemic questions asked. As happy as I am young men got to see men discussing masculinity and their actual feelings not abusive toxic "Top G" bull, the fact the Feminism panel was so combative felt intentional. Very can't uplift men without stepping on women vibes, Vice :/
I'm sick of "debates". Social media has changed the definition to strangers yelling at each other. They've becomes as intelligent as watching people lose it on transit.
Oop 👀
Debating is a skill. It's an organized exercise between professionals. "Debates" like these aren't just a mockery of what debates are but also a mockery of the topics being discussed since they can't be given the respect they deserve
This wasn't a debate. I could tell some of these participants just did their stupid gotcha questions for their 20 seconds UA-cam reels without even listening to the answers
yup… it’s not a debate if each side doesn’t hear each other out. that being said, i think it’s unfair to have people who may not be professional debaters (idk if that’s the right term) come in for a shoot where they’re asked to speak on things they’re passionate about… it makes things so decisive. this could have been a mature conversation with valid, backed up point but… here we are :/
@@KhadijaMbowe: Your comment about privilege being invisible to those that have it was spot on. I'm curious to know what think about the invisibility of privilege to those adjacent to such privilege, who also defend those with it?
As an architect, it boggles my mind the way they are seated. They should be sitting in a circular pattern so that everyone can see eye to eye everybody. It is not about the panelist, but about the discussion.
Not only were they seated in two rows, but also the rows were in different heights. Like wtf, how are they supposed to keep a respectful conversation with this type of seating?
LOL “sorry I can’t hear you from all the way up here”
it probably creates tension. That's what sells.
“Maybe feminism isn’t about just you” I SCREAMED. I love you
It was an Ad Hominen attack, which is a Logical Fallacy. An Ad Hominem is a personal attack that has nothing to do with the argument to try and discredit the person: when you do that you are no longer debating logically (but usually emotionally). Basically it's a tactic of the fool and the weak. When someone uses an Ad Hominem attack the other person has won by default.
Now, I want to add that I'm actually a more progressive and left-leaning person. I really wanted to see great arguments coming from the pro-feminist side, but there really was none... Which saddens me.
and you SCREAMED because?
@@Jacco0 LOL.
That is not an exampe of ad hominem.
Ad hominem is not an "attack."
"When someone uses an Ad Hominem attack the other person has won by default" -- that's not how anything works.
LMAO. Your attempt to sound intelligent has failed utterly. Wanna try again?
@@zammmerjammer From the Cambridge dictionary:
ad hominem
adjective
formal
uk
/ˌædˈhɒm.ɪ.nəm/ us
/ˌædˈhɑː.mɪ.nəm/
(of a criticism, etc.) directed against a person, rather than against what that person says:
an ad hominem attack on his rival
I'm not going to be swayed by ad hominem arguments attacking me instead of supporting your own position.
More examples
She said she disagreed with ad hominem criticism of artists' work.
His attacks seem largely to be of an ad hominem nature.
The language is harsh, but none of it is personal or ad hominem.
The arguments were more ad hominem than factual.
@zammmerjammer Why I consider it an Ad Hominem is because the person the comment was directed to never claimed that feminism is about her. The comment insinuated that the receiver of said comment was egocentric, stupid or worse. It was a judgement based on the other's character, which makes it Ad Hominem. The reason why she instantly lost the argument is both in the irony (she herself is showing feelings of superiority aka narcissism) and hypocrisy (only her view on the matter is valid, so a different view is rejected, whilst claiming the other person is making it about herself).
I'm sorry if I talk more complicated than has to be sometimes, I think in these words because for me it is easier. I do realise it may come off as pretentious, but that's not my intention or how I feel. All I did was make observations and express my disappointment. I was rooting for her, but this just made her look bad to me. And sure, if you feel emotionally invested a remark that "put her in her place" may feel good, but that's just one's anger and resentment talking. It's like that some guy likes to see someone get punched in the face. It's the verbal equivalent. It's aggression and basically a violent act.
The main problem was that Vice picked a bunch of literal "professional conservative" influencers and then just...normal "liberal" women.
Yeah, I liked how most of the people on the masculinity were just average joes. There were like 2 influencers and they were the combative ones. I think throwing in the white, female equivalent of Andrew Tate was a bad move.
Bingo. For these types of videos, I rarely see them bring on people on the left who are actually well versed in debate and analyzing political talking points. And then the conservatives they bring on literally have it as their whole job.
I wish they would be frank about who is a conservative Influencer at the very least. So the panel can be aware.
That's a pattern
It's not even that they picked conservative influencers, but two of the most extreme that debate the most intelligent leftist daily. So these regular liberal women were basically thrown to the wolves. There was no scenario where this ended in a productive conversation.
All i'm gonna say is that it's crazy how they selected the panel. Not only was it not really true to statistics, but we also had political commentators debating normal ass people. Kinda a sham
Sociology graduate here, and the bias behind media panels has been used as a political tactic since the 80s at least. Knowing the background behind Vice (one creator became an alt-right leader and the one still in place is a libertarian), I am not surprised to see this.
It's almost as if they want to platform genocial rheto *COUGH COUGH* certain stances over others....
Nah we love vice they're totally known for being neutral in such safe times :/
edit: I want to clarify my point. The "trans people should be banned in sports" shit is to demonise trans people. How? Well there are a couple of examples:
- ALL of the things about how trans people are taking away womens chances of success have been debunked thousands of times, one being so many people that make these claims have no clue that when trans people take hormones, it brings down almost EVERYTHING to a cis womens levels. The reason why this is still going on:
- Trans people are obviously facing a genocide (Life saving care is being banned, forcing people to detransition and/or commit suicide, hundreds upon hundreds of billed being passed against us, etc) and the right has been spweing completely made up things to demonise us. These are how we are "preying" on women in bathrooms (WITH ABSOLYTELY NO PROOF THAT THIS IS HAPPENING, and if it did, we would be hearing about it for years), and how trans people in sports is harming women. (they also like to say that its men versing women, obviously misgendering which leads to dehumanisation to further what I'm going to mention)
- The logical path to which someone would take with the "trans people should be banned from sports" debate is that they are evil and silencing women, how we are dominating sports because we are so "muscular and scary" (even though this is literally not happening, one case being Lia Thomas although it wasn't even a global title, since no trans person has owned one, making the debate bad faith). The next step is violence.
"How can we let this happen?" "We must stop this!" "Trans people are evil!! They DESERVED TO GET PUNISHED!!!" This is further pushed by fascist stochastic terrorists into the greater message that they want to put forward, is that we're all "monsters" who should be stamped out by force. You know what that means? Genocide. Extermination.
All the "trans sports debate" does is further the narrative that we are monsters. That is why I mentioned what i said. If anyone would like some sources id be happy to send them if you ask
Yes they even brought a woman, Pearl, who believs that women should not be allpwed to vote. She even has a plan to remove their right to vote. The video here on youtue. I guess that debating humans rights is productive.
@@Al-ho1oo Wow, how can a woman hate herself so much she wants to put herself down like this? I mean, I understand being a masochist, but please keep it in the bedroom and dont force other people to be one aswell. Someone needs to go up to that woman and tell her to stfu because if she doesnt want women to have a voice, she doesnt need to say her opinion either.
That is not true. Vice only invites people who are invested in the topics and are active on social media. Pearl and Sydney are normal compared to the feminists, as they only speak their minds on UA-cam. Please research their names before you make such assumptions. Besides, why are your standards so low for average people? Here are the backgrounds of the feminists that VICE invited:
Omaris Zamora:
Omaris Z. Zamora, Ph.D., Assistant Professor , LCS and Africana Studies
Omaris Z. Zamora is a transnational Black Dominican Studies scholar and spoken-word poet. Her research interests include: theorizing AfroLatinidad in the context of race, gender, sexuality through Afro-diasporic approaches.
Jordan Willow Evans:
Jordan Willow Evans is a policy analyst, advocate, and writer living in Goffstown, New Hampshire. Jordan is the treasurer of MassEquality and sits on the board of the Libertarian Policy Foundation. She has appeared on ABC News, BNT 1, Sky News, RT, NBC Boston, and numerous other media networks to discuss identity and equality from a libertarian perspective. In addition, her articles exploring trans issues and the Republican Party have appeared in the Telegram & Gazette, CommonWealth Magazine, Houston Chronicle, Advocate, and Kansas City Star.
Mindie Lind:
In an interview she said: “I studied Philosophy and Psychology in college, where I learned about my true love for marijuana, music and all things cripp culture. I got to teach a disabilities studies course at the University of Washington when I moved to Seattle. I learned that academia wasn't for me, it lacked a connection with how I believe culture really moves today, so I got a band and a music job.”
Yelda Ali:
Yeldā Ali, also known as Y3LDA, is an Afghan New York based artist and activist.
Eli Elrick:
Eli Erlick (born July 10, 1995) is an American activist, writer, academic, trans woman and founder of the organization Trans Student Educational Resources.
I’m from Mexico, and we have a serious problem of violence against women that is increasing to the point where we fear not coming back everytime we go out and do our normal life. “Machismo” and a deeply rooted patriarcal mentality makes it impossible for women to access basic human rights. Watching women bashing each other makes me deeply sad, some ignore that sometimes things are not the same for everyone, that’s why we should’nt be enemies.
Edit: I wanna add that for some of us being a feminist is not even a choice, is a condition for survival
I'm from Mexico too and I totally agree, seeing how the Vice's video was made to polarize and make women fight each other while the reality is so gruesome is just disheartening.
Pearl said shes talking about "the West". Of course women around the world dont have rights like they do in America, discussion was about feminism in America
@@giovincomaz2175 Mexico is in the west and also in north america
The word doesn’t have much meaning in the US because there are so many factions. You can’t be sure what they are claiming to be. A communist, A woke idiot, A second wave feminist, Etc
@@carlacruz893 "The west" means first world countries where feminism is stong and women have equal rights.
As a woman living in the middle-east + identifying as an Arab Feminist, I am struggling with issues that are very different than the issues facing feminists and feminism in your part of the world; I just want to say thank you... You have made me feel seen and I love you and your work.
What are your thoughts on the feminist movement in the Arab world(from your experience)?
