*A few points of clarification:* 1) "Modern" technique could also be called "proper" riding technique, regardless of your bike's geo. 2) I recommend a "modern" technique on all bikes, not just "modern" bikes. 3) "Modern" technique is REQUIRED to ride modern bikes in control. You can't ride a modern bike well with old-school technique. 4) "Old school" technique is possible on old school geo, but modern technique on an old-school geo is even better. 5) Not all "new" bikes are "modern" 6) "Modern" bikes aren't best for everyone or every trail (but modern technique is). 7) What's a "modern" bike by my definition? I'm classifying "modern" hardtails as bikes with a 65* hta or slacker, and reaches longer than 440mm for a size med, or 470 for a size large. 8) Geometry charts only tell part of the story. I've found a few bikes that look perfect on paper, but they don't ride right at all. Nothing beats a test-ride.
Steve, this was a very unique subject matter and it drove a point very well for me. I must learn a modern style of riding because i am old school. I have NOT SEEN anyone else explain differences as clearly as you just did... well done. I HOPE TO SEE MANY MORE VIDEOS LIKE THIS. Thanks!!!!
@@gastonuzc Thanks Gaston. I'll keep trying to highlight the differences. There are a lot of online coaches who explain these differences extremely well, but most people don't know about online MTB coaching. I'll do my best to keep creating similar content.
Thanks Jeff, that means a lot. It was a challenge trying to figure out how to explain/demonstrate it, but I'm proud of how it turned out. A lot of people, especially hardtail riders, have an old school riding style and I wanted to be able to distinguish when doing reviews.
@@hardtailparty This video was amazing. Im getting my first modern geo full suspension bike soon and im glad I saw this to put me in the right mindset. Otherwise it would have been at least a month of issues before I hopefully figured out the riding position.
@@hardtailparty I have a specialized hardrock 2012, I assume it's a traditional geo, cause of it's quite a steep headtube. I'm quite short though but pick up a size up model making the reach feels actually long but I'm used to it and having fun with it. Now I'm thinking of buying a more modern bike, I want to change my style first. Mine, I think it's kinda in between but more towards old style, but not super to the back. Can I do more new style with my hardrock? Sometimes my body just bring the weight back because the back is jumping on the rocky descent section. Should I wait till I got a new bike? Or am I just being to sceptical?
of the 30-40 bike videos i have watched this year, this one BY FAR has given me the most to think about. i almost feel like this should be on a loop in bike stores
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I'm an old... old school rider and notice my bike and I don't perform well when I get lazy and stop attacking the trail and let my body position go back to the old school ways. Thanks for explaining it in a very relatable way.
You're spot on. Fatigue makes us want to relax, and modern bikes don't do so well when we're in a relaxed stance. O notice that a lot on long days. Thanks for bringing this up, it's super important.
@@hardtailparty This detail clicked for me as well, all my recent crashes have been when I have been going to a relaxed ride and not pushing it (not in an attack position)
@@danielmcgowan9534I mean.... that's what I remember about putting too much weight on the bar with a 120mm stem and a 72 deg. head angle. Lotsa endos.
I've been riding old school hardtails for quite some time and just recently got an awesome modern FS All-Mountain from my awesome wife. I was super confused as to how this ultra modern bike felt a lot worse riding it than an old "outdated" hardtail, but watching this video now it REALLY clicks! this makes a TON of sense! thank you so much for explaining this. I will start trying to change my ride style to fit the new bike geometry and get more fun out of it! Cheers from Sweden!
When i started riding, my friends told me to put my butt over the back wheel when descending. A few years later i realized how much this was holding me back. No chance to get around a corner in the steeps if your arms are fully stretched out. I actually learned about modern technique from watching downhill worldcup races. I always try to push the front wheel in to the ground as much as possible now and look for little natural features like roots or rocks in the apex of the corner that i can slam the front tire into so i dont slip. Think of it like a mini berm. When i go riding with friends who are new to the sport the most important advice i give them is to always hover over the bars with an angle in the elbows and knees and drop the heels. After that they usually ride pretty gnarly stuff on their first ride without problems and love it!
I'm 45, I started riding again after a nearly decade long trail running break, beacause of my little boy who just started it, he is 4. Yesterday I crashed big time with my new, modern geo hardtail. Now I understand why. Thank you. The oldschool style looks better though. I'm new to this channel, but I love your content man! Rediscovering this world is such a great experience.
Adjusting to modern bikes is incredibly hard, especially as someone who now is riding on a modern hardtail and who rode (in the 90s and early 2000s) on fully rigid bikes.
Definitely an in-betweener. Have had my "modern" bike for about 7 months now, and keep reminding myself that it's safe (and faster/smoother) to lean forward on the descents.
If you begin to feel unstable on descents the modern style is to get low. Drop your chest towards the bars, lower center of gravity = more stable. Getting low does reduce your range of movement however, that's where the skill is involved in riding, constantly changing position based on the trail. happy spinning
This was a really interesting topic. Over the years I found I'm really uncomfortable on any bike with a long reach. My back and neck prefers a more upright riding position. Your video answered why I've kept my "current" bike (late 90s early 2000 frame). I've ridden friends modern my bikes many times and never felt the urge/need to buy a modern geometry bike. My bikes components have been upgraded and tweaked to the point that only the frame is original (it's a hard tail). I've never felt that my older geometry prevented me from keeping up with a group. I can see where a more modern geometry would be huge in a bike park setting with steep downhills and flying off big features. But as I have zero interest in that kind of riding, I prefer natural trails and no lifts or lines. So, at least for now I'll stay ooold school and upgrade when I have to.
This is spot on. Once I bought a “New geo” bike I did not think to change my technique at all and was washing out constantly. It took a couple of years to figure out why that was, I wish I would have watched some proper tutorials on how to corner by weighting the front wheel. I’m a ton more dialed now but I feel like is the longest journey to master. It’s fun making incremental improvements though! Great Vid, keep it Dialed in!
Awesome vid! I’m in my mid 50s and have been riding Mtn bikes since the earl 80s. Racing bmx before that. I really appreciate you spelling out these differences. And creating awesome video demonstrations. I’ve found myself weighting the front of my older full suspension bike more and more. And now look forward to trying that on a modern hard tail. Great work!
I started riding in the late 90s and remember a bike mag giving tips on climbing and descending. It said that on the real steep stuff that you might even have to rest your chest on your saddle 😂 We’ll to be fair, it did work back then. But now going from a 72 ht angle to a 65, it’s time to adjust my riding style. Thanks for the tips!
well that explains alot i think my style is mostly oldschool since ive mainly ridden old bikes and always preferred them, ive been trying to ride in a more modern style and been finding it awkward and it didnt occur to me my bikes just arent built to be ridden like that. id give modern bikes another chance if i could afford one lol
I've always been between a medium and large in most brands and always preferred the large. While I've never had a super slack HTA, I think the longer reach has put me in the middle of the two techniques. The two different descents down that obstacle was eye opening!
I recommend checking reach numbers to determine your size. According to trek, I would be on an XL stache to get the reach measurement I get on a med RSD middle child. So a bike manufacturer's recommendation isn't usually especially helpful.
Great content. I’m a total old school rider. We need to get to and do some of this comparison with some of my vintage bikes. I think a lot of folks with with full squish modern bikes have forgotten how to ride an old school bike or never learned so when they do try one they just don’t get it.
Actually since I have my new giant reign 2019 I felt like the old school way of riding didn't fit the bike and was trying to figure out a better riding position. This video is really helpful even if you know what you are doing because you show both ways and the differences
The "new" geometry/technique seems to depend on using a dropper post. Getting low and over the front on rough steeps without a dropper is asking for an endo, and "old" technique developed more because of this then because of bike geometry. On the other hand I find "new" slack and long geometry to be more tiring for longer rides; too much loading on the upper body. For hours long trail rides give me old school geometry every time, and add a dropper post and keep your weight centered in the rough.
