The Feminine urge to Internalize the Male Gaze, unpacking desirability 🥴 | Khadija Mbowe
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
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0:00 Play
0:17 Intro
4:11 So what is this Male Gaze
15:52 Time to talk about desirability...
21:37 damned either way
28:08 Menzis pay attention
30:21 Outro
31:11 Credits extra interviews
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Books mentioned
Sexed Up- Julia Sereno
What we don’t talk about when we talk about Fat- Aubrey Gordon
Some Reads
Male gaze
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze
Visual pleasure and narrative cinema
www.columbia.edu/itc/architect...
Explainer: what does the ‘male gaze’ mean, and what about a female gaze?
theconversation.com/explainer...
Scopophilia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopoph...
Voyeurism vs Scopophile - What's the difference?
wikidiff.com/voyeurism/scopop...
Kelly Oliver Male Gaze
d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net...
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I am so sorry to hear that you were assaulted multiple times during your life, and so grateful that you shared some of your story with us - the people who watch your videos to learn, to evaluate our preconceived notions, and to broaden our schemas. Your channel has a lot of young viewers, and I know how important it is for them to see that these experiences can be shared in the light instead of buried in the dark.
I’ve only watched maybe 4 or 5 of your videos and I’m looking forward to seeing more from you! Here’s to your joy and abundance. 🎉💪💜
Commenting for the algorithm. Great video.
People are gonna make their movies the way they wanna fukkin' make their movies.
I can assure you- NO ONE was trying to make ANYONE feel bad with Jessica Rabbit :)
I'm glad she got made ^_^
People mad about this so called "Male Gaze" are just salty cuz no one wants'em.
Which I can understand why that sucks...
But what can you do ???
"a womans legs, a womans torso", idk about caring for legs m8, its the ass > waist ratio, and tits, not legs men look at.. lol?
One of the hardest parts of recovering from my eating disorder has been gaining weight and noticing how men treat me differently. It's surprising once you have men slam doors in your face and refuse to acknowledge your existence. It's something I noticed when I changed my gender presentation too. I think it's mostly difficult because you realize that this whole time, the only reason you were given human respect was because that man wanted to use you and your body. And ultimately, that isn't respect - it's objectification.
This is where I think body positivity in it's truest form is necessary for lifting women up. I think we need to remind ourselves that the men who act that way are the real people who are unlovable, because they are of the mindset where they cannot accept love. Your body may not fit the modern beauty standards, but it is lovable.
I had a similar problem when I started bulking for weight lifting, but internally. I actually grew a more attractive body when I was bulking because my butt grew and became rounder. The problem was I was fixated on the development of belly fat and cheek fat and I felt like I was becoming more unattractive because I looked less like a skinny person in a magazine and more like your average woman (and I HAAAATED it.) It just wasn't true though. My boyfriend was grabbing handfuls and loving me all the same, because he was able to receive love.
We as women have to pick well, and dismiss the ones who can't receive love so they don't have power over us/ the overall societal perception of women.
This is what I experience as well. When I was younger I was seen as undesirable because of my dark skin, then I became desirable and when I present myself as ambiguous, male, overweight, then I would hoped to not be treated as an object anymore. But no, I get ignored, receive hostility and outright rudeness, because I'm not eyecandy to them anymore so I get punished for it because they feel they need to put me in my place.
Thank you for this. It makes a lot of sense.
I’ve had an ED too and also gained weight at times and I totally hear you.
Human respect? Can you explain that please? If men don't hold doors open for me as another man, are they not respecting me as a human?
There's this weird thing as a teen where you know catcalling and Street harrassment is bad, and you don't want it to happen, but also if it's not happening to you and it is happening to your peers you begin wondering if there's something wrong with you.
It's so heartbreaking that the amount of violence against you is a metric by which you can measure your worth
How is catcalling violence?
@@raqui174 Violence isn't always physical, I think words can certainly be violent. Something as dehumanizing and misogynistic as catcalling is violence against women.
omg thank u. this is how i feel
@@raqui174 Because it makes people (primarily women who are the main recipients) feel like prey and women's sexualization is often paired with violence. There is always the threat of violence. It is not only boundary crossing and makes women feel uncomfortable, but women's sexualization is often used as justification for men's harassment, assault, abduction, etc. Similarly, calling a POC the n word is also violence because that term has been used to dehumanize POC for a long term and physical violence has been used alongside that term.
This. I tried to find a way to word this more... tastefully, for lack of a better term, but I couldn't coherently express it. You hit the nail on the head
I've seen women get criticized for wearing makeup, fake nails, weave, etc just so they can look conventionally attractive in society. Then when they decide to go natural, they get criticized for leaving the house "looking like that." It's like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Are these people supposed to just not exist or expect to live in the darkness, alone?? It's fucked.
They want you to have perfect skin perfect nails the perfect body, but not through makeup beauty treatments diets etc. They want the perfect effortless woman, so they can pretend what they want is easy and every woman can do it. They don't want the facade to break, wanting not a human woman but a perfect doll
Everyone has a different opinion and many of them share it.
Different people criticize different stuff.
In my experience men are the ones criticizing women for doing too much and women are the one's who criticize women for doing too little. Am I wrong on this assumption
Do your makeup how you want, your body and all. But when people say "no makeup" they mean unnoticeable makeup.
There is a sweet spot though for the type of people who say this, and that's why they would disagree. They're fine with make-up if it's "no makeup" makeup, even though it takes 20 minutes longer than it would to just throw on a red lip. They're fine with nails as long as they are not pointy and artificial looking, even if they are artificial. They're fine with weave as long as it looks like long glossy natural hair. The "I wake up looking like a supermodel, no effort" look. We just all need to look like that/s.
The dilemma of being asexual and still having that internalized want for the male gaze because you realize there's a social currency involved with being desirable. Working on getting through that.
THISSS. Like, I'm not even interested in a sexual encounter but I'm afraid of my body and my looks being perceived as undesirable - that is wild to me.
@@SMya-xk3jr i’m realizing that this is literally the biggest reason that i am so self-conscious about the way i look. i have no goals when i go outside but to do what i had plans for, but feel as though i need to “look palatable” for my presence/existence in a place to be valid :/
I really miss when I was 10 and didn’t know about any of this stuff and just wanted to do backflips in the deep end and watch SpongeBob.
Ridiculous. No such thing exists except in your own mind. Where the fuck are you people living in? A SOCIAL CURRENCY? BASED OFF OF MEN'S VIEWS OF WOMEN?
Talk about nonsense, LOL.
ikr. as a fellow aroace person, it's laughably absurd how wrapped up my self-worth is in a concept that shouldn't even matter to me
not to mention, i don't want anything to do with relationships, yet the amount of men that know i'm aroace still only talk to me because they want to date/have sex with me is insane
When you said you were trying to look desirable to men when you weren’t even attracted to men half of the time, I realized, once again, it’s not technically about being desired by men. It’s being on a pedestal that says you are "okay". You are a woman who may live. Who is free. You are fine. Everyone sees you and will say: This is okay. You may live. Because the overlords have accepted her. It’s not power, not in the slightest, but it’s a skewed idea of "safety". Now you may also be funny. Now you may open your mouth. Now you may be.
thank you! This is an interesting perspective!
That's just how I feel. I don't try to be pretty for be desired by men, I try to be pretty bc I'm scared if I'm not, I won't be able to be
Love this! It’s soooo true
This is an EXCELLENT TAKE. We want to present a certain way just so we can exist in this world safely and unbothered
“You pass the test, you may live. But only within this very specific box we tested for.”
The internalized male gaze is so horrible and powerful that, in my opinion, it has become disconnected from men and has taken on a life of its own. What I mean is, even if individual men dont reinforce it, it still exists and controls our minds and feelings of self worth and desirability.
Im from Saudi Arabia and we have segregated everything. Parties, weddings, family gatherings...etc everything is gender segregated, and yet still all the women experience this desire to be desirable to men in the way media portrays desirability", even though there are literally no men around. It sucks and affects women and femmes even when we are alone.... we could be completely alone in our house, in our pajamas just chilling, and feel bad for not looking like the desirable archetype of a sexy woman that is presented in media.
Not “ gender segregated” its sex separeted
This one hurt cuz I feel guilty too for sitting with my partner in our own dang house and not looking like the sexy archetype of a woman even though he doesn’t even want that and is so sweet.
Recently I realized how internalized the male gaze was for me. Usually I feel good about myself, I like my body and face even though it's far from perfect.
I was looking for a workout tutorial on IG and I came across a beautiful white woman with that perfect toned hourglass body and round butt. Someone commented something sexist like " this the kind of girl who do that and then complain about men staring"
I answered"well men are staring regardless of what you wear and the type of exercise you do"
Then the hate started, several men commented : "you have nothing to stare at " and the were commenting laughing emojis, puke emojis etc...
I was like Tf ??
It was yesterday and I still feel strangely bad about myself now.
@@LoXena ignore them they're just clowns
Especially when they don't feed it. The number of women who reinforce it when he doesnt...... force of socialization Imma start calling it
As a plus size SA survivor, I remember my attacker outright saying that I should feel lucky because nobody else would want me. Some people of the male species AINT SHIT!
"male species" Totally not dehumanising, nice one there, Captain Equality.
@@user-ny1dd4nh2j You're welcome troll
Wow...that's terrible. What an absolute p.o.s.
@@user-ny1dd4nh2j stfu. She said some.
@@katom1544 English, please.
Being attractive to men is a social currency. it doesn't matter if I'm looking for a male partner or not. I need to be attractive to men. The number one way to be able to communicate with half of the population and get what you need from them, is to be attractive to them. I don't mean this in a manipulative way. I mean like, literally to get them to consider me an acquaintance, a contact, to get a point across in conversation, for more than one time. Mind you this is my experience where I used to live. Culture is a factor too, I believe.
at least you can be attractive
exactly. sadly, women get more respect and kindness from people (especially men) if they’re conventionally attractive.
@@valvanessa495 stop confusing objectification with respect. sure they open the door for you, offer to help you and listen to you but the min you reject them watch how quick that "respect and kindness" turns into "i did this and that for her and she still didn't sleep with me".
yall are just choosing what you guys think is the lesser of two evils whether its a girl who'd rather be ugly than be harrassed for being pretty or a girl who'd rather be pretty than be mistreated for being ugly. these options are both traps of the male gaze. its social currency for being pretty but what happens when youre in a situation where boss hit on you or a creep follows you home bc you rejected him? you get blamed for it.