🫂❤
another arab feminist here! and yeah it’s crazy how different our experience of womanhood is from theirs
@@trippy9320 true, these women are selfish proclaiming that we don't need feminism anymore when there is still violence against women and everyvone who is different around the world
@@lalitthapa101 It depends on the country. There are more than 20 countries in the Arabic-speaking world. So being a feminist in Tunisia for example is totally different than being a feminist in let's say, Saudi Arabia. But in general, it's hard for feminists in all these countries. Feminists are usually accused of trying to destroy the religion of the region so they're getting a lot of hate from even a lot of women.
Women in Afghanistan, and multiple developing countries still face barriers. In South Africa we had a large increase in Gender Based Violence, with multiple women being killed by their partners, you could not watch the news without hearing about how another woman was killed by her partner. The president even had to address this, so I remain a feminist for the women that face violence just for existing.
For sure! I think even in countries where gender equality is "ideal", it's not something that is equally spread across the entire country. So anyone who is "anti-feminist" because they think we've somehow destroyed all gender gaps is lying to themselves, big time.
can’t understand anyone who would disagree or worse: choose to remain blind to these problems. that willful ignorance can be dangerous when it’s rich white folks who don’t acknowledge their privilege, because that money and that mentality translates into political power > social influence > even more downplaying of these adversities and aggressions.
So they country is xenophobic and misogynistic ??? Fitting
Eish uyazi nawe amajita aren't willing to have tough conversations about their own masculinity. It's not even a question of economic struggle its the fact that abafowethu have rigidity in their thinking and hatred for themselves and their outlet are their partners.
@@God_is_an_Atheist666 I dunno man I mean South Africa is one of the most unequal societies in the world. Serious social reforms are needed in the rural and suburbs. Then again you need to remember all of this is largely predicated on socioeconomic factors
This was so frustrating, because it just contributes to the misogynistic idea that women are in competition with one another, not to mention the idea that emotions make you less credible and therefore not worth listening to.
@@Tusisvrivhing they did it on purpose. Iam interested who actually was on board in Vice to decide on this setup. I wouldn't be surprised if it was or orchestrated by rightists
@@kattodoggo3868 nothing about Vice has anything to do with the right,get out of your bubble and use your brain
SOOOO TRUTHHHH
Totally agree. I was arguing with a guy today bc he was saying that women compete each other. But sometimes I don't know what to say even if I know people are wrong about what they say. I agree that saying "women compete each other" is misogynistic but I don't understand the reason why this is misogynistic. Isn't this true? I mean aren't women competing each other? I am not trying to offend anyone just trying to understand.
ua-cam.com/video/9G1bn-XS5eM/v-deo.html Woman in the past
"we don't have to be like men to feel like people in this world"
I wish I'd absorbed this attitude earlier. When I was growing up in a religious environment I often got told that being female didn't mean being weak, but it came with so many conditions that it may as well have meant that. It was still dehumanizing to be told to be feminine when what it entailed was a second-class status. I was being told to be satisfied with that. I'm much happier now knowing I don't have to be my parent's version of female but I don't have to aspire to doing what men do either.
I relate to your experience a lot. Growing up religious I was always told that being feminine was great but then being ascribed a bunch of "womanly" attributes and goals I did not identify with at all. I thought I was a bad woman and that being a woman was weakness anyway. For me as a Christian, learning what the Bible actually days about women was far more empowering than anything I was told growing up, and what I was told did not at all encompass what it means to be a women. I still haven't accepted my womanhood completely, but I'm getting there. I understand now that I don't have to make myself masculine to be powerful :)
Unfortunately I've noticed this attitude a lot on the left too- traditionally "feminine" things are sneered at while women are expected to take on traditionally masculine roles as their only route to being a "strong woman". Part of the reason why I can't identify myself as a feminist- the modern movement almost feels uncomfortably anti-woman
@@inedanap6253 can you elaborate please
@@inedanap6253 “women are expected to take on traditional masculine roles” are you speaking on “girl boss”/ liberal feminism. Or true intersectional feminism. If you have only heard of feminist on buzz feed or UA-cam, I could understand why you disagree: but I don’t agree that feminist devalues feminity at all. I am a feminist who loves all things pink, sparkles, fur, all things girly-ness. And I have never felt this to be at odds with modern feminist. In fact, feminism is the reason I feel comfortable dressing femine! 💓 I used to get teased for being “like a girl” or too girly but intersectional feminism educated me, and made me realize that we devalue femine things because of patriarchy. By removing patriatry, we can stop putting men as the “default” and accept both feministy AND masculinity in a healthy way WITHOUT a power structure where one gets propped up and energy other is devalued. I think you are confusing capitalistic/ American liberal feminism (which is new, and centering the US only) with intersectional feminist (which has been doing on for decades, discussed around the world, and is a well established corner in academia) the latter which has never been slightly anti woman
@@julieperez7505 I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you at all. I'm not talking about surface level "yay, because of feminism I can like wearing pink!!" stuff, although if that's a real positive impact for you I'm glad! I'm talking about more serious shit. For instance, the fact that I decided to get married and have children when I was 21, and not out of my undergraduate career yet. I was looked down upon pretty hard by the other women in my STEM field, and mostly by the ones who had bought into modern feminist ideology about how marriage and children are patriarchal weights meant to keep women down. After all, I'm not REALLY capable of liking these things, it's gotta be some internalized misogyny, right? Or the fact that I don't use birth control because I think the free sex era it ushered in has made sex a dehumanizing act of power in which other people are viewed as sexual objects for our pleasure. I have seen so, so many people who were used and thrown away because their partners simply weren't worried about the child-related consequences of sexual use. In my experience this has been especially bad for women. Or the fact that I don't think porn is "sexually liberating", it has much the same effect AND has encouraged sex trafficking. Do you have any idea how many times I have been mocked and ostracized by feminists for stating my concerns for how these "liberating" changes have harmed women?
The fact of the matter is, you're drawing a very funny line which I don't see to exist. "Intersectional feminism" IS the radical modern feminism which devalues the individual person and places them in a Marxist hierarchical structure in which the people at the top of the oppression chain are the only one deserve to have their voices heard, and the people they deem too "privileged" have their hurts and experiences mocked and dehumanized. How have you never been in one of these situations? How have you never encountered modern feminists mocking a man for talking about his scarring sexual experiences? How have you never seen feminists mocking a women who wanted to be a wife? Have you never SEEN a post 2017 blockbuster? The women characters ALWAYS have to show up and humiliate the men in every way. Because after all, if women are an oppressed group the correct solution isn't to try to treat everyone with dignity, it's to show the men their place by kicking them down a peg! Maybe you haven't been on a college campus as recently as I have, but academic intersectional feminism is exactly the feminism that we are steeped in, and all it does is encourage hatred and dehumanization- both of people who are more "privileged" than you, and of other women who like traditionally female oriented roles and want their femininity to be expressed deeply in those roles rather than in surface level shows of "I like pink and dresses". You can talk about some ideal "pure" feminism if you'd like, but I have never ever seen such a thing in the real world. I cannot identify with a movement which claims to fight for acceptance for all, when that "all" really just means the people who a) Tow mainline feminist ideology in every way and b) Are the right gender and skin color to be worth treating as humans of equal dignity
Although I really do appreciate your optimism and willingness to have a conversation like this. But from looking at our modern culture, I just don't think the modern feminist movement is going to be the movement that ushers in genuine equality.
The biggest problem "The Left" have is their approach. They don't meet people where they are, as you mentioned. I used to be an activist in Appalachia and could not get leaders/colleagues to understand that the approach towards impoverished folks in this area cannot come across as elitism. They wont hear you over their personal daily struggle of hand to mouth life. You have to approach them with compassion, and compassion is often the first thing out the window with these sorts of discussions.
It's even worse when they then after talking down on the improvised folk like they're on mission trip they then go into the well you're just dumb hillbillies that's why you're fighting us. No we're fighting you because you just said just eat healthier when the only grocery like store is dollar general. It's a very close to topic as someone who grew up in Appalachia as they couldn't grasp things like a parent working 60+ hours a week still could be struggling to put food on the table even with a garden which had things canned.
I've had this same discussion in Leftist circles. You have to meet people where they are and listen first. Just because you've read theory doesn't mean you know how to put it into practice.
yah i fully agree im a hardcore liberal and a bhuddist but how our society works makes it very hard to practice the qualities i wish too
i do have a concern that “meeting” them involves debating things like trans and women’s rights as debate topics instead of rights people deserve
@Voidseer Sometimes, you have to help them get to the root of what the real issues are. Sometimes, it's not trans people at all that are their problem. Showing them how they're just like them, just trying to live their lives in peace plants the seeds for eventual acceptance, or at least tolerance. You can't move a mountain in a day.
It pisses me off how those women take a look at where THEY are in America of all places and decide feminism has taken them far enough and can die. There are still countries where we are suffering daily because of what we WEAR. How hard is it to ask for simple empathy?
but the topic was about feminism in the U.S
They are talking about feminism in USA. They can’t talk about other countries because they don’t live there. Hence their feminism view will only extend to a specific area. Or countries similar to USA
@@marsmaya Ya with Roe v wade overturned I don't think America is anywhere near the point where we can say ahh yes they have reached equality.
Aren't they all American women?
@@Ummmmmmmm841I wonder why you associate access to abortion with equality? Women don’t need to abort their children to be equal to men. Both men and women need to stand up for the consequences of their choices, especially when it involves a new life.
I’m an afghan woman. By saying that i think it’s self explanatory how i feel on this new trend that bashes women’s rights. The gender apartheid in Afghanistan is disgusting bad stems from patriarchy upheld and condoned in fundamental Islam. (Don’t come for me bc I’ll snap right back) most Muslims are normal ppl due to their own belief system and morals OUTSIDE of religion. This video isn’t necessarily about that tho so I’ll be quiet. This hate for women is old and ancient and won’t be going away anytime soon. We must protect ourselves and our allies, AFAB/trans/nb and minorities
Misogyny has no gender and so much goes back into feminism and anti racism... This is why I sort of just ignore an entire person who would deny that there are issues. Those people are quite literally dangerous to be around and they don't protect us. Like everyone says those are people who don't need to be hear out!
It's obvious but just in case you needed to hear it today: we see you, we are proud of you and we stand with you.
@@suicideshy451 misogyny is hatred of women.
@@wildeonsight I think they are saying that anyone can hate women
@@Cloudy-xx4gi okay, that's true, women can uphold patriarchy
I'm South African and for as long as things remain the way they are for us women, I cannot ever say I'm anti-feminist.
