I agree. It is particularly admirable when the public feedback to such a video is so direct and instantaneous, and some people can be very mean when they perceive a weakness. But Tony and Chelsea's openness in admitting mistakes is actually a great strength, and speaks very well of their confidence and character.
I feel like I scripted this! Done all the above and then some. My favorite is when they say "This should be easy for you" or "This should not take long"... translation, "We don't want to spend any money on this". Also beware of Non-Profit organizations - I tried to help one and they all piled on! And they all have a Doctor's wife in a new Mercedes running the operation. I finally realized "I" was the "non-profit" part of their orgaizations!
Good points! I deal with a lot of Nonprofits in my line of work and they're usually very difficult to work with. Most of them are horribly mismanaged and have an unbearable sense of entitlement.
Yeah same here and I'm more on the video side of things which is even a whole lot more work involved than the still photo work. Also churches they also share many of the same bad habits of non-profits especially when the senior person in charge pulls up in a brand new Bentley.
Know the feeling... got a call last week from a lady wanting photos of her newborn and her. She asked whether I did payment plans (which I don't) and negotiated a lower price instead. I should have twigged that this was the first warning sign. Appointment was made for a few days later at 2:00PM at her house. She rang the day before to change it to 3:00PM because she was getting her makeup done. I arrived at the house at 3:00PM and she wasn't home. Whoever answered the door said that she would be there soon. I waited in my car for 45 minutes and then decided to leave. As I was driving home she started ringing me. By that time I had had enough and didn't answer the phone. I don't feel that I missed out on a job because most likely there would have been more problems.
The way you solve problems like that is by charging her 1/3 up front, (or whichever logical percentage), doing so ahead of time, just like wedding photographers always do
Absolutely Hilarious. I nearly wet myself laughing, as I made all the same mistakes when I started out in 1970's. In my case the best thing I did was marry an Attorney who taught me about contracts, negotiations and playing hardball. It is wonderful being retired and back to being an amateur photographer again! Love your videos. Bruce
Thanks for telling the hard truths about the photography business. When I have a bad day at work I think about quitting and being a photographer, so it’s good that you two are around to restore some level-headedness to my romanticized version of how that would go
15 years as a professional photographer here - couldn't agree more with this video. I've heard it all. As a photographer, you have to learn to proactively *Manage client Expectations*. You have to be a clear and effective communicator and learn to turn down as much dodgy work as you accept good work. There is no such thing as negotiating rates after the event and whilst press and promotion is nice, it does not pay the bills. When I went professional, my mentor and photographer I had been assisting for years said to me 'If you're good enough to do the job, you're good enough to be paid the going rate for the job. If I ever hear that you're charging less than me, there'll be trouble!'. Meaning - don't devalue the industry and the professionals already in it. If you're actually any good you'll get paid because your work will speak for itself. Spend some time putting together a Rate Card. Have a PDF of your rates for Editorial, Advertorial, Commercial and Corporate, for example. List the equipment to be provided, what's going to cost extra, the time you'll be on site (or studio time) for a half-day or full day rate. List how much editing time is included in the rate and how much extra editing days and adjustments will cost. Always try and get a Purchase Order number BEFORE you turn up on site! I still spend weeks chasing PO numbers from clients who fail to raise them before a shoot, even though half the time it's illegal for me to be on site without one. Be prepared to go with the flow if the budget's there! A recent DSLR video job (that I had spent weeks discussing the details with the client) suddenly expanded on the day from a single person talking-head interview for 1 hour, to filming three 5 minute interviews, a 1 hour long speech in front of an audience in a pitch black room with a huge projector screen and no other lighting, followed by a 1 hour Q&A session with 100 participants AND stills portraits! (And I already had a PO number for the smaller job, which now needs to be re-submitted and I'd have to wait another month for the new PO in order to invoice, which would take another 3 months to pay...at best!) - So, I turn up at 8am with two DSLR's, tripods, a top mic and a wireless mic and some small LED lights and end up having to shoot all day long manually focus pulling, pushing all my equipment and myself to the limit. Good job I brought along (just in case) external power supplies for both DSLR's, extra CF cards, laptop, SSD's, a small lightbox and flash with pocket wizards! The biggest issue was the Q&A audio - with no mic to hand around and no mixer I had to create graphics overlays for the questions caught by the top mic in the final video. I also asked the presenter to repeat the questions he was asked...which he remembered half the time! If you're working with a studio set-up with walk-ins & bookings, be really clear about what the client is hoping to achieve and really clear about what you will produce for them and your exact charges. If a client came in with a dying dog, I'd see it as an opportunity to book another session! 'We're set-up to shoot you today, but if you'd like to bring the dying dog back tomorrow (if it's still alive), we can shoot him then'...there's another day rate for you! Unless you're loaded and don't really need the business to be a success in order to survive, starting out in professional photography is a massive challenge on many fronts, especially financially. Everyone has to cut their teeth starting out and we all take the occasional risk in business. But, at the end of the day if you're good enough to be a professional photographer (are you?!), you're good enough to be paid accordingly.
Tony & Chelsea: I run into your videos regularly while researching things and have to say how wonderful it's been to learn quite a bit about photography from this top class couple/team. Delivery is always very professional, clean and informative. Personalities feel genuine, warm and welcoming. You all are a true breath of fresh air. I'm very thankful you are around and so active in this arena. You deserve every bit of success built over the years and I pray God blesses you even more moving forward. Remember the priceless value of investing into each other and your home as you share this passion for photography. Keep up the incredible work and always be yourselves! Thanks again! You all ROCK!!! :D
Yup, 100% agree. This is why I've set minimum prices. Brides would constantly try to remove features to try and lower the price. None of that happens anymore with hard minimums and maintaining a higher standard. More of these videos please.
Somebody already put a thumbs down, even though the video was published 4 mins ago (the video being 20mins long...). I think somebody is jealous of you guys ;)
I have a couple of stories in this vein. My first paid photoshoot was quoted for a ridiculously low price and was for a company that wanted to sell vintage designer clothing items. Once I arrived on the shoot day, the client then began asking about editing possibilities for backgrounds and the like, which we had not discussed previously. The editing took me about two weeks to accomplish with the client calling almost every day after the first week concluded. I was not strictly making any money to begin with, but I definitely did not make any money after the editing was taken into account. My second story involves an editing project for a clothing company that needed photos edited for use in web publication for sales. The client expressed discontent with previous freelance work contracted (those results were terrible), and the owner asked if I could use higher quality editing techniques, which I promised. I repeatedly asked from the outset how many images in total she required, and I never received an exact answer. Instead, she kept sending images wanting them edited ASAP, and she said that she would pay the bill at the end whatever the cost. I sent the bill after images were altered, and she immediately balked and told me she felt as if I was taking advantage of her. I finally settled for 50% of my asking price, and she begrudgingly paid it. I want to say that I have learned my lesson, but time will tell, and I am glad that I am not alone!
I just love you guys, you're so sincere and open people that I am prepared just to sit there listening to your stories, no matter the subject. Stay awesome!
Perhaps the most useful advice you have ever given. Shooting for free or for cheap hurts the whole industry. Please don't do it, everyone! It has shocked me how aggressive people have become because I refuse to work for nothing.
I feel your pain!!! 40 years of self employed graphics and photography and I have done all those things and more. It’s hard to be a prick and it’s really not my style, so, I make sure I quote the job and outline ‘exactly what they are getting’. And you really do have to figure out the time needed and then add 50% more because this is reality! It will take longer than you think and once you’re working in the wee hours of the night trying to get that job out the door, and you realize you’re not making any money, you begin to hate this job and it’s bullshit, etc etc.... if you charge for the job and you’re working late, at least you’re getting paid. Also, if you actually did fly through the job and it was a breeze, you can always charge less if you wanted to be nice to a client. But even then, you would be better off charging the full amount so you make up some of the lost money on those previous 3 jobs that didn’t go so well. Bottom line is, “charge”! You want to do this work and in order to keep doing it, you have to make money! Or, you go broke being Mr NiceGuy. Practice on your own time, but any job worth doing is the one you get paid for. :-)
This is relevant to every business that provides a service, not just photography. I run my own Civil Engineering consultancy and I make all these mistakes, too. Especially the time-underestimation one. In my business, I track and itemise my times religiously down to the minute, I carefully review my time-related data on past projects to better understand how long things take, I give estimated time ranges rather than just one flat fee in my fee proposals to clients, and *still* I sometimes underestimate how long things will take! And, like you two, I can have a level of "agreeableness" in the Big 5 personality traits that is too high for some situations. I therefore sometimes find myself failing to properly lead a client to understand the scope and cost of the services they need.