@@glamglam8347 oh for sure, it's more of a pick-your-safety-hazard kinda deal
Something that I have experienced is I felt unattractive and undesirable because I wasn’t catcalled. I felt ugly because I wasn’t street harassed. That’s messed up and I have taken time to unpack that.
Oh Lord, I experienced so much of that so I've NEVER desired male attention. At best it felt disrespectful and at worst it felt threatening.
Being catcalled is NOTHING to do with your desirability. It's just a pissing contest for men.
@@rejectionisprotection4448 100%. There’s no honor in being catcalled.
I completely understand you!!
I get you. You make perfect sense believe it or not
I understand how you feel, because I felt the same way until the first time I was catcalled. Once it happened, I realized that it’s by no means a man trying to voice his appreciation of or compliment a woman. Catcalling is a power play that shitty men perform to make women feel uncomfortable in public spaces and to “remind them of their place”. Trust me you’re not missing out, though I understand your feelings.
Growing up being told you're pretty and then realizing that you may be trans or non-binary, choosing to present masculine feels like letting people down. "A waste of a pretty face" kind of thing. Like how could I be so ungrateful, what if I'm not "pretty" as a man? It's complicated. This gave me a lot to think about.
So did your comment for me 💕
This, so much. I'm terrified of "wasting" what I have-- Especially since I'm not secure in whether I am actually gender divergent or not. What happens if I go forward... and end up regretting it, having lost what I was given?
For me its the opposite, I dont feel that pretty in my assigned gender, and I feel very happy and pretty testing out more "feminine" stuff, but it also draws to me the attention of guys so...
To make you feel better, I'm considered pretty in my country and tribe. I have a disability, and am told I have a charismstic charming personality.
All my childhood I was told I waste of a pretty face. I remember once when I was twelve this lady came to my house and sang me praises for hours then turned on me saying, "even with all that no one would ever marry a blind girl!"
I was told that when I transitioned. I stopped taking hormones because I realized I wasn't transmasculine but I was still genderqueer(GNC)
As a bisexual girl, it made me sad to realize how the male gaze has affected the way I view women. I was exposed to sexual desirability from a young age. The male gaze has affected not only how I view myself as a woman but it also affected how I view other women. It sort of makes me feel stuck sometimes. It led to me becoming hyper-sexual for others' desires and also hyper-sexualizing other women. It feels like viewing women from a man's eyes. I'm only 16 and it upsets me how no one around protected me from being exposed to a lot of sexual things like p0rn, anime (Even if it's not always inherently sexual, the female characters that were made obviously for satisfying the male gaze make me struggle with my body image a lot even if it seems pretty dumb to let drawings/cartoons make me feel so bad myself), and just overall predominantly male spaces where women are sexualized. This is a very complex thing but I hope I was able to explain the internal struggles I'm currently going through and I'm trying to recover from. It's very hard to acknowledge these issues because of the fear of judgment. The male gaze is destructive.
You’re doing really good watching these videos and being cognoscente of all of this at a young age. Now, you can help educate and protect those socialized as women.
Absolutely relatable.
Peer pressure is painful, to perform the objectification of women while not being protected yourself from the male gaze is peak capitalist patriarchal madness.
I am so proud of you for acknowledging and working on that. I feel like in sapphic spaces a lot of people struggle to recognize this problem.
This is a big mood. I'm transmasculine and pansexual and in a kind of tangential way, the male gaze has made me too uncomfortable to pursue relationships with women. Now that I present as male, there's this uncomfortable unspoken expectation from femme folks and straight men for me to be this aggressive, hungry predator. And the other half of it is that I've internalized that that's what "real masculinity" is and that since I'm not that, I'm not worth being with to a woman. Gender roles are a trip 😂
I went through this exact thing when I was this age, as well. I hope to offer some solace in that you do eventually learn to view people from an empathetic perspective outside of what was fed to you growing up, but be kind to yourself because that literally won’t be able to happen until your brain develops a little more. You can be empathetic to an extent now, but it becomes easier as you get a little older.
I’m only about 9 years older, but the way I view the world and people is a 180° difference and I’m so much kinder to myself now than I was when I was 16. You’re on a good path. Keep going!
i got tired of trying to please the male gaze as a woman, i am conventionally unattractive, and no matter how hard i tried i never was seen as attractive, especially where i grew up. never complimented and never wanted, disrespected by almost every boy/man i came across. later on i realized that this was making me so insecure. i felt unwanted and so alone. i needed to make a change. I started being myself and doing things for myself. i became such a happy person. I dress in different styles everyday. even though men still don’t respect me a lot, i keep it moving. just love yourself and keep it moving.❤
So instead focusing on ur physical appearance which u can't change much why don't you focus on ur hobbies and accomplishments,carreer to give ur validation. Because even if ur not deemed attractive by society u still have things to offer as a person. Like I'm an average to below average looking but people tell me how good I am at art and music that gives me some validation I need from people.
@@lazysnorlax3015 i dont really care about validation from others anymore, ive changed myself for the better, but thanks for the advice.
@@potatowithgooglyeyes2458 Ok that cool do u boo
In Indian movies, there are so many narratives of ‘Man slaps Girlboss into submission’ and that’s passed off as romantic drama.
Omg wtf
literally khushi and arnav, and I'm just always like huh?????
which movies? i’m sure ur right, every john abraham character comes to mind
The only recent Bollywood movie where anything like that happened was Kabir Singh, and that caused quite a lot of controversy with much of the public condemning it. I can't remember any other recent instances in Bollywood of this happening, are you talking more about the other film industries? I know KS was based on Arjun Reddy which is a Tollywood film, but I don't have much experience with Telegu films, is it more common there?
That's disturbing
As someone who struggles a lot with feeling completely undesirable/undesired, I'm genuinely scared to watch this video 😅
As someone who puts too much value into my physical looks, so am I!!
@@itsniquenique45 This! 😭
Same
Glad I’m not alone here😂
Me too. Even when folks tell me I am desirable lmao
It’s so hard because so many people don’t realize that deferring to the male gaze and trying to please men isn’t just about dating and hooking up, it’s a survival tactic as well.
I struggled with my ex because it felt like he was only interested in me because of my body. I talked to him about it and he always said he liked me for my personality. However he only ever complemented my body, objectified me, and constantly called me a tease when I was just existing. It was really uncomfortable and I never want to be in a relationship like that again.
This was my experience as well, never again
Oh I'm so sorry for you. You may find peace and a loving stable connection when the time comes❤❤❤❤
still trying to figure out if my masculine-presenting inclinations are really who i am inside or if it's just a defense mechanism against the male gaze, male-related trauma, and my own internalized misogyny
I had the exact opposote problem- or sort of the same, i guess? Very masculine girl growing up, with a genuine aversion to things i thought were too girly and the color pink. Got to highschool, and within the mess of my sexuality started becoming obsessed with being "pretty enough" and became a lot more conventionally feminine. I labeled my early tomboyishness as internalized misogyny, not realizing i had just replaced it with a different flavor of internalized misogyny. Only recently did i cut my hair short and am dressing more masculine again (only now without degrading girls who are more feminine than me, because i've grown up and realized women are not a monolith and a woman being different from me doesn't make her lesser.) And one thing i've noticed is that now when i buy clothes i think about how much i like how i look, instead of how attractive i think i am. I hadn't realized those were different things. I thought i'd liked the way i looked of i looked in the mirror and thought "yeah this person is attractive" and only now can i look and think "oh hey that's me, nice"
It's hard figuring out what is really our own desire and what is just conformity, when the pressure to conform is so strong. But i think chasing that feeling ("that's me, nice") will get you to the right place.
me too 😭😭 also with wearing literally anything that could be considered sexy or revealing. it's not because i *don't* want to be perceived as attractive, and i'm not shy, but the thought of a MAN perceiving me sexually is terrifying and makes me want to cover up everything possible.
bruh this is exactly what I feel like
I genuinely do not know what I really want, if i dress more 'feminine' it just doesn't feel like me, and if I dress more 'masculine' it feels like I'm trying to avoid so called femininity
The best I can do is do a bit of good ol' introspection and find out what's best for me, labels suck anyway
@@nat-coffeebat oh man I can relate
same!
Wanting male attention is a guilty pleasure I have and I feel so lame admitting that lmaooo
you are definitely not alone.
Yes, you are not alone
That’s normal
I remember when people ( mostly men) dragged Ayesha Curry for admitting that 😞
literally i be feeling so slimy for feeling that
I think age and growing older is also a component here in desirability. Again, the male gaze wishes you were younger, and as you grow older and get “less f***able” to men, it hurts in a sickly way. It’s not like you actually want to be objectified…but you also do want to be desired? It’s a f’d up situation man. I think older women are amazing.
It's about being seen, of having some significance. The more desirable you are to men, the more you are "seen" and regarded as important in society. That's why aging women often feel invisible and small. People see right through them. This is not true for aging men.
@@Blue74 homeless dudes?
@@Blue74 men are never desired in their life
so of course it's not true, how can you lose something you never had?
I remember when a man in his 30s said to me once " you're very beautiful. How old are you?" I responded 27 and he said "oh, that's too old".
@@cedar4539 the way you said that point perfectly men dont need to be desired to be seen as people
"You are undesirable, so we can do whatever we want to you, say whatever we want, who's gonna believe you" to "You are desirable and beautiful, therefore I can do whatever I want to you". This is impressively put omg, summed up my experience from being "excluded from the male gaze" to be "within the male gaze". The experience was extremely confusing and frustrating. You nailed it right there.
In summary: they harass you anyway.
"You should be thankful that they want to r*pe you" vs "You should be ashamed that no one wants to".
@@BarbieMariposa1613 jsaj el username ♡
Yep i always say
The men that treat "ugly" women bad are the ones that treat "pretty" women bad.
"Eye of Sauron" are the three words that I would describe the male gaze as.
You won.
I apologise
My uneducated ass off to Google
- chefs kiss -
The perfect analogy, yes.
I’ve had the opposite experience in terms of not seeing men as people. I’ve been taught that they are always wanting something from you, and always have the potential to harm you, I’ve generally avoided men and thought of them as dangerous things to avoid. I know have to reframe my mind to remember they are people too and have complex feelings. It’s been a process and I def haven’t finished that journey yet.