We’ll things are different outside the us. Here women and men are virtually equal
@@deer5224 Lol
I agree with the ideals of feminism I refuse to call myself one because of how many terfs hijacked the movement and are the faces of it. I also don't like the focus on white middle class feminism, the toxic positivity, or the people who use their gender to be eternal victims with everything being their genders fault. I just think the current movement is horrible
@@utrix_1121 what’s funny
@@deer5224 men and women aren’t virtually equal in us society there are still societal biases that work against women, and occasionally men, and the most obvious governmental barrier is the debate whether women should be able to choose their own healthcare (not only abortion but specifically birth control and such) there is a HUGE group of republicans pushing a Christian nationalist movement that is inherently oppressive to women. When there are people in our highest offices of government that see women in such a way it reflects the attitude of a larger group of Americans.
I was shocked when the refused to answer the question of what barriers women have to deal with. Just flat out refused. How could you not be able to answer that? Even if you know the counter arguments.
I'm sat here like, you live in AMERICA! You have some very obvious ones that I, a British person, know of! Is it really that hard to say 'in many states I cannot get a hysterectomy without my husband's permission'?
@@katharineeavan9705 I’m not even feminist and it was appalling to see people not even be able to defend their own position.
@@katharineeavan9705 LOL no, it works both way for husband they also have permission from their partners if they want to do something like vasectomy
Because there aren’t any serious barriers
@@katharineeavan9705 in the US you don’t need permission from your husband to get a hysterectomy in any state at all. Decades ago maybe but that isn’t a law in any state
I'm an Iranian girl and citizen; thus Feminism is not a reality for me yet. Watching these kinds of debates about these subjects makes me uneasy about how the issues and limitations currently in place for women in my country will work out if THIS is the current state of discussions in a country like the US, where people are supposedly more open to hearing of change and equality.
i'm honestly more hopeful for iran than the us, i feel like we have a higher percentage of people absolutely fed up with the government than the us
it is tho ? women & men are fighting over there for woman's rights
America/American don't like feminism, they just like to point at countries they don't like and scream feminism. If they actually gave a fuck, why not call out Saudi Arabia, which is worse for women rights/feminism
feminism is the iranian people fighting for the freedom of women right now, it isn’t an end goal. It’s a constant struggle!
Most of the conservative women in the US are still extremely liberal by Iranian standards. When they speak against the feminism movement, they speak if the one in America, not the larger world
The men's panel was about masculinity, an identity/concept. The women's panel was about a movement, feminism. You'd have the same type of unbalanced dynamic if you brought a group of Black folks together to debate BLM vs. white people to discuss whiteness. Movements are high stakes and people involved in them will have strong beliefs and a history of having to defend them without ceding ground. When you're talking about identity, it's already understood that people's opinions will differ.
This is a stupid comparison
@@keiranmorrisart I'm just looking at the thumbs up number. Nah, I'm good.
In the future you may want to include more substance to your critiques. Otherwise you just look kind of spiteful and petty.
@@ojiugo you judge base on a thumbs up number? LOL stop it
@@keiranmorrisart Compared to one person who can't articulate their point other than saying "that's stupid"? Definitely.
You got all your accounts to give you a thumbs up? How cute.
@@ojiugo actually your comparison is fair. your dynamic analysis is the silly bit you pulled out of your behind
It felt more like a reality tv reunion than a discussion about feminism
I'm a Black woman who grew up in a lower-middle-class immigrant household, and while I understand intersectionality, I feel as though the way it was presented in this video was very annoying and unproductive. I genuinely wanted to hear the ways the feminists felt that we as women don't have the same rights as men (in America). But their statements kept highlighting their disadvantages as someone who is black, disabled, grew up poor etc. Which, while they are valid, become an entirely new conversation if those identities are the main talking point. The disadvantages I've faced have largely been due to my socioeconomic background rather than my sex/gender. I watched the whole Vice clip and I hardly heard anything describing the purely men/women inequity.
Exactly.
💯👏👏👏
Is there any pure inequity though? From my understanding there is no such thing
@@crazydragy4233 There is pure inequity but women are too scared to talk about it
@@crazydragy4233 pay gap, misogyny, how a majority of sa victims are female while a majority of sa perpatrators are male, MMIW, how typical masculine emotions are seen as acceptable (like anger and disintrest) while any emotion shown by a feminine person is seen as irrational, gender roles (which hurt everyone including men), how typical "feminine" jobs like teacher or child caretaker are undervalued and underpaid, theres a lot that was probably cut out of the video so it could fit the narrative the channel was trying to tell
they just sounded like a twitter argument come to life
I feel like that was the point
But honestly with people like the pearly things lady the purple dress I don’t know how you can keep calm
It's insane to me that people sit and debate rights and lives of human beings as a whole. 😭
That's the part I can't handle. When I hear ppl debate human rights like it's some abstract and hypothetical thing when there are actual humans at the receiving end. That's why I can't play "agree to disagree" and I'm immediately repulsed by ppl who think they're being "open minded" by playing that BS. I can't be friends or friendly with anyone who thinks my existence is so inconsequential they can play political fast and loose with it. It's the disregard for me!
Heeeyyi 👏🏽 Blows my mind.
Exactly
Sydney Watson and Pearl whoever, are both populist in their political leaning. It's so dangerous.
@@joylastname3035 that is not even the worst, it is people saying u should respect them even if they are against u having human rights.
This whole "debate" really had me screaming at the screen, "Your experience is not universal! So stop acting like it is!"
And the fact that they didn't link the sources cited had me heated, too. I want to read these studies! I want to see if there are reputable nonpartisan sources! I want to see the methodology! I want to LEARN.
Exactly! I wanted to learn about the barriers women face, the oppresion women face, the systemic and institutionalised sexism and such. But none were discussed! I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS! Please inform me people, I want to LEARN, but can't seem to find answers on my own!
FR so many of them were extremely close minded and demeaning which I found frustrating. Half of these people have never been taught civil discourse
@@Jacco0 Hi, the material you are looking for is easily reperible like everywhere (on internet, on books, on studies, on reports), so I'm kinda baffled you can't actually find them. Anyway, you can look for "Everyday sexism", "Delusions of Gender", "Invisible Women", or the periodic UN reports, the EU's equivalent files, or just History/Political/Law/Sociology/Philosophy books, or just ask women of you life. They may not call it for their proper name, but I'm sure they could tell you a thing or two about gender discrimination.
Just a hint to invite you deepening the matter: if you wrote that message by smartphone, you did it on a screen that fits more or less perfectly your hand; not a woman's (thus smartphones' screens ain't growing anymore). If you did it by pc, you did it with a MnK that fits your hands; not a woman's. If you asked Google Assistant, you had less problems being understood than a woman would (kinda crazy, even voice recognition is biased. Read the books I suggested). And the chair you are sitting on isn't shaped after a woman's body. If you wrote it on a car seat, haven't you noticed women hardly hit the headrest with their... Heads? This is not random (sometimes, not even intentional). This is systemic sexism. A thing that, luckly, You and me will never face. So why don't help our female friends?
YES! Me too. Well said I was so frustrated. Couldn’t even get through the whole debate. I just came straight here to watch Khadija commentary
@@dymrjones8746 There is no way you weren’t high while writing that.
I couldn't bring myself to watch this because I knew it would spike my blood pressure and I'm trying this new thing where I void things that are innately stressful and triggering because I'm a sickly human being lmao. Glad to know I made the right decision. Thank you for watching this so people like me don't have to. I can't afford a tachycardia episode lmao
Why do things trigger you so much? It's interesting how as humans we all have our own unique experiences and feelings
Grow a pair
Get off the internet if you’d any watch a shitty debate video
@@webstime1ngl i plan on asking my ptsd veteran neighbor that same question next year July 4th because its so dumb but so spectacular entertainment wise. Like miss gurl you ate with that we stan a cuntie
@webstime1 Not speaking for this person, obviously, but it could possibly be an argument that they feel strongly about, perhaps watching people agree and disagree strongly with what this person believes is something that could trigger them? Again, not sure, but it is interesting to think about 🤷♀️
Something I've learned is that tv debates are often about who can portray themselves the best, not who is the most fair or well-informed or qualified to speak. And casting for tv debates is often based on what would be controversial or entertaining, not what would help people understand an issue.
I've stopped watching content like that because for me it's become unnecessary stress and I learn from other sources, but I commend everyone who goes on these formats and really tries their best to advocate for themselves or for us.
Well said
To quote game of thrones "you're very eloquent... doesn't mean you're right."
I think about that every so often. The person who wins a debate is the most eloquent, not who's actually right.
Yes very hard lesson for me to learn. Similar to how social media algorithms launch the most extreme controversial opinions to the forefront, I have to step back and ask myself “have I even met anyone in real life who thinks or acts this way”. It skews your perception into thinking there aren’t reasonable people willing to have a discussion that’s difficult and admit they might be wrong, when in fact there are more than people realize it’s just that’s not “entertaining” so it’s not publicized.
I haven't watched the panel but I am aware of Pearl so I don't know how productive the conversation could be.
@@Tiepobadaae I think about that too. I've come away from many an online debate seemingly on top not because I presented the most persuasive argument, but because I was the only one who kept a lid on my feelings of anger and hostility towards the other participants.
bell hooks: feminism is for everyone
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie: we should all be feminist.
Vice: okay . . . but what if we had women fight about feminism and call it debating?
It was done deliberately really, because it seems none of those women were informed of their own beliefs (except the white woman with the platinum blonde haircut) bell hooks (R.I.P) and Chimamanda would have destroyed those conservative women. This is a video to portray the narrative that women can't get along or they debate through emotion and not facts.
Exactly and how I understand that it's everyone is a free agent able to decide for oneself as long it doesn't hurt others.
- My body, my choice. - Yes.
- Abortion is murder. - Alright don't do it, still your choice.
- Men and women are the same. - Okay.
- Men and women are essentially different and complementary. - Could be.
Why it has to be a fight (or a debate)?! I don't get it, let me be me because I let you be you. Some women want to be 304 and some want to be conservative so!!??
Transgender issue, is for me another issue in itself. Transpeople deserve to be heard and respected as everyone else for sure. I like listening and learning from my friends that I met through dance classes. I think they deserve to be left alone or have their own safe spaces.