...and I just had someone ring me up to suggest I do a "half-hour" job for free, in the hope that I might get a larger job out of it! I am actually going to do that free "half-hour" job, despite everything stated in this video...
I live in Missouri, and I don't shoot wedding pictures. I had somebody in Aurora, Illinois (a city located 325 miles from where I live) contact me and say "we are getting married this fall, but we can't afford a real photographer... your pictures are really good, would you stop buy and shoot our wedding for us? It would be great exposure for you!" Great exposure to her friends 325 miles from where I live doing a very, very difficult type of photography I don't even do, for free... yeah, I'ma jump right on that. I could get all of the free weddings I want to take in Aurora, Illinois! Wow, that's amazing! I'm a nice guy but I'm not THAT nice.
I love how they said that they 'cannot afford a real photographer'. How did they expect you to do the job after saying that. I am glad you didn't do it. :)
Whenever I need to give an estimate on how long things will take, I find the time I think it will take and then double it. That has suited me well over the years
Of the freebies I've done almost none ever help "spread the word." Or did very little to hold up their end of helping my exposure. I've found you garner more attention when you do a paid gig. I think there's something to the attractiveness of someone investing in your services that others pick up on.
Absolutely. Also, many people assume that most items needed to provide a professional service are free. Things like i. your education to get to the level you are at; ii. the technology you had to purchase; iii. the licencing of the software that will be used at some point; iv. the vehicle requirements, housing costs (i.e rent or mortgage, taxes, hydro, etc). ALL OF THESE THINGS SO MANY PEOPLE JUST ASSUME HAVE NO COST! wtf
Honestly this is good advice for anyone who does spec work or consults. I did web consulting for time. Had a client request a name change for their website and print materials. I gave them a price and they gave the go ahead. Half way through the project they said "never mind, change it back". So I did. Then I sent them the bill for the work I did to change it and then change it back. They freaked out because to them nothing changed so it should have zero cost. Lesson? Make sure people understand that your time and expertise has value. Also love the exposure angle. Last time I checked they didn't take "exposure" at the grocery store.
Before I started doing the photography thing I was a Farrier (horseshoer) and I learned the “You know, while you’re here...” question very well. The problem is that the “little thing” they are asking about is the one that takes 10x longer than what you were there for in the first place. I also just ran into that with my new gig (re photography) when I went to shoot a “simple mobile home”. I thought no biggie. 30 minutes in and out. It was further away than most shoots so fortunately I took care of THAT extra cost. BUT...just as I was finishing the shoot (which started with one of my other favorite phrases “I don’t want to tell you how to do your job, but...” the property owner says “I need to get shots of the beach and the pier. This is a must!” So off to the beach fighting traffic and walking around in the sand. Lesson learned.
Do yourself a favor and don't ever agree to photograph an extended family (especially as a favor), You can be guaranteed half the people in the group won't want to be there and will look like they don't want to be there. If you are foolish enough to take on the job, you can count on spending several times as much time shooting and editing as you originally estimated. Group shots are hard enough without adding the fact that at least some of the group are already feeling coerced, don't like their family to begin with, and are pissed off at uncle Bob because he showed up half drunk and wearing a ratty T-shirt.
Thank you for your video! This reminds me of many situations and I'm happy to have been more resolved in some of them. This happens not only with photography but in pretty much every sector. Many times you risk to be considered unprofessional or rude by just standing your ground, explaining that what you are being asked doesn't comply with what previously stated.
I found out early on that doing jobs for friends could go horribly wrong. I did one job reproducing some old family painted portraits for which I charged a friend an agreed fee, profitable but not excessive. It was a great success and another family member saw the results and wanted her own copies. I gave her the same price, she agreed and I (the mug!) sent her the pictures and she came back haggling about the agreed price which she said was too expensive. In the end I had to agree her reduced price which covered my material costs and not a lot more. If she had not been the aunt of my friend I would have given her hell but she exploited the fact that I would not willingly jeopardise my friendship with her niece. Avoid doing favours at all costs! Especially to friends.
I'm still amateur status right now but plan to do this as business soon. I do have a story. I did some volunteer shots so no money was involved except for some small prints (I purchased....I volunteered). The client described to me how they would like the pictures. Well, based on the description of how the photos were to be used I did landscape orientation for some head shots. The client was present at the time and even watched the back of the camera as I showed the client the sharpness of the photos. I then sent thumbnail pics to client and everyone who had their pictures taken which showed the orientation. Everyone was happy so I got the pictures printed. When I gave the client the pictures the client said oh, I wanted the pictures portrait orientated instead of landscape. I have to say I was a bit upset especially since the client saw what I was doing and even saw the thumbnails in the landscape orientation. I did go back and edit for a portrait orientation but the client decided to cut them down. Lesson learned is this...never assume based on client's description what they want. I learned that clients may not know anything and I should walk them through the details of how the pictures will look and then go from there. One lesson learned and I'm sure many will follow.
I had to wait 2 months to get paid for two jobs I did for a provincial competition only to find out they were going to pay me much less than previously discussed ($28) for doing 26 hours worth of photographing. I shot about 10+ mountain bike races starting at 5AM and ending after 6PM each day. Also, the one race was in gale force winds and pouring rain (I have the aftermath swamp pics). I also had to submit the top 50 photos by the following morning (10AM). Only to be paid peanuts.
I'm an amateur photographer trying to get into wedding photography. I charge roughly $10/hour for just the shoot, and adjust costs for prints photo album, wedding portrait and picture CD along with editing time. One shoot was Three hundred shots another only about one hundred. I'm still having problems with lighting. Many of the weddings I'm shooting are indoors with very low ceilings and reflective surfaces (VFW Halls and the like) or even wooden ceilings. Wedding table in front of the wall sized Bingo machine, not including awards all in glass frames on all walls.
Ooof. That's brutal. Lesson to take away from that is: If you're bidding out multiple days worth of work you need to get sizable deposit in advance, so that if later it all falls in the swamp you're not totally out-of-pocket.
This is exactly why I only deliver photos online. When the client have seen the photos in the Gallery they can pay and will get a link to download the photos. No payment ( as agreed ) means no photos .-)
that's right, don't be afraid to do this cause you will not get the 'peanuts' that they are offering to pay you but think it this way, you will hurt them more and shame them at the same time, next time they pull this crap, they will at least think twice.
I did a similar thing shooting a motor cross event and after making prints for the best 8 B&W shots they didn't want to pay me anything and would only give me news paper credits for the shots. I told them pay for my film and time but they wouldn't. They loved my shots. I walked away from them. I was 17 years old and learned a lot about getting things in writing that day before you do any work. I still love photography but have not perused it for a career yet.
I'm a musician. It's amazing how all these things correlate to music and getting music gigs. Did a wedding reception and after setting up all the equipment was asked "While your here" can you have the keyboard player play Here comes the bride. Unfortunately, the actual ceremony was in a different room. This required moving some equipment, just for that song. As well as the fact that having someone do the ceremony costs more money.
I can completely relate to this. Most of these issues happen to us DJ's as well. Like Tony said, if you're gonna do something for cheap, make sure to tell them not to tell anyone. That happened to me, I did a wedding for a very young couple. I could tell I was off their budget. I just sensed it. But something told me to do it within their budget. I started asking about their guests to try to sense what type of crowd it would be. I quickly realized that most of their invites were my target demo. I took the gig, did my best, went above and beyond and needless to say, from one cheap gig, I got 6 other high end bookings that completely made up for that gig. That was a HUGE win for me! Sometimes you gotta look at cheap gigs as a business tactic/move and assess the risks and rewards. But, at the sometime, don't over do it.
This was about video production in the pre-nonlinear video editing days I made a contract with the park and recreation department of Colorado Springs to produce a 5-minute video showing a park program where homebound individuals could take part in a program that got them out of the house and engaged in different park programs. My error was not knowing that all the decisions would be made by leadership that I never met and who were nervous about how they would be held accountable. Typically this would be a nine-day shoot and edit production job. I did not set enough limits in the contract, thus nearly three years later and after many iterations, I got paid. All my future contracts were well defined.