Damn. Same. It's terrible but same.
That part sis 👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽 always wanting something from u! Always!! It'll never change
Guess I’m the opposite. I know men always want something. I play the game to get what I want. Without giving them what they want.
This is how I was raised to view men too. Sort of like parasites and emotional vampires. Always asking for more than they offer. My POV of them changed when I moved to the cities and met more well rounded men not just the cavemen. Unfortunately I learned a man born into privilege and a poor one think the same for some weird reason.
Yes it’s something I still catch myself doing where I just expect nothing from men but I need to remember that we were all socialized and capable of growth and empathy. It just also depends how willing men around you are. I don’t think it’s any woman or femme person’s fault for not trusting men and wanting them to figure it out themselves either though.
the male gaze is SO internalized in us women, that I remember one day this girl said to me "you have a pretty face, but your body is ok, so I can see guys liking you but more cause of your face" I was just there kinda shocked that a girl said this to me, I didn't know how to react, when i've been a person who works-out takes care of my body and I may not have the biggest ass or breasts but I've learned to love my body as it is.. my own family (aunts) would make comments about my body, and compare me to my female cousin, I come from a latina culture, and having the insanely large ass and tits is what is "desirable" it's such a shame that a lot of us women harass other women over the way we look.
I REALLY WISH people would stop using people's faces as part of "aesthetics" especially those who clearly have had the money to get surgery to look that way, unconsciously they're upholding the beauty standard, like I like beauty...and makeup and all....but not every song or edit, or aesthetics needs a "pretty" face on it. It's almost like we're commodifying people's faces.
hi! i’m mixed (black and white) with a naturally slim & petite build. i’m 5”1 w/ narrower hips, an average sized butt for my build, and c cups. i was bullied relentlessly before adolescence for not having that coke bottle body and a big ass. i was told to do squats, eat more meat, and wear push up bras at the age of 10 by my fellow mixed, black & afro-latina peers. i’ve noticed that in both black and a lot of latin spaces, there is this similar stereotype for us, and if we don’t meet it we must be “less of a woman”. i didn’t see my friends that were white girls deal with this. it’s like because i’m not white passing, i am “supposed” to have that body type as a marker of my femininity in direct connection to my ethnicity. because of this i felt even more pressure on my hair to define my femininity for a long time. can totally relate
I agree with so many commenters here. My question is, why can't I criticize the sex positive movement without being called jealous or a prude?
Women are still a commodity, still objectified, still not respected, still abused, and now young girls are saying they feel like they have to do everything sexually or else they are not considered feminist.
Why do I have to accept that female empowerment is cheering for hot celebrity women getting naked and having sex in every movie, when I don't believe in that?
This is true!
I started noticing the male gaze when I was 5. Yep. At 7 I was assaulted and when I went to tell Big Mama I was told it was my fault. So the male gaze translated to violence in my eyes. I hated skirts and tried my best to downplay whatever I thought they were looking at. I was a tomboy and just didn’t want to be bothered. I was often followed, chased, and sometimes caught. Sometimes I got away. The male gaze has always made me feel uncomfortable. I was socialized as a girl to the extreme. I only liked guys who appeared to show no interest in me. Fast forward I’m asexual and prefer women.
did we live the same life ? lmao... i hope you keep growing and healing for yourself you deserve it so much !!x
That's really sad, hope you're doing alright ❤️
@@anotherstorm I feel so seen! I hope you are healing and well too. My life has been a trip. For sure.
@@lenaeospeixinhos thank you. I’m doing alright. I engrossed myself in education and raising kids. Now they’re grown and I have a doctorate and still trying to figure it all out. Thank you.
@@anotherstorm I was thinking the same thing...
OMG I felt the ‘I don’t have the looks so I’ll get a personality’ on a spiritual and metaphysical level.
This is something the author Aubrey Gordon, who khadija mentioned mentioned on her podact maintenance phase (highly reccomend). Aubrey mentioned how one time she wanted to take part in a high school play and was casted as a maid with two lines: "yes sir" and "no sir" and she point about how fat people are seen as playing a role of servitude in their relationships and how that may have impacted why she was casted for that role. Like since you're fat and therefore not desirable, you need to make yourself useful and you need to come into the room knowing that that is your place on the social hierarchy and if you dont know that, you're going to get negative reactions. People treat you like an NPC because you're not desirable to them. Non fat Friends of hers have come to her to be seen and heard by venting to her but when Aubrey wants the favor returned they dont want to. They treat her as if thats not what they entered the relationship with her for. And Aubrey does state that those people in her life may not be aware of that dynamic even if she does. When youre fat you're like the side charector who pushes the plot along in other people's lives but you're not expected to have wants and needs yourself and if you do, you dont come to your non fat friends for that.
its really disgusting all around how if youre not conventionally attractive, you're expected to compensate for it, if you want any measure of approval or acceptance. like you need to prove your worth because your worth isn't being clearly displayed by your body, which is the universally accepted form of social currency.
I agree. Def something I can relate to
Yes!
@t And that's the part that makes not being conventionally beautiful that much more unbearable. The fact that people think you're not worthy of basic respect and decency. It is so unnecessary to go out of your way to insult someone's looks yet so many people don't care to exercise self-control when they see an opportunity to exploit someone else's vulnerabilities in a way most people will at least, passively accept in their presence. It's one thing to be judgmental of other people based on their looks but it's a whole other level of shitty to not keep your comments to yourself.
" I don’t know how to mentally “accept” or get over this position society expects me to live in."
Well, if you want my unsolicited opinion, I was in a similar situation and I found that I could reconcile the fact that other people have certain expectations of me and also, that I don't have to adhere to those expectations. I eventually learned to be ok with disappointing others when it came to their expectations of me and leaving them looking stupid.
Other people don't set expectations for me, I do. They don't deserve to so much power over me that their opinion means anything. Who are they to judge anyway? What importance do they hold in my life anyway? are they a loved one? do they sign my paychecks? no? then they don't matter. And even then, you can still cut off family members and get a new job (theoretically).
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Ask 10 people for their opinion, and you'll get 11 answers back. Other people are not more important than me in my life, and what they want is attention and a reaction to prove they can influence me. They're not important enough to give my time or attention to them. I don't have to give them a reaction. As long as they don't get physical or inhibit me from my goals, then what they think doesn't matter. Also, I've never been called ugly by someone who looked better than me, and neither have you :)
To hell with anyone who has a problem with you refusing to come to heel. I have had similar experiences where it was hard to accept that other people are going to treat me a certain way due to expectations they have based on my outward appearance (solidarity with marginalized groups really help because its something we all experience in some form).
What helped me was accepting that although other people won't treat me the way I deserve to be treated, I know I deserve better than that and I can't help how I look. And I'm the one who can give me better. I can give myself the self-compassion others refuse to give to me, and I can choose who I interact with. It's also true that you can't self-confidence your way out of the impact others have on you because there's only so much shifting perspective can reasonably do, and the main problem here is how others treat you, not your perspective on the situation anyway, and also all you can really control is how you react, you can't control how others decide to treat you.
That was long and rambly but I hope you can get something out of it.
@t Omgg same is so tiring
I was sexually harassed and SA’d in high school. Then when I went to college I didn’t receive a lot of romantic attention. It really made me feel like only creepy guys found me attractive which made me feel really gross. I was also in the process of figuring out I was a lesbian. Now I’m in a very positive relationship with my gf but there are times I still struggle with feeling undesirable. Being in a relationship doesn’t fix insecurity which is something I’m working through.
if you're not desirable then you're not
you have to improve to fit the beauty standards more and then you will be
When Khadija said "...mostly because I was darkskin and ugly..." - I realised just how fucked up the world and its perceptions of beauty really are because KHADIJA is absolutely beautiful. It is one of the first thing I noticed when I watched her Bridgerton video essay some years ago. I cannot even process that sentence because it JUST does not ring true. Anyways, sending love from Cape Town Khadija ❤ - keeping doing you. I look forward to hearing your thoughts every week
I felt the same Khadija is so gorgeous its hard to think that even she feels that way.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. I have a pretty gender-neutral style and often wear more baggy menswear-type clothing so I receive little to no attention from straight men. And when I see them flirting with my more feminine-presenting friends, I feel this pang of jealously EVEN if I don't find the men attractive. I literally just feel jealous of the male attention because I know it implies beauty, power, and social capital.
BUT, when I actually wear something more feminine and figure-hugging and receive the attention I was jealous of, I'm either uncomfortable or straight up hate it! It makes no sense at all but that's how it is...the patriarchy has a stranglehold on my feelings.
I think my true wish is that a guy will like how I dress and look regardless of how feminine it is because he actually likes ME, the person wearing the clothes, but we all know how rare and unusual that is...not to mention it takes time and energy to get to know someone for real.
I feel the same way, I like to dress feminine or masculine depending on the day and I never get any male attention on the days I dress masculine lol
Don't lose hope, it is possible to find someone who will love you regardless of the clothes you wear
Just seems like you have some level of confidence issues tbh. It shouldn’t bother you one bit who talks to your friends. But when you get that same attention, it makes you mad?
Damned if you do. Damned if you don’t. You gotta just work on your confidence or self esteem.
i think men finding someone attractive* presenting out of the norm isn't that rare, what is rare is them revealing that they find women-passing people that are out of the norm attractive. men will be shamed for liking people outside of victoria secret models in their own circles, so if they find someone outside of that attractive there is often shame and concealment.
*edit, forgot to add this word
I can almost guarantee there have been guys who see you the way you want to be seen but didn’t say it to you out loud, either because they didn’t know how, or it was never the right time, or they were afraid of being humiliated.
@@jamesrawlings46 then it is frustrating when men won't own up to this. They deny that society influences their "preference" while listing it all as what society finds ideal.
I don't know how many times Ive seen recent articles champion a man for rejecting a fat girl. See he has "standards" and a "preference" and that fat girl is clearly unhealthy (even though you really can't tell a person's health by size). But nevermind the ultra-skinny women they find attractive (who, based on BMI, would also be considered unhealthy).
Honestly its so damn annoying, looking at myself at a certain way just to realize I'm looking at my self the way a man would, as undesirable or desirable. Even when I'm completely alone, I'll find myself trying to look pretty, to sit prettily, and to eat prettily instead of comfortably.