Like sometimes as a black women we'd like to gather among us to talk specifically about our own issues and support each other as woman + black #bwfollowtrain 😜
Bell hooks is my hero.
women and two men
@@alpacacomentadora413 Are you referring to the non-binary folks on the panel comrade 👀
That episode was insane - I was embarrassed 🤦🏾♀️ then I asked myself, why did we get THAT question and not something like ‘what does femininity mean to you?’ SMH
Ugh, yeah, I get so irritated when people argue and they are only disagreeing because they have different definitions for the same word. I once had a "socratic seminar" in school about whether or not slavery was still a problem today, and the main issue was that most people were defining slavery as literally people in chains being forced to work and physically abused, when there is a more "modern" version of it in terms of human trafficking and free prison labor.
What a Mess. Can’t believe they gave a platform to some of those women! They did not pick the participants fairly at all. Disgusted to hear women speak about other women like they did. Made me sick. Shame on Vice! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this.
I thought the same thing! I legit think that Vice intentionally chose some of these women as a way to pit them against each other and uphold the old trope that women can't get along with each other. It's vile.
Yea! People who think we should discuss feminism are totally bigots and should not have a voice.
All that Pearl chick ever does is sh1t on other women
@@angelinaboone103 that’s because all of them knew what they were talking about. But this new video they chose normal leftist not influencers nor politicians and right influencers who know about the politics.
That's just reality. Deal with it. Unfortunately liberal/leftie women today are lack of clue and common sense whatsoever. Even 10 years old conservative girl would tear apart in conversation those disconnected from reality entitled narcissistic liberal type. Don't forget vice is lefties to the core so they come out with the best they ware able to find.
This is a problem I find with a lot of “Both Sides” style debates that I find on UA-cam, another in particular is the Jubilee discussions that were in a similar style to this. It’s a situation where they (intentionally I feel) don’t hire people who are willing to truly be civil and respectful to people who they disagree with in these interviews, they hire people who come at the discussion just to fight, or insert their opinion in a condescending way, and there starts to become a point where I wonder if these channels are for journalism or just cheap entertainment. A colosseum-style showdown between the ‘triggered leftist’ and the ‘bigoted conservative’, and its honestly tiring at this point.
A civil discussion won't give as many views as a heated argument
“colosseum-style showdown” yup that's the money-making formula
all of these "Conservative x vs Liberal/Progressive/Liberal x" videos are centrist garbage. and in keeping up with being centrist garbage: usually are just helpful to the right.
@@malum9478 amen, I think that 2 of their main problems are
They try to find middle ground between 2 ideologies that are objectively opposites while claiming both are valid even if one advocates for the death of the other
They usually take the people least likely to come to an understanding instead of taking people who might be on the fence about a certain topic or discussion
I genuinely believe that most people who believe in oppressive ideologies could change their mind or at least consider the other side with a simple conversation because empathy is baked into our chromosomes and it takes a whole lot more to dismantle it than it does to make it function
@@malum9478 That's hilarious. So centrists are essentially right wing. Typical extreme left logic.
You know, one of the most bad faith things I noticed ( 0:47 ) was how Vice chose to set the participants in a way that facing each other to speak was very difficult. Speaking over your shoulder and not looking the person you’re debating in the eyes makes it much easier to dehumanize them. How difficult would it have been to seat them at a round table? Even sociology classrooms are moving away from this bad practice.
it creates tension and that's what sells.
This apparent gender war people seem to be obsessed with, is so exhausting it's just about pointing fingers rather than looking at the bigger picture. I definitely think that part of the reason this debate was so messy was because it was so poorly organised, to the extent that I'm giving the panelists the benefit of the doubt for interuppting eachother.
In my state, If i am put in jail for any reason, I will be housed with a violent male offender. Keep these men out of our single sex spaces.
When I hear people say, "well we don't have barriers, American women don't need feminism. Other countires blah blah blah."
But then, why aren't you working to help those women then?
It's because they need an excuse to stop feminism from progressing further, this is coming from an ex incel
@@airplanes_aren.t_real proud of you for escaping that dude
@@airplanes_aren.t_real cringe
@@EdgarHernandez-uu4iw alpha edgy lord is here y’all.
You guys don't have paid parental leave and affordable pre-school childcare options , because the Christian facists the GOP decided to pander to since Reagan, hates the idea that women would want to work outside the home, but shure " you don't need feminism" It is also obvious a worker's right issue , but it is inseparable from women's lib.
Remember fellas, it's not "Loss of Freedom of Speech" if you can't handle being criticized for your hate speech 😉
Oh my god this. And it's speech protected from persecution by the government. It doesn't protect Alex Jones from spreading disinformation and slandering folks and them bringing a civil suit against him for inciting harassment.
"Hate Speech"😆
Thank you, they can't tolerate the existence of people that have different identities than them, but want people to tolerate their opinions aka hate speech.
Citation needed.
@@5british5 "Constitution of the United States,” _First Amendment._
What you were talking about the power struggle between the genders can really be summarized into the lack of use of the patriarchy as a word. Sexism is a consequence of the gender norms, the patriarchy, that decides what makes a man a man and what makes a woman a woman. An exchange that flows back and forth would be the perfect definition about how we could all be happier as a society for sure!!
YES!!! I need to get back to calling it what it is, patriarchy.
The problem with intersection talk is that it's used as a shield so that people don't have to answer a specific question. They always use "It's because I am also x" to shift discussion away from the topic being talked about.
No it's not.
Facts
I think one thing we should realize is that feminism is not femininity and the fact the we’re acting like feminism is comparable to masculinity shows how the popular belief is that feminism is an exclusively female thing when in fact it’s for everyone. Even the vice video proves this in the way d only people invited to this discussion were just women when it should have just being feminist & anti-feminist.
Then why not call it a gendwr neutral term instead of something with the prefix -fem in it?
@@mo.ka.9661 that's true. Plus egalitarianism is already taken 😂
@@mo.ka.9661 I can’t really answer that as I was not alive in the awakening of the feminist movement but I can suggest it might b that way bcs it was mostly women speaking out about sexism, and sexist oppression they faced back then. I don’t think changing d name to a gender neutral term changes anything as the fact that feminism by it own definition already tells you it’s not just about equality/equity of women it’s about men as well.
I think that's why a lot of men see the fem in feminism and get all uncomfortable and feel dysphoric, even though it benefits them too.
@@mo.ka.9661 then why not call "women" "woooos" because women shouldn't have the base word "men" in it?
it's because that's just the word... it doesn't mean we still believe women are made from men's ribs.
A words meaning is 100% what we make it.
English is all make believe mouth noises and we get to decide all the meanings.
To begin with English is just a Frankenstein monster of multiple languages, and has rules that don't even make sense to native speakers. "I before E except after C... for *absolutely no reason* "
It's all make-believe Mo.
And "feminism" is a *century* old word.
Do you think people thought through the potential complexities and usage of "On fleek" or "yeet" for it to keep being accurate in usage a centuries later?
No they just invented a random word which sounded good at the time and rolled with it.
Omg it was painful to watch that ⚪ woman say "I understand that disability might cause more barriers, I'm talking about *as a woman.*" Yeah, there are *disabled women.* Disabled people can't divorce their disability from the rest of their identity.
Intersectionality is SO badly needed!
And because a disabled woman is treated differently and otherized even MORE than disabled men. For example, our systems of accommodation for disabilities are always made with disabled MEN, primarily. Medical bias, for example, always presumes the patient will be a man, so treatments are developed and tested and administered for men.
Like, goddamn, THIS ISN’T HARD!
@@phastinemoon And then even harder for disabled women of colour who are even further disbelieved and left out of medical texts & tests. There are so many layers.
@@phastinemoon Heck, it can even backlash against men themselves - it took until I was 46 before I started getting examined for ADD - something that's considered a neurodivergence only _women_ have. And it wasn't even found out by doctors or such people, I _myself_ discovered I had always had the symptoms and went to local mental care professionals to check, and they went "Oh yeah." Because as a queer cis _man,_ I "obviously wouldn't get something only women get", so nobody ever thought to check.
Thought it was wierd how she wouldn't stick to her oppression as a woman. Showed herself to be incredibly unintelligent as i experience feminists to be consistently.
@@phastinemoon i had no idea. thats vile
The way I saw it it seemed like they were just talking about feminism in America. I don’t think anyone disagrees that feminism is needed in other places
I know right! It is just so western centered, women are not even allowed at school in some countries.
Hi, ADHDer here! I can't believe I'm saying this, because I thought it could never be possible: you are the only person I've ever been able to listen to for 40 mins straight discussing another video, without pausing, speeding up the video or getting bored and wanting you to stop talking and show the video. Your pace, opinions, and thought process are so stimulating in this video, that I was able to listen to you while rearranging my make up storage box and time just freakin' flew. Now finishing the video while having breakfast. People like yourself are people I love watching panels of, or join in discussion so I can learn more and expand my view on the world more.
And yes. Journalism doesn't exist anymore.
Echoing this fellow ADHDer! Thank you for being a voice of reason and clarity in a world that glorifies ignorance and confusion.
Regarding the video: if it's not intersectional, it's not feminism. I can't wrap my head around this being a complicated concept. (Sorry for cis non-disabled white women. We're a fcking virus)
I do find it interesting that "being competitive" is not called out more by feminist movements. I find it is so deeply rooted in patriarchy and possibly one of the things that has brought us to our current state, with everyone disagreing on equal access to fundamental human rights in a world burning all around us.
No one cares that you have ahdh. Be an adult and go pay your bills
When you mentioned that "whiteness is an idea" it reminded me of the American Gods series when Anansi (Mr. Nancy) boarded a slave ship headed for the Caribbean, and the Africans in the cargo of the ship were unaware of their situation, and he said to them, "Oh, you don't realize that you're Black yet." I also remember articles written by modern African-American immigrants who say that in their country or origin, they were just Sudanese, Kenyan, Nigerian, etc., but when they came to the USA, they became black, not by choice, but by society.
Some what off topic but…I’m still mad that they got rid of Orlando Brown. He was so damn good as Anansi. 😤
african american is an ethnic group, not a racial identity just a lil fyi. (i am ethnically african american btw)
@@BR4INR0T_ That was intentional usage, meant to refer to people from Africa that immigrated to the USA, rather than were born in the USA. Is there a better term for this?