A friend of mine had a printing business. He said that his worst customers were the largest companies. Those companies had learned long ago that the longer you put off paying your bills, the longer that money stays in their bank account and not yours. Essentially that amounts to free products or services for months. And the money that stays in their account is adding interest all that time. Why does a small business continue doing business with a large company with terrible business practices? Eventually they do get paid and they can't afford to lose a large customer even if they pay late.
I can relate with all those points you put there! Scope creep mixed with exposure can be particularly insidious. I once had a client meeting so I could quote for the job, which was a promo for the company... the job sounded exciting with the promise of a regular gig once the company started rolling doing product photography and such. So after 3 hours hearing the excited client talk to me about their ideas and their product. I got home and quoted...under quoted hoping to hook in for the long run work. Similar to the restaurant story they were shocked about how much I quoted (even though it was 30% of the real price). The client tried to hook me in on half of my quote and kept me excited on the job. Thankfully no shots were taken but many hours and emails wasted for nothing.
Great advice thanks for sharing this video. Also your videos are so professional, i've been watching you both since you started years ago and wow your YT channel is so professional & easy to watch always super clear and great sound! Thanks!
Had a 50th year naval ship reunion that I was hired for. Supposed to be 50-60 people in attendance. Turned out there was over 120 people, crew from the commissioning until being scrapped, the venue wasn't large enough to photograph everyone at the same time, and there were groups of early sailors and later sailors that didn't know each other. Separated them into pre 1960 and post 1960 crew. (note to prospective group photographers, old men can't kneel). Shot this on film, then processed in the film in the Wing Lynch. So instead of setting the mini-lab up to run 70 prints, I had to do two setups, and bring 150 prints for 9:00AM checkout the following morning. I was already doing this job at a reduced price, but after transportation and materials invested, I broke even. The group invited me to photograph for them two years later, across the country, which I declined.
Great advice. I am just starting out and have already seen and made a couple of these mistakes. Thank you for sharing these so I don’t feel like the only one and can avoid other mistakes. We have to make people value our time and work. It’s hard while getting started and when you don’t want to say no to people. The key is like you said, having up front pricing and options.
Selling prints is one of the hardest things for me. I don't know how many people wanted a huge print from me but only wanted to pay $5 or ummm free. People have no idea how much it actually cost so I rarely sell prints anymore. It's depressing and makes me feel like my work is only worth $5 and who knows maybe it is, but to me....it's worth a lot more and I'm going to ask what I want.
No substitute for hands on experience. Thks for sharing these common pitfalls we probably wouldn't have even given a second thought, if you hadn't mentioned them.
Are you guys going to be in NYC for the Photo Expo? My story: I'm hired by an agency to shoot a promo campaign for a certain CT down town merchant's association. They outlined what they wanted to do. I prepared my price. The said "Oh No, way to expensive" I suggested cutting out certain usage like bill boards, outdoor advertising and television. Everyone was good with that. We agreed our email chain would suffice as our agreement. It was a good shoot. They were thrilled. A year later I see my images on the side of a bus and later in a TV spot. I called the agency who informed me they no longer represented the client and the client played dumb- "Oh Really?" Then said they had no money because that was last year's budget. We ultimate settled by their "promising" to give me more work for which I would be paid handsomely . I don't think I ever was fully compensated. My lesson: a real contract with an understanding of copyright and usage.
I have a friend and I asked her that I could take portraits of her for my portfolio. We agreed. The next day she brought her friends. She only want to be shot like 2 or 3 picture and she want me to take her friend’s pictures which is not in my agreement. I was so frustrated and said yes nicely. There were like 6 people on the area. It takes me an amount of time same as a family package.
Compensation by exposure is such a bullshit, there's never benefit from that even if there is exposure, money talks bullshit walks, pay or bye bye. But yeah, all of us that are in photography went through all scenarios that you mentioned, but that is growing up
Yeah, that's crap in every business. Try and go to a restaurant and tell them you'll stream live as you eat so they get *exposure* and you'll eat and drink for free for 2 hours... see how it goes ;)
So true !! I was a Wedding photographer for 25 years and people where always trying to do exactly what you talked about in this video !! I am glad I am not alone Thank you for these videos.
I'm glad you made this video... I'm a Dj and a photographer and in both fields people want you to donate your time and skills for no charge. By far you have to be smart and say no even if you want to do it for them. Love your videos
All these things can be applied to ANY business, I own a pool business and can relate to every one of your scenarios. Great tips for anyone not just photographers.
Yes, yes, yes! Always price upfront or at a bare minimum, give a realistic range. I've done this a couple of times and the post negotiation process is always much worse. Thankfully, I didn't lose out but it was much more uncomfortable for both parties.
I've heard that before. I did some work for an independent construction guy long ago, and that's how he told me he priced jobs. Figure out your best estimate and triple it. Maybe if I'd listened to him I'd have made more money in construction. :(
1. You have a wise wife! 2. Your smart for listening to her :^) 3. Don''t tell her I said #1 & #2. It'll go to her head and you'll never live it down. (hee hee) 4. Don't tell my wife I said any of this :^D
Oh my goodness! Glad I am not the only one who has made these mistakes lol. I started out with no plan other than to charge what the other photographers do. I learned quickly that their model was not for me because I am interested in providing that quality image and not just a quick one. So I took a step back and dedicated some time to learning and developing. That’s what I am doing right now and all of your podcasts and tutorials have been so helpful. Thanks!
I went to my bank manager the other day and asked him if they accept exposure dollars, unfortunately, he said no. so I had to give him real money. Sad reactions only, please.
A friend of mine always lists every "accomodation" on her bills as line items, i.e. "two hours travel time, $150......No Charge" so if you're giving anyone a break, you're letting them know they've already got it. And that makes them more reluctant or ashamed to beg for more.
I can totally relate to everything you guys talked about, it has happened to me too many times. Sometimes its been my fault and other times its been the clients fault. My last situation was with a friend's wedding, i went from being the photographer to wedding assistant and family driver.
Thank you for such openness. What you said happened to me so many times. We suckered by our own passion in photography. That little bit more mean the longer set up and post production time too. I have been in professional photography since 1986 and even last week someone said to me, you get the exposure. 😱
This is great stuff here, you guys sharing your not so good experiences and moments in photography as a means of an income, I am all ears here, listening. I am an amateur photographer who really likes to shoot with vintage gear, mostly lenses, and I have what it takes for party events, family portraits etc but sell myself short based off my inexperience and fear that people will be offended, the thing is I enjoy shooting people and get a kick out of it, it offsets me further in getting a good price across the board.
Getting paid.... I have tales to tell. I have definitely underprice on many occasions (and I still do that). But... I have only once -- in 25+ years -- been paid less than 100% of what I was owed. That one occasion, the client was in Connecticut and I was in NYC, which meant that litigation would take place in CT. That gave them the only advantage they had. I settled for about 75% of the originally agreed amount to avoid hiring a lawyer in Connecticut. So, my 5+ bits on getting paid: 1. Agree -- in writing -- in advance. That includes a breakdown of amounts and what each amount covers. It also includes language that makes clear what happens if they do not pay on time, and makes clear that I (we, the artists) retain all copyright privileges unless a right is expressly transferred (and that costs money). 2. Charge a retainer. Some amount, perhaps a third or a quarter of the expected total. That means they've committed, and it means you have a record of their engagement in case they want to pretend nothing was ever agreed. 2. There is something about being a creative that leads clients to think, "Hey, payment is always on spec." Was that meal at the restaurant on spec? "I'm sorry, I didn't really like this meal; so, I'm only going to pay 25% of what the menu says." Never do work on spec. (Like that line from Joker in the Batman movie: "If you're good at something , never do it for free.") 3. Overages. Clients need to know that changes in scheduling or in content will lead to higher costs. They want you to be on time, but for some reason, they think that they can take however much time they like. Then, "Why aren't you finished?!" ... "Uhhh, because you only gave me feedback yesterday..." 4. When the payment is really late, and you have sent a polite letter or email more than once, there are options: a. A demand letter from a lawyer; b. If the amount is small, small claims court is possible (a poor option, since even with a judgement in your favor, you still need to recover the amount); b. Show up in person, be polite, and lobby for payment. The can do wonders. It's harder to ignore a person when they are right in front of you; c. If (b) doesn't work, you can use the technique of a 6ft 4in cinematographer friend of mine: "Payment isn't ready? That's okay. I'll be waiting for you when you leave work today." This is the New York City Payment Plan. 5. Always be polite, especially when they get rude. (And you might find yourself recording conversations.) 6. And don't do work for friends. 7. And always charge something, even for pro bono work. The lower the price, the more clients tend to think it should be free.