On the other end, I get so annoyed that I'll completely reject anything that even remotely resembles the male gaze, for example I'll lie down all comfy but suddenly realize that I'm lying down in a way a man might find appealing, so I'll change into a less comfy position. Sometimes I think I'll never escape this shit. Its just like that Margaret Atwood quote that EVERYTHING you do is a male fantasy and that you are your own voyeur
Anyhow, at the end of the day I believe that you should do what makes you comfortable, as long as you reflect a little to make sure you aren't unconsciously following it and it doesn't hurt you directly or indirectly, men be damned
kinda long comment but thanks to anyone who read
this!!
@@christopherbrown5409 that’s literally what that means…
@@christopherbrown5409 girl 💀 relax
@@christopherbrown5409 "men" in this context is referring to the internal male gaze that lives in people raised/socialized/seen as women, which is often supported (or simply not challenged) by irl men. i'd personally unpack why you thought this refereed to you specifically and see what you could do to challenge this idea of a woman's worth = looks in your own life, if you haven't already.
@@christopherbrown5409 lmfaooo don’t start tussling now
In my late teen years, I gained weight and was immediately put in my place as the funny fat friend, my bff constantly made jokes in front of others abt how they always had a partner and I was always single. Then we reached 18 and my bff was personally offended and accused me of being a close minded prude, when I said I wasn’t interested in hook-up culture. The thing was, I didn’t have time for men who only deemed me “good enough I guess” for a brief physical encounter. People who have no idea of what it’s like to be undesirable, sometimes don’t know the feeling of wanting someone to genuinely care about you for more than basic physical looks. I don’t want to be good enough to be a talking fleshlight, I want to be loved. And it does get better and I’m glad I didn’t settle for hookups. It was worth it.
You'd be surprised how many men can relate to that.
Most don't even get the "good enough" treatment
@@HibiTeamQueso Yeah, Id say a good 70-80% of men are truly invisible, and have to work their asses off to get any attention. Not saying men have it worse, but its a thought I can’t help having during these discussions.
@@HibiTeamQueso I'd be curious to know how men can relate considering men aren't typically marked up on their physical appearance the way women are?
@@contrarian9999 Men who aren't attractive aren't necessarily shamed. They are invisible.
Being invisible is much worse than being "good enough" just for your looks.
A lot of men can only dream of getting that treatment.
To make a metaphor:
Women get a lot of food but they don't like the food they get.
Men are hungry and they don't get any food.
Both experiences are quiet sad, but they are different
@@HibiTeamQueso I don't think you quite understand what women actually go through. Women that are "good enough" are essentially dehumanized into nothing but a walking fleshlight. Beautiful women arent treated as people but as objects. Ugly women are flat out ignored or mocked.
The male gaze is probably partially why it took me so long to realise I'm a lesbian imo. I'm sure other lesbians have had this too. You care about how men perceive you and then translate that into you being attracted to men even if the thought of being with a man makes you uncomfortable.
Hell. Yes.
Aroace, but yeah, same here.
Yup- u ever have a thing where u don't want him but you absolutely *need* him to like you?
@@genevieveohara5360 yeah kinda. Like I wanted men to find me attractive but I didn't want them to do anything about it haha
its such a big struggle omg, i stillll struggle with this, because im an african muslim lesbian its a whole different level of hell because i feel like theres that thought in the back of my head thats telling me i should like men to please people. it is such a discomfort constantlyyy for me
The part where she explains that we do want to be desired (at least some of us), just by people who see us as human beings was just the perfect response to people saying "women say it's creepy when a guy catcalls... unless the guy is hot". That kind of thinking pisses me off so much. Like, do you think I know what my catcallers and street harassers look like?? I don't even look at them, I'm actively trying to ignore them...
@@jakee5059 Turns out, as I'm getting older I find myself receiving less and less attention from random creepy guys who are way older than me. So yeah I think you're right in that sense, and it's a relief.
1 minute in and I just wanna say I saw a tiktok of a girl explaining how she likes her hotness to be appreciated, but not when people act on it, not use it as an invitation for anything, you can look and appreciate it and admire it like you would an art piece in a museum, and just keep it moving, and I couldn't agree moreeee. I love the idea of us walking through a real life, every day museum of art and admiring different kinds of beauty. Alright back to the video lol
I think that is what is being referred to when Khadija says that she wants to be desired. It's a natural human impulse. It's the way it normally manifests itself which is the problem.
@@toomuchinformation yes I agree! I've just personally always wondered if there was a way to want that outside of the male gaze and the feminine gaze and the issues that come with both extremes and I never knew if there was a healthy way of desiring that outside of both extremes, so when I heard that girl's POV, it was the first time I've ever heard it expressed in that way and I kind of appreciated hearing it
@@sunnyskies460 It's weird but being treated like a precious object in a museum feels LESS objectifying than being treated as a normal woman.
The clue is in the word: "precious".
I agree. You can like the look of someone, admire them from afar and then move on
Interesting idea and entirely possible if people had no sex drive. But the human race would probably come to an end because no one is "acting on it".
Oh my word this is so accurate. "Men not being interested in who you are but rather being fixated on your body." I've felt this a lot lately. I have a traditionally model-type physic - tall and slim. I've noticed the men that talk to me and ask for my number are only interested in gaining access to my body. Some men look at me like they want to eat me. It's baffling how unaware these men are of what they are doing because some of them will verbalize their desire to control and have access to my body within 5 mins of talking to me. They are convinced they like me which is weird
Of course they don’t like YOU. They like what you have to OFFER.
@@rejectionisprotection4448 more like they like what they think they can take.
Of course. The men that approach women is a very small %.
Most spend their whole life without approaching a woman
@@DarkeCrimson And that too.
Is this not the essence of female selection too ? Hyoergamy and picking males who can provide and protect they essentially pick the male mate who can offer them the best deal . In terms of dating men subject women to a standard as do women to men do you think that queue of women outside a Harry styles concert Care about him on a personal level yet will drop their panties in heart beat not necessarily because of who he is but what he is the fame the social status and wealth which women are naturally attracted. Women rarely like men for men but what for what they can provide y’all are just as bad rather than bashing either why don’t we come to concensus and try help each other . I’m not sure if male gaze is a biological or a social construct or both but I sincerely doubt out cave men ancestors were running around worrying about love mating is essentially for survival men look at the feminine body and subconsciously equate to child bearing and rearing ie the wide hips for child birth and breasts for child feeding . Women by virtue of being the weaker sex looked to men for protection and by virtue of being pregnant needed to be provided for so clearly they use men for that they have to offer too get off your sexist shit you women just as bad lol
There is a french movie called "la femme défendue" (the banned woman) that is all filmed as the POV of the man that tries to seduce a woman. You never see the masculine character (except in a window reflect once ?) because his eyes are litterally the camera. And it's interesting to me because that's the epitomy of the concept of male gaze in that the camera is always assumed to be neutral, therefore to be male (since masculinity is considered as the default). The woman is not shown in a sexy way, but just because she is being looked at, makes her an object of desire. To me the male gaze is not about the content of the male desire (sexy or modest or anything), but the assumption that this gaze it is neutral and therefore not questionnable. Any gender norm can be included in the male gaze because the desired gender norm is always the gender norm a man is attracted to. And that's why gender is a mess it's all contradictory injunction because "the male" is actually "what a man in this instant wants" so a woman must be sexy but also modest but also powerful but also submissive because she needs to conform to what a man will mant but guess what, men want different things. And instead of considering that people are different and you can be free, the category of desire just builds up of contradictory contents and become impossible to read because it makes no sense but it makes no sense because it is defined by power and not by people.
Hmmmmmmm
You hit the nail on the head with the modesty, sexy, powerful and submissive object of desire. This is what most men seek in todays modern world and they expect a perfect balance of all of these traits.
Should she deviate too much to one side, the devaluation and shaming begins for the woman. It is most insidious in marriages where women are expected to take on more and maintain this balanced image of perfection. While the men get comfortable when it comes to their own desirability and focus solely on providing .
Damn this is the best comment I've read in a minute.. whatever the male gaze looks upon is viewed as an object to be used and benefited from. It is a very capitalistic lens of seeing the world that probably stems from a hunter/provider/primal mindset that still has a chokehold on the collective entity we call masculinity.
I used to weigh 96 pounds - because I was sick and they couldn't figure out why. Then they did and suddenly my weight ballooned up. I love looking this way but I definitely HAVE noticed how much less attention I receive from random when I walk down the street. Healthy isn't attractive, which is wild to me
healthy isn't attractive because healthy can't be easily beaten into submission. they're scared that you're not as physically vulnerable as you'd be underweight. it's all about power for men.
@@nat-coffeebat i do think that is true for some men (probably mostly subconsciously), but i think it is also the power of media curating beauty standards through porn and other male-gaze centred media (which is almost all of it). this media shows men what they SHOULD be attracted to, even if they wouldn't be otherwise. men also create a culture within their circles of shaming other men who find women-passing people outside of the norm attractive, this men who do like unconventionally attractive women-passing people stay quite about it.
examples like "chubby chaser" and other derogatory terms are examples of this.
^ i concur. This is my theory as to why cis straight hetero men never openly admit that they're attracted to women with bigger bodies than themselves. And I'm not talking about just being fat but also having a proportionately bigger body than themselves.
@@nat-coffeebat I'm a man and never have I looked at a skinny girl and went "yeah she looks so easy to beat into submission. Hot"
@@DoomShrm literally not how it works? also just because u personally don't do it doesn't mean that other men don't. Like, come on! we know all the kinds of sick disgusting shit u say about women when there's only males in the room, don't act the fool.
“You are not desirable; and because of that, Why are you even here” this. This is exactly Why my classmates bullied me in middle school.
I was born a pretty child and got harassed because of it by my male classmates in elementary school. I was so pissed I prayed god to make me ugly Lmao. I grew up to be an ugly teenager. Bullied because of it. developed ED. Never fully recovered. Never trusted men enough to be in a relationship 🎉
“You are not desirable; and because of that, Why are you even here" hits pretty hard as I feel like this almost always when at work, this is why I don't feel confident enough to speak up during meetings and so on. Ugh.
So sorry for your experiences too, this sucks :(
Damn that's tough. I hope you are doing better
In my experience, the lonelieness and self hate doesn't go away no matter how much closer you get to fitting into conventional standards of attractiveness.
If anything you feel the loneliness and self hate more intensely, because it's like yes...I'm exactly what everyone wants now but I'm not even me anymore.