There's no doubt droppers have made a huge change in proper riding position. For my friends and I, in the 90s, we'd ride with our seats all the way down more than all the way up. But the geo still didn't ride like today's geo. I agree that on longer rides these new bikes can often be tiring, especially if the reach is super long. For my bikepacking bikes, I prefer a slack head angle with a medium reach and a dropper post for that very reason.
The dropper post really changed how I cornered too even on a more traditional bike (69 .05 HTA, 79mm trail , 436mm reach in a size large). Being able to lean the bike in underneath you without the seat in the way really lets you steer with the legs. Still doesn't come quite as naturally to me or the bike but its incredible how many subtle differences that one component makes. I like the nuance in this video though, really interested to try out more modern geo someday.
Ha! You've nailed that for me! I've just got back on a bike for the first time since 2009. I've really struggled with corners, berms, hitting steep rock gardens and not constantly losing my front wheel and it's this. So chuffed I watched this.
Well I'm definitively old school when I see your position going down these stairs I feel dizzy :) But when I see the modern cornering technique it feels like agressive carving on skis, I love it. Very interesting to hear that a Honzo or and Chameleon are not considered modern bikes. I ride a 26" wheels cannondale with a long stem over the front wheel, and the 29" with short stems and slacker head tubes all seem modern to me !
Thanks so much for this. After being mostly out of mountain biking for a bunch of years, getting back into it has been a little daunting. Still riding a *steep* (72* head) 10 year old Jamis hardtail, which I thought was great for the technical climbing I like. However, I have never been great on downhill, and have noticed my confidence has been going down the older I get (47). Seeing your explanations and demonstrations of modern geometry has me convinced about going slack and how it would help me a lot towards feeling better on my bike, so I am starting to look into taking the plunge. Modern technology is also showing me the shortcomings of my current bike and how it is probably really holding me back. Thanks, I love your enthusiasm for hardtails and am really glad there is such a following for them still. Cheers.. Alex
I'm still running an old bike (26", frame from early 2010s), so the riding style that suits it is more on the trad side. But I'll be taking note of the points made here. Anyway riding is a continuous learning process. Great video as usual!
Thank you for your good advice and reviews. I am 54 and coming back into the sport. A ‘92 Bontrager (with static fork) was my last new bike. I was considering retiring from trail riding because I was getting so beat up. Because of your review of the specialized fuse I picked up a used ‘21. The geo was was an adjustment, felt completely foreign with the pitched forward position and wide bars. But I find myself centered on the bike as opposed to my butt hanging off the back on my old bike. Dropper posts are a game changer, truly a safety feature and unlocking the potential of a sloping top tube. My old Bontrager is collecting dust in the garage. It looks and feels like a clown bike now.
I bought my first MTB in 1988 and have had many old school bikes over the years. I recently built a new hardtail (first ever bike build) and it really is a whole different world in riding. I built a 2019 Specialized Fuse with Pike fork, Hope Fortus wheels, GX crankset blah blah blah. I feel much more stable and confident than I ever did on my old GT hardtail. After watching this, I realize I was riding my old GT as if it was modern geo. I always felt on the edge of losing it. Of course my new ride has 2.6" 29ers compared to the old 1.9" 26er. Thats a huge difference alone. Then I have always had riding habits from my old bmx freestyle days. Lots of street riding and half pipe back in the 80's. Thanks for the videos. I just recently discovered your channel. Cheers from Tucson
Thats exactly whts happening to me, i got a Marin San Quentin 2 days a go and the very first trail ride i took it into it just felt super odd... Thank you for the amazing content.
Those bikes feel odd even with modern technique. My advice is to get a set of riser bars for it (at least 40mm rise), that should fix most of the odd feeling. San Quentins have a super low stack and they require you to be more hunched over than ideal. Once you fix the low stack with a riser bar, you can add some modern technique and unlock that bike's potential.
@@hardtailparty thanks for the tips on the San Quentin! I am building one and will adjust my bar plan. 40mm rise sounds odd, but I trust your recommendation.
I'm riding a San Quentin too, and I have the maximum spacers under the stem and my bars are at the same height as my girlfriend's bars with the stem slammed. Maybe I should swap out the stock bars for a higher rise.
Modern geo made me stop riding one of my classic bikes , which is my 1992 KONA Hei Hei that no longer goes in the woods as its now an urban BMX , rail trail queen since about 2015 as I no longer enjoy feeling like i'm going to endo while going downhill. Other than that my old bike is perfect in an urban/city environment as its very light and small.
I've learned a ton from you, Steve. Both your videos and the one ride we did together. I took my new krampus out last night and I feel like I'm definitely in between these two riding styles. Getting better for sure.
So, how do I recognize if my bike has modern geometry? At which point is it called modern? I think i ride very tradintional and I want to know if I should ride more modern and if my bike would handle this. Thnaks for help
This is one of the most useful MTB videos I have EVER seen! You did an amazing job of distilling the content into something anyone can understand. With that said, I now want an olde Skool bike!!
Great video. I still find myself falling into my old riding habits from the early 90's on my Giant Iguana and Marin Rocky Ridge Hardtails. Haha. About 5-6 years ago when I got my first aggressive modern geo Commencal Meta AM Hardtail it took me a long time to figure out what I was doing wrong. I still feel like I am getting use to the more modern geo but I definitely feel way better than back in the 90's.
I have a 2019 Santa Cruz chameleon and had thought I might of been using "old school technique (just didn't think about what I was doing) but looked at a video today of me going down a super steep decently long decent 30 - 40 feet straight down, and was surprised to see I had my elbows bent and hunched in a bit on the front
Thanks for making this video. I am loving the geometry of my Karate Monkey. My first serious mountain bike upgrade in nearly 30 years..... I do feel like I am learning to ride all over again.
You can still adopt a lot of these techniques with your dropper up, it's just a lot harder. Check out Nino's technique. That dude can hipost better than I can ride with a dropper.
I just moved from a 2012 Nukeproof Mega to a new Trek Roscoe 9 and it feels like a bit of a runaway train on the steep stuff, so I'm definitely going to try these techniques. Thanks for the video!
This video explained so much to me! As a cross between an Old School and an UN-schooled MTB rider, I've recently gone from a 90's-ish, 26" wheel bike to a late 2000's 29-er hardtail. O.M.G. - it's been a love-hate relationship these past few months. I knew it was a lot longer as soon as I went to put it in my SUV. It doesn't fit unless I turn the front wheel perpendicular to the floor. It's also taller with those big wheels. I feel like I've gone from riding a pony to a giraffe. Just handling it on the ground is a challenge. Trying to take a tight turn has been downright scary. Still - I do like how stable it feels going downhill over bumps, and it climbs better than anything I've ever owned. Your video gives me a new insight as to what I should be doing with my body as I try to master this behemoth of a bike. I've been riding a few stairs, and was trying to sit way back, Old School style. Now I'm going to practice what you demonstrated here, and I hope to become more comfortable riding chunky downhill stuff. Thank you!
I think I’m a maybe in between. I’ve learned the hard way that modern geo requires forward position when cornering. On the steep stuff like in Sedona though I still have a tendency to get back over the rear tire otherwise I feel like I’m going to otb. After watching this though I’m going to try to be mindful of that and try to get down and more forward. Thanks for sharing!
I put a 29er on the front of my 2016 Levo noticeably increasing the slack. Since then I’ve found I naturally ride in your modern forward style. Good Stuff Steve. You have become a go to guy for MTB riding (and reviews).
