Why Are There No Greek Gods In TROY 2004? Historian Reacts
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- This was a REAL sore point for loads of people who love the Iliad. Today, I will be exploring if by cutting the gods from the Trojan War you "gut" the true mythological story.
The Script: www.cinefile.bi...
To Find The Reviews I Quoted: news.bbc.co.uk/...
The Quote From Petersen About Homer Comes From: news.bbc.co.uk/...
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#Troy #TrojanWar #GreekMythology
Wait, wait, wait... are you telling me that David Benoiff, the masterful writer of seasons 7 & 8 of Game of Thrones, failed to understand the themes of the brilliant source material & produced a work with some shoddy world building? Who could possibly have guessed?!
😂😂😂😂
In my humble opinion, Wolfgang Petersen never wanted to adapt "The Iliad", he wanted to tell the story as "close" to reality as possible, how it could have happened, as if it were the founding myth, the story that Homer heard in pieces to then write 'The Iliad'. That's why I don't think the absence of the gods is a determining factor in defining the work's quality or not. It's an artistic vision, we can like it or not, but it's not wrong. I'm not saying I like the movie, it has a lot of problems, but the absence of gods is not one of them in my view.
Unfortunately he does say in a lot of interviews that his goal was to do Homer proud and to be as accurate as possible 🫠 I can’t wait to get to this part in my series hahaha
Well ...if he wanted to tell the story in a realistic way why did he put Thetis in the movie .
The kid at the first minutes of the movie tells Achilles that people claim that his mother is an immortal godeess .
And then we get to see his mother and she says that basically she knows what will happen to her son .
Achilles asks her in the Director's cut " you know this to be true mother ?"
and she replies
" I KNOW THIS "
That ...from one perspective feels supernatural .
And yes I know Thetis did know of Achille's fate in greek mythology .
But the movie wasnt really based on the source material .
@@MoAnInc And Kathleen Kennedy said she wanted to honor Lucas' Star Wars. Yet she it razed it to the ground. People often make claims that will atract audience, whether true or not. As a historian, I know you're very aware of this, just a reminder.
I couldn't agree more about Petersen's intentions, he obviously wanted to tell a story of real people, not mythological Gods and Goddesses. The film is called Troy, not the Iliad, yet the majority of the criticism levelled at it is about how it's not true to Homer's epic. The film certainly has some weak points, but not having Gods and Goddesses isn't one of them, to me at least.
The exclusion of the gods in this film has always really bothered me - how can you tell the story without Apollo sending the plague, without Hera distracting Zeus, without Diomedes fighting Ares? The gods are some of my favorite characters in this story!
I love how Diomedes scars both Ares and Aphrodite within the same day due to Athena’s manipulative guidance and Apollo finally warns him, otherwise the favorite were to meet his terrible wrath.
That is when Athena finally diminished herself and comes to her senses. So dramatic and lively.
Even Ares on the battlefield would have been operatic enough to warrant a cinematic depiction. But not this movie…
Hera gave Poseidon a good 10 seconds to rally up the Greeks.
Thank you for this. I finished high school in 2005, and I was a huge fan of Homer as well as the movie Troy around that time. That was pre-youtube, pre-social media. I did a lot of research on my own (i didnt go on to study classics) Your channel resonates so much with my younger self, its feels like time travel for me to go through these points. I remember thinking a lot about the omission of the gods back then.
Honestly I don’t know how there aren’t more adaptations of the iliad. It’s one of the biggest, if not the biggest stories of all time. They should definitely make another adaptation, although probably in the form of a series like on disney plus or something. It really is so rich in the amount of value as both an entertainment and education tool, and I think a show starting from the judgement of paris all the way to the odyssey would be brilliant. I definitely think the gods should be included though, people could draw their own metaphorical viewpoints from it if they want to
I don't think people realise that if they were to make a TV show about the trojan war, they literally have the whole script and action breakdown given to them on a silver platter. All they have to do is refine that for the screen. Every single side story and side character is given their own background and death - IT'S ALL THERE. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT. Studios just need to actually care about the story and tell it correctly because the Trojan War is a literal television goldmine!!!