I am a baby photographer based in the near capital region of India. I normally shoot at client's home. My biggest problem is a "shoot time". Since I have to photograph small babies, I am finding it very difficult to analyse/predict how much time will it take to finish a complete shoot. That is majorly due to the unpredictable nature of babies (Which is obvious). Even though if I ask basic questions from the parents before scheduling a photoshoot time like "whats the best time during the day when your baby is more playful and happy?" and we try to follow the prescribed time window...babies are very unpredictable. I have even spent 6-7 hours for a single photoshoot of one baby. But, its good to see a smile on paren't faces when I show them the edited pictures. So, do you have any tips for me on how I can minimise the shoot time?
I think it falls into some sort wild life photography, you just can't predict how much time you need to take the shot... Just charge it like a worst case scenario... If it turn out faster then you can throw some freebies for them... Extra print or something... They will be happy and you get less headache...
Just know that the parents appreciate your work, thats a good thing, they will pay what you ask for that way, as for time, like Alphaxfang said its unpredictable, whatever you are doing is the best thing - asking the parents the vital information to get into that timeframe where the baby will be most lively, they will appreciate that, it shows you value time and want a success out of the photoshoot. GOOD LUCK
Reminds me of an old friend who was a commercial artist. He was a member of a church group who wanted something done, probably a brochure or something. They asked him if he could do it. He did the estimate, produced the quotation and sent it to the group. The next time he visited the church he was aware that the atmosphere was very frosty. The quotation was never mentioned and, as he had suspected all along they really expected him to do it for free. However, as he stated, this is his career.
I had an air-to-air photoshoot over the South Sound of Seattle with vintage warbirds back before digital in the early 2000's. The client said "while you're here, we can do a second photo mission with my other airplane." This other airplane turned out to be twice the speed of the photo ship which, unlike most photography, is actually dangerous. The shoot was pulled off and in the end, the client offered what they thought was a generous $250 for a half day shoot, photoship rental and several days of post to make promos for their warbird experience company. An expensive but otherwise fun/challenging lesson.
Reminds me of my accounting jobs in manufacturing. You almost need to create a spreadsheet reminding you to review ALL of your costs. FOR EACH JOB. Don't forget your other costs, accounting, taxes, ... Then review on at least a monthly basis. Also, sad, but true. EMBEZZLEMENT. yes.
I delivered newspapers as a kid. The owner of a local food market a block off my route was a customer. Although his family was almost always at the house on the route on days I collected my payments I had to walk to the market and wait in line, and for other interruptions to see him for payment. We eventually hashed out a 6-10 collections a year program.
Very relatable. Not everyone has the same sense of integrity, re. honouring verbal agreements. A few appreciate the level of work we will put in to achieve professional results. Interesting how the people closest to me, family and close friends, people I am happy to shoot for free or at special ‘mates rates’, are often insistent they pay me more! Perhaps though that is because they appreciate more the work and time I put in. Conversely, there are those you’ve met once at an event or whose mum’s wedding you shot 15 years previous who expect you to offer similarly friendly rates. Social media is worst for this. People who contact me via Facebook usually referrals seem of the mind I will be more flexible with my rates, presumably because it’s a social platform and us photographers are such a friendly amicable bunch aren’t we ;)
What would you recommend to someone with 4yrs of experience in videography and photography with no classroom training or degree? Where do you start? How does one get exposure?
love it! things to beware of as a creator...appreciated! In answer to Chelsea's 'What am I going to do?" - In Australia we have a thing called 'mates rates'...lower than your regular rates but set so you at least don't make a loss and maybe you can make a smaller than usual profit. This acknowledges both your business interest and your friendship. Hope this helps!
my first "sweet 16" , was basically all for nothing. we went from pricing for shooting the event, to a rehearsal pre-shoot, a video pre-shoot, and then the event. AND.... she asked for the rawfiles. i was so happy to get a paying gig, i just did everything. she gave me a $50 tip with my ask of $300. took me 4 days to edit more than 270 images combined. two years later she did hire me again for her husbands birthday. i got my fair price and still got a tip. but we had the discussion first. and agreed on the price, and because she gave me the tip up front, i offered a couple freebies.. my best part of a shoot is actually the editing. i can turn garbage into gold with lightroom and PS. many lessons learned!!
I had a client who asked me to attend a medical conference paid for by a pharmaceutical company. Job went well no problems supplied the photos and my invoice. The phone went and my client said I can't accept the invoice and my immediate thought was oh no another non payer. She continued the phone call saying if I pass the invoice on they won't believe me, give me an invoice and double it. Happy photographer happy client. I have been lucky despite making all the mistakes you have talked about. I have been able to work at what I am passionate about just about my whole life!
Great video. My very first wedding videography job (for a friend) was a 2 camera set up (which required hours of post) for the ceremony and one camera for the reception. I charged my friend only $250. During the ceremony his sister asked me how much I was charging. I told her. She said "You are charging $250 for 3 hours worth of work!!" I couldn't believe it. That was 10+ years ago. I don't do weddings anymore..I digitize old home movies. But now I never apologize for my prices. If they ask for discounts etc, I simply say "I don't discount my work." Great information you provided in your video for any business not just photography.
One more story.. I digitize home movies. One lady brought me in her VHS to DVD recorder manual and said she's tried to do it herself but keeps getting error messages..would I help her figure it out? I'm sure your mechanic will show you how to fix your brakes too. That's the other thing to be wary of, people who want your help to figure out your craft for free.
I hear ya! My first AND LAST wedding photography / videography. A friend was eloping and just wanted some walking down the aisle photos and video, a video of the vows, a couple photos of the kiss and signing; sounded easy enough since the venue had 20 minute bookings and was a couple hours drive away (I agreed to do it for $100 to essentially cover gas)! WRONG! Turns out the brides sister had found out about the elopement and the father and mother had secretly booked a church for the ceremony and a catered garden venue for the reception, to which they both turned to me and asked "can you please do our photos / videos for the rest of the most important day of our lives?"!! What can you say to that :/
My reply to "scope creep" YES! ...I'll be happy to do that, let me quickly prepare a shot list changer order and I'll need a signature. I'll get right on it.
I like how you guys tell it how it is and are not afraid to admit the mistakes you make when capturing pictures.
I agree. It is particularly admirable when the public feedback to such a video is so direct and instantaneous, and some people can be very mean when they perceive a weakness. But Tony and Chelsea's openness in admitting mistakes is actually a great strength, and speaks very well of their confidence and character.
"This meal is free because we're bad negotiators..." 😂
Valid for all businesses, not just photography.
I feel like I scripted this! Done all the above and then some. My favorite is when they say "This should be easy for you" or "This should not take long"... translation, "We don't want to spend any money on this".
Also beware of Non-Profit organizations - I tried to help one and they all piled on! And they all have a Doctor's wife in a new Mercedes running the operation. I finally realized "I" was the "non-profit" part of their orgaizations!
Good points! I deal with a lot of Nonprofits in my line of work and they're usually very difficult to work with. Most of them are horribly mismanaged and have an unbearable sense of entitlement.
"Finally realized I was the non-profit" is genius line haha, sorry you went through this! I wish you much success!
Yeah same here and I'm more on the video side of things which is even a whole lot more work involved than the still photo work. Also churches they also share many of the same bad habits of non-profits especially when the senior person in charge pulls up in a brand new Bentley.
Know the feeling... got a call last week from a lady wanting photos of her newborn and her. She asked whether I did payment plans (which I don't) and negotiated a lower price instead. I should have twigged that this was the first warning sign. Appointment was made for a few days later at 2:00PM at her house. She rang the day before to change it to 3:00PM because she was getting her makeup done. I arrived at the house at 3:00PM and she wasn't home. Whoever answered the door said that she would be there soon. I waited in my car for 45 minutes and then decided to leave.
As I was driving home she started ringing me. By that time I had had enough and didn't answer the phone. I don't feel that I missed out on a job because most likely there would have been more problems.