Aaaah, how did I miss this one? Yes, this is exactly how I felt going from my XTC to my Blue Pig. The "get back behind the back wheel" descending style is 100% me. I just found some more or less deserted trails on the way to work, so I'll be practicing these techniques more as we get more daylight. Thanks Steve!
I actually think the new riding style is more neutral, in the bike per se, even though it is more forward relative to the old, behind the rear wheel style. Great video and great side by side comparisons.
Still learning, but would you approach the 2022 Specialized Fuse with the old school/traditional or modern riding style? I imagine it'll be the latter (modern riding) style.
I was an old school, early '90's hard tail rider and didn't know squat about technique (strictly self-taught) but recently, I bought a new hard tail and took it to a 2 day core fundamentals clinic and wow! Before: I couldn't handle switchback turns. Now: with proper technique, much easier. Before: I used to wash out on turns. Now: with proper technique, so much more confident and sticking those turns. Before, I could climb ok, but it was so painful. Now: with proper technique, less painful when climbing and I can go longer uphill. Bottom line: the better one's technique, the better your performance will be on the trail and I dare say, the modern geometry lends itself well to these techniques. Awesome video!
Totally agree! I love hearing stories like this. Sometimes those of us who have been riding the longest need the most help from clinics. It's hands down the best money spent on a bike.
Thanks for covering this topic. I thought it was just me struggling with new bike geometry, lol ... I've kinda stumbled into how these bikes like to climb, but I never would have figured out the decents. Thanks very much for the demonstrations!
My bike is a 1997 Stumpjumper...so pretty much old school everything. I am considering a new bike since technology has changed so much...but I haven't decided on one.
Really interesting. My main issue with long reach bikes is back ache so I prefer slightly shorter reach, pushing the saddle forward, rolling bars back. But having the front contact patch further in front plus a progressive suspension fork really helps attacking steeps rather than backing off.
I've always ridden more active and over the front...but it wasn't until I bought my FS (Status 160) that it clicked. It's longer, lower and slacker than most bikes out there...I quickly found I had to be more forward, more committed and more aggressive...and man does it work well.
Yes. I see you points. Wheel size too. Smaller frames if you want a more playful bike, toss-able bike. I’m old school, having many , many , 26” wheel size - on medium frames… bikes most would consider to small for me. They always say I belong on a large, but I prefer medium. I’m gearing up for a new, high $$,$$$.$$ bike, and am dithering on large or medium frame size. Dithering because I don’t toss ‘‘em around like I used to. Currently I split my riding between a 26” Epic medium size (old school geo) , and a 29” Jumpy Evo in Large (modern geo). …. Large or medium “modern” is my next ride is the big question. ;)
You did a very good job explaining this, I think many people will need to experience it, to really appreciate the difference. I washed out my front end the first few rides on my new bike. I actually have found that, for me, the climbing position actually took me a few months to adapt my muscles , where I felt like I was able to put out the same power for the same time. It's a interesting transition the industry is making, but I feel like it's one that is for the better. Now if they could just decide on a hub standard, that wouullddd be greeeeattt..
Thanks! This is very interesting. Went from older geometry to a long, slack and low bike and crashed several times due to the front wheel washing out. “Bad bike”, “Wrong size” and I bought a new one. The same feel with the new one. Now I’m starting to adopt the new riding technique and found an “in between bike” with less extreme geometry (compared to my old ones) and things work out better now. This edit made it even clearer for me !
Where do lines blur between old skool and modern geo…when would a head angle / reach be considered modern vs old? My Stanton Slackline has a HA of 66.5( sagged )and a 460 reach. I’d say these are fairly conservative numbers looking at modern bikes, especially aggressive hardtails, but it sure is a lot different to riding my 1990’s 2000’s Kona hardtails.
Steve. Great video. Could you comment on head angle vs reach? I have a 68.5 head angle bike and a 66 one. The reach of the 68.5 is longer and I feel it’s a better all rounder. Is it just me and do you think the reach might be a bigger factor in placing the rider centered ?
I'm a total newb (an aging one at that) and the thought of going over that kind of obstacle with my weight shifted forward like that terrifies me! I know it's the right way to go and it's really just a confidence issue on my part, but I can't seem to help going way back behind my rear tire... I need to stop doing that.
my man! I think I too am using too much of our 90s technique, that we all mid 30s and up learned. I think I have to dig in more into the downer part of these sections! Stoked to be doing this on my upcoming NS Scout Expert with 29" wheels! Definitely following you, until you stop with these videos some day.
Wow! I really needed this and it makes sense. I went from an 2018 trek Marlin (old school) to a 2023 trek roscoe and now it looks I got to relearn my riding style a bit. I already picked up on some techniques but this is gold and explains a lot! I actually sized down on my roscoe and shorten the stem I love how it rides, I guess in the future I could go back with the longer stem for more reach but I think it’s good for now.
Old school rider here on a Trek 7000 w/ Marathon SL fork. Just jumping back in the ring again on trail riding. Still getting it done with current setup. Also looking at possibly getting a new ride. Hard to determine style of riding, it varies depending on the terrain. I enjoy wooded trails with varying climbs and decent. Definitely sticking with hardtail bikes. Just have always enjoyed them from the 80s until now. I still love my '98 frame and '04 fork combo. Still maintain it myself and had fallen away from riding for quite sometime. Some cool local trails have gotten me out there and maybe more as I get used to riding again. Seen more modern bikes, but totally unsure on moving to one just yet. All your videos have been a great source of information.
Great video and just subscribed. I relate to the old school riding; I rode in the 90’s 95 Stumpjumper with Judy fork. I just picked up new Specialized Status, slack and long. On the rock section and putting your weight forward, I find myself weighing the front tire to much where it get caught or stuck on rocks. This causes me to be thrown forward almost going over the bars. How do I keep this from happening? Thank you
Great vid. Just bought my first modern geo bike - a Trek Roscoe. First ride out on the trails, I noticed some strange handling up and down some punchy tech stuff. Moved a little forward in my attach position and it was like magic. My old short wheelbase FS 26’er had me doing funny things.
I come from riding freestyle BMX and don't really have anyone else I ride with so my technique has kinda been all over the place. This video really helped. I watched this video a few weeks back, and my mtb I thought was WAY too big for me now feels tolerable standing. The seat tube angle is still way too slack for seated climbing, but that's not as big of an issue on most of the trails I ride.
I went from a 2007 Kona Stinky that was a little small for me (and had a 100+mm stem!) to a 2020 Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol, so I've had to adapt, but it's been so much fun, speed doesn't feel as sketchy, the GG is oodles more capable on the climbs, and of course it's also about 7-8 pounds lighter, so that helps too. I'm sure I could still use some riding technique coaching though, as I probably do ride too far back sometimes.
Thanks for the tips! I read a Banshee Paradox V3 after watching your review. I love it!! Off topic. What layer do you wear under your collared club ride shirts. I have a long sleeve and wear just a tank top. Jersey under feels wierd. Thanks
This style works your shoulders and triceps. Have a killer Scott Spark RC that I wasn’t in love with after 5-6 rides. Then I discovered a few videos like this…wow what a difference. I felt in the pocket as a drummer would say, locked in with my bike the other day. Bike felt plush and blasted through stuff much faster than with old school style. Great video.