Or in the book, how Mister Ibis and Mister Jaquel (Thoth and Anubis, respectively) outright say that, before the Civil War or Jim Crow, they could “pass” as just being not-white, or “exotic”, and after the war, they were just “black”.
It’s ALWAYS been a social construct, never about something intrinsic in people.
@@indigothecat well I mean of course whiteness is a new world idea I don’t think it’s anything shocking though
ive been avoiding watching that debate bc I know that Pearly things lady is on there and watching her always inflicts deep wounds upon my psyche. I trust that the Khadija filter will get me through it in a fun and informative manner 🙏
Pearl is such a troll on the show. It's like they invited 9 adults and one child.
This is the upteenth time I’ve seen “oh that pearly lady…” I’m scared to now see who she is and what/how she thinks. *Heads to google
I can’t stand her! She bullies women and tells women she deems “low value” that they need to sleep with a guy soon, because men won’t value them enough to wait. She also says those women shouldn’t make the men wait for sex because that’s not being “submissive” 🙄
It was painful... And now I'm just mad😅
Same here. I absolutely refuse to engage with that kind of content.
Hey I just want to say thanks for articulating these complex ideas so well. I'm in STEM and I feel like I'm not exposed to the best words / arguments / framework for discussion because I'm not reading enough about sociology and related topics, so I really appreciate you taking that research and presenting your ideas - and for dropping your sources so I can go seek it out myself. It's great to learn from you and helps me to better understand my own thought process and how to articulate it. Much appreciated :)
I don't know. Maybe I'm just cynical, but when I see debates like this I just feel like everything is being produced so conservative influencers can 'react' (read make fun) or add to their 'cringe' compilations. I feel like any real change doesn't happen in these spectacles and that you were right in saying that VICE is just doing for the clicks.
Vice is a left-leaning outlet. Why would they want to make something to benefit conservatives?
I stopped trusting "debate videos" on issues like this on youtube when I found one that straight up would not let Muslim women share their views on Islam. As in there was a huge language barrier and anytime one of them tried to speak they'd cut them off, speak over them, and/or do that thing people do when arguing where they speak super quickly and with big words to avoid letting the other person speak.
which video was that? they’re definitely not trustworthy.
Wow wtf
I understand and your trust issues are valid... especially for Muslim women... being a Muslim woman i can tell that there's alot of political correctness among Muslims who disagree with the conservative Islamic believes due the fear of offending the mullahs... 😆
Although it's great that the dialogue is now opening , which is great
The big issue is that middle eastern and South Asian Muslims (especially women and LGBT folks) have to go through way more barriers and suffering that western Muslims don't... So they end up supporting and praising practices which are actually harming the marginalized masses and in the cases of debates (like you said) , silence them and invalidate their issues 😐
@@ithinkiknowme6450 Yeah it can be a whole topic in itself, so many leftist muslim people in south asia and middle east are leaving islam and think of it as an oppressive regime. Meanwhile to progressive western muslim share their views with conservative muslims of that region in believing that islam is and should be seen as a peaceful way of being. So where there is such a huge divide b/w ways of thinking that i would likely find some white nazi islamophobe being my ally as an muslim atheist living in pakistan. Meanwhile the progressive muslims inadvertantly end up defending that shit by trying to present it as 'cultural values' and would be more concerned with invalidating my identity. We literally need to have our own debates and discussions on the left to really make it clear where we stand in relation to eachother.
VICE really put on the Maury of debates with this one. 😂Having worked in media for a decade, the bottom line is, the production dropped the ball. It's the productions responsibility to properly vet a panel and to ensure that the guests are entering the space ; A) without an antagonistic agenda B) are informed enough to articulate their positions beyond *because sexism* (it blew my mind that nobody had a concrete example to the question "tell me what kind of barriers women face !!!!!!!!!) C) are able to, as you said, look beyond-themselves. And finally, it's the hosts job to keep people on topic and civil. An absolute hot mess, but a wonderful case study for 🌟how to produce a flop🌟 Thanks for the video Khadija 💕
Agreed
@@tacrewgirl the vice brand has BEEN on its Maury arc tbh 🤡
This was the exact problem with this debate... people here are complaining that Pearl and Sydney got platformed but Sydney participated in good faith, and Pearl repeatedly asked a sensible question about barriers that no one was willing to answer reasonably, instead they just called her "privileged" and "hostile". Yelda Ali was incredibly rude to most other people on the panel whenever they disagreed with her, mainly to Sydney and Pearl, but also to the lady in the green dress who she called "brainwashed" for saying she was pro-life, and also when she said "its conservative thinking to ask someone to explain things you don't understand" 🧐
@@MusicalPenguin127 I will say Pearl and Sydney do this for a reason and are very good at doing the reasonable woman calm and collected while the feminists rage. Alot of these women wouldn’t be able to properly handle this tactic which is why if they were going to have professional conservatives influencers then there should have been the same amount of liberal influencers people that are used to answering and debating these questions on the regular
@@kenetabansi5016 But Yelda Ali is a liberal influencer even though she pretended otherwise in the Vice video. She has a number of different social media profiles which she uses for activism. She lied in the Vice debate saying she wasn't a politically active feminist, although that was obvious by all the political buzzwords she used...
Referring to your comment about leaving academia because how topics are talked about with fancy words etc. I have an anecdote to share :)
One of my professors back in university told us once, not sure what class it was but quoting:
"If you read an article/text and still not understanding it on the 3rd try, you are not the stupid one. That is a bad article. Throw it away."
I never forgot this when reading/writing. Fancy words for the writer's ego does not equate to a better and more advanced argument if you cannot get your point across.
Love this!
I honestly hate this. I hate it, because from an early age, I was an avid reader. I gobbled up books, I learned "fancy" words much faster than my classmates, and I was made to feel shame for it. So I censored myself. I stopped using "fancy" words. I oversimplified my speech for so long I can't actually speak eloquently anymore. Only when my emotions run high, or in text, can I speak with my authentic voice.
"Terms adapt and get hijacked" Felt that!
It was all an excuse to see a cat fight, 😤
I'm a left-wing intersectional feminist and my definition of feminism is liberation, equality, equity, and respect for all minorities, be they sexual, gender, racial, social, bodily, etc. etc.
To quote Toni Morrison, “If you are free, you need to free somebody else. If you have some power, then your job is to empower somebody else.”
but that's your goal. that's not the goal of feminism. feminism is the intersectionality between other factors and womaness/femaleness.
just like how the BLM movement is about black people, but is unfortunately very man focused and should consider the external factors of gender, neurodivergence and sexuality. At the end of the day, the movement is still about blackness. And feminism is still about femaleness/womaness.
@@sainttheresetaylor2054 nope, feminism is not like BLM. Feminism is for everyone. Don’t bring patriarchal thinking into feminism this is not a “ I am better, so my job as a feminist is done” you have to stand up for everyone that suffers under the patriarchy. That is feminism, what you’re describing is selective feminism not feminism. Don’t let the Fem in feminism make you think it’s about fems only.
@@ewno1566 what are you talking about? the fem in feminism was not made to fool anyone - it was supposed to make it clear that feminism was made by fems for fems.
if you feel like your job as a feminist isn't done (which, for most women, it isn't), then create a new movement based on egalitarianism. join the egalitarianism movement.
it is not patriarchal to want a movement specific to one group of people. it is not only empowering but effective/prpductive. it is not women (and women adjacent people's) jobs to fight for everyone, especially when we have so much to tackle ourselves. if that is your perogative, then by all means pursue that.
with your logic, is the men's right movement also for everyone? or are women- entered associations the only ones people feel the need to hijack and kick women out of?
you are also blind to the fact that your need to co-op feminism and defocalise women is also a result of patriarchal programming that insists that women should negate themselves, their desires and frustrations for the good of all. and should never be put first.
the definition you gave in the first comment is for egalitarianism, not feminism. feminism is the advocacy for the rights of women-adjacent people ( intersectionality included)
@@ewno1566 feminism is not for everyone, who told you that?
to conclude : feminism is for women/female adjacent people. having your own movement doesn't make you better than anyone else - it's a specific group made to tackle issues of people whose voices have been silenced. it's specific to empower the oppressed people, while intersectionality provides nuance. with your logic, no other oppressed minority should have a specified movement?
@@sainttheresetaylor2054 thank you! It's okay to have concrete definitions that arent inclusive of everyone!! People are expanding the definition of feminism to the point where it means nothing but "liberation for all I guess ". If we aren't able to be specific about protecting women and Afab rights (like reproductive justice/healthcare) we're going to keep losing progress.
Listened to this one with mum while i did my skincare and did my routine on her too. It was super nice just pausing and like explaining things to her rather than just being frustrated cause "I've told you about gender and sexuality and that it's not the same a billion times already!" Or "I dont know cause I'm still confused I'm not the fucking source of shit just because I know some stuff"
It was super calm and we talked and yeah. Thank you love.
That sounds so lovely 🥰
on the "language issue" you brought up, I would love to see you talking about how the American vocabulary is being thrown without context in conversations held at other countries. For instance, I'm a Brazilian woman and our racial and gender reality is very different (despite some similarities) from the American one, but a lot of activists are throwning around terms that have nothing to do with it and/or make everything more incomprehensible for those who are not academically versed. It'd be awesome to see that being brought up by someone so responsible and comprehensible like you!
I'm Canadian, and even I'm not understanding lots of the jargon/words thrown around. I'm watching leftist videos and oftentimes, I don't understand things. I haven't studied feminism or sociology or anything like that at university, unfortunately.
Omg same here in France! People on the internet in general just use academic jargon without doing their proper research even in the US but people in other countries with completely different histories do as well. It's honestly exhausting and as Khadija pointed out they loose their meaning after a while of being used mindlessly
@@mylene_b Neither have they tbh lol it's sad
You have access to the internet. The texts are available.
When the interviewer asked who was pro-life and over half of them raised their hand I knew the panel of people they picked was skewed towards a certain way. In the u.s. majority of people actually are pro-choice, so the panel wasn’t indicative of what most people in the u.s. think, that along with vice choosing conservative influencers to be a part of that panel really shows how vice did an awful job at planning this, and I think it was done deliberately.
You can’t actually be saying that this debate was not biased towards the left when they deliberately only chose 2 conservative women to be a part of it. The abortion issue was obviously surprising considering the lefts love of baby murder, but everything else was heavily 1-sided toward the left.