I am glad you got out with just time wasted!
The way you solve problems like that is by charging her 1/3 up front, (or whichever logical percentage), doing so ahead of time, just like wedding photographers always do
Absolutely Hilarious. I nearly wet myself laughing, as I made all the same mistakes when I started out in 1970's. In my case the best thing I did was marry an Attorney who taught me about contracts, negotiations and playing hardball. It is wonderful being retired and back to being an amateur photographer again! Love your videos. Bruce
5 dislikes? Oh, it's probably that restaurant owner, the one parent and their 2 kids, and that one dying dog
Yep, the very dying dog...
Isn't this a repeat video?
u mean yelp!
Thanks for telling the hard truths about the photography business. When I have a bad day at work I think about quitting and being a photographer, so it’s good that you two are around to restore some level-headedness to my romanticized version of how that would go
Free is the most expensive!
Having been a pro photog for 30 years, I have made all these mistakes. I hope your video will help someone to avoid them. Great work!
That's simply part of being self employed.
15 years as a professional photographer here - couldn't agree more with this video. I've heard it all. As a photographer, you have to learn to proactively *Manage client Expectations*. You have to be a clear and effective communicator and learn to turn down as much dodgy work as you accept good work. There is no such thing as negotiating rates after the event and whilst press and promotion is nice, it does not pay the bills. When I went professional, my mentor and photographer I had been assisting for years said to me 'If you're good enough to do the job, you're good enough to be paid the going rate for the job. If I ever hear that you're charging less than me, there'll be trouble!'. Meaning - don't devalue the industry and the professionals already in it. If you're actually any good you'll get paid because your work will speak for itself.
Spend some time putting together a Rate Card. Have a PDF of your rates for Editorial, Advertorial, Commercial and Corporate, for example. List the equipment to be provided, what's going to cost extra, the time you'll be on site (or studio time) for a half-day or full day rate. List how much editing time is included in the rate and how much extra editing days and adjustments will cost. Always try and get a Purchase Order number BEFORE you turn up on site! I still spend weeks chasing PO numbers from clients who fail to raise them before a shoot, even though half the time it's illegal for me to be on site without one.
Be prepared to go with the flow if the budget's there! A recent DSLR video job (that I had spent weeks discussing the details with the client) suddenly expanded on the day from a single person talking-head interview for 1 hour, to filming three 5 minute interviews, a 1 hour long speech in front of an audience in a pitch black room with a huge projector screen and no other lighting, followed by a 1 hour Q&A session with 100 participants AND stills portraits! (And I already had a PO number for the smaller job, which now needs to be re-submitted and I'd have to wait another month for the new PO in order to invoice, which would take another 3 months to pay...at best!) - So, I turn up at 8am with two DSLR's, tripods, a top mic and a wireless mic and some small LED lights and end up having to shoot all day long manually focus pulling, pushing all my equipment and myself to the limit. Good job I brought along (just in case) external power supplies for both DSLR's, extra CF cards, laptop, SSD's, a small lightbox and flash with pocket wizards! The biggest issue was the Q&A audio - with no mic to hand around and no mixer I had to create graphics overlays for the questions caught by the top mic in the final video. I also asked the presenter to repeat the questions he was asked...which he remembered half the time!
If you're working with a studio set-up with walk-ins & bookings, be really clear about what the client is hoping to achieve and really clear about what you will produce for them and your exact charges. If a client came in with a dying dog, I'd see it as an opportunity to book another session! 'We're set-up to shoot you today, but if you'd like to bring the dying dog back tomorrow (if it's still alive), we can shoot him then'...there's another day rate for you!
Unless you're loaded and don't really need the business to be a success in order to survive, starting out in professional photography is a massive challenge on many fronts, especially financially. Everyone has to cut their teeth starting out and we all take the occasional risk in business. But, at the end of the day if you're good enough to be a professional photographer (are you?!), you're good enough to be paid accordingly.
Tony & Chelsea: I run into your videos regularly while researching things and have to say how wonderful it's been to learn quite a bit about photography from this top class couple/team. Delivery is always very professional, clean and informative. Personalities feel genuine, warm and welcoming. You all are a true breath of fresh air. I'm very thankful you are around and so active in this arena. You deserve every bit of success built over the years and I pray God blesses you even more moving forward. Remember the priceless value of investing into each other and your home as you share this passion for photography. Keep up the incredible work and always be yourselves! Thanks again! You all ROCK!!! :D
I think the restaurant owner disliked the video🤣
"I'm throwing a party, want to hang out? Oh yeah, bring your camera..." From people you hardly know.
Yup, 100% agree. This is why I've set minimum prices. Brides would constantly try to remove features to try and lower the price. None of that happens anymore with hard minimums and maintaining a higher standard. More of these videos please.
Somebody already put a thumbs down, even though the video was published 4 mins ago (the video being 20mins long...). I think somebody is jealous of you guys ;)
Haters gonna hate just because...
Haters are everywhere!
Well a lot more people gave it a thumbs up by default before watching it.... so....
It's their client who didn't paid .
I laughed on this comment ;D
I have a couple of stories in this vein. My first paid photoshoot was quoted for a ridiculously low price and was for a company that wanted to sell vintage designer clothing items. Once I arrived on the shoot day, the client then began asking about editing possibilities for backgrounds and the like, which we had not discussed previously. The editing took me about two weeks to accomplish with the client calling almost every day after the first week concluded. I was not strictly making any money to begin with, but I definitely did not make any money after the editing was taken into account. My second story involves an editing project for a clothing company that needed photos edited for use in web publication for sales. The client expressed discontent with previous freelance work contracted (those results were terrible), and the owner asked if I could use higher quality editing techniques, which I promised. I repeatedly asked from the outset how many images in total she required, and I never received an exact answer. Instead, she kept sending images wanting them edited ASAP, and she said that she would pay the bill at the end whatever the cost. I sent the bill after images were altered, and she immediately balked and told me she felt as if I was taking advantage of her. I finally settled for 50% of my asking price, and she begrudgingly paid it. I want to say that I have learned my lesson, but time will tell, and I am glad that I am not alone!
I just love you guys, you're so sincere and open people that I am prepared just to sit there listening to your stories, no matter the subject.
Stay awesome!
Perhaps the most useful advice you have ever given.
Shooting for free or for cheap hurts the whole industry.
Please don't do it, everyone!
It has shocked me how aggressive people have become because I refuse to work for nothing.
I feel your pain!!! 40 years of self employed graphics and photography and I have done all those things and more. It’s hard to be a prick and it’s really not my style, so, I make sure I quote the job and outline ‘exactly what they are getting’. And you really do have to figure out the time needed and then add 50% more because this is reality! It will take longer than you think and once you’re working in the wee hours of the night trying to get that job out the door, and you realize you’re not making any money, you begin to hate this job and it’s bullshit, etc etc.... if you charge for the job and you’re working late, at least you’re getting paid. Also, if you actually did fly through the job and it was a breeze, you can always charge less if you wanted to be nice to a client. But even then, you would be better off charging the full amount so you make up some of the lost money on those previous 3 jobs that didn’t go so well.
Bottom line is, “charge”! You want to do this work and in order to keep doing it, you have to make money! Or, you go broke being Mr NiceGuy. Practice on your own time, but any job worth doing is the one you get paid for. :-)
Our vet is a friend. I expect to pay the going rate for service. I want her to stay in business.
This is relevant to every business that provides a service, not just photography. I run my own Civil Engineering consultancy and I make all these mistakes, too. Especially the time-underestimation one.
In my business, I track and itemise my times religiously down to the minute, I carefully review my time-related data on past projects to better understand how long things take, I give estimated time ranges rather than just one flat fee in my fee proposals to clients, and *still* I sometimes underestimate how long things will take!
And, like you two, I can have a level of "agreeableness" in the Big 5 personality traits that is too high for some situations. I therefore sometimes find myself failing to properly lead a client to understand the scope and cost of the services they need.
...and I just had someone ring me up to suggest I do a "half-hour" job for free, in the hope that I might get a larger job out of it! I am actually going to do that free "half-hour" job, despite everything stated in this video...
Oh boy, I've made a few of these before.
Thank you for the video - it just proves that it can happen to the best of us.