Whouuuuuuu!! I knew u were about to show me something that my mind didnt know about! Ive been saving up to pick up a hardtail but im an old school rider. I'm above 40 now but in my head im still that teenager from the 90s who rode down stairs and did all those stunts and climbed uphill better than the average person in india... And then i see YOU climb up that rock face like that and im blown away. And shifting your weight onto the handlebars like that, whoa! I believe i used to try and keep my weight off my bicycle back then to 'protect' it so to speak. But i reckon these new bikes can easily take on heavy weight without breaking. This video was an eye opener for me. Watched those slow-moz several times and suddenly realized that time has changed things. Beautiful engineering! Thank you for making this video for us!
Really good vid. I think I've been more of a modern style rider on old school bikes. Unfortunately that meant a super long stem with the uncomfortableness of having the front wheel too close. Also always descending hanging over the back wheel. I'm 62 and still riding my Dean Colonel and Scout from mid 1990's. What do you do with a really nice Ti frame when modern geo has moved on? Still like the intimacy to the ground with 26" wheels. I know it's time to change, so..... will have to start the search soon. Ti is still my fave ride, but the prices have gotten ridiculous. Really enjoy your channel. BTW: Love hardtails. Actually I love hard nose too. Wanna learn to ride really well? Hard nose, hard tail. Nice thing about a hard nose is there is no dip in the front end when descending. It also makes you use your upper body very differently. You have to be much stronger to muscle the bike through tough descents. Give it a try some time. I rode for about 15 years before ever having a front fork w/shock. It's a great work out and teaches a lot about bike handling.
Thanks for this, it's a hard habit to break when back in the day getting forward meant Endo-city. I just try to keep my weight on my pedals and let the bike do the work! Kids these days don't know how good they have it! Get off my lawn!!
Haha. So true. My first bike was a 1988 Jamis Dakota fully ridged machine. My first rides were SlickRock, Porcupine Ridge, and Poison Spider Mesa in Moab. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven I had so much fun. I still remember being amazed that a bike could be ridden off road like that. To this day, I haven’t put as many miles on a single bike as I did that Jamis. From Cape Cod to California to Colorado, Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming, I rode that bike everywhere. And I walked to school in the snow!!
This is a great video, and I'm saying that as someone who has been cycling and racing/competing since the mid '90s. My last mountain bike was a '99 Santa Cruz Chameleon, and then I rode trials for many years, and then I did road, and recently I got back into mountain biking in Colorado and have a 2021 27.5 Timberjack GX, which I absolutely love right now. It's important to note that the geometry and components play together and evolve together. If you had told me 20 years ago that my mountain bike would have a 66* head tube and a short stem, I'd ask what you were smoking. But, when that comes together with the rest of the geometry changes plus 27.5"x2.8" wheels that substantially impact stability and performance at speed, the whole thing starts to make sense. I'm amazed at the stability at speed caused by rotating wheels that are far heavier than anything I have ever ridden with, even as a trials rider. These modern bikes, when they go fast, the stability is great. We never had that in the '90s unless you increased the head tube angle and had a long stem. The wheels I used to ride on feel flimsy now.
I'm definitely old school when it comes to steering, but I'm trying to do the newer way. Not really sure how I go down.. probably more center. Only time I'll stretch my bum to the wheel like that is if it's a fast down hill. I lean over my handle bars for climb because even though I have an old geo( 2000ish marin bobcat) I use 90mm stem with a 34degree backswap handlebar....this makes me pop a wheely if I just stay center/seated.
‘Modern” seems close to how I ride my endurance road / gravel bike which is mainly turning and attacking with the entire body steering / shifting weight where needed. Even the corning example is close to how I ride my drop bar; body forward and leaning to compensate. Would this be a fair analysis?
Yikes. I've never heard of getting over the front like this. Every person tells me get my butt back. Mind blown. You looked way less "bucking bronco" with modern technique
This is extremely helpful to me. I upgraded to RipmoAF toward the end of the year last year and some things have definitely felt different and not been like I was used to. This really gives me a visual and what to work on for a slacker bike. I will watch a few times. Seeing the comparison side by side is especially helpful
I'm definitely an old school rider evolving to become a modern rider. I'm probably still about 60/40 old school/new. I've gotten better in techy downhill gnar stuff and enjoy being aggressive but i've always been a climber. I enjoy the super long climbs that get me way up to enjoy the downs. Still in search of that "perfect" all rounder hard tail. Hmmmm?
I ride an old school bike...but use the more modern techniques described here. I don't find the bike (a 2011 Trek Superfly) rejecting these more modern techniques at all, in fact I feel faster and more in control. I'm a little confused about what part is the bike/geometry and what part is the evolution of technique. Great video, thanks for demonstrating!
Old school on old school bike have new bike and learned modern ride. Go back to old bike hard to go to old school ride =‘s hard hard washouts over the bars😂. I’m 40 and em still humbled and want the attention for crashing as if I was hitting huge doubles on my old bmx’rs. Still wheelie like crazy and new geo means dirt bike feel @15-20mph wheelies down hill won’t trade for nothing. Well really long rides that’s it. But we are humans and adapt well and you rode what you have.
I’m 5’8 and I ride a 2019 Kona Honzo ST and sized up to a size large. I put on a 2 degree angled headset to slacken it out. After watching your video, I want to try the modern technique of riding it. I need to get the confidence to ride it how you explained on the downhills. Elbows bent, knees bent and chin over the handlebars.
*A few points of clarification:*
1) "Modern" technique could also be called "proper" riding technique, regardless of your bike's geo.
2) I recommend a "modern" technique on all bikes, not just "modern" bikes.
3) "Modern" technique is REQUIRED to ride modern bikes in control. You can't ride a modern bike well with old-school technique.
4) "Old school" technique is possible on old school geo, but modern technique on an old-school geo is even better.
5) Not all "new" bikes are "modern"
6) "Modern" bikes aren't best for everyone or every trail (but modern technique is).
7) What's a "modern" bike by my definition? I'm classifying "modern" hardtails as bikes with a 65* hta or slacker, and reaches longer than 440mm for a size med, or 470 for a size large.
8) Geometry charts only tell part of the story. I've found a few bikes that look perfect on paper, but they don't ride right at all. Nothing beats a test-ride.
Great list.
Steve, this was a very unique subject matter and it drove a point very well for me. I must learn a modern style of riding because i am old school. I have NOT SEEN anyone else explain differences as clearly as you just did... well done. I HOPE TO SEE MANY MORE VIDEOS LIKE THIS. Thanks!!!!
@@gastonuzc Thanks Gaston. I'll keep trying to highlight the differences. There are a lot of online coaches who explain these differences extremely well, but most people don't know about online MTB coaching. I'll do my best to keep creating similar content.
What about a Scott Aspect? Btw, love this channel. I am a new mtb rider with a hardtail.
Great list 👍
This video is AWESOME! I've had this idea for a while, you did a great job explaining the differences.
Thanks Jeff, that means a lot. It was a challenge trying to figure out how to explain/demonstrate it, but I'm proud of how it turned out. A lot of people, especially hardtail riders, have an old school riding style and I wanted to be able to distinguish when doing reviews.
Yes great job!
@@hardtailparty This video was amazing. Im getting my first modern geo full suspension bike soon and im glad I saw this to put me in the right mindset. Otherwise it would have been at least a month of issues before I hopefully figured out the riding position.
@@hardtailparty I have a specialized hardrock 2012, I assume it's a traditional geo, cause of it's quite a steep headtube. I'm quite short though but pick up a size up model making the reach feels actually long but I'm used to it and having fun with it.
Now I'm thinking of buying a more modern bike, I want to change my style first. Mine, I think it's kinda in between but more towards old style, but not super to the back.
Can I do more new style with my hardrock? Sometimes my body just bring the weight back because the back is jumping on the rocky descent section. Should I wait till I got a new bike? Or am I just being to sceptical?