Realizing you've sacrificed yourself just for the filmsy approval of others is such a nauseating and violating feeling.
Omg 😲 this one hit the nail in the damn coffin. This is exactly what I'm unpacking how to undo currently.
I've noticed that a lot of women claim to struggle with beauty standards yet these same women have little to no trouble attracting men. Women with dozens of matches on dating apps are depressed because they don't look better than Beyonce or Margot Robbie.
"Are you saying you like male attention? What kind of non-binary degenerate feminist are you!?" 🤣😭 I FELT THIS!!
Great episode. Excited for the rest of Season 2 of YCACYM 😁
I could say the exact same thing to myself 😂
For me the peak of the male gaze is Megan Fox’s character in the Transformers franchise. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a very sapphic transfemme so I admire Megan Fox’s beauty. That being said, never been a fan of objectification. I find that personality matters just as much (if not more) when it comes to attraction.
I love to contrast Megan Fox in Transformers (male gaze) to Megan Fox in Jennifer's Body (female gaze). The difference is fascinating
Yep, I remember internalizing everything every man said about her when I was in middle school
@Sappho As a big big Transformers fan I'd like to add to the point if Ellis, that Transformers is a franchise about giant robots. They are the main characters, a basically sexless species. But the movie deliberately asserts the sexuality of het masculinity at the forefront of it.
It was so blatant in that scene that it actually made many cis het men realize and acknowledge the male gaze for what it is. Now how they decide to think about it is another thing.
I was just thinking about that scene while watching this :0
Yes! I was looking for this comment
I honestly resonate so deeply with most if not all of this video. As a child I was fat and dark skinned and living in a predominantly black country, I faced so much colorism. I was told that I was ugly, undesirable, fat etc. Then one day, I filled in my hips became “thick” (I put that in quotes because I’m still pretty fat, just that most of it is placed in a way that is deemed attractive by modern society.) All of a sudden I was an object of desire. I suddenly became “attractive” to the same people that were hell bent on convincing me that I would never be desirable.
Then we flip the coin to where I’m “attractive” and I deal with sexual harassment on an almost daily basis. Where I’m groped and harassed by men but then because I’m also fat, there is also the belief that no man could and would ever be attracted to me.
I don’t know if that makes any sense😂
It does 💕
It makes sense. 🤗
Aw, man that's awful :,( I hope things go better for you soon
Man that's some bad stuff.
I've know I'm a lesbian since I'm 13yo. Not caring about what boys/men thought of me for most of my life is probably the single best thing for my self esteem and overall development as a person. Honestly.
I am not a lesbian, but I also grew up not caring (so much) about what men think about me. I think this is because I was "ugly" and just invisible to men. Then, at my 20yo, I've discovering men attention and now I am always worrying about to be attractive to them. Thats hurts a lot because I always feel like I am not good enough.
man, I've identified openly as ace/aro since I was 12 and yet I still get terrified of how I look because of men who try asking me out as well as women who say mean $h!t behind my back often, it probably still depends on experience.
Sometimes, being a woman feels like you're in a war zone. I remember one occurrence when I was 18/19; I was waiting to go the bathroom at the beach, and I saw this guy filming me from the entryway of the men's bathroom. I was wearing a bikini and automatically my body froze and I felt so violated. Another time, when I was 16/17, my friend and I were standing at the counter of a pizza place, and this guy was recording/taking pictures of our butts while we were ordering. It's like--I can't even be safe at the beach or grabbing pizza because there are men out there who simply see you as an object of sex for their own pleasure. The worst part is, I feel like I've experienced more sexual harassment as a teenager than as an adult. It's upsetting, and I know that it is bigger than just men themselves. This is an issue with our society as a whole--it's built on it.
These were also men who were like 20-30 years older than me at the time
@@ImaniKhadijah bro at least you were post pubescent(16 and up),not saying it is right at all but i've had more of those experiences when i was 13,14 than when i was 17,18,19... It is so sad :////
Oh gosh Khadija I feel you. Men were talking to my girlfriends complimenting them and sometimes even in a disrespectful way but they were at leas aknowledging them. I mostly had white friends and they were not even thinking about me as a woman... I litterally felt like a secondaire charachter in my own life. It was partly due to my blackness
you're so right. womanhood is gatekept by whiteness and black afab people get ungendered and desirability gets complex
One of the reasons I like non-binary
@@KhadijaMbowe Hi, I was a little confused by your reply here. Are you saying that one of the reasons you prefer the label of non-binary is because it better reflects how other people view you and treat you?
Obviously no stress if you don't have the time, energy or inclination to explain
So basically what's going on here is that men want X, you girls internalized X. Great that's how it should be.
Because you know what ? We also internalized what you girls like, that's why we're so stressed about having good finances and being physically fit.
That's what I've been suffering through ever since I fell in love with this awesome girl. And guess what ? She's also self conscious about appealing to me, even told me jokingly that she needs good finances to stay beautiful like I want her. Even though I keep telling her she's fine the way she is, she knows that putting the effort into it is key. That's the ambivalence, each party needs to put in the effort while still being reassured that it isn't necessary, because that allows for the existence of romance and not just cold insensitive natural selection.
Moreover I think anyone who tries to go against this hard like feminists will ultimatey end up unhappy or feeling lacking.
Also don't even start with the racism, that is pathetic. Even as a black guy who's interested in a black girl btw, that is pathetic.
People have sexual preferences, deal with it. You're so quick to blabla on about LGBT whatever but when people got preferences that you don't like it's all different all of a sudden.
You can miss me with that nonsense.
As far as male/women friendships go, I genuinely don't know how to bridge that gap on a societal level. There's so little platonic interaction between the sexes at this point that any attempt to make friends is all but certain to be misinterpreted as romantic interest. Women will be guarded around approaching men even if they really lean into the 'just want to be friends' angle because so many men will do whatever they have to to get an 'in' with a potential partner. And men are absolutely going to see any approaching woman as romantically interested because they get zero platonic interest from women normally. For many men non-romantic interpersonal interest from women is genuinely unimaginable. Because of how few inter-sex friendships there are, it's really difficult to form inter-sec friendships. You know what I'm saying, I don't need to exposit this fking circle to you. And the trends feeding that are only getting worse.
(Possible engrish disclaimer) I feel like Gen Z is a little bit better about platonic friendships or am i just wrong? Because this needs to change.
I'm a guy in his mid to late 20's and It's f*cked up cause when i was a teenager there was a period of my life where i was mocked and belittled for just wanting platonic relationships by both guys and girls. Like, everyone had a twisted sense of relationship.
Once i didn't tried to have sex with a girl when we were alone and she started telling to everyone i was gay, not that i really cared, i just found that annoying. I got many offensive remarks by everyone about how i wasn't trying to have sex despite being black. Some girl friends would disappear the moment they had boyfriend (just being clear i'm not blaming them i'm pointing out the weird social dynamics) and dudes would tell me how little value you had to girl if you weren't worthy of being a boyfriend and how shameful it was to be that kind of guy, that it was a matter of time before i would fall in love and how frustrated i would become. I had men and women 20 yrs my senior telling me that kind of friendship were ephemeral and impossible. The whole experience was just too frustrating and confusing for a young teenager. I tried to "correct myselft" but i thankfully failed.
My reaction was being annoyed, disappointed, ending/starting other friendships but deep inside i felt like something was very wrong with me.
Later i had a slightly younger friend that went full red pill and started hating/insulting women because of similar experiences and i felt completly powerless cause i didn't had an understanding of the phenomena at the time. That's when i understood i wasn't the weird one but that realisation didn't came with a feeling of relief.
@@kiwiblastnrg795 Yeah that's all accurate and relatable. Gen Z is a little better about this, but not that much. I've honestly got no clue how we can fix this on an individual or societal level.
Not sure if I agree with you. What’s your evidence that platonic friendships between men and women are on the decline? Around me it’s the norm
@@schmules101 to be honest imo I think it’s not on the decline all of a sudden, I think it’s always been in a shallow area. I think it’s because people (female or male) are always socially separated since birth, so i guess some just find it hard to recognize friendship instead of sexual relations.
Yeah. I love my male friends, but I feel so much more comfortable with my *gay* male friends than the hets - simply because I'm saphic and always walking on eggshells as to NOT attract romantic attention from them in any capacity. When there's no such possibility, it becomes a lot easier to trust
And there's no true intimacy without trust
I don’t know if this falls under this topic, but every time I thought I was building a genuine friendship with a male, it quickly dissolved and they would just disappear, stop talking to me, stop initiating things with me such as hanging out or doing things together.. The only conclusion I could draw from these experiences is that these guys realized they couldn’t have access to me in the romantic or sexual ways they desired therefore I was disposable to them. It’s definitely hurt my feelings more than I’d like to say and has left me quite jaded in regards to having friendships with men. It sucks to be looked at, but not truly seen past your exterior. It sucks to think you are building something with someone only to realize the place from which they operate with you is solely based on their own selfish egotistical desires and it’s disgusting imo.
Stop looking for friendships with men. Only talk to man you're romantically interested in.
"a Male"
I a freshman in college. Recently I was at the grocery store with my boyfriend. We shared a shopping cart. I assume thats how the male cashier knew we were dating. My boyfriend put his things on the belt first. Then I hear cashier talking to him about me. I immediately shut his voice out, eventhough it comments were “positive”. That is my self defense because no matter how positive comments are, they are unwanted
real rude to talk about someone when they are right there like that.
nem will do the most warped things under the guise of niceness
When I was a late teen/early 20s I used to get a lot of male attention. It was equal parts validating and uncomfortable for me (I was a closeted lesbian and confused)
When I came out to myself I started dressing more masc and cut all my hair off as I was figuring myself out. The male attention completely disappeared.
Surface thoughts: "oh thank god I don't have to deal with that any more"
Deeper thoughts: "Hey, where'd my validation go?"
Now that I'm more comfortable with myself, I like switching it up between masc and fem depending on my mood. Even though i switch it up pretty often, I noticed recently that when I'm hanging out with male friends and I'm the only woman I STILL habitually dress fem more often than when it's a mixed group or only women 🤔🤔🤔
This is interesting
What I've gathered from this video and this whole thread is that most women don't really know what they want (never satisfied)
I think the key to not being affected by the male gaze is having a supportive family that want the girls in the family to be independent, and don't pressure them about relationships and reproduction. And also really instill in them the importance of friendship, hobbies and being part of their community. Because if you don't need a partner for money, companionship or because you have nothing better to do, then it's easier to not care what men who aren't worth dating think.
honestly i have a hard time viewing men as actual human beings capable of real genuine feelings and empathy bc so many of them are just s3x crazed monsters. like their whole entire lives revolves around s3x and doing anything/everything possible to get it. im at the point where i honestly don’t think there is a such thing as a “good man”, i think all of them are horrible by nature and some just hide it better than others. with that being said, i see why nowadays so many women are choosing to stay single forever and not date anymore. dealing with men just isn’t worth it.