I live in Missouri, and I don't shoot wedding pictures. I had somebody in Aurora, Illinois (a city located 325 miles from where I live) contact me and say "we are getting married this fall, but we can't afford a real photographer... your pictures are really good, would you stop buy and shoot our wedding for us? It would be great exposure for you!" Great exposure to her friends 325 miles from where I live doing a very, very difficult type of photography I don't even do, for free... yeah, I'ma jump right on that. I could get all of the free weddings I want to take in Aurora, Illinois! Wow, that's amazing! I'm a nice guy but I'm not THAT nice.
I love how they said that they 'cannot afford a real photographer'. How did they expect you to do the job after saying that. I am glad you didn't do it. :)
I think it's time you move to Aurora and become a REAL photographer!
lmfao
Whenever I need to give an estimate on how long things will take, I find the time I think it will take and then double it. That has suited me well over the years
Being nice leads to pretty empty pockets. Been there, done that,,,OMG!
"This meal is free because we are bad negotiators..." Dead. I'm Dead.
Of the freebies I've done almost none ever help "spread the word." Or did very little to hold up their end of helping my exposure. I've found you garner more attention when you do a paid gig. I think there's something to the attractiveness of someone investing in your services that others pick up on.
Exactly!
You’re not massive screw ups.... People like to take advantage of artists
Absolutely. Also, many people assume that most items needed to provide a professional service are free. Things like i. your education to get to the level you are at; ii. the technology you had to purchase; iii. the licencing of the software that will be used at some point; iv. the vehicle requirements, housing costs (i.e rent or mortgage, taxes, hydro, etc). ALL OF THESE THINGS SO MANY PEOPLE JUST ASSUME HAVE NO COST! wtf
Honestly this is good advice for anyone who does spec work or consults. I did web consulting for time. Had a client request a name change for their website and print materials. I gave them a price and they gave the go ahead. Half way through the project they said "never mind, change it back". So I did. Then I sent them the bill for the work I did to change it and then change it back. They freaked out because to them nothing changed so it should have zero cost. Lesson? Make sure people understand that your time and expertise has value. Also love the exposure angle. Last time I checked they didn't take "exposure" at the grocery store.
Before I started doing the photography thing I was a Farrier (horseshoer) and I learned the “You know, while you’re here...” question very well. The problem is that the “little thing” they are asking about is the one that takes 10x longer than what you were there for in the first place. I also just ran into that with my new gig (re photography) when I went to shoot a “simple mobile home”. I thought no biggie. 30 minutes in and out. It was further away than most shoots so fortunately I took care of THAT extra cost. BUT...just as I was finishing the shoot (which started with one of my other favorite phrases “I don’t want to tell you how to do your job, but...” the property owner says “I need to get shots of the beach and the pier. This is a must!” So off to the beach fighting traffic and walking around in the sand. Lesson learned.
Do yourself a favor and don't ever agree to photograph an extended family (especially as a favor), You can be guaranteed half the people in the group won't want to be there and will look like they don't want to be there. If you are foolish enough to take on the job, you can count on spending several times as much time shooting and editing as you originally estimated. Group shots are hard enough without adding the fact that at least some of the group are already feeling coerced, don't like their family to begin with, and are pissed off at uncle Bob because he showed up half drunk and wearing a ratty T-shirt.
Thank you for your video! This reminds me of many situations and I'm happy to have been more resolved in some of them.
This happens not only with photography but in pretty much every sector. Many times you risk to be considered unprofessional or rude by just standing your ground, explaining that what you are being asked doesn't comply with what previously stated.
I found out early on that doing jobs for friends could go horribly wrong. I did one job reproducing some old family painted portraits for which I charged a friend an agreed fee, profitable but not excessive. It was a great success and another family member saw the results and wanted her own copies. I gave her the same price, she agreed and I (the mug!) sent her the pictures and she came back haggling about the agreed price which she said was too expensive. In the end I had to agree her reduced price which covered my material costs and not a lot more. If she had not been the aunt of my friend I would have given her hell but she exploited the fact that I would not willingly jeopardise my friendship with her niece. Avoid doing favours at all costs! Especially to friends.
"He is a very... dying dog." 😂
I'm still amateur status right now but plan to do this as business soon. I do have a story. I did some volunteer shots so no money was involved except for some small prints (I purchased....I volunteered). The client described to me how they would like the pictures. Well, based on the description of how the photos were to be used I did landscape orientation for some head shots. The client was present at the time and even watched the back of the camera as I showed the client the sharpness of the photos. I then sent thumbnail pics to client and everyone who had their pictures taken which showed the orientation. Everyone was happy so I got the pictures printed. When I gave the client the pictures the client said oh, I wanted the pictures portrait orientated instead of landscape. I have to say I was a bit upset especially since the client saw what I was doing and even saw the thumbnails in the landscape orientation. I did go back and edit for a portrait orientation but the client decided to cut them down. Lesson learned is this...never assume based on client's description what they want. I learned that clients may not know anything and I should walk them through the details of how the pictures will look and then go from there. One lesson learned and I'm sure many will follow.
I had to wait 2 months to get paid for two jobs I did for a provincial competition only to find out they were going to pay me much less than previously discussed ($28) for doing 26 hours worth of photographing. I shot about 10+ mountain bike races starting at 5AM and ending after 6PM each day. Also, the one race was in gale force winds and pouring rain (I have the aftermath swamp pics). I also had to submit the top 50 photos by the following morning (10AM).
Only to be paid peanuts.
I'm an amateur photographer trying to get into wedding photography. I charge roughly $10/hour for just the shoot, and adjust costs for prints photo album, wedding portrait and picture CD along with editing time. One shoot was Three hundred shots another only about one hundred. I'm still having problems with lighting. Many of the weddings I'm shooting are indoors with very low ceilings and reflective surfaces (VFW Halls and the like) or even wooden ceilings. Wedding table in front of the wall sized Bingo machine, not including awards all in glass frames on all walls.
Ooof. That's brutal. Lesson to take away from that is: If you're bidding out multiple days worth of work you need to get sizable deposit in advance, so that if later it all falls in the swamp you're not totally out-of-pocket.
This is exactly why I only deliver photos online. When the client have seen the photos in the Gallery they can pay and will get a link to download the photos. No payment ( as agreed ) means no photos .-)
that's right, don't be afraid to do this cause you will not get the 'peanuts' that they are offering to pay you but think it this way, you will hurt them more and shame them at the same time, next time they pull this crap, they will at least think twice.
I did a similar thing shooting a motor cross event and after making prints for the best 8 B&W shots they didn't want to pay me anything and would only give me news paper credits for the shots. I told them pay for my film and time but they wouldn't. They loved my shots. I walked away from them. I was 17 years old and learned a lot about getting things in writing that day before you do any work. I still love photography but have not perused it for a career yet.
I'm a musician. It's amazing how all these things correlate to music and getting music gigs. Did a wedding reception and after setting up all the equipment was asked "While your here" can you have the keyboard player play Here comes the bride. Unfortunately, the actual ceremony was in a different room. This required moving some equipment, just for that song. As well as the fact that having someone do the ceremony costs more money.
Great video! All aspiring photographers that want to do it for a living should watch this video.
Excellent advice..been shooting many years but just starting my business....keep up the good work!
I wonder if the clients you mentioned are listening to this today and if they're still shocked they did anything wrong?
Best 20min spent, good stories and real life scenarios. Thanx for sharing! Appreciate your generous wisdom.
I can completely relate to this. Most of these issues happen to us DJ's as well. Like Tony said, if you're gonna do something for cheap, make sure to tell them not to tell anyone. That happened to me, I did a wedding for a very young couple. I could tell I was off their budget. I just sensed it. But something told me to do it within their budget. I started asking about their guests to try to sense what type of crowd it would be. I quickly realized that most of their invites were my target demo. I took the gig, did my best, went above and beyond and needless to say, from one cheap gig, I got 6 other high end bookings that completely made up for that gig. That was a HUGE win for me! Sometimes you gotta look at cheap gigs as a business tactic/move and assess the risks and rewards. But, at the sometime, don't over do it.
This was about video production in the pre-nonlinear video editing days I made a contract with the park and recreation department of Colorado Springs to produce a 5-minute video showing a park program where homebound individuals could take part in a program that got them out of the house and engaged in different park programs. My error was not knowing that all the decisions would be made by leadership that I never met and who were nervous about how they would be held accountable. Typically this would be a nine-day shoot and edit production job. I did not set enough limits in the contract, thus nearly three years later and after many iterations, I got paid. All my future contracts were well defined.