@@cesraihandary it's an old school geo. You can add an angleset or just adapt to how it rides.
I thought Old School technique meant open-face helmet with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth.
Nah. That's middle-old-school. Old school is a doobie and no helmet.
@@abadatha and spandex. because speed.
That was MX
Ah, the 90s.
Some of the vintage tour de france photos are great. riders drinking beer at rest stops, smoking while riding etc
of the 30-40 bike videos i have watched this year, this one BY FAR has given me the most to think about. i almost feel like this should be on a loop in bike stores
I concur this statement
Thank you for breaking this down. Love the side by side shots. Visually this is so helpful.
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Gracias por poner subtitulo en español saludos desde Sinaloa México
@@franciscoiranramosvalenzue5153 De nada. Saludos amigo!
I'm an old... old school rider and notice my bike and I don't perform well when I get lazy and stop attacking the trail and let my body position go back to the old school ways. Thanks for explaining it in a very relatable way.
You're spot on. Fatigue makes us want to relax, and modern bikes don't do so well when we're in a relaxed stance. O notice that a lot on long days. Thanks for bringing this up, it's super important.
@@hardtailparty just engage your core and stay relaxed in the rest.
@@hardtailparty This detail clicked for me as well, all my recent crashes have been when I have been going to a relaxed ride and not pushing it (not in an attack position)
I'd like to see the same comparison on an "old school" bike. If you use the Modern technique on an Old School bike, do you endo and eat dirt?
@@danielmcgowan9534I mean.... that's what I remember about putting too much weight on the bar with a 120mm stem and a 72 deg. head angle. Lotsa endos.
I've been riding old school hardtails for quite some time and just recently got an awesome modern FS All-Mountain from my awesome wife. I was super confused as to how this ultra modern bike felt a lot worse riding it than an old "outdated" hardtail, but watching this video now it REALLY clicks! this makes a TON of sense! thank you so much for explaining this. I will start trying to change my ride style to fit the new bike geometry and get more fun out of it! Cheers from Sweden!
When i started riding, my friends told me to put my butt over the back wheel when descending. A few years later i realized how much this was holding me back. No chance to get around a corner in the steeps if your arms are fully stretched out. I actually learned about modern technique from watching downhill worldcup races. I always try to push the front wheel in to the ground as much as possible now and look for little natural features like roots or rocks in the apex of the corner that i can slam the front tire into so i dont slip. Think of it like a mini berm. When i go riding with friends who are new to the sport the most important advice i give them is to always hover over the bars with an angle in the elbows and knees and drop the heels. After that they usually ride pretty gnarly stuff on their first ride without problems and love it!
This was an excellent read. Thank you.
I'm 45, I started riding again after a nearly decade long trail running break, beacause of my little boy who just started it, he is 4. Yesterday I crashed big time with my new, modern geo hardtail. Now I understand why. Thank you. The oldschool style looks better though. I'm new to this channel, but I love your content man! Rediscovering this world is such a great experience.
Welcome back to the sport. A clinic or coaching session is some of the best money I've ever spent on this sport.
Adjusting to modern bikes is incredibly hard, especially as someone who now is riding on a modern hardtail and who rode (in the 90s and early 2000s) on fully rigid bikes.
Definitely an in-betweener. Have had my "modern" bike for about 7 months now, and keep reminding myself that it's safe (and faster/smoother) to lean forward on the descents.
If you begin to feel unstable on descents the modern style is to get low. Drop your chest towards the bars, lower center of gravity = more stable. Getting low does reduce your range of movement however, that's where the skill is involved in riding, constantly changing position based on the trail. happy spinning
Wow, I love this video. I was riding old-school way with a new-school frame. I gotta try to stop putting my ass waaay baaaack too much. Thanks!
This was a really interesting topic. Over the years I found I'm really uncomfortable on any bike with a long reach. My back and neck prefers a more upright riding position. Your video answered why I've kept my "current" bike (late 90s early 2000 frame). I've ridden friends modern my bikes many times and never felt the urge/need to buy a modern geometry bike. My bikes components have been upgraded and tweaked to the point that only the frame is original (it's a hard tail). I've never felt that my older geometry prevented me from keeping up with a group. I can see where a more modern geometry would be huge in a bike park setting with steep downhills and flying off big features. But as I have zero interest in that kind of riding, I prefer natural trails and no lifts or lines. So, at least for now I'll stay ooold school and upgrade when I have to.
This is spot on. Once I bought a “New geo” bike I did not think to change my technique at all and was washing out constantly. It took a couple of years to figure out why that was, I wish I would have watched some proper tutorials on how to corner by weighting the front wheel. I’m a ton more dialed now but I feel like is the longest journey to master. It’s fun making incremental improvements though! Great Vid, keep it Dialed in!
Awesome vid! I’m in my mid 50s and have been riding Mtn bikes since the earl 80s. Racing bmx before that. I really appreciate you spelling out these differences. And creating awesome video demonstrations. I’ve found myself weighting the front of my older full suspension bike more and more. And now look forward to trying that on a modern hard tail. Great work!
Terrific video! You've nailed it, but I believe for more than just hardtails!
I started riding in the late 90s and remember a bike mag giving tips on climbing and descending. It said that on the real steep stuff that you might even have to rest your chest on your saddle 😂 We’ll to be fair, it did work back then. But now going from a 72 ht angle to a 65, it’s time to adjust my riding style. Thanks for the tips!
well that explains alot
i think my style is mostly oldschool since ive mainly ridden old bikes and always preferred them, ive been trying to ride in a more modern style and been finding it awkward and it didnt occur to me my bikes just arent built to be ridden like that.
id give modern bikes another chance if i could afford one lol
I've always been between a medium and large in most brands and always preferred the large. While I've never had a super slack HTA, I think the longer reach has put me in the middle of the two techniques. The two different descents down that obstacle was eye opening!
I recommend checking reach numbers to determine your size. According to trek, I would be on an XL stache to get the reach measurement I get on a med RSD middle child. So a bike manufacturer's recommendation isn't usually especially helpful.
@@hardtailparty That makes sense. I haven't owned a Stache, but I did own a Farley EX for a little while in an XL and I really enjoyed the feel.
It just means the modern bikes are too long and you're feeling like being stretched on a torture rack. No thanks, I'll take my 465 reach being 6'1.
This video is gold!! Explains allot actually, I ride a Meta V3 and I see what you mean... It's crazy to see the difference. Outstanding 🤘🏾💪🏾🤘🏾
Great content. I’m a total old school rider. We need to get to and do some of this comparison with some of my vintage bikes. I think a lot of folks with with full squish modern bikes have forgotten how to ride an old school bike or never learned so when they do try one they just don’t get it.
Actually since I have my new giant reign 2019 I felt like the old school way of riding didn't fit the bike and was trying to figure out a better riding position. This video is really helpful even if you know what you are doing because you show both ways and the differences
The "new" geometry/technique seems to depend on using a dropper post. Getting low and over the front on rough steeps without a dropper is asking for an endo, and "old" technique developed more because of this then because of bike geometry. On the other hand I find "new" slack and long geometry to be more tiring for longer rides; too much loading on the upper body. For hours long trail rides give me old school geometry every time, and add a dropper post and keep your weight centered in the rough.
There's no doubt droppers have made a huge change in proper riding position.
For my friends and I, in the 90s, we'd ride with our seats all the way down more than all the way up. But the geo still didn't ride like today's geo.
I agree that on longer rides these new bikes can often be tiring, especially if the reach is super long. For my bikepacking bikes, I prefer a slack head angle with a medium reach and a dropper post for that very reason.
I recently put a dropper on my SS Niner Air 9C which has pretty old school geo. It really changed the bike for sure... makes it much more capable.