@@MoAnInc It didn’t go too well last time. See the Netflix series “Troy:Fall of a City”
Netflix has a series on it
@@MoAnInc Right! Everyone wants to put their own “unique twist” on it and it always detriments the story drastically. Like theres a difference between taking slight creativities (like making patroclus and achilles explicit, showing backstories etc.) and completely changing the story, and it honestly seems like everyone goes with the latter which is heartbreaking because with the technology and films of today, it has the potential to be one of the biggest and best shows/movie series’ of all time
My theory is this. Troy is large text, but that’s not the issue. The issue is that Troy is 1. Part of a much larger epic cycle, with stories before and after it. And 2, there isn’t really any major protagonist to the book, and even if you choose one, it’s hard to choose one character who is easy to make a protagonist. Really the only Trojan characters I think could fit are Odysseus or Patroculus (let’s hope Song of Achilles is adapted).
If you make the movie with modern sensibilities in mind, then you're denying the audience the opportunity to see how ancient Greeks viewed the matter. Then they're not seeing "The Iliad," they're seeing some modern remake that's only loosely based on it. That's a disservice.
^^
Re: Cassandra. It's odd that she had the gift of prophesy but couldn't foresee the punishment for refusing Apollo!
In cast you forgot, there is the 2018 TV Series called "Troy: Fall of a City" made by BBC One and Netflix and this series has Greek Gods and Goddesses like Zeus, Hera, Artemis, Hermes, Aphrodite and Athena who are all in this series
It's interesting that some reviews of this film describe Achilles as being kind of an "atheist" because I honestly never saw him that way at all. I was convinced that his mother in the film IS the actual deity Thetis, which would make her the only Olympian that appears in the film, and that Achilles WAS a demigod, but that didn't stop him from training as hard as he possibly could to become the absolute greatest warrior of all time. And I'm also convinced that the first shot from Paris to Achilles' heel actually STRIPPED him of his invulnerability, and made it so that the follow-up shots were able to kill him.
As for Achilles' apparent blasé attitude towards the other Greek deities, which might seem like atheism to other people, I always saw as him kind of abusing his demigod status, particularly when he chops off the head of Apollo's statue. He's acting like "Relax. I'm a demigod. I can get away with saying "fuck you" to a few of the Olympians, because I know I've got ones with higher authority watching my back." However, it's a completely different story when he is talking to Briseis. When he's discussing the Gods with her, it's more like "Don't blindly follow the teachings of people who have never even MET the Gods. I HAVE. I understand them and how their minds work far better than they ever could." And I found this to be especially the case when he says "The Gods envy US. They envy us, because we're mortal. Because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful, BECAUSE we are doomed." For me, this was him explaining why the Greek Pantheon behave like such absolute dicks to the human race. Because they're literally slaves to emotions that are all too human, particularly vanity and jealousy. Vanity because they are immortal and un-aging, and jealousy for the same reasons. Being immortal and un-aging isn't all it's hyped up to be. It's actually the most boring kind of life you could ever imagine. We mortals on the other hand, feel that we have so much to do and achieve in our life, and we're never going to have enough time to do it all. At some point, our life is going to end, and we never know when that moment will be, so it makes living in the here and now that much more important. The Gods don't have that luxury, because the here and now is literally forever for them, and that thought drives them mad with jealousy.
I'd love to hear your opinion on this interpretation of mine, Erika.
A few gods were certainly present in the movie at least metaphorically. Eros and Aphrodite, for example, got involved with Paris and Helen to provide the spark to start the war. Ares used that spark along with Agamemnon's greed, Priam's prioritizing Paris's feelings over peace, Achilles' desire for glory, etc. to manifest himself mightily throughout the movie. I thought that that more metaphorical take was pretty powerful, actually, when it comes to drawing parallels between the movie and the current state of world affairs. They are implied to literally exist in the universe if the film, as well, by Achilles' words to Perseus, but are not shown as persons on screen. Today's military/"intelligence"/industrial complex could be said to metaphorically be Ares' ugly modern form, using every slightest pretense or even false flags or stuff trumped up out of thin air to take sacrifices (sometimes compulsory in the form of the draft) for himself from the general population. My comfort is that Jesus Christ is the one true God and that nothing can pluck me from his arms while Ares is only metaphorical in real life. Ares can only send me home to Jesus in Jesus' timing; he can't take me for himself or send me to hades or anywhere else.
After reading the Iliad, for me it felt like two stories. One an epic of battles around heros of the trojan war. The other, a story around gods acting like humans having a domestic family argument. I reckon someone could do the story of the iliad around just the gods, cut all (if not most) of the trojan war and you’ll get an episode of eastenders of something 😂
Hahahaha
I love your content and passion for the source material. Getting to see a fully accurate adaptation would be really cool!
The cost of production for Troy was $200 million. The first 5 seasons of Game of Thrones cost about $300 million.