I was so disappointed to see Pearl there.... made my blood pressure spike because of the obvious disdain on her face when a feminist panelist was speaking, she obviously came to fight and humiliate people and looks like the editors did the same.
@@gdawg00 LMAO Pearl's distain. Did you not see all the feminists? It's like you're living in your own fantasy world.
@@Cucker_Tarlson Honey Pearl doesn't think women should vote, so I just take that as an insult
@@gdawg00 First, don't call me honey. Seconly, the context behind Pearl saying that makes 100% sense. Context matters.
I took a huge sigh of relief hearing you describe a feminism that I align with because even though I know so many people think this way-that we should deconstruct/disrupt the systems that make us feel we need to achieve a man’s existence-but it feels like too many people at the same time see feminism as something so reductive as being “the same” as men.
Asking questions about what you don't understand can make you feel very vulnerable. I know that I personally got a hell of a lot smarter when I stopped being so concerned about how smart I was that I was scared to ask questions, but it took a lot of work to get here. I'm glad you address this aspect in the video
exactly. to ask is to learn
Smart people ask questions. Stupid people think they know everything
This is a very good point you've made. I also stopped doing all that identifying as a leftist and whatever else there is, being concerned about being morally right and always being open minded. Turns out that being on the extreme is NOT being open minded at all. The moment I relaxed, went back and thought about it, I realized that there is a lot of research still needed to be done, and that majority of the research is done in USA, a first world country, whereas mine is pretty poor and we still live in a patriarchal society. It took growing to admit that there are opinions I won't have, and decide to stay neutral and see all points of views, and whether I agree with some or not, I will decide to understand that everyone's circumstances are different. For example, even tho I may not be okay with teenagers dressing in all short clothes, I'm not going to stop them from buying and wearing what they like. it's better to focus on MYSELF than everyone else
I wish I could’ve seen the Vice comments before they got deleted
thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this!! I had similar feelings after watching that video and you even opened my eyes to some things I didn't even notice. there's so many terms that we throw out while debating online or even in person and how are we supposed to find common ground if we can't even agree on the definitions of things!! like why even ask "is feminism dead?" when none of us even agree on exactly what feminism is or should be 🤧
I couldn't get 30 seconds into the vice video. The twat in lavender telling the woman in a wheelchair that she had "no barriers" to doing whatever she wanting and asking "what's stopping you?" literally sent chills down my spine and made me nauseous 🤢
the video might have been half decent if she wasnt in there lmao, there was no reason to include tradwife tate
turns out that twat is a redpill podcaster who is really similar to andrew tate with her views. no wonder why she was acting super bitchy
@@fwoggowl7109 tradwife tate 😭😭
@@worldwidehope yeah like the masculinity debate had christian walker who i wasnt jazzed abt but at least he wasnt a shitter most of the time (though i’m upset they didn’t let a trans guy on there to refute his dogwhistle terf bullshit at the beginning)
Barriers on accounr of her sex not her disability
The two main reasons that can be found as to why the men's discussion was better were the panellists and the topics.
Notice the men's discussion topics were questions such as "what is a man?", "what is toxic masculinity?", and "how it affects them?" This open discussion freely depends on individuals and can not be directly refuted with religious or "moral" context. If they were asked about whether a trans man is a man, the panel atmosphere would be vastly different. I think only 3 men had conservative views on the topics shared but it is impossible to tell the total amount. This is especially so since Christian Walker is a conservative influencer and he had progressive views on the topics covered. But, once again, this is a patriarchal society and women will always be treated harsher, especially with topics related to themselves.
The women's panel, on the other hand, had topics such as abortion and feminism. These are already controversial topics by themselves due to conservative rhetoric. Add in the fact that at least 2 of the panellists are professional anti-feminist conservative debate influencers, and you have a mess. Conservative influencers, especially ones who deal with feminism have a divide-and-conquer mentality. They sprout a bunch of bulls***, spread misinformation, and then watch people argue or become mad. That is their job and they count that as a win.
i completly agree, vice should have done a way better job with the casting of the women and the moderator as well as the choice of the questions
Vice only invites people who are invested in the topics and are active on social media. Pearl and Sydney are normal compared to the feminists, as they only speak their minds on UA-cam. Calling Pearl and Sydney professional seems so weird to me and it looks like you don't have standards for people who call themselves feminists. Please research the names before you make such assumptions. Here are the backgrounds of the feminists that VICE invited:
Omaris Zamora:
Omaris Z. Zamora, Ph.D., Assistant Professor , LCS and Africana Studies
Omaris Z. Zamora is a transnational Black Dominican Studies scholar and spoken-word poet. Her research interests include: theorizing AfroLatinidad in the context of race, gender, sexuality through Afro-diasporic approaches.
Jordan Willow Evans:
Jordan Willow Evans is a policy analyst, advocate, and writer living in Goffstown, New Hampshire. Jordan is the treasurer of MassEquality and sits on the board of the Libertarian Policy Foundation. She has appeared on ABC News, BNT 1, Sky News, RT, NBC Boston, and numerous other media networks to discuss identity and equality from a libertarian perspective. In addition, her articles exploring trans issues and the Republican Party have appeared in the Telegram & Gazette, CommonWealth Magazine, Houston Chronicle, Advocate, and Kansas City Star.
Mindie Lind:
In an interview she said: “I studied Philosophy and Psychology in college, where I learned about my true love for marijuana, music and all things cripp culture. I got to teach a disabilities studies course at the University of Washington when I moved to Seattle. I learned that academia wasn't for me, it lacked a connection with how I believe culture really moves today, so I got a band and a music job.”
Yelda Ali:
Yeldā Ali, also known as Y3LDA, is an Afghan New York based artist and activist.
Eli Elrick:
Eli Erlick (born July 10, 1995) is an American activist, writer, academic, trans woman and founder of the organization Trans Student Educational Resources.
@@pikapi6993 I was thinking the same thing, Pearl also said in one of her videos that her entry into the red pill world was quite recent.
The whole "this is unfair" comments need to stop. Why is it Pearls or Sydney's fault that these so-called feminists don't know anything?
Oh, and in the end, Vice really is just a UA-cam channel, they wanted views. The title, the editing, the guests, everything was done in a way that guarantees attention and views.
@@authenticroots8042 exactly. Pearl worked in retail and hated it before she became a UA-camr. It is beyond embarrassing for them to find this unfair. Every other person was more qualified to speak (according to their backgrounds) but all of them made average Pearl look smart.
@@pikapi6993 A professional is someone who does something as a job and not a past time. Being an influencer is a job. While Pearly is indeed new to podcast she still has a debate approach to her method of speech. She doesn't support feminism or believe in gender gap and she denies the need for gender equality so she's anti-feminist. She is also conservative. Thus, she technically is a professional anti-feminist conservative influencer, despite the lack of experience. The background of the people you shared doesn't change anything. All of the people you listed are activist with/without phD. That means they know their stuff. However, it doesn't mean they are experienced with a panel method of debate, especially one with poor moderation. In fact, their background support the reason behind their action of trying to make their voice heard by speaking over each other in frustration. They are use to calmer, professional environments. Additionally, I dont know what part I missed but Pearly didnt say anything smart. In the video, she usually said something dumb or denied the words of a panelist when they are trying to explain to her something she asked, causing them to get frustrated.
As a woman from central American roots, the fact we are at each other's throats is just infuriating. The women where my family originates are constantly abused and murdered for shits and giggles. Looked down upon for being ambitious cuz apparently we are only walking incubators/flesh lights that should be behind a desk at most for a powerful man. This is just screams barriers for women, and we got dumb rich girls like pearl just "then just move away if it's dangerous." ...
Right it gives the same energy as
"If you are poor then start working and buy a house🤡" or
"If you are depressed just smile🤡"
🙄
Fr like its such a privileged position to have
It felt like they almost intentionally set it up this way. Others have noted that the controversy in questions varied between the men’s and women’s panel, the demographics varied (professional conservative commentators). The edits were sad and gross. Then they disable comments????
They did a huge disservice to us. Reinforced that women are too emotional, illogical, irrational to speak on these things.
Idk why but disabling comments gets me heated lol. It’s just such a coward move. There are a million things worse than disabling comments but it really gets to me.
Maybe because, despite being unimportant at the end of the day, it is still a thing that’s all negative and has literally 0 positives
Some of the feminists were also professional commentators so I don't think that argument holds up. Comments were initially allowed and they were overwhelmingly critical of the feminist side. I don't think disabling them is fair but maybe Vice didn't want one side to feel attacked.
@@pIayingwithmahwii Nah. Reading the comments is usually counter-productive and noninformative if not straight up disinformative.
@@uslph. that’s just not true. I appreciate that you’re trying to prove your point through the disinformation in your own comment calling it out, but again, it’s just not true lol
Just as you said, there were so many factors to why this debate imploded. A lot of these women know how to stand up for themselves but they don't know how to debate and it feels orchestrated to just throw regular people together to represent their whole community under a vague yet heated subject.
Idk I feel like I’m the only one that didn’t have an issue with this debate. This debate was pretty tame, than the debates I’ve seen in the past. Just saw a group of passionate women, what’s wrong with that?
@@madisoncontroversial7348 the clips I saw felt like natural responses and reactions, it's just that for a debate, there should be a lot more mandating to let both sides speak without coming off as hostile. I get that political candidate debates make it seem like this is how they're meant to go though.
@@madisoncontroversial7348 it came off as not conservative women lost. All it takes for conserves throw stupid stuff and if you don't have proper response back-up by science you will loose. It doesn't matter they lies. Femisims is under attack and you need to know all the talking points to win any debates. Putting any random women against podcasters was a low blow from Vice.z
@@madisoncontroversial7348 From a point of view of a person who has never been in the US and is not familiar with all these issues that women encounter there, I didn't learn anything. What bothers me, is that the "feminist" women didn't give any examples, they just kept claiming that it is obvious that women are discriminated and how there you white woman ask questions. It was disappointing.
@@madisoncontroversial7348 Watch the older Vice feminism debate. It was a lot more constructive and productive. This one is a dumpster fire in comparison. Idk if it's because the western world has become more polarized or if it's because they just picked bad debaters this time around.