I'm a man, and I get you.
I don't take offense to anything you said, and I agree.
Whatever your choices are about that I hope you'll have a wonderful life.
I totally agree plus they are extremely dangerous to be around you just feel intense anxiety ariund them they are scary
@@cortexavery1324 wow what a sad little Thing you are
I don't think it is a great idea to essentialize an evil into half of the population
I'm convinced if we as a species didn't find faces attractive we would rarely see a womens face. We would rarely know her, but because women having pretty faces is valued then there's a reason to show her.
This thought is horrifying thanks
How do penguins do it lol🐧🐧
Wow this is so scary but well put omg just so accurate to the painful experience of being a woman in this world
I passed as a boy when I was a teen, due to a flat chest and my alternative way of dressing. I've never had "desirable traits," but was still molested as a child and harassed/propositioned by strangers in public. I didn't understand back then that part of the harassment was because some men are more aggressive toward women who don't conform to the ideals - as if it's our fault we are at the same time more accessible (because we're not conventionally "hot) but don't offer the man the possibility of making other men envious. It's not just about how likely we are to cause arousal, but also what our appearances say about the person being "seen with" us. This goes for women as well. Celebrity women don't choose homely or plain partners because the perception for people with money and fame of either binary sex is that "they can pick the best" and the best is always what is hardest to attain. I keep claiming I don't care if people consider me attractive, but it's a lie. Sometimes, "it would be nice," you know? : D
"What kind of nonbinary degenerate feminist are you?" "A confused one" truly the most relatable opening minute of a video ever
As a dark skinned black femme who was raised in upstate New York surrounded by snow and snow complexion adjacent people I was BeWiLdErEd when I moved to South Florida and found all the other Haitian people. I was 19 queer as the day is long and hiding in store aisles because I went from being able to wear literally anything I wanted without a blink from anyone to be followed. I still Im startled when I’m in predominantly black places and can’t move around with the level of sexual invisibility that I honestly really enjoyed in New England. I’m grey sexual and have never ever enjoyed the male gaze. It has always felt dangerous and terrifying. I do prefer to live in predominantly black spaces and hate that I know whenever I see black men I have to be on guard. It’s one of the saddest realities for 9/10 times whenever I’m right and I’m harassed by them.
I honestly prefer the down right passive aggressive racist refusal admit they’re attracted to me then secret hyper fetishization I get from white men. At least then I was walk to the store and get some chips in peace.
Well that’s completely understandable why a woman who is not attracted to men wouldn’t want attention from men but a woman who desires to be with a man would obviously want to be desirable to men
I definitely can relate to Khadija's experience about being a dark-skinned black girl in a mostly white school and feeling invisible. That was my experience through high school and college. Definitely affected my self worth. And when you are open about your experiences, sometimes you get gaslit. People say you aren't approachable or men are just intimidated. Honestly, sometimes the beauty standards of community you live in, are the complete opposite of you. Either way, what other people think of your looks really has nothing to do with you, and it's really in our best interest not to internalize them. As women we can never win. We're either too skinny, or not skinny enough. Too curvy, and not curvy in the right places. Fake hair, but then only certain types of natural hair are accepted. Too plain, or too dolled up. Self acceptance is easier said than done, but no amount of changing the physical can sustainably make you feel good about yourself
A friend and I discussed how, after being sexually assaulted/groomed as children, the clothes we were wearing at that time felt “slutty”. We saw other women wearing those clothes and thought they were dressed inappropriately because what we’d been wearing when we were sexualized was no longer “safe” clothing.
Many years ago, I had a flatmate who put up a poster of some anarchist art. It had a face of Medusa, her expression twisted in rage or defiance, and the quote: "beauty must be defined as WHAT WE ARE, or the concept itself is our enemy". I didn't much like it; I thought it was trying a bit hard, and to be honest, I didn't really get it. But it stuck with me. Years later, I remember it word for word, and I think it's pretty cool, actually. Yes, beauty standards exist, and they are oppressive, and it's cruel to tell people that we are all equally attractive, because it's misleading... and yet... that poster stays with me. Beauty must be what we already have, what we are, or else it can only be oppressive. Like all political structures, constructs, unspoken agreements or social pacts, it should be interrogated, examined critically, and, if it doesn't serve a purpose, disposed of. One day, I hope - probably in the far, far future - we will all be truly liberated - including from the tyranny of beauty. EDIT: the full quote is more positive: "to see beauty is to learn the private language of meaning which is another's life - to recognize and relish what is. beauty must be defined as what we are, or else the concept itself is our enemy. why languish in the shadow of a standard we cannot personify, an ideal we cannot live?"
bonus: you can find the poster by searching the quotation, and if you poke around, you'll soon find a downloadable large-resolution image over at CrimethInc 🥰🏴
Thank you!!!
@@KhadijaMbowe the full quote is more positive: "to see beauty is to learn the private language of meaning which is another's life - to recognize and relish what is. beauty must be defined as what we are, or else the concept itself is our enemy. why languish in the shadow of a standard we cannot personify, an ideal we cannot live?"
When I was a kid, I felt a certain relief in not being the "pretty girl", because it meant that I could play with boys and not be harassed by them. I became beautiful and desirable when I was harassed by boys and men and had some assholes trying to gaslight and abuse me. Then I became the bitch for not allowing them to get away with things and not submiting and calling out their bs. I must say, I love being the bitch. Of course the male gaze still gets me sometimes and it honestly makes me angry to know so many of my experiences being socialized as a girl (I'm non-binary) were somehow shaped by the male gaze while knowing that any atempt of thinking what my experience with girlhood would be like without the male gaze is not really productive - I can only move forward and think and do things from here on out.
It feels so incredibly refreshing to hear others talk about this experience, it’s good to know that other people recognize and go through this too
@@jakee5059 I think it would be good to do some research! If you mean it’s wrong for women to objectify men, yes and it’s wrong for anyone to do that to anyone
I think the term is relatively new but the “female gaze” isn’t just the “male gaze” with the genders reversed
I think it’s very important we use the right language for these things, because not doing could lead to misunderstandings ☺️ hope this was helpful
*slaps thumbnail* this video essay can hold so many perspectives 😮💨 this have my mental hamster spinning in the wheel that is my cranium. Another Khadija classic ❤💕
The saddest about this 'you have to be ladylike' thing is that even when I am alone and I mess something up, or I fart or burp or do anything that would be deemed as "not feminine", I say sorry. I literally excuse myself for no one just because I feel like I have to be "polite and kind". Same for when I sleep, put on make-up, sit in a chair, eat something....the list goes on. Yikes. Where did it go wrong? When did I start living my life completely for other people, specifically men? oh gosh
whenever you want to - but you will also deal with the fact you will be seen as less desirable
and you don't want that, because being desired and getting validation feels good
why can men do all these things with no problem? Because they are not desired to begin with
@@mongrel1137 they are on top of the Social hierarchy and they are the ones calling the shots
@@mongrel1137 Men are socially considered desirable for different traits than women, including being dominant, unapologetic, witty and in control
@@tfkdandsvkc most men aren't calling any shots. Most men are average
Another perspective to explore: how it affects women’s perceptions of other women.
Women also are guilty of viewing other women and men this way too. When I leveled up my dating profile, it wasn’t just men who responded more positively to me. Women did too. All of a sudden they were reaching out to me first! Interested in meeting up! Before it had been dead silence. Women are shallow too.
I believe you
i love this format where you include conversations you had with others so much. the slight differences in perspective and extra bits of nuance each person adds is so great
I recently felt depressed that I wasn’t pretty or desirable enough because I wasn’t “the favorite” at a job I worked at because I looked and came across as “too different,” and that I was rejected and left out in social circles for “not being pretty enough.” This drove me to having really bad spending habits to push myself to prove that I’m NOT ugly, inferior, or too different, or it made my motivation to like beauty, fashion, and dressing up as a way to prove people wrong.
Omgg i feel the same
Thank you for sharing this! Because I shared this experience and like I hate that I did it now that I’m learning to accept who I am AS IS yet it still bothers me when I’m still excluded from those social groups
@khadijambowe needs to talk about this in depth i feel your an experience to the core because I have recently become a Shopaholic and there's a huge pile of clothes and makeup in my house that I'm so disgusted by because I'm trying to fit in and look pretty and of which no one is even caring it's like such a huge waste of energy so depressing
This video definitely hit home. I felt so undesirable all my teenage life that I tried to be over feminine and sexual to compensate. Because I internalized that my value depended on how much I would attract men, I would go straight to being sexual to the point of doing sexual practices that I didn’t even want just so I could reassure myself that I was desirable.
Omg, this super resonates with me. I grew up dark skinned and fat, and all I would hear from boys growing up is how unattractive and undesirable I was. I was also, I suspect, neurodivergent, so I didn’t really have the option of working on my personality to make up for my looks. I was screwed every which way. The constant rejection made me heavily internalize the male gaze, and my self-esteem completely reflected how horribly I was treated by my peers. I became my own worst critic, trying to say all the insulting things my bullies would say to me before they did, so it would hurt less.
I think now as an adult, I’ve done an ok job at separating my worth from desirability, but what I’m still most susceptible to is people saying out loud that I’m undesirable, actively belittling me and whatnot.
I’m sorry you were put through that love ❤. Your worth is intrinsic ❤❤ And you are beautiful ❤❤❤
@t same
Wow you have my exact life experience how did you overcome
Bringing the middle-aged perspective lol I'm a 40-something cis woman.
I used to get some cat calls, nothing too insistent or scary so I appreciated them. As I got older and gained weight, they went away (except the two times I was pregnant, I'm not gonna analyse that cause I don't get it). This bothered me in my late twenties, but it eventually stopped bothering me in my mid 30s as two things happened: a diminishing of the amount my self-worth is tied to how others see me; a better appreciation of the gaze of people who know me over the gaze of strangers.