The dropper post really changed how I cornered too even on a more traditional bike (69 .05 HTA, 79mm trail , 436mm reach in a size large). Being able to lean the bike in underneath you without the seat in the way really lets you steer with the legs. Still doesn't come quite as naturally to me or the bike but its incredible how many subtle differences that one component makes. I like the nuance in this video though, really interested to try out more modern geo someday.
Ha! You've nailed that for me! I've just got back on a bike for the first time since 2009. I've really struggled with corners, berms, hitting steep rock gardens and not constantly losing my front wheel and it's this. So chuffed I watched this.
Opened my eyes a lot, my Trek Roscoe 8 feels like it's always plowing in the corners. Will work on my technique.Thanks!
I thought my Roscoe 8 was just a little lazy.
Well I'm definitively old school when I see your position going down these stairs I feel dizzy :) But when I see the modern cornering technique it feels like agressive carving on skis, I love it. Very interesting to hear that a Honzo or and Chameleon are not considered modern bikes. I ride a 26" wheels cannondale with a long stem over the front wheel, and the 29" with short stems and slacker head tubes all seem modern to me !
Thanks so much for this. After being mostly out of mountain biking for a bunch of years, getting back into it has been a little daunting. Still riding a *steep* (72* head) 10 year old Jamis hardtail, which I thought was great for the technical climbing I like. However, I have never been great on downhill, and have noticed my confidence has been going down the older I get (47). Seeing your explanations and demonstrations of modern geometry has me convinced about going slack and how it would help me a lot towards feeling better on my bike, so I am starting to look into taking the plunge. Modern technology is also showing me the shortcomings of my current bike and how it is probably really holding me back. Thanks, I love your enthusiasm for hardtails and am really glad there is such a following for them still. Cheers.. Alex
I'm still running an old bike (26", frame from early 2010s), so the riding style that suits it is more on the trad side. But I'll be taking note of the points made here. Anyway riding is a continuous learning process. Great video as usual!
For a newer rider like myself this video was fantastic. Simple yet effective. Loved the contrast split screen with the different techniques. Thanks!
Thank you for your good advice and reviews. I am 54 and coming back into the sport. A ‘92 Bontrager (with static fork) was my last new bike. I was considering retiring from trail riding because I was getting so beat up. Because of your review of the specialized fuse I picked up a used ‘21. The geo was was an adjustment, felt completely foreign with the pitched forward position and wide bars. But I find myself centered on the bike as opposed to my butt hanging off the back on my old bike.
Dropper posts are a game changer, truly a safety feature and unlocking the potential of a sloping top tube.
My old Bontrager is collecting dust in the garage. It looks and feels like a clown bike now.
Helps a lot for a new rider. Thanks Steve.
Helps us older riders learn new tricks too.
I bought my first MTB in 1988 and have had many old school bikes over the years. I recently built a new hardtail (first ever bike build) and it really is a whole different world in riding. I built a 2019 Specialized Fuse with Pike fork, Hope Fortus wheels, GX crankset blah blah blah. I feel much more stable and confident than I ever did on my old GT hardtail. After watching this, I realize I was riding my old GT as if it was modern geo. I always felt on the edge of losing it. Of course my new ride has 2.6" 29ers compared to the old 1.9" 26er. Thats a huge difference alone. Then I have always had riding habits from my old bmx freestyle days. Lots of street riding and half pipe back in the 80's.
Thanks for the videos. I just recently discovered your channel. Cheers from Tucson
We need a video on how you cleared that rock feature. What in the blue hell
I'll be creating some mtb technique courses down the road.
Great video! And i don't even ride a bike!
Thats exactly whts happening to me, i got a Marin San Quentin 2 days a go and the very first trail ride i took it into it just felt super odd...
Thank you for the amazing content.
Those bikes feel odd even with modern technique. My advice is to get a set of riser bars for it (at least 40mm rise), that should fix most of the odd feeling. San Quentins have a super low stack and they require you to be more hunched over than ideal. Once you fix the low stack with a riser bar, you can add some modern technique and unlock that bike's potential.
@@hardtailparty thanks for the tips on the San Quentin! I am building one and will adjust my bar plan. 40mm rise sounds odd, but I trust your recommendation.
I'm riding a San Quentin too, and I have the maximum spacers under the stem and my bars are at the same height as my girlfriend's bars with the stem slammed. Maybe I should swap out the stock bars for a higher rise.
@@davidblackman3127 try a 30 Spank Vibracore 800, best one out there, I tried a couple of bars..(hand fatigue also disapears)
Modern geo made me stop riding one of my classic bikes , which is my 1992 KONA Hei Hei that no longer goes in the woods as its now an urban BMX , rail trail queen since about 2015 as I no longer enjoy feeling like i'm going to endo while going downhill. Other than that my old bike is perfect in an urban/city environment as its very light and small.
I've learned a ton from you, Steve. Both your videos and the one ride we did together.
I took my new krampus out last night and I feel like I'm definitely in between these two riding styles. Getting better for sure.
More technique videos please, sir! :)
Some words of wisdom there. You absolutely nailed how modern bikes need to be ridden.
So, how do I recognize if my bike has modern geometry? At which point is it called modern? I think i ride very tradintional and I want to know if I should ride more modern and if my bike would handle this. Thnaks for help
See my first comment at the top of the comments thread.
@@hardtailparty oh damn I overlooked that haha. Thanks, great video btw, really good demonstration, subbed for 👍
This is one of the most useful MTB videos I have EVER seen! You did an amazing job of distilling the content into something anyone can understand. With that said, I now want an olde Skool bike!!
runNride 👍 Tell me why - I want to be able to follow your reasoning!
Great video. I still find myself falling into my old riding habits from the early 90's on my Giant Iguana and Marin Rocky Ridge Hardtails. Haha. About 5-6 years ago when I got my first aggressive modern geo Commencal Meta AM Hardtail it took me a long time to figure out what I was doing wrong. I still feel like I am getting use to the more modern geo but I definitely feel way better than back in the 90's.
I have a 2019 Santa Cruz chameleon and had thought I might of been using "old school technique (just didn't think about what I was doing) but looked at a video today of me going down a super steep decently long decent 30 - 40 feet straight down, and was surprised to see I had my elbows bent and hunched in a bit on the front
Thanks for making this video. I am loving the geometry of my Karate Monkey. My first serious mountain bike upgrade in nearly 30 years..... I do feel like I am learning to ride all over again.
I'm an old school rider (stl refuse to get a dropper post lol) but found your tips very helpful. Love the channel my friend.
You can still adopt a lot of these techniques with your dropper up, it's just a lot harder. Check out Nino's technique. That dude can hipost better than I can ride with a dropper.
I am more old school too, but seriously get a dropper, it's fantastic
Dude don’t be a curmudgeon- get a dropper. It’s the best invention at increasing fun on a mountain bike.
Embrace the dropper - game changer.
I wouldn't know what to do with a dropper...carry on gents. Keep the stoke up!
I just moved from a 2012 Nukeproof Mega to a new Trek Roscoe 9 and it feels like a bit of a runaway train on the steep stuff, so I'm definitely going to try these techniques. Thanks for the video!
For everyone who really want to improve Go to a pumptrack
And remember to keep your pedels leveled. NO one goes one pedel up, one down, especially not on a pump track or on a bmx...