At the time Troy was made I don't think it was financially viable to make it as a TV series and studios love to capitalize on what's popular in theaters.
Im just glad they made any adaptation and that they took it seriously and you can tell a lot of time and care from many talented people went into the film. It's not the accurate adaptation the content deserves but as it is I really love it as an adaptation.
We can all hope HBO picks up The Illiad tho!!!! That would be incredible 😊
I still want a Sean Bean Odyssey
‼️
Basterds....
On a more serious note, I agree with you. I love the presence of the gods in Homer's epics (& Virgil's!) but I think you're right that most of the thematic import of 'The Iliad' can survive them being removed if you do right. "Troy" did not do it right though. I think Eric Shanower's "Age of Bronze" comic book does it right. If you've not read that comic, you should as its wonderful.
Oh I’ll definitely check that out!!!
Is it really strange for ancient peoples to be atheists or agnostics? I think we too often lump them all in the true believer camp, whereas a lot of them probably 'believe' and observed the rites out of peer pressure and inertia.
At the face of death, it makes total sense to me that a general would ask 'how many battalions does Apollo command?'. Even for true believers, it's pretty clear in Greek myth and ancient religion in general, that the gods are pretty selfish, and their interactions with humans are almost always because the gods gain something from it.
edit: I mean, I've heard of statues of gods being 'kidnapped' after a conquest. Why is it so outrageous for Achilles to chop down a god's head, especially if he is playing the arrogant warrior archetype? It's kinda like with Superheroes: sure, Batman will never kill the Joker, but we can all agree that, in real life, Batman would probably kill the Joker at some point, and very few people would blame it.
The film is a loose adaptation which focuses on the realism of the Iliad, so I'm ok with characters being skeptical. Also, I'd like to point out that many people today check the horoscope, for example, or go to readings, and doesn't necessary mean they believe it all. We all seek higher powers at certain points (usually crises). And, even most religious people, take from their religion what they agree with, and dismiss the rest, so who's to say the ancients weren't the same? After all, the human body (and therefore the mind) have barely changed in these two milleniums.
Also, they're not supposed to be omniscient. The Greek gods are supposed to be actual beings, living in the physical (albeit heavenly) place of Mt. OIympus. How are they supposed to learn about human wrong-doings if no one tells them about it? Even if they have magic devices, they can't be watching everyone all the time. So surely the punishment for defying a god is more about not getting caught than to avoid it altogether. I mean, don't the humans in greek mythology defy the gods all the time? If you have the favor of another god, you might get away with it. It's not a lightning bolt from the skies situation. For that, you have to anger Zeus specifically, don't you? (at least in most cases).
The shooting of the deer supports this. The deal with the gods is don't interact with them, becouse they are unforgiving. It's not really about right or wrong, but about respecting their wishes. I doubt they'd care too much about someone doubting them, as long as they obey when commanded.
30:15 Doesn't it? It's called 'Troy', not the Iliad. It's based on the historical events, it's not a re-telling of the Iliad. I don't see the problem with that.
I mean, think about it: two thousand years from now, archaeologists might label the current Western World as atheist as a whole. They would be very wrong, of course, but if most of the surviving records show atheism, suddendly we're all turned atheist by future interpretation. Perhaps we're doing that to the ancient world? After all, science was born in that very same ancient world. It couldn't be 100% 'it's all in the god's hands'. People have been conquering the elements (ie, the primordial gods) since before we were people. I.e., we've been defying the gods (and our alotted fate) since the dawn of humanity.
Thanks. I was one of those who felt that the movie wasn't faithful to the book, but your argument from movie practicalities and modern sensibilities is convincing. OTOH, I enjoyed the movie of the Odyssey MUCH more and felt that it was faithful to its source.
I look forward to your take on the Odyssey movie.
You are teriffic. I love your enthusism. I am learning so much from you
Thank you so much 🥹🫶🏼
The most well trained man is just always a step behind a god.
There's an even worse quote from Achilles about his faith: he tells Briseis that he's SEEN the gods. So if he knows without any doubt that they're real, why would he desecrate the statue of Apollo?!
Do not forget that the troyans were greeks too
It was an Achaean greek tribe in Asia from around 1500 bc (the troyan war took place about 1200 bc) at that time all cities around troy were of greek origin (asia minor etc)
They had the same language same religion (the 12 greek gods) generaly the same culture
So we can tell that it was the first greek civil war in human history
Troy (2004) is based on the Iliad. While Troy: Fall of a City (2018) is not an adaptation of Homer's Iliad or Odyssey it's based on the Trojan War
It’s like cutting the witches from Macbeth. Or the dreams from Richard III. Most of us no longer believe in witchcraft, so should a new film of Macbeth just have Macbeth and Lady Macbeth discussing killing Duncan based on pure ambition?