I get some nice comments from friends or co-workers that give me a bit of a boost in my self-esteem once in a while and that's all the male gaze I want or can handle.
Just talking looks here, I whistle and curse like a sailor, was never gonna get a husband or kids like that, guess what...
As a trans guy early in his transition I also started to see how men and women treated me differently as I presented more masculine in public. Men, if they perceived me as a woman, they saw me as undesirable because I wasn’t emphasizing my chest and hips, or was wearing shorts with unshaven legs and wasn’t using makeup. If seen as a guy I was just acknowledged, or seen as weird for my use of male fashion and height. I’ve also become less stared at, or I’m given less attention, which kinda made me question my gender lol but I realized I just liked knowing that I had the attention of people for how I presented myself, rather than I wanted to be perceived as a woman.
And funnily enough I’m seen as less threatening by men or less intimidating as I’m not perceived as a potential partner, so more approach me and speak casually without looking at my chest or legs, and/or stuttering or showing signs of being nervous in their body language, thanks to not being perceived as a potential partner. Tho I do feel judgmental looks by older people than me whenever they see me because I often pass as a butch woman or masculine woman and of course some think I’m a lesbian because of my appearance, which is quite telling on their part.
And something I’ve noticed recently is that whenever I have a female Uber driver, and they perceive me as a guy, I feel that they become tense or less amiable than when they perceive me as a woman, which is very understandable and makes me feel bad, as I don’t want them to feel threaten by me.
It’s very interesting how my presentation changed how people treat me. Which honestly sucks sometimes because I get less compliments and less affirmative looks about how I look, which I put a lot of attention to because I love fashion. And I’m seen as weird, not just shy or quiet as I did when I was seen as a feminine girl.
But thanks a lot for making this video! I’ve been sitting on these observations for quite some time now, and I’m glad someone feels the same or experiences something similar as I do.
yeah if you're gonna present as a man by default you're gonna be more invisible and when you are visible you will perceived as more threatening, especially by women. Villainization is up next.
Yeah being a guy means you appreciate the compliment from the old lady from the grocery store that liked your tie from 5 years ago because you get no compliments on the daily or always being extra cautious when you interact with women that aren't family because you don't want them to be afraid of you.
@@neptuneamaru5649 I can def relate to the last part. A few guys I js started avoiding cuz they thought I was 'creepy' when I was js trying to be nice and I don't wanna bother them :>
Great video! I wanted to bring up something you didn't mention directly about how trying to look desirable with an "undesirable" body results in negative male attention/harassment. I've always been overweight (more so as I've gotten older) and have never gotten catcalled. But I put on some skimpy clothes just to run to the store in July and a man felt the need to tell me "jesus christ put some clothes on" which has made me paranoid ever since about how much skin I can show. I want to feel desirable, but there's this insidious thought that I'll disgust men with my body if they can see too much of it. It sucks going from comfortable in public spaces to constantly watching for male disapproval just because I put on a crop top.
Sorry that happened to you; he rude. Wear whatever the eff you want
I wish we could see said man who felt the need to come up to a random young women and try to shame her for a crop top lol
I'm so sorry you had to experience that, I'm constantly paranoid about men honing in on my cellulite and telling me the same thing. It's bizarre, because seeing a woman with cellulite like mine would actually make me really happy lol
do you think a fat male in skimpy clothes would be viewed differently?
@@mongrel1137 If someone harassed a fat male in skimpy clothes, they rude too
Gotdamn i have so many thoughts about this as a man. It’s one of the biggest struggles of my whole life. I’m going to share just a couple things I think are really important to include from a male perspective.
1. The Male Gaze doesn’t represent real men any more than the object of the Male Gaze represents real women. When women say they have “internalized” the Male Gaze, I relate very strongly to that. What I find desirable is not at all synonymous with the standards applied by Male Gaze, although there’s certainly overlap and cross-influence and sometimes I can’t tell which is which. Just like how women can feel pressured to present themselves a certain way that contradicts their self-perception, men feel pressured to express preferences for objects of desire that contradicts their actual desires.
2. Lots of women here saying how they share the confusion of both wanting to be desired but hating the negative attention that often comes with it. I can tell you all my adult life I’ve been very confused by both wanting to respect women’s safety and privacy and humanity, and also being helplessly attracted to women as sexual objects. Given the overall tenor of relations between men and women today, I’ve never figured out a healthy way to balance being true to my feelings and being honest about what I desire with being a safe and reliable friend, neighbor, coworker, etc to women. I’ve always prioritized the latter, and the former eats at me all the time. Im sure there’s a way to do it but for me it’s a huge struggle. And I 100% blame the patriarchy for how I was brought up, not women. But what i do ask of women is to not view actual men’s desires only through the Male Gaze. It’s really hard to connect with people who either ignore my sexuality entirely or equate it with the pure manifestation of patriarchal evil. I know y’all know we’re people. Take care of yourselves first, but please try to see what’s past the surface when you engage with a man, when you can afford to.
3. Wanting to be seen and desired is not at all weird. Men want to be desired too. We just don’t talk about it because a) we are taught implicitly that women are beneath us and we’re not supposed to really care what they think, and b) most of us have no reference point for the type of desirability women generally feel, in a positive or negative sense. It’s a meme at this point for men to complain about not getting compliments and savoring them for decades when we do, and often the response is, “maybe if you compliment your boys more they would compliment you.” Sure compliments are nice. But what is really missing there is the feeling of being desired. Again, this is not something I’m blaming women for. All I can say is, if you desire a man, and you feel safe to do so, please try to let him know. Because he almost certainly doesn’t, and might not even be able to entertain the thought.
Excellent summary 👌
What a load of crap. Speak for yourself. If you were taught that women were beneath you then say that. Because I'm a man and I was always taught that women were equal.
I love you for this type of insight. Point #2… whew.
Always wondered how men thought abt being good neighbours to their women neighbours, without being creepy, menacing, or weird… because for the women who think abt that…
it’s like: yeah, not getting this apartment, because my male neighbours keeps on looking at me in an unsettling way.
No. 1. Yes! When she asked for 3 words to describe the "Male Gaze", I was not expecting the types of responses they gave. I don't localize it to men but see it as a tool to reinforce heteronormative conformity to a gender binary through male approval. Many of my male friends say exactly the same thing you say about not necessarily being attracted to the ideals of the "Male Gaze". I wonder if you talk to your make friends about this because it's often what I think and ask my friends. Like if all men were able to talk to other men about the "Male Gaze" and how you don't necessarily identify with it, because this is truly one of the ways patriarchy hurts men and is partially responsible for a lot of incels who don't interrogate their true desires but become resentful when they can't attract a stereotypical woman who fits the "Male Gaze" standards.
Oh 100% to the 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' title card. I'm enby and I love playing dress up, but damn when I decide to drag it up in ultra femme outfits and makeup it makes me feel so confused, like "who am I doing this for?" because of decades of being told that my number one priority was to get a husband (I was afab if that wasn't clear). Those messages go deep!
Maybe you’re just doing it for yourself? Lol
I feel this so much. I'm also afab and enby and as I got older I started dressing more feminine...I used to ask myself if I was doing it to be desirable and I sorta think I was at times. But, I've decided that that's not the end of the world. And I do think you can do it for yourself in the sense of wanting to feel pretty even if you're alone. The socialization is still there but I honestly think it's really hard to avoid. Idk I'm rambling sorry!
Oh yeah, I am doing it for myself, I want to get to the point where I can look in a mirror and feel my femme fantasy - but my point was more about the *seed of doubt* that was planted years ago due to being taught that my value would only ever come from how men viewed me. Its an ingoing process of pulling those threads apart, figuring out what I've been doing up to this point (and why), and what I'm going to do going forward.
The feeling of men's eyes watching you as you enter a space is an energy that cannot be put into words. The male gaze is now a separate body.
i was never really concerned with looking good for guys, ive always dressed for me and what i like, but i still feel like the male gaze and desire to fit into it really does influence a lot of the things i do and wear, even if just subconsciously. it's really troubling to be completely honest, but i consider myself lucky for even feeling comfortable in my skin in the first place
As a person of colour growing up in predominantly white spaces, I remember that feeling of intense self loathing. Feeling like I will never be beautiful or desirable because all my friends (who were more slim and white) received all the attention.
As I got older and eventually started dating men I performed my sexuality and constantly sought validation from them. Because I so desperately wanted to be seen by men. I think it also goes hand in hand with feeling like you have to be attracted to men (particularly in the AFAB sense).
Thanks for the awesome content 🌺
The last bit talking about being non-binary and dressing in hyperfem clothes feeling like drag was SO HELLA RELATABLE OMFG.
I have a friend who had the exact same experience while he was still in the closet. He said in a lot of ways he found the hyper feminine looks easier because they felt like drag or a costume.
This so needed . I'm 54 and still struggling with looking how I want to look with out worrying if it is ATTRACTIVE. My mother still makes those comments to me and my 23 yr old. I try to explain. Thankfully my 23 yr old is aware and much farther alo g than I am.
I was also made to feel ugly and invisible as a kid. It wasn't until college that I felt and was treated as attractive. I didn't know how to handle it and made mistakes believing if someone found me attractive then they liked me
Do u still feel attractive? Since i turned 29 men dont find me attractive unless they are younger or much older than me. 36 year olds like my bf find me less attractive
@@gregorie3752 I feel ok about my looks. I have never been seen as very attractive, maybe cute, safe to talk to, not intimidating. So, even though I am older and heavier, I still get about the same reaction to my looks
realizing i’m a lesbian has made me unpack my internalized male gaze and it makes me far more aware of just how men treat and feel about me. they take my kindness as romantic interest and when i don’t dress in a hyper feminine way they often leave me tf alone. it also made me realize how unhappy i was while still performing for men. lesbianism is not a solution, but it has made me be able to see so many things i could not see when i still thought i wanted to possibly be with a man.
I've been thinking about this topic so much lately.... I'm asexual so I've lived life pretty unbothered about relationships or the desire to be "attractive". Wanting to be desired has never been something I've cared about and I tend to present more masculinely because that's how I feel comfortable. However, I've developed a crush on a dude recently who like... Pays attention to me in a very not creepy way, and it feels... Good? We're getting closer as friends which is great and I'd be ok if doesn't go farther than that, but it also hurts to know that he may never see me as a potential romantic interest if I continue to "be myself" and present the way I do. I went on a whole spiral and questioned whether my persistence in dressing more masculinely made me a "femcel" and whether I ought to "take care of myself" and conform to femme presentation if I ever wanted to have a chance at a romantic relationship, not only with this guy, but with anyone. Being ace and wanting a relationship is a WHOLE other thing and adds a new layer of complexity to it... Wanting to be feminine is very uncharacteristic for me, but it shows me how strong the cultural influence of this is that I genuinely considered conforming for like... and hour.