This video explained so much to me! As a cross between an Old School and an UN-schooled MTB rider, I've recently gone from a 90's-ish, 26" wheel bike to a late 2000's 29-er hardtail. O.M.G. - it's been a love-hate relationship these past few months. I knew it was a lot longer as soon as I went to put it in my SUV. It doesn't fit unless I turn the front wheel perpendicular to the floor. It's also taller with those big wheels. I feel like I've gone from riding a pony to a giraffe. Just handling it on the ground is a challenge. Trying to take a tight turn has been downright scary. Still - I do like how stable it feels going downhill over bumps, and it climbs better than anything I've ever owned. Your video gives me a new insight as to what I should be doing with my body as I try to master this behemoth of a bike. I've been riding a few stairs, and was trying to sit way back, Old School style. Now I'm going to practice what you demonstrated here, and I hope to become more comfortable riding chunky downhill stuff. Thank you!
I think I’m a maybe in between. I’ve learned the hard way that modern geo requires forward position when cornering. On the steep stuff like in Sedona though I still have a tendency to get back over the rear tire otherwise I feel like I’m going to otb. After watching this though I’m going to try to be mindful of that and try to get down and more forward. Thanks for sharing!
I put a 29er on the front of my 2016 Levo noticeably increasing the slack. Since then I’ve found I naturally ride in your modern forward style. Good Stuff Steve. You have become a go to guy for MTB riding (and reviews).
Ha! I was going to agree and over comment with this guy’s post but it was me. 😆
Aaaah, how did I miss this one? Yes, this is exactly how I felt going from my XTC to my Blue Pig. The "get back behind the back wheel" descending style is 100% me.
I just found some more or less deserted trails on the way to work, so I'll be practicing these techniques more as we get more daylight. Thanks Steve!
just like magic! it opened my eyes! i'm a bit of old-school but now i love my 66-degree HA Specialized Enduro even more! Thanks! \m/
I actually think the new riding style is more neutral, in the bike per se, even though it is more forward relative to the old, behind the rear wheel style. Great video and great side by side comparisons.
Agreed. It works on older geo bikes too.
Still learning, but would you approach the 2022 Specialized Fuse with the old school/traditional or modern riding style? I imagine it'll be the latter (modern riding) style.
I was an old school, early '90's hard tail rider and didn't know squat about technique (strictly self-taught) but recently, I bought a new hard tail and took it to a 2 day core fundamentals clinic and wow! Before: I couldn't handle switchback turns. Now: with proper technique, much easier. Before: I used to wash out on turns. Now: with proper technique, so much more confident and sticking those turns. Before, I could climb ok, but it was so painful. Now: with proper technique, less painful when climbing and I can go longer uphill. Bottom line: the better one's technique, the better your performance will be on the trail and I dare say, the modern geometry lends itself well to these techniques. Awesome video!
Totally agree! I love hearing stories like this. Sometimes those of us who have been riding the longest need the most help from clinics. It's hands down the best money spent on a bike.
Coming from a BMX background (at the age of 50 now and I still pedal the little bikes). 20". Just came here from a Pipedream bike review!
Thanks for covering this topic. I thought it was just me struggling with new bike geometry, lol ... I've kinda stumbled into how these bikes like to climb, but I never would have figured out the decents. Thanks very much for the demonstrations!
I'm an old dog with old school riding style who recently bought a new bike. Now I'm working on learning some new tricks. Thx
My bike is a 1997 Stumpjumper...so pretty much old school everything. I am considering a new bike since technology has changed so much...but I haven't decided on one.
Really interesting. My main issue with long reach bikes is back ache so I prefer slightly shorter reach, pushing the saddle forward, rolling bars back. But having the front contact patch further in front plus a progressive suspension fork really helps attacking steeps rather than backing off.
I've always ridden more active and over the front...but it wasn't until I bought my FS (Status 160) that it clicked. It's longer, lower and slacker than most bikes out there...I quickly found I had to be more forward, more committed and more aggressive...and man does it work well.
Yes. I see you points. Wheel size too. Smaller frames if you want a more playful bike, toss-able bike. I’m old school, having many , many , 26” wheel size - on medium frames… bikes most would consider to small for me. They always say I belong on a large, but I prefer medium. I’m gearing up for a new, high $$,$$$.$$ bike, and am dithering on large or medium frame size. Dithering because I don’t toss ‘‘em around like I used to. Currently I split my riding between a 26” Epic medium size (old school geo) , and a 29” Jumpy Evo in Large (modern geo). …. Large or medium “modern” is my next ride is the big question. ;)
You did a very good job explaining this, I think many people will need to experience it, to really appreciate the difference. I washed out my front end the first few rides on my new bike. I actually have found that, for me, the climbing position actually took me a few months to adapt my muscles , where I felt like I was able to put out the same power for the same time. It's a interesting transition the industry is making, but I feel like it's one that is for the better. Now if they could just decide on a hub standard, that wouullddd be greeeeattt..
Totally agree, the hub standards are awful.
Thanks! This is very interesting. Went from older geometry to a long, slack and low bike and crashed several times due to the front wheel washing out. “Bad bike”, “Wrong size” and I bought a new one. The same feel with the new one. Now I’m starting to adopt the new riding technique and found an “in between bike” with less extreme geometry (compared to my old ones) and things work out better now. This edit made it even clearer for me !
becoz of this video i regret selling my roscoe8...cuz i thought new bike this day suks...this is a big wake up call for me..🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Where do lines blur between old skool and modern geo…when would a head angle / reach be considered modern vs old?
My Stanton Slackline has a HA of 66.5( sagged )and a 460 reach.
I’d say these are fairly conservative numbers looking at modern bikes, especially aggressive hardtails, but it sure is a lot different to riding my 1990’s 2000’s Kona hardtails.
Steve. Great video. Could you comment on head angle vs reach? I have a 68.5 head angle bike and a 66 one. The reach of the 68.5 is longer and I feel it’s a better all rounder. Is it just me and do you think the reach might be a bigger factor in placing the rider centered ?
I'm a total newb (an aging one at that) and the thought of going over that kind of obstacle with my weight shifted forward like that terrifies me! I know it's the right way to go and it's really just a confidence issue on my part, but I can't seem to help going way back behind my rear tire... I need to stop doing that.
my man! I think I too am using too much of our 90s technique, that we all mid 30s and up learned. I think I have to dig in more into the downer part of these sections! Stoked to be doing this on my upcoming NS Scout Expert with 29" wheels! Definitely following you, until you stop with these videos some day.
Wow! I really needed this and it makes sense. I went from an 2018 trek Marlin (old school) to a 2023 trek roscoe and now it looks I got to relearn my riding style a bit. I already picked up on some techniques but this is gold and explains a lot! I actually sized down on my roscoe and shorten the stem I love how it rides, I guess in the future I could go back with the longer stem for more reach but I think it’s good for now.
Old school rider here on a Trek 7000 w/ Marathon SL fork. Just jumping back in the ring again on trail riding. Still getting it done with current setup. Also looking at possibly getting a new ride. Hard to determine style of riding, it varies depending on the terrain. I enjoy wooded trails with varying climbs and decent. Definitely sticking with hardtail bikes. Just have always enjoyed them from the 80s until now. I still love my '98 frame and '04 fork combo. Still maintain it myself and had fallen away from riding for quite sometime. Some cool local trails have gotten me out there and maybe more as I get used to riding again. Seen more modern bikes, but totally unsure on moving to one just yet. All your videos have been a great source of information.
I've just got a modern aggressive hardtail trail bike, having ridden a 2000 xc bike from new. It feels like being a noob on the bike again😂
I got a 2021 Specialized Fuse Comp. I basically stopped riding in 1996, I might have to try this.
Great video and just subscribed. I relate to the old school riding; I rode in the 90’s 95 Stumpjumper with Judy fork. I just picked up new Specialized Status, slack and long. On the rock section and putting your weight forward, I find myself weighing the front tire to much where it get caught or stuck on rocks. This causes me to be thrown forward almost going over the bars. How do I keep this from happening?