Pressed on the notification just to see comments because I literally can not watch this yet. Like, I need to be in a specific, detached mindset to watch a bad representation of communication between women which plays into every trope and stereotype of women being catty, petty, mean and not really knowing what they stand for. I physically can not stand it when something like this is set up and then broadcasted when they damn well know just how much bad representation of "feminism vs X" harms us. And men's version being much more coherent and respectful reinforces some other ideas and stereotypes which I won't get into rn. But I think we all know what I'm getting at.
Whatever this was supposed to be failed massively and I hope the creators (including the "mediator") eventually feel and realize every bit of what that means.
Yes! This literally how I feel.
Thank you for articulating the weird amount of playing into sterotypes.
Part of me doesn't want to talk about it at all because the entire premise is bad but it exists and people are watching it and taking it as a legitimate "debate."
I feel you. By all gods, do i feel you! And also i can't shut up the paranoid conspiratorial part of my brain that tells me this wasn't really a 'failure' in a "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kind of way
Just from the clips shared, this was a huge failure partially due to the moderator. As you mentioned, the panel helped to reinforce a bunch of negative stereotypes about women.
It is possible to have a panel composed of people with very different worldviews. However, it takes a skilled and experienced moderator, the right questions, and a whole lot of prep to make it work.
The ability to tolerate being uncomfortable, to have the comfort to tolerate big feelings with difficult topics, tolerate enough to have the discussions.
I find the way you framed this very appealing and thought provoking. Tolerance is bo longer about putting up with someone else. It's placed where it belongs, putting up with one's own feelings of discomfort.
Khadija you are among the most open-minded, forward-thinking people in this website. Thank you for spreading your voice!
The men's discussion about masculinity was really good. Most of them brought up good points and were respectful to each other, and they shared their own experiences without invalidating other people's. On the other hand, the women's discussion about feminism, this one gave me so much second hand embarrassment... They were not listening to each other and they couldn't agree on anything. They were also super passive-agressive to each other, just mean and dismissive.
Ew
I don’t know that I blame the panelists so much as Vice for how they set it up.
I think it's because the men's panel were allowed to come to the agreement that masculinity is something that can be deconstructed. The feminism panel couldn't even get there.
@@manderly33 I'm not concerned with blaming anyone. I'm just saying that it was a very unproductive discussion and the panelists were not kind to each other.
@@lobaetoile8440 Some of the panelists’ livelihoods depend on disagreeing and being provocative.
I laughed, I cringed, I learned. Great video, Khadija!! "I'm just a non-binary degenerate, so what do I know" is how I'm signing off from now on THANK YOU.
How could you write cringe like this unironically?
I am a person who believes that Trans women's issues is a TOTAL DIFFERENT THING from "normal" women's issues. Like on what earth are we the same?
@mansexman I hear you. I guess it's a personal problem I have, which is being lumped in with Trans women.
@mansexman Feminist issues have historically been related to biological females. It's not as though masculine women were given the right to vote or feminine men were denied that right. It always had to do with biological sex. So this has nothing to do with trans women. If trans women want to create a group to fight against the problems they face, they can. Why do they need to hijack Feminism?
@mansexman It's true that us biological women's experiences are not all the same, but we are all women and that is what binds us together in sisterhood, being naturally born women. Transwomens experiences should be kept separate from us, because they are not biological women like we are. Of course we still treat them with respect, but our issues are definitely separate because we are not the same.
Hi there. I don't know much about this but I would say that both trans and cis women suffer violence from men due to being feminized. That is one similarity I would say. Trans women also have some similarities to woc in the sense that they are exoticized and fetishized and therefore experience sexual violence. That is a second similarity. Maybe something to think about!
I've never heard exactly how I feel about feminism and power dynamics put out in the world so well. Thank you.
As a Black transwoman I really appreciate the way you approach these topics. Thank you for NOT beating around the bush or minimizing our experience in your videos. We endorse and support this message 🙏🏾🏳️⚧️
Id hope that you're prepared to call out the white middle class transidentifying man who targeted young women of colour so that he could sexually assault them.
🤦🏾♂️
Black and trans foeva✊🏿
black man
Stay strong and proud ! Do not let negative comment get to you -
14:42 what would have been good at this part of the debate is if someone asked: 'if you, lady in the wheel chair, had an identical male twin with the same disability, fat disprivelidge/white privelidge etc etc etc what barriers would you have that he wouldn't so we can focus on tearing them down?"
Nop, the women in the wheelchair just wants sympathy ...that's it...she not a feminist...a man and women in that wheelchair faces the same problem..period
@@hazimsaud5872 A man in a wheelchair wouldn't have the problem of periods 😄 Also, maybe she does just want sympathy but I want to take her at her word because the idea that all these femenists are just tender and hormonal is hilarious but sad.
Nuance is very uncomfortable and alot of people do want to stay comfortable!! Wise words!!
I love watching debates where I completely disagree with someone view. Because when the discussion is good you really learn a lot. Sadly, the feminists in this panel had weak arguments. They had a hard time answering basic questions and articulating their thoughts. When Pearl asked her question "what's stopping you?" They had an opportunity to give an example. They couldn't do that so they went to intersectionality as a default...weak.
Yep. Very weak.
Yeah they had very poor media training. They didn’t know how to form an “attack” in the same why that Pearl did and they come off toothless, something I despise about most liberal left wing people(and I say this as a far left person) are much too nice and casual with people, they don’t possess near the amount of venom that right wingers do, and I think that needs to change immediately.
@@masterchef3019 What attack? All Pearl did was ask them what barriers women face today and it completely stumped them.
@@chrisw9534 Attack in the debate context, idiot. When we say attack in professional debate nomenclature, we mean a well formulated argument that puts the opponent on the defensive, not a literal attack.
@@masterchef3019 You said that right wingers are venomous. Clearly you weren't simply saying that Pearl formulated a coherent argument. You were making her out to be vicious and mean.
By the way, the people on the Left in this video were not "too nice". They were incredibly venomous. All they could do was insult, use irrelevant emotional blackmail, or laugh hysterically at valid points/questions brought up by the anti-Feminists.
A close friend of mine worked at Vice for around a year in various production roles (around ‘15/‘16), and as a trans person was in several pitch meetings about producing trans content. Everyone at the company seemed woefully uneducated about trans issues and kept passing on projects about trans folk that could’ve had a positive impact on the community and broadcast trans voices on a far reaching platform. There is something foul in the water at Vice. They want to be shocking and break stories, but I can’t help but feel like they aren’t thinking enough about the impacts of their reporting and the issues they’re choosing to focus on.
Edit: I will say that these issues related to the production of content and were not related to personal interactions with coworkers. Everyone on staff was super accepting, used the right pronouns, etc. and my friend really liked their coworkers! Lots of super creative, talented people working for a company that exploits their time & talents and keeps most people on as contractors instead of salaried staff so they don’t have to pay benefits or have good boundaries 👀 this def applies to Broadly and Vice btw 👀
Well...that might have been around the time when Gavin Mcguinness (founder of the proud boys and neo-nazi) was still the head of vice, since he founded it. Vice has some really great journalists and has dome some fantastic work (see: their reporting on the rail strike), but at its foundation there is some real problems baked in that it seems havent been fully rooted out. So your friends experience makes sense and is a damn shame
15, 16 were really the years when vice started on its downfall
Something is DEFINITELY foul in the water. Releasing the two within days of each other was a CLEAR strategy. People can be respectful and cordial and wonderful coworkers and still have deeply embedded unchecked biases that can come out in sneaky ways. I think this was a clear example of that. In my opinion.
They did choose a known predator to represent trans people without anyone mentioning his predatory behavior.
breaking down the context of these “debates” and discussions is so important. i think it’s taken for granted a lot that viewers don’t often question the stuff that happens outside of what they see on screen. debates like these are presented as happening in a void or something. as if VICE as a company doesn’t have its own agenda, the producers with agendas, the moderator with her agenda (agenda here meaning their motives and their constraints, like the moderator im sure was given guidelines on how to moderate in line with VICE’s agenda.) everything is a choice here:
- who they choose to be on the panel
- how they set their seats up facing towards the mod and camera, but away from one another (this does not facilitate a convo imo but shows how much this is geared towards a video)
- how they phrase the questions “is feminism dead?”
- the lack of defining terms and citing sources so that participants can even speak on the same things instead of arguing past one another
- the editing, of course
- the time constraints of tryna have and present a whole debate about feminism in a few hours that’s cut to 45 mins?? when they have the resources to make it a series that can be more nuanced
imagine if someone who actually cared to have these discussions in a productive way had the resources that went into this video.
yes!!
Something I like to keep in mind whenever I'm talking with someone whom I don't agree with, is the difference between listening to understand and listening to reply. If you're listening with the intent of replying, you're not really listening, you're looking for a hook in, a flaw, something to tear into their reasoning and assert your own over theirs.
If you're listening with the intent to understand, then you're inherantly giving whomever you're talking to the room to formulate their "thesis", you have the presence of mind to ask question, ask for clarification, and genuinely find some common ground to go off of.
This is why I generally don't like debates, because people are trying to "win". You're not winning when you shut someone down, you're just making them defensive and impervious to a difference in point of view. Wherease if you get out of a conversation having given the room to the person to express themselves without having to fight, they're sooooooooo much more likely to afford you the same curtesy, and then you can have an acutal exchange, and it's so much more rewarding than just throwing down your shit and just not give any room to any other pov.
Obviously that's not to say you shouldn't challenge what people are putting down, but I find the approach of "why do you think that is ?" So much more productive than "no you're wrong this is how it is"
I really enjoyed the talk about intersectionality in feminism! I have felt a lot of the same things, but didn’t really know how to articulate them before. Thank you for that. 🖤
"gotta hear both sides" culture needs to be stopped. Every side is not equal. Some sides are dumb.
Thats a wild thing to say… Maybe some reflection on what that way of thinking leads to is necessary.
@@siutboy6965 Not really. Some arguments have been resolved, and the only people who have an interest in pretending they haven’t, tend to be either bigots or the people who say what bigots want to hear.
I’m not required to tolerate fascists, for example, just to show how tolerant I am.
@@manderly33Very well said. The other side has already been proven to be biased in some negative way so why would we have to consider their stance?
@Barera Warsame Really, so hating someone because of their sex, race, religion, social class is an expression of an "opinion" and should be tolerated? That the "there is good on both sides" argument is not always correct.