Thank you for your vulnerability and for talking about this and presenting your thoughts in such a clear, thoughtful, and entertaining way.
i am a lesbian with chronic pain issues but i notice every time i flare i begin to grow more vain and hyperfocused on my appearance, as if beauty is the redemption for pain
That's so interesting. And also really poetic
I spent years fighting (appearance based) gender norms and trying to put men off , then ye realise they STILL see you as an object/inferior and now I present very girly because i just like it. I hate the constant paranoia that came from those experiences though.
at least you get people who desire you
@@mongrel1137 missed the point entirely, well done!
Being attractive is scaryyy , I told this one person how I was harassed and they just brushed it off like it didn’t affect me. They told me “well you are sexy” like whattttt
As someone who is considered desirable, a "preference", and often exoticized...you're not missing much ladies. It's not all its cracked up to be, and mostly you'll attract a lot of very unwanted attention from very undesirable men. It's creepy, gross, and objectifying.
Thank you. Having been fat most of my life; I sometimes don't even feel like a woman because desirability is seen as womanhood.
By separating men on desirable/undesirable you're just perpetuating the lookism that affects your "ladies"
@@davyddocarmocabral2989 you must be unattractive. Bless your heart. I didn't actually say anything about their looks, but a hit dog will always holler 🤷🏽♀️
@@CosmicEremite "I'm not calling anyone ugly" *proceeds to call me ugly as an ad hominem
@@davyddocarmocabral2989 perhaps she is referring to the energy/vibe/behavior. There are generally way more men making unsolicited comments, being aggressive, towards women than vice-versa. It has nothing to do with looks. Women are often fearful of their safety.
Honestly, not even posturing, I GENUINELY don't want male attention when I'm walking around. Maybe if I'm in a place where there are young attractive people my age (all genders) it can be nice to mutually have that moment with someone where you admire each other, but that's a really rare situation for me I guess since most of the time when I walk around I'm just in a very normal area where there are people of all ages and walks of life milling around. I remember telling my brother yesterday that I would KILL to live a day as a man, just to be invisible. At night obviously its a different story, it's terrifying as a woman but also soul crushing as a man to be the subject of someones terror. I don't think either is enviable. However the sadness men express about being 'invisible' in day to day life just baffles me. I don't WANT to be leered at, advanced upon, given 'special' (infantilising) treatment. Sometimes I wonder if I really am non binary or if I'm just sick of being so visible and want to disappear into androgyny.
No you’re not I’m the same. You get exhausted because of the expectations behind the leering and attention. And when you don’t respond often times there’s violence or reputation ruining (guy will gossip and call you a bit** or queen for icing them out). I’m bisexual, cisgender and femme presenting, not unattractive and I came to loathe it due to being put in extremely vulnerable, anxiety inducing situations way too much.
I related to the whole thing but the "disappear into androgyny" bit especially tied it together for me personally.
i really get this. a sense of security comes with it. really, i'd rather be forgotten than chance someone getting an idea while looking in my direction. i want to be left alone unless i approach, blend into the wallflowers until i've got a joke at the party. for it to be required to have my consent before thinking about me. untouchable, immaterial, safe from hands and gazes.
but i can't fade into smoke on command, can i? i like how i look, although i've no attachment to my gender other than how i relate to my oppression with women and other afab people. looking more androgynous might give me what i want, but looking as i am is what i want for myself. but that means that i can't avoid oily stares, i look feminine enough to have a target stapled on my back most of the time. last time i got catcalled i was on a date. i have never wanted to strangle someone more, but what the fuck am i mean to do?
your opinion would really quickly change once you realize that almost the entirety of the opposite gender wants nothing to do with you
this video could not have dropped at a more perfect time. firstly, i was dressed very masculine with no makeup on in cold weather today, and still got called sweetheart at the gas station. but also I've been in portland or for 6 months now, and at age 25 it's wild realizing how many men don't see women as people. it's like, i always knew that it was a good majority, but it feels like i turned the attic light on and realized how bad the infestation really is. earlier today, i told my mom about my recent breakup, and how when saying what he liked about me, he only talked about how desireable i was. and i was like, none of this is specific to me. you really know nothing about me.
you complain about being desirable, but it is a privilege
men can never experience being desired
@@mongrel1137 it's definitely a gray area, and it definitely is a privilege in its own way. but especially as a non-binary person who wants top surgery, being openly sexualized for a part of my body that i don't even want sucks.
also men are absolutely desired! but it is another gray area. like, I've spent hours fawning over men who didn't like me back. but in certain environments, my instinct is to protect myself, so i def understand what you mean.
@@gin2943 the fact you appreciate some male model or some fictional character does not actually mean anything for us real life men
99% of men will never feel desired or appreciated, even the better looking and fit ones. It's just how the genders work.
Men desire, women are desired.
@@mongrel1137 interesting. i'm gonna tap out of this conversation, but i was definitely talking about real men that i know in real life. that being said, I'm literally autistic, so most people have an easier time flirting than i do.
watching this & reading the comments is really helping me work through my own struggle. i get so hurt/distraught watching fan service anime or women sexualized in movies or if an attractive woman comes into my work and my male coworkers make stupid comments (i work in an auto shop). it feels like i’m sinking, like such an overwhelming feeling when that stuff happens that i’ve been avoiding unpacking it. i think part of it is life long resentment - 20+ yrs of anger that i’ve just started to understand. but i think it’s also insecurity, like i’m comparing myself to whatever - even over sexualized women in anime. it’s a trip.
Being seen as 'a body in pieces' is such a dehumanising experience that has featured in my life because of my cup size. The process of learning to ignore it and filter it out is HARD. I used to, and sometimes do, hide behind baggy clothes even though I knew that I really wanted to wear something low cut that day, but didn't want to have to endure the hunger of the male gaze.
You’re awesome Khadija!!
When you follow all the rules, get rewarded for it and mould yourself for the male gaze, of course you will have a problem with new voices. Also, no one is just ok with the casual cruelty.
this is such an important part! the exclusivity and scarcity aspects of the male gaze and male approval. theres a sub hierarchy and an expectation for women to compete with eachother for male approval. and being on the upside of that sub hierarchy includes becoming male identified and internally mysoginistic in order to maintain the status quo and therefore your privileges on the sub hierarchy
@@elleofhearts8471 I'm frequently on the receiving end of this behaviour you just described. I knew it was rooted in some form of insecurity but your explanation goes so much further.
i relate somewhat to the experience you described because i feel like my entire life has involved a lot of dramatically different, conflicting messages about how desirable i am to the point where trying to wrap my head around it just got too confusing. i would go from getting almost no attention or sometimes negative attention to getting a lot of positive attention, compliments, flirting, stares etc and then back again, sometimes when i did things like change my wardrobe or amount of makeup i usually wore or gained/lost weight but sometimes seemingly at random, and it just really threw me off.
nowadays i tend to expect a certain amount of positive attention, but i also have a hard time believing that people who actually express attraction to me are being honest because my past experiences of being treated as undesirable tell me not to trust that. the whole topic is just such a major bummer lol, almost makes me wish i really were invisible so i wouldn't have to think about it ever again :/
Last night I went to bed thinking about who/where I could share my feelings of being the undesirable, fat friend. As Khadija mentioned, people don't even give themselves a chance to know you if you don't fit the aesthetic and it truly is unfortunate. I am so glad for this video and this space for challenging my beliefs about how I define my value. I also agree that we are primed to be wives and we are made to feel like life is not worth living if lived alone.
I’m a 23 year old woman and I’ve never been in a relationship or even kissed anyone. I currently live in the exquisite overlap between wanting to be desired/wanting male attention but also not wanting to reciprocate. Is that fucked up? I think it’s a lil bit fucked up.
I feel the same, but I don’t think there is necessarily a problem with it.
I think there is a label under the demi umbrella for this (I don’t remember the word right now), I can’t speak for everybody but I felt better knowing there was a lot of people feeling this too!
@@anne8663 Cool! I’m ✨ sexually confused ✨ so I’m still not sure about how it interlinks with my sexuality 😅
Its liked you plucked that thought from my mind bc same girl. At least its good to know I'm not alone in these feelings.
21, and same. I’m just commenting so I can a notification if someone mentions something that might help me understand wtf I’m feeling 😅
@@bert1029 That's ok! I feel like it is like a hard puzzle with missing pieces 😅
Thank you so much fordiscussing this
My mum is narcissistic and would boasqt about being catcalled to me. She wears flamboyant eye catching clothes and gets compliments, while I was forced to carry all her bags and watch as everyone treated her in a way I knew they'd never treat me
For me, the male gaze is amplified bc of that. I hope some others out here relate.
I relate with this you ain’t alone
@@crystajewelz1069 thank you for this! ❤ wish you th best of luck
It blows my mind because I feel like women around me do it more than men. A lot of women have made comments on my small butt and breasts. It’s irritating and I don’t know why they do it. I get that I’m Black but not every Black woman has huge breast and butt.
33:17 I agree that when you put effort in you want to have that effort appreciated, it's validating to get attention but only when it's respectful and safe attention. But I think that's different from the male gaze which isn't safe and respectful; safe attention wouldn't make you feel uncomfortable, fearful or objectified.
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS HERE , I appreciate it
Throughout my childhood and adolesence, my father was the main support figure so my role models were/are either men or women with "masculine, dominant" attitudes so that male support/validation was and still is a trained support system for myself which sometimes leads misconceptions about life experiences yet overall, I get fruitful inputs. Yet in romantic relationships, as you said, there are times when we want to feel desired and interact with that gaze but when you do not train yourself to build an autonomy over the gaze that has put on you, it makes you open to manipulation in any kind. Recently, building a self confidence by owning my own gaze to myself first and then letting the gazes I want to interact with in has become a really useful method to enjoy myself as a human being and a woman.
This convo needed to happen. Thank you for it!
Love that you chose a diverse range of people to interview it gave a wide range of perspectives on the topic