Thank you
Modern, for sure...sold all my traditional geo bikes...replace with new geo...awesome
Great vid. Just bought my first modern geo bike - a Trek Roscoe. First ride out on the trails, I noticed some strange handling up and down some punchy tech stuff. Moved a little forward in my attach position and it was like magic. My old short wheelbase FS 26’er had me doing funny things.
I come from riding freestyle BMX and don't really have anyone else I ride with so my technique has kinda been all over the place. This video really helped. I watched this video a few weeks back, and my mtb I thought was WAY too big for me now feels tolerable standing. The seat tube angle is still way too slack for seated climbing, but that's not as big of an issue on most of the trails I ride.
I went from a 2007 Kona Stinky that was a little small for me (and had a 100+mm stem!) to a 2020 Guerrilla Gravity Trail Pistol, so I've had to adapt, but it's been so much fun, speed doesn't feel as sketchy, the GG is oodles more capable on the climbs, and of course it's also about 7-8 pounds lighter, so that helps too. I'm sure I could still use some riding technique coaching though, as I probably do ride too far back sometimes.
Thanks for the tips! I read a Banshee Paradox V3 after watching your review. I love it!! Off topic. What layer do you wear under your collared club ride shirts. I have a long sleeve and wear just a tank top. Jersey under feels wierd. Thanks
This style works your shoulders and triceps. Have a killer Scott Spark RC that I wasn’t in love with after 5-6 rides. Then I discovered a few videos like this…wow what a difference. I felt in the pocket as a drummer would say, locked in with my bike the other day. Bike felt plush and blasted through stuff much faster than with old school style. Great video.
woah!!!! as an old school 80s racer, everything just changed! thanks
Whouuuuuuu!! I knew u were about to show me something that my mind didnt know about!
Ive been saving up to pick up a hardtail but im an old school rider.
I'm above 40 now but in my head im still that teenager from the 90s who rode down stairs and did all those stunts and climbed uphill better than the average person in india...
And then i see YOU climb up that rock face like that and im blown away.
And shifting your weight onto the handlebars like that, whoa!
I believe i used to try and keep my weight off my bicycle back then to 'protect' it so to speak. But i reckon these new bikes can easily take on heavy weight without breaking.
This video was an eye opener for me.
Watched those slow-moz several times and suddenly realized that time has changed things.
Beautiful engineering!
Thank you for making this video for us!
Really good vid. I think I've been more of a modern style rider on old school bikes. Unfortunately that meant a super long stem with the uncomfortableness of having the front wheel too close. Also always descending hanging over the back wheel. I'm 62 and still riding my Dean Colonel and Scout from mid 1990's. What do you do with a really nice Ti frame when modern geo has moved on? Still like the intimacy to the ground with 26" wheels. I know it's time to change, so..... will have to start the search soon. Ti is still my fave ride, but the prices have gotten ridiculous. Really enjoy your channel. BTW: Love hardtails. Actually I love hard nose too. Wanna learn to ride really well? Hard nose, hard tail. Nice thing about a hard nose is there is no dip in the front end when descending. It also makes you use your upper body very differently. You have to be much stronger to muscle the bike through tough descents. Give it a try some time. I rode for about 15 years before ever having a front fork w/shock. It's a great work out and teaches a lot about bike handling.
Awesome video. Just got my new modern geo bike today (Giant Fathom) after selling my old geo bike (Schwinn Moab) ten years ago. This info is crucial!
Thanks for this, it's a hard habit to break when back in the day getting forward meant Endo-city. I just try to keep my weight on my pedals and let the bike do the work! Kids these days don't know how good they have it! Get off my lawn!!
Haha. So true. My first bike was a 1988 Jamis Dakota fully ridged machine. My first rides were SlickRock, Porcupine Ridge, and Poison Spider Mesa in Moab. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven I had so much fun. I still remember being amazed that a bike could be ridden off road like that. To this day, I haven’t put as many miles on a single bike as I did that Jamis. From Cape Cod to California to Colorado, Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming, I rode that bike everywhere. And I walked to school in the snow!!
This is a great video, and I'm saying that as someone who has been cycling and racing/competing since the mid '90s. My last mountain bike was a '99 Santa Cruz Chameleon, and then I rode trials for many years, and then I did road, and recently I got back into mountain biking in Colorado and have a 2021 27.5 Timberjack GX, which I absolutely love right now. It's important to note that the geometry and components play together and evolve together. If you had told me 20 years ago that my mountain bike would have a 66* head tube and a short stem, I'd ask what you were smoking. But, when that comes together with the rest of the geometry changes plus 27.5"x2.8" wheels that substantially impact stability and performance at speed, the whole thing starts to make sense. I'm amazed at the stability at speed caused by rotating wheels that are far heavier than anything I have ever ridden with, even as a trials rider. These modern bikes, when they go fast, the stability is great. We never had that in the '90s unless you increased the head tube angle and had a long stem. The wheels I used to ride on feel flimsy now.
I'm definitely old school when it comes to steering, but I'm trying to do the newer way. Not really sure how I go down.. probably more center. Only time I'll stretch my bum to the wheel like that is if it's a fast down hill.
I lean over my handle bars for climb because even though I have an old geo( 2000ish marin bobcat) I use 90mm stem with a 34degree backswap handlebar....this makes me pop a wheely if I just stay center/seated.
Old school 1990's, learning the new style on my Mmmbop, soon to arrive....thanks for the training video.
‘Modern” seems close to how I ride my endurance road / gravel bike which is mainly turning and attacking with the entire body steering / shifting weight where needed. Even the corning example is close to how I ride my drop bar; body forward and leaning to compensate. Would this be a fair analysis?
Yikes. I've never heard of getting over the front like this. Every person tells me get my butt back. Mind blown. You looked way less "bucking bronco" with modern technique
This is extremely helpful to me. I upgraded to RipmoAF toward the end of the year last year and some things have definitely felt different and not been like I was used to. This really gives me a visual and what to work on for a slacker bike. I will watch a few times. Seeing the comparison side by side is especially helpful
I have a 26.7 cannondale habit with 27.5 2.5 and 27.5 2 4 wheels for a 5' 10" male weight 200 lbs
Jetsons riding style for me... space bike's the way to go... you go modern...me to...no Flintstone bikes
I'm definitely an old school rider evolving to become a modern rider. I'm probably still about 60/40 old school/new. I've gotten better in techy downhill gnar stuff and enjoy being aggressive but i've always been a climber. I enjoy the super long climbs that get me way up to enjoy the downs. Still in search of that "perfect" all rounder hard tail. Hmmmm?
I ride an old school bike...but use the more modern techniques described here. I don't find the bike (a 2011 Trek Superfly) rejecting these more modern techniques at all, in fact I feel faster and more in control. I'm a little confused about what part is the bike/geometry and what part is the evolution of technique. Great video, thanks for demonstrating!
Old school on old school bike have new bike and learned modern ride. Go back to old bike hard to go to old school ride =‘s hard hard washouts over the bars😂. I’m 40 and em still humbled and want the attention for crashing as if I was hitting huge doubles on my old bmx’rs. Still wheelie like crazy and new geo means dirt bike feel @15-20mph wheelies down hill won’t trade for nothing. Well really long rides that’s it. But we are humans and adapt well and you rode what you have.
I’m 5’8 and I ride a 2019 Kona Honzo ST and sized up to a size large. I put on a 2 degree angled headset to slacken it out. After watching your video, I want to try the modern technique of riding it. I need to get the confidence to ride it how you explained on the downhills. Elbows bent, knees bent and chin over the handlebars.