A friend of mine had a printing business. He said that his worst customers were the largest companies. Those companies had learned long ago that the longer you put off paying your bills, the longer that money stays in their bank account and not yours. Essentially that amounts to free products or services for months. And the money that stays in their account is adding interest all that time. Why does a small business continue doing business with a large company with terrible business practices? Eventually they do get paid and they can't afford to lose a large customer even if they pay late.
Love you guys! Very practical content... Thanks very much
not a professional photographer. i just get taken advantage of by the non profits I volunteer as a photographer for.
Been there...done that. I can only assume the venue, band, caterer, flowers, etc were also donated. NOT!
One of your best videos, very honest.
I can relate with all those points you put there! Scope creep mixed with exposure can be particularly insidious. I once had a client meeting so I could quote for the job, which was a promo for the company... the job sounded exciting with the promise of a regular gig once the company started rolling doing product photography and such. So after 3 hours hearing the excited client talk to me about their ideas and their product. I got home and quoted...under quoted hoping to hook in for the long run work. Similar to the restaurant story they were shocked about how much I quoted (even though it was 30% of the real price). The client tried to hook me in on half of my quote and kept me excited on the job. Thankfully no shots were taken but many hours and emails wasted for nothing.
Great advice thanks for sharing this video. Also your videos are so professional, i've been watching you both since you started years ago and wow your YT channel is so professional & easy to watch always super clear and great sound! Thanks!
Had a 50th year naval ship reunion that I was hired for. Supposed to be 50-60 people in attendance. Turned out there was over 120 people, crew from the commissioning until being scrapped, the venue wasn't large enough to photograph everyone at the same time, and there were groups of early sailors and later sailors that didn't know each other. Separated them into pre 1960 and post 1960 crew. (note to prospective group photographers, old men can't kneel).
Shot this on film, then processed in the film in the Wing Lynch. So instead of setting the mini-lab up to run 70 prints, I had to do two setups, and bring 150 prints for 9:00AM checkout the following morning.
I was already doing this job at a reduced price, but after transportation and materials invested, I broke even.
The group invited me to photograph for them two years later, across the country, which I declined.
Great advice. I am just starting out and have already seen and made a couple of these mistakes. Thank you for sharing these so I don’t feel like the only one and can avoid other mistakes. We have to make people value our time and work. It’s hard while getting started and when you don’t want to say no to people. The key is like you said, having up front pricing and options.
Selling prints is one of the hardest things for me. I don't know how many people wanted a huge print from me but only wanted to pay $5 or ummm free. People have no idea how much it actually cost so I rarely sell prints anymore. It's depressing and makes me feel like my work is only worth $5 and who knows maybe it is, but to me....it's worth a lot more and I'm going to ask what I want.
I suggest you do the opposite and price your stuff obscenely expensive right off the bat like $1,000 to $10,000. LOL
Great advise for many fields. Chelsea you do a great job of explaining square space
No substitute for hands on experience. Thks for sharing these common pitfalls we probably wouldn't have even given a second thought, if you hadn't mentioned them.
Are you guys going to be in NYC for the Photo Expo? My story: I'm hired by an agency to shoot a promo campaign for a certain CT down town merchant's association. They outlined what they wanted to do. I prepared my price. The said "Oh No, way to expensive" I suggested cutting out certain usage like bill boards, outdoor advertising and television. Everyone was good with that. We agreed our email chain would suffice as our agreement. It was a good shoot. They were thrilled. A year later I see my images on the side of a bus and later in a TV spot.
I called the agency who informed me they no longer represented the client and the client played dumb- "Oh Really?" Then said they had no money because that was last year's budget. We ultimate settled by their "promising" to give me more work for which I would be paid handsomely . I don't think I ever was fully compensated. My lesson: a real contract with an understanding of copyright and usage.
This video made me like you both even better
I have a friend and I asked her that I could take portraits of her for my portfolio. We agreed.
The next day she brought her friends. She only want to be shot like 2 or 3 picture and she want me to take her friend’s pictures which is not in my agreement. I was so frustrated and said yes nicely. There were like 6 people on the area. It takes me an amount of time same as a family package.
The best photography video on youtube ever - pros being honest about how we all make mistakes - amazing!
Compensation by exposure is such a bullshit, there's never benefit from that even if there is exposure, money talks bullshit walks, pay or bye bye. But yeah, all of us that are in photography went through all scenarios that you mentioned, but that is growing up
Yeah, that's crap in every business. Try and go to a restaurant and tell them you'll stream live as you eat so they get *exposure* and you'll eat and drink for free for 2 hours... see how it goes ;)
@@StefanoPapaleo-TS indeed 😂😂
So true !! I was a Wedding photographer for 25 years and people where always trying to do exactly what you talked about in this video !! I am glad I am not alone Thank you for these videos.
Well said Northrups! So spot on! So much going down memory lane..
I'm glad you made this video... I'm a Dj and a photographer and in both fields people want you to donate your time and skills for no charge. By far you have to be smart and say no even if you want to do it for them. Love your videos
All these things can be applied to ANY business, I own a pool business and can relate to every one of your scenarios. Great tips for anyone not just photographers.
Yes, yes, yes! Always price upfront or at a bare minimum, give a realistic range. I've done this a couple of times and the post negotiation process is always much worse. Thankfully, I didn't lose out but it was much more uncomfortable for both parties.
"You don't want to scare them off."
If it's otherwise going to cost me money to shoot then I reeeeeally want to scare them off.
My wife multiplies all my estimates by 3.......seems solid
I've heard that before. I did some work for an independent construction guy long ago, and that's how he told me he priced jobs. Figure out your best estimate and triple it.
Maybe if I'd listened to him I'd have made more money in construction. :(
1. You have a wise wife!
2. Your smart for listening to her :^)
3. Don''t tell her I said #1 & #2. It'll go to her head and you'll never live it down. (hee hee)
4. Don't tell my wife I said any of this :^D
the idea of presenting different packages to customer is a novel one it makes things easier. thanks for the tip
So true. I know this discussions regarding photography. Thank you so much for your constant video channel! Awesome!
As usual a great video from you guys; and just wanted to say that you make such a lovely couple!!!
Oh my goodness! Glad I am not the only one who has made these mistakes lol.
I started out with no plan other than to charge what the other photographers do. I learned quickly that their model was not for me because I am interested in providing that quality image and not just a quick one. So I took a step back and dedicated some time to learning and developing. That’s what I am doing right now and all of your podcasts and tutorials have been so helpful. Thanks!
I went to my bank manager the other day and asked him if they accept exposure dollars, unfortunately, he said no. so I had to give him real money. Sad reactions only, please.
A friend of mine always lists every "accomodation" on her bills as line items, i.e. "two hours travel time, $150......No Charge" so if you're giving anyone a break, you're letting them know they've already got it. And that makes them more reluctant or ashamed to beg for more.
Yeah, great advice.
I can totally relate to everything you guys talked about, it has happened to me too many times. Sometimes its been my fault and other times its been the clients fault. My last situation was with a friend's wedding, i went from being the photographer to wedding assistant and family driver.
Thank you for such openness. What you said happened to me so many times. We suckered by our own passion in photography. That little bit more mean the longer set up and post production time too. I have been in professional photography since 1986 and even last week someone said to me, you get the exposure. 😱
I've never gotten so much as an email message from "exposure".
This is great stuff here, you guys sharing your not so good experiences and moments in photography as a means of an income, I am all ears here, listening. I am an amateur photographer who really likes to shoot with vintage gear, mostly lenses, and I have what it takes for party events, family portraits etc but sell myself short based off my inexperience and fear that people will be offended, the thing is I enjoy shooting people and get a kick out of it, it offsets me further in getting a good price across the board.
Getting paid.... I have tales to tell. I have definitely underprice on many occasions (and I still do that). But... I have only once -- in 25+ years -- been paid less than 100% of what I was owed. That one occasion, the client was in Connecticut and I was in NYC, which meant that litigation would take place in CT. That gave them the only advantage they had. I settled for about 75% of the originally agreed amount to avoid hiring a lawyer in Connecticut.
So, my 5+ bits on getting paid:
1. Agree -- in writing -- in advance. That includes a breakdown of amounts and what each amount covers. It also includes language that makes clear what happens if they do not pay on time, and makes clear that I (we, the artists) retain all copyright privileges unless a right is expressly transferred (and that costs money).