@@manderly33 That's a common mistake the left makes... They believe their reality is everyone's reality and truth, yet there's no middle ground or universal truth that was found. Trying to silence people based on your truth and reality is censoring and outrageous.
It was sooo hard to watch. The moderator didn’t do a good job at all. I usually love vice panels but it requires a good moderator. Or else the arguments devolve. It’s so upsetting because there could have been really good critique and discussion but that didn’t happen
SUCH a good video. Just such good clear points all the way through, and so enjoyable to watch too. Impeccable commentary
Feminism is just about womans rights. There can be movements for other rights, but that dosn't make those feminist.
Absolutely agree about the lack of accessibility on the left. What frustrates me most is that when accessibility is brought up, it's quickly dismissed because "it's not my responsibility to teach you", when in reality I think the problem is a lack of creativity in parsing the theory into practical language that most people can relate to.
For what it's worth I find your videos to be very accessible, as someone who knows absolutely nothing about "theory" and is immediately turned off when it comes up in leftist discourse.
Well, it’s not entirely fair to chalk that up to a lack of creativity or desire to educate.
Most people on the left are already under attack all the time. And who wants to make themselves vulnerable by opening up enough to educate their attacker? It takes a very specific type of person to do that, and it’s an extremely tall order for many.
You might be interested in the SBG Book Club by @Jouelzy. Accessibility is one of the directly stated goals.
You are absolutely correct on your points about The Trans Question. Of course people who are qualified to speak on trans issues should be present, and I shudder to think of The Trans Question being brought up at a debate without a trans person there to weigh in, but all too often, it feels more like throwing a singular trans person to the wolves, or forcing a singular trans person to prove the worth of their entire community and speak for all of us. And that's... fucking terrifying, and not what a reputable organization that claims to be employing ethical journalism, should do.
What's terrifying is how no one has investigated the rape accusations against Eli and he can openly admit to trafficking controlled substances to children while you suck up to him. Or how you all will bend over backwards to please mentally ill men pretending to be women. I don't want to hear a God damn thing these colonizers have to say. They need to stfu and stop trampling women's rights - that means they get the fck out of women spaces and teams.
There were two trans women there
She's not correct one bit. Eli apart from being an alleged sex offender and a drug distributor is a well known trans activists who us frequented debater and is a political trans activist. This girl doesn't know basic googlebale information, all of the pro feminists are journalists, activists and researchers in the political field, just because you didn't see her on UA-cam shorts doesn't mean anything. In fact, these liberal women are more experience and higher up in their professional sphere, yet they couldn't answer a single question logically.
Not to mention one of the trans people they chose has a controversial history
Like as a trans woman, I'd be fine being on a panel to talk about trans issues, but I'd prefer that the panel was at least 50% trans people themselves as we're most qualified to actually discuss these topics. And I'd prefer the other half are at least slightly educated on trans issues, because these kinds of debates are just turning into "people who understand the nuances and complexities of the issues they're discussing vs the most uninformed people alive throwing out questions with obvious and known answers and acting like they just owned the other side
This is one of my favorite video essays you have done so far! Great work❤️✨
Thank you so much for posting this, Khadija!!!!
"I'm just a nonbinary degenerate, so what do I know?"
Relatable
Don’t care didn’t ask plus you’re white
if we don't need feminism, then
- what about the right to abortion, which in many countries is only granted if lives are at stake?
- what about all the sex workers, who are treated as less-than, who aren't being taken seriously when they're assaulted?
- what about the afghan girls and women being denied the right to education?
- what about the still urgent, still wide-spread issue of female genital mutilation?
- what about american indigenous women experiencing bafflingly disproportionate levels of violence?
- what about child marriages?
- what about the women killed in mass shooting because some incel couldn't get laid?
- what about girls and women in iran, who are risking their lives if their hair is not appropriately covered?
- what about south african girls being assaulted because of men's brain-dead belief that a virgin will cure HIV?
.....
but no, we don't need feminism bc some white woman feels like its a-okay
your intentions are good, but this debate wasnt about feminism outside the US. obviously they wouldnt argue against that. its about feminism in the west specifically
some better points would be:
- when women move en masse to a field that was previously male dominated, that field loses prestige and pay. happened with biologists , designers, and park rangers
- when a woman out earns the man, she is actually expected to do even more housework
- women are diagnosed later than men across hundreds of diseases
- if you remind a woman of her gender before taking a science/math exam, she will do worse than if you had not reminded her. this says something about socialization
- for many "low paying male dominated jobs" like a janitor or garbage man, there is a corresponding female dominated field that earns even less. like house worker or maid
- if a woman reports abuse from her partner, her chances of winning custody decrease dramatically. the opposite happens for a man
- there are laws in the united states which would ake it very difficult to report trafficking of women, since they get charged with prostitution
- sex work in general is a miserable thing. its women in vulnerable positions being pimped out by a man for other men. that will and could never be empowering
- women are most likely to be killed by their partners
- in general the rate of sexual assault is unacceptable and is a huge barrier
- traditionally female fields like social worker, teacher, nurse are notoriously underpaid
h@@valqzx1144 Everything you have noted can be easily debunked or explained.So how is feminism supposed to wipe this out?
Feminism is NOT about women's right to be exploited by men for sex. Ya'll need to stop shoving everything under the umbrella of Feminism. That's not to say it's ok to abuse them but promoting sex work only benefits men. Sex workers have their group and that's fine. They have to advocate for themselves but that's not Feminism.
@@valqzx1144 oh oops i missed that part!
@@ng38477 who here is promoting sex work?? the women who turn to that field typically don't do so because it's their dream job, they're usually in a really bad financial situation, so the least we as a society can do is not treat them like they're human garbage. like that's not helping them get out of it
I don't leave comments very often bc I'm high key afraid of the heat in YT comments, but I gotta say, I love you girl. Love your mind & your courage. Thank you for being a voice of reason in this really horrifying time. Honestly, shame on Vice & all these shitty media platforms for taking advantage of these women & setting up that shit show 'debate,' and for taking advantage of the ignorance, pain and normalized/internalized hatred of their audience. This clearly does more harm than good - I don't think their intention, or the intentions of any of these corporate media giants, are to help resolve or bring more understanding to these issues. I honestly think they intend to make them worse because $$$. I'm so tired of all this. Thank you for trying to bring balance to the chaos.
Thank you! It is SO important in all of these so called discussions and debates on issues to define what the issue is - media would be doing that if in good faith. This “debate” was clearly not done in good faith. And they know better. They know that feminism meaning is widely misunderstood.
The debate showed me there is a lot of work to be done and we haven't come that far insofar as where we need to go
Feminism has not accomplished much and propaganda works to hide that fact. Simone de Beauvoir is essential reading.
Yelling “cishet white male” and “all men are rapists” is probably a waste and even detrimental at times too.
@@Daniel-tx2vt No one is saying that
@@Daniel-tx2vt name me one person who publicly said all men are rapists
@@burnt-reynolds no one YOU know is saying that.
The title of this is perfect 😂 down to the emoji, so excited
khadija i gotta say it bestie: a: the red looks AMAZING on u and b: ur laugh is literally sunshine and c: tysm for putting this essay together!!
Genuinely think the way you do this commentary is so good. As a trans guy (debating as I learn of binaries and gender systems whether i am nonbinary instead) but i loved how you brought in actual sources I can now use to follow up with and specified when things were being simplified and how language as me with dyslexia doesn't always need to be big words to back important points, which as I have been trying to explain to others for years, i had to ask alot and was belittled when i didn't know a word. Plus from disscussions i had with family on gender etc i had to learn when to listen to get to the bottom of their understanding and why they couldn't except who i am
They made a mistake by calling a certain Girlboss on that show. Seems like Jubilee Fever has hit everyone.
I am SO happy you talked about this !!!
The annoying part was when the women would say “as a disabled/trans/colored women I can’t answer that comparison”…..okayyyyyy then compare you as a women in a wheelchair with no legs to a man in a wheelchair with no legs and tell me what advantage he has over you . Or as a colored women what advantages do colored men have over you. Stop avoiding the question and playing pity parties and just answer the dang questions
Mhmmm, this debate felt like who’s more ‘oppressed’ competition rather than discussing what issues women face that men don’t .
I found it hypocritical when JustPearlyThings said that the other “micro-identities” are noise in the feminism conversation, BUT as soon as she was talking about how few resources there are for women athletes, SUDDENLY it is important to address the fact that she’s an athlete too 🙄 I don’t know how she doesn’t see that she’s contradicting herself. Truly a lost opportunity to learn about other life trajectories, but as you rightfully said, some people just want to stay in intellectual comfort.
Considering that the moral panic around trans women in sports has mostly gotten intersex and lesbian athletes of color banned until now, it's not a surprise she is weaponizing her status as an athlete. It's quite literally the ploy: exclude all of these women out of womanhood like they did in sports.
She is doing it for the money. She doesn't believe what she is talking about.
She is not contradicting herself. She understand the difference between micro and macro issues. And she is smart enogh to know, that the resources for women athletes are a result of public interest. Women don't want to watch female athletes play, therefore there is almost no money from sponsors. Women want to watch shows like Keeping up with the Kardashians and turned them into billionaires. Female models outearn male Models because women buy more things. Women just prefer a different type of entertainment compared to men.
Additionly, Pearls issue with trans women in sports is not a topic that modern Feminists view critically. In fact it is a result of modern feminism and it gives Pearl a reason to dislike Feminism as they aren't on her side when she addresses it.
@@pikapi6993 thats an assumption...
@@whyaminotoriginal what is an assumption? she literally said "we are not as interesting as men". That is a fact.
“to erode at the idea that to be woman is to be less than” YES.
“my expanding definition of feminism as i know it in 2023 is about the eroding of the idea that to be man means one thing and to be woman means another thing and therefore one gender always has to be the subordinate or the dominant of the other and therefore there always has to be a power struggle between the genders. as oppose to an exchange that flows back and fourth”
as a fellow hippie and non-binary generate THANK YOU 😌🙌🏼 seriously though thank you- i will be referencing, quoting and implementing this definition of feminism in my life from this point onwards!!
I appreciate you for making this video. Love the way you break it down. It's always nice to find a new, interesting channel.
It really felt like everyone on that panel was looking for thier moment to gotcha the other person instead of actually debating