I think they should have included the gods in some way especially at the beginning of the story the part with that golden apple should have been included to make people see that alot of the war is because of an action connected with 3 goddesses.That is only one scene extra.Have you seen the tv mini-series Hellen of Troy. It is not perfect but it is better.
I haven’t seen the tv series, but I’ll be sure to check it out!
Ugh why is Hector's 'how many battalions' quote lifted from an apocryphal Stalin quote about the Pope...
Great video though, well reasoned against a steelmanned position. The greeks should fear the gods.
Funny, I always watched the director's cut of the movie thinking there were moments in which it was clear that Achilles is a demigod. Achilles is not "just good" in the movie but I'd say in tune with a reality which escapes most other men. We're given many hints of this in the full length of the movie. But this doesn't come through at all in the theatrical cut.
I interpreted the movie's goal as: try and make a film about this Trojan war as it could have happened in reality. (Or at least what we think could have happened - or what would look good on screen and appeal to the 21st century audience.) Maybe they went: So there were these Greeks a long time ago, most of them were religious and believed in the gods. But probably there were people then too who questioned the existence of gods - just like nowadays, right... And so on. And they crafted this movie for today's audience where the characters are basically exactly like the people in the 21st century.
I agree with you, that it is a misconception. Ancient people were very different from us, they were thinking and behaving differently. As we can see that from the Iliad and other ancient works.
I like your channel very much btw, you make very entertaining videos about ancient topics. Thanks!
Amazing video as always🎉thanks for being so full of life😊
Thank youuuu
Link us to articles discussing how the gods are metaphorical please!!!
There were a few subtle inferences that the gods existed in the movie. DVINE STRENGTH - When Achilles threw the spear and dehorsed a enemy, Hector was shocked because that was a superhuman feat. DIVINE PROTCTION Achilles being a seasoned warrior didnt have a scratch on him from BEFORE and During the movie till his demise. DIVINE GUIDANCE - How did Paris KNOW to aim for Achilles heal and HOW he landed a 1/1000 shot with his FIRST ARROW? 🤔
Hmm. You say that the Greeks in the mythology would never have disrespected the gods as Achilles did in the film by cutting off the head of Apollo's statue. But didn't Diomedes in the Iliad actually hit Aphrodite with a spear, and didn't Athena turn against the Greeks after they disrespected her statue?
1) Atheism in the ancient world : I can assure you as long as human beings have thought there's a deity snooping around somewhere there have been some just going along with the madness for a peaceful life. There has always been atheists.
2) In the movie, Achilles talks to Briseis knowing she is religious uses a religious metaphor to cast doubt, Atheists do this today, see Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins even Ricky Gervais - apparently Brad Pitt is also an atheist.
3) In the movie Eudorus warns Achilles of consequences following his impiety at the temple of Apollo. So as a screenplay this implies that his own men did not understand how little he regarded the religion.
So I think there's enough there to draw the conclusion that privately the Achilles character was not particularly religious and only showed this in very intimate relationships.
For me, where the screenplay wanders too far from the Iliad is in the death of Menelaus and later Agamemnon and allowing Paris to survive. Also I'm sure it would have improved the movie to show how Helen had grown to hate Paris.
My personal biggest issue with it. How can you tell the story without the gods there!
Well the gods are just personifications for human emotions so imo you don't really lose anything if you just cut put the middle man and just show the human emotions.
The symbolism of the gods in Homer is NOT conclusive at all. They COULD be interpreted as personifications for human emotion, but there are also other theories about their function as well!
Achilles mother made a brief appearance.
and she wasn't "god like"
I was exposed to the real story of the Illiad few months ago and I love it. Too long but fantastic story. I would exclude the Gods as well because the story is good on it's own. Even in the human aspect of the story, a lot could have been done in a correct way. That being said I love the movie and see it as a classic.
Ancient Greek gods and goddesses represent personifying natural forces, societal and communal powers, ethical considerations. These forces and powers are more powerful than humans. Personified, of course, they are envious of mortals and their weaknesses because humans invented them.
I was more pissed for Diomedes ,Idomeneos ,Penthesilea and Κύκνος being left out of the film .
Still Troy was great compared to other Trojan War movies .