2. Charge a retainer. Some amount, perhaps a third or a quarter of the expected total. That means they've committed, and it means you have a record of their engagement in case they want to pretend nothing was ever agreed.
2. There is something about being a creative that leads clients to think, "Hey, payment is always on spec." Was that meal at the restaurant on spec? "I'm sorry, I didn't really like this meal; so, I'm only going to pay 25% of what the menu says." Never do work on spec. (Like that line from Joker in the Batman movie: "If you're good at something , never do it for free.")
3. Overages. Clients need to know that changes in scheduling or in content will lead to higher costs. They want you to be on time, but for some reason, they think that they can take however much time they like. Then, "Why aren't you finished?!" ... "Uhhh, because you only gave me feedback yesterday..."
4. When the payment is really late, and you have sent a polite letter or email more than once, there are options:
a. A demand letter from a lawyer;
b. If the amount is small, small claims court is possible (a poor option, since even with a judgement in your favor, you still need to recover the amount);
b. Show up in person, be polite, and lobby for payment. The can do wonders. It's harder to ignore a person when they are right in front of you;
c. If (b) doesn't work, you can use the technique of a 6ft 4in cinematographer friend of mine: "Payment isn't ready? That's okay. I'll be waiting for you when you leave work today." This is the New York City Payment Plan.
5. Always be polite, especially when they get rude. (And you might find yourself recording conversations.)
6. And don't do work for friends.
7. And always charge something, even for pro bono work. The lower the price, the more clients tend to think it should be free.
I am a baby photographer based in the near capital region of India. I normally shoot at client's home. My biggest problem is a "shoot time". Since I have to photograph small babies, I am finding it very difficult to analyse/predict how much time will it take to finish a complete shoot. That is majorly due to the unpredictable nature of babies (Which is obvious). Even though if I ask basic questions from the parents before scheduling a photoshoot time like "whats the best time during the day when your baby is more playful and happy?" and we try to follow the prescribed time window...babies are very unpredictable. I have even spent 6-7 hours for a single photoshoot of one baby. But, its good to see a smile on paren't faces when I show them the edited pictures. So, do you have any tips for me on how I can minimise the shoot time?
I think it falls into some sort wild life photography, you just can't predict how much time you need to take the shot... Just charge it like a worst case scenario... If it turn out faster then you can throw some freebies for them... Extra print or something... They will be happy and you get less headache...
@@alphaxfang True Very True. Thanks
Just know that the parents appreciate your work, thats a good thing, they will pay what you ask for that way, as for time, like Alphaxfang said its unpredictable, whatever you are doing is the best thing - asking the parents the vital information to get into that timeframe where the baby will be most lively, they will appreciate that, it shows you value time and want a success out of the photoshoot. GOOD LUCK
Reminds me of an old friend who was a commercial artist. He was a member of a church group who wanted something done, probably a brochure or something. They asked him if he could do it. He did the estimate, produced the quotation and sent it to the group. The next time he visited the church he was aware that the atmosphere was very frosty. The quotation was never mentioned and, as he had suspected all along they really expected him to do it for free. However, as he stated, this is his career.
I have backed myself up to the butt kicking machine more than I care to talk about! 😩
Thank you for sharing!
I had an air-to-air photoshoot over the South Sound of Seattle with vintage warbirds back before digital in the early 2000's. The client said "while you're here, we can do a second photo mission with my other airplane." This other airplane turned out to be twice the speed of the photo ship which, unlike most photography, is actually dangerous. The shoot was pulled off and in the end, the client offered what they thought was a generous $250 for a half day shoot, photoship rental and several days of post to make promos for their warbird experience company. An expensive but otherwise fun/challenging lesson.
Reminds me of my accounting jobs in manufacturing. You almost need to create a spreadsheet reminding you to review ALL of your costs. FOR EACH JOB. Don't forget your other costs, accounting, taxes, ... Then review on at least a monthly basis.
Also, sad, but true. EMBEZZLEMENT. yes.
I delivered newspapers as a kid. The owner of a local food market a block off my route was a customer. Although his family was almost always at the house on the route on days I collected my payments I had to walk to the market and wait in line, and for other interruptions to see him for payment. We eventually hashed out a 6-10 collections a year program.
Really great video. Fabulous insight. Well done Tony and Chelsea.
you aren't suckers, you are good people, we need more people in this world
Very relatable. Not everyone has the same sense of integrity, re. honouring verbal agreements. A few appreciate the level of work we will put in to achieve professional results. Interesting how the people closest to me, family and close friends, people I am happy to shoot for free or at special ‘mates rates’, are often insistent they pay me more! Perhaps though that is because they appreciate more the work and time I put in.
Conversely, there are those you’ve met once at an event or whose mum’s wedding you shot 15 years previous who expect you to offer similarly friendly rates. Social media is worst for this. People who contact me via Facebook usually referrals seem of the mind I will be more flexible with my rates, presumably because it’s a social platform and us photographers are such a friendly amicable bunch aren’t we ;)
I absolutely love the podcasts but I ALWAYS wind up just watching them after on UA-cam
What would you recommend to someone with 4yrs of experience in videography and photography with no classroom training or degree?
Where do you start? How does one get exposure?
love it! things to beware of as a creator...appreciated! In answer to Chelsea's 'What am I going to do?" - In Australia we have a thing called 'mates rates'...lower than your regular rates but set so you at least don't make a loss and maybe you can make a smaller than usual profit. This acknowledges both your business interest and your friendship. Hope this helps!
Good stuff. Wish this came out years ago when I was starting out.
You two are always so on point with your thumbnails.
Yep, been there done that. Applies to any service.
my first "sweet 16" , was basically all for nothing. we went from pricing for shooting the event, to a rehearsal pre-shoot, a video pre-shoot, and then the event. AND.... she asked for the rawfiles. i was so happy to get a paying gig, i just did everything. she gave me a $50 tip with my ask of $300. took me 4 days to edit more than 270 images combined. two years later she did hire me again for her husbands birthday. i got my fair price and still got a tip. but we had the discussion first. and agreed on the price, and because she gave me the tip up front, i offered a couple freebies.. my best part of a shoot is actually the editing. i can turn garbage into gold with lightroom and PS. many lessons learned!!
Listening this podcast while editing a / that won t take long photo session/ , I want to cry. Thanks for your tips!
Great video, so nice to see you both together ...
I had a client who asked me to attend a medical conference paid for by a pharmaceutical company. Job went well no problems supplied the photos and my invoice. The phone went and my client said I can't accept the invoice and my immediate thought was oh no another non payer. She continued the phone call saying if I pass the invoice on they won't believe me, give me an invoice and double it. Happy photographer happy client. I have been lucky despite making all the mistakes you have talked about. I have been able to work at what I am passionate about just about my whole life!
Great video. My very first wedding videography job (for a friend) was a 2 camera set up (which required hours of post) for the ceremony and one camera for the reception. I charged my friend only $250. During the ceremony his sister asked me how much I was charging. I told her. She said "You are charging $250 for 3 hours worth of work!!" I couldn't believe it. That was 10+ years ago. I don't do weddings anymore..I digitize old home movies. But now I never apologize for my prices. If they ask for discounts etc, I simply say "I don't discount my work." Great information you provided in your video for any business not just photography.
One more story.. I digitize home movies. One lady brought me in her VHS to DVD recorder manual and said she's tried to do it herself but keeps getting error messages..would I help her figure it out? I'm sure your mechanic will show you how to fix your brakes too. That's the other thing to be wary of, people who want your help to figure out your craft for free.
I hear ya! My first AND LAST wedding photography / videography. A friend was eloping and just wanted some walking down the aisle photos and video, a video of the vows, a couple photos of the kiss and signing; sounded easy enough since the venue had 20 minute bookings and was a couple hours drive away (I agreed to do it for $100 to essentially cover gas)! WRONG! Turns out the brides sister had found out about the elopement and the father and mother had secretly booked a church for the ceremony and a catered garden venue for the reception, to which they both turned to me and asked "can you please do our photos / videos for the rest of the most important day of our lives?"!! What can you say to that :/
My reply to "scope creep" YES! ...I'll be happy to do that, let me quickly prepare a shot list changer order and I'll need a signature. I'll get right on it.