You really had me until you said it was great 😂🫠
I like the film without the gods, because it humanizes it, but I have to admit that I have to agree with the fact that it goes too far. Really too far. It's difficult to believe a person of those times would behave like those young warriors do in the film (Achilles and Hector).
But I like the humanization. I wish it had been better done.
I deeply resent the trend in academia that seems to want to secularize the ancients and suggests they weren't really religious or didn't believe in the gods. It's like they can't believe "silly religious" people could have been as intelligent as we know they were, so to reconcile their dissonance they try to write it off as metaphor, or some other reductive nonsense.
Since then deus ex machina improves story?
There are no Greek Gods and Goddesses in Troy (2004) but there is one Greek Goddess it's Achilles's mother "Thetis"
Watch the Director’s Cut. It’s the superior version.
The gods are absent because no one and I mean no one, could possibly weave them into the story in a manner that did not leave mortals as mere 'dust in the wind' type figures...virtually meaningless as to value and meaning...the war would become a story about gods and goddesses and fate and not the human characters we encounter.
Maybe Petersen confused Achilles with his son Neoptolemus haha? He indeed offended Apollo as he was responsible for his father's death (at least in Euripides' version). And still he just demanded reparation and did not destroy the statue of the god. Well of course Neoptolemus also did not end well even though he was immediatelly sorry and tried to apologize...
I have no idea if that’s what Peterson did but 😵💫
@@MoAnInc Probably not but I still find it funny :D
I noticed the atheistic perspective and some of the anti war stuff. I think it was kind of a bad retelling of The Illiad.
“Retelling” is a strong word 😂
With you in Camp A: the Iliad is entertainment, and what’s more entertaining than the gods breaking the rules and being petty a-holes?! Paris actually disappearing because Aphrodite is thirsty is hilarious, bizarre, and shows what a douche he is when he doesn’t immediately run back to the battle to save his reputation and honour the sacred rituals and oath.
That said, I make my students repeat the phrase “the gods are the external representation of talent in mortals”, because on the whole they are just that (Divine Inspiration), and, very rarely, they actually get involved in ways that affect the plot (Divine Intervention).
My biggest issue with the lack of gods in the film is basically the ‘er how do we end the Menelaus-Paris duel… I know let’s kill Menelaus’ because now the war should technically be over, and now your Odyssey-based sequel (of which we were robbed, frankly) won’t make sense.
Achilles being so aethistic and challenging to Apollo makes him a different kind of tragic hero, letting his pride get in the way rather than his anger. Guess it makes sense in a film that’s not just for Classicists? Dude. Your mum is a goddess.
Sorry such a long comment hon, just really lacking anyone to chat this over with and get annoyed with right now!
Idk. Whenever I read greek myths I just read the gods as a metaphor for human emotion and behaviors. In my mind I never treat the gods as actual characters.
Edit: lol commented too soon just hit the part where you point out the literal vs metaphorical distinction.
I love the movie and I love the „real“ version of people believing that there are gods and people not believing in them, while the gods never existed. Yes the Iliad says it otherwise but is there anyone living today who really believes that the Greek gods ever existed or still exist? The movie takes the approach that they never did and that there where obviously, let’s call them “woke” for the lack of a better word, people who new. Achilles and hector in the movie seem to be both very intelligent and brave. Maybe they would have tested the theories and never got punished and then they lost their believe and they understood that they where made up 😅 that’s just my opinion and idea 😊 feel free to disagree.
Ps. Love your videos and your channel
Cause Achilles did'nt 'believe in them'...he beheaded one
Maybe cause they are hated 'barbarian pagans'?...FFWD to Vikings TV series all is not lost
Would anyone like to read a book about the gods answering for everything they’ve done?
I'm inclined to be on the side of the Troy producers or screenwriters - whoever it was who decided to leave the gods out of the film. i guess they wanted some emphasis on human interest and human foibles, the trial and tribulations of Brad and Eric and the rest, and if there were all-powerful gods appearing willy-nilly making all human effort appear pointless then it would take away from that.
if you were making a film of the Iliad as true as possible to the original, I think you'd have a mighty job keeping the audience hooked during the catalogue of the ships in Book 2!
Including all the gods might be more suitable to an animated production, maybe?
Anyway, whatever, thanks for posting the video!
God awful film. Was Patroclus a nephew or smthng? Lol
I suppose Hwood couldn’t find actors as attractive and stately as Gods like Apollon, Aphrodite, Athena and Ares.
I also remember hating the costumes and production design.
Hollywood, eh? And you look for complexity or fidelity? Poofh!
😂😂😂